Week Ending June 6, 1998

Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:36:46 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > i suppose the cones could detect uv but it's much more 
> > likely to be some sorta funky backwards doplet thing.  . 
>  
> Actually, being able to detect UV is not at all strange.  Remember that 
> the rods rely on the photoreactivity of rhodopsin, which has a fairly 
> flat frequency response curve, and may extend well above violet.  Also,  
> the cones don't detect just a single frequency of light: each has a  
> different response curve that centers about one color.  The sensation of  
> color is produced by convolving the three sensory intensities.  There is  
> also a Fourier Transform involved, since the retina detects changes in  
> light intensity, not light intensity.  This is why the eye scans slightly 
 
> from side to side all the time. 
>  
> Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense  
> color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"  
> cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet. 
>  
 
like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*. If we treat light waves 
as non-categorised (as they are) then clearly small areas of  
uv band will be detected in the right conditions. Now add the fact that  
vision perception is based on preconcious 'calculations' and the 
possibilities for  
'virtual uz' based partly on true uv and partly on extrapolated data from  
normal spectra of light and yeah, i guess. . still  sounds a bit urban  
mithy tho. . . 
 
 
 
 
 
> <-------------------------------------------------------> 
> Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>  
>  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:42:12 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,  dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> Dale Ward writes: 
>  
> >      However, according the examiner, there was an "upside".  My upper and 
> > lower range hearing extended well beyond the human norm. 
>  
> Remember, 20hz to 20KHz is an *average* range, not the extreme.  Some 
> people can hear as low as 5-10Hz and as high as 25KHz.  Which is why CD 
> audio sounds clipped to people like that; CD audio is good for 20Hz to 
> 22KHz[1].  The deep bass and high harmonics are lost.  Yes, you and I are 
> "unusual"; but "unusual" does not mean "abnormal". 
 
Also remember that the range varies by age and sex.  Women, as a class,  
hear higher frequencies than men, as a class.  Most people tend to lose  
high-frequency hearing over time, especially if they have been exposed to  
loud noises. 
 
Hearing into the near ultrasonic is not that unusual.  Years ago, there  
was an open house at the Naval Air Development Center, where the  
engineers were demonstrating ultrasound, and both my sisters walked into  
the room and covered their ears -- this caused the engineers some  
consternation, and they set about measuring their hearing.  It trailed  
off around 28KHz, IIRC. 
 
I used to have a major problem with Department Stores that left their  
ultrasonic alarm systems active during the day -- it felt like a stun gun  
going through the door.  This was also in the era when they hired girls  
to come up and spray men with cologne (to many types of which I am  
allergic) and coo about how that scent makes you irresistable.  Shopping  
could be downright dangerous! 
 
Hmmm... Ultrasonic Hearing, 5 points.  Phys Lim: Allergic to Perfumes  
(Infrequent, Slight), 5 points.  Scary, isn't it! 
 
I no longer get the same effect, and I can't hear the multitude of  
(presumably ultrasonic) motion sensors that control the lights in the  
office, so unless they have moved to higher frequencies or to decibel  
ratings below my threshhold of hearing, I have lost the ultrasonic  
hearing, *and* have gained the Age limitation.  Wow!  That's close to the  
fifteen points that were were talking about earlier! 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:48:21 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Thor vs. Captain America 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:17 AM 5/30/1998, Filksinger wrote: 
>No, a science fiction short story, one of my favorite shorts by David 
>Brin, who writes the Uplift stories. Most of his stuff is pretty good 
>reading, especially his later stuff. 
> 
>BTW, the movie "The Postman" was based roughly and badly upon 
>his book of the same name. 
 
   I've neither read the book nor seen the movie, I just got a private 
email from someone who tells me (much to my surprise) that the town in 
which it takes place in Corvallis (where I am)! 
   I'm curious if the landmarks and other features of Corvallis, Oregon 
were used, or if the name was just drawn up by Mr. Brin because it sounded 
interesting (there's a guy in Virginia whose given name is Corvallis, just 
because his father found the name on the map and thought it sounded neat). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:23:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Firelynx16@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 98-05-29 01:45:04 EDT, you write: 
> 
> Reread the example...  The attacker will be able to see (detect) the target 
> through the glass, because the sense (sight) is able to pass through, so the 
> LoS string would also pass through the glass.  Just like it would pass through 
> the opaque wall if your sense was N-Ray.  Remember, it's not a physical 
> string, just an immaterial string that follows the sense(s) being used to 
> target the victim. 
> 
> > By the reasoning below, a mentalist could not attack someone on the other 
> >  side of a windshield or pane of glass because the string would stop short 
> of 
> >  the target on the glass. 
> > 
> >  > 
> >  > The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that 
> >  > the attacker 
> >  > has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
> >  > image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
> >  > detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the 
> >  > sense of smell 
> >  > on a target via a tv screen. 
> >  > Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to 
> >  > represent 
> >  > the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you 
> >  > would connect 
> >  > that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
> >  > attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than 
> >  > the string 
> >  > stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the 
> attacker 
> >  > connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
> >  > established, and the attacker can fire away. 
> >  > If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the 
> >  > string goes from 
> >  > the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for 
> the 
> >  > attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in 
> >  > the tube, and 
> >  > then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
> >  > television station, and then along etc. 
> >  > Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a 
> >  > player wanted to 
> >  > be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but 
> >  > it's going 
> >  > to be messy and expensive. 
> >  > 
> >  > 'Lynx 
> >  > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
 
So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of light, 
correct? 
 
In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly quote).  I 
have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision, not 
Cairasentience.  Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision at the 
CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the transmittling 
the picture from its source to the egoist destination.  That since the egoist 
can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these 
additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken.  In other words 
as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to 
precieve LOS is broken.  Correct? 
 
If so, then this is the point of contention.  I am of the opinion that the 
intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the format 
(and its a targetting sence) they are using, then  they would be able to use their 
powers.  The various translations that the signal goes through passing from your 
eye to your mind is clear proof of this.  The fact that the photons get translated 
back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being reconstructed 
in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is proof of 
this.  Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet it 
tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow format. 
So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:42:26 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
happyelf wrote: 
> 
> > >erm, plus you need to grow a set of cones and rods and stuff. . . 
> > 
> > No, apparantly the 'normal' human retina is capable of seeing into the 
> > ultraviolet. It's just that the cornea blocks UV radiation. Strange but 
> true. 
 
As I understand, it is the lens, not the cornea, that blocks most UV 
light.  If you think about it for a moment, this almost has to be true -- 
cataracts appear to be caused by the cross-chaining of proteins in the 
lens, which is caused by exposure to nearly-ionizing radiation, such as 
UV.  If the cornea blocked UV, the lens would not have this problem. 
 
This is why it is important to wear sunglasses, and why the incidence of 
cataracts is increasing in areas where the ozone layer is thinning. 
People who have had cataracts removed are supposed to be able to see into 
the near UV, and there are stories of the Navy's having employed such 
people as coast watchers during WW2 because of their unusual sensitivity 
to UV.  I have no idea about the lens implants they are now using. 
 
>From a systems-design standpoint, this makes sense.  Constant exposure 
to UV would almost certainly damage the retina.  Accordingly, it makes 
sense for the lens to protect the retina.  The fact that the lens slowly 
clouds is irrelevant, since by the time this happens, other senile 
degradation will also be occuring.  Since the photosensitive chemicals in 
the retina must have a response that falls off gradually with increasing  
frequency, it would not make design sense to have their maximum response  
be at or below the maximum frequency passed by the protective optics. 
 
> 
> i suppose the cones could detect uv but it's much more 
> likely to be some sorta funky backwards doplet thing.  . 
 
Actually, being able to detect UV is not at all strange.  Remember that 
the rods rely on the photoreactivity of rhodopsin, which has a fairly 
flat frequency response curve, and may extend well above violet.  Also,  
the cones don't detect just a single frequency of light: each has a  
different response curve that centers about one color.  The sensation of  
color is produced by convolving the three sensory intensities.  There is  
also a Fourier Transform involved, since the retina detects changes in  
light intensity, not light intensity.  This is why the eye scans slightly  
from side to side all the time. 
 
Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense  
color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"  
cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet. 
 
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:54:15 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> <snip> 
> > Back to mental powers, What's the difference between tagetting a missile through a 
> > cathode ray tube and targetting Mental Powers through a cathode ray tube? 
> 
> The only difference is that the missile and the cathode ray tube are linked together in a system that allows one to precisely guide the other. 
> 
> Mental attacks, like all others (area effect and explosions aside), require that you pinpoint the target. A cathode ray tube does not _normally_ allow you to pinpoint a target with it. 
> 
> If you could walk into a room with the cathode ray tube, look at it, see someone you wanted to attack, and know where that target was well enough to attack him, then you can use an attack on him. 
> 
 
My point exactly.  If the egoist knows the area well enough (ie a place they live/work at) then all the mentalist needs is the picture on the screen to use their powers.  As the level a familiarity drops the negitives skyrocket (exponential rather then geometric growth) very quickly.  So that if it a place the egoist had visted 
once or twice, its better to use Mind Scan on a smaller area then to try and attack the target from their direct knowledge. 
 
> A missile linked to a screen is synchronized with it to allow just this. You see someone in the crosshairs on the screen, and that is all you need to hit him. 
> 
> A mentalist, using such a device, may, if skilled enough, be able to tell from the screen _exactly_ where the target was. This could be ruled to allow a mental attack. 
> 
> A mentalist who walked into Radio Shack and saw a live interview with his enemy on the screen, cannot pinpoint his location. It isn't a targeting sense. Use of any attack, including mental powers, requires a targetting sense. Since TV does not give you enough information _in and of itself_ to do so, then it does not qualify. 
> 
 
Once again this depends on the situation.  If the enemy was standing in front of the door of the office building the egoist worked at there may be enough information.  It the TV interviewer says that they are standing on the corner of 5th and Main, it may give the egoist suffiecient information if they can make an area knowledge 
roll with some appropriate minuses for the situation. 
 
> The missile and screen combination supply sufficient information that it is not even necessary for you to know where the camera is pointed. The missile and screen are linked so as to make the screen and camera a "Targeting Sense". A TV camera doesn't give you this information. 
> 
> Look at it this way. Watch TV until you see a live news broadcast. Now, solely by using the TV, point directly at the _newscaster_, not the image on the screen. 
> 
> You might get his general direction from clues on the screen, but you cannot point directly at him. TV is not _normally_ a Targeting Sense. 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
 
Can do.  When the braodcast was from my kids gradeschool it was no problem (it close to my house and i vistited it regularly.  Broadcasts from the ND football stadium are easy to pinpoint since I've grown up around it.  Broadcasts from Purdue, Wright State and Wright Patterson AFB would also be fairly easy since I've lived and 
worked at all of these locations in the past.  Broadcast from Math Sciences, CS, EE, Heavelon, the CoRec, Memorial Mall and Ross Ade at Purdue would be breeze since I spent so much time in them, but from Agad, Physics and Life Sciences would be more difficult since I hardly ever visited them.  Once again it comes down to how 
well you know the area (a great use of Area Knowledge skills).  In short, there is nothing inherent in TV broadcasts that would prohibit use of Mental Powers, its whether the egoist can gain sufficient information to accurately locate the target. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:14:17 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:34 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> <clip> 
 
 
 
> >Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your 
> eyes :) 
> 
>    Yes, the eyes to make up a targeting sense. 
 
No, Your mind is the targetting sence.  Your eyes are just part of the systems 
that transmits the information to your mind. 
 
> <clip> 
 
>    Ah, and there's the difference!  You're using a map, and calculating 
> angles, not using *solely* the video system!  If one could use the video 
> system as a targeting sense (in the Hero System sense of the term), then 
> the map and calculations would not be necessary; you could just aim and 
> fire.  With the map and calculations, you could still make a fairly 
> accurate shot, but you're still essentially firing blind (again, in terms 
> of Hero mechanics). 
 
I don't have lightning calculator or the trig tables memorized so I need them for 
the exact tragectory for the balistic shell.  The map is needed for calculating 
the distance.  Since Mental Powers are uneffected by either tragectory or 
distance niether of these would be needed for use with mental powers.  Now, given 
that there are no other influences on the bullet after being fired (muzzle 
imperfections, winds, obstiles etc.) then the bullet would hit the target.  Once 
again these types of influences don't effect mental powers, so what is 
prohibiting egoists from useing their powers? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:28:15 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bryant Berggren wrote: 
>  
 
> Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to 
> deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as 
> knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's 
> location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting 
> from a soundstage beneath the ocean. 
 
A couple of years ago, there was a bit of a scandal in ABC News.  There  
was some breaking story, and they wanted Cokie Roberts to read the story  
from in front of the White House.  Unfortunately, she had just gotten  
into evening wear for some event and there was no time for her to change.  
They had a camera in front of the White House, and had Cokie, with a  
trench coat over her gown, stand in front of a color-key screen, so that  
she looked like she was on location.  "This is Cokie Roberts, reporting  
from in front of the White House."  Try targeting a mental power through  
that! 
 
BTW, where did this nonsense about having to buy Targeting for  
Clairsentience come from?  There is no support in the book for this.  To  
quote HSR page 60: 
 
	Clairsentience <stop sign> 
	With this Standard Power, one of a character's senses (usually 
	normal sight) workst at a distance.  It is as if the character 
	were standing some distance away from his current position. 
	* * * 
	A character with Clairsentience should think of the perception 
	point as a spot he can put anywhere within the range of his 
	Clairsentience; he can then see (or hear, smell, etc.) anything 
	near the perception point as if he were standing there himself. 
 
This strikes me as clear.  Clairsentience neither adds nor subtracts  
features, such as Discriminatory, Targeting and Tracking.  Note  
especially that Enhanced Senses are Special Powers, while Clairsentience  
is a Standard Power; Clairsentience is not a sense, it is a power that  
allows senses to be used indirectly. 
 
As such, I would rule that, using a Clairsentience that is fully  
controlled by and familiar to the character, line of sight is computed  
from the viewpoint of the Clairsentience.  For mundane TV, I would rule  
by special effect that the image and knowledge of the location are simply  
not sufficient to allow the targeting of *any* power: whether an Indirect  
power or a Mental Power, or even to hit a hex.  Forget arguments about  
whether one is seeing the target or an image of the target, it is just  
not precise enough. 
 
Now, as I have said previously, if the mentalist practices extensively  
with the security cameras on the team's base, say by hitting his  
teammates with telepathy or the odd 1D6 Ego Attack as they pretend to  
sneak through the corridors, then I would allow this, much as manoeuvres  
practiced in a Danger Room. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:31:03 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John Desmarais writes: 
 
>>A good example of the problem with not explaining where everything comes 
>>from.  Ninja Hero, page 102,  says the Active/3 STR min is for 
>>"non-muscled-powered weapons."  Not that that rule was necessarily 
observed 
>>when FH was written.   
> 
>I was going by the HSR under "Buying Weapons and Armor" pg 204.   However, 
a  
>quick look in the BBB (Deluxe) shows me that Base/3 has been replaced with 
>Active/3.   
>In this case, you would make the STR Min 5 (still only one key away from 
what was >in  
>the FH book, so I still prefer to think of it as a typo instead of 
stupidity on someone's  
>part). 
 
I suppose some of this response it to much more than this message.  But 
it's all part and parcel of the same issue.  I'm not picking on you, 
John--it's just that your response made me realize something: 
 
I'm not communicating very well here!  (If you hear frustration, it's at 
myself.)  No, it's not stupidity--I don't think I even implied that it was. 
 It probably is a typo.  There are going to be some of those.  But it could 
have been presented better, by the simple expedient of showing how each 
thing was built, in groups.  Something like this: 
 
Most melee weapons built this way:  [Explanation, limitations, etc.] 
Flails use this advantage 
Throw weapons use this other advantage 
Darts were built using Base/3, or Active/3, or whatever was used. 
Same way for the other exceptions. 
 
Note that some of the above IS already included.  The rest you either have 
to dig for in other sources (and who knows if they are relevant), or figure 
out for yourself.  If you suspect a typo, you can compare the final result 
to the stated build method.  More importantly, if you want to change 
something, you don't have to "reverse-engineer" the final result. 
 
I should also point out that there have been other situations where a 
"final result" was shown without the explanation for how it was built.  I 
at first thought something was a typo.  But later, I discovered (by various 
means) the actual thinking behind the construct.  "Oh, that's why it's that 
way.  Play balance, " or "I didn't think of that." 
 
Everyone remember those early math classes where you always had to "show 
your work"?  Same principle.  (The only difference is that Hero "work" 
isn't for the teacher, it's for all the GM's.)  Without the work, there is 
no way to distinguish between typos, mistakes, alternate methods, or "I'm 
just missing something"--except, of course, by doing the work yourself. 
 
Showing the work is a separate but connected issue to whether there should 
be more components are not.  You can agree with one and not the other.  
However, "showing the work" takes space.  Futhermore, only designers (GM's, 
interested players, armchair, whatever) care about it.  That supports 
components, because components mean, by definition, putting the design in 
as few spots as possible (preferably just one). 
 
Except for not having 100% of the work shown (not 100% examples, just 100% 
of the work to build whatever examples are present), the weapons list in 
HSR is just right. And the HSR is the appropriate spot to put the work.  
Then when FH comes along, the authors can assume that you have HSR.  So 
instead of showing the work again, they give you a lot more examples.  
However, the dart "work" wasn't shown in HSR, so it should have been 
included. 
 
Let me also say that I, too, think that FH is one of the finest pieces of 
work ever published by Hero Games--and that includes the editing job.  
Believing in a standard or better way is not the same thing as being 
intolerant of any failure.  Lord knows I would never write anything if it 
had to be perfect.  As you guys can see from my responses :-)  
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:31:05 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 10:25 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > 
> >> At 09:52 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >>    It's not a physical difference that makes the difference.  It's a 
> >> logistical difference.   In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the photons 
> >> are coming from the target.  In the case of a television screen, the 
> >> photons are coming from a television screen. 
> > 
> >So the source of the light makes the difference?  Do neon lights, 
> incandescent, 
> >electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental 
> Powers. 
> >Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a 
> television do 
> >they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they 
> produce for 
> >egoists? 
> 
>    No.  Neon lights, incadescent lights, electrical impedence lights, and 
> nuclear light sources do not have minds (at least, as a rule; we are 
> talking about a superhero world, after all), and so cannot be targeted by 
> Mental Powers.  I don't know why anyone would even propose trying such a 
> thing. 
>    However, any living being from which those lights reflect do have minds, 
> and can be targeted. 
> 
 
I'm not talking about targetting them.  I'm talking about the type of light they 
produce and how it effects the targetting of mental powers.  The previous post 
made distinctions about the source of the light and since the light from the 
target is only being relected from another light source, I was showing that this 
type of distinction is baseless since it would exclude other light sources besides 
the television. 
 
> >>    This is done by providing other frames of reference.  In the case of 
> >> missile guidance, that frame of reference is provided by the expert systems 
> >> of the type that you used to write.  The gunner isn't just looking at a 
> >> video screen and shooting out the window, is he?  No, he's not really 
> >> targeting the weapon himself, but telling the computer where to target -- 
> >> otherwise, how does the computer know where it's supposed to hit? 
> > 
> >The expert systems provide no frame of reference, they provide guidence 
> from one 
> >location to another.  In short the computer is flying from point A to 
> point B. 
> >Point B is the location on the HUD that the pilot has selected as the 
> target.  The 
> >missile and the expert system know nothing about what point B is.  Whether 
> its a 
> >giant city eating lizard, a T 80 tank or a crowd of  innocent bystanders,  it 
> >makes no difference to the missile.  It simply goes there and detonates.  The 
> >selection of the target (point B) is done by the gunner on a 2 inch by 2 inch 
> >video disply that is sitting a few inches in front of his eye. 
> 
>    But how does he aim the missile?  Aren't the monitor and aiming system 
> linked together somehow?  Or does he just see the image on the monitor and 
> somehow "know" where that is relative to his weapon, punch in those 
> relative coordinates, and fire? 
 
Depends on the fire control system.  Some let the gunner select with a dot on the 
screen, some use circles or boxes others use crosshairs.  The pilot places the 
targetting mechanism on the chosen target, the system then gathers information to 
obtain lock on (exact postion, distance, and guidence profiles for use by the 
missles sensors).  Once the system has locked on, id has obtained sufficient 
information to calculate a guidence tragectory and correct for movement of the 
target, the pilot is imformed and then s/he decides when to fire the weapon. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:51:08 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>But there is a big difference between claws and weapons.  A dagger is a 
>8-15" bladed weapon.  It does about 1/2d6K damage.  If you make it longer 
>it becomes a different weapon.  Claws on the other hand (snicker), can be 
>attached to a rat or Godzilla.  The base damage for rat claws is (at most) 
>1 pip HKA + strength.  Godzilla's are AoE Line HKAs (+ strength) because 
>his hand is so big.  Now, what else can be said about Claws?  Some have 
>Reduced Penetration.  Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating. 
 
But there isn't a big difference between claws and weapons.  I said 
substitute "claws" for "weapons", not "claws" for "dagger".  Sure, the 
dagger is one example.  A rat's claws are another example.  They are both 
examples of a class of something, which (at least in Hero terms), are 
typically built with a finite set of mechanics. 
 
And you are supporting my argument indirectly.  Until you mentioned it, I 
wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've 
seen AoE used for similar things in the past.  Or maybe it would have 
eventually occurred to me.  Either way, you saved me some time and made my 
theoretical  "claw" write up more interesting and complete. As far as what 
else can be said, here's a few things I've thought of since your 
"challenge": 
 
Retractable vs non-retractable.  If not retractable, can the creature still 
grab things, and at what minus? 
When using reduced penetration, does extra damage from STR apply before or 
after the base power is split?  Or, put another way, to add a damage class 
to a rdcd pen (x2) attack, do you need 5 STR or 10 STR?  I've done it both 
ways, and only gradually came to learn towards the latter.  (Although, that 
whole issues belongs under rdcd pen.) 
 
Then you show how each one is built, and make a simple list, everything 
from rats to Godzilla.  Ideally, you break them up into logical groups. 
 
>Are you just looking for a more complete Bestiary?  That's all that the 
>weapon lists are. 
 
I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a 
beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either.  Once the "Beast Builder" 
is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some 
of the components should move up to a more general book.  What is left 
might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:58:28 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> > > > From: Ross Rannells 
> > > > 
> > > <snip> 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
> > > > > line of sight to that target. 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack. 
> > > 
> > > Mind Scan is a Targeting Sense, and as such does give you "line of sight" to the target. 
> > > 
> > > Filksinger 
> > 
> > Mind scan gives the location of the targetted mind and can them be used to target other 
> > mental powers as well as tells the egoist the relative location of the target.  Where does 
> > it say it gives line of sight on the target? 
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, while it is clearly intended, it isn't quite stated that way. 
> Things which are stated in one part of the book (attacks of various 
> sorts) are also stated to be possible with a "Targeting Sense". Thus, 
> for purposes of attacks in Hero, a "Targeting Sense" gives "LOS", 
> even though there may be no line or sight involved. 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
  So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way.  The way it appears to 
me is that the location of the target needs to be known.  Whether the location is thruough 
seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan).  Either way once the 
location is known, other mental powers may be used.  Under your interpretation, where line of 
sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight.  Then live video feeds would 
not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their powers.  Where as 
in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or line of sight 
will is suffiecient for this.  Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as ruled by the GM) 
would allow for the attack.  The reason I like this interpetation is that it opens up a whole 
new set of complications for the heros to deal with. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:02:40 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote: 
 
> >In a game that is beginning locally, one of the players is considering a 
> >gravity manipulation character.  One of his possible powers is 'density 
> >decrease', where he reduced his weight.  He was considering Shrinking 
> >"Does not reduce height", so he could get the reduced weight, extra KB, 
> >and so on, without getting any shorter.  How else can you buy this effect 
> >without using Shrinking? 
>  
>    The way you mention above is how I'd do it, at least under 4th Edition. 
 
One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The  
amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the  
amount of the density decrease.  Suppose that a 100kg character wants to  
be 25kg with Density Decrease.  Lifting 75kg requires 8 points of STR,  
hence 8" of flight. 
 
8	8" Flight Only to Offset Mass(-1) 
 
This could be placed with other powers, such as Damage Reduction, in a  
Density Decrease EC, or Linked together.  Other GMs might assign a  
larger limitation. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:09:53 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>This is a quote from his site about the spell system: 
>http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh/spells.html 
>>Here's the vast majority of ad&d spells; note that the spells often 
differ 
>>pretty highly from what the original did. I try to preserve the flavor of 
>>the spells where possible...  
 
>Also he did for first ed AD&D.  WotC/TSR does not publish any 1st ed stuff 
>any more.  Also, most of the monsters lack disadvantages.  I only looked 
>through a few of them but the underdark creatures did not have the -1 or 
-2 
>to hit (i.e. -1 OCV) in full daylight.  And that was just a quick glance. 
 
>As I said, hundreds of pages and it would not be balanced in HERO. 
 
I've looked at part of this Dungeon Hero site.  I think the author also 
stated fairly clearly (in the "Preface" I believe) that he did this more to 
prove that it could be done, rather than because he had a burning desire to 
play AD&D using Hero.  One thing he got bang on:  He tried to identify what 
he wanted to keep and what he wanted to "lose" during the conversion.  No 
one in their right mind would attempt to convert something that was exactly 
AD&D.  Just play AD&D, if that's what you want.  He kept levels; I didn't.  
So if I wrote that AD&D convesion book, I'd probably be asking for his help 
in that area. 
 
A conversion book would not and should not attempt to list every spell.  
But it could show how to convert the "flavor" of certain AD&D effects into 
Hero mechanics.  On of the prime examples is saving throws.  Dungeon Hero 
and I both handle these in a similar fashion.  We essentially say that you 
don't need the concept, because Hero mechanics do not have automatic 
results.  A character does not need saving throws, because they already 
have DCV, dodging, etc.  State that with a few examples, and they guy using 
the conversion book knows what to do when he sees a AD&D creature with +2 
on its saving throws.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:24:13 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > > Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
> > 
> > Granted, but does not knowing that the target is in the Oval Office give the egoist's mind scan roll no minuses.  Also it the target was on a survaillance camera and the exact location of the area being viewed was well known to the egoist and its relative location to their location then, by your reasoning, the mind scan would not be necessary. 
> 
> That is something I might allow. However, the mentalist's knowledge of the location, the camera, and their relationship to him would have to be very precise. 
 
agreed. 
 
> 
> 
> Thus, if you know where the Oval Office is in relationship to you, such that you could say, "I will teleport X miles, feet, and inches in Y direction" and expect to end up inside of it at a particular spot, and you knew the inside of the Oval Office precisely enough that looking through the camera would tell you exactly where in the Oval Office, _in relation to you_ that they were, then it _might_ be possible. However, the degree of understanding of the target's location necessary is so precise given the distances and variables involved that I might decide that that ability to integrate all of those together constituted a Power, and require that the mentalist buy the power. 
> 
 
I also agee here, as I stated before.  The expenditure of points in the same fashion as teleporters do to memorize a location would probably be a fair extension of the rules that wuold not be unbalancing or to expensive.  A couple of points for a set locatio and 5 points for a floating one.  Here again it comes down to knowing the location of the targetted mind. 
 
> After all, how many people who are, say, ten miles or more from the Oval Office right now can tell you how many feet it is to the President's chair? That kind of detail surpasses normal Area Knowlege. 
> 
 
Extremely few, but them how many people have Mental Powers :) 
 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not. 
> > > 
> > 
> > So you've never lost you sence of distance when using binoculars?  It is a fairly common thing to do, and most people need a second or two reorient themselvs after use binoculars or telescopes. 
> 
> And thus I might give penalties to a mentalist who used his powers when viewing his target through binoculars. Training, in the form of levels with his power that negated these penalties would allow him to target normally. 
> 
 
I whole heartedly agree. 
 
> > > 
> > > My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense. 
> > 
> > Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your eyes :) 
> 
> Of course. And since my eyes can see the screen, I can target the screen. My eyes cannot see the President, they see a picture of the President. Thus, I can target the picture, but not normally the President. 
> 
 
Again, line of sight versus location of mind.  We may have to agree to disagree on this one. 
 
> <snip> 
> > 
> > Niether the camera nor the missile are doing the targetting it the pilot that is doing the targetting.  The camera is giving him a group of targets to shoot at.  The pilot selects a target and then targets the missile.  The computer then does its best to hit the targetted location. 
> 
> True. You are confusing the military definition of targeting and the definition as used with Targeting Sense in Hero. In Hero, in order to aim a weapon, you need a Targeting Sense, which allows you to aim a weapon based upon the information given. The camera, with its precise relationship to the military man using it, can qualify because of training and the precision involved. Thus, he could possibly, probably with negatives, aim a mental sense with that camera, just as he could look at the camera, lean out the door, and without looking at anything but the video monitor, shoot someone he sees in the monitor with a pistol, but with difficulty (i.e. negatives). 
> 
 
Agreed.  I've never said there wouldn't be negitives or training involved in using Mantal Powers through a video feed.  What I've been saying is that there is nothing to inherently prohibit a mentalist from using a CRT to assist them in locating a target. 
 
> The system as a whole, camera, monitor, missile, and _computer linking them_, is a Targeting Sense _for the missle_, and thus allows the equvallent of LOS for that missile. The knowledge of the user, the camera, the monitor, and the knowlege of the precise relationship of the camera to the user could allow, with negatives, that Targeting Sense to be used with other weapons. 
> 
> > > If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Given a calculator, map and mussle volicity to accelerant equation, I could do calculate the angles and amount of acceleratn necessary for such a shot.  It's very basic trig.  Given time to prepare set knowns ahead of time and a programmable calculator the shot could be set up in less then a minute.  Of course the advantage of Ego powers is no tragetory knowledge is needed just the relative location of the target. 
> 
> So, if you walked into a video store, saw Charlton Heston in a live interview on the TV, you could work out a precise tragectory to him using a calculator, a map, detailed knowledge of your weapon, and the proper equations? Interesting. I, in the same situation, wouldn't be able to tell you what continent he was on for certain, and definitely couldn't tell you where he was on a map. 
 
What if he was standing in front of the washington monument.  The applicablity is in the details of the situation. 
 
> 
> 
> Given sufficient information, you might convince me to allow mental powers through a TV camera. However, you would have to prove that you could, given the information you have, locate the target with precision enough to shoot them, with a weapon no more linked to the camera than your head is. 
> 
 
I agree, I never said it was probable just that it's not inpossible.  You might want to say that you would need an AK of 19 of the area and then roll a 10 or less to get sufficient information to make the attack.  In such a situation it comes down to getting sufficient information to make the attack.  The camera is not prohibiting you from making the attack though. 
 
> Of course, if your head _is_ plugged into the camera, all bets are off. That, however, would require you buy powers to simulate this ability. 
 
Of course, spending sufficient points to get the special effect needed is always a possiblity.  That's the buety of the Hero System. 
 
> 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:35:47 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
>snip lots of stuff I completely agree with< 
>   Trying to list literally "all possible claws," though, would be 
roughtly 
>equivalent to trying to list "all possible combinations of HKA with 
>Advantages and Limitations." 
>   Stephen and Dave, does this sound about right to you guys? 
 
Well "all possible claws" is Joe's phrase, not mine :-)  But I do agree 
that 100% is not possible.  I'm probably extreme, in that I think even 
Dave's rough 90% is a little low, but that's because I have a different 
perspective on it.   
 
There are actually two "alls" to talk about.  "All possible", which is 
everything and anything ever devised in Hero, by anyone, past, present, or 
future.  I dont' think you can do even 25% of these, because Hero is a 
living, growing (thus ever changing) entity.  I wouldn't presume to say 
what it will look like in 25 years. 
 
Then there is the "All reasonably possible", which is something like:  Take 
what we know now, pull out the components into their own sections, always 
keeping in mind the limits of book space, editor and writer time, etc.  
What percentage you get here depends on the people working on it and the 
time they have. 
 
There is a very real sense in which you cannot do components until someone 
(or usually a lot of someones) has struggled through with full-fledged 
examples.  Obviously, now that we have the Bestiary, it would be easier to 
identify what occurs a lot (e.g. claws) and what occurs rarely (e.g. 
vampiric drains).  So next addition, the editor and writers pull out all 
the obvious components, try to make educated guesses on the rest, and time 
permitting, even add a few ones to fill in logical gaps.  With all that 
settled, the whole Hero crowd will quit wasting time building claws and the 
like.  Instead, they will design new things that no one has thought of yet. 
 Some of these will be new components or changes to components--which the 
editor and author will again have to incorporate in the subsequent 
editions--or preferably, subsequent add-on books. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10 
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:49:25 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I wrote: 
>a very large list of predefined superpowers (which should cover  
>about 90% of character conceptions). 
 
Joe M wrote: 
>90%?  Really?  How about Ice Man?  Multiple Man? A guy who can  
>teleport anywhere in the world instantly?  A guy who can create large  
>amounts of water?  A man whose arms are actually demons he can  
>unleash leaving him quadriplegic (a Marvel villain)? 
 
Ice Man: Yes 
Multiple Man: Yes 
Teleport Anywhere Man: Yes 
Water Man: Yes 
Demon Arm Man: Sort of, depends on exactly what he can do. Maybe the 
Anatomical Separation powers; maybe Alter Ego(s); maybe Gestalt Body; 
maybe Body of Demon; maybe a combination thereof... 
 
>When you say 90%, does that mean 90% of all concepts currently in  
>superhero comics?  I tend to doubt it.  I think you can achieve 75%  
>and still make a readable book. 
 
Not 90% of finished concepts, no. But 80 - 90% of the pieces will be 
there. For example, there won't be a listing for Superman or Batman, but 
you can find the pieces to build a flying boy scout brick with laser 
beam eyes, or a martial artist detective with a utility belt and other 
gadgets. 
 
>Second, Hero Plus is not exactly easy to flip through.  
 
I agree, but, as Hero Games says, if it's a choice of published on Hero 
Plus or not published at all, at least with Hero Plus, they have a 
chance to get the material out to some people. And who knows, if I'm 
extremely fortunate and this becomes the 5th edition superhero genre 
book, it might see print after all... 
 
Joe M wrote:  
>Claws can be attached to a rat or Godzilla.  The base damage for rat  
>claws is (at most) 1 pip HKA + strength.  Godzilla's are AoE Line  
>HKAs (+ strength) because his hand is so big.  Some have Reduced  
>Penetration.  Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating. 
 
Yes, but what if there were a discussion of the types of claws, and what 
each type does, and how each type is modeled in game terms, and why 
those particular models were chosen, and how to extend or modify the 
types, and what you can expect if you do, etc... 
 
For a limited (but long) example of what I'm talking about, you can 
check out my Size and Density Powers article at 
http://www/haymaker.org/haym15.html -- it covers at least half of the 
possibilities available with those powers. This is the kind of thing I'd 
like to do with all powers. 
 
Bob G wrote: 
>I don't think "all possible X" could ever be done; but a *reasonable 
>range* of claws, wings, bites, etc., certainly could be -- that is, 
those 
>that are *likely* to be used by creatures owned or encountered by PCs 
>in any given genre.  If a creature has claws with some unusual  
>property, then these can be modified. 
 
Yes, that's pretty much what I was hoping for with superpowers. 
 
>A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under the 
>5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice, 
>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's. If 
it's 
>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though  
>none spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the 
table 
>should list that. The whole table would probably be no bigger than the  
>list of swords in TUMA.  A creature whose claws have some unusual  
>property would simply have its claws detailed out. 
 
Since claws are also a superpower, I plan to do a section on them in The 
Ultimate Superhero. 
 
As I picture it (and this is off the top of my head, not with the amount 
of notes and thought that I'd like to put into it), there will be a 
discussion of hand claws, foot claws, tail claws, face claws (horns), 
and miscellaneous claws. Claws that are permanent, retractable, 
throwable/launchable, claws that are natural and artificial, small to 
medium to large to extra large claws, poison claws, claws that attack as 
a group or separately, and probably lots more. 
 
There will be a table of various claws (similar to the weapon charts), 
as well as a sentence or three about each listing -- discussing what 
makes them different from others, a listing of how to adapt them to 
other types of claws, to change their size, their effectiveness, etc. 
 
And in the beginning of the section, there will be discussions about how 
to modify existing entries, combine them with others, adapt them to 
different scales, etc. so that hopefully, even newbies will be able to 
create a complete character very quickly. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:08:23 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:12 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   For instance, a player with TUMA could tell his GM, "I want my mech to 
>have a Shoulder Cannon II," the GM could look that up in his copy of TUMA, 
>okay it, and the player would only have to write in "Shoulder Cannon II" on 
>his mech's sheet for 19 points (58 active).  Or, if the GM prefers, he 
>could write it out to, "4d6 RKA, -1 OCV, +2 Range Mod, 8 charges, Vehicular 
>OIF, 60 degree arc of fire."  If he's using HeroMaker (or, in the hopefully 
>near future, Creation Workshop with Hero Creator) and bought the on-disk 
>version of TUMA, he could just pull the Shoulder Cannon II from the file of 
>"Slug Throwers - Mounted." 
 
There are shoulder cannons in TUMA?  I have Ninja Hero and thought TUMA was 
just an update.  But, be that as it may... 
 
Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc.  This is why I'm having a 
problem with it.  Claws depend on the size of the creature using them. 
There is not a lot of variation in claws.  How does a list of mouse to 
dragon claws really help?  I don't see it.  What value does this have? 
 
House cat	1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength)	5/4 
Dog/Coyote	1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength)	10/8 
Tiger		1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength)	15/12 
Gargoyle	1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength)	15 
Bear 		1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength)	25/20 
Dragon		2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength)	50/40 
Godzilla	2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength) 	60 
 
>   On the other hand, the player could also say, "I want my mech to have a 
>weapon like the Shoulder Cannon II, but Armor Piercing," then he still 
>could; the weapon would just do 2-1/2d6 RKA AP instead of a straight 4d6 RKA. 
 
Okay, but nothing about this list tells you to reduce the 4D6 to 2.5D6. 
You have to know the system just as well to make that should cannon as to 
make one from scratch, IMHO. 
 
>   Similarly, the lists of swords in FH, NH, TUMA, and other books help 
>give a standardized idea of what a given sword should be able to do. 
 
Now this is a good reason for a paragraph not a list.  I think the list 
would be boring since natural weaponry will not have as much variation as 
the sword lists. 
 
>   I agree with the other guys that a similar standard should be set for 
>claws.  A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under 
>the 5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice, 
>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's.  If it's 
>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though none 
>spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the table should 
>list that.  The whole table would probably be no bigger than the list of 
>swords in TUMA.  A creature whose claws have some unusual property would 
>simply have its claws detailed out. 
 
Okay.  Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble 
with.  The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two 
paragraphs of text.  Poison would be its own section. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:51:43 -0400 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:49 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Joe M wrote:  
>>Claws can be attached to a rat or Godzilla.  The base damage for rat  
>>claws is (at most) 1 pip HKA + strength.  Godzilla's are AoE Line  
>>HKAs (+ strength) because his hand is so big.  Some have Reduced  
>>Penetration.  Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating. 
> 
>Yes, but what if there were a discussion of the types of claws, and what 
>each type does, and how each type is modeled in game terms, and why 
>those particular models were chosen, and how to extend or modify the 
>types, and what you can expect if you do, etc... 
 
What are you talking about?  There's HKA.  Maybe there's HA or raw STR but 
there are not any other base powers that convey Claw.  Remember poison and 
other weird effects are part of a different section.  How much discussion 
would there be? 
 
>For a limited (but long) example of what I'm talking about, you can 
>check out my Size and Density Powers article at 
>http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html -- it covers at least half of the 
>possibilities available with those powers. This is the kind of thing I'd 
>like to do with all powers. 
 
Limited??  Maybe.  But Size and Density is a lot more diverse than Claws. 
The number of fingers, the curvature, the flexibility, etc of the claw is 
not relevant to how the power is purchased.  
 
>And in the beginning of the section, there will be discussions about how 
>to modify existing entries, combine them with others, adapt them to 
>different scales, etc. so that hopefully, even newbies will be able to 
>create a complete character very quickly. 
 
Well, I'm still skeptical about this.  The February archetype discussion 
seems so long ago.  But, good luck. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:53:52 -0400 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:51 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>>But there is a big difference between claws and weapons.  A dagger is a 
>>8-15" bladed weapon.  It does about 1/2d6K damage.  If you make it longer 
>>it becomes a different weapon.  Claws on the other hand (snicker), can be 
>>attached to a rat or Godzilla.  The base damage for rat claws is (at most) 
>>1 pip HKA + strength.  Godzilla's are AoE Line HKAs (+ strength) because 
>>his hand is so big.  Now, what else can be said about Claws?  Some have 
>>Reduced Penetration.  Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating. 
> 
>But there isn't a big difference between claws and weapons.  I said 
>substitute "claws" for "weapons", not "claws" for "dagger".  Sure, the 
>dagger is one example.  A rat's claws are another example.  They are both 
>examples of a class of something, which (at least in Hero terms), are 
>typically built with a finite set of mechanics. 
 
Claws have no STR min.  They never "Can be thrown".  You don't put +1/-1 
OCV on the Claws you give them to the creature.  They are not handed.  They 
are not OAF, Independent or anything else like that.  Claws are DCs of HKA. 
 Most of them are Red. Pen., very few of them are Increased STUN Multiple, 
Armor Piercing or Penetrating.  That's about it. 
 
The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would have 
3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post). 
 
>And you are supporting my argument indirectly.  Until you mentioned it, I 
>wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've 
>seen AoE used for similar things in the past.  Or maybe it would have 
>eventually occurred to me.  Either way, you saved me some time and made my 
>theoretical  "claw" write up more interesting and complete. 
 
That's why I said you would leave things out when I made the challenge. :-) 
 But that is an example.  You would only include it in dinosaurs and 
Godzilla.  Even dragons are too small for line attack claws. 
 
>Retractable vs non-retractable.  If not retractable, can the creature still 
>grab things, and at what minus? 
 
Dagger does not have "can be put down".  In any event, that is not part of 
the claws, that is part of the creature.  It would be a Phys Lim.  At best 
it isn't even a Phys Lim and is just a Special Effect. 
 
>When using reduced penetration, does extra damage from STR apply before or 
>after the base power is split?  Or, put another way, to add a damage class 
>to a rdcd pen (x2) attack, do you need 5 STR or 10 STR?  I've done it both 
>ways, and only gradually came to learn towards the latter.  (Although, that 
>whole issues belongs under rdcd pen.) 
 
Yes, it does belong under Red. Pen.  DCs are affected by STR.  You add the 
DCs first.  Roll the dice.  The body caused is divided by two and applied 
to the target's defenses twice.  Reread Red. Pen.  There really is no doubt 
about this. 
 
>I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a 
>beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either.  Once the "Beast Builder" 
>is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some 
>of the components should move up to a more general book.  What is left 
>might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.   
 
I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very 
long on examples of complete creatures.  Of course, that would be a more 
late-90s name for the Beastiary. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:54:00 -0400 
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net, Firelynx16@aol.com 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:23 AM 5/30/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly 
quote).  I 
>have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision, not 
>Cairasentience.  Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic 
vision at the 
>CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the 
transmittling 
>the picture from its source to the egoist destination. 
 
I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread, but I think the 
others are calling the TV: Images.  Not Clairsentience UBO, not Telescopic 
vision UBO.  That's why LOS is not possible through an ordinary TV. 
 
If the egoist pays points for a monitor system with clairsentience or Mind 
Scan, then, and only then, can the mentalist use it for targetting. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10 
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:12:29 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe M wrote:  
>There's HKA.  Maybe there's HA or raw STR but there are not any  
>other base powers that convey Claw.  Remember poison and other  
>weird effects are part of a different section.  How much discussion 
>would there be? 
 
Poison would indeed be in a separate section, but poisons can need to be 
ingested, injected, breathed, etc. and will have a wide variety of 
effects. The part about poisons that would be relevant to claws, though, 
might need to be discussed. 
 
For example, if a claw does deliver a poison, is it all the time or part 
of the time. If it's part of the time, is it voluntary? Does it run out? 
Does the claw only deliver poison, or can it damage on its own? Does the 
claw need to draw blood for the poison to work, or does it just have to 
touch the skin? Is the attacker immune to it or not? etc. 
 
>The number of fingers, the curvature, the flexibility, etc of the  
>claw is not relevant to how the power is purchased.  
 
In a bestiary of normal animals, probably not. But fantastic animals or 
superheroes open the doors a lot wider. If a newbie player wants 
Wolverine claws on his Iron Man costume, he can look to the claw section 
and look for artificial metallic retractable claws and scale it 
appropriate to the material he wants. 
 
>Claws have no STR min.  They never "Can be thrown".  ... 
 
What about quills (a kind of full-body claw...)? Also, ever see 
Thundercats? Liono could throw his claws. Just about every claw rule you 
listed can be broken. By handling the types of things that claws can and 
cannot do, and giving enough components, the reader can pick or create 
an appropriate claw. 
 
>The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would  
>have 3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post). 
 
and a column for charges, and range, and a sample creature, and unusual 
notes, and maybe something else or two. 
 
>Dagger does not have "can be put down".  In any event, that is not part 
 
>of the claws, that is part of the creature.   
 
Normal creatures, yes. Superheroes, no. 
 
>But, good luck. 
 
Thanks. It's quite an ambitious project. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.airmail.net from ghoyle1@airmail.net server @mail.airmail.net ip 206.66.12.40 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:17:53 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id SAA01495 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>At 11:45 AM 5/29/1998 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
>>Is Mastermind a time-traveller from another timeline still? Dunno. I had 
>in mind that he wasn't, but it could be interesting. It could open up the 
>whole campaign to time-travellers from still other timelines, trying to 
>change their own futures. Might be a can 
>> of worms I don't want to open. 
> 
>   It might also be a reasonably logical -- and remarkably consistent -- 
>way of introducing any new PCs into the campaign.  They're simply 
>introduced in a storyline in which they must prevent some past event which 
>leads to the dark future from which they come. 
 
The problem with time travel as a regular event is that it would probably tend to take over the campaign as a whole.  By making their method of time travel dependant on some kind of projector from the future (which, of course, does not exist after they have changed history), time travel is less likely to dominate the campaign.  However, getting new PCs from the same future might not be too tough; maybe the PCs have been preceded by other, failed groups of operatives.   
     Even after they've defeated Mastermind, however, they'll still have to watch out for other events which could lead to their future. Perhaps someone arises to take Mastermind's place in history.  I remember a Time Patrol story (Poul Anderson) where the TP encountered a changed timeline that they traced back to one individual; they set him back on what they thought was the correct course of history, and encountered a new alternate timeline; they changed it again, and encountered a THIRD alternate timeline... Time travel is a big can o' worms to open. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Sat, 30 May 98 20:38:30  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 29 May 1998 21:40:30 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>qts writes 
>>>qts writes 
>>>><snip> I would suggest that the 
>>>>person who is interested in Hero is wanting to move on from another RPG 
>>>>system. I have great difficulty in envisaging anyone taking up Hero 
>>>>'cold'. 
>>> 
>>>My most recent count shows 50+ players in my FH campaigns since 1992.  
>Only 
>>>2 had previous Hero experience, and about half had previous role-playing 
>>>experience.   
> 
>>Yes, and how many of those GMed first time? How many of the others had 
>>their characters designed for them? Perhaps I should have been more 
>>precise. 
> 
>>> These are people who really appreciate 
>>>Hero and want to get into more.  A bunch have bought the rules after 
>>>playing in my games. 
> 
>>This is usually what happens in my games. 
> 
>Maybe we are talking past each other.  We seem to both agree that Hero as 
>it stands now is not for the beginner. 
 
Yes, 
 
> I gather that you think that is an 
>inevitable consequence of Hero's great flexibility. 
 
Yes, with one important caveat - see below. 
 
>  I argue that Hero 
>could change to accommodate beginners (and other's turned off by its 
>CURRENT complexity). 
 
I accept the theoretical; I dispute the practical. No rules changes are 
needed, no reduction in complexity, just clarifications and examples. 
 
>  If this paragraph is wrong, please correct me.  OTOH, 
>if I've got it right, tell me why you think Hero must remain too 
>complicated for the beginner. 
 
The nub of the problem, IMO, is that so many examples would be needed  
- examples (note plural) for *each* Power, Advantage, Limitation, and 
many examples for frameworks, sample characters, sample FH spells, 
extensive discussions of Drains etc - that the size of the book would 
be prohibitive. I have suggested putting the bulk on CD. 
 
Further, the quality of the book would have to vastly improve. 
 
Even then, a beginner is going to be daunted: they just want to start 
playing ASAP, which is easy with AD&D, but not Hero. 
 
It's a marketting problem, not a rules problem. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:56:10 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Bye, y'all. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I've come to the conclusion that the Champs list isn't really worth my time 
and energy anymore, as I'm deleting something like 95% of the traffic 
without reading all the way through it. I've lost interest and I feel the 
list has lost whatever it's had in the last two years. So I'm unsubscribing. 
Thanks to all the people who actually did make this a fun place to be for so 
long - I hope the 5th Edition will breathe new life into the list; I'll 
probably check back when it comes out. 
 
Goodbye, 
 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:30:29 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Dave Mattingly writes: 
>As I picture it (and this is off the top of my head, not with the amount 
>of notes and thought that I'd like to put into it), there will be a 
>discussion of hand claws, foot claws, tail claws, face claws (horns), 
>and miscellaneous claws. Claws that are permanent, retractable, 
>throwable/launchable, claws that are natural and artificial, small to 
>medium to large to extra large claws, poison claws, claws that attack as 
>a group or separately, and probably lots more. 
 
I'd tend to make horns a different entry, or at least a distinct section.  
To me, it's the same issue as "bites."  Somewhere in this whole discussion, 
I realized that what I was thinking of as "bites", was actually different 
sections on "teeth" and "beaks".  I haven't explored this fully enough to 
be sure, but I have the feeling that components should always be something 
you could put your hands on (at least in a literary sense--i.e. nouns, not 
verbified nouns like "bite").  So all these creature attacks might have a 
lot of cross-reference.  "To see how to build these horns, see claws, 
permanent." 
 
Poison is a separate component altogether, because it can be used 
independently of claws. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:46:39 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
        Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me.  I'm  
just behind the times on e-mail.  Then again, ain't I always saying this  
when I do send out some e-mail?  Oh well, here is my question for the month  
concerning Champions.  Want to build a character who steps into a teleport  
disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super  
power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe  
for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this  
would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking  
when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo news.mobis.com from easleyap@mobis.com server @news.mobis.com ip 207.201.202.4 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:01:23 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>Granted, that's not many powers, but they are powers... 
 
I personally have sound and smell images as natural powers.  :-) 
 
 
 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:04:16 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> <snip> 
> > Line of Soght is not the only way to attack with mental powers.  It's line of 
> > sight or a successful Mind Scan, which as someone else stated previously, points 
> > to being able to locate the mind of the target.  In HSR  on page 55 it states that 
> > Mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers and goes on to give the 
> > N-Ray vision example.  So please explain how a TV is a barrier that you cannot use 
> > mental powers through.  There are plenty of legends and SF stories where Telepathy 
> > us used through crystal balls, is that not analigous to Mental Powers through a 
> > cathode ray tube. 
> 
> A couple of reasons, actually. 
> 
> 1. You didn't buy Clairvoyance for the television system. It already 
> exists, and has certain features that limit it, such as your inability to 
> precisely locate the camera in relation to you. If you were to buy 
> Clairvoyance (SFX Closed circuit camera), you might choose to take 
> such limitations, or choose to spend the points needed to bypass the 
> limitations. Either way, as you didn't buy the television network as a 
> Power, you must buy a full Power to use it in a fashion thatbypasses 
> its limitations. 
> 
 
I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence.  It's telescopic vision, with 
usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and a large area 
of effect.  So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through binoculars 
and not through a CRT? 
 
> 2. It may require special powers to use Clairvoyance in this fashion. 
> Thus, the ability to do this may cost more points than just Clairvoyance. 
> 
> There is some precident to using Clairvoyance to target Mental 
> powers, however. The Mystic Masters book mentions this as a way to 
> design astral bodies for super sorcerers, and indicates that you can 
> use mental powers. Keep in mind that Clairvoyance is visible, 
> however, and your target would know he was being watched unless 
> you bought IPE. 
> 
> Regardless, the lack of knowledge as to precisely where a TV 
> camera is in relation to you negates this possibility over a TV. A 
> character who actually bought Clairvoyance knows where the view is 
> in relation to him, as he declares where he wants to look in order to 
> see through it. Television does not tell you where the target is, 
> normally. 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
 
Once again it depends on the situation.  The negitives applied to the power may make the 
possiblity of success extremely improbable, it does not mean it can;g be done. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:08:58 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
John Lansford wrote: 
 
> >They can do that anyway, if the HQ is tall enough. As can anybody 
> >with a No Range Mod attack, for that matter. 
> 
> Within the range of their power. There's no range limitation if you 
> allow someone to attack through their television screen. 
> 
> John Lansford 
> 
> http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/ 
 
Then what is the range limit on the use of mental powers when used in 
conjuntions with mind scan? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo news.mobis.com from easleyap@mobis.com server @news.mobis.com ip 207.201.202.4 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:30:47 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ross Rannells wrote: 
 
>I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence.  It's telescopic 
vision, with 
>usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and 
a large area 
>of effect.  So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through 
binoculars 
>and not through a CRT? 
 
 
The above will not properly duplicate a television.  TV allows me to see 
into places that no amount of telescopic vision will allow.  To function 
even close to TV you would also need Telescopic Hearing, and N-Ray bought on 
both your normal sight and normal hearing.  This would still not totally 
duplicate TV.  You haven't changed your perspective on the event.  To do 
that would require buying Indirect on your sight and hearing and the proper 
way to do that is through Clairsentience. 
 
Alan 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from asmodeus@shell.ezy.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:45:08 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
The most simple way to do this is to make it a time based 
extra-dimensional movement with the special effect only into the future 
unless the character can heal during the interval between when he leaves 
and then reappears. 
 
It "could" be purchased as follows: 
 
E-D Movement always forward 1 turn into the future 40 active points(20 for 
ED movement and +20 for time travel) 
 
If he can vary the span of time he jumps within a range of lets say upp to 
one minute(GM must make a call on what he feels is a reasonable limit for  
10 acive points): 
 
E-D Movement 40 active points +10 into the future limited to 1 minute 
maximum. 
 
About the healing capability, you could just have him use the power twice 
to a specific dimension and then back after a predeclared time-frame. 
 
This power would be the cheapest, but GMs would probably not like this 
power in the game.(really easy to abuse this one and get away from all 
sorts of death traps) 
 
E-D Movement 20 active points to ONE specific dimesion that would sustain 
human life. 
 
- David Majors 
 
On Sat, 30 May 1998, Sparx wrote: 
 
>         Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me.  I'm  
> just behind the times on e-mail.  Then again, ain't I always saying this  
> when I do send out some e-mail?  Oh well, here is my question for the month  
> concerning Champions.  Want to build a character who steps into a teleport  
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super  
> power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe  
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this  
> would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking  
> when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
>  
>  
> Sparx 
>  
> ================================================================== 
> 3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
> alternate dimesions. 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
> Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
>  
>  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu from epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu server @cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu ip 128.173.43.251 
From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@acm.vt.edu> 
Subject: Renton GM? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:35:21 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sorry for the intrusion everyone, but there was a Champs GM in  
Renton, MD, whom I was Emailing with a few weeks ago, and I  
managed to accidentaly delete all mail from him and I forgot his 
name.  If you're still here, could you Email me again?  Thanks. 
 
   Eric 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-3.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.133 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:10:54 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: House Rules 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id XAA12591 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Oh, another house-rules related oddity I've encountered (usually at 
> convention games) - people who don't realize that they've been using 
> modified rules.  I met many players who never really read the rules 
> (to whatever game was in questions at the time) carefully, just 
> learned from a GM who had his own set of house rules.  What a disaster 
> con-games were, with folks who didn't know the rules but were 
> convinced they did. 
 
A very good point, and one I had never considered. Now that I think about 
it, there have been lots of times at cons that I've run into players who 
had some off-the-wall (to me) idea about the way the rules worked, and I 
would find myself thinking, "How in the world does he get THIS (his 
interpretation) from THAT (the rule book)?!" In retrospect, I think I see 
what was happening. 
 
On a related note, my current GM has rewritten large portions of the rules, 
even going so far as to rename "his" system. His skill system is so 
convoluted that it's impossible for any of the current players to create a 
character without the GM's direct oversight. I've been playing Hero since 
the 2nd edition, but some of the players are new to the game, and now I'm 
wondering what will happen if and when some of them move on to other Hero 
games campaigns. 
 
"Comeliness -- what's that? And what do you mean there's no such thing as a 
Mass stat?!" 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vector.wantree.com.au from gazza@wantree.com.au server root@vector.wantree.com.au ip 203.63.10.1 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:30:26 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> GAZZA  writes: 
>  
> > In fact, there is the option in heroic games to have extra Running 
> > increase the leaping distance. 
>  
> It is not an option for heroic games, it is a standard rule for all  
> games. Half your (current) running velocity adds to your leap  
> distance. 
 
Lies! Damn Lies! :-) 
 
The ONLY reference I can find ANYWHERE in the BBB that says 
you can add half your running to leaping is on page 172 under 
"Jumping". 
 
The relevant quote is: 
 
"In HEROIC (emphasis mine) campaigns, fast moving characters 
may leap further..." 
 
Further indications that the rule is optional are that the 
description of Leaping (page 144) does not mention it at all. 
Neither does the description of Superleap on page 85. 
 
Either the designers are guilty of truly ABOMINABLE editing 
here, or else the rule only applies to heroic campaigns (as 
stated). 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vector.wantree.com.au from gazza@wantree.com.au server root@vector.wantree.com.au ip 203.63.10.1 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:31:35 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > Seems to me that your average athlete isn't going to be getting 
> > much out of that Push - +1", or maybe +2 on a good day. 
>  
> With a 12- Ego roll and a 3, that comes out to 9 active points.  I  
> call that a record-setting effort. 
 
Uh... you are aware, of course, that heroic characters can only 
push STR, right? Even 9 active points is barely +2", assuming that 
their STR was 11 or less to start with. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vector.wantree.com.au from gazza@wantree.com.au server root@vector.wantree.com.au ip 203.63.10.1 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:32:30 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > Running up buildings - 
>  
> This is a special effect, not a Power. 
>  
> [...] 
>  
> > Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") - 
>  
> Again, this is a special effect. 
>  
> Yes, there is frequently more than one way to simulate a particular  
> special effect.  But that is a different kettle of fish from using  
> one power to simulate another power. 
 
EG, there is more than one way to simulate the special effect of 
being able to climb really fast in bad conditions, you mean? 
 
:-) 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo web1.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @web1.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.67 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Greetings, 
 
> psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes, 
> > Want to build a character who steps into a teleport 
> >disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super 
> >power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe 
> >for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this 
> >would be built? 
>  
        Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a bunch 
of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple 
of phases... 
 
        Does he actually go anywhere? 
 
Dale A. Ward 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.nai.net from jrc@mail1.nai.net server @mail1.nai.net ip 208.133.174.65 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:09:32 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes, 
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport 
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super 
>power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe 
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this 
>would be built? 
 
 Sounds like a heavily limited form of Extra-Dimensional Movement. It 
sounds like it uses an Obvious, Inaccessible, Immobile Focus (-1 1/2), and 
he automatically returns after 2 phases (-2?). Active cost 20, real cost 4. 
 
 If the character actually goes somewhere (Teleport), it could be Linked to 
the Teleport (it doesn't change the cost, though). The Teleport would 
probably be bought with Extra Time (Full Phase, maybe Full Turn) to 
represent the "transit time". 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:11:38 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>        Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a bunch 
>of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple 
>of phases... 
> 
>        Does he actually go anywhere? 
> 
>Dale A. Ward 
 
Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here.  I noticed I left that  
part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in  
Champions terms.  Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now  
that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into  
the dimension and not come out until his next phase.  Or for more fun, not  
come out until he wants to.   Or yet even more fun, length of time depends  
on distance of teleport.  Now, let's take friends along :)   Ok, I have now  
thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way.   
 
Teleport 
Desolid 
Complete Invisible  
 
all somehow linked, maybe adding in Extra Dimensional Travel, but there has  
to be an easier way.  
 
What is the point of all of this you might ask?  I don't know.  Just an  
effect I'm trying to pull off, but it does have some real value to it so I  
can't just chalk it up to fx.  Teleporting only 1" but not being around when  
that grenade goes off.  Teleporting behind someone, but not appearing until  
the entire party is in the room.  Teleporting ... well, can't think of a  
third example, off the top of my head, my brain is a little rattled tonight,  
but I'm sure there are many other reasons.  If nothing else, help me for  
character concept, if not for effective power.  :)  Thanks and talk at you  
later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo30.mx.aol.com from firelynx16@aol.com server @imo30.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.74 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:19:10 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
In a message dated 98-05-30 12:15:21 EDT, you write: 
 
> So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of  
> light, 
>  correct? 
 
No, the 'string' is simply a way of visualizing the LoS that the attacker has. 
I was trying to use it to show that in order to establish LoS, the attacker 
has to have a *direct* pathway along his/her targeting sense to the target.   
>   
>  In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly  
> quote).  I 
>  have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision,  
> not 
>  Cairasentience.  Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision 
> at the 
>  CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the  
> transmittling 
>  the picture from its source to the egoist destination.  That since the  
> egoist 
>  can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these 
>  additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken.  In other 
> words 
>  as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to 
>  precieve LOS is broken.  Correct? 
>   
>  If so, then this is the point of contention.  I am of the opinion that the 
>  intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the  
> format 
>  (and its a targetting sence) they are using, then  they would be able to 
use  
> their 
>  powers.  The various translations that the signal goes through passing from 
> your 
>  eye to your mind is clear proof of this.  The fact that the photons get  
> translated 
>  back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being  
> reconstructed 
>  in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is  
> proof of 
>  this.  Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet 
it 
>  tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow  
> format. 
>  So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format. 
 
 
I think I've gotten too complicated in this.  Let's simplify.  In order to 
establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with a 
targeting sense.  A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/her 
sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target.  They are only able 
to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen.  Therefore, 
LoS cannot be established.  Period.   It doesn't matter if the image is a live 
feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of 
showing an electronic reproduction.   Targeting senses work the same for a 
mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have to be 
able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them.  A sniper 
aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no stretch 
of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were hiding 
behind the tv, maybe)  They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv.  Same goes for 
mentalists. 
 
Now, once again, what I'm describing is just basic mentalist LoS.  Adding Mind 
Scan, or other Powers/Advantages *can* create a situation where a mentalist 
looks at a tv and is able to attack the person whose image is on the screen, 
but not without those extra add-ons. 
 
'Lynx 
   
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:24:00 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport.  That  
won't work because. 
 
A.  I want to move forward. 
B.  I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can  
stay in longer than a few phases. 
C.  I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic  
teleport.  Ie.  Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc.... 
 
I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics.  Sure some heroes  
teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going,  
but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for  
a second (phase) or two.  It isn't instaneous.  It may not have any real  
value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it.  Once  
again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane  
reason.  Oh well, here's to hoping.  Thanks in advance and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:26:00 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: By the way, I need a character name... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another.  This one is a  
lot simpler though.  Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick?  Not  
incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers.  Heck,  
might even get delayed teleport :)  Thanks in advance.  Take it easy and  
talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:48:31 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:26:00 -0500 (CDT), Sparx wrote: 
 
>Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another.  This one is a  
>lot simpler though.  Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick?  Not  
>incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers.  Heck,  
>might even get delayed teleport :)  Thanks in advance.  Take it easy and  
>talk at you later. 
 
What was the source of the character's power?  (Or some other pieces of background  
data to be a hook for a name). 
 
 
 
===================================================== 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
===================================================== 
Keeper of the Champions Mailing List.  Got a question about the 
list? Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.  
============ New feature:  Cardboard Heroes. ============ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 02:14:44 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:24:00 -0500 (CDT), Sparx wrote: 
 
>In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport.  That  
>won't work because. 
> 
>A.  I want to move forward. 
>B.  I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can  
>stay in longer than a few phases. 
>C.  I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic  
>teleport.  Ie.  Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc.... 
> 
>I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics.  Sure some heroes  
>teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going,  
>but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for  
>a second (phase) or two.  It isn't instaneous.  It may not have any real  
>value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it.  Once  
>again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane  
>reason.  Oh well, here's to hoping.  Thanks in advance and talk at you later. 
 
As per a normal T-port, determine the distance and direction you with to move.   
Teleport into a private dimension (we'll call it "T-space" in honor of Larry Niven's  
"N-space") with extra dimensional movement, then use teleport to actually move the  
distance and direction you want to go, then extra dimensional move back.  Each t-port  
now takes 3 phases, and during the "middle" phase you are not accessible at all.   
Build the whole construct with the two power linked together (and regardless of which  
power the linked lim is applied to, play as if both powers MUST be used together).  If  
you want to be able to force the t-port to take longer than 3 phases, don't use the linked  
limitation. 
 
Several folks have suggested some type of limited ex-dim movement and your (B)  
comment leads me to think that you're getting a bit hung up on semantics.  Don't  
confuse the power "name" with the power "effect".  Think about a plain teleport.   
Teleporting your full distance takes a phase.  Where are you during that phase?   
You're "someplace special".  Well, getting "someplace special" in the Hero System is  
done with extra dimensional movement, regardless of whether is an alternate Earth, the  
9 planes of Hell, or Hyperspace (or T-space); you've somehow, by whatever special  
effect is involved, stepped away from this reality. 
 
Anything else I can think of to get the type of effect you've described would be a real  
power kludge.  T-Port + Ex-Dim Move is reasonably clean. 
 
===================================================== 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
===================================================== 
Keeper of the Champions Mailing List.  Got a question about the 
list? Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.  
============ New feature:  Cardboard Heroes. ============ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from eavatar@rj.sol.com.br server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:23:40 -0300 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <eavatar@rj.sol.com.br> 
Reply-To: eavatar@rj.sol.com.br 
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Sparx wrote: 
 
> Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another.  This one is a 
> lot simpler though.  Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick?  Not 
> incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers.  Heck, 
> might even get delayed teleport :)  Thanks in advance.  Take it easy and 
> talk at you later. 
> 
> Sparx 
> 
 
    How about Willforce? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from griffin@txdirect.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:03:23 -0500 
To: psansone@i1.net (Sparx), champ-l@omg.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:46 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>        Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me.  I'm  
>just behind the times on e-mail.  Then again, ain't I always saying this  
>when I do send out some e-mail?  Oh well, here is my question for the month  
>concerning Champions.  Want to build a character who steps into a teleport  
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super  
>power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe  
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this  
>would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking  
>when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
This question (and the various responses to it, involving XDM, 
Invisibility, linked powers and other combinations) is one of those that 
makes me think I must be missing something.  The solution *seems* obvious, 
but evidently there's something wrong with this: 
 
Teleport, Time Delay +1/4 
 
For the sake of argument, let's take the position that the important 
component of a power is it's end result; in the case of Teleport, the end 
result is "arrive somewhere else", and "disappear from starting point" is 
merely a preparatory step towards that end result. 
 
Okay, that being the case, you apply the Time Delay to the end result of 
the Teleport, not the preparatory step.  You disappear whenever you like, 
"setting" the Power (see the description of Time Delay) and determining 
your re-entry location in space-time at that point. 
 
If re-entry time isn't under the character's control, but is a function of 
distance Teleported, that might be worth a -1/4 Limitation, cancelling out 
the cost increase of the Time Delay. 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:28:02 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:26 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another.  This one is a  
>lot simpler though.  Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick?  Not  
>incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers.  Heck,  
>might even get delayed teleport :)  Thanks in advance.  Take it easy and  
>talk at you later. 
 
   It would depend somewhat on his origin and ethnic background.  The name 
that came right to mind was Spirit Wind. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:31:51 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:46 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>        Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me.  I'm  
>just behind the times on e-mail.  Then again, ain't I always saying this  
>when I do send out some e-mail?  Oh well, here is my question for the month  
>concerning Champions.  Want to build a character who steps into a teleport  
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super  
>power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe  
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this  
>would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking  
>when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
   Does he teleport to a different location, or the same one?  If a 
different location, I'd make this Teleport with Extra Time; if the same, 
severely limited XDM (to "two phases in the future"). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:37:18 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:11 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>>        Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a 
bunch 
>>of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple 
>>of phases... 
>> 
>>        Does he actually go anywhere? 
>> 
>>Dale A. Ward 
> 
>Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here.  I noticed I left that  
>part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in  
>Champions terms.  Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now  
>that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into  
>the dimension and not come out until his next phase.  Or for more fun, not  
>come out until he wants to.   Or yet even more fun, length of time depends  
>on distance of teleport.  Now, let's take friends along :)   Ok, I have now  
>thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way. 
 
   If the amount of time he's "gone" is fixed, I'd just call this a 
declared effect, using Extra Time on Teleport.  Sure, he can't be touched, 
but he can't interact with the world either; he can't even tell what's 
happening. 
   Being able to not come back until he wants to is a different ball of 
wax.  This would almost definitely be XDM into his "teleport dimension," 
probably with Transdimensional Clairvoyance (at No Range) to see into the 
"real world" so he can tell when he wants to return. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo thalia.fm.intel.com from dave.wolf@intel.com server @thalia.fm.intel.com ip 132.233.247.11 
From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com> 
To: "\"badtodd@dacmail.net\" " <badtodd@dacmail.net&> 
        "\"champ-l@sysabend.org\" " <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "\"Guy Hoyle\" " 
	 <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: RE: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:55:00 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>On 5/29/98, at 12:28 PM, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>>Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs...  Let  
>>them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.  Either  
>>some kind of 'life force' thing, or maybe it requires some small part  
>>of the brain that the host can't live without. Hitler's 'death camps'  
>>were actually a cover.  All of the people that were killed were used to  
>>create Mastermind's supers. 
      
>While this is an excellent idea, I think it might make for a somewhat 
grimmer  
>tone than I'd like to use in a "Golden Age" campaign; perhaps it's enough 
of a  
>moral dilemma that they must use Mastermind's own research to gain  
>super-powers, knowing that Mastermind sacrificed innocent lives to create 
the  
>Zarathustra formula. It might be too much to ask for them to sacrifice 
lives,  
>as well.  (You also have ironies such as the PCs using Mastermind's own 
formula 
>against him, and thus saving the innocent lives he sacrificed in the first  
>place). 
      
But what if the heroe's have found a way to synthesize the drug instead of  
having to get it from people, maybe it isn't as strong or only lasts for a  
limited time. 
 
My .02$ 
 
Dave 
      
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 10:10:57 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
GAZZA  writes: 
 
> "In HEROIC (emphasis mine) campaigns, fast moving characters may leap 
> further..." 
 
Yep, it does say "heroic". 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXFk8J6VRH7BJMxHAQF/YAQAgunRBpqkT8r9Lo2+Grs7YohjTaHHJMV0 
jsNx4JVtAwrsz2Mxkyk8cB5LLEbG3cArRhNXxQYA2k5e54kl7F5Jz+b12sJZN0+N 
Etf3NMWB+qkE+7X2F5+zjnA0TWGoomlSb9YXlyHhCPwrQzelMTYimuQXHdt4Waat 
WF2u/gdwefo= 
=cRbe 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 10:16:15 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
GAZZA  writes: 
 
> EG, there is more than one way to simulate the special effect of 
> being able to climb really fast in bad conditions, you mean? 
 
Yeah... my first choice would be to use a small ammount of limited Flight. 
Clinging introduces the problem that the character is *NOT* sticking to the 
surface with his full Strength -- this being the primary purpose of 
Clinging ("With this Standard Power a character may cling to walls and 
sheer surfaces, and move on them as if they were level.") you cannot limit 
it away. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXFmLp6VRH7BJMxHAQFeYQQAgW4EcFG918elbCUiY9AKCXp8hCTrUu1A 
/rQfKdddtzR8gGZE3z9zwSi5CaQdiADYKRPY6HW5UOh7MEvAdqWh3mT+nAkFZQl4 
1g7X97CaQohEkiVvqQzQVUqln2gyqMcfFaGUyaeACIUs2iHhnyGga1eoRJUTv/js 
0xXHsEPjvqQ= 
=ynPc 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,    dammit!) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 10:18:25 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Hm... am I, then, not the only person on the list who can hear the white 
> of a CRT, thus being able to tell by hearing when a TV is on even when the 
> volume is completely off?  :-] 
 
No, you are not. 
 
Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXFmsJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGqZgP9HmBIVym9+PXXkZS4haE4Xxl0vBlteoEZ 
3cSREqDYzRNmjwGWvUAgNg5nk72HCUvV1EQoorWdFD3Ev+tzDQvpFZ0vOA9FjJkC 
vbjqBtimoZo4E4k4bcJKM4I5omfJwIQDmBwS0sWxm1g4cH+4QeeFs2qQL4alD3kE 
TPArx7Jt5AA= 
=rqJA 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:20:11 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:08 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 08:12 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   For instance, a player with TUMA could tell his GM, "I want my mech to 
>>have a Shoulder Cannon II," the GM could look that up in his copy of TUMA, 
>>okay it, and the player would only have to write in "Shoulder Cannon II" on 
>>his mech's sheet for 19 points (58 active).  Or, if the GM prefers, he 
>>could write it out to, "4d6 RKA, -1 OCV, +2 Range Mod, 8 charges, Vehicular 
>>OIF, 60 degree arc of fire."  If he's using HeroMaker (or, in the hopefully 
>>near future, Creation Workshop with Hero Creator) and bought the on-disk 
>>version of TUMA, he could just pull the Shoulder Cannon II from the file of 
>>"Slug Throwers - Mounted." 
> 
>There are shoulder cannons in TUMA?  I have Ninja Hero and thought TUMA was 
>just an update.  But, be that as it may... 
 
   Whoops -- my boo-boo.  There are shoulder cannons in TUSV.  (That's what 
happens when someone on a poorly-arranged sleep schedule is using multiple 
abbreviations which are 50% identical!) 
   (And for the first time in three weeks, someone makes a sarcastic remark 
without identifying it as such, and the person to whom it's directed 
actually *recognizes* the sarcasm despite said sleep schedule!  Will 
wonders never cease?)  (Hint hint.) 
   (Sorry about all the parenthetical remarks.) 
 
>Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc.  This is why I'm having a 
>problem with it.  Claws depend on the size of the creature using them. 
>There is not a lot of variation in claws.  How does a list of mouse to 
>dragon claws really help?  I don't see it.  What value does this have? 
> 
>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4 
>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8 
>Tiger  1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12 
>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15 
>Bear   1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20 
>Dragon  2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40 
>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength)  60 
 
   That table would be a good start.  Some of these will be 1/2 END (the 
feline ones) while other will be 0 END.  The Dragon's claws might have 
Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be 
Penetrating. 
   (I may be confusing the bearcat for a different creature -- one whose 
claws are tough enough to rip through just about anything.  I've seen one 
of these close up, at the West Coast Game Park Safari just outside Bandon, 
Oregon, and I seem to remember it being the bearcat, so that's what I'm 
going to call it for the rest of this post, and the rest of this discussion 
until someone corrects me.) 
   Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard. 
"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster and 
creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons charts. 
 
>>   On the other hand, the player could also say, "I want my mech to have a 
>>weapon like the Shoulder Cannon II, but Armor Piercing," then he still 
>>could; the weapon would just do 2-1/2d6 RKA AP instead of a straight 4d6 
RKA. 
> 
>Okay, but nothing about this list tells you to reduce the 4D6 to 2.5D6. 
>You have to know the system just as well to make that should cannon as to 
>make one from scratch, IMHO. 
 
   Of course not.  If the player doesn't want to mess with the finer points 
of the construction system, then he can just take the Shoulder Cannon II 
as-is.  If he does, then he can use the weapons on the list as models for 
starting points.  Or he can just build from scratch, like most of us have 
already been doing. 
   That's the main thing that construct lists are for -- simplifying 
character construction for those who need it.  Creating the above-mentioned 
standard is a secondary reason; it would probably be enough of a reason by 
itself, but (IMO) making the character creation process easier for newbies 
is a more significant and compelling reason. 
 
>>   Similarly, the lists of swords in FH, NH, TUMA, and other books help 
>>give a standardized idea of what a given sword should be able to do. 
> 
>Now this is a good reason for a paragraph not a list.  I think the list 
>would be boring since natural weaponry will not have as much variation as 
>the sword lists. 
 
   You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced 
Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla).  As I 
pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's 
even more variation that can be had. 
   The main point is to show newbie players how it's done and what the 
effects are of doing things a certain way.  A novice GM should be able to 
grab the Bestiary and decide, "OK, this creature has the jaws and claws of 
a bearcat and an armadillo's hide, but it's the size of a tiger and 
excretes a muscle-relaxing poison," and be able to enter it on the 
creature's character sheet, knowing exactly what construct he's using for 
each of these without having to work out anything but the poison for 
himself.  And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of 
these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty 
straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature, 
seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation, 
and *then* getting it down. 
 
>>   I agree with the other guys that a similar standard should be set for 
>>claws.  A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under 
>>the 5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice, 
>>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's.  If it's 
>>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though none 
>>spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the table should 
>>list that.  The whole table would probably be no bigger than the list of 
>>swords in TUMA.  A creature whose claws have some unusual property would 
>>simply have its claws detailed out. 
> 
>Okay.  Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble 
>with.  The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two 
>paragraphs of text.  Poison would be its own section. 
 
   It depends, of course, on how many variations on claws you have. 
Retractable claws would be slightly different from those that are out all 
the time (I was using 1/2 END vs 0 END above).  Particularly tough claws 
(like those of a bearcat) would have some Advantage like AP or Penetrating. 
 Dave listed a slew of other variations, and while I think he may have gone 
a bit overboard on the range possibilities (I agree with you that poison 
would be its own section), I think he has the right general idea. 
   The idea (IMO) is to enable newbie players to tell the GM, "Based on my 
concept as being yada-yada, I want Construct X from The Ultimate Whatever," 
and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X 
back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks 
to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly.  Secondarily, should the 
player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the 
GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than 
having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his 
math. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 10:21:16 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
> One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The  
> amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the  
> amount of the density decrease. 
 
Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can 
carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
 
I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXFnWJ6VRH7BJMxHAQG9YgQAjoqPBt/RiUvLij/7nqyTDsHkH2LamEL4 
RXzD0+FT1vzxgNR/UdWLs4vRdN6+vGC9Q7FSTC3C8wUFQOqBkQ1spQuX7qwXGicM 
51fRS/agXI9+aD+qMPqb+0LktaeIHeAN/Yg5XHFDA0hm5/q4evsgIGkffu0C32ww 
flic183T8as= 
=8j1C 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.nai.net from jrc@mail1.nai.net server @mail1.nai.net ip 208.133.174.65 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:26:17 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes, 
>In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport.  That 
>won't work because. 
> 
>A.  I want to move forward. 
>B.  I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can 
>stay in longer than a few phases. 
>C.  I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic 
>teleport.  Ie.  Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc.... 
 
 It's starting to sound like an arbitrarily limited Teleport. -1/4 if it 
just takes a phase, -1/2 if it's based on distance or takes a full turn, 
and higher lims if it takes longer than a turn. 
 
 What can the character do while he is teleporting? If he's held in stasis 
while teleporting (no recoveries, can't start powers with Extra Time, etc), 
you probably want a slightly larger limitation. If he can perform actions 
(even only on himself), use a smaller one. 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:26:33 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:53 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would have 
>3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post). 
 
   At least 4 columns: 1 more for Notes, which would include modifiers such 
as Reduced Penetration (your Gargoyle didn't have it, nor did Godzilla), 
END level, Armor Piercing, Penetrating, AoE, etc. 
 
>>I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a 
>>beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either.  Once the "Beast Builder" 
>>is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some 
>>of the components should move up to a more general book.  What is left 
>>might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.   
> 
>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very 
>long on examples of complete creatures.  Of course, that would be a more 
>late-90s name for the Beastiary. 
 
   Don't be so sure.  When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his 
reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book.  Of course, 
this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM 
for sheer size. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:52:19 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:14 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>>    Ah, and there's the difference!  You're using a map, and calculating 
>> angles, not using *solely* the video system!  If one could use the video 
>> system as a targeting sense (in the Hero System sense of the term), then 
>> the map and calculations would not be necessary; you could just aim and 
>> fire.  With the map and calculations, you could still make a fairly 
>> accurate shot, but you're still essentially firing blind (again, in terms 
>> of Hero mechanics). 
> 
>I don't have lightning calculator or the trig tables memorized so I need 
them for 
>the exact tragectory for the balistic shell.  The map is needed for 
calculating 
>the distance.  Since Mental Powers are uneffected by either tragectory or 
>distance niether of these would be needed for use with mental powers. 
Now, given 
>that there are no other influences on the bullet after being fired (muzzle 
>imperfections, winds, obstiles etc.) then the bullet would hit the target. 
 Once 
>again these types of influences don't effect mental powers, so what is 
>prohibiting egoists from useing their powers? 
 
   There *is* a trajectory of sorts for Mental Powers; that trajectory just 
happens to be a straight line. 
   Knowing the numbers is irrelevant.  When using just plain, unmodified 
normal sight to target, the mentalist does not know either the absolute or 
relative coordinates of the target in numerical terms any more than any 
other character would.  He just knows, "there he is," and sends out his 
attack in that direction. 
   Now, as you say, the mental attacks are not affected by things like 
muzzle imperfections, winds, obsctacles, gravity, and such.  But they *are* 
affected by what direction you point them.  If you direct a mental attack 
toward the wrong location, you miss. 
   Seeing an image on a TV screen does not tell you where the subject of 
that image is in relation to yourself.  It *can* give you enough 
information to enable you to figure it out, but in itself it doesn't give 
you that datum.  If you do figure it out, you're really shooting blindly, 
and (in game terms) would attack at 0 OCV (the same penalty as targeting an 
Invisible character who isn't actually seen but whose location is known, 
which is essentially what's happening). 
   Try working out this idea as an example.  (For the sake of the example, 
I'll assume you live in a house in a middle-class residential neighborhood; 
you can adjust the scenery as necessary.)  Suppose you're in your living 
room with the front curtains closed and the TV on, and a sniper rifle in 
your hand, and you know perfectly well how to use that sniper rifle.  On 
your front lawn, you have a marksman's target and a friend with a 
camcorder; the camcorder is hooked up so you can see the target on your TV. 
 Do you really think you could shoot that rifle with the same accuracy as 
you could with the curtains open? 
   *That* is the difference being discussed here. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:58:32 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:31 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >>    It's not a physical difference that makes the difference.  It's a 
>> >> logistical difference.   In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the 
photons 
>> >> are coming from the target.  In the case of a television screen, the 
>> >> photons are coming from a television screen. 
>> > 
>> >So the source of the light makes the difference?  Do neon lights, 
incandescent, 
>> >electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental 
Powers. 
>> >Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a 
television do 
>> >they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they 
produce for 
>> >egoists? 
>> 
>>    No.  Neon lights, incadescent lights, electrical impedence lights, and 
>> nuclear light sources do not have minds (at least, as a rule; we are 
>> talking about a superhero world, after all), and so cannot be targeted by 
>> Mental Powers.  I don't know why anyone would even propose trying such a 
>> thing. 
>>    However, any living being from which those lights reflect do have minds, 
>> and can be targeted. 
> 
>I'm not talking about targetting them.  I'm talking about the type of 
light they 
>produce and how it effects the targetting of mental powers.  The previous 
post 
>made distinctions about the source of the light and since the light from the 
>target is only being relected from another light source, I was showing 
that this 
>type of distinction is baseless since it would exclude other light sources 
besides 
>the television. 
 
   The television isn't the source of the light against by which the 
intended target is being seen, though.  The intended target isn't 
reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no 
problem.)  The screen is *becoming* the target.  It's *creating* the image 
of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly 
from the intended target. 
 
>>    But how does he aim the missile?  Aren't the monitor and aiming system 
>> linked together somehow?  Or does he just see the image on the monitor and 
>> somehow "know" where that is relative to his weapon, punch in those 
>> relative coordinates, and fire? 
> 
>Depends on the fire control system.  Some let the gunner select with a dot 
on the 
>screen, some use circles or boxes others use crosshairs.  The pilot places 
the 
>targetting mechanism on the chosen target, the system then gathers 
information to 
>obtain lock on (exact postion, distance, and guidence profiles for use by the 
>missles sensors).  Once the system has locked on, id has obtained sufficient 
>information to calculate a guidence tragectory and correct for movement of 
the 
>target, the pilot is imformed and then s/he decides when to fire the weapon. 
 
   That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is 
the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms).  He's not using his 
own vision to target.  To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret 
what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target, 
but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual 
targeting. 
   A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a 
rule, have the benefit of such a system. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:03:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:24 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Agreed.  I've never said there wouldn't be negitives or training involved 
in using Mantal Powers through a video feed.  What I've been saying is that 
there is nothing to inherently prohibit a mentalist from using a CRT to 
assist them in locating a target. 
 
   Actually, what you said above that you've never said is precisely what 
you said that started this whole conversation -- that using TV would 
provide "Line of Sight" for Mental Powers.  And the rest of us have been 
trying to explain that TV can give information about location, but not the 
sort of "Line of Sight" that is needed to target Mental Powers. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:20:09 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
(This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.) 
 
Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not 
appear to limit in any way?  For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield 
the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as 
if no limitation was taken.  By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the 
STR min by 2. 
 
I wonder if it shouldn't be this way:  1.5 Handed as normal, except the 
weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands.  The owner can wield 
the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2. 
 
That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1 
hand at STR min + 5.  (Double the required STR sounds about right to me for 
1 handed use.) 
 
Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance, 
and the height of the wielder.  Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using a 
halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed does 
not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different 
place? 
 
If all the above is correct, how many levels of Growth or Shrinking does a 
character need to gain or lose the ability to use certain weapons--for each 
of the "hands"?  That is, a 3 foot gnome might need 2 hands to use a small 
spear, but could not use a broadsword regardless of STR. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:26:41 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:04 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> 1. You didn't buy Clairvoyance for the television system. It already 
>> exists, and has certain features that limit it, such as your inability to 
>> precisely locate the camera in relation to you. If you were to buy 
>> Clairvoyance (SFX Closed circuit camera), you might choose to take 
>> such limitations, or choose to spend the points needed to bypass the 
>> limitations. Either way, as you didn't buy the television network as a 
>> Power, you must buy a full Power to use it in a fashion thatbypasses 
>> its limitations. 
>> 
> 
>I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence.  It's telescopic 
vision, with 
>usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) 
and a large area 
>of effect.  So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision 
through binoculars 
>and not through a CRT? 
 
   About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say 
rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having 
ever said it on this List: 
   Your way of constructing it is wrong.  Absolutely, totally wrong. 
   Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the 
viewer and the target.  This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.* 
For one thing, if it was Telescopic Vision, then any obstacles in the way 
would block the vision; for another, everything on your screen would appear 
with equal clarity regardless of distance; and for another, you'd only be 
able to see things as they would look from the perspective of where you 
sit.  Considering that you can I can see a TV broadcast of the Gateway Arch 
and see the exact same thing, including neither of us being able to see 
whatever birds may be perched on them as though they were 8 meters away, 
this is clearly the wrong way to model this. 
   A TV system changes the point of perspective between the viewer and the 
target, bypassing all obstacles in between.  This is *precisely* the effect 
of Clairvoyance, according to the book.  The screen will show the same 
thing whether it's 6 feet from the camera, or 6 time zones; the distance 
between the two points is irrelevant, while from the point of the camera 
all normal Range Mods apply.  (A camera could, of course, have Telescopic 
Vision through a zoom lens, but that is a totally different matter.) 
   The most accurate model of a TV system (IMO) would be:  Clairvoyance, to 
get the image from the camera to the transmitter; TV Transmitting (a 
modified version of Radio Hearing to [1] cover TV rather than traditional 
AM/FM/Police bands and [2] transmit instead of receive) to send the signal 
out; TV Receiving to get the signal on the set; and Images to translate and 
show what the camera sees.  (All this with various Limitations, starting 
with but not limited to Focus.)  This almost precisely models what a TV 
system does.  It may seem a bit convoluted at first glance, but that's 
really how it works -- and that's why you can't use Mental Powers for LOS 
through it. 
   Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would 
allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting.  This is what the 
cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide.  Using a 
crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect 
for this.  But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into 
the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:52:08 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Sparx wrote: 
 
> In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport.  That 
> won't work because. 
> 
> A.  I want to move forward. 
> B.  I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can 
> stay in longer than a few phases. 
> C.  I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic 
> teleport.  Ie.  Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc.... 
> 
> I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics.  Sure some heroes 
> teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going, 
> but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for 
> a second (phase) or two.  It isn't instaneous.  It may not have any real 
> value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it.  Once 
> again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane 
> reason.  Oh well, here's to hoping.  Thanks in advance and talk at you later. 
> 
 
I think what you really want is Extra-Dimensional Movement.  EDM with Any 
locations and Though time.  The locations are all the hexes within a certain 
distance of the starting point to simulate the teleporting distance.  The through 
time it so simulate the time the characters spends in the outher universe.  If 
you want to take other people its 5 points per power of two (on a scientific 
calculator, where N is the number of people you want to be able to take with you, 
the keying sequence is[5][x][N][ln][/][2][ln][=]) people.  That is the character 
is assumed to be one of the people in the group. 
 
For example: to move a total of 6 people up to one turn into the future and up to 
25" from the starting point would be 73 points.  The limitations would be OAF, 
Backpack Size (the disk),  Only into the future (1/2), up to 12 seconds (+1), up 
to 25" away (1/4) for a total cost of 18 points. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:52:49 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>As per a normal T-port, determine the distance and direction you with to  
move.   
>Teleport into a private dimension (we'll call it "T-space" in honor of  
Larry Niven's  
>"N-space") with extra dimensional movement, then use teleport to actually  
move the  
>distance and direction you want to go, then extra dimensional move back.   
Each t-port  
>now takes 3 phases, and during the "middle" phase you are not accessible at  
all.   
>Build the whole construct with the two power linked together (and  
regardless of which  
>power the linked lim is applied to, play as if both powers MUST be used  
together).  If  
>you want to be able to force the t-port to take longer than 3 phases, don't  
use the linked  
>limitation. 
> 
>Several folks have suggested some type of limited ex-dim movement and your (B)  
>comment leads me to think that you're getting a bit hung up on semantics.   
Don't  
>confuse the power "name" with the power "effect".  Think about a plain  
teleport.   
 
Well, I wasn't trying to get hung up on semantics of EDM.  I just didn't  
want it to seem like I was trying to get free points or fudge the system in  
my favor.  Some GMs say the point you enter EDM is the same point you come  
out and so on and so one, and not all will allow EDM movement effect  
original world movement.  So that is where I was getting hung up on Extra  
Dimensional Movement.  I do like your idea though and for the most part it  
will work.  Just have to make sure whatever GM I'm playing under will ok it.  
 Thanks, take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:55:55 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Teleport, Time Delay +1/4 
> 
>For the sake of argument, let's take the position that the important 
>component of a power is it's end result; in the case of Teleport, the end 
>result is "arrive somewhere else", and "disappear from starting point" is 
>merely a preparatory step towards that end result. 
 
Yeah, I was thinking that too, but it seemed to easy.  Then I thought of the  
obvious thing every one would tell me, "No, Time Delay is the amount of time  
it takes for the power to go off, not the inbetween time of the power."  I  
like this the best because it is simple, but how many people would say it is  
ok?  Personally, if I were the GM for the character I'd ok it, because  
though the character may not be in a safe zone, everyone else is also safe  
from him.  Well, thanks, take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:10:09 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Firelynx16@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 98-05-30 12:15:21 EDT, you write: 
> 
> > So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of 
> > light, 
> >  correct? 
> 
> No, the 'string' is simply a way of visualizing the LoS that the attacker has. 
> I was trying to use it to show that in order to establish LoS, the attacker 
> has to have a *direct* pathway along his/her targeting sense to the target. 
 
I have no problem visualizing your string.  What I have a problem with is how it 
gets broken by the various translations the light goes through when it travels 
from the camera to the CRT. 
 
> > 
> >  In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly 
> > quote).  I 
> >  have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision, 
> > not 
> >  Cairasentience.  Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision 
> > at the 
> >  CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the 
> > transmittling 
> >  the picture from its source to the egoist destination.  That since the 
> > egoist 
> >  can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these 
> >  additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken.  In other 
> > words 
> >  as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to 
> >  precieve LOS is broken.  Correct? 
> > 
> >  If so, then this is the point of contention.  I am of the opinion that the 
> >  intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the 
> > format 
> >  (and its a targetting sence) they are using, then  they would be able to 
> use 
> > their 
> >  powers.  The various translations that the signal goes through passing from 
> > your 
> >  eye to your mind is clear proof of this.  The fact that the photons get 
> > translated 
> >  back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being 
> > reconstructed 
> >  in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is 
> > proof of 
> >  this.  Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet 
> it 
> >  tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow 
> > format. 
> >  So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format. 
> 
> I think I've gotten too complicated in this.  Let's simplify.  In order to 
> establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with a 
> targeting sense.  A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/her 
> sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target.  They are only able 
> to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen.  Therefore, 
> LoS cannot be established.  Period. 
 
Here is where we disagree.  If enough contextual information is given on the 
screen then the location of the target may be deterimined.  IMO this gives the 
egoist the possiblity of using their powers 
 
> It doesn't matter if the image is a live 
> feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of 
> showing an electronic reproduction.   Targeting senses work the same for a 
> mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have to be 
> able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them.  A sniper 
> aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no stretch 
> of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were hiding 
> behind the tv, maybe)  They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv.  Same goes for 
> mentalists. 
 
The targetting sence for mentalist, IMO, is knowing the location of the mind of 
the target.  Line of Sight and Mind Scan are two ways of knowing this.  It comes 
down to interpreting a part of the rules that are not spelled out.  Are line of 
sight and mind scan two parts of the same thing or are they two seperate things. 
 
> 
> 
> Now, once again, what I'm describing is just basic mentalist LoS.  Adding Mind 
> Scan, or other Powers/Advantages *can* create a situation where a mentalist 
> looks at a tv and is able to attack the person whose image is on the screen, 
> but not without those extra add-ons. 
> 
> 'Lynx 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:12:31 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:03 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>This question (and the various responses to it, involving XDM, 
>Invisibility, linked powers and other combinations) is one of those that 
>makes me think I must be missing something.  The solution *seems* obvious, 
>but evidently there's something wrong with this: 
> 
>Teleport, Time Delay +1/4 
 
   I hadn't even thought of Time Delay.  I think this is the way to do it. 
:-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:15:30 -0700 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:21 AM 5/31/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Robert A West writes: 
> 
>> One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The  
>> amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the  
>> amount of the density decrease. 
> 
>Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can 
>carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
 
   I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post. 
 
>I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage. 
 
   Oh yeah?  Just tell that to Oprah!  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:27:26 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> <snip> 
 
 
 
>   Now, as you say, the mental attacks are not affected by things like 
> muzzle imperfections, winds, obsctacles, gravity, and such.  But they *are* 
> affected by what direction you point them.  If you direct a mental attack 
> toward the wrong location, you miss. 
 
agreed. 
 
>    Seeing an image on a TV screen does not tell you where the subject of 
> that image is in relation to yourself.  It *can* give you enough 
> information to enable you to figure it out, but in itself it doesn't give 
> you that datum.  If you do figure it out, you're really shooting blindly, 
> and (in game terms) would attack at 0 OCV (the same penalty as targeting an 
> Invisible character who isn't actually seen but whose location is known, 
> which is essentially what's happening). 
 
good point 
 
>    Try working out this idea as an example.  (For the sake of the example, 
> I'll assume you live in a house in a middle-class residential neighborhood; 
> you can adjust the scenery as necessary.)  Suppose you're in your living 
> room with the front curtains closed and the TV on, and a sniper rifle in 
> your hand, and you know perfectly well how to use that sniper rifle.  On 
> your front lawn, you have a marksman's target and a friend with a 
> camcorder; the camcorder is hooked up so you can see the target on your TV. 
>  Do you really think you could shoot that rifle with the same accuracy as 
> you could with the curtains open? 
 
No, but I could take the shot. 
 
>    *That* is the difference being discussed here. 
 
No, what has been said here is that it is not possible to take the shot.  What I 
have said is it is possible to take the shot and the chances of success depend 
on the situation, ie the context of what is being viewed.  Too extand your 
example, if the marksmans target is in a direct path from the front door with 
the right side of the target in line with the doornob then the odds of hitting 
are greater then if no frame of reference is known.  As I have said before the 
proof is in the details.  I've maintained that the possiblity exists that you 
can use the powers but the probability of success depends on the situation. 
 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:35:03 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>What was the source of the character's power?  (Or some other pieces of  
background  
>data to be a hook for a name). 
 
Well, I haven't gotten that far into the concept yet.  Origin stories would  
be appreciated, but may not be used.  I tend to like to come up with my own  
stories.  I don't know how everyone else comes up with character concepts,  
but I tend to do mine in any order that appears.  Sometimes I'll have a cool  
origin before the character, sometimes just a name, sometimes powers I like  
mashing together (such as this one).  Heck, one time I even based an entire  
super hero team off a dream I had.  Actually came up with 8 medium power  
characters all pretty decent.  I'm thinking I have a name for my brick /  
mentalist now though, Someone suggested Willforce,  which is good, but I  
remember a friend had a character with a name that nearly fits perfect.   
Iron Will, don't know, still up in the air.  Any other suggestions would be  
appreciated.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
================================================================== 
3000+ E-mail?  I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on  
alternate dimesions. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:46:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> <clip> 
>    The television isn't the source of the light against by which the 
> intended target is being seen, though.  The intended target isn't 
> reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no 
> problem.)  The screen is *becoming* the target.  It's *creating* the image 
> of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly 
> from the intended target. 
> 
 
So what your saying is only light diretly reflected from the target can be used to 
attack a target, that the light that the camera is viewing that is directly 
reflected from the taget, encoded and then deencoded is somehow different then 
light directly relected.  Please explain how? 
 
> 
> 
>    That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is 
> the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms).  He's not using his 
> own vision to target.  To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret 
> what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target, 
> but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual 
> targeting. 
>    A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a 
> rule, have the benefit of such a system. 
 
So agent using a gun with an attached Heads up Display is not targeting his 
weapon, the HUD is targetting ir for him?  My interpreation of this is that the 
dot on the HUD is skill levels (supplied by the computer).  That is additional 
targeting information to give the shooter a better chance to hit.  The Nordens 
bomb sight didn't aim and drop the bombs.  The bomb sight gave the bombadier 
better infomation to drop the bombs with, in other word additional skill levels 
and telescopic vision through a focus.  That's all the HUD systems are, skill 
levels supplied by the onboard computer aiding the pilot/gunner in taking the 
shot.  Just like the attachable HUD's that are becoming so popular in target 
shooting these days. The sight doesn't do the targeting, it gives the shooter 
additional skill levels aid in hitting the target. 
 
Back to mentalist, the TV only gives the mentalist the possiblity of taking a 
shot.  The possiblity of success depends on situation and the amount of 
information given. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10 
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:46:59 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>I'd tend to make horns a different entry, or at least a distinct 
section.  
>To me, it's the same issue as "bites."   
 
I was thinking of horns and claws as external projections. Mouths would 
be a different deal. 
 
>So all these creature attacks might have a lot of cross-reference. 
>"To see how to build these horns, see claws, permanent." 
 
Yes, and that's why I included a mention of poison, since although 
poison will have its own section on the effects of poison, claws can be 
a method of poison delivery, and that's what will need to be discussed 
in the claw section. The poison section, will of course refer back to 
teeth, claws, and other sections as delivery methods. 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
>Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster  
>and creates a standard  
 
And that's why I want to create The Ultimate Superhero. 
 
>Dave listed a slew of other variations, and while I think he may have  
>gone a bit overboard on the range possibilities (I agree with you that 
>poison would be its own section), I think he has the right general 
idea. 
 
That's because it was an off-the-cuff example. I generally trim about 
half of my ideas out before I'm done. You should see some of my Haymaker 
articles at the halfway mark... Much much bigger. 
 
Thanks for your support, though. 
 
>tell the GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that 
OK?"  
 
Yes. Besides answering "how do I do X in Hero?", it also will give 
benchmarks. If a character wants to survive a fall from an airplane, or 
shoot a laser beam that does as much damage as a handful of dynamite, or 
be able to hit a fly with a soda can from across the room, they can have 
a definitive source. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:04:54 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say 
> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having 
> ever said it on this List: 
>    Your way of constructing it is wrong.  Absolutely, totally wrong. 
>    Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the 
> viewer and the target.  This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.* 
 
My mistake.  I wasn't clear enough here.  The telescopi vision I was refering to 
is that of the zoom lense on the camera.  The camera itself is a point of 
Clairasentience that has telescopic vision.  Anything in front of the camera 
lence is blocked.  After looking back over my posts, I realize I never maid this 
clear.  I apologize for my inaccuracy. 
 
> <clip> 
 
 
 
>   Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would 
> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting.  This is what the 
> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide.  Using a 
> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect 
> for this.  But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into 
> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it. 
> --- 
 
The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels.  That's what a HUD 
does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information about 
the target you are shooting at.  The base system (ie no additional skill levels) 
is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece.  The computer then adds details and 
information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels.  The 
weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just 
that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 31 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.) 
>  
> Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not 
> appear to limit in any way?  For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield 
> the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as 
> if no limitation was taken.  By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the 
> STR min by 2. 
 
A number of people in my local gaming group (myself included) did not like 
the weapons rules given in FH, NH and  UMA.  We felt that the STR min and 
damage values for the weapons were unrealistic.  So, we rewrote the 
weapons (all of them).  Among the changes were lowered STR Mins, lowered 
damage and removal of the +1 OCV mod for many weapons.  The results are on 
my website in the Hero Source section. 
  
> I wonder if it shouldn't be this way:  1.5 Handed as normal, except the 
> weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands.  The owner can wield 
> the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2. 
 
We upped it to +3 STR for 1-handed use. (or, -3 STR for two-handed use). 
 
> That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1 
> hand at STR min + 5.  (Double the required STR sounds about right to me for 
> 1 handed use.) 
 
No.  That falls apart at higher levels.  You don't have to be *that* 
strong to use a bastard sword one-handed.  This can also lead to more STR 
inflation. 
  
> Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance, 
> and the height of the wielder.  Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using a 
> halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed does 
> not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different 
> place? 
 
No one could ever use a halberd one-handed  regradless of how strong oyu 
are.  The weapon is anywhere from 7' to 9' long and is used like an axe, 
you need two hands to simply hold it properly, not to mention swing it.  A 
spear can be used one-handed, but only to stab and thrust (the Norse did 
this, combining spear and sheild.  The Greeks and Romans did it as well.) 
  
You would usually hold the weapon in an over-hand (over the shoulder) grip 
and thrust with it. 
 
There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of 
strength.  The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding 
factor. 
 
> If all the above is correct, how many levels of Growth or Shrinking does a 
> character need to gain or lose the ability to use certain weapons--for each 
> of the "hands"?  That is, a 3 foot gnome might need 2 hands to use a small 
> spear, but could not use a broadsword regardless of STR. 
 
No, the three-foot gnome would treat a human-sized broadsword as if it was 
a greatsword.  He'd use two hands to wield it.  A single level of 
shrinking is enough to make many two-handed human weapons unusable, and 
turn most one-handed human weapons into two-handers.  Going the other way, 
two levels of Growth are probably sufficent to allow one to use certain 
two-handed human weapons into one handers.  I'd limit it to swords, axes 
and maces myself.  Any staff weapon will not benefit by the weilding using 
only one hand due to his size.  OTOH: one would have to look at the staff 
weapon in question.  Some, such as certain Locaber axes and Bardiches will 
work okay one-handed, others may not.  The weapons will simply be too 
clumsy. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:20:48 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
>>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4 
>>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8 
>>Tiger  1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12 
>>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15 
>>Bear   1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20 
>>Dragon  2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40 
>>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength)  60 
 
> bunch of stuff snipped < 
 
>   Of course not.  If the player doesn't want to mess with the finer 
points 
>of the construction system, then he can just take the Shoulder Cannon II 
>as-is.  If he does, then he can use the weapons on the list as models for 
>starting points.  Or he can just build from scratch, like most of us have 
>already been doing. 
>   That's the main thing that construct lists are for -- simplifying 
>character construction for those who need it.  Creating the 
above-mentioned 
>standard is a secondary reason; it would probably be enough of a reason by 
>tself, but (IMO) making the character creation process easier for newbies 
>s a more significant and compelling reason. 
 
Another secondary purpose is making house rules more understandable as 
such.  If there is a standard, then it is easier to explain house rules as 
deviations from that standard.  I've never been to a large convention.  So 
I cannot speak for the problems house rules might have caused there.  But I 
can say that none of the players in our group are under any illusions about 
playing standard Hero. 
 
Think about it.  I might tell all the players something like:  "All these 
standard claws are too weak for my campaign.  Bump every damage class up a 
notch."  If tiger claws on a character are listed as Tiger claws, 1 1/2d6 
HKA--then the player moves the character to another campaign--a GM that 
doesn't agree with me has a clue about what the heck the player was doing.  
If I've provided a list of house rules to my players (and I have), then the 
player can show those to the new GM. 
 
Of course, that can be done without components--it's just that components 
make it so much easier and less error-prone. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:19:43 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:46 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> <clip> 
>>    The television isn't the source of the light against by which the 
>> intended target is being seen, though.  The intended target isn't 
>> reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no 
>> problem.)  The screen is *becoming* the target.  It's *creating* the image 
>> of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly 
>> from the intended target. 
> 
>So what your saying is only light diretly reflected from the target can be 
used to 
>attack a target, that the light that the camera is viewing that is directly 
>reflected from the taget, encoded and then deencoded is somehow different 
then 
>light directly relected.  Please explain how? 
 
   It's simply what's been said all along: the deencoded light is light 
from an artificial image of the intended target, and not the intended 
target itself. 
 
>>    That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is 
>> the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms).  He's not using his 
>> own vision to target.  To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret 
>> what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target, 
>> but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual 
>> targeting. 
>>    A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a 
>> rule, have the benefit of such a system. 
> 
>So agent using a gun with an attached Heads up Display is not targeting his 
>weapon, the HUD is targetting ir for him?  My interpreation of this is 
that the 
>dot on the HUD is skill levels (supplied by the computer).  That is 
additional 
>targeting information to give the shooter a better chance to hit.  The 
Nordens 
>bomb sight didn't aim and drop the bombs.  The bomb sight gave the bombadier 
>better infomation to drop the bombs with, in other word additional skill 
levels 
>and telescopic vision through a focus.  That's all the HUD systems are, skill 
>levels supplied by the onboard computer aiding the pilot/gunner in taking the 
>shot.  Just like the attachable HUD's that are becoming so popular in target 
>shooting these days. The sight doesn't do the targeting, it gives the shooter 
>additional skill levels aid in hitting the target. 
 
   The dot on the HUD is the Targeting element on the system.  It enables 
the agent to use the HUD, and no other system, to aim the weapon.  Without 
the HUD, he would not be able to aim the weapon.  It's him that's doing the 
aiming, but the HUD -- not the video system alone -- gives him the 
information necessary to aim it. 
   Now, there are probably Skill Levels involved in a HUD; that would be 
the reason that attachable HUDs are useful.  I'd certainly give anywhere 
from 4 to 8 Skill Levels for it.  But without it, the agent operating that 
larger system isn't just "not quite as good" at aiming the missile; he 
can't do it at all, at least not without some external help or some darned 
good guesswork. 
 
>Back to mentalist, the TV only gives the mentalist the possiblity of taking a 
>shot.  The possiblity of success depends on situation and the amount of 
>information given. 
 
   To give Line of Sight in Hero Terms, and therefore be considered a 
Targeting Sense, the TV would have to *consistently* give enough 
information *all by itself* that the viewer would *consistently* be able to 
tell exactly what direction the subject on the screen was from from him, 
and how far.  Short of that, it's no more than a source of information with 
which the mentalist can *attempt* to attack -- but as I've said (and you've 
agreed), he'd really be firing blind, shooting at a spot and hoping it 
makes it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:15 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Ross Rannells 
> 
> Filksinger wrote: 
> 
<snip> 
 
> > 
> > Unfortunately, while it is clearly intended, it isn't quite stated that way. 
> > Things which are stated in one part of the book (attacks of various 
> > sorts) are also stated to be possible with a "Targeting Sense". Thus, 
> > for purposes of attacks in Hero, a "Targeting Sense" gives "LOS", 
> > even though there may be no line or sight involved. 
> > 
> > Filksinger 
> > 
> > ____________________________________________________________________ 
> > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
> 
>   So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way.  The 
> way it appears to 
> me is that the location of the target needs to be known.  Whether the location 
> is thruough 
> seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan).  Either 
> way once the 
> location is known, other mental powers may be used. 
 
That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that 
interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall would be "line 
of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far. 
 
>Under your interpretation, 
> where line of 
> sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight.  Then live 
> video feeds would 
> not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their 
> powers.  Where as 
> in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or 
> line of sight 
> will is suffiecient for this.  Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as 
> ruled by the GM) 
> would allow for the attack.  The reason I like this interpetation is that it 
> opens up a whole 
> new set of complications for the heros to deal with. 
 
It also gives mentalists a massive increase in power, heavily unbalancing a game. People 
with Desolidification can attack while untouchable, but pay a +2 Advantage on every power 
used under these circumstances, need to buy special weaknesses to their invulnerability, 
are vulnerable to Powers with Affects Desolidification, and have to pay END. A mentalist 
attacking people on TV gets all of these benefits without any of these limitations, and 
gets it for free. Mentalists who want abilities like this have to pay for them with Mind 
Scan now, which has it's own problems, but this gives it away for free. 
 
You want this ability? Fine. Buy Clairvoyance, IPE, only to see locations he can already 
see on TV (-2), only for targeting mental powers (-1), with a range to cover the Earth. 
This should cost about 200 Active points and 50 Real Points, which is about what such a 
potent power would be worth. Keep in mind that other limitations such as "Needs in depth 
knowledge of location of target, either by KS: of target's location or careful 
measurement" would bring it down more. Alternatives include a similarly limited Mind Scan, 
or a bonus to Mind Scan if it is already purchased. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:43 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net] 
> 
<snip> 
> 
> I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence.  It's telescopic vision, with 
> usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and a large area 
> of effect.  So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through binoculars 
> and not through a CRT? 
 
By the time I get done trying to make it fit your definition, I would effectively have 
redefined Clairsentience as telescopic vision. By your reasoning, Clairvoyance shouldn't 
even exist. I cannot determine what it is about a TV that makes it more Telescopic Vision 
than Clairvoyance. 
 
It takes much fewer Limitations, Advantages, and other Powers to make Clairvoyance work 
than Telescopic Sense. Half the changes I have to make in Telescopic Sense to allow it to 
work (sees through walls, different point of view, etc.) are already part of Clairvoyance. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from filkhero@usa.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: RE: By the way, I need a character name... 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:46 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Sparx 
>  
>  
> Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another.  This one is a  
> lot simpler though.  Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick?  Not  
> incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers.  Heck,  
> might even get delayed teleport :)  Thanks in advance.  Take it easy and  
> talk at you later. 
>  
Mind Block? 
 
<G,D,&R,VVF> 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:23:59 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:04 PM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say 
>> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having 
>> ever said it on this List: 
>>    Your way of constructing it is wrong.  Absolutely, totally wrong. 
>>    Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the 
>> viewer and the target.  This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.* 
> 
>My mistake.  I wasn't clear enough here.  The telescopi vision I was 
refering to 
>is that of the zoom lense on the camera.  The camera itself is a point of 
>Clairasentience that has telescopic vision.  Anything in front of the camera 
>lence is blocked.  After looking back over my posts, I realize I never 
maid this 
>clear.  I apologize for my inaccuracy. 
 
   Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target 
an attack.  As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to 
gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind" 
attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms). 
   (Apology accepted.)  :-] 
 
>>   Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would 
>> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting.  This is what the 
>> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide.  Using a 
>> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect 
>> for this.  But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into 
>> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it. 
> 
>The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels.  That's what a 
HUD 
>does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information 
about 
>the target you are shooting at.  The base system (ie no additional skill 
levels) 
>is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece.  The computer then adds 
details and 
>information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels.  The 
>weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just 
>that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced. 
 
   No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance.  The TV system itself (actually 
the camera) is Clairvoyance.  The crosshairs are the system which turns the 
Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense.  Otherwise the gunner is just 
extrapolating information into educated guesswork. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 16:49:23 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength 
>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
>    I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post. 
 
Just that inches of Flight and mass of the flyer and what he is carrying 
have no relevance to each other.  A 60 Strength character with 10" of 
flight can fly 10" per action whether he carries nothing or a 100 ton 
object, even if that character himself has a mass of 100 tons. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXHCTJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGD6gP/aTqqtg28C1HTYQTEcvtwhCxd/apEMarh 
HQ52kv9ZDMk9YjB+NlPMgXJzaCG7SLKxENDlvsZKVcFEP1+CsIkcXc93UMGTcbQO 
sRcSUaRkMS8HQJ0dfWNpctHfu7ECAE0AxaRc7Se8vikq6a4N75o/ru+OA8h5uCuT 
UWzZqA0vq5M= 
=SOid 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:50:26 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
happyelf wrote: 
 
> > 
> > Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense 
> > color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue" 
> > cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet. 
> > 
>  
> like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*.  
 
Confusion reigns: this has nothing whatsoever to do with a dopplar  
effect, so I am not sure what you are getting at. 
 
The retina works by photoreactive pigments.  Pigments respond to light by  
absorption.   The absorption cross-section always varies by frequency;    
for wavelengths of interest, this will have the approximate form  
exp[-(l-k)^2*s], where l is the wavelength being measured, k is the  
wavelength of the absorption peak and s is a sensitivity factor.  I am  
ignoring amplitude, which is certainly part of the equation, but not of  
interest here, and leaving the result unnormalized. 
 
In a three color reception system, the pigments have absorption peaks of  
i<j<k.  Assuming no attenuation from the optics and identical sensitivity  
factors, a wavelength of L will result in an ordered triplet that  
uniquely identifies the color: 
 
	exp[-(L-i)^2*s]; exp[-(L-j)^2*s]; exp[-(L-k)^2*s] 
 
Successfully detecting colors with wavelengths < i is not only possible,  
but unavoidable.  As we approach the upper limit of sensitivity, the  
triplets will start to look like (X,0,0), with X decreasing with  
increasing frequency.  There is nothing "backwards" about this, and it  
certainly does not involve a Dopplar effect, which is the change in  
apparent wavelength with the relative velocity of the source and  
observer. 
 
Note that a high sensitivity factor will allow fine color discrimination,  
but will narrow the useful range of the pigment.  This is why a two-color  
system is inferior to a three-color system: if pigments with a high color  
sensitivity are used, the range of colors will be restricted; if pigments  
with a wide color range are used, color discrimination will be low. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 17:03:28 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes: 
 
> (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.) 
> Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not 
> appear to limit in any way?  For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield 
> the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as 
> if no limitation was taken.  By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the 
> STR min by 2. 
 
I think you are not reading it right. 
 
Two-handed weapons get a limitation mostly because they require two hands 
to use, even if you have sufficient strength to wield it with one hand.  It 
is simply too unwieldly to use with one hand.  This is especially important 
for things like melee weapons, because you cannot use a shield properly 
without a free hand. 
 
One-handed weapons do not get this limitation. 
 
Hand-and-a-half weapons can be used with either one or two hands, so it 
gets a limitation between the two.  It is not getting the limitation 
because of the StrMin. 
 
Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded with 
one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two hands. 
That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXHFnp6VRH7BJMxHAQH2kAQAozmhBqW05c6TojwKqjV4uvBFobiTAJf3 
UorWbfYUkoX09dn60w5d2O1J3+m2ZuGYEdQlmLHs1FbKawaHvidILZdJjeIRzKNP 
s5wlnb1iD5kjAozMBX/9x+B9rmTHNbwDuvN+rKOzcSaXApFxZPJpDoKsDkV5bNpX 
qMxOKiPwk3A= 
=qpJQ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:21:34 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,    dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Bob Greenwade writes: 
>  
> >    Hm... am I, then, not the only person on the list who can hear the white 
> > of a CRT, thus being able to tell by hearing when a TV is on even when the 
> > volume is completely off?  :-] 
>  
> No, you are not. 
>  
> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal. 
 
Unusual?  I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a  
TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp.  Even I can still hear those! 
 
I assume that one is hearing the hysterisis-induced vibrations from the  
flyback transformer.  525 lines x 30 frames/second for a standard TV is  
15.75KHz: a mere perfect fourth above the highest note on the Wanamaker  
Organ in Philadelphia. 
 
BTW, the Guiness Book of World Records notes that children with asthma  
"commonly" hear frequencies in excess of 30KHz. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from robtwest@erols.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:03:47 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sparx wrote: 
>  
 
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport 
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super 
> power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe 
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this 
> would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking 
> when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect  
of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports.  He takes a full  
action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase  
2, having used a full action.  Once started, the character has no way to  
stop the long-range teleport.  This can be very convenient (he isn't  
there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower  
just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed  
elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital  
because he wasn't anywhere).  IMO, the advantages and disadvantages  
cancel out. 
 
If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time  
limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes  
back, and cannot affect the physical world.  It would probably be abusive  
to take recoveries in transit. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from robtwest@erols.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:03:47 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sparx wrote: 
>  
 
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport 
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later.  This is his own super 
> power.  But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe 
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension.  Any clue how this 
> would be built?  Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking 
> when I'm asking, but we'll see.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect  
of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports.  He takes a full  
action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase  
2, having used a full action.  Once started, the character has no way to  
stop the long-range teleport.  This can be very convenient (he isn't  
there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower  
just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed  
elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital  
because he wasn't anywhere).  IMO, the advantages and disadvantages  
cancel out. 
 
If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time  
limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes  
back, and cannot affect the physical world.  It would probably be abusive  
to take recoveries in transit. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m4.boston.juno.com from llwatts@juno.com server @m4.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.198 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4,6-7,9-11,17-19 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:09:00 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>>Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs...  Let  
>>>them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.   
     
>>While this is an excellent idea, I think it might make for a somewhat 
grimmer  
>>tone than I'd like to use in a "Golden Age" campaign; perhaps it's 
enough of a  
>>moral dilemma that they must use Mastermind's own research to gain  
>>super-powers, knowing that Mastermind sacrificed innocent lives to 
create the  
>>Zarathustra formula. 
 
One of the ingredients could be something that is unavailable in the PC's 
home time/world, but available in the 1940's.  If Mastermind is anywhere 
near smart enough to pull this plan off, he's keeping his eyes open for 
anyone collecting the needed supplies to whip up a batch of the formula 
-- and if one of the ingredients is unusually rare, he's probably got all 
of it under lock and key. 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo corinna.its.utas.edu.au from h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au server root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au ip 131.217.10.51 
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:13:55 +1000 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:02 AM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
> 
>> Most people forget that spacecraft design IS rocket science.  Of course, 
>> you need heavy duty math to figure this stuff out.  :-) 
> 
>As an interesting aside, right now nobody in the world knows how to build a 
>Saturn V rocket.  The design notes were accidentally destroyed, and 
>everyone on the design team is dead, now. 
 
I sense a conspiracy here.... 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo corinna.its.utas.edu.au from h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au server root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au ip 131.217.10.51 
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:14:28 +1000 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:44 PM 5/25/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
> 
>> Let me try another slant on this.  Would everyone agree that there are 3 
>> fairly distinct GM activities? 
>> 	#1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever 
>> 	#2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc. 
>> 	#3 Running the game. 
>>  
>> All RPGs give you #3, and I'm not really very concerned with it.  Most RPGs 
>> give you some guidelines and examples on #2.  But very few (maybe only 
>> Hero) gives you #1.  Yeah, the other games give you a list of things.  This 
>> is what GURPs mostly does, especially in their magic and psionic sections.  
>> Anyone want to take a crack at adding spells to GURPs?  You can do it, but 
>> it's all just judgment call and then playtest it--same as for AD&D, 
>> Rolemaster, you name it. 
> 
>IMODO, a fantasy RPG without a spell creation system is almost as unplayable 
>as a superhero game without a power creation system - but now that you 
>mention it, Ars Magica and Fantasy Hero are the only fantasy games I can 
>think of that have one. 
> 
Earthdawn by FASA has one. It's not perfect but it's there. 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo corinna.its.utas.edu.au from h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au server root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au ip 131.217.10.51 
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:14:40 +1000 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:30 PM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Trevor Barrie writes: 
> 
>> One could argue that, if the GM feels that it makes sense for incredibly 
>> good climbing skill to perform such feats, he or she will use the 
>> Extraordinary Skill rules; if they don't, they're probably not going to 
>> allow this character concept into their campaign. 
> 
>A point that I already made. 
> 
>> I don't think this argument holds for the super-hero genre, though; the 
>> Extraordinary Skill rules are fairly clearly inappropriate to that genre, 
>> but "super-skill" types are fairly common. 
> 
>Remember that the construct came out of "Dark Champions", a setting in 
>which the characters are on a scale similar to superagents.  Full-blown 
>superskills are not really appropriate for that type of setting, but 
>extraordinary skills are. 
 
So in Dark Champions you'd allow someone with Breakfall to fall from a 
plane and not take damage? The example in the book. 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo corinna.its.utas.edu.au from h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au server root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au ip 131.217.10.51 
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:16:49 +1000 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:58 PM 5/27/98 -0700, John Desmarais wrote: 
>---Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote: 
>> 
>> You guys want to change the name of this thread to "How complicated 
>FH"?  
>> We FH fans seem to be the only ones interested.  :-) 
 
Well I don't think I have the in depth system knowledge to really comment 
on it. 
 
>>  
>> Does that mean that Hero is about right for Champions, but 
>complicated for 
>> other genres? 
 
I think that Champions is much better at modelling some genres than others. 
I also think that the dependence on Special Effect can cause people to 
struggle with it in some Genre's. I can't think of an example off the top 
of my head though, I also think that the special effects would cause 
problems for people used to some other game systems. 
  
Also as the arguments about 250 point cops showed there will be widely 
different levels of skill use necessary in different types of games. 
 
> 
>Well, it's strength is certainly the superhero genre, but I've never 
>felt it was too complicated for other genres (although I've never 
>tried to a do something like Toon with it). 
 
I don't know how i'd do comedy in Hero, I suspect I'd be simplifying things 
somewhat and making combat a fair bit safer but I'd need a lot of thought 
for it. 
> 
>As for why FH comes up so much - a couple of reasons.  One, other than 
>Champions, it's the genre that has gotten the most publisher support.  
>Also, most games get their start with D&D or AD&D, so when you're 
>trying to convert players FH is a pretty good route to take - you get 
>the Hero rules, but a setting that's more or less familiar to the 
>players. 
 
Also have a look at any roleplaying game list and see how many of the 
systems are fantasy, it's a high percentage (although possibly not as high 
now as a couple of years back) Fantasy is probably still the major 
roleplaying genre. 
 
>  If the only system you know is (A)D&D, just by nature of 
>being different, Hero can seem complicated (actually, I don't think 
>it's really a problem with seeming complicated, but seeming daunting - 
>the whole idea of "you can build whatever kind of character you want" 
>can really throw people who think in terms of "roll some dice, pick a 
>class, pick a race, etc...) 
 
I know that I found it hard to adjust to Hero, possibly because I'd come 
through D&D, AD&D & Earthdawn as my major roleplaying games (I tried Marvel 
& DC heroes for superhero games first as well), I still find it hard to 
build super hero characters to 250 points (possibly because I love flexible 
characters, my latest headaches are a mystical brick and a cyborg with 
cyberkinesis) 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 May 1998 21:47:03 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Mad Hamish writes: 
 
>> Remember that the construct came out of "Dark Champions", a setting in 
>> which the characters are on a scale similar to superagents.  Full-blown 
>> superskills are not really appropriate for that type of setting, but 
>> extraordinary skills are. 
 
> So in Dark Champions you'd allow someone with Breakfall to fall from a 
> plane and not take damage? The example in the book. 
 
I'd be more inclined (or at least just as inclined) to allow that as I 
would allow someone to "climb" a wall by running rilly-rilly fast. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXIIFp6VRH7BJMxHAQEXkwQAuxwAOj3uXU+I69rOj/eQ58gt50B19PcZ 
k55psLUsbKaLSIwvwf4+ruDHqfoi341fCQOEObQ31FAyhiIPxB3v59h3embWqMcN 
iNMuWpWsL6E6F/sohZLvatAsTiBxBJcnhoDtvYJwXSRuXFFiIkNkxR9XKvXYM/rn 
0zbHPagoEgE= 
=rjkn 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:32:42 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>One of the ingredients could be something that is unavailable in the PC's 
>home time/world, but available in the 1940's.   
 
Like original Coke?    :) 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:34:04 -0400 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:26 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very 
>>long on examples of complete creatures.  Of course, that would be a more 
>>late-90s name for the Beastiary. 
> 
>   Don't be so sure.  When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his 
>reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book.  Of course, 
>this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM 
>for sheer size. 
 
I said "short on how" not "short in length".  It will be a big book.  (And 
TUSV sounds like a large book to me.  Steve must not have really thought 
about it.) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:01:57 -0400 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 03:08 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc.  This is why I'm having a 
>>problem with it.  Claws depend on the size of the creature using them. 
>>There is not a lot of variation in claws.  How does a list of mouse to 
>>dragon claws really help?  I don't see it.  What value does this have? 
>> 
>>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4 
>>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8 
>>Tiger  1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12 
>>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15 
>>Bear   1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20 
>>Dragon  2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40 
>>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength)  60 
> 
>   That table would be a good start.  Some of these will be 1/2 END (the 
>feline ones) while other will be 0 END.  The Dragon's claws might have 
>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be 
>Penetrating. 
 
Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws?  That would make the strength 
addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END. 
Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END. 
Dragon: Okay, throw in AP. 
Bearcat: never heard of it. 
 
>   Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard. 
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
>Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster and 
>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons 
charts. 
 
But you still have to write 1D6 HKA on the character sheet or else you'll 
have to refer to the chart while playing. 
 
>   Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard. 
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
>Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster and 
>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons 
charts. 
>[...] 
>   You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced 
>Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla).  As I 
>pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's 
>even more variation that can be had. 
 
But, it is not realistic.  Why felines?  Why not just call them Claws I and 
Claws II at that point?  It's just as much a part of normal life as 
Shoulder Cannon II. 
 
I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it. 
Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate.  Godzilla is huge 
and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA.  (I think I stole that from 
a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.) 
 
>[...]  And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of 
>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty 
>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature, 
>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation, 
>and *then* getting it down. 
 
I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the 
minority there. 
 
>>Okay.  Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble 
>>with.  The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two 
>>paragraphs of text.  Poison would be its own section. 
> 
>   It depends, of course, on how many variations on claws you have. 
>Retractable claws would be slightly different from those that are out all 
>the time (I was using 1/2 END vs 0 END above).  Particularly tough claws 
>(like those of a bearcat) would have some Advantage like AP or Penetrating. 
 
Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the 
Red.Pen. limitation.  The claws would have to be spiked or something to 
include AP. 
 
>   The idea (IMO) is to enable newbie players to tell the GM, "Based on my 
>concept as being yada-yada, I want Construct X from The Ultimate Whatever," 
 
If you have a newbie saying "based on my concept", you have a newbie who 
will not need these constructs.  Newbies usually have the most trouble 
deciding what they will be when they hear that they can be "anything." 
 
>and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X 
>back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks 
>to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly.  Secondarily, should the 
>player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the 
>GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than 
>having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his 
>math. 
 
So this theoretical GM knows Construct X from TUW and doesn't need the 
Power with Advantages and Limitations explained?  (Not that TUW means 
anything to me.)  He still needs the power, the character's STR to compare 
against his DC limit for his game. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-5.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.135 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:02:22 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id AAA07769 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded 
with 
> one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two hands. 
> That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play. 
 
But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using a 
weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it either 
one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR min). This 
seems to be a case of a Limitation that is actually an advantage. It would 
seem more logical that the 1 1/2 handed Limitation would result in a weapon 
that could be used eiter two-handed (at the normal STR min) or one-handed 
at an increased STR min). 
 
Of course, for normal weapons off the list in a heroic level game, the 
point is academic, but when the character is building a special weapon that 
he/she needs to expend points on, it becomes important. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:05:28 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Points 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Steven Mitchell (mdmitche@advicom.net) wrote: 
> 
>Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-) 
> 
>I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled. 
 
>three resons snipped... 
 
I don't know that I'd like to see all the point costs doubled as much as I 
might like to see the resolution increased for everything, effectively 
increasing all the point costs. 
 
250 point supers work fine, but when I try to build 50 or 25 point 
high-schoolers for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign, I run into trouble 
making one big, strong guy different from another, or giving them enough 
skills to be fun to play but still appropriate for the campaign's power 
level.  There are just so many fewer "break points" at lower point values. 
 
It'd be nice to be able to feel like I have as many options when building my 
character regardless of the campaign power level: perhaps some way to make 
power level and point-value independent? 
 
There's a dark hole to crawl into for little good reason.... 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:05:29 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re:Delayed Teleport 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sparx wrote: 
 
>Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here.  I noticed I left that  
>part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in  
>Champions terms.  Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now  
>that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into  
>the dimension and not come out until his next phase.  Or for more fun, not  
>come out until he wants to.   Or yet even more fun, length of time depends  
>on distance of teleport.  Now, let's take friends along :)   Ok, I have now  
>thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way. 
 
An option for Extra-Dimensional Movement is to make movement in the "extra" 
dimension relative to the "regular" dimension.  So why not use EDM to move 
to another, big, white dimension with nothing in it (like where those 
dancers in the GAP khakis commercials live but after they've gone home so 
it's empty now) and run or walk or fly or whatever as far as you want to go 
then EDM back to the "regular" universe at a point relative to the one you 
moved to? 
 
That'd take a couple of phases with elapsed time depending on the distance. 
Kind of expensive maybe.... 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:39:04 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting. 
 
I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few 
sends.  The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry 
tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be of 
much use to me. 
 
A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws 
with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me. 
You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor 
Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may 
be useful with. 
 
For example: 
The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal 
claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters like 
dragons or something.  You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as many 
DCs as you wish. 
 
Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the 
"reasonably common" defenses for them.  Standardizing some of these powers 
and defenses would be very helpful. 
 
This brings up another issue: 
The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific.  An 
NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be 
allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe other 
defenses. 
 
I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as 
Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific 
campaigns.  I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books. 
Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?  In other 
words, the Fantasy HERO book is pretty good, but the Western Shores sucks as 
a campaign milieu.  Why not let people publish their own campaigns, complete 
with magic systems, races, monsters and all that?  Isn't this where these 
lists of powers-as-special-effects are headed?  Won't there be lists for 
Mecha gear, medieval weapons, space weapons and technology, etc.?  Why 
confine all these to the HERO Universe?  Why not populate a bunch of 
universes, each with a campaign book? 
 
Rather than a book with lists of claws, bites, and ancient magic scepters, 
I'd like to see Joe Smith's Arabian Nights HERO with it's own magic, 
monsters, and whatever.  Someone's always posting write-ups of characters 
from movies, novels, TV shows.  Let's see the campaigns those characters 
belong to.  Sure, some will overlap and may fit together (Action Movie HERO 
or Gritty Police Drama HERO or World-of-Darkness-LITE! HERO) but there 
should be a forum where these sorts of things can appear. 
 
What do you think? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Double Points 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:57:22 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Grant Enfield writes: 
>Steven Mitchell (mdmitche@advicom.net) wrote: 
>> 
>>Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-) 
>> 
>>I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled. 
> 
>>three resons snipped... 
> 
>I don't know that I'd like to see all the point costs doubled as much as I 
>might like to see the resolution increased for everything, effectively 
>increasing all the point costs. 
 
I suggested doubling the points, then changing the resolution once it's a 
little easier to do (with the doubled points).  Incidently, doubling is not 
arbitrary.  I've tried 1/2 points, 1/3 points, 1/10 points, and even 1/100 
points using the current system.  It always boiled down to anything smaller 
than 1/2 was a very specific experiment--I might keep it or not, but it 
didn't really apply to anything else.  OTOH, once you start using 1/2 
points, you find all kinds of uses for them.  You listed one of them: 
 
>250 point supers work fine, but when I try to build 50 or 25 point 
>high-schoolers for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign, I run into trouble 
>making one big, strong guy different from another, or giving them enough 
>skills to be fun to play but still appropriate for the campaign's power 
>level.  There are just so many fewer "break points" at lower point values. 
 
Another is getting rid of annoying progressions.  Example, build TK powers 
in nice even (Hero) increments of 5, 10, 15, etc. STR.  But TK is 3 CP/ 2 
STR.  So you either fudge a little, or just give 6 STR instead of 5.  (I 
fudge.)  With double points, it's 3 CP/ 1 STR--no problem.  I'm sure the 
list readers can point out many more. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Thor vs. Captain America 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:58:40 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Bob Greenwade 
> 
> 
<snip> 
>    I've neither read the book nor seen the movie, I just got a private 
> email from someone who tells me (much to my surprise) that the town in 
> which it takes place in Corvallis (where I am)! 
>    I'm curious if the landmarks and other features of Corvallis, Oregon 
> were used, or if the name was just drawn up by Mr. Brin because it sounded 
> interesting (there's a guy in Virginia whose given name is Corvallis, just 
> because his father found the name on the map and thought it sounded neat). 
 
Well, as I recall, most of the activity in the book took place out of town. However, the 
University was key to part of the book, as it was apparently the home of the only 
surviving superintelligent superconducting supercomputer. The collapse of civilization 
preceding the book took place a significant distance into the future, though not more than 
a few decades from when it was written. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:04:58 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Jeff Reid writes: 
>> Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded 
with 
>> one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two 
hands. 
>> That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play. 
 
>But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using 
a 
>weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it either 
>one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR min). This 
>seems to be a case of a Limitation that is actually an advantage. It would 
>seem more logical that the 1 1/2 handed Limitation would result in a 
weapon 
>that could be used eiter two-handed (at the normal STR min) or one-handed 
>at an increased STR min). 
 
>Of course, for normal weapons off the list in a heroic level game, the 
>point is academic, but when the character is building a special weapon 
that 
>he/she needs to expend points on, it becomes important. 
 
That's precisely the point of the question.  Also, I'm not even close to 
being a weapons expert, but I've always understood that a 1.5 handed weapon 
was somewhat of a distinct animal because of the hilt length--there's not a 
whole lot extra (to keep it short as possible for 1 handed use), but 
there's enough to give the second hand a reason for being there. 
 
Presumably, that's another reason why a 3' gnome could use a broadsword as 
a greatsword--his hands are proportionally smaller.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo26.mx.aol.com from firelynx16@aol.com server @imo26.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.70 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:17:43 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
In a message dated 98-05-31 12:04:50 EDT, you write: 
 
>   
>  I have no problem visualizing your string.  What I have a problem with is  
> how it 
>  gets broken by the various translations the light goes through when it  
> travels 
>  from the camera to the CRT. 
 
It gets broken because Sight (normal sight, seeing with your eyes) ends at the 
tv screen.  Normal eyesight doesn't see beyond the screen.  The Target, the 
person you have to *detect* with your Targeting Sense (sight) has not been 
detected.  You understand that for LoS to be established, you must *detect* 
your target with your targeting sense, right?  That means for Sight, you must 
*see your target*.  Looking at a tv screen does not do that.  Sight cannot 
'see' along electrical wires and transmitters.  Seeing the general location is 
irrelevant for LoS.  Mind Scan is another thing entirely.  A tv could 
certainly help.  All I'm talking about is LoS.  And since you cannot see *the 
target*, (not a picture of the target), LoS isn't established. 
>   
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I think I've gotten too complicated in this.  Let's simplify.  In order 
to 
>  > establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with 
a 
>  > targeting sense.  A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/ 
> her 
>  > sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target.  They are only 
> able 
>  > to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen.   
> Therefore, 
>  > LoS cannot be established.  Period. 
>   
>  Here is where we disagree.  If enough contextual information is given on 
the 
>  screen then the location of the target may be deterimined.  IMO this gives  
> the 
>  egoist the possiblity of using their powers 
 
Sure, if it's Mind Scan we're talking about.  General location would help 
tremendously.  But we're talking about LoS.  Or at least, that's what I'm 
talking about. 
>   
>  > It doesn't matter if the image is a live 
>  > feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of 
>  > showing an electronic reproduction.   Targeting senses work the same for 
a 
>  > mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have  
> to be 
>  > able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them.  A 
sniper 
>  > aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no  
> stretch 
>  > of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were 
hiding 
>  > behind the tv, maybe)  They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv.  Same goes 
> for 
>  > mentalists. 
>   
>  The targetting sence for mentalist, IMO, is knowing the location of the 
mind  
> of 
>  the target. 
 
Not the location of the mind, but rather just being able to see the target. 
pg 147..... "Mental Combat works on a line-of-sight basis; if an attacker can 
see the target, he can affect him with no Range Modifier."  That's why the tv 
example doesn't work, because you aren't *seeing* your target, you're seeing 
an image of him. 
 
> Line of Sight and Mind Scan are two ways of knowing this.  It  
> comes 
>  down to interpreting a part of the rules that are not spelled out.  Are 
line  
> of 
>  sight and mind scan two parts of the same thing or are they two seperate  
> things. 
 
They are separate things.  To attack, mentalists must be able to see their 
targets.  Mind Scan supersedes this requirement.  When MS is established, it 
becomes a Targeting Sense. 
 
'Lynx 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo18.mx.aol.com from firelynx16@aol.com server @imo18.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.40 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:24:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up 
on the ground.  If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make 
sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright.  But 
beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some 
blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander. 
Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet. 
 
This came up in the game tonight, and it made me wonder.  I couldn't find 
anything one way or the other in the book.   
 
How do y'all handle this? 
 
'Lynx 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG) 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:39:26 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Grant Enfield writes: 
>I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting. 
 
>I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few 
>sends.  The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry 
>tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be 
of 
>much use to me. 
 
>A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws 
>with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me. 
>You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor 
>Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may 
>be useful with. 
 
>For example: 
>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal 
>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters 
like 
>dragons or something.  You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as 
many 
>DCs as you wish. 
 
This is actually how most of my own components currently look.  I've been 
assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented.  I suppose it is 
really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how 
complicated the table is.  The one thing you do lose with a table is the 
host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may 
or may not be a problem. 
 
>Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the 
>"reasonably common" defenses for them.  Standardizing some of these powers 
>and defenses would be very helpful. 
 
I find it helps to break up all "campaign allowed" special effects into 
-1/4 limitation amounts, then count down from -2.  Then I can be consistent 
on defenses.  My haymaker 17 submission has a short article along those 
lines.  For example, I think "only against electrical attacks" are worth -2 
in my campaign--so one effect.  OTOH, fire is broken down into normal fire 
and magical fire, each worth -1/4.  So "only against fire attacks" are 
worth -1 1/2.  When you get up around 5 or more effects, you start needing 
2 or 3 to get another -1/4 decrease. 
 
>This brings up another issue: 
>The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific.  An 
>NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be 
>allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe 
other 
>defenses. 
 
See previous response.  Yea--you are going where I've been trying to go!  
What should be presented in the HSR, or FH, or whatever "general" book is 
appropriate, is the "pattern" of the component, with a few approachable 
examples. 
 
>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as 
>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for 
specific 
>campaigns.  I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books. 
>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?  In other 
>words, the Fantasy HERO book is pretty good, but the Western Shores sucks 
as 
>a campaign milieu.  Why not let people publish their own campaigns, 
complete 
>with magic systems, races, monsters and all that?  Isn't this where these 
>lists of powers-as-special-effects are headed?  Won't there be lists for 
>Mecha gear, medieval weapons, space weapons and technology, etc.?  Why 
>confine all these to the HERO Universe?  Why not populate a bunch of 
>universes, each with a campaign book? 
 
Now this is what I've been leading up to.  You anticipated me.  The point 
of the components, meta Hero, patterns, and examples is to make those 
campaign books possible--and much easier to write.  Where something matches 
the campaign, the author can just say, "We use claw list (or table) #1 from 
FH," or maybe not say anything at all beyond "if it's not listed here, use 
the FH rules and examples."  When something is close, the author can list 
the exceptions, rather than repeating a lot.  Even when the campaign does 
something completely differently, the other work still helps.  If a 
component starts showing up in lots of different campaign books, that's a 
dead giveaway for Hero Games to include it in the next edition of a more 
general book. 
 
>Rather than a book with lists of claws, bites, and ancient magic scepters, 
>I'd like to see Joe Smith's Arabian Nights HERO with it's own magic, 
>monsters, and whatever.  Someone's always posting write-ups of characters 
>from movies, novels, TV shows.  Let's see the campaigns those characters 
>belong to.  Sure, some will overlap and may fit together (Action Movie 
HERO 
>or Gritty Police Drama HERO or World-of-Darkness-LITE! HERO) but there 
>should be a forum where these sorts of things can appear. 
 
When Joe Smith writes his campaign, he might get down to the effects list 
and say, "None of these are going to work."  But the pattern is establish.  
So he thinks maybe he ought to provide an effects list for his campaign 
book, too. 
 
The other thing he needs to provide is conversion information from more 
general resources.  That might be as simple as a list of which creatures 
from the Bestiary are appropriate in the campaign, or it might be several 
pages on how to changes specific types. 
 
>What do you think? 
 
Obviously, I'm all for it.  The only other piece of the puzzle I can see 
missing is a notation and framework--to make all the cross-referencing 
easier.  It doesn't really matter what it is--as long as SOMETHING is 
adopted.  Assuming the software pattern holds. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:44:23 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie writes: 
>Trouble is, a Killing Attack will still do more STUN-after-defenses on 
>average than a Normal Attack of the same DCs. (Unless your campaign has 
>an unusually low defense-to-attack AP ratio.) 
 
Well, the difference is fairly trivial, and is almost entirely due to the  
rare combination of rolling a near-maximum for BODY and 5x for STUN.   
Here is the complete comparison chart for DCs divisible by 3.  The number  
shown is the additional number of points of STUN done by a killing attack  
over a normal attack of the same DC, for a given amount of defense/DC. 
 
For a campaign-guideline attack, a DEF of 1/DC is very low, and only  
appropriate to Martial Artists.  A DEF of 2/DC is appropriate for high-CV  
projectors and composite characters.  A DEF of 3/DC is appropriate for  
front-line combatants, and a DEF of 4/DC is appropriate only for the  
brick-of-bricks.  Higher DEF than 4/DC is functional invulnerability. 
 
For attacks much smaller than campaign guidelines, DEF/DC could easily be  
5, 6 or even higher. 
 
			Damage Class 
DEF/DC	3          6          9         12         15 
1      -0.97222    -2.13889   -3.30093  -4.46759   -5.63604 
2      -0.06944    -0.41512   -0.76354  -1.1117    -1.4553 
3       1.055556    1.984568   2.967145  3.967754   4.98876 
4       1.5         2.771605   4.059738  5.344811   6.616203 
5       1.263889    1.844136   2.342939  2.799826   3.251064 
6       0.805556    0.925926   1.043981  1.125      1.190201 
 
For low-DEF characters, Normal attacks have a slight advantage.  For  
characters with brick-level defenses, the Killing Attack has a very  
slight advantage: around 1/3 of a point of STUN per damage class.  For  
characters with higher defenses (NPC hyper-bricks, or small attacks), the  
Killing Attack's advantage drops down to the truly trivial. 
 
While I agree that I would like the Killing Attack to do less STUN on  
expectation than a Normal attack, I find that the difference above fails  
to galvanize me.  The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant  
Defense to count double against the stun of a Killing Attack would more  
than solve the problem. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:55:43 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 26 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > ==================================================================== 
> > Case #5: 
> > 
> > The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash.  The 
> > PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the 
> > "Little misunderstanding in Langley," 
>  
> The DCI had authority here? Man, WotC really is buying out everybody!:) 
 
??? 
 
DCI = Director of Central Intelligence.  It is a common but ignorant  
error for reporters to refer to the office as "Director of the CIA".  The  
Director is responsible for coordinating the efforts of the various  
intelligence agencies: CIA, DIA, DEA Intelligence, FBI Counter-  
intelligence, etc. 
 
Obviously, I am missing something? 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: Pat10355@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo20.mx.aol.com from pat10355@aol.com server @imo20.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.42 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 02:45:29 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Hi, 
 
I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military 
weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other 
gear. 
 
I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams 
tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at 
all? 
 
If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information 
on this, I'd really appreciate it. 
 
Thanks, 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:26:28 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, 
dammit!) 
> Date: Monday, June 01, 1998 6:50 AM 
>  
> happyelf wrote: 
>  
> > > 
> > > Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense 
> > > color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue" 
> > > cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet. 
> > > 
> >  
> > like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*.  
>  
> Confusion reigns: this has nothing whatsoever to do with a dopplar  
> effect, so I am not sure what you are getting at. 
>  
 
I was half kidding. the other half involves my point about extrapolation.  
Certain visible spectrum phenomena can be used to deduce the position of 
ultraviolent light which rests near it. If someone is partly capable of 
detecting ultraviolent light, then they would clearly depend on this 
normally visible  
spectrum to determine greater information about the ultravilent spectrum  
they are less aquainted with.  
 
> The retina works by photoreactive pigments.  Pigments respond to light by 
 
> absorption.   The absorption cross-section always varies by frequency;    
> for wavelengths of interest, this will have the approximate form  
> exp[-(l-k)^2*s], where l is the wavelength being measured, k is the  
> wavelength of the absorption peak and s is a sensitivity factor.  I am  
> ignoring amplitude, which is certainly part of the equation, but not of  
> interest here, and leaving the result unnormalized. 
>  
> In a three color reception system, the pigments have absorption peaks of  
> i<j<k.  Assuming no attenuation from the optics and identical sensitivity 
 
> factors, a wavelength of L will result in an ordered triplet that  
> uniquely identifies the color: 
>  
> 	exp[-(L-i)^2*s]; exp[-(L-j)^2*s]; exp[-(L-k)^2*s] 
>  
> Successfully detecting colors with wavelengths < i is not only possible,  
> but unavoidable.  As we approach the upper limit of sensitivity, the  
> triplets will start to look like (X,0,0), with X decreasing with  
> increasing frequency.  There is nothing "backwards" about this, and it  
> certainly does not involve a Dopplar effect, which is the change in  
> apparent wavelength with the relative velocity of the source and  
> observer. 
>  
 
When used in terminology other that pure physics the doplar effect  
related to the progression from one wavelength to another, as is  
most easily displayed by the change seen over long distances.  
The 'backwards' comment arises from your own point: the actual  
dopler effect is caused externally, while the situation i suggest  
involves an internal shift of perception based on preconcious  
calculations inherent in sight and all sences. When the body  
recieves abnormal stimuli our perception attempts to make sence of it.  
 
> Note that a high sensitivity factor will allow fine color discrimination, 
 
> but will narrow the useful range of the pigment.  This is why a two-color 
 
> system is inferior to a three-color system: if pigments with a high color 
 
> sensitivity are used, the range of colors will be restricted; if pigments 
 
> with a wide color range are used, color discrimination will be low. 
>  
>  
> --  
> <-------------------------------------------------------> 
> Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>  
>  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:29:59 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>  
>    Maybe you could run an alternate campaign, where the PCs are high-tech 
> Federal agents who are assigned to deal with rogue supers....  ;-] 
 
Oh! I forgot to mention that Jade Cobra has been spotted attempting to  
break into a high-security defense installation before.  That  
installation was owned by a PC from my Philadelphia group of players.   
This PC was in jail at the time awaiting trial on a triple homicide,  
including counts of capital murder.  The group's resident alien warrior  
had blown up a police car with an autofire RPG during a high-speed chase.  
The warrior was hiding out in the plant, which was locked down under the  
auspices of the Office of Naval Intelligence.  (The rich PC ultimately  
burned over ten points in favors to get someone else framed for the  
crime.) 
 
Of course, Jade Cobra was in my Princeton group of players, which group  
wanted to investigate this situation, which they were unaware involved a  
PC.  They discovered the alien warrior, who almost killed their  
mentalist.  Jade Cobra was actually there to rescue the mentalist. 
 
I also neglected to mention another incident.  The PCs from the Princeton  
group were down in Arlington VA, investigating a physician on the staff  
of a Middle Eastern Embassy, and hence with diplomatic immunity.  While  
using Clairsentience to explore his house at night, they set off an alarm  
(the eye was visible to ultrasound).  The PCs were in various cars (some  
registered to their secret IDs): one across from the house, one watching  
the eastern approach on the street and one watching the western approach. 
 
When a 2-man B&W unit came to investigate the alarm, they almost  
automatically spotted the two nearer of the cars.  The slowed down to  
check out the first one with their spotlight, and found a man in an  
outlandish mask and costume trying to hide on the floor.  At almost the  
same moment, the car that was parked directly across the road from the  
house began to move toward the police car.  The police, in order,  
 
	1. Called for backup,  
	2. Moved their car so as to block both cars 
	3. Both officers got out of their car. 
	4. The one on the passenger side drew his service 9mm. 
	5. The driver pulled out the shotgun from between the seats. 
	6. The passenger-side officer ordered the PC out of the car. 
	7. The driver moved to place the cruiser between him and the  
		oncoming vehicle. 
 
At this point, two players complained that the cops were acting like  
geniuses; that there was no way that they would connect the two cars with  
one another, nor either with the alarm.  The PC in the parked car got out  
and started running, with the officer in pursuit.  At the same moment,  
the PCs in the moving car created the illusion of automatic weapons fire  
coming from the direction of the house. 
 
The policeman who was chasing the suspect was already moving away from  
the source of the fire, so continued the chase.  The driver popped the  
trunk, using the lid for cover, and got out the bullet-proof vests and  
M-16s.  (There was a story on 60 minutes a few weeks before, showing how  
the Arlington Police got enough M-16s to have two per patrol car.)  As he  
prepared to dive for cover (expecting the oncoming car either to ram or  
to drive by and shoot), the car pulled a bootleg turn and fled the other  
direction. 
 
The officer noted that the fire was coming from the near side of  
the house (where the PCs carefully put it).  Accordingly, the  
shortest path out of the line of fire was to give chase.  He hopped into  
his car and gave chase, while maintaining as much cover as possible.  He  
also called in "Officer needs help; shots fired; partner in foot pursuit;  
I am in vehicular pursuit."  The PCs now made their car invisible, and  
pulled off the road, which did confuse the officer.  The PC on foot  
eventually got room enough to spread his mechanical wings and take off. 
 
Meanwhile, the car on the other end of the road quietly drove off, just  
in time not to meet the backup that was coming in.  In a few minutes, the  
area was teaming with local police, SWAT, helicopters, embassy-hired  
private security, FBI and a couple of State Department officials.  A  
headquarters was established in the park across from the house and a  
cordon established around the area.  By sheerest luck (a roll of 5 on  
3D6) the location of the car was left as open ground. 
 
The PCs continued their illusions, including masked men firing from  
windows and the front door.  Since the weapons did not seem to be very  
well aimed (after all, they were just Images), the cops only returned  
fire when they had a clear target that was obviously dangerous.   
Unfortunately, the police line of fire included the space where the  
invisible car was: fortunately, there were enough points left in the VPP  
for an invisible force field around it. 
 
Eventually, the PCs created the illusion that the masked men were wounded  
and retreating into the house.  They also left a trail of blood leading  
to where they believed the doctor kept the secret stash of stolen weapons  
that the PCs were looking for, so the doctor was eventually exposed and  
declared persona non grata.  Meanwhile, the PCs were at great pains to  
extract themselves from the middle of things.  The most important factor  
in their success was that it was 4:00AM and I lacked the energy to  
properly run things. 
 
The two players continued to complain that the police had no reason to  
use the park across the street as a command post, that the use of  
helicopters was absurd, that the officer who chased them was acting in an  
unusally courageous and prescient manner, that there was no reason to  
chase the masked man in the car, and so on.  They were adamant that there  
was no way that the police would have noticed the license plate for  
either car, since neither was doing anything suspicious. 
 
Sigh! 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:34:16 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Double Points 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 07:19 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> >I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled. 
>  
>    Actually, I've tried something like this.  I've spent a period of time 
> in which I worked with half-points, and even went down to one or two 
> decimal places during character construction.  I've been known to give out 
> half experience points. 
 
I give out half experience points fairly routinely.  The only use of a  
half-point is to be combined with another half-point.  This gives me more  
granularity without really complicating anything.  Frankly, I see no  
reason this could not be mentioned as an option in the book.  
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:41:33 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Robert A West writes: 
>  
> > One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The 
> > amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the 
> > amount of the density decrease. 
>  
> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can 
> carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
 
That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature. 
 
 
> I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage. 
 
It depends.  I can see your point, though. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: sci-fi terminology was Military Weapon Designations 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:23:56 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Hi, 
>  
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military 
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and 
other 
> gear. 
>  
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 
Abrams 
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this 
at 
> all? 
>  
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some 
information 
> on this, I'd really appreciate it. 
>  
> Thanks, 
> Patrick Sweeney 
 
 
 
 
Well. . i have no millitary experiance at all, but my guild is highly 
involved with high-tech millitary psudojargon. I'll be putting up a wepons 
list (with popup hero stats) on my webpage before i launch it. . here's a 
few abreviations we use.  
Measurements: 
 
Round - just the normal .mm or .inch ammunition. Gauss weapons  
(if your talking about super-pepperbox gauss which strips ammo from a  
block and not railgun gauss) 
are done this way, or in .lb for weight of ammunition block. 
 
Charge - a measurement of the charge for energy weapons usually done in  
gigavolts,  
 
Volume-  in cubic centimetres, used to flamethrowers and plasma weapons.  
The idea is that the manufacturers put as much ammo in the gun as it can 
fire 
without melting.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
A few abreviations, which have worked their way into character's slang.  
 
HRMP- high recoil man portable: used to describe any gun which requires 
superhuman strength to use,  
but is difficult to use mounted on a vehicle. 
 
SCGP- smart-chipped gyrojet pistol: used to describe any guided small arms. 
 
 
VMDU - vehicle mounted demolition unit: anything like a subsonic cannon or  
an emp generator which used a sustained non-balistic blast to level or 
damage fortifications.  
 
TSA- Target-specific Amunition: Any ammo concept-designed to take out a 
particular foe.   
 
RB- room broom: gauss weapons, autoshotguns, ect.  
 
DDCA- Double Default Contigincy Amunition: Usually a large ceramic shell 
with a time-delay explosive,  
or a soft round laced with killer nanobots.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Some slang used by the PLAYERS: 
 
HSDD- hyperbole-soaked death-dealer 
 
BHPD- blatantly heinous plot device 
 
TIVA- totally impenetrable villain armour.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out4.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out4.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.239 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:53:19 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Reply-To: tbarrie@ibm.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: [Off-topic] Quick "Big Trouble in Little China" question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Is this film supposed to start with Wang's girlfriend being abducted 
from the airport? The copy I rented didn't have any opening credits 
or anything, leading me to suspect something may have been chopped off 
of the beginning. 
 
(Reply via private e-mail, please) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out5.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out5.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.245 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:54:55 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> >And you are supporting my argument indirectly.  Until you mentioned it, I 
> >wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've 
> >seen AoE used for similar things in the past.  Or maybe it would have 
> >eventually occurred to me.  Either way, you saved me some time and made my 
> >theoretical  "claw" write up more interesting and complete. 
>  
> That's why I said you would leave things out when I made the challenge. :-) 
>  But that is an example.  You would only include it in dinosaurs and 
> Godzilla.  Even dragons are too small for line attack claws. 
 
Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out1.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out1.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.252 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:02:07 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 30 May 1998, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> I guess you don't use Free Agent to read your messages, then. 
 
Is that a joke? Your earlier comments based on the assumption that 
people are going to be using one specific mail client? 
 
> >If you were talking about Third Edition rules, you should have said so 
> >up front. 
>  
> No one else has, yet they've been using 3rd Edition examples and rules 
> descriptions. 
 
I haven't seen any. Care to cite an example? 
 
> >If you're willing to allow for the existence of exotic defenses to thwart 
> >binocular-based attacks, why are you not willing to allow such defenses 
> >for TV-based attacks? 
>  
> Someone in a crowd becomes visible when he makes an attack. Someone in 
> their living room is not. 
 
And what has being in a crowd to do with a mental sniper several blocks 
away with a pair of binoculars? 
 
> >Read the description of Mental Awareness. If the target of the attack 
> >has mentalists watching for an attack, they'll be able to detect the 
> >source of the attack, period. 
>  
> Can't do much about it, though. MA only lets someone become aware in a 
> general sense of the use of a mental power. Only the one being 
> attacked knows where it's coming from. 
 
When I wrote "Read the description of Mental Awareness", I wasn't just 
stringing random words together; it was an actual suggestion that you 
read the thing. It explicitly states that the character with MA can 
"see" the source of the mental power. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out1.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out1.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.252 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:08:34 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 29 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> DC	Killing   Killing 
> 	Range     Avg 
> ----  --------- --------- 
> 4	2 - 35    11.25 
> 8	3 - 75    22.50 
 
These should be 12 and 24, respectively. The average STUN Multiple 
is 2.666666..., not 2.5. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel7.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel7.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.57 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:47:23 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:24 AM 6/1/98 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
>I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up 
>on the ground.  If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make 
>sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright.  But 
>beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some 
>blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander. 
>Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet. 
> 
 
 
We use a Breakfall roll -- or if circumstances make it a difficult 
task, then Acrobatics -- in addition to the DEX (Dive) roll. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:38:13 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:03 PM 5/31/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect  
>of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports.  He takes a full  
>action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase  
>2, having used a full action.  Once started, the character has no way to  
>stop the long-range teleport.  This can be very convenient (he isn't  
>there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower  
>just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed  
>elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital  
>because he wasn't anywhere).  IMO, the advantages and disadvantages  
>cancel out. 
 
   I've had a couple of teleporting characters with a similar effect, and I 
agree with that last statement completely. 
 
>If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time  
>limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes  
>back, and cannot affect the physical world.  It would probably be abusive  
>to take recoveries in transit. 
 
   I think I'd allow Post-12, but not regular Recoveries since he's 
exerting effort to move (which, I think, is your intent in the above 
paragraph). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:39:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:24 AM 6/1/1998 EDT, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
>I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up 
>on the ground.  If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make 
>sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright.  But 
>beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some 
>blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander. 
>Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet. 
> 
>This came up in the game tonight, and it made me wonder.  I couldn't find 
>anything one way or the other in the book.   
> 
>How do y'all handle this? 
 
   Generally, if the character can make an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll at 
-1 per inch moved, then he may land on his feet.  Otherwise he's prone. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:49:27 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:34 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 07:26 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very 
>>>long on examples of complete creatures.  Of course, that would be a more 
>>>late-90s name for the Beastiary. 
>> 
>>   Don't be so sure.  When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his 
>>reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book.  Of course, 
>>this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM 
>>for sheer size. 
> 
>I said "short on how" not "short in length".  It will be a big book.  (And 
>TUSV sounds like a large book to me.  Steve must not have really thought 
>about it.) 
 
   What I was getting at, was that you may be thinking that one couldn't do 
much on explaining the hows and whys of creature creation.  Certainly the 
authors of the first two editions of the Hero Bestiary didn't spend a lot 
of space on it (Michael J. Susko Jr. gave it 9 pages in the first edition, 
and Doug Tabb gave it 14 pages in the second), but another author could 
probably come up with greater detail for a third edition, or an Ultimate 
Beast tome. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:55:39 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Pat10355@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Pat10355@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Hi, 
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military 
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other 
> gear. 
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams 
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at 
> all? 
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information 
> on this, I'd really appreciate it. 
 
    I was in the U.S. Military for 5 1/2 years and how things become designated 
such and such is dependendent on the item. Usually there are two factors that 
decide how an item is designated. The purpose of the item and what company made 
it. 
 
    For instance. In WWII troops where issued the M-1, starting in Vietnam they 
were issued the M-16, and in between on a VERY LIMITED basis the M-14 was used. 
A simple progression using the M-? as the designator for the main infantry troop 
weapon. 
    The main sidearm up and untill a couple years ago was the .45 automatic 
M1911. The 1911 stood for the year the Military first adopted the weapon. 
 
    Note that Prototypes, and sketeches are counted. The M1A1 Abrams battle tank 
has been our main battle tank for a while know. I don't think the M1 was ever in 
service that long, untill they upgraded it thus the M1A1 designation. 
 
    Aircraft designation is much easier. F-15, F-16, F-14. A simple progression 
of numbers. The F stands for Fighter, A for Attack, E for Electronic Warfare, K 
for Refueling, B for Bomber. This is why our next fighter is going to be the 
F-22. Once again note the Prototypes ARE counted. 
 
    Note that how things are designated change and when they change everything 
is given the new designation. For example up untill the 1960 era aircraft were 
designated such as F4U. This was the 4th fighter design from the U company. Each 
company was given a letter designator. I think U was for Grumman, but am not 
sure. 
 
    How do they come up with Cosair, Falcon, Intruder and other names....A lot 
of different ways. Sometimes it has stuff to do with History, I know the F-14 
Tomcat was named because the Admiral who pushed for it so hard. The plane became 
known as " Tom's cat" and it went from their. Ships have a long history of how 
they are named. CV's (aircraft carries) are named after famous ships of the past 
or Important people. Guided Missle Nuclear Cruisers(CGN) are named after States, 
Regular Guided Missle cruisers(CG) after cities or famous ships. 
 
    Enemy weapons and equipment are given designators along the same lines as 
this, usually with a nickname as well. The T-72 is a main battle tank of the old 
Soviet Army. I don't know it's nickname, but I am sure it had one. 
 
                                                                        Hope 
this helps. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:12:42 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:01 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   That table would be a good start.  Some of these will be 1/2 END (the 
>>feline ones) while other will be 0 END.  The Dragon's claws might have 
>>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be 
>>Penetrating. 
> 
>Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws?  That would make the strength 
>addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END. 
>Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END. 
 
   The 1/2 END is to represent the fact that the cat has to put some effort 
into extending the claws, as opposed to most other animals (like dogs and 
bears) whose claws are out all the time. 
   I frankly don't see what would be annoying about attaching STR -- and 
certainly nothing that buying STR at 1/2 END would solve. 
   As for the felines in FH, the author was just not thinking along these 
lines.  In fact, I suspect that they were taken directly from the Hero 
Bestiary. 
 
>Bearcat: never heard of it. 
 
   I tried looking it up and couldn't find it.  Once I can I'll post a 
synopsis of what I know about this creature (including the correct name) to 
the list, since I think it'd make a really cool character concept. 
 
>>   Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard. 
>>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
>>Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster and 
>>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons 
>charts. 
> 
>But you still have to write 1D6 HKA on the character sheet or else you'll 
>have to refer to the chart while playing. 
 
   Yes, you'll still have to write it down.  But at least the player and GM 
didn't have to sit down and figure out for themselves the Reduced 
Penetration, or the 1/2 END I'm recommending, or whether or not certain 
other characteristics should be included (like AP) other than what might 
have been added after the fact. 
 
>>   Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard. 
>>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger."  "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced 
>>Penetration.  12 points."  It makes character construction much faster and 
>>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons 
>charts. 
>>[...] 
>>   You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced 
>>Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla).  As I 
>>pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's 
>>even more variation that can be had. 
> 
>But, it is not realistic.  Why felines?  Why not just call them Claws I and 
>Claws II at that point?  It's just as much a part of normal life as 
>Shoulder Cannon II. 
 
   On the final table, they would probably be listed as different sizes of 
"Retractable Claws" with maybe a couple of other specifics.  The reason I 
said feline in the above quote is because your table gave them as 
"housecat" and "tiger," both of which are felines.  (In point of fact, I 
believe that there are a couple of non-feline creatures with retractable 
claws, though I can't remember what they are offhand.) 
   As for this not being realistic, I sure don't see what's unrealistic 
about it.  A table of benchmarks for natural weapons is no less realistic 
than one for artificial weapons, whether real (as in TUMA) or fictional (as 
in TUSV). 
 
>I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it. 
>Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate.  Godzilla is huge 
>and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA.  (I think I stole that from 
>a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.) 
 
   And that's the way to do it.  With the examples being asked for, though, 
you wouldn't have to explain this every time it came up; it would already 
be down in black and white for all to see. 
 
>>[...]  And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of 
>>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty 
>>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature, 
>>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation, 
>>and *then* getting it down. 
> 
>I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the 
>minority there. 
 
   I'm not sure what you're saying here. 
 
>Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the 
>Red.Pen. limitation.  The claws would have to be spiked or something to 
>include AP. 
 
   And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified 
with such a book.  To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only 
happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one.  This leaves 
AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws. 
 
>>and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X 
>>back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks 
>>to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly.  Secondarily, should the 
>>player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the 
>>GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than 
>>having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his 
>>math. 
> 
>So this theoretical GM knows Construct X from TUW and doesn't need the 
>Power with Advantages and Limitations explained?  (Not that TUW means 
>anything to me.)  He still needs the power, the character's STR to compare 
>against his DC limit for his game. 
 
   The Ultimate Whatever (TUW) is what gives the Power, Advantages, 
Limitations, and other information.  The written examples serve to 
standardize the methods. 
   To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm 
playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM.  I tell the GM that I want 
kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96.  The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA, 
runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects 
it, or tells me how to modify it.  In any event, I didn't have to develop 
it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published, 
all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind 
turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in 
"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by 
hand, which I soon won't be doing). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4 
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 09:14:27 -0500 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:36 PM 6/1/98 -0700, Kim Foster wrote: 
>Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put 
>it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists 
>in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but 
>are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic 
>fantasy world.  
 
That's not entirely true. "Normals" doen't actually exist in any genre, as 
the term is derived from what is normal in OUR world. Aliens and mages might 
be considered 'normal' in their worlds -- but unless HERO is getting 
significantly more widespread sales than previously supposed, no aliens are 
going to be playing this game. "Normal" is relative to the 'genre' *outside* 
the game. 
 
== 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:23:39 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Claws (was How Complicated is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:39 AM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>>For example: 
>>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal 
>>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters 
>like 
>>dragons or something.  You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as 
>many 
>>DCs as you wish. 
> 
>This is actually how most of my own components currently look.  I've been 
>assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented.  I suppose it is 
>really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how 
>complicated the table is.  The one thing you do lose with a table is the 
>host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may 
>or may not be a problem. 
 
   Basically, a reasonable range of DCs should be included. 
   Take the aforementioned Shoulder Cannon II example from TUSV.  There are 
actually four classes of Shoulder Cannon.  SC-I does 3d6, SC-II does 4d6, 
SC-III does 5d6, and SC-IV does 6d6.  All of them are otherwise built 
identically. 
   So where are the d6+1 and 1/2d6 steps?  I didn't figure they'd be 
needed.  In dealing with military-level weapons -- especially fictional 
ones -- it's more important to have a wide range than fine granularity, at 
least IMO.  So nearly all equipment is created with steps of 2-4 base DCs 
(the only significant exception being arms for giant robots, as built using 
TK). 
   For animal claws, there's a bit more granularity called for, since they 
are somewhat more common (especially among animals) and are mostly at a 
lower range, where a smaller amount of change can make a bigger difference. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:25:57 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:45 AM 6/1/1998 EDT, Pat10355@aol.com wrote: 
>I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams 
>tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at 
>all? 
 
   This is something that, arguably, should go in TUSV as well (at least, 
the part regarding vehicles). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:38:11 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:49 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength 
>>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
>>    I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post. 
> 
>Just that inches of Flight and mass of the flyer and what he is carrying 
>have no relevance to each other.  A 60 Strength character with 10" of 
>flight can fly 10" per action whether he carries nothing or a 100 ton 
>object, even if that character himself has a mass of 100 tons. 
 
   Robert wasn't directly tying together STR (either the character's own 
STR, or STR in general) and Flying; he was using the STR required for a 
certain task as a guideline for how much Flight should be used for 
something similar. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:03:57 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA07948 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm 
playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM.  I tell the GM that I want 
kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96.  The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA, 
runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects 
it, or tells me how to modify it.  In any event, I didn't have to develop 
it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published, 
all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind 
turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in 
"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by 
hand, which I soon won't be doing).< 
 
I'm with you on how having power lists can simplify things, make creation 
faster, and provide a standard that all campaigns work from, but it seems 
like this would be tough to sell to Hero players because one of their big 
reasons for why Hero is better than the other games is because it doesn't 
have just a list of powers.  On the other hand, H4 already has lists for 
guns, so another list for claws (or blades, or whatever) would be 
essentially the same thing.  I'm starting to get the mindset that the 
flexibility of H4 is largely an academic concern...it seems great, but it 
sounds so nice to be able to just pick stuff off a list and move on. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:04:59 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Bob Greenwade 
> 
> 
<snip> 
> 
>    That table would be a good start.  Some of these will be 1/2 END (the 
> feline ones) while other will be 0 END.  The Dragon's claws might have 
> Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be 
> Penetrating. 
>    (I may be confusing the bearcat for a different creature -- one whose 
> claws are tough enough to rip through just about anything.  I've seen one 
> of these close up, at the West Coast Game Park Safari just outside Bandon, 
> Oregon, and I seem to remember it being the bearcat, so that's what I'm 
> going to call it for the rest of this post, and the rest of this discussion 
> until someone corrects me.) 
 
I wouldn't make the 'bearcat' with Penetrating claws, unless you want to claim they can 
shred a bank vault door. Remember that Penetrating penetrates _anything_ that isn't 
hardened, no matter what the DEF. 
 
Additionally, you might want to remember what a 1d6 HKA w/o Reduced Penetration can do. 
Given time, it will shred anything with an 11 DEF or lower, such as brick walls, 
reenforced concrete, and safe doors. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:05:02 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Bob Greenwade 
> 
> 
<snip> 
> 
> >Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the 
> >Red.Pen. limitation.  The claws would have to be spiked or something to 
> >include AP. 
> 
>    And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified 
> with such a book.  To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only 
> happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one.  This leaves 
> AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws. 
 
I am afraid I don't understand. What do you see happening if you buy 1d6 HKA, AP, Reduced 
Penetration? That's what it sounds like you are suggesting. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:47:13 -0700 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Claws (was How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:05 AM 6/1/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>> From: Bob Greenwade 
>> >Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the 
>> >Red.Pen. limitation.  The claws would have to be spiked or something to 
>> >include AP. 
>> 
>>    And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified 
>> with such a book.  To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only 
>> happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one.  This leaves 
>> AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws. 
> 
>I am afraid I don't understand. What do you see happening if you buy 1d6 
HKA, AP, Reduced 
>Penetration? That's what it sounds like you are suggesting. 
 
   The difference between 1d6 HKA, AP, RedPen and just straight 1d6 HKA are 
subtle, but significant enough to make into a separate construct. 
   Used with STR, 1d6 HKA becomes 2d6 HKA.  The average roll on 2d6 is 7; 
with the average STUN Multiple of 2.667, average STUN for this attack is 
about 19. 
   Now take that against someone with 5 DEF Armor.  The straight HKA does 5 
BODY and 14 STUN.  The AP/RedPen version is split in two for purposes of 
BODY, but the Armor is halved, so it becomes a 4 BODY attack and a 3 BODY 
attack against 3 DEF, which does 1 BODY.  The STUN just goes against half 
the DEF, so it's 16 STUN in that case. 
   The attack, in a way, does have "less ability to penetrate defenses" 
(the book's description of Reduced Penetration) because there are multiple 
claws being used in the single attack.  On the other hand, each individual 
claw is especially tough and sharp, accounting for the AP. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:38:07 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:20 PM 6/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm 
>playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM.  I tell the GM that I want 
>kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96.  The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA, 
>runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects 
>it, or tells me how to modify it.  In any event, I didn't have to develop 
>it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published, 
>all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind 
>turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in 
>"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by 
>hand, which I soon won't be doing).< 
> 
>I'm with you on how having power lists can simplify things, make creation 
>faster, and provide a standard that all campaigns work from, but it seems 
>like this would be tough to sell to Hero players because one of their big 
>reasons for why Hero is better than the other games is because it doesn't 
>have just a list of powers.  On the other hand, H4 already has lists for 
>guns, so another list for claws (or blades, or whatever) would be 
>essentially the same thing.  I'm starting to get the mindset that the 
>flexibility of H4 is largely an academic concern...it seems great, but it 
>sounds so nice to be able to just pick stuff off a list and move on. 
 
   That last part is the crux of the thing, though -- Hero doesn't have 
*just* a list of powers (by which, I take it, you mean SFX-based powers as 
opposed to the game-effect-based Powers it does have a list of).  A list of 
SFX-based powers is a good thing, of course; that's the centerpiece of this 
argument.  In hero, though, there should and will always be ways of 
modifying these powers so characters and their abilities can be customized. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,    dammit!) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:14:16 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
>> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal. 
 
> Unusual?  I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a  
> TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp.  Even I can still hear those! 
 
30-60Hz is still above the low end of average, which is ~20Hz.  Whether or 
not you can hear it is more a matter of amplitude (volume) than frequency. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXMLl56VRH7BJMxHAQGMJwP9GuoUo0LX89MMDM9re6uXTrSkeKMYmrBn 
feBGsI0MHVFRAhEQw1ylQDMNA7tGnEn9AAuOXEpwQgnWke42fAWoNNXbpp6pJrSF 
P/FeR9SEq9FcSyOltk4lSzyA30j4uR95up28JVZaaZouSksLw4HHhp+2aMLeO8hd 
67YOLoaaYfg= 
=U9ir 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:20:21 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength 
>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
> That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature. 
 
Well, a limitation cannot (or at least should not) add mechanics to a 
power, only take them away. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXMNAp6VRH7BJMxHAQEf6AP+O5xOD98Ul1yK0WbxuQMsV3lTkd9WYd// 
qgVVDg/2q7ECnhFa9NHpxXATN6SDqXEU+EQr3VOWXmGUUSG2iOdLr+AaJXF0Fo7Z 
driF/vE4sO+7bK1Iq4qpRTx9T961XmPF4R4vHR7+9vRJxCJHczh4k8td05uZUDAK 
EhY7RiRKGNg= 
=pQqw 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:22:52 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Firelynx16  writes: 
 
> I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they 
> ended up on the ground. 
 
[etc-etc-etc] 
 
So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXMNmp6VRH7BJMxHAQHATQP8DTcLaKm1UpWy40bCQ33gkz+bI25G7oBH 
+fteZZ8O6akl3RCCxdffz+9FIlPPBNCjlL1qQMYilCMM0rPdrK6jlhqjkuaUowlb 
+8NPO6amAunwVZFvN6dAQu61E6ccKpphYBnNVcYgOjdz/CnShtqtfJrvr9RpPKMx 
QAcC0SM/S1w= 
=3Yd2 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:26:51 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Jeff M Reid writes: 
 
> But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using 
> a weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it 
> either one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR 
> min). 
 
Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about. 
The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be 
able to use their off-hands for things like shields. 
 
Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength.  Swinging it 
with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield.  Swinging it 
with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra points 
of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need 
against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers 
your effective DCV.  *THAT* is why the limitation. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXMOi56VRH7BJMxHAQHfPwP/dKT0p3/NBg3EWi9QhsCC0vbm15zWZWyP 
TMYqjmHEuUmmiSzHlIxmuyjwOpl+pXn/unZsj3nnY1fpUd0KoeFOPExMWSR+QI+c 
ws+OsbXTHAx5r1PiUNDZ1HX63she4mvuSQEOWJYpSWFbLNmUVzKF3bfRhsvuPutN 
X2ahj+Nm6xM= 
=CRWg 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:31:51 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:14 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Robert A West writes: 
> 
>>> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal. 
> 
>> Unusual?  I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a  
>> TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp.  Even I can still hear those! 
> 
>30-60Hz is still above the low end of average, which is ~20Hz.  Whether or 
>not you can hear it is more a matter of amplitude (volume) than frequency. 
 
   The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz.  More like 25-30 
MHz. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net from nexus@uky.campus.mci.net server @sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net ip 204.71.76.240 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put 
it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists 
in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but 
are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic 
fantasy world.  
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.igateway.net from tstatler@igateway.net server @mail.igateway.net ip 206.142.60.2 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:08:04 -0500 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org, John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John P Weatherman wrote: 
>  
> Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/31/98 11:03 AM 
>  
> >John P Weatherman wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/28/98 10:09 PM 
> >> 
> >> >PAK'MA'RA 
> >> >  Pow Def  5pts                         5 
> >> 
> >> Huh?  Seriously, what was this based on? 
> > 
> >The Pak'Ma'Ra are extremely resistant (or immune) to almost all poisons, 
> >toxins, and diseases. (You try eating 3 day old carrion and see what 
> >happens to you.) Hence the Power Def since most posions and diseases are 
> >modeled by drains, etal. 
>  
> I can definantly see this.  However the defence should be limited to 
> natural diseases and poisons (YMMV, I'd try about a -1/4 in the B5 
> universe, 
> maybe even -0, but the limit does belong there). 
 
I'm not sure if it should be there yet. But I'd call it a -0 and GM 
judgement call. 
>  
> >> >  Discriminatory Smell                  5 
> >> >  +2 to smell perception rolls          4 
> >> 
> >> Given the very strong oder Pak'ma'ra extrude, this 
> >> seems rather unlikely.  As for the three das dead 
> >> thing, more likely a special detect - food 3 days 
> >> dead. 
> > 
> >I modeled their smell on that of a vulture. I Vulture can pick up the 
> >odor of decay from over 5 miles away. The discriminatory is iffy but the 
> >enhancment should stay. 
>  
> I can buy the +2 then, but I still think the desciminatory thing is a 
> little odd.  Of course, I've never head that vultures themselves smell 
> any worse than any other bird, and we have heard the Pak'Ma'Ra stink 
> to high heaven, which would under normal circumstances tend to interfear 
> with smelling anything else.  Course that +2 may well be to offset the 
> penalties for very strong masking smells (themselves) in the area. :) 
>  
The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit 
in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading 
this I could use another opinion.) 
 
> >> >DRAZI 
> >> >increased chr max: STR 13/23                 6 
> >> >                   BDY 12/22                 8 
> >> >                   PD  -/10                  2 
> >> >SUBTOTAL                                         16 
 
> >> The drazi hurt the most to hit, so I'd make that leathery hide of theirs 
> >> into very low grade PD armor, maybe even 4 points.  Also, I'd give a 
> >> Phych Lim for Drazi Social System (the whole green/purple thing) and maybe 
> >> for their near constant enraged state, their worst than narn by a long 
> >> shot. 
> > 
> >Garabaldi just said that Drazi hurt worse to hit than who ever attacked 
> >him. From what I've seen I don't beleive rpd is inorder just a greater 
> >overall def. The Green/purple thing is over for quite a few years now, 
> >so no need. Their temper, hmmmmm (thinking mode.) 
>  
> I thought the green/purple thing was for 24 years (Ivonova thought hours 
> but 
> was orders of magnitude off).  That would definantly make it an ongoing 
> issue. 
> As for the armor thing, I could see doing it either way.  Still, almost 
> all 
> races use normal, cutting, bladed weapons, Drazi use punch daggers.  This 
> could be seen to indicate they needed something effectively armor peircing 
> for good effect which would lead to the resistant conclusion.  Just a 
> though. 
>  
The same style Punch Dagger was used during human history. I think it 
was a racial preference, because they did slash sideways with them. 
 
I have to look up the Green/Purple. Ivanova solved the B5 problem by 
marching the greens to be dyed purple. By the 5th season, it seemed to 
be over. I don't remember when it starts up again. 
 
Tim Statler 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:08:31 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:39 AM 6/1/98 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote: 
>I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting. 
> 
>I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few 
>sends.  The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry 
>tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be of 
>much use to me. 
 
Someone agrees with me!!!  Thank you, Grant. 
 
>A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws 
>with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me. 
>You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor 
>Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may 
>be useful with. 
 
This almost has merit.  I don't understand the need for it.  But it doesn't 
offend me as much as Tiger Claws. 
 
>For example: 
>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal 
>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters like 
>dragons or something.  You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as many 
>DCs as you wish. 
 
Where was I when animals with 0 END claws became popular?  But anyway, the 
above is half of the two paragraphs which I claimed are all that is 
necessary for "Claws" in such a book. 
 
>Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the 
>"reasonably common" defenses for them.  Standardizing some of these powers 
>and defenses would be very helpful. 
> 
>This brings up another issue: 
>The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific.  An 
>NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be 
>allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe other 
>defenses. 
 
I was about to pounce on the first part when you disclaimed it in the 
second part.  You cannot create a list of special effects without being 
campaign specific.  I would hate to even see this as an example in anything 
resembling an official set of special effects.  Someone at a con would 
claim that it's the ONLY way to do things. 
 
>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as 
>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific 
>campaigns.  I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books. 
>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?  
 
Nah, only hundreds.  :-)  While this would be nice, someone still has to do 
the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy 
them.  Post your campaign to a web site.  It would be more effective.  And 
it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to. 
("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:23:32 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>Firelynx16  writes: 
 
>> I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they 
>> ended up on the ground. 
 
>[etc-etc-etc] 
 
>So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up? 
 
What goes up, must come down.  Then the character needs a breakfall or 
acrobatics roll to land on his feet.  Whoops--forget there are probably a 
bunch of flying and gliding characters out there. :-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:28:03 -0400 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:54 AM 6/1/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>  But that is an example.  You would only include it in dinosaurs and 
>> Godzilla.  Even dragons are too small for line attack claws. 
> 
>Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs? 
 
Godzilla is not a dinosaur.  He is usually called hundreds of feet tall. 
Dragons are usually tens of feet long.  (Based on my extensive AD&D 
background. :-)  Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't 
think there were any long armed dinosaurs.  (This is opinion.  It has no 
basis in reality.  Afterall, I'm comparing Dragons and Atomic Monsters. :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:40:29 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about. 
>The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be 
>able to use their off-hands for things like shields. 
 
But the STR min is critical for final damage, as you show below. 
 
>Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength.  Swinging it 
>with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield.  Swinging it 
>with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra 
points 
>of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need 
>against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers 
>your effective DCV.  *THAT* is why the limitation. 
 
So for a -1/4, the character gets the OPTION to do +1 DC for only 3 STR 
over the normal STR required--albeit with some limits attached.  Sounds 
like a benefit to me.  It certainly isn't a limitation. 
 
Gee, I thought you would be on the other side of this issue, of all people. 
 I was expecting a reference to the big, bold type in HSR, p. 100:  "A 
limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus!" :-) 
 
I suspect your earlier response was probably (historically) more correct.  
Whoever came up with this decided 2 handed was a -1/2 limitation.  When 
someone suggested 1.5 handed weapons, that naturally sounded like it 
belonged in the middle. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo web1.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @web1.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.67 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:15:41 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Greetings, 
 
---Kim Foster  wrote: 
> 
> Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put 
> it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists 
> in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but 
> are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic 
> fantasy world.  
>  
        Here's a nifty notion.  Rather than calling them "supers", let's go 
the politically-correct route. 
 
        We'll call them "physical and/or mental overachievers". 
 
Dale A. Ward 
[Did Somebody Say BLOW UP McDonald's?] 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo web2.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @web2.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.68 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:18:45 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
Greetings, 
 
---bobby farris  wrote: 
> 
>     How do they come up with Cosair, Falcon, Intruder and other names....A lot 
> of different ways. Sometimes it has stuff to do with History, I know the F-14 
> Tomcat was named because the Admiral who pushed for it so hard. The plane 
became 
> known as " Tom's cat" and it went from their. Ships have a long history of how 
> they are named. CV's (aircraft carries) are named after famous ships of the 
past 
> or Important people. Guided Missle Nuclear Cruisers(CGN) are named after 
States, 
> Regular Guided Missle cruisers(CG) after cities or famous ships. 
>  
        I thought they had a Madison Ave. PR corp. on retainer to come up with 
all the neato-keen nicknames. 
        For instance, SCUD and Patriot missiles... basically, the same thing.  
BUT, the Patriot is OURS (Yay!!) while the SCUD is THEIRS (Boo!!) 
 
        It's all just PR. 
 
Dale A. Ward 
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?] 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:47:55 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
At 07:12 AM 6/1/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 11:01 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>   That table would be a good start.  Some of these will be 1/2 END (the 
>>>feline ones) while other will be 0 END.  The Dragon's claws might have 
>>>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be 
>>>Penetrating. 
>> 
>>Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws?  That would make the strength 
>>addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END. 
>>Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END. 
> 
>   The 1/2 END is to represent the fact that the cat has to put some effort 
>into extending the claws, as opposed to most other animals (like dogs and 
>bears) whose claws are out all the time. 
 
WHAT?!?  What does extended/retracted claws have to do with END usage on a 
Killing Attack?  The cat still rears back and attacks.  The claws move 
through the air and cause damage.  How is this different than a bite or a 
punch?  None of the natural creatures in the FH list have 1/2 or 0 END on 
their attacks. 
 
>   I frankly don't see what would be annoying about attaching STR -- and 
>certainly nothing that buying STR at 1/2 END would solve. 
 
15 STR cat, with 1D6 HKA 1/2 END claws.  How much damage does it do?  Let's 
see the base power is 19 Active with 3 DCs so that's 6.3pts/DC so 15 STR 
can only add 2 DCs or a 1.5D6 attack.  (p.158 Determing Damage)  That's why 
it would be annoying. 
 
>   Yes, you'll still have to write it down.  But at least the player and GM 
>didn't have to sit down and figure out for themselves the Reduced 
>Penetration, or the 1/2 END I'm recommending, or whether or not certain 
>other characteristics should be included (like AP) other than what might 
>have been added after the fact. 
 
I still don't see how this is faster.  Most players are going to say, "I 
want claws, what's the campaign max DCs?  12?  Okay, then 4D6 HKA.  I'll 
call them supertiger claws."  Maybe my players are too vicious. 
 
>>I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it. 
>>Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate.  Godzilla is huge 
>>and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA.  (I think I stole that from 
>>a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.) 
> 
>   And that's the way to do it.  With the examples being asked for, though, 
>you wouldn't have to explain this every time it came up; it would already 
>be down in black and white for all to see. 
 
Yes, you would have to explain it.  You would still need the paragraph 
which explains why.  How is so meaningless compared to why.  A list with 
"Bear claws" in it is meaningless.  Players will, on the mean, wish to be 
stronger than the average bear.  (Hey, Booboo. :-) 
 
>>>[...]  And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of 
>>>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty 
>>>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature, 
>>>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation, 
>>>and *then* getting it down. 
>> 
>>I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the 
>>minority there. 
> 
>   I'm not sure what you're saying here. 
 
I'm saying anyone who can read the rules will figure out that Claws are 
made with HKA.  And when they glance at the lion and tiger and bear and 
horse etc in the creature list with Reduced Penetration, they'll look at 
that entry in the rulebook and it will suggest it for natural attacks.  I 
assume that people have brains and read the rules.  If that assumption is 
false, then your lists are not useful either. 
 
I know. I know. I'm focusing on claws too much.  But the same could be said 
for bites (HKAs), tail sweeps (HAs), rear kicks (HAs), wings (Flight, can 
be fowled, or Gliding).  About the only section that I would say should be 
well explained and expanded on would be poisons. 
 
>>Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the 
>>Red.Pen. limitation.  The claws would have to be spiked or something to 
>>include AP. 
> 
>   And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified 
>with such a book.  To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only 
>happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one.  This leaves 
>AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws. 
 
I would reserve them for claws with sharp studs or spines.  Cats and bears 
and other normal creatures are not going to have AP or Penetrating.  I 
removed Red.Pen. from Gargoyle because they are made of stone.   
 
>The written examples serve to 
>standardize the methods. 
>   To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm 
>playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM.  I tell the GM that I want 
>kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96.  The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA, 
>runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects 
>it, or tells me how to modify it.  In any event, I didn't have to develop 
>it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published, 
>all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind 
>turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in 
>"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by 
>hand, which I soon won't be doing). 
 
There is a big difference between kuji-kiri and claws.  Claws have a base 
power and a limitation and maybe an advantage.  There's nothing else to it. 
 I think my problem with this is the lack of creativity in just looking at 
some lists.  You may have noticed I like to join the rule discussions on 
the list.  They are part of the reason I use the game.  :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:48:15 -0400 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
At 06:49 AM 6/1/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>At 10:34 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very 
>>>>long on examples of complete creatures.  Of course, that would be a more 
>>>>late-90s name for the Beastiary. 
>   What I was getting at, was that you may be thinking that one couldn't do 
>much on explaining the hows and whys of creature creation.  Certainly the 
>authors of the first two editions of the Hero Bestiary didn't spend a lot 
>of space on it (Michael J. Susko Jr. gave it 9 pages in the first edition, 
>and Doug Tabb gave it 14 pages in the second), but another author could 
>probably come up with greater detail for a third edition, or an Ultimate 
>Beast tome. 
 
You are right.  I am thinking that you couldn't do much explaining the hows 
and why of creature creation and not write dreck.  I've never looked at the 
beastiaries so I don't know what Susko and Tabb wrote but I cannot imagine 
a lot more text 14-16 pages.  32 pages would be far too much.  How much can 
you say about claws without padding it unnecessarily?  I prefer terse writing. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG) 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:15:34 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>snip< >You cannot create a list of special effects without being 
>campaign specific.  I would hate to even see this as an example in 
anything 
>resembling an official set of special effects.  Someone at a con would 
>claim that it's the ONLY way to do things. 
 
And I would tell them to get a life.  We're playing Hero, not chess.  (What 
is this phobia about pushy people at Cons?  :-) I've always advertised that 
my 
game was non-standard and never had any trouble--albeit with limited Con 
experience.) 
 
>>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as 
>>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for 
specific 
>>campaigns.  I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books. 
>>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?  
 
>Nah, only hundreds.  :-)  While this would be nice, someone still has to 
do 
>the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy 
>them.  Post your campaign to a web site.  It would be more effective.  And 
>it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to. 
>("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.) 
 
Last I heard, GURPs books where selling fairly well--maybe not every one of 
them, but as a collection. 
 
Joe, It seems to me that all of your objections are basically editorial 
ones.  How useful it is COMPARED to how much space it takes?  What media is 
best?  What else could Hero do, instead?  Hero is going to publish 
something. 
 
Your other objection seems to be a fixation on size.  I'll say it again.  
All size quotes are just for purpose of visualization.  A component might 
be 2 paragraphs or 2 pages--depending on a ton of factors.  Key point:  But 
if it is a valid component--it will ultimately take less space than 
constantly repeating it.  See below for why.   
 
Also, If you will recall, I said from the start that components mostly 
belonged in smaller "books" or even "modules."  That is precisely because 
EVERY componenent will be completely useless to SOME people.  You obviously 
don't need claws.  I don't need vehicle parts.  It's only after something 
becomes extremely popular or useful that it deserves promotion to a "core" 
rules book. 
 
Web site, disk, database, book, scratched on a stone with flint rock--I 
don't really care--it's an editorial decision.  (By "editorial", I mean the 
role of editor, whether performed by an actual editor, an author policing 
himself, or whomever.) 
 
You also seem to think that the fact that one needs to list HKA, AP, and so 
one on the actual character sheet somehow invalidates the component idea.  
I think there is some confusion about the role and content of a component.  
Another way of looking at a compoent is as a communication bridge between 
design and play (i.e. "use").  By the very nature of separation of duties, 
there is some repetition, because a component implies 3 distinct 
activities:  Designing it, making it available, and using it. 
 
Component design:  Typical claws.  Built on HKA, often with reduced 
penetration -1/4.  Some use AP.  Explanation of why some GM's will use AP 
to simulate claws.  Explanation of why some will not.  Using Red pen and AP 
together.   Why or why not you might want to do this.   When to use AoE and 
what is simulates for a claw.  Reference to poisons, and how claws might 
interact with them.  (Note that the whole discussion provides actual 
numbers, and where practical, an example of the construct.) 
 
Providing the Components:  List of claws.  Or table which allows custom 
claws, followed by a list of appropriate levels for certain creatures.  Or 
a program which builds the actual example for you, based on the design 
information.  The important thing is that the user can relatively (compared 
to the design) quickly scan the available options, without worrying much 
(if any) about calculations. The user certainly doesn't need to know how to 
calculate active from base, or real from active--so he doesn't care about 
the actual values of those things--just whether they are there are not.  
(Just like weapons.  If you see "AP" in the notes, you only care how it 
works.  The cost only mattered when doing the design.  All those plusses 
and minuses really make Hero LOOK complicated.) 
 
Using it:  GM or player writes down a particular claw.  You need the DC, 
and advantages, but at most, you only need the real cost (and that only for 
a player, or a GM fussy about balancing his creatures.) 
 
So, by doing this, we've isolated the design from the guy who could care 
less about design--yet we've preserved the design for those who do care, 
like maybe the guy's GM.  This takes far more space that a single example 
of a Claw, but it takes far less space (both actual page space, bytes, or 
just "mental clutter" in a listing) when used for something reasonably 
common.  Maybe you're right about claws in particular.  Maybe Dave or 
someone else writes them up, and the listing is just too long for what it 
provides.  I don't think so, but we cannot really know for sure without 
trying it. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:25:48 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
If "components" is too much of a software term for Hero, just use the good 
ole Anglo-Saxon word, "parts."  That's what they are.  We'd probably have 
to call them Hero Parts (TM), though.  :-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 22:51:11 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz.  More like 25-30 
> MHz. 
 
Okay, while I might be confused, I think you are, too.  Try 25-30KHz, not 
MHz (25MHz is, well, radio). 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXNonp6VRH7BJMxHAQEiLQP+NDC14a95sBaCJaN+pbcDiRyxVon8EF2S 
vkEN69LK/H0A14OVxtGAlB8inxvg+oQTAM4CjQvfRDn3E8LG4dd5jVtvGD5OWSqp 
GEbPYLeUg4ea7OhKHmsD6MGhOlq3uWn6Aw1MkDhRVmY3EyWKc2zSjh/1k+GGYWSX 
7zsrAE/gEyA= 
=Gevi 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:52:30 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
<snip> I am thinking that you couldn't do much explaining the hows 
>and why of creature creation and not write dreck.  I've never looked at 
the 
>beastiaries so I don't know what Susko and Tabb wrote but I cannot imagine 
>a lot more text 14-16 pages.  32 pages would be far too much.  How much 
can 
>you say about claws without padding it unnecessarily?  I prefer terse 
writing. 
 
I prefer terse writing, also.  (And if that surprises you based on by posts 
to the list--remember I said I prefer it, not that I'm good at it off the 
cuff.)  Preferring terse is why I like A better than B--on an actual 
creature listing. 
 
A:  Claw, DC 3, rdcd pen. 
B:  Claw.  HKA 1d6 (15 base), rdcd pen -1/4, 15 Active, 12 Real. 
 
But I want B, or its equivalent, listed somewhere, in case I want to modify 
the claw.  Yes, I know this isn't much of a difference, and that the base 
and active are redundant (but they aren't always), and that the real is 
probably listed on the left in a table of the creature's powers.  But 
repeat it over and over in 192 pages, it adds up.  And some of the other 
potential Hero Parts in the Bestiary have a much greater difference.  
 
I do have the Bestiary.  If you took every good candidate for a Hero Part 
represented in the book, made it a component, stuck it in the front, 
expanded and extrapolated a bit to cover the holes--32 pages might not be 
enough.  Also, you could put more creatures in the remaining 160 than are 
currently represented AND make the listing easier to read. 
 
Melinda and Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jun 1998 22:57:23 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
>> Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs? 
 
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur. 
 
Actually, he is.  In the 1985-'95 Godzilla movies, it is revealed that he 
is a previously undiscovered species living on Lagos Island in the South 
Pacific, very close to Bikini Atol (he is retroactively credited with the 
elimination of a US Army unit -- he ate them). 
 
> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall. 
 
400 or so. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXNqC56VRH7BJMxHAQFR3QQApSuN9dhxZxyXAUe6DqbQ2vkIiHTow8PU 
M7qHN+NnlqcrNrKOxmFxq7/+4nDIJ6xZgE61hQaHA/SRLhr7myTmfTmBgIDHSMIQ 
XSScCIEu1VGakAh4hocmo7M36teqBPAfUHrbUi+Cqrflvb9bc5mWbF3CYoEjyh9Z 
5+AIr97hjp4= 
=7ZA3 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:08:41 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
I've simply got to drop out of this discussion until Sunday.  My wife's 
over here asking, "you are going to have the adventure ready by Saturday, 
aren't you."  And gee, I could do both, but I'm using a bought adventure.  
See, it's got several creatures in it that I've got to convert into Hero 
terms.  And I've got to design them all myself, more or less from scratch.  
(Or find something similar powers in my various Hero books, figure out how 
they were designed, allow for inconsistency, then modify to my campaign.  
On second thought, scratch is definitely the way to go.) 
 
Joe, that sharp pain in your back isn't a knife wound--it's a claw, AP, +1 
STUN, + poison.  Quick, use some of your unlimited "GM points"  and write 
yourself a healing aid linked to a dispel against poison.  :-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo orac.early.com from redlion@early.com server root@orac.early.com ip 204.170.83.2 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:04:21 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
 
> On Sun, 31 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>  
> > (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.) 
> >  
> > Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not 
> > appear to limit in any way? 
 
(rest of question snipped) 
 
Michael Surbrook replied: 
  
> A number of people in my local gaming group (myself included) did not like 
> the weapons rules given in FH, NH and  UMA.  We felt that the STR min and 
> damage values for the weapons were unrealistic.  So, we rewrote the 
> weapons (all of them).  Among the changes were lowered STR Mins, lowered 
> damage and removal of the +1 OCV mod for many weapons.  The results are on 
> my website in the Hero Source section. 
 
I rewrote nearly all the FH and NH weapons as well, to give them more 
reasonable STR minima and somewhat different damage effects, though my 
results differ from Michael's for certain weapons.  Michael and I debated 
various such changes several months ago.  Michael's revised weapons are 
well worth checking out. 
 
> > I wonder if it shouldn't be this way:  1.5 Handed as normal, except the 
> > weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands.  The owner can 
wield 
> > the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2. 
>  
> We upped it to +3 STR for 1-handed use. (or, -3 STR for two-handed use). 
>  
> > That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1 
> > hand at STR min + 5.  (Double the required STR sounds about right to me 
for 
> > 1 handed use.) 
 
I don't see 1.5-handed as a limitation the way 2-handed should be.  
1.5-handed is a feature of the weapon that provides an option to its use, 
and is usually but a variation of a 1-handed weapon, not a limitation to 
how it must be used.  The difference between a 1-handed longsword and a 
1.5-handed bastard sword is not always clear-cut--there is always a degree 
of variation in blade and handgrip lengths of weapons that can be classed 
together for game purposes. 
 
For 1.5-handed weapons, I view the STR Min as applicable for 1-handed use. 
 If a wielder who meets this Min chooses to swing it with 2-hands, 
forgoing the use of a shield or secondary weapon in the off-hand, the 
weapon's DC increases by one for the extra STR put behind the swing or 
thrust.  That's a trade-off available to anyone strong enough to wield the 
weapon 1-handed.  I'd rather simply add to the base damage then worry 
about the changes in STR Min breakpoints caused by a -2 or -3 STR Min 
reduction. 
 
For those rare occasions when a character who isn't strong enough to wield 
a weapon 1-handed effectively and who grips it with both hands to 
compensate--perhaps because of a STR Drain--I'd reduce the STR Min by -3.  
I wouldn't let a 5 STR character wield in both hands a sword with a 10 STR 
Min at base damage and no CV penalty, but I'd let a 7 or 8 STR character 
do so. 
  
> No.  That falls apart at higher levels.  You don't have to be *that* 
> strong to use a bastard sword one-handed.  This can also lead to more STR 
> inflation. 
 
No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13.  I treat a 
longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a heavier 
and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great sword a 
13 STR Min. 
 
> > Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance, 
> > and the height of the wielder.  Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using 
a 
> > halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed 
does 
> > not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different 
> > place? 
>  
> No one could ever use a halberd one-handed  regradless of how strong oyu 
> are.  The weapon is anywhere from 7' to 9' long and is used like an axe, 
> you need two hands to simply hold it properly, not to mention swing it.  A 
> spear can be used one-handed, but only to stab and thrust (the Norse did 
> this, combining spear and sheild.  The Greeks and Romans did it as well.) 
>   
> You would usually hold the weapon in an over-hand (over the shoulder) grip 
> and thrust with it. 
>  
> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of 
> strength.  The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding 
> factor. 
 
On the mark.  Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed 
stabbing spear.   
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-8.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.138 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:38:15 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id AAA02814 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about. 
 
It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but 
it's a part of it. It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1 
1/2-Handed" Limitation without mentioning STR Min. It's too intrinsically 
connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon to ignore. 
 
A weapon that is one-handed (the default) can be used normally (i.e. at the 
stated STR Min). Adding the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation (-1/4) reduces the 
cost slightly and results in a weapon that can still be used one-handed at 
the exact same STR Min; in addition, you may >opt< to use it two-handed for 
a little extra oomph. Thus, the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation in no way limits 
the weapon (not one bit...not even a little), and in fact increases the 
options that the wielder possesses. So where's the limitation? 
 
> The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be 
> able to use their off-hands for things like shields. 
 
No, it means they may >opt< not to use their off-hands for other things, in 
order to get that little extra kick from the weapon, but at no time will 
they ever "not be able" to use a shield. It's entirely the choice of the 
character in question. 
 
>  
> Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength.  Swinging it 
> with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield.  Swinging it 
> with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra 
points 
> of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need 
> against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers 
> your effective DCV.  *THAT* is why the limitation. 
 
I assume you mean a bastard sword. Again, it sounds like you are getting an 
advantage (the ability to do a little extra damage) for a limitation (the 
inability to use a shield). Debatably, the two factors should cancel each 
other out so that 1 1/2-handed should be the default. If a weapon is 
one-handed, you lose the ability to gain that extra little bit of damage, 
and if it's two-handed, you lose the ability to use a shield. 
 
Compare the bastard sword to the francisca (under axes) -- both have the 
same STR Min (13) and both do the same amount of damage (1 1/2d6 HKA), 
except that the francisca is a one-handed weapon and the bastard sword is a 
1 1/2-handed weapon. Thus, the bastard sword would get the -1/4 limitation, 
while the francisca would not. Your hypothetical STR 16 character can use 
either weapon one-handed, to exactly the same effect. But that fighter 
could, if he so chose, throw down his shield and grip the sword with both 
hands for an additional 1 Damage Class. The francisca (the "non-limited" 
weapon) does not offer this option. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:13:15 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> GAZZA  writes: 
> 
> > Running up buildings - 
> 
> This is a special effect, not a Power. 
> 
> [...] 
> 
> > Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") - 
> 
> Again, this is a special effect. 
> 
> Yes, there is frequently more than one way to simulate a particular special 
> effect.  But that is a different kettle of fish from using one power to 
> simulate another power. 
> 
> 
 
If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not look at 
me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use clinging 
to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or clinging 
for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from. 
 
Chad 
(sorry I jumped in on this late I was away for the weekend) 
 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:16:41 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id BAA04968 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
> No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13.  I treat a 
> longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a 
heavier 
> and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great sword 
a 
> 13 STR Min. 
 
I'm worried here that you might be falling into a trap I've seen others 
fall into (please correct me if I'm wrong), namely assuming that if a 
character doesn't meet the STR Min for a weapon, he can not use that weapon 
at all. In fact, I've even known some people to assume that the STR Min is 
the STR required to even >lift< the weapon, which is of course absurd. 
("Hmmm, looks like that broad sword weighs about 300 lbs..."). 
 
Remember that if a character falls below the STR Min, he can still use the 
weapon, but at reduced effect. Under "Explanation of Terms for Melee 
Weapons," (HSR, pg 203), the listing for STR Min says, "For STR Min, see 
above." referring to the listing under the Ranged Weapons chart. This 
implies that the guidelines given for STR Min under the Ranged Weapons 
chart should be used for melee weapons as well.  
 
That listing reads describes STR Min as "the minimum amount of STR 
necessary to FULLY control (emphasis mine) the weapon when firing." (note: 
in this case, read "firing" as "striking").  
 
It continues, "If the character has less STR than the STR Min, he takes -1 
OCV when firing for every 5 STR his STR is below the STR Min. The character 
also takes 1d6 normal damage for every 10 points the STR Min exceeds the 
character's STR." (I'm assuming the character's PD applies to that...) 
 
If you apply these guidelines to the melee weapons, then the listed STR 
Mins don't seem too off the mark; a STR 13 character CAN use a great sword, 
albeit at -1 OCV, and even a STR 8 character can use it, although he would 
receive 1d6 of damage with each swing, in addition to the -2 OCV. Of 
course, such puny characters could never add any STR to the base damage of 
the sword. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from robtwest@erols.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:16:59 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 03:03 PM 5/31/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> >If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time 
> >limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes 
> >back, and cannot affect the physical world.  It would probably be abusive 
> >to take recoveries in transit. 
>  
>    I think I'd allow Post-12, but not regular Recoveries since he's 
> exerting effort to move (which, I think, is your intent in the above 
> paragraph). 
 
Your surmise is correct: I don't think of the post-12 recovery as  
something that one "takes" -- it is automatic unless one is holding one's  
breath, unable to breathe or deeply unconscious. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:31:58 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Robert A West writes: 
>  
> >> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength 
> >> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10". 
> > That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature. 
>  
> Well, a limitation cannot (or at least should not) add mechanics to a 
> power, only take them away. 
 
Well, this is not strictly a true statement.  A Limitation does not take  
away mechanics, it takes away effectiveness.  If a new mechanic is  
required to describe the Limitation precisely, I see nothing in the rules  
nor in logic to deprecate the practice. 
 
In any case, there is no new mechanic here.  You are correct that, by  
strict game mechanics, the entire effect may be obtained with a minimum  
buy of Flight, appropriately limited.  To be precise, the GM in question  
imposed an increased minimum buy as a condition of taking the  
Limitation, which is perfectly within the discretion suggested in the  
BBB.  A case never came up where the formula would have yielded a  
sub-minimum buy; one could argue that either way. 
 
Of course, the player would be free to purchase additional Flight or to  
place non-combat multiples on it; however, this would be a waste of  
points.  I suppose that this could be useful if the larger amount of  
flight enabled it to fit into an EC. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:36:37 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Firelynx16  writes: 
>  
> > I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they 
> > ended up on the ground. 
>  
> [etc-etc-etc] 
>  
> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up? 
 
Picky, picky.  A character can be "knocked down" while in mid-air -- the  
character is tumbling or in an inconvenient orientation and requires a  
half-phase to right himself.  I am sure that this is what is meant. 
 
I agree with Bob's assessment that a breakfall roll at -1/1" of distance  
is the correct mechanic, as in the case of knockback. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:41:29 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz.  More like 25-30 
> MHz. 
 
Surely, you mean Kilohertz, not Megahertz. 
 
I still think that the ubiquitous high-pitched whine that almost all TVs  
and monitors give off comes from the flyback transformer (or whatever  
the thing is called these days), which would be around 15KHz for a  
535-line TV and probably almost twice that for a Multiscan monitor. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:12:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
Dale Ward wrote: 
 
> > 
>         I thought they had a Madison Ave. PR corp. on retainer to come up with 
> all the neato-keen nicknames. 
>         For instance, SCUD and Patriot missiles... basically, the same thing. 
> BUT, the Patriot is OURS (Yay!!) while the SCUD is THEIRS (Boo!!) 
>  
>         It's all just PR. 
 
Uhh....try again.  Some of our nicknames for weapons are not particularly  
patriotic, they just sound dangerous: Sabre, Phantom, HARM, HEAT,  
Tomahawk, Sidewinder, Warthog.  Most of the names are assigned by the  
teams that build the prototypes and are, strictly speaking, unofficial.   
Of course, only a dork or an ensign (oops!  same thing!) would casually  
refer to a Tomahawk as a BGM-109. 
 
Scud (skud) v.i. to run quickly; (sailing) run before a gale of wind with  
little or no sail spread; n. the act of scudding; loose vapory clouds  
driven by the wind, usually presaging a storm. 
 
The SS-1 is a liquid-fuelded surface-to-surface medium-range ballistic  
missile.  Its design mission is to attack front-and-second-line troops in  
large quantities, disorganizing the enemy and making them more vulnerable  
to assault.  As such, the NATO code name, "Scud" is very appropriate.  I  
assume that the Soviets gave the weapon some nickname of their own. 
 
The Patriot Missile is a solid-fueled, radar-guided ground-to-air  
missile.  Its original design mission was to attack aircraft, but it was  
modified in the late 1980's to defend moderately hard targets against  
missile attack.  It was essentially of no value in defending soft targets  
in the Gulf war, but Jane's Defense Weekly reports that upgrades since  
then have made it more suitable to that mission as well. 
 
Of course, I contend that the Patriot was 100% effective at its *real*  
mission, which was to keep Israel out of the Gulf War. 
 
In any event, the two weapons are markedly different in technology,  
design and mission.  About their only similarity is that they use rocket  
motors and carry warheads.   
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:25:13 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 18 
 
Remnant wrote: 
>  
> Someone writes: 
 
Hmmm....suddenly I am just "someone" to everyone by Rat and Bob  
Greenwood.  Is this an evil plot of my nemesis, Net Master, to delete me  
from the world's consciousness?  Stay tuned, true believers.  :-) 
 
>  
> >> >I don't think that the Impairment and Disabling rules do more than give 
> a 
> >> >GM an excuse to exercise fiat in such matters. 
>  
> Remnant responds facetiously: 
>  
> >> Isn't that all any of the rules do? 
> >> 
> >> Alan 
>  
> Robert A. West properly jumps my case for it. 
>  
> >IMNSHO: *NO*! 
>  
> <Perfectly valid argument snipped> 
>  
> Remnant asks for forgiveness. 
 
And I, in turn, ask for forgiveness for not seeing that this was an  
attempt to make a point with humor.  I have recently been involved in an  
argument in another forum which is working on a major rewrite to another  
rules system, and someone seriously advocated the position that you  
parodied.  I saw your statement in that light. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:03:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>  
>    Yeah, I've generally kinda hit the middle between your two examples; 
> rules talk is moderately heavy, but not ridiculous. 
>    Generally, each action phase should take: 
>    - about 30-60 seconds for a player to decide what to do 
 
Too slow IMHO, but typical. 
 
>    - anywhere from nothing to a minute, with a general maximum of 3 
> minutes, to figure out all the modifiers (depending on how complex the 
> action is) 
 
Gleep!  A full minute to figure out modifiers?  For a novice player,  
perhaps, but I have never seen that for an experienced player before two  
in the morning. 
 
BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need.  They make a skill  
roll and tell me how much they succeeded by.  "I made my DEX roll by 3,"  
to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to  
hold on."  That would indicate a -3 modifier. 
 
Attack rolls are similar.  The players roll and add obvious modifiers,  
such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!"  I then inform them of  
whether that hit or not.  Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,  
this can vary from phase to phase. 
 
>    - 15-45 seconds to roll and add dice (possibly more if there are 
> Required Skill Rolls and such) 
 
15 seconds seems to be typical.  Perhaps 30 seconds for the combination  
of complementary skill roll, primary skill roll, attack roll and result  
roll.  In any case, my players typically have pre-rolled their dice,  
which speeds things up a lot. 
 
The fast way to add dice is to group the pips into tens or twenties.  The  
fastest way to compute BODY on normal dice is a slightly improvement on  
what you sugggested.  Pair ones and sixes, don't count them.  If they are  
equal, the BODY equals the dice of the attack; if the sixes predominate,  
increase the BODY by the number of extra sixes, if the ones predominate,  
decrease the BODY by the number of extra ones. 
 
>    - 30 seconds to apply defenses to any damage, and damage to stats. 
 
There are faster ways to do this.  One is to use tally notation, counting  
END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining.  Another is to print off a series  
of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to  
represent END, STUN and BODY.  At the beginning of play, one marks off  
with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56  
STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the  
blocks thereafter.  One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,  
and erases as STUN is recovered. 
 
In any event, the GM can note for the NPCs while the next player is  
dithering, and the player can note while the GM speaks to the next  
player. 
 
>    That comes to a range of 1:15 to 5:15 for each action phase, and allows 
> for math dopes as well as math whizzes.  Assuming that the median (3:15) is 
> also the average, that a typical combat takes 8 phases per character (which 
> is probably a high estimate), and that a typical fight is 5 on 5, I figure 
> that this comes to 2 hours 20 minutes per combat. 
 
We tend to run about three hours, but our combats are larger (six PCs and  
two followers vs an equal or greater number of opponents) and tend to be  
complex running affairs, where the GM must take frequent pauses to  
consider what the opponents would reasonably do, given their imperfect  
knowledge.  The fastest character often gets fifteen or even thirty  
actions, while the slowest character gets about half that.  We also tend  
to have at least three five or ten minute rules arguments during the run,  
and the battles tend to be after midnight -- four hours of role-playing  
followed by a battle that runs three hours, when the GM has been at work  
since 5AM.  Things would go much faster if I were younger or less tired. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4 
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 05:56:14 -0500 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:04 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Len Carpenter wrote: 
>> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of 
>> strength.  The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding 
>> factor. 
> 
>On the mark.  Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed 
>stabbing spear.   
 
Yes, but could Superman? (Or, to retain fantasy, could Hercules?) 
 
Personally, I'd prefer to see "2-handed" as a limitation reserved  
solely for those weapons which require 2 hands by design (a bow),  
rather than by practicality (a pollaxe); weapons which are two-handed 
by reason of weight and balance seem to me better represented by  
obscene STR minima, lowered if you use two hands. Of course, the  
problem there is that the usual one/two hand difference (+/-5 STR -- 
this principle is used in both STR minima and gripping STR in  
different books, IIRC) is too small to create a weapon usable  
two-handed by normals and not usable one-handed by Conan. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:59:45 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 23 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
 
> Compare the bastard sword to the francisca (under axes) -- both have the 
> same STR Min (13) and both do the same amount of damage (1 1/2d6 HKA), 
> except that the francisca is a one-handed weapon and the bastard sword is a 
> 1 1/2-handed weapon. Thus, the bastard sword would get the -1/4 limitation, 
> while the francisca would not. Your hypothetical STR 16 character can use 
> either weapon one-handed, to exactly the same effect. But that fighter 
> could, if he so chose, throw down his shield and grip the sword with both 
> hands for an additional 1 Damage Class. The francisca (the "non-limited" 
> weapon) does not offer this option. 
 
Yes, but you can throw the francisca. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.137 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:21:07 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id JAA21380 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   That last part is the crux of the thing, though -- Hero doesn't have 
*just* a list of powers (by which, I take it, you mean SFX-based powers as 
opposed to the game-effect-based Powers it does have a list of).  A list of 
SFX-based powers is a good thing, of course; that's the centerpiece of this 
argument.  In hero, though, there should and will always be ways of 
modifying these powers so characters and their abilities can be 
customized.< 
 
Oh yeah, I agree totally.  But I think H4 could really benefit from having 
a huge list of SFX-based powers inserted in front of the power creation 
rules, so that players only have to delve into that complexity every now 
and then...most of what they want will already be defined for them, so they 
just transcribe it to their character sheet and move on.  It seems like 
either Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes was like this, but I haven't opened 
my (1st edition) boxes of either game for many years.  Maybe the "Superhero 
Campaign Book" that is scheduled for release in the distant future could 
define a bunch of archetypes....ice powers, illusionist powers, stuff like 
that.  I don't see this happening (it's somewhat against the HSR mindset), 
but it could help newbies especially. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:36:01 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
At 01:03 AM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    Yeah, I've generally kinda hit the middle between your two examples; 
>> rules talk is moderately heavy, but not ridiculous. 
>>    Generally, each action phase should take: 
>>    - about 30-60 seconds for a player to decide what to do 
> 
>Too slow IMHO, but typical. 
 
   This would include the time it takes to describe his action to the GM, 
including any soliloquy. 
 
>>    - anywhere from nothing to a minute, with a general maximum of 3 
>> minutes, to figure out all the modifiers (depending on how complex the 
>> action is) 
> 
>Gleep!  A full minute to figure out modifiers?  For a novice player,  
>perhaps, but I have never seen that for an experienced player before two  
>in the morning. 
 
   This allows for the time it takes to look up a modifier on a list of 
maneuvers, possibly check in one of the books if something unusual is being 
done, count hexes to determine Range Modifiers, etc. 
 
>>    - 15-45 seconds to roll and add dice (possibly more if there are 
>> Required Skill Rolls and such) 
> 
>15 seconds seems to be typical.  Perhaps 30 seconds for the combination  
>of complementary skill roll, primary skill roll, attack roll and result  
>roll.  In any case, my players typically have pre-rolled their dice,  
>which speeds things up a lot. 
> 
>The fast way to add dice is to group the pips into tens or twenties.  The  
>fastest way to compute BODY on normal dice is a slightly improvement on  
>what you sugggested.  Pair ones and sixes, don't count them.  If they are  
>equal, the BODY equals the dice of the attack; if the sixes predominate,  
>increase the BODY by the number of extra sixes, if the ones predominate,  
>decrease the BODY by the number of extra ones. 
 
   15 seconds is on the short side for someone who makes a standard normal 
attack and can count fairly quickly, making only an Attack Roll and damage 
roll; the longer time is for someone who needs to separate dice (e.g., if 
they made a 3-1/2d6 KA, one die is the half-die and one is the STUN 
Modifier die -- though I use Hit Locations in my game, so that would be 
three additional dice instead of one).  When there are Required Skill Rolls 
with Complementary Rolls and other modifiers, it can take even longer. 
 
>>    - 30 seconds to apply defenses to any damage, and damage to stats. 
> 
>There are faster ways to do this.  One is to use tally notation, counting  
>END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining.  Another is to print off a series  
>of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to  
>represent END, STUN and BODY.  At the beginning of play, one marks off  
>with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56  
>STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the  
>blocks thereafter.  One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,  
>and erases as STUN is recovered. 
> 
>In any event, the GM can note for the NPCs while the next player is  
>dithering, and the player can note while the GM speaks to the next  
>player. 
 
   Good advice, all of it (not just the immediately above).  There does 
need to be enough time spent before the next turn is decided, though, to 
figure out if the figure being hit is Stunned, rendered unconscious, etc. 
In this case, though, the 30 seconds given is probably a bit long; 15 
seconds for both functions is probably more like it, even assuming the 
person doing it is slow at math.  This would reduce each turn in my 
calculations to a straight 1-5 minutes, with some bias toward the low end. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:39:04 -0700 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 30 
 
At 12:25 AM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Remnant wrote: 
>>  
>> Someone writes: 
> 
>Hmmm....suddenly I am just "someone" to everyone by Rat and Bob  
>Greenwood.  Is this an evil plot of my nemesis, Net Master, to delete me  
>from the world's consciousness?  Stay tuned, true believers.  :-) 
 
   I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can find 
that directly quotes your work has your full name on it.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:42:42 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
At 09:25 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>If "components" is too much of a software term for Hero, just use the good 
>ole Anglo-Saxon word, "parts."  That's what they are.  We'd probably have 
>to call them Hero Parts (TM), though.  :-) 
 
   Better yet, we could call them... Plug-Ins! 
   <Runs for cover...> 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:53:44 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 31 
 
At 09:52 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>I do have the Bestiary.  If you took every good candidate for a Hero Part 
>represented in the book, made it a component, stuck it in the front, 
>expanded and extrapolated a bit to cover the holes--32 pages might not be 
>enough.  Also, you could put more creatures in the remaining 160 than are 
>currently represented AND make the listing easier to read. 
 
   Do you have the first edition Bestiary?  Susko had a pretty cool trick 
in that one that should have been kept for the second edition.  Each 
creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another 
table was given detailing the changes for other types.  For "Camel-Like 
Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for 
a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a 
llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca.  I've never heard of a guanaco 
or a vicuna, but I could always look it up in the dictionary and 
encyclopedia, and if they seem appropriate to the setting I'm sending my 
PCs to, they can encounter one, and I don't have to sit and figure out what 
it's like. 
   Of course, it's just one step down the ladder, for GMs and players who 
are even lazier than I am, to create a table that shows benchmarks for what 
kind of damage is done by various creature bites, claws, tail swipes, etc., 
along with guidelines on how this can be modified for specific cases. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:59:55 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
At 10:51 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz.  More like 25-30 
>> MHz. 
> 
>Okay, while I might be confused, I think you are, too.  Try 25-30KHz, not 
>MHz (25MHz is, well, radio). 
 
   Quite so, I had a bit of prefix confusion there... though I'm pretty 
sure that those radio waves are electromagnetic, not sonic. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@saturn.superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:30:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 34 
 
> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not  
look at  
> me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use  
clinging  
> to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or  
clinging  
> for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from.  
 
Clinging, Ranged.  You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the 
nearby building walls and running along them.  You don't get as much 
knockback because you -1D6 for clinging and +1D6 for being in the air for 
a net 2D6 of knockback.  The special effect is reactive TK.  HERO TK is 
nonreactive.  Suppose you could grab an airplane telekinetically and be 
pulled off of the ground.  Ranged Clinging, try it today.  :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.ucsf.edu from dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu server @mail.ucsf.EDU ip 128.218.95.23 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> At 06:54 AM 6/1/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> >>  But that is an example.  You would only include it in dinosaurs and 
> >> Godzilla.  Even dragons are too small for line attack claws. 
> > 
> >Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs? 
>  
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur.  He is usually called hundreds of feet tall. 
> Dragons are usually tens of feet long.  (Based on my extensive AD&D 
> background. :-)  Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't 
> think there were any long armed dinosaurs. 
 
*Large* long-armed dinosaurs?  The segnosaurians were of a respectable 
size, and had pretty long arms (although probably not enough to warrant 
AoE on their claws, for the most part).  _Therezinosaurus cheloniformis_, 
a probably segnosaur, appears to have had claws measuring almost a meter 
in length, at the end of a pair of eight-foot arms.  (It's only known from 
a pectoral girdle, so we don't have much idea how big the rest of the 
animal was.)  I don't know if that would meet requirements for an AoE 
attack. 
 
Oviraptorosaurs had pretty long arms, too, but they were small overall. 
Brachiosaurs, of course, had massive arms, but they were used for walking 
(and, presumably, stomping.) :) 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www08.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www08.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.28 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:29:12 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 37 
 
I have been considering what it means to have NRM on a Power, 
and what it means when firing blind. Here is my take on it, just to start 
things off. 
 
Under normal conditions, a Power with NRM takes no range modifier, 
that much is obvious. However, when firing blind, different factors 
take effect. 
 
Take Eyebeam Man. His namesake Power is the Power to shoot 
beams of energy from his eyes at whatever his eyes look at. Eyebeam 
Man has a 10d6 EB, NRM. If he can see it, he can hit it. 
 
Now, put a blindfold on Eyebeam Man, and tie him to a chair in a 
location he knows well, such as his living room. Now, have him shoot 
at targets, one across the room in front of his fireplace, one across the 
yard in front of his tree, and one in the front yard of his neighbor, who 
lives a mile down the road. 
 
There are two different factors here. One is hitting the target, that is 
shooting blind with a NRM Power, but the other is _locating_ blind, 
and that is much, much harder. 
 
Someone on the list recently reported that he thought he had a 14- 
AK for his local neighborhood. So, how likely do you think it is that 
even a person with this level of knowledge will be able to accurately 
target a location he cannot see, at a considerable distance, even 
with a NRM attack power? 
 
Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be 
fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of 
Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range 
modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how 
do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you 
give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are 
the modifiers? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:14:27 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:30 AM 6/2/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not 
look at  
>> me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use 
clinging  
>> to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or 
clinging  
>> for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from.  
> 
>Clinging, Ranged.  You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the 
>nearby building walls and running along them.  You don't get as much 
>knockback because you -1D6 for clinging and +1D6 for being in the air for 
>a net 2D6 of knockback.  The special effect is reactive TK.  HERO TK is 
>nonreactive.  Suppose you could grab an airplane telekinetically and be 
>pulled off of the ground.  Ranged Clinging, try it today.  :-) 
 
   Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that this 
sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:19:15 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
> Well, this is not strictly a true statement.  A Limitation does not take 
> away mechanics, it takes away effectiveness.  If a new mechanic is 
> required to describe the Limitation precisely, I see nothing in the rules 
> nor in logic to deprecate the practice. 
 
I think I misused "mechanic".  The point is that a Limitation should not 
change how a power fundamentally works.  The Limitation in question does 
that: it ties Flight speed with mass.  Yes, it makes that Flight less 
Effective, but it does so in a way that it probably should not.  And it 
does it in a rather sloppy fashion: how did the 1" Flight (2AP) = 5 
Strength (5AP) formula come into being, and why the obvious dichotomy in 
active points? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRCH56VRH7BJMxHAQEIxQP+NZZkyi9QQDBOBc8LiOv+ufU7ffyRNFMz 
azZQOFXiSMzgWFhh3sPUKyCRHRNtk8DRwu5gYXSNzHlvUc/ChQkmcEx+0JFvtOLt 
WtXSUOQ4IRf/cHL8U87TdmF3IDcTKpfOxxFQp+InWcTQeUobp5LRKW9FF85v4wvG 
/ffBsN/sn04= 
=Sckn 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:23:25 -0400 
Lines: 40 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Chad Riley writes: 
 
> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not 
> look at me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" 
 
No, but if you are going to model these effects in Hero, those are special 
effects.  How is it that you can run up walls?  Are you just running very 
fast?  Or are you digging into the surface with claws, like a lizard?  For 
the former I would use limited Flight; but for the latter I certainly would 
use Clinging. 
 
> Now sure, you can't use clinging to simulate flight, but you clould use 
> flight to simulate running, or clinging for that matter. So I don't see 
> where your point is coming from. 
 
The point is that there is a "super climbing" construct in Dark Champions 
that uses Clinging that can be better accomplished either with a normal 
Climbing skill roll, the extraordinary skills rule, or limited Flight. 
 
> Chad (sorry I jumped in on this late I was away for the weekend) 
 
The weekend?  This thing has been going on for two *weeks*. :) 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRDGJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHJ4AP5Ad1fhTlHVxq4s0yIwpO/Aq1qMaATx8jB 
uXfVrjvW5JFUSWv1mUCXsj/4NMHVVV8k6p8IMIr5KRbAkw2LnJdUX/DeaPFyxjM5 
czl8ZJkUV9xFh6+HQpPhMhip6ndbm1SIrmpfJiXRSpFHfx+piiKTVH+T5TkHXHls 
djJrV+BmMWM= 
=Rb2S 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:24:01 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Clinging, Ranged.  You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the 
> nearby building walls and running along them. 
 
Um, no.  The power is "Swinging". 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRDP56VRH7BJMxHAQFY8QP+OYKaarfFGMwsOsyTpyKGDjJCAFYWFnJj 
G+eZEqprvmNcgPB49lVig/hk5eWtLIl3XhyLlUwMJui8tVxmEZkjS1Jc0+VBOlVN 
ZinjjG5HtVVaSO+dprozr7Y8Wdan6S+f3yfRoqS+hOM/Hj/liHsTAlPfMe08FGL3 
4ixXHmFYuBU= 
=G72K 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:25:08 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:29 PM 6/2/1998, Filksinger wrote: 
>I have been considering what it means to have NRM on a Power, 
>and what it means when firing blind. Here is my take on it, just to start 
>things off. 
> 
>Under normal conditions, a Power with NRM takes no range modifier, 
>that much is obvious. However, when firing blind, different factors 
>take effect. 
> 
>Take Eyebeam Man. His namesake Power is the Power to shoot 
>beams of energy from his eyes at whatever his eyes look at. Eyebeam 
>Man has a 10d6 EB, NRM. If he can see it, he can hit it. 
> 
>Now, put a blindfold on Eyebeam Man, and tie him to a chair in a 
>location he knows well, such as his living room. Now, have him shoot 
>at targets, one across the room in front of his fireplace, one across the 
>yard in front of his tree, and one in the front yard of his neighbor, who 
>lives a mile down the road. 
> 
>There are two different factors here. One is hitting the target, that is 
>shooting blind with a NRM Power, but the other is _locating_ blind, 
>and that is much, much harder. 
> 
>Someone on the list recently reported that he thought he had a 14- 
>AK for his local neighborhood. So, how likely do you think it is that 
>even a person with this level of knowledge will be able to accurately 
>target a location he cannot see, at a considerable distance, even 
>with a NRM attack power? 
> 
>Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be 
>fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of 
>Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range 
>modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how 
>do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you 
>give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are 
>the modifiers? 
 
   Here's an idea; let's see who likes it. 
   If you're firing blind, normal Range Modifiers apply for targeting *in 
addition* to any Range Modifiers for guiding your attack to its target. 
   In most cases, this means that Range Modifiers double.  However, 
built-in Range Skill Levels (as part of a weapon) only count for the 
"delivery" half and not the "targeting" half.  Also, even weapons that have 
No Range Modifier -- including Mental Powers -- get these Range Modifiers. 
   All this is in addition to the existing rule of firing at OCV 0, and the 
requirement of at least shooting at the correct hex. 
   Of course, a sufficiently powerful Mind Scan can negate these penalties, 
but that's a whole different story. 
 
   This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules.  If there have ever been 
any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I 
don't know where it is.  It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in 
front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going 
to hit the wall.  But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be 
nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event 
is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:26:38 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
>> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up? 
 
> Picky, picky. 
 
Just trying to cover all the bases.  "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting 
straight up 5". 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRD3Z6VRH7BJMxHAQFOIgQAyhXPY8vvIZtKKwX2keHPPRdW5CFhjnTH 
6JlSBYN2VS+Ejf7hUuLOci2oD2x2YeOC312alo8zDhkZgQhGNUbnLRfr/LrEeLt0 
XPkNsPz3DjwcmLp+L2Hut5lTZPoQ5YfxHvtSob+t1jVRrYUKcR37PpQr8BmrGDmv 
x6xJ1Zb5ISs= 
=dvUz 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www05.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www05.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.25 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:31:47 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 36 
 
> From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
>Ranged Clinging, try it today.  :-) 
>  
>   Joe 
 
NO. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:33:15 -0400 
Lines: 43 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Jeff M Reid writes: 
 
>> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about. 
 
> It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but 
> it's a part of it. 
 
No, it is *NOT*.  The hands Limitations is *NOT* a Strength Minimum 
modifier.  Do not treat it as such.  Stop thinking of it as such and it 
starts making sense. 
 
> It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1 1/2-Handed" 
> Limitation without mentioning STR Min. 
 
Sure, you can.  A 1.5 handed weapon can be wielded with one hand with a 
shield in the other hand.  Or it can be wielded with two hands to do more 
damage. 
 
Okay, that's cheating. :) 
 
> It's too intrinsically connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon 
> to ignore. 
 
I did not say ignore Strength Minimum.  I said ignore it in the context of 
the Limitation. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRFa56VRH7BJMxHAQFFnwQAw8a8Gu5H+18PqRngsNzwxBYZq/cD2TOB 
Pv1iYGytawUZUsSAcU1h5avASd3gHHdzqheJY2aVvArLYQanlB/ZL2JjbPgw3fxY 
T9M/MyUa0vdp8bPH9N11+68hZVhCt8/FlKMZ9z5HCN2M/MLjYT10sGAQyxX6nAdq 
fRr2/qzb6yI= 
=PPHx 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel8.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel8.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.58 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:50:30 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:26 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Robert A West writes: 
> 
>>> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up? 
> 
>> Picky, picky. 
> 
>Just trying to cover all the bases.  "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting 
>straight up 5". 
> 
 
 
No ... I don't think it can.  Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
You cannot abort to a teleport.  
 
You can dive for cover straight up by jumping to whatever height 
your strength will support.  (I dunno about Superleap.  Again, that 
would be turning on a power -- something you can't do on an abort.) 
And if you're jumping, there should be no need for a breakfall or 
acrobatics roll.  You would land on your feet (at the end of your  
phase) just as you would in a normal jump. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: dobrien@e-mail.com 
X-SMTP: helo e-mail.com from dobrien@e-mail.com server @e-mail.com ip 204.146.168.195 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:10:08 EDT 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien 
               Consulting Systems Engineer 
               VM Systems Software 15863            (925) 675-5594 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.      
> 
>It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but         
>it's a part of it. It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1          
>1/2-Handed" Limitation without mentioning STR Min. It's too intrinsically       
>connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon to ignore.                     
> 
>A weapon that is one-handed (the default) can be used normally (i.e. at the     
>stated STR Min). Adding the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation (-1/4) reduces the        
>cost slightly and results in a weapon that can still be used one-handed at      
>the exact same STR Min; in addition, you may >opt< to use it two-handed for     
>a little extra oomph. Thus, the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation in no way limits      
>the weapon (not one bit...not even a little), and in fact increases the         
>options that the wielder possesses. So where's the limitation?                  
 
Jeff,                                                                            
You're right, STR Min is broken the way it is written.  The writer simply        
wasn't thinking clearly.  My house rule (it is a change from the rule as         
written) is that the calculated STR Min is for 2-handed use, and the STR         
Min is 2 pts higher when used 1-handed.                                          
 
                                             Dennis                              
 
"The only downside I can see is that when the human part dies and you're         
at the funeral, the cyborg part will try to claw its way out of the              
casket and slay all the mourners".  -- Scott Adams on Cyborgs                    
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel8.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel8.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.58 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:11:09 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be 
>fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of 
>Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range 
>modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how 
>do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you 
>give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are 
>the modifiers? 
 
The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range.  No modifiers, I 
would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM.  All of  
this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other 
than sight. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 15:22:12 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Mike Christodoulou writes: 
 
> No ... I don't think it can.  Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
> You cannot abort to a teleport. 
 
Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move.  Nowhere in the 
descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of 
movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of 
effect". 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRQ456VRH7BJMxHAQHUBgP9GIv+1gt2LhvRp4mw3EaBmNVMvY6wcEgb 
JfQuKlIPpC/JMMN7ZdDCv6yRrCUzlcIAw7dd6QGw5lEtr/lVA8aiDjawZneWsxLc 
4B1XXVemPVp8BKSnPg7Ly1Y3ZaEWV3j1v4fcZaMjdFZpJHw1VIYx/52ugsjV8WXF 
B6J2UK3l42w= 
=PW92 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:52:26 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Acrobatics 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA06337 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread, 
which reminded me of some questions I have about its use. 
 
Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but 
I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like 
the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take 
advantage of it once they have it. 
 
* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?  
Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?  What 
bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?  One common maneuver 
I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from 
behind for a bonus.  Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a 
villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so 
you get a bonus.  That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had 
one player who was inventive with Acrobatics. 
 
* It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing flips and 
whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to fail.  
Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see the 
same attitude in your games? 
 
* If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the 
rest of their phase, or is this too harsh?  As with many aspects of 
superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when 
we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the 
comics.  There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a 
simple manuever and fail miserably. 
 
* If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other 
threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official), 
then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all?  Why not just 
expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain 
Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have Breakfall 
without having Acrobatics? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel8.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel8.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.58 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:03:19 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:22 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Mike Christodoulou writes: 
> 
>> No ... I don't think it can.  Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
>> You cannot abort to a teleport. 
> 
>Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move.  Nowhere in the 
>descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of 
>movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of 
>effect". 
 
That's correct.  Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably 
valid methods of DFC.  However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort 
to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc.   (REF: Abort 
rules.) 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo orac.early.com from redlion@early.com server root@orac.early.com ip 204.170.83.2 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:17:05 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13.  I 
treat a 
>> longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a 
heavier 
>> and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great 
sword 
>> a 13 STR Min. 
 
Jeff M. Reid replied: 
 
> I'm worried here that you might be falling into a trap I've seen 
others 
> fall into (please correct me if I'm wrong), namely assuming that if 
a 
> character doesn't meet the STR Min for a weapon, he can not use 
that weapon 
> at all. In fact, I've even known some people to assume that the STR 
Min is 
> the STR required to even >lift< the weapon, which is of course 
absurd. 
> ("Hmmm, looks like that broad sword weighs about 300 lbs..."). 
 
No, I'm aware of the rules regarding STR Min from HSR and FH.  A 
character with an 8 STR can still wield an 18 STR Min halberd, albeit 
at the penalties you quoted from HSR. 
 
(Official rules quoted snipped) 
  
> If you apply these guidelines to the melee weapons, then the listed 
STR 
> Mins don't seem too off the mark; a STR 13 character CAN use a 
great sword, 
> albeit at -1 OCV, and even a STR 8 character can use it, although 
he would 
> receive 1d6 of damage with each swing, in addition to the -2 OCV. 
Of 
> course, such puny characters could never add any STR to the base 
damage of 
> the sword. 
  
Yes, the STR Mins are way off the mark.  Consider the 18 STR Min 
halberd.  This means the vast majority of Swiss Halberdiers of the 
late Middle Ages and early Renaissance were not using their weapons 
at full effectiveness, unless you're willing to concede the average 
Halberdier was built like Schwarzenegger.  Halberds typically weighed 
from 9 to 12 pounds, not too cumbrous a weight for a 13 STR man to 
wield with facility. 
 
By the way, a STR 8 character is hardly "puny"--he or she is simply 
average.  Such a character should be able to wield a rapier or short 
sword at no penalty; these blades weighed on the average about 2 
pounds.  A knight's long sword rarely weighed more than 3 pounds, and 
a falchion no more than 4 pounds.  A war sword weighed 4.5 to 5 
pounds, and most great swords 7 to 8 pounds.  (While even heavier 
swords hold places in modern museums, many of these were forged for 
ceremonial uses, not for the battlefield.)  It took a strong, healthy 
man to wield a war sword to full effect, but he needn't have been a 
power lifter.  A 13 STR knight doesn't deserve an OCV penalty for 
wielding a great sword in a tourney; a mighty 18 STR knight does 
deserve the damage bonus for his extraordinary brawn.  How much 
damage a basic great sword does is up to the GM, of course. 
 
For the sake of comparison, the strength minimums in GURPS don't show 
nearly the broad spread as they do in HSR and FH, with a character 
needing to be three times as strong in Hero to wield a great sword as 
compared to a short sword.  In GURPS, it's ST 12 vs. ST 7, and ST 12 
is only 1.7 times stronger than ST 7.  A bastard sword in GURPS, when 
wielded in two hands rather than one, sees its ST minimum drop from 
11 to 10, and its damage improves by +1. 
 
But then, the weapons data in GURPS are based more on realistic 
interpretations of length, weight, and construction than on Hero's 
slavish reliance on the STR Min formula of Active Points/2, with 
weapon names at times applied rather arbitrarily.  A broad sword in 
FH gets a +1 OCV, while a scimitar doesn't.  Presumably, the broad 
sword is a quicker, more agile weapon, yet it has a higher STR Min.  
Huh?  Hardly a realistic distinction between the two.  The scimitar's 
lack of an OCV bonus is solely to balance the Active Points for its 
lower STR Min. 
 
While the STR Min formula aids in the construction of new weapons, it 
doesn't always promote reasonable depictions of real-world weapons, 
which aren't necessarily balanced in their attributes and efficacy.  
Some weapons are simply more efficient than others in their damage 
potential, though they may be comparable in the muscle-power required 
to use them.  The STR Min formula forces too many compromises, so I 
often sidestep it.  And as page 201 of HSR says, "STR Min is an 
optional statistic, and the GM shouldn't use it if he doesn't want 
to."  I use it, but not the way the formula dictates.   
 
If a GM chooses to adhere to this formula at the expense of sound 
damage figures and OCV modifiers, then instead of calling a halberd a 
2d6+1 damage weapon with an 18 STR Min, why not treat it as a 2d6 
damage attack with a more reasonable 15 STR Min?  The halberd didn't 
weigh markedly more than a fauchard, so why should it take 1.5 times 
as much STR to wield it without penalty? 
 
There's plenty to gripe about in FH's weapons list.  Hence the time 
investment so many of us have made in rewriting it. 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.137 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:38:41 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Anime Hero 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA08142 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this 
was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style.  Apparantly 
there's a new game out which sounds similar to the "Anime Hero" idea.  
Here's an excerpt from the Crossroads Gazette, an RPG newsletter for the 
CompuServe RPG forum, describing this new game: 
----------------------------------------- 
Big Eyes Small Mouth 
Anime RPG System 
Written by Mark C. Mackinnon 
 
This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system 
to permit people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese 
animation) style games. It uses a minimalistic rules system 
which works great for this style. The book contains a lot of 
artwork, about half of which is fair, and the other half is 
great. The book itself has a lot of interesting insight into 
the reasoning behind the rules, about role-playing anime 
games, and about various other aspects of the genre and such. 
The only thing missing, imo, is a sample adventure or three, 
although there are quite a lot of ideas. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo send1d.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1d.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.48 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:52:28 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---David Stallard  wrote: 
 
(note: paragraphs juggled to group them in the order I felt like 
responding to them) 
 
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, 
but 
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players 
like 
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take 
> advantage of it once they have it. 
> 
> * It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing 
flips and 
> whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to 
fail.  
> Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see 
the 
> same attitude in your games? 
> 
> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and 
lose the 
> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh?  As with many aspects of 
> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed 
roll" when 
> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common 
in the 
> comics.  There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained 
Acrobat do a 
> simple manuever and fail miserably. 
 
It's much to harsh if you actually want the plays to use the skill. 
Separate "failure" from "catestrophic failure" in your mind.  If a PC 
tries something creative in combat using acrobatics, success should 
give him some small OCV or DCV bonus; for a failure, depending on what 
was attempted, some OCV/DCV mods might be appropriate, or might not, 
judge based on the attempted action; catestrophic failure (like 
rolling an 18) might actually drop him on his face, lose his action, 
scrag his DCV, etc, etc, etc. 
 
Remember, if you penalize the PCs to much when they try to be 
creative, they'll stop trying.  This is the Hero System - it's ok to 
encourage levels of heroic activity that might be considered stupid in 
the real world. 
 
 
>* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some 
examples?  
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?  
What 
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?  
 
Those small bonuses are important.  Offensive, I usually award bonuses 
for a successful (and clever) acrobatic maneuver as per the emamy 
being suprised: +1 to +3 OCV depending on how clever and how 
successful, frequently using the complimentary skill rules as a 
partial guide (+1 for every -2 the roll was made by).  I treat 
defensive actions in a similar manner.  The key (for the PCs) to 
having acrobatics work for them is to be creative.  Don't just tell 
you "I do an acrobatic leap" and expect to get anything. Describe to 
me exactly what you're attempting to do.  I had one player who (when 
using miniatures for combat) would move his miniature around the 
board, flipping it head over feat, making silly sound effects as he 
went, to show exactly what his character was doing - it was like 
watching a kid play with action figures, but it was very descriptive 
of what he was trying to do. 
 
 
> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from 
other 
> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is 
official), 
> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all?  Why not 
just 
> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain 
> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have 
Breakfall 
> without having Acrobatics? 
 
Actually, you've more or less described 3rd edition Acrobatics.  The 
Breakfall component was separated out for 4th edition as part of the 
attempt to "normalize" the skills (make all skills have the same cost 
and similar level of potential functionality).  Acrobatics, as 
described in 4th edition, should not be used as a substitute for 
Breakfall (although I do allow it as a complimentary skill) 
 
 
== 
=========================================================== 
        John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
=========================================================== 
#  Keeper of the Hero Mailing List. Got a question about  # 
#  the list? Scope out http://www.sysabend.org/champions. # 
#              New feature: Cardboard Heroes.             # 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:06:36 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Mike Christodoulou writes: 
 
> That's correct.  Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably 
> valid methods of DFC.  However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort 
> to a Movement power, 
 
Leaping is a form of movement.  If you can leap, you can Superleap -- it is 
the same form of movement.  Superleap is a Movement Power. 
 
You have just encountered a specific exception. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRpXJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHCaAQAkVBeavpG6lBKbOrI/atFSJRwq4K5I5WZ 
DYVhS54U9mhNcEa+nHTJ5Vzom19iU+3chuNrHubz5Mc50hB7aZOa5Z55FSpQk7G5 
DLe209RfTp161YlapWuIRMItv5kV8cHBd02HHLhIo1bZBH8a38gwj+/rarzhV5Lp 
Hed/O3BKCsc= 
=OX4h 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:08:15 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David Stallard writes: 
 
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but 
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like 
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take 
> advantage of it once they have it. 
 
A big use of Acrobatics is not being used at all.  Whenever you (the GM) 
call for a DEX roll due to unsure footing, the character with Acrobatics 
does not even have to roll; he automatically keeps his footing. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRpvp6VRH7BJMxHAQFVHwQAxcDdu1+Crh04jVKiu62BveRDa0l1S6jR 
UcwDKE6vIZ51V+wQ+6N69dWJU4f8CKHqIbHk5Br0gR+Xn4+n/aRt+CbgzBAJmTPQ 
+xC5luxIQgVBP0thzROiyAC/l4lDgi70oaS6S5iYrGl1xM7gOuDr3soAnTMnTacf 
49lrTMSjJtk= 
=rovw 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Anime Hero 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:15:20 -0400 
Lines: 36 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David Stallard writes: 
 
> A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this 
> was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style. 
 
No, it is not a style, it is a medium.  "Anime Hero" would be like "Movie 
and TV Hero" except for the fact that the cast is animated.  In other 
words, a complete sourcebook would be about the size of small encyclopaedia 
or three. 
 
[...] 
 
> This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system to permit 
> people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese animation) style 
> games. [...] 
 
This sounds like it could be something similar to "Teenagers From 
Outterspace", itself an "anime rpg" of sorts (or of a sort, anyway). 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXRrZ56VRH7BJMxHAQF9WwQAmpbupB3qRy2grB8BWZwv4SABP2lI8XMh 
6N4x78C5OI3NBsDMs1TXMialiP76kqB3KltD6fbBlmM67tSlF8aK+U9c6RuPC+rs 
1dsH1lGN334/vO+7aDvhLTfsfXyUHAY4lEzTaCHn2t7QVUXh+hmRruclOz7ohLqA 
pQ8IIlm2qps= 
=4vln 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www08.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www08.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.28 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:51:54 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
<snip> 
>  
> I did not say ignore Strength Minimum.  I said ignore it in the context of 
> the Limitation. 
>  
 
OK, I'll ignore it entirely. 
 
If I have a one-handed weapon, I can use it one-handed. If I have a one and a half handed weapon, I can use it one handed or two. 
 
So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of which I am aware. 
 
What, exactly, is the Limitation? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www02.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www02.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.22 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:57:40 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net> 
>  
>  
> >Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be 
> >fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of 
> >Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range 
> >modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how 
> >do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you 
> >give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are 
> >the modifiers? 
>  
> The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range.  No modifiers, I 
> would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM.  All of  
> this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other 
> than sight. 
 
 
Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
 
So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:37:33 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:52 PM 6/2/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote: 
>> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the 
>> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh?  As with many aspects of 
>> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when 
>> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the 
>> comics.  There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a 
>> simple manuever and fail miserably. 
> 
>It's much to harsh if you actually want the plays to use the skill. 
>Separate "failure" from "catestrophic failure" in your mind.  If a PC 
>tries something creative in combat using acrobatics, success should 
>give him some small OCV or DCV bonus; for a failure, depending on what 
>was attempted, some OCV/DCV mods might be appropriate, or might not, 
>judge based on the attempted action; catestrophic failure (like 
>rolling an 18) might actually drop him on his face, lose his action, 
>scrag his DCV, etc, etc, etc. 
 
   In some situations such as backflips and big jumps, it might do well to 
have the character fall.  He may then try a Breakfall Roll; if he makes it, 
he stands right back up again with just a minor penalty (like a lost phase, 
or -1 to OCV and DCV), but if he fails he stays down at the full penalty 
for being prone until he gets back up again. 
   (This thought is based on observations watching the figure skaters, 
speed skaters, snoboarders, and downhill skiers at the Winter Olypic Games 
this year.) 
 
>> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other 
>> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official), 
>> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all?  Why not just 
>> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain 
>> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have Breakfall 
>> without having Acrobatics? 
> 
>Actually, you've more or less described 3rd edition Acrobatics.  The 
>Breakfall component was separated out for 4th edition as part of the 
>attempt to "normalize" the skills (make all skills have the same cost 
>and similar level of potential functionality).  Acrobatics, as 
>described in 4th edition, should not be used as a substitute for 
>Breakfall (although I do allow it as a complimentary skill) 
 
   There are, I suspect, some cases where Breakfall is used where what 
should be used is Acrobatics.  For example, the description of Dive For 
Cover in the HSR (page 155) says that a DEX Roll at -1/1" to succeed; while 
some would use Breakfall for the character to land safely, I'd use 
Acrobatics, since the character is in control of the "takeoff" (so to speak). 
   (Maybe Hero5 needs to borrow the Athletics Skill from Fuzion....) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:44:09 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:50 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>Just trying to cover all the bases.  "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting 
>>straight up 5". 
> 
>No ... I don't think it can.  Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
>You cannot abort to a teleport.  
> 
>You can dive for cover straight up by jumping to whatever height 
>your strength will support.  (I dunno about Superleap.  Again, that 
>would be turning on a power -- something you can't do on an abort.) 
>And if you're jumping, there should be no need for a breakfall or 
>acrobatics roll.  You would land on your feet (at the end of your  
>phase) just as you would in a normal jump. 
 
   Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use 
Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're 
going.  That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played 
with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow 
any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover. 
   (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to 
get where you're landing in a single Phase.  "I Dive For Cover!"  "Where 
to?"  "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..."  OK, 
we *can* use some common sense here....) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:47:07 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that 
> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK. 
 
Umm... try Stretching. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXSA6Z6VRH7BJMxHAQGYLAQAu1xNcfxzrfeKy41fG1Pv8lc4c6p0q588 
XCn/eOolvboZ7psR/CXCprcYhDE4kmEufERJSF1/njp7yCMvt8vIylCGOJ27ivqS 
pWMp+zdgKkIn6pavjEZWYswpzOI8Dhv74prtaKqKuqDbRhwntzYOB4i+vIwH7ZCU 
Oettg9xsd6M= 
=gAJW 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail0.tor.acc.ca from dflacks@ican.net server @mail0.tor.acc.ca ip 204.92.54.110 
Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
To: "Heroes Mailling List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Anime Hero 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:48:00 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
> Subject: Anime Hero 
> Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 4:38 PM 
>  
> A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this 
> was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style.  Apparantly 
> there's a new game out which sounds similar to the "Anime Hero" idea.  
> Here's an excerpt from the Crossroads Gazette, an RPG newsletter for the 
> CompuServe RPG forum, describing this new game: 
> ----------------------------------------- 
> Big Eyes Small Mouth 
> Anime RPG System 
> Written by Mark C. Mackinnon 
>  
> This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system 
> to permit people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese 
> animation) style games. It uses a minimalistic rules system 
> which works great for this style. The book contains a lot of 
> artwork, about half of which is fair, and the other half is 
> great. The book itself has a lot of interesting insight into 
> the reasoning behind the rules, about role-playing anime 
> games, and about various other aspects of the genre and such. 
> The only thing missing, imo, is a sample adventure or three, 
> although there are quite a lot of ideas. 
 
I have a copy of BESM and have played in a few tournement games.  It is a 
fun system but it is not Anime Hero.  The cournerstone of BESM is it's 
minimalistic rules system.  A large amount depends on player and GM 
knowledge of Anime and agreement on what is allowed in the game. 
 
For example I created a psionic character.  He had level four psionics.  In 
the course of the evening's games the psionics was used to ego blast a 
security guard, read his mind, and plant post-hypnotic suggestions via mind 
control.  Levitate the entire party.  Tose around some robots.  Rip the 
head of one robot and use it like a bowling ball against the oncomming 
cyber dogs.  Other attempted actions included illusions and melting metal 
via Pyrokinesis was concidered.  All this fall under the one power. 
 
Many of the powers are similarly broad.  The exact limits of what a power 
is are not detailed, and depend on the character conception as the player 
and GM understand it. 
 
A character with Cybernetic body could be a six million dollar man type, or 
a robocop type with armor etc., or a Data type with full life support.  If 
your character concept is an android like Data you would get the life 
support for free. 
 
There is also NO skills.  All skills beyond powers and combat are based on 
the three statistics. 
 
There is a set of ANIME style disadavatages available.  Roll Playing these 
disadvantages is great fun. 
 
This game was a lot of fun to play, and character creation is fast.  But, 
as the HSR vs. Fuzion debates show (boo, hiss, oh no not again), a lot of 
die hard Hero players seem to really like the detailed character creation 
aspect of Hero.  This is the antithesis of BESM character creation. 
 
IMHO Running Anime hero would mean the GM and players deciding on an Anime 
style for the game and designing the characters and stories to match.  A 
list of Anime type disadvantes could be inspired by BESM and other Anime 
like RPGs. 
 
Taking the Bubble Gum Crissis Fuzion RPG as an example.  Most of the book 
deals  with the background and style. It could be defined in hero as a set 
of campaign rules like; All powers must have technological origins.  
Teleportation is not allowed, etc.   
 
Kind of like designing a custom magic system in fantasy hero.  I kind of 
like that analogy.  A set of generic system design sheets could be used to 
define the limits of any Hero campaign.  I am going to go check out my old 
FH book.  Maybe these will help me clerify the Sci-fi universe I am 
currently tring to develop. 
 
 
Daniel Flacks   dflacks@ican.net 
 
Give me ambiguity or give me something else 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:49:40 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
 
> So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
 
Well, if he could make a targeting sense roll, and be able to hit the 
target 10 miles away at normal OCV -- that is, with no range modifiers -- 
why is it that if he fails said targeting sense roll he is suddenly hit 
with range modifier penalties?  Whether or not he makes the sense roll has 
no bearing on his range modifiers or lack thereof.  It *ONLY* affects his 
OCV. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXSBg56VRH7BJMxHAQHxpAP/X1lru0wKrgcE0R9Gh11TOr52SQwrKtia 
BSxna8x8minSITTjpiJuilb+1Bk1Jv54kTe6Dl8XAMCLjB30hIMH6zhhPV2NvLx5 
Icisqw0El9BpVCbe96B7y0ixKIQb3coP9tRZbCvKpjF7ZQ+6RENmBJ4epD37OAhk 
1yklL0MO50I= 
=EKPs 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:53:55 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of 
> which I am aware. 
 
> What, exactly, is the Limitation? 
 
If you wield the weapon with two hands, you cannot use a shield.  That 
means your DCV is lower than if you wielded the weapon with one hand. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXSCg56VRH7BJMxHAQGlHwQAnon5xPgbSDdo1KsDMnM0zz2uZE34dcPX 
A+pCXqEvgWlewnwpolVa5i4Ft1U9kfqsXCwQunlcTwrff2VbhBb+NJ7Ly2Dhfz+u 
Mjd8o6DCUL7LpWiiTuqYHNg4NVNJcdwpyIE4qUoPl8geqQUJL9XDSWCARbxgEuU/ 
faUkWCY7lVc= 
=85vC 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:04:01 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:47 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that 
>> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK. 
> 
>Umm... try Stretching. 
 
   I *was* Stretching.  That's why I decided I like it!  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
X-SMTP: helo stimpy.ir.miami.edu from aregalad@miami.edu server @stimpy.ir.miami.edu ip 129.171.32.32 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:27:10 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
>  
> So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
 
Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the 
NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system 
that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a 
product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate 
the advantage altogether. 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com ip 206.214.98.9 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:50:57 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>    Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use 
> Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're 
> going.  That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played 
> with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow 
> any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover. 
>    (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to 
> get where you're landing in a single Phase.  "I Dive For Cover!"  "Where 
> to?"  "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..."  OK, 
> we *can* use some common sense here....) 
 
Actually it's says you can not dive more than half your maximum movement.  Of 
course it doesn't mention non-combat, phases or anything. 
 
My group plays it this way: 
 
Use any movement power.  -1/1" for normal movement, Dex roll for T-Port 
If it's an abort, you decide how far you want to try before rolling.  If 
you have a delay, roll first and see how far you go.  We also allow you 
to make multiple dives at -2 after the first. (Just like blocking)  You can 
continue to do this until you're out of movement. 
 
We also assume that you're up when you reach your target hex. 
 
We seem rather lenient, but it's worked for us.  Probably has something to do 
with few teleporters and lots of explosions. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo darius.concentric.net from cypriot@concentric.net server @darius.concentric.net ip 207.155.184.79 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:06:29 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>   Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use 
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're 
>going.  That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played 
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow 
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover. 
 
 
Well, if you're talking about House Rules here, then of course, anything 
goes. 
 
However, the Good Book says: 
1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of  
   explosions and area effect attacks. 
2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive  
   Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character 
   can't normally abort to a movement action. 
 
Here are my observations: 
1. If you are going to ABORT to Dive for Cover, then you must follow 
   the Abort rules.  Arguably, the "no movement" clause could prohibit 
   this maneuver, but we don't play it that way, and I don't think  
   anyone else does. 
2. If you are just going to Dive for Cover as your regular action,  
   then you can use any movement power your heart desires.  But what's 
   the point?  If you have a whole action to use, then just use it to 
   get the hell out of the way of the attack.  Hence, I will assume, 
   for the sake of this discussion that we are talking about ABORTING 
   to Dive for Cover. 
3. Since you can't "normally" use a movement action in an abort, then 
   logically, you can't teleport 5" straight up (to link this tirade 
   to a previous post).  I'm not exactly sure what they meant by  
   "normally", which obviously leads to some leeway. 
4. I wouldn't apply the "no movement" ban to Dive for Cover, since 
   by its very nature, Dive for Cover is a movement.  In particular, 
   it's a jump, which is covered under the strength rules.  Depending 
   upon special effect, I could easily be talked into allowing Super 
   Leap.  But since there  does seem to be a prohibition against the  
   movement, I wouldn't allow other powers, such as Running, Teleport, 
   Tunneling, or Flight. 
5. Interestingly enough, the Dive for Cover rules say nothing about 
   the character winding up prone.  I think that everybody has just 
   interpreted it that way.  This lends support for the idea mentioned 
   in another thread that a character with Acrobatics doesn't even have 
   to roll the dice ... he just ends up on his feet. 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo darius.concentric.net from cypriot@concentric.net server @darius.concentric.net ip 207.155.184.79 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:13:16 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>> The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range.  No modifiers, I 
>> would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM.  All of  
>> this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other 
>> than sight. 
> 
> 
>Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
>miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
>where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
> 
 
What?  Are you telling me that some Champions rules aren't realistic?! 
 
Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use 
of NRM.  A man-sized target at 10 miles?  Sure -- the rules allow 
it.  But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how 
your character can pull something like that off. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:14:21 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:24 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>> Clinging, Ranged.  You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the 
>> nearby building walls and running along them. 
> 
>Um, no.  The power is "Swinging". 
 
Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air.  If you get 
grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall you were 
clinging to. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:28:57 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
At 11:50 PM 6/2/1998 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to 
>> get where you're landing in a single Phase.  "I Dive For Cover!"  "Where 
>> to?"  "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..."  OK, 
>> we *can* use some common sense here....) 
> 
>Actually it's says you can not dive more than half your maximum movement.  Of 
>course it doesn't mention non-combat, phases or anything. 
 
   You're quite right, Mark.  Last sentence of the first paragraph.  (Boy, 
does that spoil that joke!) 
   At the same time, that sentence only says, "A character can only Dive 
for Cover up to have his maximum movement."  It does not say what *kind* of 
movement, and I'd tend to think that any sort of movement would be allowed 
(it both "feels" logical and is how it tends to work in fiction, at least 
that I've seen). 
 
>My group plays it this way: 
> 
>Use any movement power.  -1/1" for normal movement, Dex roll for T-Port 
>If it's an abort, you decide how far you want to try before rolling.  If 
>you have a delay, roll first and see how far you go.  We also allow you 
>to make multiple dives at -2 after the first. (Just like blocking)  You can 
>continue to do this until you're out of movement. 
 
   Seems reasonable to me. 
 
>We also assume that you're up when you reach your target hex. 
 
   Nah, from the description, I'd say the character is on his feet in the 
target hex for purposes of anyone else's actions. 
 
>We seem rather lenient, but it's worked for us.  Probably has something to do 
>with few teleporters and lots of explosions. 
 
   That could do it.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:34:14 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:25 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules.  If there have ever been 
>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I 
>don't know where it is.  It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in 
>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going 
>to hit the wall.  But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be 
>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event 
>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast). 
 
When apprpriate to the situation, I've used 8- as the chance to hit someone 
else when you miss.  I apply along the entire line of the attack if there 
are people in the way and the attack is gross (big) enough.  Usually when 
someone (i.e. big enough) is knocked back through a hex someone else 
occupies.  I make it an 8- to hit a man sized target in the hex. 
 
It's not perfect (and I had a player who wanted skill levels in knockback 
pinball) but when used sparingly, it can make for a funny moment. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:36:10 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:47 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
>>    Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that 
>> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK. 
> 
>Umm... try Stretching. 
 
So with stretching I can stand 100 Hexes in the air and not occupy the 
hexes below me?  I'm holding on to the World Trade Center.  I'm not 
standing on the ground. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:39:42 -0400 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:44 PM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use 
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're 
>going.  That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played 
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow 
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover. 
>   (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to 
>get where you're landing in a single Phase.  "I Dive For Cover!"  "Where 
>to?"  "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..."  OK, 
>we *can* use some common sense here....) 
 
Actually, the book says "The character can only Dive for Cover up to half 
of his maximum movement." (BBB p.155) Does sound like a movement power is 
involved, though, doesn't it? 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:42:24 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
People talking about hitting man-sized targets at a distance of 10 miles 
appear to be overlooking the ultimate range modifier:  the curvature of the 
Earth.  In most cases, a target that small is going to vanish beyond the 
horizon and no amount of telescopic vision (or simiar SFX for cancelling 
range modifiers) is going to allow you to see it. 
 
If you or the target are sufficiently tall or high up to bypass the 
horizon, that's a different story of course.  Somewhere around here I have 
an easy method for figuring the distance to the apparent horizon, given the 
height of the viewer above the surrounding terrain.  Useful for things like 
determing how close you have to sail to that island before the guy in the 
crow's nest shouts "Land ho!" 
 
I could look around for this and post it, but no doubt a few people here 
already know how to do the calculation.  Anyone? 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:44:06 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
[big snip] 
>   Tunneling, or Flight. 
[smalled snip] 
 
TUNNELING FOR COVER!!!  
 
(Okay, so I laughed. :-) 
 
I've got to make a character with tunnelling now. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:44:23 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:03 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>At 03:22 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>Mike Christodoulou writes: 
>>> No ... I don't think it can.  Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
>>> You cannot abort to a teleport. 
>> 
>>Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move.  Nowhere in the 
>>descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of 
>>movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of 
>>effect". 
> 
>That's correct.  Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably 
>valid methods of DFC.  However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort 
>to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc.   (REF: Abort 
>rules.) 
 
The same book says "The character can only Dive for Cover up to half of his 
maximum movement."  Sounds like a movement power is involved.  (REF: Dive 
for Cover rules.)  So which movement power's maximum? 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www09.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www09.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.29 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:49:37 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of 
> > which I am aware. 
>  
> > What, exactly, is the Limitation? 
>  
> If you wield the weapon with two hands, you cannot use a shield.  That 
> means your DCV is lower than if you wielded the weapon with one hand. 
 
That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed? 
 
Take two men. Both have weapons that are identical, save that one is a 1 1/2 hand weapon, and the other is a 1 hand weapon. Now, assume that both men _always_ use their weapons one handed. They both get absolutely identical use out of their weapons. However, the man who has a 1 1/2 hand weapon adds an option he never uses (because he likes his shield), and for that added, never used option gets a -1/4 Limitation. 
 
I'm sorry, but that "Limitation" doesn't limit the character. In no way does it prevent him from using the weapon _exactly_ like a one-handed weapon. It is not worth a Limitation, no matter how disadvantageous the additional option is. This is the same as saying, "I have a normal 10d6 EB, but I can also use my EB 0-Range, at x10 END, so I get a Limitation, right?" So long as the power w/o the Limitation does not gain _anything_ by not having the Limitation, it is not a Limitation. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:50:46 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of  
>   explosions and area effect attacks. 
>2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive  
>   Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character 
>   can't normally abort to a movement action. 
 
So, you are saying that Spider Man cannot see Hobgoblin's Pumpkin bomb 
being thrown and react by twip-ing out a swing line and swinging away just 
before the bomb goes off unless he has a held action? 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www09.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www09.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.29 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:58:45 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
>  
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
>  
> Well, if he could make a targeting sense roll, and be able to hit the 
> target 10 miles away at normal OCV -- that is, with no range modifiers -- 
> why is it that if he fails said targeting sense roll he is suddenly hit 
> with range modifier penalties?  Whether or not he makes the sense roll has 
> no bearing on his range modifiers or lack thereof.  It *ONLY* affects his 
> OCV. 
 
So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000 miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target? Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in relation to him first? If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to the power-user when the hex is farther away? Does AK of the target's location, combined with up to the second information as to where he is standing, "John, I'm so glad I got hold of you in New York. There is a dangerous man sitting in your easy chair in Los Angeles. Would you please shoot him?" This would give the man in New York a better than 60% chance of hitting the man in Los Angeles, shooting blind. if he takes no penalties in either determining the target hex's location in relation to himself or in the form of Range Modifiers. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo orange.smtp.net from scm@mactyre.net server @orange.asatte.com ip 208.135.27.3 
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:00:53 -0700 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:44 PM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use 
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're 
>going.  That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played 
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow 
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover. 
>   (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to 
>get where you're landing in a single Phase.  "I Dive For Cover!"  "Where 
>to?"  "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..."  OK, 
>we *can* use some common sense here....) 
 
We've always approached things from the perspective that if the SFX made 
sense, it was good to go.  We've allowed teleport to be used for 
dive-for-cover in some games, but not others.  (I think I was the one who 
allowed it; I'm a big pushover when it comes to the "can I do X?" 
questions).  =)  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
http://www.mactyre.net 
 
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on 
a level with the wise.   
-- Edgar Pangborn 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:03:29 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Claws (was How Complicated is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
grant wrote: 
 
>>>For example: 
>>>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal 
>>>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters 
>>like 
>>>dragons or something.  You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as 
>>many 
>>>DCs as you wish. 
>> 
 
Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>>This is actually how most of my own components currently look.  I've been 
>>assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented.  I suppose it is 
>>really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how 
>>complicated the table is.  The one thing you do lose with a table is the 
>>host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may 
>>or may not be a problem. 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Basically, a reasonable range of DCs should be included. 
>   Take the aforementioned Shoulder Cannon II example from TUSV.  There are 
>actually four classes of Shoulder Cannon.  SC-I does 3d6, SC-II does 4d6, 
>SC-III does 5d6, and SC-IV does 6d6.  All of them are otherwise built 
>identically. 
 
These are equipment, presumably from a lengthy equipment list for your 
campaign and like the weapons list found in Fastasy Hero, the Babylon 5 
weapon designs that have popped up on this list, or a list of arcane 
talismans for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign.  Not very much at all like 
a list of animal claws, teeth, or spikes-on-their-tails. 
 
Understood in this list list of equipment are the campaign limits for 
attacks and defenses, the special effects for campaign weapons and defenses, 
and the tone for the campaign milieu.  This list of Shoulder Cannons is, 
IMHO, campaign specific.  It's value outside your campaign is that I may 
steal from it wholesale or modify it for use in my own, similar campaign. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:03:31 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
grant wrote: 
 
>>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as 
>>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific 
>>campaigns.  I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books. 
>>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign? 
 
 
 
Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Nah, only hundreds.  :-)  While this would be nice, someone still has to do 
>the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy 
>them.  Post your campaign to a web site.  It would be more effective.  And 
>it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to. 
>("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.) 
 
 
This seems like a great idea to me, especially if people had 
well-publicized, well-put-together, and fairly standard sites. 
 
 
The lists of stuff idea only has as much value to me as what I can 
relatively easily crib outright or simply modify to fit my own campaign.  A 
bunch more "official HERO Universe" stuff eliminates other, 
not-for-use-with-the-HERO-Universe stuff that I could steal. 
 
In short, let the HERO Universe stuff go.  Give me easy access to a zillion 
different campaigns' elements because that gives me more to steal. 
 
Who's with me?  (Shoplifters of the world unite. . . ) 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:03:32 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>I prefer terse writing, also.  (And if that surprises you based on by posts 
>to the list--remember I said I prefer it, not that I'm good at it off the 
>cuff.)  Preferring terse is why I like A better than B--on an actual 
>creature listing. 
> 
>A:  Claw, DC 3, rdcd pen. 
>B:  Claw.  HKA 1d6 (15 base), rdcd pen -1/4, 15 Active, 12 Real. 
 
 
Actually, for character sheets I personally prefer something even more 
verbose than "B."  I've looked at write-ups of published characters and 
often struggled to figure out what a particular power is supposed to *be*: 
is that a fireball, arcane energies, what exactly is supposed to be going on 
there? 
 
 
My own characters and those of many of my players list a name for the power 
(presumably one that describes what the power looks like, such as "Superfast 
Combat Sprint") followed by the description of how the power has been built 
("10-inch Stretching, No Non-combat stretch, only to places he can run"). 
Both of these are essential to the character.  The first lets the player and 
anybody else know what the Power is, the second lets us all know how it works. 
 
I'd emphasize the first description because I can quickly grasp what's 
happening: the player says, "I'll run over and grab his gun using my 
Superfast Combat Sprint."  The second lets me know what the mechanics are. 
 
As another example, I tried to get my wife involved in our game.  The 
character sheet has her completely confused. 
 
"I want to shoot that agent," she says. 
"So shoot him," I say. 
"With what?" 
I point. 
"What's a 12D6 EB?" 
"Those are your eye-beams." 
"Oh." 
 
So let's not get rid of one or the other.  I like them both. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www06.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www06.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.26 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:06:49 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
> From: aregalad@miami.edu 
>  
>  
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
> >  
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
>  
> Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the 
> NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system 
> that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a 
> product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate 
> the advantage altogether. 
 
If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You 
have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great 
distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black 
who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM. 
If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon 
to strike a particular location he cannot sense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-2.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @dub-img-2.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.132 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:14:56 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Anime Hero 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id WAA22556 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
> IMHO Running Anime hero would mean the GM and players deciding on an 
Anime 
> style for the game and designing the characters and stories to match.  A 
> list of Anime type disadvantes could be inspired by BESM and other Anime 
> like RPGs. 
 
For what it's worth, there is a recurring event at GenCon called Anime 
Hero, basically a heroic level game with a few easily explained house 
rules. I only played in it once (the first year, I believe), but it was 
well done, and the GM had a significant amount of home-made anime-style 
artwork to show at crucial points. All in all, I thought it captured the 
feel of the genre well. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-8.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @dub-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.138 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:15:00 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Acrobatics 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id WAA22568 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have 
Breakfall 
> without having Acrobatics? 
 
I snipped the rest of this post because I think others have answered it 
thoroughly and well. As to this question, I have a character who has 
Breakfall but not Acrobatics -- the character's main mode of transportation 
is a motorcycle, and he has the Psych Lim: Reckless. I figured he's had 
plenty of opportunity to learn how to take a spill, although the flips and 
tumbles of Acrobatics doesn't fit his conception. 
 
Another example that comes to mind is from when I took Aikido lessons. One 
of the first things they taught us was rudimentary Breakfall, and I suspect 
this is true for many, if not most, martial arts as well. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out5.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out5.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.245 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:16:02 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Sad news. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 7 
 
Was just checking out the Herogame web age and saw they had posted a bit of sad  
news.   
 
For those of you haven't heard, Mark Williams passed away on May 27, 1998 after  
complications connected with  cancer surgery. 
 
If you're new to the Champions scene you may not remember Mark Williams.  He was  
the original illustrator for the Champions game book, and many of his illustrations can  
still be found in the 4th edition BBB. 
 
For more information at Mark WIlliams life (and unfortunate death) you might want to  
check out the full article over at www.herogames.com. 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-6.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.136 
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:32:29 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id CAA02956 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 30 
 
> Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use 
> of NRM.  A man-sized target at 10 miles?  Sure -- the rules allow 
> it.  But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how 
> your character can pull something like that off. 
 
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with 
a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering 
that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!), and 
he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and 
enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him! 
 
If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because 
he has no idea where to shoot. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:56:46 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 31 
 
At 10:15 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have 
>Breakfall 
>> without having Acrobatics? 
> 
>I snipped the rest of this post because I think others have answered it 
>thoroughly and well. As to this question, I have a character who has 
>Breakfall but not Acrobatics -- the character's main mode of transportation 
>is a motorcycle, and he has the Psych Lim: Reckless. I figured he's had 
>plenty of opportunity to learn how to take a spill, although the flips and 
>tumbles of Acrobatics doesn't fit his conception. 
> 
>Another example that comes to mind is from when I took Aikido lessons. One 
>of the first things they taught us was rudimentary Breakfall, and I suspect 
>this is true for many, if not most, martial arts as well. 
 
   Speaking for myself, this particular part of the post slipped right by; 
my mind treated the question as buried under a bunch of other stuff. 
   As to your points of the question, another situation that would give at 
least Familiarity with Breakfall would be klutziness.  Someone who trips 
over things and falls down a lot soon learns how to do it without getting 
hurt.  (I'm speaking from personal experience here.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:01:01 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
At 09:44 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>[big snip] 
>>   Tunneling, or Flight. 
>[smalled snip] 
> 
>TUNNELING FOR COVER!!!  
> 
>(Okay, so I laughed. :-) 
 
   So did I -- though the idea does have merit (and precedent).... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:10:49 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: filkhero@usa.net 
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> From: Ross Rannells 
> > 
> > Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > 
> >   So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way.  The 
> > way it appears to 
> > me is that the location of the target needs to be known.  Whether the location 
> > is thruough 
> > seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan).  Either 
> > way once the 
> > location is known, other mental powers may be used. 
> 
> That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that 
> interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall would be "line 
> of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far. 
> 
 
I believe it to be true, so we are at an impass.  Can we agree to disagree? 
 
> >Under your interpretation, 
> > where line of 
> > sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight.  Then live 
> > video feeds would 
> > not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their 
> > powers.  Where as 
> > in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or 
> > line of sight 
> > will is suffiecient for this.  Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as 
> > ruled by the GM) 
> > would allow for the attack.  The reason I like this interpetation is that it 
> > opens up a whole 
> > new set of complications for the heros to deal with. 
> 
> It also gives mentalists a massive increase in power, heavily unbalancing a game. People 
> with Desolidification can attack while untouchable, but pay a +2 Advantage on every power 
> used under these circumstances, need to buy special weaknesses to their invulnerability, 
> are vulnerable to Powers with Affects Desolidification, and have to pay END. A mentalist 
> attacking people on TV gets all of these benefits without any of these limitations, and 
> gets it for free. Mentalists who want abilities like this have to pay for them with Mind 
> Scan now, which has it's own problems, but this gives it away for free. 
> 
 
It's only unbalancing if the GM allows it be.  Once again, all I've said is the possiblity 
exists to use the powers.  Start he mentalist out at a zero ecv for firing blind then knock 
off three to five more for their familiarity with the area and your looking at a 3 to 5 to hit 
a normal, roughlt 1 chance in 21.  If your crative with the negitives you should be able to 
get it down to 1 in 216 (ie a 3) fairly easily.  Which is roughly the chance of disabling a 
tank with small arms fire (0.5% was the estimate I read). 
 
> You want this ability? Fine. Buy Clairvoyance, IPE, only to see locations he can already 
> see on TV (-2), only for targeting mental powers (-1), with a range to cover the Earth. 
> This should cost about 200 Active points and 50 Real Points, which is about what such a 
> potent power would be worth. Keep in mind that other limitations such as "Needs in depth 
> knowledge of location of target, either by KS: of target's location or careful 
> measurement" would bring it down more. Alternatives include a similarly limited Mind Scan, 
> or a bonus to Mind Scan if it is already purchased. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:21:07 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 12:04 PM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > 
> >>    About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say 
> >> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having 
> >> ever said it on this List: 
> >>    Your way of constructing it is wrong.  Absolutely, totally wrong. 
> >>    Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the 
> >> viewer and the target.  This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.* 
> > 
> >My mistake.  I wasn't clear enough here.  The telescopi vision I was 
> refering to 
> >is that of the zoom lense on the camera.  The camera itself is a point of 
> >Clairasentience that has telescopic vision.  Anything in front of the camera 
> >lence is blocked.  After looking back over my posts, I realize I never 
> maid this 
> >clear.  I apologize for my inaccuracy. 
> 
>    Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target 
> an attack.  As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to 
> gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind" 
> attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms). 
>    (Apology accepted.)  :-] 
> 
> >>   Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would 
> >> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting.  This is what the 
> >> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide.  Using a 
> >> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect 
> >> for this.  But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into 
> >> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it. 
> > 
> >The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels.  That's what a 
> HUD 
> >does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information 
> about 
> >the target you are shooting at.  The base system (ie no additional skill 
> levels) 
> >is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece.  The computer then adds 
> details and 
> >information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels.  The 
> >weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just 
> >that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced. 
> 
>    No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance. 
 
I never said it was. 
 
>  The TV system itself (actually 
> the camera) is Clairvoyance. 
 
I spent a lot of time tinking about this on airplanes and a hotel room.  I think 
it is the system both the monitor and camera that make up the Clairvoyance power. 
The problem I keep running into is that radar and sonar guided weapons work on the 
same principle.  So why is sight treated differently? 
 
> The crosshairs are the system which turns the 
> Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense.  Otherwise the gunner is just 
> extrapolating information into educated guesswork. 
 
A reasonable explanation that I would accept if it were not for the problem with 
Radar and Sonar. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:38:08 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Firelynx16@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
 
 
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
 
> They are separate things.  To attack, mentalists must be able to see their 
> targets.  Mind Scan supersedes this requirement.  When MS is established, it 
> becomes a Targeting Sense. 
> 
> 'Lynx 
 
  I see then as two parts of the same thing (Parsimony/Occums Razor).  So I guess 
we will have to agree to disagree. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.2.64 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:53:53 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> - 
> The weekend?  This thing has been going on for two *weeks*. :) 
> 
 
Yeah but I managed to ignore it until now. 
 
BTW would the limited flight require a "Climing" Skill. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:38 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Pat10355@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
 
 
Pat10355@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Hi, 
> 
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military 
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other 
> gear. 
> 
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams 
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at 
> all? 
> 
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information 
> on this, I'd really appreciate it. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Patrick Sweeney 
 
  Military desinations start out as a numbering system for bidding on 
contracts.  The branch holding the bid selects a letter to signify the item 
(I've never heard how M go selected for rifles and tanks) being bid on.  Each 
bidder is then assigned a number.  The starting number is usually the first 
number after the last number used in the previous bidding for the same item. 
The ATF planes were assigned F-22 and F-23 since F-21 was the last figher bid 
the USAF had recieved (the F-21 lost to the F-20).  The numbering scheme for 
fighters gets even more complicated since the loser of the bid will usually 
modify the loosing plane for carrier use and then try to sell the plane to the 
Navy.  When this happens a new number is assigned to what basically is the same 
plane.  What makes it even more comfusing is that the military can  restart 
numbering whenever they want to. Like the move from the M-60 to the M-1 tanks 
and the B-1 Bomber.  The reason the B1 and B2 follow each other in sequence is 
that there was no competitive bidding on those projects.  The letters after the 
numbers (like the A1 on the M1 and the A through E on the F15) are sequence 
designations, usually denoting modifications and or upgrades from the basic 
models. 
 
In short you could give any numeric assignment you want to your weapons and have 
it fit, since the designations are are basically random assignments (based on 
when the bid arrived at the Pentagon) by men with lots of stars on their 
shoulders. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:21:09 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
CC: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
> I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread, 
> which reminded me of some questions I have about its use. 
> 
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but 
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like 
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take 
> advantage of it once they have it. 
> 
> * If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples? 
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?  What 
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?  One common maneuver 
> I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from 
> behind for a bonus.  Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a 
> villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so 
> you get a bonus.  That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had 
> one player who was inventive with Acrobatics. 
> 
 
In my games Acrobatics is most often used as the excuse for bying thing based 
on skill. I've OK'ed DCV, Superleap and Running based on Acrobatics.  Just 
don't firget to apply the negitves do to the active points that are being based 
on the skill.  The +2 DCV and 4" of running give a -2 on the acrobatics roll. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from dpawtows@access.digex.net server ql8n./ZPr9g26@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Anime Hero 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:27:14 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
>  
> fun system but it is not Anime Hero.  The cournerstone of BESM is it's 
> minimalistic rules system.  A large amount depends on player and GM 
 
  I've seen BESM a little myself, and it wasn't for an Anime game, the 
GM was using it for what he called "Call of Cthulu-ish".  Can't comment 
directly on the translation, as I've never played CoC.  It did a reasonable 
job of simulating the important bits of Baron Rudolph von Wolfenstein III, 
a 1000-point 'normal' used to beta-test the GURPS BlackOps book.  Not a 
great job, but then BlackOps characters are deliberably bizzare. :-) 
 
                                      Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
X-SMTP: helo stimpy.ir.miami.edu from aregalad@miami.edu server @stimpy.ir.miami.edu ip 129.171.32.32 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:32:46 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
To: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Cc: aregalad@miami.edu, Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
>   What we need to remember here is the the maximum range for most powers is 5 
> times there acive points. So a 50 point power has a range or 250 hexes or half 
> a kilometer.   The NRM may negate the effects of range modifiers bu it does 
> not extend the maximum range of the power.  For a 50 EB to hit a target 10 
> miles away, it would take three levels of extended range for the power to be 
> able to reach the target.  That along with the NRM make the 10D6 attack cost 
> 112 points. 
 
That too. :] 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:37:52 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: aregalad@miami.edu 
CC: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
 
 
aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
> > 
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
> 
> Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the 
> NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system 
> that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a 
> product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate 
> the advantage altogether. 
> 
> Dragonfly 
 
  What we need to remember here is the the maximum range for most powers is 5 
times there acive points. So a 50 point power has a range or 250 hexes or half 
a kilometer.   The NRM may negate the effects of range modifiers bu it does 
not extend the maximum range of the power.  For a 50 EB to hit a target 10 
miles away, it would take three levels of extended range for the power to be 
able to reach the target.  That along with the NRM make the 10D6 attack cost 
112 points. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
X-SMTP: helo stimpy.ir.miami.edu from aregalad@miami.edu server @stimpy.ir.miami.edu ip 129.171.32.32 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:40:12 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 23 
 
>  
> If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You 
> have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great 
> distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black 
> who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM. 
> If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon 
> to strike a particular location he cannot sense. 
 
Maybe the targeting system is defined as a computer built into a power 
suit that automatically targets opponents once the character enters into 
target. Although the battle suit still benifits from the character being 
able to direct the attack, the blinded character says "Nuts! I'm blinded! 
Computer, fire rockets at target number 3! God, I hope that hits!" 
 
OR, maybe the "guidance system" is an enchanted weapon. All I'm really 
saying is that it all depends on special effect, so I'm not sure that 
you can have a meaningful discussion aobut what "makes sense" without 
talking about a specific special effect. I could be wrong, but those are 
my $.02 for what they are worth. 
 
Dragonfly  
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:50:52 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: aregalad@miami.edu 
> > 
> > 
> > > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10 
> > > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you 
> > > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous. 
> > > 
> > > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense? 
> > 
> > Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the 
> > NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system 
> > that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a 
> > product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate 
> > the advantage altogether. 
> 
> If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You 
> have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great 
> distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black 
> who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM. 
> If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon 
> to strike a particular location he cannot sense. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of intellighence to 
guide it.  I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your language, have 
some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have knowledge of the 
area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its warhead.  If the computer 
has an ego or not may also come into play.  I've found that the best way to build such attacks is 
either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM.  With the automaton/vehicle you 
also are freed from that maximum range rule also. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:01:20 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 12:04 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Len Carpenter wrote: 
> >> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of 
> >> strength.  The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding 
> >> factor. 
> > 
> >On the mark.  Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed 
> >stabbing spear.   
>  
> Yes, but could Superman? (Or, to retain fantasy, could Hercules?) 
 
Yes.  They have sufficent STR to be able to move the weapon around. 
Still, even with Conan's 25 STR (which is what I gave him) a 20' pike 
would be too unwieldy to use effectively). 
  
> Personally, I'd prefer to see "2-handed" as a limitation reserved  
> solely for those weapons which require 2 hands by design (a bow),  
> rather than by practicality (a pollaxe); weapons which are two-handed 
> by reason of weight and balance seem to me better represented by  
> obscene STR minima, lowered if you use two hands. Of course, the  
> problem there is that the usual one/two hand difference (+/-5 STR -- 
> this principle is used in both STR minima and gripping STR in  
> different books, IIRC) is too small to create a weapon usable  
> two-handed by normals and not usable one-handed by Conan. 
 
I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very 
unrealistic and silly.  As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for 
a halberd is way to high.  I think the problem rises from the factor that 
'2-handed' is a -1/2 limitation, meaniung that 1 1/2 hands fits in at 
-1/4.  But, there isn't much of a disadvantage about using a 1 1/2 weapon 
two-handed.  Sure you can't use a shield, but that's why one wears armor. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:17:18 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 26 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Grant Enfield wrote: 
 
> As another example, I tried to get my wife involved in our game.  The 
> character sheet has her completely confused. 
>  
> "I want to shoot that agent," she says. 
> "So shoot him," I say. 
> "With what?" 
> I point. 
> "What's a 12D6 EB?" 
> "Those are your eye-beams." 
> "Oh." 
>  
> So let's not get rid of one or the other.  I like them both. 
 
Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this 
problem.  I've adapted it for all my character sheets now and posts to 
this list will iuse the same layout.  Each power group will gets a header 
(like Psychokinetic Powers), while each individual power gets a name as 
well (like Telekinetic Sheild).  There are also specific rules about 
grouping skills sets together (example: one Kazei 5 characters had Bounty 
Hunter Skills, Ex-police Skills and Background SKills listed on the 
character sheet).  The format works well in my opinion since it names each 
power and forces the designer to define the SFX of each poer rather than 
just write in 10d6 EB. 
 
Here is an example (from my Kazei 5 manuscript) of how this looks written 
out: 
 
Hiroko O'Hara (street samurai) 
 
Implanted Cyberware 
	Smartgun Link: +2 OCV and +1 Range Modifier, Uses an External 
		Cable (-1/2), Requires Smartlinked Weapon (-1/2), Poor Quality 
		Cybersystem (-1/2) (5) 
 
Damaged Nerve Endings 
	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Energy and Physical, Resistant,  
		Stun Only (-1/2), Only if Stun Damage Exceeds Hiroko's 
		CON (-1/2) (30)  
 
Equipment: 
	Colt Mark IV with Smartgun Adaptor: RKA: 1 1/2D6, +1 Stun, +1 OCV,  
		2 clips of 16 shots, STR Minimum, OAF (22) [2x16c] 
 
Now, notice that some limitations are not given values.  The idea is that 
anything one cvan look up in the BBB (such as OAF) wou don't give a lim 
value to.  All other game/character specific lims (like the Cybersystem 
lim) have the value listed. 
 
The character seehts when printed work well since each power header (like 
Equipment) is in bold as well as each power name.  My only beef is that 
the point value for each power is over on the right (is the (22) for the 
Colt Mark IV) making it hard to instantly assess the character's point 
value. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:22:13 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Sad news. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
> For those of you haven't heard, Mark Williams passed away on May 27, 
> 1998 after  
> complications connected with  cancer surgery. 
 
Although I never cared much for Mark's art (and even Bruce Harlick called 
him 'the famous hack') Mark's work does bring back many fond memeories. 
He's the guy responsible for Foxbat for starters.  The story has it that 
Mark was whipping up the cover to Enemies II and Bruce wanted to know who 
the guy was.  Mark said 'I dunno, but he looks cool' and Bruce thought *I 
need to write this guy up... quick!*  The rest is, as they say, history. 
 
And of course, who can forget the infamous 'curving eyebeams' of 
Holocaust, the guy from the cover of the orginal Champions rulebook? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:23:16 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote: 
 
>   Military desinations start out as a numbering system for bidding on 
> contracts.  The branch holding the bid selects a letter to signify the item 
> (I've never heard how M go selected for rifles and tanks) being bid on.  Each 
 
My guess is that M = military.  Much like GI = government issue. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:31:32 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can 
 
Careless error: my apologies.  I hope that no offense was taken. 
 
 find 
> that directly quotes your work has your full name on it.... 
 
There have been a couple of posts that have responded to my rejoinder to  
a comment about something I said, and which refer to the original  
material as "someone said," and I felt like poking fun. 
 
Obviously, I failed both my spelling and my humor skill rolls this time. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mh2.cts.com from rowland@cts.com server root@mh2.cts.com ip 205.163.24.68 
From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Sign off.. 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:08:12 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
Hate to do this, but I'm on too many lists.. My server's yelling at me for 
having too many messages... I need to sign off, and, of course, I've lost 
the list serv address.. Could someone help me out with it..? 
 
WGR 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:14:33 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 18 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> I think I misused "mechanic".  The point is that a Limitation should not 
> change how a power fundamentally works.  The Limitation in question does 
> that: it ties Flight speed with mass.  Yes, it makes that Flight less 
> Effective, but it does so in a way that it probably should not.  And it 
> does it in a rather sloppy fashion: how did the 1" Flight (2AP) = 5 
> Strength (5AP) formula come into being, and why the obvious dichotomy in 
> active points? 
 
In no particular order, and not covering everything that you seem to be  
confused about: 
 
1) You misquote the "formula:" 1" Flight(-1) (1 CP) = 1 STR (1 CP). 
 
2) An equivalence of 2" Movement = + 1 STR is given on HSR p. 142.  The  
more favorable ratio was based on comparison with the cost of Shrinking. 
 
3) As stated in the part of the post that you ignored, the Limitation  
does not rely on an equivalence between Flight and STR.  One can equally  
well use a minimum buy of flight to reduce effective mass to any level  
predetermined by the special effect.  It just seemed appropriate that  
different strengths of effect should take different point values, and  
imposing a minimum buy seems the obvious way to do this. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:37:10 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>  
 
> >Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move.  Nowhere in the 
> >descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of 
> >movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of 
> >effect". 
>  
> That's correct.  Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably 
> valid methods of DFC.  However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort 
> to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc.   (REF: Abort 
> rules.) 
 
As you, yourself, point out in another post, the rules qualify this by  
saying "normally."  The word, "normally" is there for a reason -- there  
are clearly abnormal conditions that might permit aborting to a movement  
power, presumably to perform some action that we want to allow for, but  
that cannot be performed without using movement. 
 
The rules all make sense if we read "normally" as allowing an exception  
for Dive for Cover, which is, after all, an *optional* manoeuvre, and  
therefore is not "normal."  
 
If we make the opposite assumption, it becomes difficult to see how to  
use Dive for Cover at all.  Leaping, even using one's normal STR to leap,  
and running are clearly movement powers.  The fact that they are  
*everyman* powers does not exclude them from being powers. 
 
Why is there a rule against aborting to a movement power?  It would be  
dramatically inappropriate and just plain strange to allow a character to  
charge into or flee from battle on an abort.  In contrast, Dive for Cover  
is unlikely to be abused in this way, because of the 1/2 combat movement  
rule, and because the character has to "hit" the hex he is aiming for.  I  
would also require that Dive for Cover represent straight line movement  
or a ballistic trajectory (as a leap), which reduces the potential for  
abuse. 
 
Now, if I am to choose between two interpretations, one of which  
produces a sensible result, and the other of which turns a published rule  
in the BBB into a nullity, I will choose the former interpretation. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @mail1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.26 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 04:32:17 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 34 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
>  
> I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread, 
> which reminded me of some questions I have about its use. 
>  
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but 
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like 
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take 
> advantage of it once they have it. 
>  
> * If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples? 
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?  What 
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?  One common maneuver 
> I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from 
> behind for a bonus.  Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a 
> villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so 
> you get a bonus.  That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had 
> one player who was inventive with Acrobatics. 
 
   When I play a character with Acrobatics (which is often), I am very 
aware of using his/her skilled agility for combat bonuses such as 
unexpected or surprise maneuvers.  I don't as often see that from 
players in games I run. 
  
> * It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing flips and 
> whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to fail. 
> Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see the 
> same attitude in your games? 
 
   The most common thought process I see is to buy Acrobatics as a skill 
to replace DEX rolls in difficult agility feats.  I would also allow 
Acrobaticsto improve a character's 'coordinated attack' roll (to have 
two characters attack simultaneously to add STUN damage together for 
stunning purposes) 
 
> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the 
> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh?  As with many aspects of 
> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when 
> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the 
> comics.  There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a 
> simple manuever and fail miserably. 
 
   An Acrobatics roll failed usually does produce resulting penalties.  
Attempting to do a fancy maneuver holds a different dynamic than a 
'regular' maneuver, so a failed roll would make a little more difficult 
to recoup, but the very possesion of the Acro skill should keep the 
reprecussions small.  Of course a BADLY failed Acro roll can be a lot of 
fun for a GM...  Also remember, that Simple Maneuvers probably have 
plusses to the roll as modifiers, so failed 'simple maneuvers' are 
somewhat rare 
 
> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other 
> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official), 
> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all?  Why not just 
> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain 
> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)?  Does it make sense to have Breakfall 
> without having Acrobatics? 
 
   I have always seen the seperation of Acrobatics and Breakfall to 
reflect a generally 'OCV/DCV' type split.  Acro is useful when attacking 
or attempting to _do_ something, while Breakfall is generally used to 
defend or prevent damage or penalties from an attack or incident.  I 
have always allowed the purchase of 3rd ed. Acrobatics (10 pts. +1 per 2 
pts.) for those who would have opther wise bought Acro _and_ Breakfall.  
I don't remember if this was an official rule or not, but I also allow - 
with 3rd ed. Acrobatics - an 'Acrobatic Dodge', which gives Dodge a +2 
with a successful Acro roll.  It basically gives a Martial Dodge to 
particularly agile characters without Martial Arts. (This does _not_ add 
to Martial Dodge) 
 
  Superfluous Anecdote; 
 
   My personally favorite use of Acrobatics, though, WAS actually 
completely for show.  My character was designed specifically to be 
obscenely Dextrous and agile, and had just joined a team with another 
DEX-machine who was also very showy and brash.  On my first adventure 
with them, we were disembarking from a plane, and the 'other guy' made a 
fancy, grandiose acrobatic flip down the stair-ramp from the plane.  So 
to be even more egotistical, I decided to do backwards handflips down 
the stairs.  There was an obscene penalty for the maneuver, but I made 
it easily.  Apparently that was the only time the 'other guy' was ever 
left at a loss for words... 
 
  -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @clients.relia.net ip 207.173.156.9 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:08:51 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 33 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    As to your points of the question, another situation that would give at 
> least Familiarity with Breakfall would be klutziness.  Someone who trips 
> over things and falls down a lot soon learns how to do it without getting 
> hurt.  (I'm speaking from personal experience here.) 
 
 
I am reminded of a fairly famous film clip of President Ford falling out 
of Air Force One, down the stairway, and coming up on his feet, with his 
hand out to shake the hand of whomever it was he was visiting. 
 
That's a breakfall. 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dewdrop2.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @dewdrop2.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.82 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 08:13:51 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
At 09:50 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of  
>>   explosions and area effect attacks. 
>>2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive  
>>   Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character 
>>   can't normally abort to a movement action. 
> 
>So, you are saying that Spider Man cannot see Hobgoblin's Pumpkin bomb 
>being thrown and react by twip-ing out a swing line and swinging away just 
>before the bomb goes off unless he has a held action? 
 
 
Yes.  Spider Man survives because of his high SPD, which allows him that  
held action.  Notice that he usually hasn't taken an action just before 
Hobgoblin strikes.  Note also that every now and then, Hobgoblin catches 
him without a held action and he takes some of the bomb blast. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4 
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:38:26 -0500 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 79 
 
At 01:01 AM 6/3/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very 
>unrealistic and silly.  As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for 
>a halberd is way to high. 
 
For one or two handed use? The point was that 'obscene minima' would be for 
one-handed use; is a 13 STR minima for two-handed (i.e. "normal") use too 
high? Or an 8? (I.e. if 2-handed use altered effective STR by 5 or 10 points). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4 
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:38:28 -0500 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 80 
 
At 06:00 PM 6/3/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Tim R Gilberg writes: 
> 
>> 	How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
>> (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
> 
>By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
>hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
#insert mad_scream 
 
Rat, it *doesn't* take away anything! 
 
A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h 
weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back 
(-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously 
a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use. 
 
Compare to these three separate constructions: 
 
#1:     2d6 HKA, 1-handed (+0) 
Cost: 30 points. 
 
#2:     2d6 HKA, 2-handed (-x) 
Cost: 30/(x+1) points 
 
#3:     30 pt. Multipower 
        u) 2d6 HKA, 1-handed (+0) 
        u) 2d6 HKA, 2-handed (-x) 
Cost: 15 + 3 + 3/(x+1) 
 
Note that #3, which emulates a "1.5 handed weapon", costs MORE than #1 or #2 
(though costs less than #1 + #2). 
 
In HERO, you often pay for flexibility as well as for raw power. Why is this 
case different? 
 
--  
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:32:42 -0700 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 39 
 
At 11:31 PM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can 
> 
>Careless error: my apologies.  I hope that no offense was taken. 
 
   A miniscule amount.  After nearly four decades of Greenway, Greenwood, 
Greenwit, Greenwait, Gruenwold (which happens to be the original Welsh form 
of the name), Green Wade (first name Green, last name Wade), and even (hold 
on to your chairs for this one) Sreenwale, I get a bit used to it.  I just 
chose to make fun of it because I've pretty clearly been Bob Greenwade on 
this list for about 3-4 years now.  :-] 
 
> find 
>> that directly quotes your work has your full name on it.... 
> 
>There have been a couple of posts that have responded to my rejoinder to  
>a comment about something I said, and which refer to the original  
>material as "someone said," and I felt like poking fun. 
 
   I've been noticing some of those as well.  Were all of them your own 
posts?  (It could indicate a serious, if hardly major, glitch in someone's 
system.) 
 
>Obviously, I failed both my spelling and my humor skill rolls this time. 
 
   Nah, t'was me who failed the Humor Skill Roll (and me with such a high 
Roll too!) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.139 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:32:46 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id JAA18399 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 37 
 
Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this 
problem.< 
 
What do you mean, their new design?  Do you mean that they are noting 
powers differently in supplements these days?  Or is there some new 
character sheet design which strongly encourages players to name each 
power? 
 
As for sticking a name next to each power, I've followed that practice for 
years, and I've even gone as far as requiring it of my players--sometimes 
they get too wrapped up in the numbers, and it's good to give the numbers a 
name 'cause it adds flavor. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.137 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:33:02 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Sign off.. 
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id JAA18422 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 38 
 
Message text written by "WG Rowland" 
>Hate to do this, but I'm on too many lists.. My server's yelling at me for 
having too many messages... I need to sign off, and, of course, I've lost 
the list serv address.. Could someone help me out with it..?< 
 
Wow, a lot of people have been jumping ship lately.  It'd probably help (at 
least in this case) if a digest version of the list was available.  I'm 
always surprised at how few lists offer a digest version.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:40:08 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels.  That's what a 
>> HUD 
>> >does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information 
>> about 
>> >the target you are shooting at.  The base system (ie no additional skill 
>> levels) 
>> >is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece.  The computer then adds 
>> details and 
>> >information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels. 
 The 
>> >weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its 
just 
>> >that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly 
reduced. 
>> 
>>    No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance. 
> 
>I never said it was. 
 
   In fact, you stated that it was not; this statement of mine is an 
agreement to yours. 
 
>>  The TV system itself (actually 
>> the camera) is Clairvoyance. 
> 
>I spent a lot of time tinking about this on airplanes and a hotel room.  I 
think 
>it is the system both the monitor and camera that make up the Clairvoyance 
power. 
>The problem I keep running into is that radar and sonar guided weapons 
work on the 
>same principle.  So why is sight treated differently? 
> 
>> The crosshairs are the system which turns the 
>> Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense.  Otherwise the gunner is just 
>> extrapolating information into educated guesswork. 
> 
>A reasonable explanation that I would accept if it were not for the 
problem with 
>Radar and Sonar. 
 
   Not a problem.  As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as 
senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located.  They can be used as 
very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle, with no 
need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it).  If a third 
party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the 
base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third party 
would be able to use the information for direct targeting -- extrapolation 
would be needed, either by hand or computer. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:09:08 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id KAA19927 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 41 
 
Message text written by cptspith@teleport.com 
>   When I play a character with Acrobatics (which is often), I am very 
aware of using his/her skilled agility for combat bonuses such as 
unexpected or surprise maneuvers.  I don't as often see that from 
players in games I run.< 
 
What sorts of unexpected or surprise maneuvers does your character do to 
get these bonuses?  I'd love to get a big list of examples from someone (or 
several someones), since I'm not acrobatically inclined and thus don't 
think in those terms. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo21.mx.aol.com from legionair@aol.com server @imo21.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.65 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:24:09 EDT 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Sign off.. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 42 
 
In a message dated 98-06-03 09:36:56 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes: 
 
<< Wow, a lot of people have been jumping ship lately.  It'd probably help (at 
 least in this case) if a digest version of the list was available.  I'm 
 always surprised at how few lists offer a digest version.... >> 
 
Well, I know I've been thinking about signing off as well, but a digest 
version would probably change my mind. 
 
Jason 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:22:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 43 
 
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
> >Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this 
> problem.< 
>  
> What do you mean, their new design?  Do you mean that they are noting 
> powers differently in supplements these days?  Or is there some new 
> character sheet design which strongly encourages players to name each 
> power? 
 
In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last 
Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet 
format.  When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the 
whole character sheet format at length.  I rather like it. 
 
If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required* 
to name each power.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel8.mindspring.com from boaters@mindspring.com server @camel8.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.58 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:44:09 -0400 
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 44 
 
Okay, so I decided to see what a good area knowledge could do with someone 
who is blind, and has no range mods. 
 
1.  If I am shooting at something inanimate, or at least not moving, in my 
own home blindfolded, I was able to do it.  (by pointing at it with my hand) 
Out of ten attempts I would have hit what I was aiming for 9 times.  (Damn 
that toaster!) 
 
2.  If trying to hit a moving target unless they made a fairly good amount of 
noise there was no way and only luck could have factored in to hitting them. 
 
3.  I have yet to try hitting something in my neighborhood and I probably 
won't try, but again, if it is inanimate I figure that I have a good chance 
of hitting it. 
 
My suggestion is this.  Choose a skill or an int roll (with whatever 
penalties you want to give him) and if he/she makes it then give them only 
the penalties of the blindfold against inamimate objects.  Against animated 
ones and they do not have incredible targetting hearing, then I would give 
them much more of a penalty.  Furthermore, hitting things down the road ten 
miles away is so dangerous (major chance of hitting something that has moved 
in the way) that even though I would rule that it is possible, I would also 
rule that unless they have major luck or they are in some area which has 100s 
of miles of farmland that they could indeed hit someone or something that 
they can currently not see.  This should stop most heroes, but if it doesn't 
let them hit an innocent and then see how they feel about shooting blind. 
 
Hope this has helped some. 
Darin 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:49:38 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id MAA25633 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 45 
 
Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last 
Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet 
format.  When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the 
whole character sheet format at length.  I rather like it. 
If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required* 
to name each power.  < 
 
I don't own many of the "gray series" books (after Hero and ICE parted 
ways--I include the Gold Rush and Atlas books in this "gray series" even 
though they're not gray), so I don't think I've noticed.  I did buy 
Atlantis and Pyramid in the Sky recently, but haven't had a chance to look 
closely at them.  Anyway, this is a GREAT decision on Hero's part.  There 
have been a few characters where I can see the power in terms of numbers, 
but I have no idea what special effect it is supposed to 
represent...sometimes this is handled in the "Powers/Tactics" text, and 
sometimes you are left to guess. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-3.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.133 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:29:08 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA27081 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 46 
 
I've recently gotten back into comic collecting, and I've been finding lots 
of neat things that happen in comic book combat that just never happen in 
Champions combat.  To give one example, in the latest issue of Avengers (I 
think it is #6 but I could be wrong), Iron Man is flying and is chasing a 
running speedster through this building.  The speedster then turns real 
sharp and Iron Man slams into the wall since he's going too fast. 
 
Now, it seems like Champions handles this simple situation because Flight 
has a turn radius and running doesn't.  However, I don't think you would 
ever get this setup in a Champions combat--you don't ever have a situation 
where a speedster is running away from a flier for a few phases so that you 
can set this up.  Iron Man didn't see the wall coming because he was too 
busy trying to target the speedster (had to get his targeting systems to 
compensate or something along those lines). 
 
Another example is in Marvel Team-Up #11....  Wrecker throws his crowbar, 
bounces it at least three times, and then it smashes the faceplate that 
Namor is wearing since he can't breathe underwater anymore.  There's a 
"Bounce" rule in Champions...I've never used it, but we had a Capt. America 
type character who used it a lot, and my observation is that it is very 
difficult to pull this off (at least if you have more than one bounce).  
Besides the fact that the rule mechanic might be difficult, I just don't 
find in my Champions game that there is any reason why you would want to do 
multiple Bounces, when all you need is a straight Called Shot. 
 
What does everyone think?  First of all, I guess I should ask if you ever 
have situations like that in your game...I've never seen anything like 
that, but maybe that's just the way I run and my GMs run (maybe the GMs 
and/or players are not being imaginative enough).  Champions simulates 
standard hand-to-hand and ranged fighting just fine, but comics have a lot 
of "neat things" like the examples above which, in my experience, can't 
easily be simulated in the game.  I think Fuzion's "Use Power" is a step in 
the right direction, but it seems like there's still a big gap between 
comic and game.  It's probably impossible to get an exact simulation, but 
does anyone have ideas on getting closer to that goal? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@dnai.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:46:32 -0700 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 47 
 
At 01:29 PM 6/3/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
 
>Another example is in Marvel Team-Up #11....  Wrecker throws his crowbar, 
>bounces it at least three times, and then it smashes the faceplate that 
>Namor is wearing since he can't breathe underwater anymore.  There's a 
>"Bounce" rule in Champions...I've never used it, but we had a Capt. America 
>type character who used it a lot, and my observation is that it is very 
>difficult to pull this off (at least if you have more than one bounce).  
>Besides the fact that the rule mechanic might be difficult, I just don't 
>find in my Champions game that there is any reason why you would want to do 
>multiple Bounces, when all you need is a straight Called Shot. 
> 
Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss 
the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the face." 
 
Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it. 
 
For example: 
 "Captain Evil fires an energy bolt at you. He misses. You fire at him. You 
hit. Roll for knockback. Two inches. He's stunned." 
 
Versus: 
"Captain Evil fires an energy bolt at you, but you leap up at the last 
minute so the bolt seers the floor. While you're in midair, bolts of fire 
blast from your hands, catching him square in the chest. He flies back into 
the wall, making a Captain Evil shaped impression. He staggers forward, 
dazed, but still standing." 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:08:43 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 55 
 
At 04:58 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>>In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last 
>Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet 
>format.  When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the 
>whole character sheet format at length.  I rather like it. 
>If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required* 
>to name each power.  < 
> 
>I don't own many of the "gray series" books (after Hero and ICE parted 
>ways--I include the Gold Rush and Atlas books in this "gray series" even 
>though they're not gray), so I don't think I've noticed.  I did buy 
>Atlantis and Pyramid in the Sky recently, but haven't had a chance to look 
>closely at them.  Anyway, this is a GREAT decision on Hero's part.  There 
>have been a few characters where I can see the power in terms of numbers, 
>but I have no idea what special effect it is supposed to 
>represent...sometimes this is handled in the "Powers/Tactics" text, and 
>sometimes you are left to guess. 
 
   Actually, the new format started with TUMA (#510), though because there 
were no characters in that book we didn't see the new format for them until 
the next release, which (IIRC) was Pyramid In The Sky (#437).  Since then 
only Enemies For Hire (#437) has used the old format, and this was 
apparently a decision based on that book's overall format. 
   The last book with ICE was Watchers of the Dragon (#422); the only new 
books published since the split with ICE have been either through Hero 
Plus, or as part of the C:TNM series. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.139 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:17:42 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id OAA28859 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 48 
 
Message text written by Lizard 
>Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss 
the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the 
face."< 
 
Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB?  That sounds like 
one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how 
liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations. 
 
>Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it.< 
 
I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about having 
lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess that my 
games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not proud of), 
but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving chase 
to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting systems, 
and slamming into a wall) just don't happen.  You can attach a rule to the 
chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the 
wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is that the 
overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the nature of 
the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the 
battlefield. 
 
Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being 
distracted by his targeting system tweaking.  Concentration won't work, 
because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for 
several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might 
even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another 
task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation 
before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it). 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com ip 206.214.98.8 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:39:42 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 49 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
>  
> Message text written by Lizard 
> >Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss 
> the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the 
> face."< 
>  
> Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB?  That sounds like 
> one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how 
> liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations. 
 
It's a way to do indirect without having the advantage.  I forget the issue, 
but 
Daredevil throws his baton past a villain who gloats about it missing. It 
bounces 
off something and hits the villain in the back of the head. 
 
DD spent a level to bounce it, but got an OCV bonus for a suprise maneuver. 
 
> Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being 
> distracted by his targeting system tweaking.  Concentration won't work, 
> because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for 
> several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might 
> even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another 
> task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation 
> before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it). 
 
Iron man failed his Per roll and the GM screwed him for it. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:47:46 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 51 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air. 
 
Oh.  Well.  That is "Flight". 
 
> If you get grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall 
> you were clinging to. 
 
Only if you are thrown into said wall. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXWaUZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEXnwQAjr/mTaPNiRdKh4Z9iTFAz0JCusY4ZEQi 
siYR9XIsQW2hI768d639PqnywiAaG9LHRiYPnoj5p6gssfsAhpjfGfV8Lt/2Sv6Z 
1Il21Y2EGnWDXQQg9vM4E193ogpnN5+KKUsO7kj9H78Wa5w3D+ls7zycVEtiCOEi 
fSPM8yVQPas= 
=m9iz 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:49:40 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 50 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Chad Riley writes: 
 
> Yeah but I managed to ignore it until now. 
> BTW would the limited flight require a "Climing" Skill. 
 
No.  It is a "superskill".  Just as normal skills do not require rolls for 
normal, day-to-day use, a "superkill" does not (or at least should not) 
require any kind of roll for what is considered "normal" for it. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXWaw56VRH7BJMxHAQFGywQAiZOt8w6cXjWHvquTGfi1zCAEwc63qKO3 
dnu9JA5rd4BEIXDIh+HcH9TurBkGab9cd9HARvrU2UfkVF0ZAMLpxbhuVqiI+ckw 
OBOGzGbovhT7eaMd7G6S38kCgNCmPD3FIBPbcrKvkTl6Qj89n6+pXXdMNW4rE6yO 
KbES8WUFKss= 
=bNWA 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo send1b.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1b.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.23 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:54:08 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 52 
 
---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about 
having 
> lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess 
that my 
> games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not 
proud of), 
> but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving 
chase 
> to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting 
systems, 
> and slamming into a wall) just don't happen.  You can attach a rule 
to the 
> chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the 
> wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is 
that the 
> overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the 
nature of 
> the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the 
> battlefield. 
 
This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but 
if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no 
pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field 
of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that 
the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll 
(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is). 
 
 
  
> Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man 
being 
> distracted by his targeting system tweaking.  Concentration won't 
work, 
> because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for 
> several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs 
might 
> even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on 
another 
> task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation 
> before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it). 
 
The major effect of Concentration is to reduce your DCV (0 or 1/2).  I 
don't believe that in and of itself it precludes you from doing other 
things (the power that has this limitation may though). 
 
 
== 
=========================================================== 
        John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
=========================================================== 
#  Keeper of the Hero Mailing List. Got a question about  # 
#  the list? Scope out http://www.sysabend.org/champions. # 
#              New feature: Cardboard Heroes.             # 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:54:35 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 53 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000 
> miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man 
> only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target? 
 
If the same power with the same target and the same range, yes.  The 
*POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it. 
 
> Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in 
> relation to him first? 
 
This has no bearing on NRM. 
 
> If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to 
> the power-user when the hex is farther away? 
 
Again, this has nothing to do with NRM.  Ditto for the rest of your 
"points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the 
power. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXWb6p6VRH7BJMxHAQH0WgP/QN23ik3s9eyij7gEwo6vMt7H/E7+Uiap 
/9lM4XfaU5bChxp26NpDFagyWGhHee4q/YptAHsyIBUhMyaL0Y49xGlOZr6bJELQ 
u5q1DfnTav4ExdnJz5sLVYx3RwPAbScZXyuNgeebDS5PjDxp4wyXfzlw2ir2FIOm 
n1XemcXD96A= 
=u0Xq 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:58:46 -0400 
Lines: 31 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 54 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a 
> disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed? 
 
The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed.  A 1.5-hand 
weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed 
weapons cannot be wielded with two hands).  With two hands it is a more 
effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers).  Thus the 
limitation. 
 
How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking 
unrelated questions? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCUAwUBNXWc5Z6VRH7BJMxHAQFibAP2N+k81chT1pVpRGJwkSnVp/lUfmvuv5GV 
WWs1EebrIwW2PNLb+vaKlAgBN055M34bDnYXhaZwTVanfmh0PT/XmOwsTunOSVd6 
84ERgH6CpmHtsnvG0YesF804AslNBe027/ehCnOw+2csnMGRZzZNIT6VCO6xgQU6 
KdK1APM3KQ== 
=ulrs 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:14:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 58 
 
At 06:24 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Lizard 
>>Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss 
>the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the 
>face."< 
> 
>Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB?  That sounds like 
>one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how 
>liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations. 
 
   Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly.  The bouncing was used to get a 
bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one 
direction and it came from another.  The villain (I forget who you said it 
was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3 
for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was 
halved). 
 
>>Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it.< 
> 
>I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about having 
>lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess that my 
>games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not proud of), 
>but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving chase 
>to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting systems, 
>and slamming into a wall) just don't happen.  You can attach a rule to the 
>chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the 
>wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is that the 
>overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the nature of 
>the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the 
>battlefield. 
> 
>Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being 
>distracted by his targeting system tweaking.  Concentration won't work, 
>because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for 
>several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might 
>even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another 
>task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation 
>before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it). 
 
   This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of 
his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV.  Granted that the specifics of the 
situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at 
least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does 
look to me like the basic situation in this case. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:23:32 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 56 
 
At 02:54 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Filksinger  writes: 
> 
>> So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000 
>> miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man 
>> only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target? 
> 
>If the same power with the same target and the same range, yes.  The 
>*POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it. 
 
   I agree fully here. 
 
>> Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in 
>> relation to him first? 
> 
>This has no bearing on NRM. 
 
   Hence my suggested rule for using Range Mods for drawing a bead on a 
target that can't be sensed with a Targeting Sense.  This would have the 
mathematical effect of doubling Range Modifiers for an unmodified Power, or 
adding Range Modifierss to one with No Range Modifier. 
 
>> If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to 
>> the power-user when the hex is farther away? 
> 
>Again, this has nothing to do with NRM.  Ditto for the rest of your 
>"points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the 
>power. 
 
   Here, again, I agree fully.  Any penalties imposed should be involved in 
drawing a bead on the target, not on actually firing the weapon.  The 
special Range Mods I'm suggesting (and mind you, I'm only *suggesting* it 
until it becomes clear that nobody's going to shoot it down, as it were) 
are defined as difficulty in perceiving the target and aiming the weapon, 
not in making the weapon hit the target once it's properly aimed. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:25:26 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 57 
 
At 02:58 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Filksinger  writes: 
> 
>> That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a 
>> disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed? 
> 
>The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed.  A 1.5-hand 
>weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed 
>weapons cannot be wielded with two hands).  With two hands it is a more 
>effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers).  Thus the 
>limitation. 
> 
>How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking 
>unrelated questions? 
 
   Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics of 
a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed weapon, 
comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are. 
   I admit that I'm a little fuzzy on the matter myself. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.139 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:04:01 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA03456 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 60 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Actually, the new format started with TUMA (#510), though because there 
were no characters in that book we didn't see the new format for them until 
the next release, which (IIRC) was Pyramid In The Sky (#437).  Since then 
only Enemies For Hire (#437) has used the old format, and this was 
apparently a decision based on that book's overall format. 
   The last book with ICE was Watchers of the Dragon (#422); the only new 
books published since the split with ICE have been either through Hero 
Plus, or as part of the C:TNM series.< 
 
Oh...I don't usually pay much attention to the publisher logos or anything, 
so I guess I just assumed that the books changed from the "blue series" to 
the "gray series" when ICE dropped out of the picture.  I thought all the 
gray books were post-ICE, but it sounds like all of them are ICE.  Why the 
change in format then?  Someone just felt like updating the look? 
 
I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem 
to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not 
necessarily have higher numbers)...dare I ask why?  I always assumed this 
was the case, since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:04:36 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 59 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need.  They make a skill  
>roll and tell me how much they succeeded by.  "I made my DEX roll by 3,"  
>to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to  
>hold on."  That would indicate a -3 modifier. 
> 
>Attack rolls are similar.  The players roll and add obvious modifiers,  
>such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!"  I then inform them of  
>whether that hit or not.  Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,  
>this can vary from phase to phase. 
 
Our play group does this the same way: "backward" to how the rules book 
explains things. 
 
>There are faster ways to do this.  One is to use tally notation, counting  
>END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining.  Another is to print off a series  
>of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to  
>represent END, STUN and BODY.  At the beginning of play, one marks off  
>with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56  
>STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the  
>blocks thereafter.  One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,  
>and erases as STUN is recovered. 
 
This is a great idea, one I'll certainly try to use. 
 
I struggle with keeping track of multiple opponents (especially agents with 
different euipment): what they have, what they can do, and what strategy 
they're using.  Anything that makes this simpler to keep track of helps me. 
Thanks. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:10:31 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 62 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
>Oh yeah, I agree totally.  But I think H4 could really benefit from having 
>a huge list of SFX-based powers inserted in front of the power creation 
>rules, so that players only have to delve into that complexity every now 
>and then...most of what they want will already be defined for them, so they 
>just transcribe it to their character sheet and move on.  It seems like 
>either Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes was like this, but I haven't opened 
>my (1st edition) boxes of either game for many years.  Maybe the "Superhero 
>Campaign Book" that is scheduled for release in the distant future could 
>define a bunch of archetypes....ice powers, illusionist powers, stuff like 
>that.  I don't see this happening (it's somewhat against the HSR mindset), 
>but it could help newbies especially. 
 
While a list of many example powers may be useful as well as some defined 
archetypes, I would prefer to see these archetypes not based on special effects. 
 
I would rather see either combat archetypes such as martial artist (which we 
already have), brick, energy projector, gadgeteer/armored hero.  I might 
also like to see character archetypes such as boy scout, grizzled veteran, 
detective, etc.  Those would give me more ideas for building characters than 
"ice powers," "microwave powers," "darkness powers," etc.  Look at the 
Ultimate Mentalist for an example of how broad simply "mental powers" can be. 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:13:18 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 61 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>   Do you have the first edition Bestiary?  Susko had a pretty cool trick 
>in that one that should have been kept for the second edition.  Each 
>creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another 
>table was given detailing the changes for other types.  For "Camel-Like 
>Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for 
>a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a 
>llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca. 
 
 
I've never seen the earlier Bestiary.  While I think the current one is only 
moderately useful, something like what Bob describes above would seem to be 
very useful.  I think perhaps the Bestiary could be broken down (or 
expanded) into things like real-world animals, horror monsters, fantasy 
monsters (from several traditions), etc. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:14:54 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA04036 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 63 
 
Message text written by john.desmarais@ibm.net 
>This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but 
if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no 
pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field 
of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that 
the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll 
(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).< 
 
I've found that leaving out the map can be a good thing for games like 
AD&D, but it doesn't really work for Champions...at least, my group hasn't 
been able to make it work--too many questions arise about what is within 
reach that can be thrown, how many phases will it take me to get to the 
door, and so on.  Anyway, after I sent that last message, I got the idea of 
using a dynamic map where you draw things as they come into view.  However, 
this seems like it would be a nightmare for the GM, especially if he erases 
stuff that goes out of view.  Usually, the GM draws a fixed map and all 
action takes place within that map...if somebody gets knocked off the map, 
we just estimate how long it takes to get back on, and if someone 
intentionally leaves the map (ie., leaves the entire roll-out map and is 
walking on an "unhexed" part of the table), we say that they have left the 
battlesite and are out for the rest of the combat.  There are exceptions to 
this last bit, though, such as when the PCs are chasing after villains who 
are trying to flee the scene. 
 
It seems that if you have a need for dynamic maps, then you probably aren't 
using combat time.  For instance, if the PCs are roaming through a big 
warehouse and the villain pops up every now and then to do an attack, and 
then disappears again.  After he disappears, you don't want to use combat 
time to figure out how the PCs wander around looking for him.  When he pops 
up, I guess you would start combat time, then stop when he disappears, then 
start up again when he reappears.  This could be a likely scenario with a 
teleporting (or maybe tunneling) villain.  Anyway, every time he pops up in 
a different location, you'd have to draw a different sub-map of this big 
warehouse (or whatever). 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:17:22 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 64 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
>I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread, 
>which reminded me of some questions I have about its use. 
 
>* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?  
>Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?  What 
>bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?  One common maneuver 
>I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from 
>behind for a bonus.  Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a 
>villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so 
>you get a bonus.  That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had 
>one player who was inventive with Acrobatics. 
 
We tend not to give many combat bonuses for use of acrobatics or fast draw 
or whatever.  We probably should give more bonuses for surprise maneuvers, 
but we typically insist that if want a regular combat bonus you should pay 
for it.  We see, therefore, many more 5-point combat skill levels that 
require a skill roll such as acrobatics, fast draw, or sleight of hand. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:23:03 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 67 
 
Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
>Dive For Cover is an aborting action. 
>You cannot abort to a teleport.  
 
 
While the BBB says " a character can't normally abort to a movement action" 
(141), in the Dive for Cover section it does say "a character can abort his 
next Phase in order to Dive for Cover" (155).  Taking this with the fact 
that the book allows a character to "abort his next action to perform a 
defensive Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action like turning on a 
Force Field" it seems reasonable to assume that a character may Dive for 
Cover using a movement power. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:25:03 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 65 
 
 
> From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
 
> ---David Stallard  wrote: 
> > 
>> nature of 
> > the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the 
> > battlefield. 
>  
> This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but 
> if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no 
> pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field 
> of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that 
> the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll 
> (modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is). 
>  
 
Or if your players are good enough role-players not to use player knowledge 
versus character knowledge.  I had this problem with a speedster PC with 
a no-range 'wake blast' that had to travel through the hex her target was 
in.  Realistically she should have made at least one low-speed pass through 
the area to get an idea of the layout before making full speed attack runs. 
 
Curt 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:27:01 -0400 (EDT) 
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from genfield@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217 
X-Sender: genfield@mail.cyberis.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 69 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>   This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules.  If there have ever been 
>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I 
>don't know where it is.  It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in 
>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going 
>to hit the wall.  But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be 
>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event 
>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast). 
 
 
We use a 0 OCV attack for this sort of thing and only roll the dice if it 
makes things interesting.  The 0 OCV attack emphasizes the defenders ability 
to get out of the way over the accuracy of the attack: characters don't 
normally get hit by stray shots if they're aware of them, walls or telephone 
poles are much less likely to move out of the way. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:29:38 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA04857 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 68 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly.  The bouncing was used to get 
a 
bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one 
direction and it came from another.  The villain (I forget who you said it 
was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3 
for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was 
halved).< 
 
The way it happened was that Wrecker threw his crowbar at Iron Man and 
missed.  Iron Man said something like "Ha, you missed!", and Wrecker 
replied with something like "Did I?".  We then see the crowbar bounce three 
times and smash Sub-Mariner's faceplate.  So rather than looking for an 
attack in one direction when it came from another, Sub-Mariner wasn't 
expecting an attack at all...it looked like Wrecker was gunning for Iron 
Man.  Maybe some additional bonuses here?  In addition to taking 
Sub-Mariner by surprise, Wrecker might have caused Iron Man to abort to a 
dodge or whatever.... 
 
>>   This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of 
his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV.  Granted that the specifics of the 
situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at 
least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does 
look to me like the basic situation in this case.<< 
 
How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and 
not see that he was coming up on a wall?  Other than the dynamic mapping 
that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta 
like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in 
Champions.  Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is 
failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time 
but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting 
the speedster".  If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or 
something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive 
the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up 
fast.  Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and 
players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a 
largely tactical environment such as HSR combat. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 16:32:46 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 70 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Here, again, I agree fully.  Any penalties imposed should be involved 
> in drawing a bead on the target, not on actually firing the weapon.  The 
> special Range Mods I'm suggesting (and mind you, I'm only *suggesting* it 
> until it becomes clear that nobody's going to shoot it down, as it were) 
> are defined as difficulty in perceiving the target and aiming the weapon, 
> not in making the weapon hit the target once it's properly aimed. 
 
Remember that rMods apply just as much to perception rolls as they do to 
attack rolls. 
 
At this point the GM needs to use a bit of common sense as appropriate for 
the game he is running. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXWy7p6VRH7BJMxHAQGxfgP+PGBDrqYy16c3q/BC7FvD9OySv6+vSuaU 
5UDQtaWCl0XmHQ3k+qpIVR8QFVnD25pi4tGBlSxGBIdeGTvkOtOav4qPOKpxDMgG 
n/hzeYy74zZKysx/h/onTz8MbgnnlZOqlsHdlQd/pffc+5zW+nB8EBmsZ9DhJetz 
J9KM3JmgXP8= 
=UZsN 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:33:28 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 66 
 
 
> weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed 
> weapons cannot be wielded with two hands).  With two hands it is a more 
> effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers).  Thus the 
> limitation. 
> 
> How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking 
> unrelated questions? 
 
	And how many times do you have to look stupid before you realize a 
point? 
 
	How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
(that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
 
	And example:  2* END is, I think, a -1/2 limitation.  Would you 
allow someone to take a power as"Sometimes 2*END, at player's option" for 
a -1/4 limitation? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 16:42:01 -0400 
Lines: 46 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 71 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics 
> of a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed 
> weapon, comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are. 
 
First, there is no such thing as a weapon that requires one and a half 
hands.  It might seem obvious, but I am just being sure :). 
 
There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively.  These are 
one-handed weapons.  You can do whatever you want with your off hand (the 
one that isn't used to hold the weapon).  This is frequently used to hold a 
shield, but can be used for a variety of suprise maneuvers or other tasks. 
 
There are weapons that require two hands to wield effectively.  These are 
two-handed weapons.  Since both hands are occupied with the weapon, you 
have no free hands with which to do other things (like no throwing sand in 
your opponent's face), thus a limitation. 
 
There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively but can be 
used with two hands, becoming slightly more effective.  When wielded with 
two hands, like a "real" two-handed weapon, the off hand is not free, thus 
a limitation.  Since the off-hand can be made free, it is worth less of a 
bonus than a two-handed weapon. 
 
Or perhaps they can be called two-handed weapons that can be wielded less 
effectively with one hand.  Because the weapon is sometimes less than fully 
effective it gets a limitation. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXW1GJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHi9gP+PBYqFk2GaJnKvAEJ8H4UG6btsbw1J1vb 
rCIBtlJ0EeJBth5rS/FAIv7kTYJuHvN3OK0f4IVwFBmt+hLfR22rHAc6XRTka1t4 
qGTBD/+QwojwOtFcNOlf7OhKWLn0N5EbqlwZzKKndmZ2gERTTk+l/YG4SFkAsVV9 
DdLQ6tIHZ40= 
=yLqA 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:55:09 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA06372 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 72 
 
Message text written by Grant Enfield 
>We tend not to give many combat bonuses for use of acrobatics or fast draw 
or whatever.  We probably should give more bonuses for surprise maneuvers, 
but we typically insist that if want a regular combat bonus you should pay 
for it.  We see, therefore, many more 5-point combat skill levels that 
require a skill roll such as acrobatics, fast draw, or sleight of hand.< 
 
"Requires a Skill Roll" is a Limitation that never gets used in my group, 
but this certainly sounds like a valid use of it. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
X-SMTP: helo stimpy.ir.miami.edu from aregalad@miami.edu server @stimpy.ir.miami.edu ip 129.171.32.32 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:06:59 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 73 
 
 
> >>   This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of 
> his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV.  Granted that the specifics of the 
> situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at 
> least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does 
> look to me like the basic situation in this case.<< 
>  
> How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and 
> not see that he was coming up on a wall?  Other than the dynamic mapping 
> that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta 
> like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in 
> Champions.  Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is 
> failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time 
> but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting 
> the speedster".  If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or 
> something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive 
> the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up 
> fast.  Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and 
> players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a 
> largely tactical environment such as HSR combat. 
 
It's interesting to hear people talking about these map problems. In our 
campaigns, we only use the map about 10% of the time. Back in the early 
80s we used the map ALL the time, but the group I've been gaming with for 
the past 12 years or so doesn't like them, so we don't use them very 
much. Sometimes I miss it, but I will say this - it makes it easier to do 
some of the more dramatic and quirky maneuvers that occur in comicbooks 
because you are not bound by the layout you draw on the map. 
 
Some thoughts -  
 
1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it 
possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could 
have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the 
Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it 
even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough. 
 
2 - Has anybody seen the Masterbook or Torg card system? There are some 
neat functions in there that supplement regular game play. There are rules 
for allowing characters to perform "Trick" maneuvers on opponents, thus 
tricking them into making stupid mistakes. There are other really neat 
aspects of this system, and I have considered working it into my champions 
games, but have not given it much thought. 
 
See ya, 
 
Dragonfly 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-8.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.138 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:24:27 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA07625 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 74 
 
Message text written by aregalad@miami.edu 
>1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it 
possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could 
have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the 
Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it 
even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough.< 
 
The DEX roll isn't really necessary, since it can just be explained as the 
Flight turn radius...Iron Man was just going too fast to turn in time or to 
decelerate.  The speedster was running (no turn radius), so he was never in 
danger of hitting the wall by accident. 
 
>2 - Has anybody seen the Masterbook or Torg card system? There are some 
neat functions in there that supplement regular game play. There are rules 
for allowing characters to perform "Trick" maneuvers on opponents, thus 
tricking them into making stupid mistakes. There are other really neat 
aspects of this system, and I have considered working it into my champions 
games, but have not given it much thought.< 
 
I thought the Torg card system was absolutely incredible for making each 
combat unique and much more interesting than "I punch...I punch again...I 
punch again".  Those cards were the most innovative thing I've seen in 
role-playing in quite a while (still are!), and I really wish that they 
(not necessarily cards, but that concept--maybe special dice) had become 
more of a standard instead of being a hidden treasure in a relatively 
obscure RPG.  I'd encourage anyone to pick up a used copy of the Torg box 
(as far as I know, the game died a few years back so you'd probably have to 
buy it used) just to get their hands on these cards...simply a brilliant 
tool for encouraging player imagination.  I think eventually you could ween 
the group off the cards and still get all that variety of action.  Okay, 
now I need something to clean up this drool with.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jun 1998 18:00:26 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 77 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
> (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
 
By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXXHeZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFcHAP9GUv+30uKbz7h/4Q7wXmAy5Ifon3URCJ7 
t7bgxSzL3DsOqGifR7DhyCirS9ihPW2D80q+CLGPJQuDtKP9KgVRqBIGdN5BPFsj 
rWnHlUbnf8mY9A53iQtelSZgoxdIoJCJxdZYD3GBEPOeP5YEdjGzolfIbPLsHkB6 
sTYALt4OFoo= 
=6LWD 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
X-SMTP: helo stimpy.ir.miami.edu from aregalad@miami.edu server @stimpy.ir.miami.edu ip 129.171.32.32 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:00:40 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 75 
 
Howdy, 
 
> >1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it 
> possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could 
> have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the 
> Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it 
> even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough.< 
>  
> The DEX roll isn't really necessary, since it can just be explained as the 
> Flight turn radius...Iron Man was just going too fast to turn in time or to 
> decelerate.  The speedster was running (no turn radius), so he was never in 
> danger of hitting the wall by accident. 
 
Well there you go! I had not read the comicbook, so I didn't know, but 
that works perfectly, it seems. Incidently, my players are a great bunch, 
but in the heat of combat they get enough "brain farts" to make the 
occassional BAD decision. These lead to MANY unique combat moments. The 
trick for me as GM is to make up good enough excuses for these screw-ups 
so they feel "in genre" and don't make the characters involved look too 
stupid. No need to punish the character for the players actions. :] 
(Unless the player is REALLY incompetent). 
 
> I thought the Torg card system was absolutely incredible for making each 
> combat unique and much more interesting than "I punch...I punch again...I 
> punch again".  Those cards were the most innovative thing I've seen in 
> role-playing in quite a while (still are!), and I really wish that they 
> (not necessarily cards, but that concept--maybe special dice) had become 
> more of a standard instead of being a hidden treasure in a relatively 
> obscure RPG.  I'd encourage anyone to pick up a used copy of the Torg box 
> (as far as I know, the game died a few years back so you'd probably have to 
> buy it used) just to get their hands on these cards...simply a brilliant 
> tool for encouraging player imagination.  I think eventually you could ween 
> the group off the cards and still get all that variety of action.  Okay, 
> now I need something to clean up this drool with.... 
 
Heh, I agree with you 100%. HAVE you ever experimented with using the 
cards (or some variation) in HERO? 
 
See ya, 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: SteveL1979@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo14.mx.aol.com from stevel1979@aol.com server @imo14.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.36 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:19:32 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 76 
 
In a message dated 98-06-03 16:18:48 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes: 
 
<< Why the change in format then?  Someone just felt like updating the look? 
>> 
 
  I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of the 
character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info not 
listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of each 
character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that 
deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather than 
in the first column.  But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on the 
situation 
  
<< I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem 
 to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not necessarily 
have higher numbers)...dare I ask why?  I always assumed this was the case, 
since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either.... >> 
 
  Newer books have higher numbers *within their product lines.*  The Ultimate 
books, being a different product line from straight Champions stuff, have a 
different numbering sequence.  Hence UMA is #510, and Ult. Mentalist #512 (TUM 
came out after UMA), but WOTD is #422 even though it was released long after 
UMA -- WOTD is a different line from UMA. 
 
Steve Long 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:57:31 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 87 
 
At 08:24 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by john.desmarais@ibm.net 
>>This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but 
>if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no 
>pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field 
>of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that 
>the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll 
>(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).< 
> 
>I've found that leaving out the map can be a good thing for games like 
>AD&D, but it doesn't really work for Champions...at least, my group hasn't 
>been able to make it work--too many questions arise about what is within 
>reach that can be thrown, how many phases will it take me to get to the 
>door, and so on.  Anyway, after I sent that last message, I got the idea of 
>using a dynamic map where you draw things as they come into view.  However, 
>this seems like it would be a nightmare for the GM, especially if he erases 
>stuff that goes out of view.  Usually, the GM draws a fixed map and all 
>action takes place within that map...if somebody gets knocked off the map, 
>we just estimate how long it takes to get back on, and if someone 
>intentionally leaves the map (ie., leaves the entire roll-out map and is 
>walking on an "unhexed" part of the table), we say that they have left the 
>battlesite and are out for the rest of the combat.  There are exceptions to 
>this last bit, though, such as when the PCs are chasing after villains who 
>are trying to flee the scene. 
 
   I've always had a good deal of success with dynamic maps where the GM 
starts with what's readily visible, and then draws in stuff as it comes 
into view.  The group I was with in Salem did this, but we never removed 
stuff that went out of view; it was left as it was when we last saw it -- 
though that wouldn't mean that what was there actually would stay that way! 
   As for leaving the battle-map for whatever reason, we tended to let how 
it was handled depend on the reason for leaving.  Usually, it was a matter 
of massive Knockback being done, but the character wasn't actually knocked 
out, so we'd just remember how many inches off the map the character was 
supposed to be, and then let that character resolve it on his next Phase. 
Your situation of fleeing the scene was the second most common reason for 
this, and on a couple of occasions the fight just "wandered" off the map 
(one time it split in two, and the two parts wandered in opposite 
directions!). 
 
>It seems that if you have a need for dynamic maps, then you probably aren't 
>using combat time.  For instance, if the PCs are roaming through a big 
>warehouse and the villain pops up every now and then to do an attack, and 
>then disappears again.  After he disappears, you don't want to use combat 
>time to figure out how the PCs wander around looking for him.  When he pops 
>up, I guess you would start combat time, then stop when he disappears, then 
>start up again when he reappears.  This could be a likely scenario with a 
>teleporting (or maybe tunneling) villain.  Anyway, every time he pops up in 
>a different location, you'd have to draw a different sub-map of this big 
>warehouse (or whatever). 
 
   The most explicit use of a dynamic map in combat time that I ever saw 
was when the PCs were raiding a Terror Inc. safe-house that we'd tracked 
down.  (I was the group leader in this campaign.)  We surrounded the house, 
so the GM just drew the exterior wall, including all external doors and 
windows.  Then, as we burst in (yes, we were sanctioned heroes and had a 
legally-obtained no-knock warrant), the GM just drew in the rooms as we 
entered them, the upper floor in red and the ground floor in blue.  We 
expected that combat to take a long time in mapping, but really the main 
reason it took as long as it did was because there were 10 heroes and 8 
villains (including a batch of mercenary villains). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:07:39 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 84 
 
At 08:39 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly.  The bouncing was used to get a 
>bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one 
>direction and it came from another.  The villain (I forget who you said it 
>was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3 
>for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was 
>halved).< 
> 
>The way it happened was that Wrecker threw his crowbar at Iron Man and 
>missed.  Iron Man said something like "Ha, you missed!", and Wrecker 
>replied with something like "Did I?".  We then see the crowbar bounce three 
>times and smash Sub-Mariner's faceplate.  So rather than looking for an 
>attack in one direction when it came from another, Sub-Mariner wasn't 
>expecting an attack at all...it looked like Wrecker was gunning for Iron 
>Man.  Maybe some additional bonuses here?  In addition to taking 
>Sub-Mariner by surprise, Wrecker might have caused Iron Man to abort to a 
>dodge or whatever.... 
 
   Definitely a surprise -- Sub-Mariner would get 1/2 DCV for being taken 
by surprise, and would get no Skill Levels for DCV.  If the situation was 
"out of combat," then Hit Location modifiers would be halved as well.  Even 
so, I suspect that Sub-Mariner has a DCV (including Skill Levels) of more 
than 6, making those 3 Bounces worth their investment even if Iron Man 
didn't Abort to a Dodge. 
 
>>>   This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of 
>his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV.  Granted that the specifics of the 
>situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at 
>least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does 
>look to me like the basic situation in this case.<< 
> 
>How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and 
>not see that he was coming up on a wall?  Other than the dynamic mapping 
>that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta 
>like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in 
>Champions.  Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is 
>failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time 
>but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting 
>the speedster".  If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or 
>something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive 
>the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up 
>fast.  Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and 
>players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a 
>largely tactical environment such as HSR combat. 
 
   Losing track of his environment is just SFX.  What happened in game 
terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something 
that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then 
trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn 
Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall. 
(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!) 
   Another possibility for game mechanics on this is a system in his suit 
that Requires a Skill Roll.  It's entirely possible that he had his Levels 
in that, which would have the same end effect. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:24:20 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Formats 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 81 
 
At 06:19 PM 6/3/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 98-06-03 16:18:48 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes: 
> 
><< Why the change in format then?  Someone just felt like updating the look? 
>>> 
> 
>  I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of the 
>character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info not 
>listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of each 
>character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that 
>deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather than 
>in the first column.  But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on the 
>situation 
 
   Both (a) and (b) succeeded.  In particular, (a) worked in that 
everything had at least a name that gave some sort of cue to the GM as to 
what sort of description to give it.  It could use a bit of tweaking; for 
instance, Disadvantages should always have their frequency and intensity 
listed unless taken at the minimum or maximum levels, or it can be 
extrapolated from existing information (as is common with Berserk or 
Reputation), there is a "standard" form of the Disadvantage, or some 
similar situation exists. 
   Still, what's there is worlds better than what was being done before. 
   (And in case anyone's confused, PTB = Powers That Be, Steve's nickname 
for those to whom I refer as the Hero Guys -- Mssrs. Harlick & Peterson, 
with maybe a little MacDonald and Robinson thrown in for good measure.) 
 
><< I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem 
> to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not necessarily 
>have higher numbers)...dare I ask why?  I always assumed this was the case, 
>since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either.... >> 
> 
>  Newer books have higher numbers *within their product lines.*  The Ultimate 
>books, being a different product line from straight Champions stuff, have a 
>different numbering sequence.  Hence UMA is #510, and Ult. Mentalist #512 
(TUM 
>came out after UMA), but WOTD is #422 even though it was released long after 
>UMA -- WOTD is a different line from UMA. 
 
   The two lines, as I understand it, were rules supplements such as genre 
books, Ultimate books, Almanacs, and the like (500 series); and campaign 
supplements for Champions (400 series).  (Pre-4th Edition stuff was just 
numbered sequentially from 1 through somewhere in the 40s or so.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:29:01 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 83 
 
At 04:04 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote: 
>Robert A. West wrote: 
> 
>>BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need.  They make a skill  
>>roll and tell me how much they succeeded by.  "I made my DEX roll by 3,"  
>>to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to  
>>hold on."  That would indicate a -3 modifier. 
>> 
>>Attack rolls are similar.  The players roll and add obvious modifiers,  
>>such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!"  I then inform them of  
>>whether that hit or not.  Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,  
>>this can vary from phase to phase. 
> 
>Our play group does this the same way: "backward" to how the rules book 
>explains things. 
 
   There are those that complain that it's "Not the Hero Way!," but really 
anything that comes out mathematically the same is fine as long as it 
works.  The method Robert describes above is generally considered to be the 
most effective way, since it conceals the opponents' DCVs from the players. 
 The formula would be: 
 
   DCV Hit = OCV + 3d6 - 11 (or less) 
 
   For those who like to consistently look for high rolls on the dice (the 
Fuzion Way, as it were, though it predates Fuzion by a couple of years): 
 
   DCV Hit = OCV + 3d6 - 10 (or more) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:30:01 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 78 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> >      How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
>  
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
> hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
The problem is, using the hand and a half limitation _as written_, the only 
effect is that if you _choose_ to use it with 2 hands you get -3 STR min.  In 
other words, you can use it in one hand _just as well_ as you could before -- 
you just get a special bonus of being able to use it with two hands as well.  
You can never use the weapon with two hands, and all that happens is that you 
get some points -- STR min remains the same. 
The limitation should be '+3 STR min to use 1 handed', not '-3 STR min to use 2 
handed'. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:39:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 86 
 
At 04:13 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>   Do you have the first edition Bestiary?  Susko had a pretty cool trick 
>>in that one that should have been kept for the second edition.  Each 
>>creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another 
>>table was given detailing the changes for other types.  For "Camel-Like 
>>Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for 
>>a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a 
>>llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca. 
> 
>I've never seen the earlier Bestiary.  While I think the current one is only 
>moderately useful, something like what Bob describes above would seem to be 
>very useful.  I think perhaps the Bestiary could be broken down (or 
>expanded) into things like real-world animals, horror monsters, fantasy 
>monsters (from several traditions), etc. 
 
   Actually, both Bestiaries are divided up something like that.  The 
sections in the first were Real Animals, Prehistoric Animals, Mythical 
Animals, and Movie Monsters (and yes, it included Hach-U-Rui); the second 
started with Beasts of Myth & Fantasy and then went on to Prehistoric 
Beasts, Animals, and Movie Monsters. 
   I suspect that your intent, though, is that the creatures should be 
divvied up according to genre -- real-world stuff first, then monsters for 
various types of horror stories, then traditional fantasy creatures from 
around the world, perhaps a separate section on monsters from various 
gaming traditions, maybe some creatures styled after science-fiction 
traditions, dinosaurs, Japanese-style giant monsters, and whatever else 
looks good. 
   If there's a Bestiary on the slate for 5th Edition, I hope it uses that 
list of categories and the many-animals format used in the original 
Bestiary.  That would cram a whole lot of critters into a relatively small 
space. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:41:01 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 82 
 
At 04:27 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>   This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules.  If there have ever been 
>>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I 
>>don't know where it is.  It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in 
>>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going 
>>to hit the wall.  But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be 
>>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event 
>>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast). 
> 
>We use a 0 OCV attack for this sort of thing and only roll the dice if it 
>makes things interesting.  The 0 OCV attack emphasizes the defenders ability 
>to get out of the way over the accuracy of the attack: characters don't 
>normally get hit by stray shots if they're aware of them, walls or telephone 
>poles are much less likely to move out of the way. 
 
   I think this is the way to do it. 
   Now, hopefully, it'll get into the Hero5 rulebook. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:44:06 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 85 
 
At 04:42 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics 
>> of a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed 
>> weapon, comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are. 
> 
>First, there is no such thing as a weapon that requires one and a half 
>hands.  It might seem obvious, but I am just being sure :). 
 
   It's good to be sure of even the apparently obvious. 
   "Hand-and-a-half" is, in the parlance I'm used to anyway, a shorthand 
for a weapon that can be used with either one hand or two. 
 
>There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively.  These are 
>one-handed weapons.  You can do whatever you want with your off hand (the 
>one that isn't used to hold the weapon).  This is frequently used to hold a 
>shield, but can be used for a variety of suprise maneuvers or other tasks. 
> 
>There are weapons that require two hands to wield effectively.  These are 
>two-handed weapons.  Since both hands are occupied with the weapon, you 
>have no free hands with which to do other things (like no throwing sand in 
>your opponent's face), thus a limitation. 
> 
>There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively but can be 
>used with two hands, becoming slightly more effective.  When wielded with 
>two hands, like a "real" two-handed weapon, the off hand is not free, thus 
>a limitation.  Since the off-hand can be made free, it is worth less of a 
>bonus than a two-handed weapon. 
> 
>Or perhaps they can be called two-handed weapons that can be wielded less 
>effectively with one hand.  Because the weapon is sometimes less than fully 
>effective it gets a limitation. 
 
   The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon 
Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.ezy.net from asmodeus@shell.ezy.net server @206.43.209.10 ip 206.43.209.10 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:17:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 88 
 
 
> > By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
> > hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based 
on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice 
nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases) 
 
Okay, after all of this discussion, let's look at the math... 
 
For fun lets take a 30 active point weapon(2d6 KA) and make all 3 
versions... Strength minimum is based on 1/2 active points for the base of 
every weapon. 
 
Real cost for all of these weapons are based on Has STR Min (-1), 
OAF (-1), Independent (-2), STR Min as calculated (0), Melee only weapon 
(0) and either One handed (0), 1.5 Hands (-1/4), or 2 Hands (-1/2) 
 
 
			Used w/1 Hand	Used w/2 Hands	Real Cost 
One handed 2d6 KA = 	STR Min 15	------		6 
1.5 handed 2d6 KA = 	STR Min 15	STR Min 13	5.71 
Two handed 2d6 KA = 	STR Min 20	STR Min 15	5.45 
 
As per the BBB page 205.  Keeping this in mind, buying a 1.5 handed weapon 
does not adversely affect the builder of the weapon.  They would get an 
extra -1/4 limitation for no reason and would infact if they had 18 
strength be able to wield the weapon in 2 hands and get an extra damage 
class out of this weapon. 
 
The fact is that this rule is broken... If the -2 strength were actually 
+2 strength to use it in 1 hand versus using it in 2 hands for the base 
STR min...  That would help the situation and actually make the limitation 
worth something. 
 
When you get down to it, there isn't much in the way of point cost 
reduction that even makes this worth all of the hooplah.(sp?)  There is 
less than a point difference between 1 hand and 2 handed in the scheme of 
this example.  It would require less disads or more active points before 
this -1/4 even matters. 
 
David Majors 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: SteveL1979@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo19.mx.aol.com from stevel1979@aol.com server @imo19.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.41 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:19:52 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Character Formats 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 89 
 
In a message dated 98-06-03 20:00:40 EDT, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes: 
 
<< >  I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of 
the 
 >character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info 
not 
 >listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of 
each 
 >character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that 
 >deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather 
than 
 >in the first column.  But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on 
the 
 >situation 
  
    Both (a) and (b) succeeded.  In particular, (a) worked in that 
 everything had at least a name that gave some sort of cue to the GM as to 
 what sort of description to give it.  It could use a bit of tweaking; for 
 instance, Disadvantages should always have their frequency and intensity 
 listed unless taken at the minimum or maximum levels, or it can be 
 extrapolated from existing information (as is common with Berserk or 
 Reputation), there is a "standard" form of the Disadvantage, or some 
 similar situation exists. >> 
 
  I think that (b) definitely succeeded.  I think (a) only partly succeeded; I 
would prefer to see (1) a box around the sheet, like the old one, to give it a 
little more definition for the eye (so to speak); (2) a column, probably on 
the right-hand side, where the costs of things are listed; it's too hard to 
find the cost of something as is; and (3) that Skills should always be listed 
in strict alphabetical order, not broken up into different categories and 
listed alphabetically in each category (makes you have to look in X places to 
find out if the character has a certain Skill).   
  And I'd certainly agree that there ought to be a uniform way of writing all 
Powers, Disads, etc.; however, that would require Hero to spend a LOT of time 
preparing an elaborate Style Guide, and I'd just as soon see them produce more 
products instead. :) 
 
Steve Long  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:18:01 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 90 
 
Just time for one quick post--so got to make it count :-). 
 
Don't let the title stop the other "hands" discussion--I find it very 
amusing.  But I thought I would start a new thread--since the original 
reason I posted was to get a solution. 
 
As my first post indicated, my inclination was to change 1.5 handed weapons 
to use the listed STR min as the 2 handed requirement and charge +2 STR for 
using the weapon 1 handed.  That would handle it--or you could change to +3 
STR like Michael and Len have suggested.  Either way, the -!/4 limitation 
would be EARNED. 
 
However, this rather irritated me (all out of proportion, I admit), because 
it requires the couple of characters using 1.5 handed weapons in my 
campaign to either increase their STR or switch weapons--And our samurai 
halfling running around with a child's version of a katana shouldn't be any 
stronger than he already is. 
 
The halfling (well, the player) and I talked it over and came up with a 
solution.  We took someone's suggestion (sorry, lost the message) that the 
-1/4 limitation really belongs on the 1 handed weapons and came up with a 
rational for it.  Here goes: 
 
The default for all weapons is that they can be used with 1.5 handed.  With 
2 hands, the weapons takes X less STR (x=2, if you stick to the standard 
rules).  The weapon gets NO limitation for this. 
 
2 handed weapons get the -1/2 limit, just like they always have.  Their 
wielders still cannot use shields, and they also lose out on the possiblity 
of saving X STR on the minimun when the sweat beads start appearing (END 
runs low :-) 
 
1 handed weapons get a -1/4 limit for losing the option to use the weapon 
1.5 handed at -X STR.  Many blades have a hilt too small to accommodate 2 
hands.  A lot of 1 handed swung weapons (smaller axes, maces, flails, etc.) 
qualify for the 1 handed limit also.  The reason is that they derive a 
great deal of their power from the reach and leverage of the blow.  As 
anyone who has played tennis knows, the reach and STR of a 1 handed versus 
a 2 handed grip is significant--especially for an object in about the 2 to 
4 foot range.  So anyone can grip a 1 handed axe two handed if they want 
to, but they lose a damage class.  That leaves clubs, some throwing 
polearms, whips, and lances left of the original 1 handed weapons.  Whips 
and lances get the -1/4 limit because of the method of use.  (Silly knight: 
 "If I sit sidesaddle, can I hold the lance 2 handed and charge?")   
Arguably, more of the polearms could be 1.5 handed.  But I'd rule that any 
polearm short enough to throw is going to be too short to use 2 handed.  
("Sure, you can hold that javelin 2 handed, but the point won't move more 
than a foot from your head.  If the villian breathes on you, you can get 
the -2 STR minimum")   Ditto for smaller clubs and weapons of opportunity. 
 
That doesn't handle the issue of halflings, gnomes, and children getting to 
use some 1 handed weapons 1.5 handed.  But I figure that all cancels out in 
the end, since they also lose a lot of the bigger weapons. 
 
The big advantage of this scheme is that it leaves the relative mechanics 
in place.  Anyone satisfied with the current charts can keep them.  Even 
Michael and Len could use this with their changed STR minimums.  The only 
thing that changes is my big magical weapon construction chart.  <Sigh>  I 
knew I should have used a spreadsheet. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com ip 206.214.98.10 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:18:57 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 91 
 
David Majors wrote: 
>  
> > > By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
> > > hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
>  
> The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based 
> on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice 
> nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases) 
 
I've been reading this discusion for some reason and am astounded by how many 
people keep yelling at Rat for his bit of logic.  (I think someone other 
than David was going postal over this, but David's post was the last in the 
thread.) 
 
I'm pretty indifferent to whether 1.5 is a disad or not.  It entices you to 
buy 
a shield and then not use it, but in the games where it's in play you rarely 
are paying points for your equipment. 
 
To me, it's a hold over from an earlier edition that got tweaked in a later 
edition. (Just a guess.)  Personally, I'm chucking the weapon tables and 
doing something different for when I do my next Fantasy Hero. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:44:40 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
CC: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 92 
 
 
 
Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
 
> > Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use 
> > of NRM.  A man-sized target at 10 miles?  Sure -- the rules allow 
> > it.  But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how 
> > your character can pull something like that off. 
> 
> Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with 
> a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering 
> that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!) 
 
Way off their.  While perception minuses grow linearly, the range grows 
geometrically.  So the actual perception minus for 10 mile (roughly 16 
kilometer or 8000 hexes) is only a -22 while fairly large and all but 
prohibitive on 3D6 for anyone with out technological assistance or super powers 
it is not even close to the -2000 you claim.  If it was the New Jersey (or any 
other capitol naval vessal for the matter) would never hit anything they shot 
at. 
 
> , and 
> he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and 
> enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him! 
> 
> If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because 
> he has no idea where to shoot. 
> 
> Jeff Reid 
> Morfhis@compuserve.com 
> http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:15:53 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 93 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> <clip> 
>    Not a problem.  As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as 
> senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located.  They can be used as 
> very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle, with no 
> need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it).  If a third 
> party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the 
> base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third party 
> would be able to use the information for direct targeting -- extrapolation 
> would be needed, either by hand or computer. 
 
As I asked else where, how do AWACS target missiles in Rihad while it is over 
Iraq?  The missiles are not part of the vehicle yet it can target them them with 
extreme accuracy.  Here is a third party doing almost exactly what you say it 
can't.  The missiles may part of the base (IMO they are independant vehicles, 
since they can be packed up and moved elswhere) but a third party (the AWACS) 
feeds targetting information to the missile gunners who then fire the missile.  If 
need be the AWACS can even take over guidence of the missile. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48 
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:45:53 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 95 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> > At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> > <clip> 
> >    Not a problem.  As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as 
> > senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located.  They can be 
used as 
> > very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle, 
with no 
> > need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it).  If a 
third 
> > party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the 
> > base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third 
party 
> > would be able to use the information for direct targeting -- 
extrapolation 
> > would be needed, either by hand or computer. 
>  
> As I asked else where, how do AWACS target missiles in Rihad while it is 
over 
> Iraq?  The missiles are not part of the vehicle yet it can target them 
them with 
> extreme accuracy.  Here is a third party doing almost exactly what you 
say it 
> can't.  The missiles may part of the base (IMO they are independant 
vehicles, 
> since they can be packed up and moved elswhere) but a third party (the 
AWACS) 
> feeds targetting information to the missile gunners who then fire the 
missile.  If 
> need be the AWACS can even take over guidence of the missile. 
 
Radar UBO,  
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:09:25 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Formats 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 96 
 
At 08:19 PM 6/3/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote: 
>  I think that (b) definitely succeeded.  I think (a) only partly 
succeeded; I 
>would prefer to see (1) a box around the sheet, like the old one, to give 
it a 
>little more definition for the eye (so to speak); (2) a column, probably on 
>the right-hand side, where the costs of things are listed; it's too hard to 
>find the cost of something as is; and (3) that Skills should always be listed 
>in strict alphabetical order, not broken up into different categories and 
>listed alphabetically in each category (makes you have to look in X places to 
>find out if the character has a certain Skill).   
 
   (1) Actually the change in format from text to tabbed number/text 
columns is plenty of format definition for me, but I don't really feel 
strongly about it one way or the other. 
   (2) Absolutely.  This change is the one big Minus on the current format, 
compared to the old one. 
   (3) I disagree on this one.  Grouping the Skills by category has made it 
a lot easier for me to "visualize" how good a character at a general 
endeavor, as well as find what would be an appropriate Complementary Skill 
for a task (since it gives me a short list of related Skills to go through 
instead of a long list of every Skill the character has).  Additionally, 
relating them by type helps me get a handle on exactly how the character 
goes about things; there's a fine, subtle difference between how a street 
urchin uses Stealth, and how a ninja uses Stealth.  All that (especially 
the part about Complementary Skills) is worth the extra second or so it 
takes for me to find a particular Skill on two to four sub-lists. 
 
>  And I'd certainly agree that there ought to be a uniform way of writing all 
>Powers, Disads, etc.; however, that would require Hero to spend a LOT of time 
>preparing an elaborate Style Guide, and I'd just as soon see them produce 
more 
>products instead. :) 
 
   All I'm asking for is for a couple of points added to the formatting 
guidelines they already have.  Showing the build of Psychological 
Limitations in particular would be helpful, since the varying intensities 
have different mechanics for overcoming. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.37 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:33:51 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
CC: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 97 
 
 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> <clip> 
> Thus, in every campaign in which I have played or GMed, TV is not 
> reasonable for targeting any type of attack, but a targeting HUD is.  A 
> base may be equipped with high-resolution surveillance cameras that are 
> designed to allow the inhabitants to target their indirect attacks. 
> Without this capability, defending a base becomes *very* tough. 
> 
 
Next Question.  What about the camera and HUD systems being mounted on the next 
generation assault rifles.  The system comes with a jacket the contains a complete 
computer system with a 12 hour (I think) battery life.  The assault rifle itself 
has a camera mount that feeds into the computer and to the soldiers helmet mounted 
HUD as well as a laser sigh, optional granade launcer and bayenette mount.  In 
tests the system has proven very successful in allowing soldier to fire their 
weapons with relative accuracy from complete cover.  With men literally shooting 
around walls, through doors, windoes, etc.  The report I saw said that deployment 
would be started with in a couple years (in militray terms that's about 10 years). 
The system has been tested with IR, UV, and termal imaging sights (N-Ray vision, 
stopped by intense heat) and has supposedly proven quite successful.  Once agian we 
see weapons being targetted through TV camera.  Admittedly military cameras and not 
comerial ones.  Is it that the military buys its cameras with a targetting sence 
built in while commercial networks wouldn't spend the extra money (points) on 
cameras with a targetting sence. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:10:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 94 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote:   
 
(At least, I think it was Bob ... I never received the post where the  
statement was made, so I had to infer the attribution from a later post  
that quoted it.) 
 
> Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target 
 
Where is this rule stated in the BBB?  I am not particularly interested  
in this connection with genre books to some genre I am not running, nor  
in the Ultimate books, which are by their own admission highly optional,  
and which not infrequently contravene the basic rules.  This is a basic  
rules question and should be resolvable using the rules in the BBB. 
 
> an attack.  As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to 
> gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind" 
> attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms). 
 
Agreed to?  Pardon me, but I have commented more than once on this  
thread.  In at least two separate posts I have called this position  
nonsense, and have quoted HSR text to prove that it is nonsense.  To wit: 
 
	Clairsentience: 
	With this Standard Power, one of a character's senses (usually 
	normal sight) works at a distance.  It is as if that character 
	were standing some distance away from his current position. 
 
	* * *  
 
	A character with Clairsentience should think of the perception 
	point as a spot he can put anywhere within the range of his  
	Clairsentience; he can then see (or hear, or smell, etc.) 
	anything near the perception point just as if he were standing 
	there himself. 
 
This seems to leave no option.  If a sense is discriminatory, tracking,  
telescopic or targeting, then it retains precisely those features when  
used via Clairsentience, since it would have those features if the  
character owning the sense were standing there.  This is, of course,  
subject to veto if the special effect is wrong (as it would be for  
mundane TV).  Of course, in this case, the fact that a TV receiver is  
paid for with money, not points, and that the transmitter is paid for  
with someone else's money, militates in favor of the restrictive  
interpretation. 
 
I have played in a number of Champions campaigns, and have *never* seen  
one that did not allow targeting of any attack via Clairsentience,  
subject to reasonability of the special effect, and to the ability of the  
attack to reach the target (i.e. mental or indirect).  If it was the  
intent of the designers to so restrict Clairvoyance, or just mental  
powers via Clairvoyance, then this should have been stated in the basic  
rules, and should be made crystal clear in 5ed. 
 
Thus, in every campaign in which I have played or GMed, TV is not  
reasonable for targeting any type of attack, but a targeting HUD is.  A  
base may be equipped with high-resolution surveillance cameras that are  
designed to allow the inhabitants to target their indirect attacks.   
Without this capability, defending a base becomes *very* tough. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:08:13 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 98 
 
 
> > 	How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
> 
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
> hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
	But it doesn't take that ability away.  It just makes it possible 
to use it two handed at the player's option, say if he looses his shield. 
At that point, he gets to use the weapon at a lower STR min.  Meanwhile, 
someone with a one handed weapon who looses his shield is just screwed. 
 
	The only real rationale I can see is if all weapons have the 
option to be used two handed.  Weapons that are "one handed" get a -5 to 
STR min if used two handed, while hand-and-a-half weapons get the book 
value of -2 or -3, whichever it is. 
 
	This seems more reasonable.  As I earlier pointed out, you are 
otherwise taking that 2*END -1/2 lim and allowing, for -1/4, "sometimes 
costs 2*END at player's option." 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
Cc: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:40:59 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 100 
 
> From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net] 
>  
>  
>  
> Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> > From: Ross Rannells 
> > > 
> > > Filksinger wrote: 
> > > 
> > <snip> 
> > > 
> > >   So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way.  The 
> > > way it appears to 
> > > me is that the location of the target needs to be known.  Whether the location 
> > > is thruough 
> > > seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan).  Either 
> > > way once the 
> > > location is known, other mental powers may be used. 
> > 
> > That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that 
> > interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall  
> would be "line 
> > of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far. 
> > 
>  
> I believe it to be true, so we are at an impass.  Can we agree to disagree? 
Probably best.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:03 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 99 
 
> From: aregalad@miami.edu [mailto:aregalad@miami.edu] 
> 
> 
> Maybe the targeting system is defined as a computer built into a power 
> suit that automatically targets opponents once the character enters into 
> target. Although the battle suit still benifits from the character being 
> able to direct the attack, the blinded character says "Nuts! I'm blinded! 
> Computer, fire rockets at target number 3! God, I hope that hits!" 
 
In such a case, the suit would either have a Computer, be purchased as Combat Levels, 
and/or have  or give the user a type of Targeting Sense. This still leaves open the 
question, though it may become, "How do you determine how well the computer can keep track 
of a hex location in relation to itself when blind", as opposed to "How do you determine 
how well the character can...." 
 
> OR, maybe the "guidance system" is an enchanted weapon. All I'm really 
> saying is that it all depends on special effect, so I'm not sure that 
> you can have a meaningful discussion aobut what "makes sense" without 
> talking about a specific special effect. I could be wrong, but those are 
> my $.02 for what they are worth. 
 
In my opinion, a Power which enhances the "targeting" of itself so far requires additional 
abilities beyond NRM. I am trying to determine what people think these additional 
abilities should be. 
 
> Dragonfly 
> 
 
Filksinger 
> 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:12 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 101 
 
> From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net] 
> 
<snip> 
> 
> A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of 
> intellighence to 
> guide it.  I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your 
> language, have 
> some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have 
> knowledge of the 
> area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its 
> warhead.  If the computer 
> has an ego or not may also come into play.  I've found that the best way to 
> build such attacks is 
> either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM.  With the 
> automaton/vehicle you 
> also are freed from that maximum range rule also. 
> 
 
Agreed. However, the idea was to determine how hard it was to select a location for the 
weapon to strike, at a range, when blinded. 
 
For example, suppose I had Ego Attack. My GM rules that, if I cannot see the target, the 
Ego Attack must be targeted using the rules for firing blind used under Darkness, 
Invisibility, and Flash. I say, "Great! I have a 0 ECV to attack the villain who is in our 
base in Seattle, even though I am in Antarctica!" 
 
The GM, realizing what he has done, says, "Wait. Additionally, you have to tell me which 
hex, in relation to you, that you are firing at, just like in some forms of firing blind 
in 3rd Edition." The GM figures that this will put the player back a bit, and avoid the 
problem. 
 
The player then responds, "How do I do that? Do I declare that I am attacking a target 
9,476 miles, 326 feet from me, twelve degrees west of true north? How do you know if that 
is on target?" 
 
Now, does the GM get out large maps and various navigational aids and determine the exact 
figures(probably impossible), or does he create a mechanism for saying, "OK, make a PER 
roll at -5, modified by range, with an AK roll also modified by range as a Complimentary 
roll"? If he does the second, what should the mechanism be? The above would work, but is 
it the best solution? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:58 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 103 
 
> From: Jeff M. Reid 
> 
> 
> > Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use 
> > of NRM.  A man-sized target at 10 miles?  Sure -- the rules allow 
> > it.  But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how 
> > your character can pull something like that off. 
> 
> Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with 
> a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering 
> that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!), and 
> he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and 
> enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him! 
 
Agreed. That's what NRM is. 
 
> If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because 
> he has no idea where to shoot. 
> 
 
What if he is in his bedroom and wants to shoot the guy at his front door with his 
eyebeams? Little chance, maybe, but no chance, just because he is firing blind? Worse yet, 
the rules say he attacks with a 0 OCV. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:07 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 104 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> Filksinger  writes: 
> 
> > So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000 
> > miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man 
> > only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target? 
> 
> If the same power 
 
OK. 
 
>with the same target 
 
OK. 
 
>and the same range, yes. 
 
Uh, I just said a _different_ range. 
 
>  The 
> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it. 
> 
> > Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in 
> > relation to him first? 
> 
> This has no bearing on NRM. 
 
You don't need to have even an approximate location for your target in order to hit him 
using NRM? 
 
> > If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to 
> > the power-user when the hex is farther away? 
> 
> Again, this has nothing to do with NRM.  Ditto for the rest of your 
> "points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the 
> power. 
 
OK, fine. Now, my original post asked how you would model those "issues". You have made it 
clear that you wouldn't model them by tampering in any way with NRM, but you haven't 
answered the original question - how should they be modeled? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Incompetent Players 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:39 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 102 
 
> From: aregalad@miami.edu 
> 
> No need to punish the character for the players actions. :] 
> (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent). 
> 
 
Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in six games 
(short campaign) he was the only one whose character died. 
 
And he died five times. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Weapon Hands Questions 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:43 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 105 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> Tim R Gilberg writes: 
> 
> > 	How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability 
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage? 
> 
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other 
> hand, Tim.  it does not add to it, it takes away from it. 
 
One-handed weapon 
	Can be used one handed. 
 
Hand and a half weapon 
	Can be used one handed 
		AND 
	Can be used two handed. 
 
The second has abilities the first lacks, _and_ all of the abilities of the first. If I 
bought a power with a Limitation that I could _ignore at will_, would you allow me even 
a -1/4 on that Limitation? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:58 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 106 
 
> From: Robert A. West 
> 
> 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> (At least, I think it was Bob ... I never received the post where the 
> statement was made, so I had to infer the attribution from a later post 
> that quoted it.) 
> 
> > Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target 
> 
> Where is this rule stated in the BBB?  I am not particularly interested 
> in this connection with genre books to some genre I am not running, nor 
> in the Ultimate books, which are by their own admission highly optional, 
> and which not infrequently contravene the basic rules.  This is a basic 
> rules question and should be resolvable using the rules in the BBB. 
 
It doesn't. The only use of Clairvoyance that I can recall in any book to which this 
question is relevant was in the Mystic Masters book, and it stated that you _could_ target 
Powers via Clairvoyance. 
 
Since the BBB does not mention this limitation, and does specify that the sense in use is 
_identical_ to being there, I would rule that it _is_ Targeting, if the sense in question 
is Targeting. 
 
Does someone know of an example in one of the books that indicates that it is _not_ 
possible to use Clairsentience in this way? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:43:28 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 107 
 
> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin 
> 
> 
> People talking about hitting man-sized targets at a distance of 10 miles 
> appear to be overlooking the ultimate range modifier:  the curvature of the 
> Earth.  In most cases, a target that small is going to vanish beyond the 
> horizon and no amount of telescopic vision (or simiar SFX for cancelling 
> range modifiers) is going to allow you to see it. 
 
Actually, we weren't overlooking it. The implicit assumption, made early in a different 
thread, was Powers that didn't care what was in the way, such as Mental Powers. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:43:23 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 112 
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> Well, if you're talking about House Rules here, then of course, anything 
> goes. 
>  
> However, the Good Book says: 
> 1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of  
>    explosions and area effect attacks. 
 
Also, it explicitly states that you can Abort to a Dive for Cover. 
 
> 2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive  
>    Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character 
>    can't normally abort to a movement action. 
 
Key word being "normally", since of course the Dive for Cover mechanic 
is there to provide a way for characters to do just that, with some 
restrictions. 
 
It also states "A character can only Dive for Cover up to half his 
maximum movement". Not half his Running, or half his Leaping distance, 
but half of his maximum movement... that is to say, half of your 
maximum (Running or Flight or Teleport or Swinging or whatever). 
 
> Here are my observations: 
> 3. Since you can't "normally" use a movement action in an abort, then 
>    logically, you can't teleport 5" straight up (to link this tirade 
>    to a previous post).  I'm not exactly sure what they meant by  
>    "normally", which obviously leads to some leeway. 
 
I can only read "normally" as meaning "other than the exception given 
in the rules"... that being the Dive for Cover maneuver. 
 
> 4. I wouldn't apply the "no movement" ban to Dive for Cover, since 
>    by its very nature, Dive for Cover is a movement.  In particular, 
>    it's a jump, which is covered under the strength rules. 
 
Nowhere is it stated to be a jump. 
 
> 5. Interestingly enough, the Dive for Cover rules say nothing about 
>    the character winding up prone.  I think that everybody has just 
>    interpreted it that way. 
 
I haven't. It depends on what form of movement you're using to get to 
the target hex. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out5.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out5.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.245 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:49:46 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 109 
 
On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> >>  But that is an example.  You would only include it in dinosaurs and 
> >> Godzilla.  Even dragons are too small for line attack claws. 
> > 
> >Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs? 
>  
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur. 
 
Yes, but you said "dinosaurs and Godzilla". 
 
> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall. 
 
Comparable to the heavyweights among dragons, then, but not comparable 
to the very biggest of them. Jormungand could probably swallow him in one 
gulp. 
 
> Dragons are usually tens of feet long.  (Based on my extensive AD&D 
> background. :-) 
 
AD&D dragons are apparently wimps.:) 
 
> Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't think there were any 
> long armed dinosaurs. 
 
I don't see the "typical" dragon as being smaller than, say, a brontosaurus. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:57:50 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 108 
 
On Sun, 31 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > > The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash.  The 
> > > PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the 
> > > "Little misunderstanding in Langley," 
> >  
> > The DCI had authority here? Man, WotC really is buying out everybody!:) 
>  
> ??? 
>  
> DCI = Director of Central Intelligence.  It is a common but ignorant  
> error for reporters to refer to the office as "Director of the CIA".  The  
> Director is responsible for coordinating the efforts of the various  
> intelligence agencies: CIA, DIA, DEA Intelligence, FBI Counter-  
> intelligence, etc. 
>  
> Obviously, I am missing something? 
 
DCI also = Duelists' Convocation International, the branch of WotC which 
governs sanctioned tournaments for Magic: the Gathering. The Director of 
Central Intelligence I'd never heard of, hence my joke. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out1.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out1.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.252 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:00:40 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 110 
 
On Sun, 31 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> While I agree that I would like the Killing Attack to do less STUN on  
> expectation than a Normal attack, I find that the difference above fails  
> to galvanize me. 
 
The thing is, even if they were exactly the same in terms of delivering 
STUN damage, it would still be a fairly big problem. The fact that the 
Killing Attack is only slightly better in some circumstances fails to 
mollify me. 
 
> The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count double 
> against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem. 
 
Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out5.ibm.net from tbarrie@ibm.net server @out5.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.245 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:05:25 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 111 
 
On 3 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a 
> > disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed? 
>  
> The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed.  A 1.5-hand 
> weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed 
> weapons cannot be wielded with two hands).  With two hands it is a more 
> effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers).  Thus the 
> limitation. 
 
Umm. So if I have a plain Energy Blast, and wanted to apply the Limitation 
"0 DCV Concentration when used as an Area Effect", you'd allow this as a 
Limitation? After all, 0 DCV is more severe of a drawback than just not 
having a shield. 
 
A weapon with the "1.5-handed" Modifier can do everything the unmodified 
case can, and do it exactly as well. So why should it get a cost break? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 06:29:15 -0700 
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 113 
 
At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    The question to ask is:  Using *only* the information provided by the 
>> system, can I reliably aim the weapon? 
>>    Let's go back to an earlier example which you never addressed: 
>>    You're in the living room of a house in a neighborhood you've never been 
>> in, with an active TV and a sniper rifle. 
>>    The curtains are closed. 
>>    On the front lawn is a marksman's target. 
>>    Also on the front lawn is a camcorder on a tripod, pointing at the 
>> target and hooked into the TV in the living room. 
>>    So you know that the target is in the front lawn, and can see it on 
the TV. 
>>    Could you shoot the target as well as if the curtain were open? 
> 
>I answered this once, but since you asked I'll answer it a second time. 
How well 
>I can shoot it is not the question it's whether I can take the shot or 
not.  I can 
>take the shot, I have at best a very slight chance of hitting the target 
but I can 
>still take the shot.  Is that not what firing blind is? 
 
   Absolutely!  This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which 
is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting 
Sense.  The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental 
Powers, and for the same reasons. 
 
>>    As to the Radar and Sonar, these are not Clairvoyance systems.  These 
>> are Radar and Sonar systems, for the base or vehicle being operated.  A 
>> gunner from the base or vehicle could easily use these systems for 
>> targeting purposes.  This does become a Targeting Sense in the Hero sense 
>> of the word. 
> 
>Then what about an AWACS systems targetting missiles fired from a base in 
Rihad, 
>Suadi Arabia.  Are you saying that the plane and the base are part of the 
same 
>system?  One other question, where does it say in the Clairsentience rules 
that it 
>cannot be used for Radar or Sonar? 
> 
>>    On the other hand, if someone a distance away from the base or vehicle 
>> were to "tap in" to the signal and see what the radar or sonar system were 
>> showing those inside the base or vehicle, he couldn't use that for simple 
>> targeting; triangulation and other math would be required.  This becomes a 
>> non-Targeting Sense for purposes of Hero mechanics. 
> 
>So how did the AWACS target and fire missiles in Rihad during the gulf war? 
 
   With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using 
that term rather broadly).  It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done 
by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know.  But I simply 
cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen 
from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons 
from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar 
system. 
 
>>    I'm also increasingly of a suspicion that the HUD, as you've now 
>> described it, is actually a Normal Sight system for a vehicle rather than a 
>> Clairvoyance system (which would generally require that the point of 
>> perspective be independent of the person viewing it). 
> 
>The A-10 has no vision system.  The pilots had to use the missiles vision 
sytem to 
>fly and target by.  If the HUD is a vision system for a vehicle then is it a 
>vision system for a Colt .45 when mounted on one? 
 
   No, it's simply Skill Levels.  A Colt .45 is not its own entity in the 
Hero System.  It has no Characteristics.  A Vehicle has Characteristics, 
and so it can have its own sensory systems.  (And BTW a guided missile, 
whether guided by a computer or by a human controller, and be written up as 
a Vehicle.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:17:32 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Torg cards in HERO? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id KAA15185 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 115 
 
Message text written by aregalad@miami.edu 
>Heh, I agree with you 100%. HAVE you ever experimented with using the 
cards (or some variation) in HERO?< 
 
Actually, I haven't used the (brilliant! -grin-) Torg cards much at all, 
because Torg never got much of a foothold with my group.  I haven't even 
looked at the game in years, but I will probably take another look at those 
cards now that you've brought them back up to the surface of my brain. 
 
For those unfamiliar with the Torg cards, essentially each card gave a 
suggestion as to what action to take...an example would be "Trick", which 
could be throwing sand in the opponent's eyes or whatever.  If you used the 
suggestion, you got some kind of award (maybe a bonus to your die roll, I 
can't remember), but you were never required to do as the card suggested.  
Anyway, there were 5 or 6 major options such as "Trick" (I think another 
was "Talk"), and you had to come up with your own variation of that option 
to fit the scene.  I can't remember how players accumulated cards, but I 
think it was possible for a player to have a "hand" of cards at the same 
time and he was free to play whichever he liked.  Anyway, I'm being real 
vague here (I definitely need to take another look at these cards), but it 
was a really innovative way to get players to do lots of other things in 
combat besides "attack" or "defend".  Some might argue that a "good 
role-player" doesn't need such a gimmick, but I have *never* seen a 
role-player be as innovative in combat as these cards could provide, and 
I'm sure I've gamed with at least one "good role-player" over the years. 
 
Anyway, perhaps all that would be needed to use these cards in HERO would 
be to change the "award" for using the suggestion into something 
HERO-applicable, like bonuses to OCV or whatever.  Or you could simplify it 
and not have players keep hands of cards at the ready.  Instead, just have 
a special die (different color, or something) where 1 = Trick, 2 = Talk, 
and so on....just roll this die at the beginning of each player's phase to 
see what the "suggested action" is--since the player is not required to 
follow this die roll, it would not get in the way of any pre-determined 
strategy they had come up with. 
 
If anyone is at all intrigued by this card system, I'd be happy to refresh 
my memory on them and then post some more accurate, better detailed 
information on them. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:17:37 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id KAA15186 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 114 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Losing track of his environment is just SFX.  What happened in game 
terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something 
that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then 
trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn 
Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall. 
(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)< 
 
Skill levels in Flight?  Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels 
to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be? 
 
I had a villain who *almost* went splat against the side of a 
building....he decelerated and turned as quick as he could, and ended up 
flying parallel to the wall in the adjacent hex...whew!  I don't think I've 
ever had an actual "splat" episode though. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4 
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:54:27 -0500 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
At 11:57 AM 6/4/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed. 
>But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about 
>STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage).  But, I seriously doubt 
>a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to 
>effectively use a halberd with one hand. 
 
It's hard for me not to think that this doubt is primarily rooted in the 
fact that it's hard to find test subjects with 21+ STR to attempt such usage 
in the first place. :] 
 
>Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble 
>arises.  It's unbalanced and clumsy. 
 
I've tried it ... it is a little clumsy, but I'd just as easily attribute 
that to my own weak arm and the inherent -3 OCV from me being an untrained 
combatant. Specifically, it feels LESS unbalanced and clumsy to me than the 
one-handed (museum replica) broadswords a friend of mine owns -- given six 
months to train, I think I'd handle the broomstick BETTER. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail-gw3.pacbell.net from flashbak@pacbell.net server @mail-gw3.pacbell.net ip 206.13.28.55 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:18:15 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
To: Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: A really bizarre concept. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 116 
 
    I just finished reading a pretty interesting couple of books. Yes, 
they are gimmicks, but they seem to deserve honorable mention. Both 
books are connected, and listed in order. 
 
Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Second Contact 
 
    This is the Marvel Comics special one shot comic book. The plot is 
sort of weak, but it provides a good piece of history for the second 
book I illustrate below. It is worth getting just based on that. 
 
Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Planet X 
 
    This is a full blown paperback novel by Michael Jan Friedman. I 
bought it more as a curiousity piece than out of any form of 
seriousness. Well, I just finished reading it. It was great! An 
incredible book. I honestly loved it. It had a very good storyline. And 
was was well worth my money. 
 
 
    Now comes the hook into the topics of the lists I am sending this 
to: 
 
    I know that several people have done actual superhero games based in 
the Star Trek background. Several people from these lists. But I have 
not heard anyone tryong to do the type of crossover that was done in the 
books I have spotlighted above. Star Trek is a pure science fiction 
environment. X-Men are pure superhero. If any game systems could pull 
such a similar thing off, it should be The Hero System and Fuzion. 
 
    My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar 
crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And 
suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements 
actually work together effectively. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:23:21 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:24 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   Losing track of his environment is just SFX.  What happened in game 
>terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something 
>that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then 
>trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn 
>Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall. 
>(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)< 
> 
>Skill levels in Flight?  Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels 
>to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be? 
 
   Apparently so (HSR, page 143, last paragraph, last sentence). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:40:15 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Gadget Belts 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 117 
 
What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility 
belt'?   
 
Should it be bought as a gadget pool? 
A Mulitpower? 
Or each item seperatly? 
 
If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the 
Mulitpower pool itself?  Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an 
OAF lim on each slot? 
 
Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston 
and Steve Long).  You thoughts would be most welcome. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:57:28 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 119 
 
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 01:01 AM 6/3/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very 
> >unrealistic and silly.  As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for 
> >a halberd is way to high. 
>  
> For one or two handed use? The point was that 'obscene minima' would be for 
> one-handed use; is a 13 STR minima for two-handed (i.e. "normal") use too 
> high? Or an 8? (I.e. if 2-handed use altered effective STR by 5 or 10 points). 
 
Here are our revised stats for the halberd (from my gaming group). 
 
Halberd, Long Poleaxe 
	Axe Head: +0 OCV, 2d6AP, +0 STUN, STR Min 12 (2-handed), Long weapon, 
		+1" range 
	Shaft: +0 OCV, (4d6) all others the same. 
 
Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed. 
But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about 
STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage).  But, I seriously doubt 
a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to 
effectively use a halberd with one hand.  The weapon is usually 7' or more 
in length.  I doublt one will be able to get the proper leverage with one 
hand to do any damage at all.  You could thrust with it yes (treat it like 
big AP spear), but cutting would be nigh-impossible. 
 
Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble 
arises.  It's unbalanced and clumsy. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.136 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:50:57 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id MAA20866 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 120 
 
Message text written by Jason Sullivan 
>The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have 
both the deck and the game itself. 
        There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or 
something similar to it) to HERO.< 
 
Oops, I'm not familiar with Master Book.  What sort of RPG is it?  A 
generic system? 
 
What was the result of the thread on converting the Action Deck to HERO?  
Is it a feasible idea? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:56:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 118 
 
 
	West End Games revised the concept of 'Action Cards' in 
_Master Book_.  In fact, when West End Games discontinued _Torg_ (and, I 
believe, sold the rights of the game), in the final supplement, trhey 
included rules to transfer characters to _Master Book_. 
	I believe _ShatterZone_ (also by WEG) was another game system that 
used Action Cards. 
	The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have 
both the deck and the game itself. 
	There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or 
something similar to it) to HERO. 
 
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+- 
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."  
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6.  
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @clients.relia.net ip 207.173.156.9 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:15:50 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 121 
 
Darrin Kelley wrote: 
 
>     My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar 
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And 
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements 
> actually work together effectively. 
 
Heh, That's my career as a GM 8) 
 
My FH games has almost all of the PCs begin from some earth related 
timeline. The team has consisted of: 
Gnome 
Elf 
Cyberpunk (street samurai) 
Old West Doctor 
Super Hero (Ma with small energy powers) 
A Bond/McGyver type 
Jedi Knight 
Cthulian Investigator 
Star Hero (Mobile infantry Armor) 
Giant 
 
 
I've also ran a Star Trek meets Star Wars thing... 
 
 
 
On the web I ran into a pair of stories (don't remember the URL) that 
was an ST:TNG, X-files, Highlander Crossover. Rather interesting. 
 
-Mhoram 
--  
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, 
   for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien 
No matter how subtle the Wizard, 
   a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S 
R Brust 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:00:17 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 123 
 
 
>  
> What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility 
> belt'?   
>  
> Should it be bought as a gadget pool? 
> A Mulitpower? 
> Or each item seperatly? 
>  
> If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the 
> Mulitpower pool itself?  Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an 
> OAF lim on each slot? 
>  
> Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston 
> and Steve Long).  You thoughts would be most welcome. 
 
 
I've got mixed thoughts on this.  I suppose a gadget pool is 'more correct'. 
But then, unless the character actually is a gadgeteer, the pools got to 
be big enough to handle all of the gadgets a character might carry,  
which seems overly expensive.  Of course, your skill roll could be defined 
as 'selecting appropriate gadget' ahead of time,  so your pool is actually 
a matter of "I had the foresight to bring this with me" rather than "I will 
now reconfigure these components into the perfect device for the situation." 
 
A small gadget pool would be perfect however for the situation when you're 
hunting down the psychopath pyrokinetic and decide to invest in some  
fireproofing.  
 
OTOH, multipowers seem too cheap.  Plus, I believe that in the utility belt  
situations there's no real justification for all of the powers to be  
running off the same point pool.  
 
I suppose that if you did go with a multipower for Batman's utility belt, 
an OIF Utility Belt limitation on the whole multipower would make sense, 
as would an OAF on the individual slots.   
 
How about buying utility belts as perks ?   
"Character may carry normal gadgets at no point cost". 
"Character may carry X type of gadgets at no point cost".   Where 'X' might 
be "miniaturized versions of normal gadgets" OR "anything from this list 
of equipment." 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:07:45 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 122 
 
 
> > The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count double 
> > against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem. 
> 
> Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested? 
 
	Yup.  Extensively.  I actually thought that this was how it was 
supposed to be done, with def for the STUN of a KA being the total of the 
total defense and the resistent defense.  I'd say it worked rather well, 
because I noticed no real balance problems.  And people that wanted a 
heavy STUN attack would take an EB, not a KA.  The KA was for Killing. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pop.sdslink.com from dfair@pop.sdslink.com server @www.sdslink.com ip 207.42.118.130 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:40:40 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.sdslink.com 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
cc: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> 
>> > The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count  
double 
>> > against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem. 
>> 
>> Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested? 
> 
>	Yup.  Extensively.  I actually thought that this was how it was 
>supposed to be done, with def for the STUN of a KA being the total of the 
>total defense and the resistent defense.  I'd say it worked rather well, 
>because I noticed no real balance problems.  And people that wanted a 
>heavy STUN attack would take an EB, not a KA.  The KA was for Killing. 
> 
Forgive me for not under standing but I am unclear as to what was the def  
you used. 
 
For Example: 
 
El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR) 
 
are you saying that he would have 
 
10 pd vs reqular attacks, 
 5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and 
15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack 
 
or something else? 
 
It seems like a rather interesting idea... 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo orac.early.com from redlion@early.com server root@orac.early.com ip 204.170.83.2 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:02:34 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Since this debate is proving so much fun, let me add a few more 
ingredients to the stew. 
 
A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a 
typical long sword.  By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3 
feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to 
accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches.  The GM treats 
this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, so it's a 
one-handed weapon with a 13 STR Min, does 1d6+1 damage, and has a +1 
OCV (these are not the values I personally would assign to her long 
sword, but no matter).  The STR Min is convenient, since she has a 13 
STR.  She's a two-fisted fighter--she commonly wields a dagger in her 
left hand. 
 
The rogue is confronted by a brawny knight in full plate armor, 
swinging a two-handed great sword.  Fearing she is overmatched, she 
throws her dagger at the knight hurriedly and awkwardly to distract 
him for a second--the dagger bounces harmlessly off his breast 
plate--and grips her sword with both hands, overlapping her left hand 
over her right.  It's not a comfortable grip, but she's not worried 
about comfort at the moment.  She believes she is trading a 
questionable defensive edge ("Try to parry a great sword with a 
dagger?  What am I, stupid?") for other advantages. 
 
She does this, reasoning that by holding the blade so, her two arms 
together will grant greater impetus to her blows, which she will need 
if she's to have a prayer of wounding the heavily armored knight.  
She further reasons that the firmer grip will give her greater 
strength should she attempt a Weapon Bind or Disarm maneuver (she 
knows her foe is much stronger than she, and is an expert swordsman, 
so she figures she'll attempt either maneuver only if she sees the 
knight's strength flagging, say by his being wounded in one arm.)  
She also does this to lessen her chance of being Disarmed by the 
heavier blade.  Her player knows that the GM uses the two-handed 
Disarming rule on page 74 of Ninja Hero, which states that a 
character holding a weapon in both hands gets an extra +5 STR for 
holding on. 
 
How to handle this event?  The GM might rule by fiat:  "No that's a 
one-handed weapon, not a one-and-a-half handed sword.  Since your 
long sword doesn't have the -1/4 Limitation:  One-and-a-Half Handed, 
you cannot gain those advantages you want for your overlapping, 
two-handed grip.  If you want those advantages, you should have taken 
the Limitation." 
 
I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons.  A 
baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any 
average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two.  A 
bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few 
inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands, 
though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only 
seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true 
two-handed sword). 
 
Say the rogue accepts the GM's ruling, goes back to the normal 
one-hand grip, but survives the fight anyway.  The adventure over, 
she seeks out a skilled swordsmith renowned for the quality of his 
work, and has the sword modified to a seven-inch grip, making it a 
true hand-and-a-half sword.  The swordsmith knows what he's doing, so 
the blade's construction is weakened in no way by adding a longer 
tang and handgrip.  She's also pleased with the minor improvement in 
its balance, the lengthening of the grip and lowering of the pommel 
acting to shift the sword's center-of-gravity slightly closer to the 
crossguard.  Now this better balance is just a bit of color for the 
campaign--the sword has the same OCV, the same damage potential, the 
same STR Min.  It's pretty much the same sword, just with a two-inch 
longer grip. 
 
Assume this is a campaign where weapons must be purchased with 
character points.  The blade is somewhat more costly than is typical 
in terms of active points, with a minor illumination spell imbued 
within it.  With the blade's new One-and-a-Half Handed Limitation, 
the real cost is reduced by a full point.  The player asks that the 
point saved be given back to her so she can spend it on one her 
skills.  Should the GM comply? 
 
I would rather the whole issue of hand-and-a-half not be treated as a 
Limitation applied to certain weapons.  It is simply a feature of 
many one-handed weapons--swords, axes, clubs, and so on.  You can 
hold a dagger in both hands if you want, perhaps to make sure you 
don't lose your grip.  Her sword's new, longer handgrip is just a 
colorful campaign detail, of no greater importance than the shape of 
the fuller cut along the blade's length or the decorative enameling 
on crossguard and pommel.  The rogue's investment in modifying her 
blade is just an interesting way of spending her money and down-time, 
not an issue of game mechanics. 
 
Getting back to the fight example, if the GM permits her tactic, what 
changes for her?  Ninja Hero says she is now effectively an 18 STR 
character for the purpose of resisting a Disarm attempt.  I can find 
nothing in Fantasy Hero on the subject of a change in STR Min for 
wielding a strictly one-handed weapon in two hands.  Maybe the GM 
reduces the STR Min of her weapon by -2, treating the sword as 
1.5-handed for this circumstance.  Maybe the GM reduces the STR Min 
by -3, if he uses a different house rule.  She still doesn't get to 
do more damage as she'd like; the STR Min would have to fall to 8 for 
that.  The Weapon Bind and Disarm maneuvers are more troublesome.  
Does she gain a STR benefit with either for her two-handed grip?  If 
so, does she get a +2 STR change to be in line with FH, or a +5 
doubling of her effective STR, as when she resists being Disarmed?  
(I don't own TUMA, so I don't know what it says on this point.  
Someone enlighten me.) 
 
Maybe she should be treated as 13 STR, her full STR, for any 
two-handed act, 8 STR for any one-handed act, apply the rule 
uniformly, and make her blade an 8 STR Min for one-handed use.  Leads 
to arguments on other points, though, such as whether a one-handed 
punch is only an 8 STR punch, and how much STR is in one leg or in 
one finger.  I don't want to go down that road. 
 
Thinking over all this two-handed grip business, I like the 
consistency of a +5 STR change for MA maneuvers and a -5 for STR Min. 
 Easy to remember.  And I want that rogue to gain a damage bonus with 
her sword.  She'll likely need it.      
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:22:20 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David Majors writes: 
 
> The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based 
> on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice 
> nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases) 
 
You sacrifice your ability to use a shield. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXbz6J6VRH7BJMxHAQEEMwQAu0U+t11mC3NMBk0M9BZzqGK2860zeBpr 
YfPUycls5ur/o0+WoQkyX6SEmfR9Y25GB5o/o1PfXg7gI1jY/7ZYS/E7n1a5QSQ9 
7QN+5OWRmAIVYG/JxZBHmMXIQipSnbd3b7RLZvNACV61Y6ogV+aBqiTVng072n8i 
ZZw+B+ADczc= 
=vhux 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:24:44 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bryant Berggren writes: 
 
> A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h 
> weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back 
> (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously 
> a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use. 
 
And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield.  You cannot use a shield if 
you use two hands on the weapon.  This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared 
to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXb0e56VRH7BJMxHAQHTWgQAqOrEsFHcTJBUw6bfQ3dNTiC73GIFP0IM 
2vE97tmsOh7wXWmqgeqfj6MpnheQgkHg7PDq5xsuNRtC+9IHVeyZpxKFMEatwcBG 
RC7QfrhifKHJ6STJv57m7W6f/St0VieIHsrEpOr6Lj2DABYzaGRx7Y+vzLGrbCh2 
sUyQzsaWQ7w= 
=xdBf 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:37:48 -0400 
Lines: 40 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon 
> Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon? 
 
Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the 
shield. 
 
Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields 
in their other hands.  In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major 
hero or villain to do so.  This is the baseline that Hero is working from. 
 
Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of 
your hands are occupied is a disadvantage. 
 
Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2 
limitation, according to Hero.  That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon" 
limitation means. 
 
Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0 
limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4.  That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half 
weapon" limitation means. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXb3ip6VRH7BJMxHAQE/KwP/VvPqrqzkS0SwlJeNTlZQjkigyGWfZKAA 
6tL1vNVh9BWsbKMcGKLBwdoRbn9pMlMZ4+gVcf0+d3S0zMzir9JfbgScnl3LSYUi 
cPDrWIl7vDY0Hw50Blhuyfz8BiPjWHzvej2Is7jvgymWYxMuVkQHV/awHJZfkvUP 
CraA/Ml8aR4= 
=rqTZ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:38:50 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> Umm. So if I have a plain Energy Blast, and wanted to apply the Limitation 
> "0 DCV Concentration when used as an Area Effect", you'd allow this as a 
> Limitation? After all, 0 DCV is more severe of a drawback than just not 
> having a shield. 
 
The weapon limitations are for heroic scale campaigns.  Comparing with 
superheroics is senseless. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXb3yp6VRH7BJMxHAQHZ4wP/RE+ooXUXCOf0T6LSI0V/aGneRPryO8+W 
SJ9k6tlTGNv1gGPeFuPpE6TGgGwJePsZUpFMGM4X6ws8i3lYB4U2xLOlVbUd56aO 
wQtuH3u6Q6xr+VEu/35mJPuVvC1NY63efbLh/HxUqvuefj2zZt+pnIIXAYYJdfza 
k6oaltAUi2A= 
=1hdM 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @clients.relia.net ip 207.173.156.9 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 13:39:50 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept. <part 2> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Darrin Kelley wrote: 
 
>     My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar 
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And 
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements 
> actually work together effectively. 
 
My last post I left off advice... oops. 
 
First, in the beginning revel in the differences. Part of the fun in 
reading such crossovers is the culture clash- set up situations where 
that happens. People coming from very different preconceptions always 
have fun learning each others nuances. Remember Blackthorne's slow 
understanding of the Japanese in Shogun... There you go. However don't 
overdo it; this can get tedious quickly- Also if you embarress the PCs, 
make a point of doing the same kind of situation to the NPCs... 
 
A wonderfull example of the culture clash came up in my FH game (stolen 
pretty straitforward out of Nueromancer). Withing the first few days of 
appearing in the Fantasy World, everyone was gathered in a clearing 
(springtime) discussing what was going on. The Cyber character was very 
figdety and uncomfortable... finally exclaiming "What is That 
STENCH!?!".. he was of course refering to the grass and flowers. 
 
Second  Give each character or something that focuses on his 
differances, and lets his particular background save the day- 
 
In the FH game, the bond/MCgyver type built some nifty radio 
transmitters from parts the Cyber Character carried. The Old west doctor 
stopped a plauge. The Cyber (having come to love the new world) saw a 
new ingested magical chemical being marketed- just like recreational 
drugs in his world. He stopped it. Each side of a cross-over has 
background and knowledge that the other side lacks- let them use it. 
 
Lastly, if it a long term thing (campaign as opposed to adventure) let 
people develop ties, and find themselves becoming attached to the new 
home (and give them a reason to do so). In Shogun, Blackthorn became (in 
some ways) very Japanese... In my FH game the Cyber character fell 
completely in love with the beauty and 'innocence' of his new world; he 
would never even consider moving back 'home'. Have the character wake up 
3 years later and realize they have gone native- it makes for a 
wonderful soul-searching scene. 
 
Hope it helps. 
-Mhoram 
--  
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, 
   for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien 
No matter how subtle the Wizard, 
   a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S 
R Brust 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:51:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Forgive me for not under standing but I am unclear as to what was the def 
> you used. 
 
	No prob.  I'd explain, but . . . 
 
> For Example: 
> 
> El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR) 
> 
> are you saying that he would have 
> 
> 10 pd vs reqular attacks, 
>  5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and 
> 15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack 
 
	You got it exactly right.  Just look at that PD/rPD or ED/rED 
column over to the right of the standard character sheet.  Normal attacks 
defend at the D level, the BOD of KA attacks at the rD level, and the STUN 
of KA attacks at the sum of the two.  So yes, you had it correctly. 
 
> or something else? 
 
	Nope. 
 
> It seems like a rather interesting idea... 
 
 
	Like I said, this was how I thought it was to be done officially, 
until learning otherwise a couple of years ago.  It did seem to be a bit 
better balanced than the official way of doing things to the extent that 
people didn't take KAs merely for high STUN potential. 
 
 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:56:16 -0400 
Lines: 37 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Len Carpenter writes: 
 
> A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a 
> typical long sword.  By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3 
> feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to 
> accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches.  The GM treats 
> this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, 
 
This is a mistake; it is not a broadsword.  The (nonexistant outside of 
D&D) broadsword has a much larger hilt and a wider blade -- think Conan's 
sword.  This is a long sword. 
 
Regardless, special effects say that it is a 1-handed weapon; it cannot be 
wielded effectively with two hands.  The extra hand adds no leverage, and 
hinders the free movement of the other arm, especially the wrist, which is 
the source of much of the impetus behind a one-handed blade. 
 
At this point I have to ask, if she knows the guy is stronger and better, 
why is she standing there waiting to be chopped up into kibble? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXb7356VRH7BJMxHAQHHvgP+O3y+/yStYry648bHpYvUtOTm2SwXB7BH 
1GMIy/ihupo1MB9HQ6CdsxWSfJmZjRPLf2/JIKZjCrSngGHQHtF+PpzeITvtAxxw 
ROUAKHl4zFRKS7DjRmlzZnkOEps9IDFcoeoM2XSDj3p8cgzs7sKFl2EuZaxfJPNX 
tE6N/OMOowU= 
=eV+4 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:57:36 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back 
> > (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously 
> > a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use. 
> 
> And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield.  You cannot use a shield if 
> you use two hands on the weapon.  This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared 
> to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield. 
 
	And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon.  Just 
don't use it two handed.  Then you have a free -1/4 limitation.  And, 
should you happen to lose your shield during combat, you have the option 
to switching to two hands for a STR min *advantage* while someone with the 
unlimited 1-handed weapon cannot.  How is this at all limiting, Rat? 
 
	It would be if the character were forced to use it two-handed for 
a good portion of the time, being unable to use an available shiled, but 
this limitation doesn't do that. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:01:22 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2 
> limitation, according to Hero.  That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon" 
> limitation means. 
 
	No argument there. 
 
> Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0 
> limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4.  That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half 
> weapon" limitation means. 
 
	And you are making yourself look worse and worse here.  Some other 
arguments, you've actually had something to say for your side of it.  This 
time, you have nothing.  The limitation doesn't require the loss of the 
shiled, it just allows the character to *shoose* to forgo the shield. 
There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a 
-1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon. 
 
	You have done nothing to address this point.  Are you too stubborn 
to recognize an error in the rules when you see it? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 16:09:03 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon.  Just 
> don't use it two handed. 
 
Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness.  That requires 
two hands.  You get the limitation because you cannot have both. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXb+3p6VRH7BJMxHAQEYvwP+OB5xzmR7BB0MbKDZPI7IxWsVEtpowQoJ 
ammYzb+8eIcx7tuWAkgc/mK77Zkz8Rgm1UQt0WXxt/j4neO01o/77Sr6R73vWU0b 
iE3yERe4xi0fBkGXSnhan9BD+lnxLEuxOf26SG11wvPXVqcKZLqAnHS3khKgir2d 
EQZILwO5jgE= 
=oIDW 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 16:13:53 -0400 
Lines: 33 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	And you are making yourself look worse and worse here.  Some other 
> arguments, you've actually had something to say for your side of it. 
> This time, you have nothing.  The limitation doesn't require the loss of 
> the shiled, it just allows the character to *shoose* to forgo the shield. 
 
Which is why it is less of a disadvantage than not having that choice at 
all. 
 
> There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a 
> -1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon. 
 
By chosing never to be without a shield, she choses to use her weapon to 
less than its full capability.  So she is *still* at a disadvantage. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXcAAJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHurwP+KiLVJUpuY9kvYSgA/m9evzKLiz+8zksH 
D2zFDfMH82ZLvFgiDtJ2L4D/k7XloUOEGdix6RdnyHX+uF/xGwtBcWqZI+bFwQyc 
G0HVbRnC62tXtnuGXuxrUAUl7IUSi0osQtdhIh4sNKdMtt71UgAvcYIYJhDXsgPX 
CGL6GuIaqns= 
=FrcP 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-8.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.138 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:45:51 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: HSR 5th Edition and Fuzion 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA00358 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Will HSR 5th edition have any mention of Fuzion, such as explaining how to 
convert back and forth between the systems? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:02:51 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> > 	And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon.  Just 
> > don't use it two handed. 
> 
> Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness.  That requires 
> two hands.  You get the limitation because you cannot have both. 
 
	Full effectiveness?  You mean for this -1/4 limitation I can get a 
-2 to STR min when using it two handed?  But this doesn't change the fact 
that, by using this weapon one handed, I have exactly the same weapon as I 
would for no limitation.  With the limitation, I am better off than someon 
with a more expensive one-handed weapon if we were both to find ourselves 
without shields.  This isn't a limitation.  Rememver, a limitation that 
doesn't limit the character is worth no points. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.ezy.net from asmodeus@shell.ezy.net server @206.43.209.10 ip 206.43.209.10 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:49:41 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> David Majors writes: 
>  
> > The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based 
> > on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice 
> > nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases) 
>  
> You sacrifice your ability to use a shield. 
>  
 
The answer is "No you don't"...  
 
You can use a 30 active point sword with the limitation 1.5 hands with 15 
strength in one hand. 
 
AND 
 
You can use a 30 active point sword "WITHOUT" the limitation in one hand 
at guess what... 15 strength! 
 
So, there is NO difference as I said before. 
 
David Majors 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:50:54 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:40 AM 6/4/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility 
>belt'?   
> 
>Should it be bought as a gadget pool? 
>A Mulitpower? 
>Or each item seperatly? 
> 
>If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the 
>Mulitpower pool itself?  Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an 
>OAF lim on each slot? 
> 
>Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston 
>and Steve Long).  You thoughts would be most welcome. 
 
   Dave Mattingly and I are in the early stages (read: proposal stage) of 
The Ultimate Gadgeteer, and this is a quite natural inclusion. 
   At this point, we're leaning toward the OIF Multipower model as the 
"norm," since it has precedent.  However, there is something to be said for 
the other two models you mention. 
   A VPP Utility Belt can have anything in it, as long as no single item's 
Active Points exceeds the size of the VPP Pool, and the total real points 
of all items being used at one time also do not exceed the size of the 
Pool.  (This is, of course, the normal workings of a VPP.)  Having a Pool 
this broad can be unbalancing, however, if the No Skill Roll and 0-Phase 
Action Advantages are taken.  I'll grant that this would be a tad on the 
expensive side (40 points for a 20 point VPP, if my math is right, assuming 
OIF is the only global Limitation), but this is a Pool that can do an 
immensely broad range of things.  I'd recommend that, if a VPP is used, it 
be modeled with either No Skill Roll, Only Change At Base (meaning the 
character has a nigh-infinite arsenal of goodies but has to select what he 
has before he leaves on the adventure) or 0-Phase Action (meaning he can 
decide instantly what he has, but has to make a Skill Roll -- probably 
Resourcefulness, a new INT-based Skill I'm introducing here, or something 
similar -- to see if he thought to bring along any given device). 
   As for the idea of buying each item separately, this too has a good 
point -- to wit, the character can use any combination of the gadgets, or 
even all of them, at the same time.  On the down side, this becomes fairly 
expensive if a belt has a lot of stuff on it, so not all characters should 
try this. 
   As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed 
recommend this.  The OAF means that each item can be taken away during 
combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire 
belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff on 
it. 
   That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic.  Now if you'll please 
excuse me, I need to go find my asbestos suit.  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 17:56:33 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	Full effectiveness?  You mean for this -1/4 limitation I can get a 
> -2 to STR min when using it two handed? 
 
No, for a -1/4 you cannot use a shield if you do so.  You are restricted 
exactly as if you were wielding a two-handed weapon.  While you use two 
hands you are using a two-handed weapon. 
 
You can get the damage, or you can use a shield, but you cannot have both 
at the same time. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXcYEJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHzogP9GMsd+TscXQGG1XP1ll63H4o9Qt235e6D 
bYtHEOyZI30aD7Za2mdlgf4/IFyt3Ut7JLF4/qEs/xzS5PFki7L+iPn/1bbotmNL 
RvXcmXjy8kOiUkycvJiinmWCKCc53B0c+HyZeXELd+det18wvvVs5TeUgpQ8p4Gn 
qhmrhO3V5KM= 
=ckMp 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo londo.prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jun 1998 17:58:08 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed 
> weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full 
> effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1 
> 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options. 
 
Wrong.  A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect 
with one hand, and your other hand is always free to do something else. 
A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield, 
but you cannot have both at the same time. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNXcYb56VRH7BJMxHAQEvRAP+N40CUCRKmhfUGzPAUdAHl5w9twbdfydx 
1DGCDUwCf6yNWJmQdUmdAlICtzpIv4ww84HjC1sfib5FPpWFq2+rGGVUaJ9RcJXB 
tX0WlXAvkCB0SrILcPXVP7/T/pAvNe1JYw8qlYDS4fsCXkgkwJCi2fPx1ftdUL1Q 
OKEXkmzpfxY= 
=fAAJ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.ezy.net from asmodeus@shell.ezy.net server @206.43.209.10 ip 206.43.209.10 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:03:24 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a 
> > -1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon. 
>  
> By chosing never to be without a shield, she choses to use her weapon to 
> less than its full capability.  So she is *still* at a disadvantage. 
 
But the disadvantage does not raise the strength minimum.  She is not 
losing anything, she is gaining an added function that she choses not to 
use.  The added function should NOT give her points.  That is the whole 
reason for this debate. 
 
If the STR min was raised, you would absolutely be correct.  BUT, since it 
isn't she gains a FREE limitation of -1/4. 
 
Do the math Rat.  Try stepping back for a minute and calculate the 
strength minimums.  See the fact that the character who has a 1 handed 
weapon is really at a disadvantage to the one with a 1.5 handed weapon. 
 
The one handed guy can ONLY use the weapon in one hand at 15 STR. 
(based on 2d6 killing) 
 
While the one and a half handed sword wielding guy can wield the same 
damage in 1 hand at the same 15 STR "OR" drop his shield and get the STR 
minimum lowered to 13 STR. 
 
This is WHY the current limitation of 1.5 hands is NOT a limitation. 
 
Giving the wielder the ability to NOT use a shield and then having them 
wear a shield anyway has NOT impeded them.  It has only made the real  
point cost lower on the same sword. (Which matters if you make players pay 
for magical items that they start the campaign with.  Which some GMs do.) 
 
David Majors 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:20:34 -0700 
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Steve Long's Original Mental Combat Maneuvers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:47 PM 2/26/1998 -0600, Tim Gilberg wrote: 
>O.K, I know it's been a while, but I was just able to scare up  
>file with Long's Mental Combat Maneuvers.  Without further ado: 
 
   Thanks for finding and posting these, Tim.  I don't currently have a 
full-fledged mentalist in my group (Rattler hardly counts), but if I do I'm 
going to want to have these available. 
   I snipped the basic maneuvers, but I have some thoughts on the Advanced 
Maneuvers: 
 
>Advanced Maneuvers 
>Cerebral Assault    4    1/2  -1   -1   2d6 NND (Power Defense) 
>Ego Crush           5    1/2  -2   +1   Ego Attack +4 DC 
>Ego Siphon          4    1/2  -1   -1   2d6 EGO Drain 
>Ego Strike          4    1/2  +1   +1   Ego Attack +2 DC 
>Mental Lock         4    1/2  -2   -2   "Disarm" mental power for 
>                                        1d6 Segments; requires same 
>                                        power 
>Mind Block          4    1/2  +2   +2   "Block" mental attacks; 
>                                        requires same power; Abort 
>Mind Destruction    5    1/2  -2   -2   1/2d6 RKA 
>Mind Evade          4    1/2  --   +5   "Dodge" mental attacks; 
>                                        Abort 
>+1 Damage Class     4 
 
   This is, of course, strikingly close to some of the basic maneuvers for 
Martial Arts (probably because these maneuvers are built on the same 
structure).  This brings to mind the idea of building additional Mental 
Combat Maneuvers based on other existing maneuvers. 
   For instance, I could invent a Mind Hold (-2 OCV, -2 DCV, "Grab" Mind, 
+5 EGO for holding on).  Holding on to a target would require an EGO vs EGO 
Roll similar to the STR vs STR used for regular Grabs.  The attacker could 
then perform most of the options with Grab (mostly "locking" the target's 
mental powers to keep them from being used, or "redirecting" one to himself 
or some other target -- though I imagine giving his mind a mental 
"squeeze," doing STR-like damage with EGO, could be a possibility as well). 
   Of course, if there's a Mind Hold, there would have to be a Mental 
Escape (-1 OCV, -1 DCV, +10 EGO vs Mind Hold). 
   Mental-based versions of Counterstrike, Eye Gouge, Joint Break, and a 
maybe few others would also be possible. 
   Given enough maneuvers, one could devise different schools of mental 
discipline in much the same way that martial artists have schools of 
physical discipline.  A mentalist-centered supers campaign could include a 
Hwarang-Do practitioner whose training includes Korean mental disciplines, 
a former KGB agent from the paranormal operatives division, a member of a 
San Francisco enclave of psychics, and a Varanyi, each of which trained in 
a different mental discipline and has different ways of going about things 
in mental combat. 
   The short of it is that these maneuvers, like the modifiers Steve 
Peterson replaced them with, serve to give mental combat more variety, 
especially in campaigns that are heavy on them. 
 
> I personally haven't used them yet, but do think that 
>they are more useful than the ones included in TUM.  Anyone else? 
 
   To this point, I think one can mix and match.  In fact, most of the 
"maneuvers" that Steve Peterson put in TUM, I don't even think of as 
maneuvers so much as modifiers. 
   On a similar topic, folks may have noticed that Latent Mentalist, as 
printed, enables a character to use Basic Mental Combat Maneuvers, which of 
course were left out.  As a replacement rule, I would allow characters with 
Latent Mentalist (if I had any) to use the four Defensive "maneuvers" or a 
Mind Shield.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this rule? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:26:03 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:24 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bryant Berggren writes: 
> 
>> A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h 
>> weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something 
back 
>> (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is 
obviously 
>> a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use. 
> 
>And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield.  You cannot use a shield if 
>you use two hands on the weapon.  This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared 
>to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield. 
 
   But on the other hand, a one-handed weapon may *never* be used two-handed. 
   I have to side with the others on this one, Rat.  A character with a 
hand-and-a-half weapon can go through an entire campaign without ever using 
two hands on it, and always get to use his shield, all the while getting a 
-1/4 Limitation for something that never actually limits him.  I cannot 
Stretch my imagination far enough to see how that's Limiting, compared to 
just a straight one-handed weapon. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:33:46 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:37 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon 
>> Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon? 
> 
>Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the 
>shield. 
> 
>Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields 
>in their other hands.  In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major 
>hero or villain to do so.  This is the baseline that Hero is working from. 
> 
>Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of 
>your hands are occupied is a disadvantage. 
> 
>Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2 
>limitation, according to Hero.  That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon" 
>limitation means. 
> 
>Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0 
>limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4.  That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half 
>weapon" limitation means. 
 
   A character with a hand-and-a-half weapon may use a shield any time he 
wants.  He just sacrifices the option of using the weapon two-handed by 
using the shield, and this option he's sacrificing does not exist in the 
first place for a one-handed weapon.  For this to be a Limitation that 
actually limits the character, he would have to be not be the one in 
control of the situation. 
   I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making 
hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed" 
-1/4 Limitations. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:42:34 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:09 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Tim R Gilberg writes: 
> 
>>  And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon.  Just 
>> don't use it two handed. 
> 
>Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness.  That requires 
>two hands.  You get the limitation because you cannot have both. 
 
   Am I missing something here?  Isn't the STR Min for a hand-and-a-half 
weapon used one-handed the same as for a one-handed weapon? 
   If the hand-and-a-half weapon has a higher STR Min used one-handed than 
a straight one-handed weapon, then you may have a point here. 
   Otherwise there is no mathematical difference, at least that I can see, 
between a one-handed weapon and a hand-and-a-half weapon used exclusively 
one-handed.  They have the same OCV, the same damage, the same STR Min, the 
same END usage, the same damage added for STR, and the same ability to use 
a Shield.  In fact, the only difference between the two (at least, that I 
can see) is that the hand-and-a-half weapon has the added ability of 
ditching the shield for some additional damage. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www05.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www05.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.25 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:30:03 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Tim R Gilberg writes: 
>  
> > 	And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon.  Just 
> > don't use it two handed. 
>  
> Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness.  That requires 
> two hands.  You get the limitation because you cannot have both. 
 
You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www05.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www05.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.25 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:31:14 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Bryant Berggren writes: 
>  
> > A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h 
> > weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back 
> > (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously 
> > a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use. 
>  
> And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield.  You cannot use a shield if 
> you use two hands on the weapon.  This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared 
> to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield. 
 
A one-handed weapon may *ALWAYS* use a shield. A hand-and-a-half weapon may *ALWAYS* use a shield. You don't _have_ to use two hands, _ever_. 
 
No matter how limited the second option of using two hands may be, it doesn't limit the first option in the slightest. 
 
However, you  
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vespucci.advicom.net from mdmitche@advicom.net server root@199.170.120.42 ip 199.170.120.42 
X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:58:34 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I thought I would be cute and start a new thread (and separate the 
discussion a bit), with my post: 
 
Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken 
 
Was that a mistake?  I haven't seen any replies to it, and I cannot believe 
that it is less interesting than arguing with Rat :-)  OTOH, we had some 
connection trouble yesterday, did it never get posted properly? 
 
I'd like some feedback since this actually matters in our campaign. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:58:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Jason Sullivan 
> >The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have 
> both the deck and the game itself. 
>         There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or 
> something similar to it) to HERO.< 
>  
> Oops, I'm not familiar with Master Book.  What sort of RPG is it?  A 
> generic system? 
	It's a generic system, all though they have published many 
supplements for it (Tales From The Crypt, Indiana Jones, Necroscope, 
Species, Tank Girl, Bloodshadows, etc.). There are conversions for other 
WEG as well, 
like Torg and their D6 based games... all though I don't know the 
specifics on that. 
 
> What was the result of the thread on converting the Action Deck to HERO?  
> Is it a feasible idea? 
	Not much of a response.  It ended up going to private mail, where 
I typed an elaborate description of each type of card and what it did to 
one or two people.  I felt I didn't have a good grasp of either game 
system, so I didn't want to fiddle with it. 
	I wanted to use the system to enhance plots for my HERO games, 
since it gives the player more control during a story (...for instance, 
they can play a card to have a personal stake in the matter somehow, or 
have an NPC that you introduce become more prevalent in the plot [and back 
then, I felt my game needed it, because I was known for being notoriously 
strict with the plausibility of my plots.]) 
 
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+- 
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."  
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6.  
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:15:57 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:47 PM 6/3/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>> Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air. 
> 
>Oh.  Well.  That is "Flight". 
> 
>> If you get grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall 
>> you were clinging to. 
> 
>Only if you are thrown into said wall. 
 
The point of the power is that the wall WILL take collateral damage if the 
character is knocked around while "Clinging" to it, at range.  Thus 
Clinging, Ranged.  A weird Damage Shield which targets wall would be silly. 
 
  Joe 
 
(Only a slightly late response.) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:30:05 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:54 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP) 
> 
>> El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR) 
>> 
>> are you saying that he would have 
>> 
>> 10 pd vs reqular attacks, 
>>  5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and 
>> 15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack 
> 
> You got it exactly right. [snip] 
> 
>> It seems like a rather interesting idea... 
> 
> Like I said, this was how I thought it was to be done officially, 
>until learning otherwise a couple of years ago.  It did seem to be a bit 
>better balanced than the official way of doing things to the extent that 
>people didn't take KAs merely for high STUN potential. 
 
   On the face of it, I wouldn't like this idea; but considering you've 
playtested it extensively (by virtue of having thought for a long time that 
this was how it was already supposed to be done), I do like it, though the 
reason you give above is the only real reason for me to like it.  (I guess 
I'd have to playtest it for myself, probably in a fantasy setting where 
Killing and Normal attacks would, by genre, exist side-by-side at about 
50/50 proportions.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:45:31 -0700 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:08 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Tim Statler wrote: 
>The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit 
>in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading 
>this I could use another opinion.) 
 
   A person is normally immune to one's own odor; that's how people who 
develop incredible body odors, either as an affliction or due to poor 
hygiene, can stand to be around themselves.  Thus, the Pak could be immune 
to the unpleasantness of their own odors (at no point cost). 
 
>I have to look up the Green/Purple. Ivanova solved the B5 problem by 
>marching the greens to be dyed purple. By the 5th season, it seemed to 
>be over. I don't remember when it starts up again. 
 
   After seven years, if I recall correctly (which would put the next 
conflict somewhere between the end of the B5 cycle and the beginning of the 
Crusade cycle). 
   And on the top of the Drazi, I'm starting to suspect that they don't 
have personal names.  Ever hear one addressed or referred to by name?  The 
Drazi ambassador is just "The Drazi Ambassador."  I don't know that this 
would be reflected in Hero terms, but it's an interesting point. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
From: JJP3337@aol.com 
X-SMTP: helo imo25.mx.aol.com from jjp3337@aol.com server @imo25.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.69 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:50:16 EDT 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Base Extras 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I am looking for a way to simulate base extras like extreme weather clothes 
ect. that my groups superteam members not so gifted as to have safe environs 
can use. Attaching them to the base seemed to be a good wasy of evenly 
distibuting the points but I'm stuck as to how to sumulate it. A lot of 
independent or oif safe environs for specific suits would get to cumbersome 
and simplifying it to say one suit does it seems a little to unrealistic. any 
ideas out there. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:51:13 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:58 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Filksinger  writes: 
> 
>> You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed 
>> weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full 
>> effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1 
>> 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options. 
> 
>Wrong.  A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect 
>with one hand, and your other hand is always free to do something else. 
>A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield, 
>but you cannot have both at the same time. 
 
   You're looking at "its full possible effect" without comparing what the 
"full possible effect" of the respective weapons are.  The hand-and-a-half 
weapon has a *greater* "full possible effect" when used two-handed than the 
one-handed weapon has when used one-handed. 
   As I mention in another post, when you compare the numbers -- the 
*actual numbers in play*, not compared to what *could* be done -- the 
one-handed weapon is identical to a hand-and-a-half weapon used one-handed. 
 The only difference is that the hand-and-a-half weapon has an additional 
option, for which it gets a -1/4 Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www09.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www09.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.29 
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 00:56:10 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> David Majors writes: 
>  
> > The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based 
> > on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice 
> > nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases) 
>  
> You sacrifice your ability to use a shield. 
 
You can use it one-handed, in which case it works exactly like a one-handed weapon. You give up no part of your ability to use it one-handed. Adding the _option_ of using it two-handed costs you nothing unless you _choose_ to use it, but is considered a Limitation. A Limitation that only exists when you _choose_ to have it is not a Limitation. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www04.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www04.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.24 
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:04:33 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed 
> > weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full 
> > effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1 
> > 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options. 
>  
> Wrong.  A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect 
> with one hand,  
 
Agreed. I said it doesn't allow the option of achieving the "full effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. 
 
>and your other hand is always free to do something else. 
> A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield, 
> but you cannot have both at the same time. 
 
Let me see if I understand. I have a power X. I can have it unlimited, or I can limit it with a 1/2 Limitation, or I can have both for a 1/4 Limitation. Is this correct? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:10:06 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: filkhero@usa.net 
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net] 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > 
> > A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of 
> > intellighence to 
> > guide it.  I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your 
> > language, have 
> > some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have 
> > knowledge of the 
> > area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its 
> > warhead.  If the computer 
> > has an ego or not may also come into play.  I've found that the best way to 
> > build such attacks is 
> > either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM.  With the 
> > automaton/vehicle you 
> > also are freed from that maximum range rule also. 
> > 
> 
> Agreed. However, the idea was to determine how hard it was to select a location for the 
> weapon to strike, at a range, when blinded. 
> 
 
I understand.  My example was to show how to build a weapon that could do be told where to 
attack and then do it. 
 
> For example, suppose I had Ego Attack. My GM rules that, if I cannot see the target, the 
> Ego Attack must be targeted using the rules for firing blind used under Darkness, 
> Invisibility, and Flash. I say, "Great! I have a 0 ECV to attack the villain who is in our 
> base in Seattle, even though I am in Antarctica!" 
> 
> The GM, realizing what he has done, says, "Wait. Additionally, you have to tell me which 
> hex, in relation to you, that you are firing at, just like in some forms of firing blind 
> in 3rd Edition." The GM figures that this will put the player back a bit, and avoid the 
> problem. 
> 
> The player then responds, "How do I do that? Do I declare that I am attacking a target 
> 9,476 miles, 326 feet from me, twelve degrees west of true north? How do you know if that 
> is on target?" 
> 
> Now, does the GM get out large maps and various navigational aids and determine the exact 
> figures(probably impossible), or does he create a mechanism for saying, "OK, make a PER 
> roll at -5, modified by range, with an AK roll also modified by range as a Complimentary 
> roll"? If he does the second, what should the mechanism be? The above would work, but is 
> it the best solution? 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
  Here is one of those things where the GM has to shoot from the hip.  Examples can be made to 
knock down just about any rule of thumb you come up with.  It where the GM has to weigh each 
situation individually and maybe even a few wild ass guesses and come up with something, then 
hope that the same situation doesn't come up again where they have to make the opposite 
situation. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:16:42 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: filkhero@usa.net 
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Incompetent Players 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: aregalad@miami.edu 
> > 
> > No need to punish the character for the players actions. :] 
> > (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent). 
> > 
> 
> Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in six games 
> (short campaign) he was the only one whose character died. 
> 
> And he died five times. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
  What were you playing? For Call of Cthulhu that's about average, but for any HSR I would 
have thought that level of in competance impossible for a sentient being, 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:48:12 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> <snip> 
>    Absolutely!  This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which 
> is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting 
> Sense.  The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental 
> Powers, and for the same reasons. 
> 
 
Please explain why I can't take this shot?  To extend you little scenerio lets say 
the target is about 8 feet behind the fourth  shrub in my front yard.  Since each 
shrubs is about 3 feet apart and the first on is one foot to the left of the front 
door.  That would put the target at 13 feet to the left of the front door.  All of 
this information is easily abotainable from area knowledge of my apartmant and a 
video camera view of my front yard. Even if I'm off by as much as +/- 3 feet I 
still have the hex the target is in which may be sufficient to fire the gun and is 
definitely sufficient for mental powers. 
 
> >>    As to the Radar and Sonar, these are not Clairvoyance systems.  These 
> >> are Radar and Sonar systems, for the base or vehicle being operated.  A 
> >> gunner from the base or vehicle could easily use these systems for 
> >> targeting purposes.  This does become a Targeting Sense in the Hero sense 
> >> of the word. 
> > 
> >Then what about an AWACS systems targetting missiles fired from a base in 
> Rihad, 
> >Suadi Arabia.  Are you saying that the plane and the base are part of the 
> same 
> >system?  One other question, where does it say in the Clairsentience rules 
> that it 
> >cannot be used for Radar or Sonar? 
> > 
> >>    On the other hand, if someone a distance away from the base or vehicle 
> >> were to "tap in" to the signal and see what the radar or sonar system were 
> >> showing those inside the base or vehicle, he couldn't use that for simple 
> >> targeting; triangulation and other math would be required.  This becomes a 
> >> non-Targeting Sense for purposes of Hero mechanics. 
> > 
> >So how did the AWACS target and fire missiles in Rihad during the gulf war? 
> 
>    With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using 
> that term rather broadly).  It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done 
> by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know.  But I simply 
> cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen 
> from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons 
> from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar 
> system. 
> 
 
Wrong again.  The AWACS locates the target, calls the missile sytem operators and 
gives them the coordinate.  Then then fire the missile at the given coordinate. 
Depending on the type of the missile, the AWACS may even be able to give 
additional guidence information to the missile while it is in flight to guarentee 
that it hits the target.  The wezpon being fired could be anything from an 
artillary shell to a dumb missle to a cruise missle to an ICBM.  The simple fact 
is the vehicle doing the targetting and the weapon doing the attacking are not 
part of the same system by any means.  Another question is how is artillary worked 
when a forward observer is givin the coordinates to be fired at.  He's not the one 
firing the weapon but he is the one targetting the weapona and making the 
corrections for missing the target. 
 
> >>    I'm also increasingly of a suspicion that the HUD, as you've now 
> >> described it, is actually a Normal Sight system for a vehicle rather than a 
> >> Clairvoyance system (which would generally require that the point of 
> >> perspective be independent of the person viewing it). 
> > 
> >The A-10 has no vision system.  The pilots had to use the missiles vision 
> sytem to 
> >fly and target by.  If the HUD is a vision system for a vehicle then is it a 
> >vision system for a Colt .45 when mounted on one? 
> 
>    No, it's simply Skill Levels.  A Colt .45 is not its own entity in the 
> Hero System.  It has no Characteristics.  A Vehicle has Characteristics, 
> and so it can have its own sensory systems.  (And BTW a guided missile, 
> whether guided by a computer or by a human controller, and be written up as 
> a Vehicle.) 
 
That's exactly what I said it was, skill levels.  A HUD is like a LASER sight it 
givesthe shooter better targetting information.  It is not a vision system nor is 
it a targetting system, it is simply skill levels.  The vision system is the IR 
cameras on the maverick missiles which send a live video feed to the onboard 
monitor whcih the pilot uses for targetting the missile and flying the plane at 
night.  Once again we have a live camera feed used to target a weapon. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net from rossrannells@worldnet.att.net server @mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.36 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:59:08 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
 
 
Darrin Kelley wrote: 
 
>     I just finished reading a pretty interesting couple of books. Yes, 
> they are gimmicks, but they seem to deserve honorable mention. Both 
> books are connected, and listed in order. 
> 
> Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Second Contact 
> 
>     This is the Marvel Comics special one shot comic book. The plot is 
> sort of weak, but it provides a good piece of history for the second 
> book I illustrate below. It is worth getting just based on that. 
> 
> Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Planet X 
> 
>     This is a full blown paperback novel by Michael Jan Friedman. I 
> bought it more as a curiousity piece than out of any form of 
> seriousness. Well, I just finished reading it. It was great! An 
> incredible book. I honestly loved it. It had a very good storyline. And 
> was was well worth my money. 
> 
>     Now comes the hook into the topics of the lists I am sending this 
> to: 
> 
>     I know that several people have done actual superhero games based in 
> the Star Trek background. Several people from these lists. But I have 
> not heard anyone tryong to do the type of crossover that was done in the 
> books I have spotlighted above. Star Trek is a pure science fiction 
> environment. X-Men are pure superhero. If any game systems could pull 
> such a similar thing off, it should be The Hero System and Fuzion. 
> 
>     My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar 
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And 
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements 
> actually work together effectively. 
 
  I tried this about 18 months ago: high powered mentalist on the run from 
PsyCorps in the Babylon 5 universe.  The PC's could have any powers they 
wanted (with psy special effect encouraged) since they were genetic 
experiments gone awry (the origanal idea came from the Ironheart episode). 
I got only three people interested and couldn't get them together at the 
same time to play.  So the campaign died an inglorious death 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:01:40 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
At 08:23 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 02:24 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>>Skill levels in Flight?  Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels 
>>to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be? 
> 
>   Apparently so (HSR, page 143, last paragraph, last sentence). 
 
Unfortuneately, it does not list the cost of these skill levels. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:03:16 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> Since this debate is proving so much fun, let me add a few more 
> ingredients to the stew. 
>  
> A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a 
> typical long sword.  By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3 
> feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to 
> accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches.  The GM treats 
> this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, so it's a 
> one-handed weapon with a 13 STR Min, does 1d6+1 damage, and has a +1 
> OCV (these are not the values I personally would assign to her long 
> sword, but no matter).   
 
I don't see why not, since what you have described is the typical cut and 
thrust 'broad' sword of the middle ages. 
 
> The STR Min is convenient, since she has a 13 
> STR.  She's a two-fisted fighter--she commonly wields a dagger in her 
> left hand. 
 
Okay so far. 
  
> The rogue is confronted by a brawny knight in full plate armor, 
> swinging a two-handed great sword.  Fearing she is overmatched, she 
> throws her dagger at the knight hurriedly and awkwardly to distract 
> him for a second--the dagger bounces harmlessly off his breast 
> plate--and grips her sword with both hands, overlapping her left hand 
> over her right.  It's not a comfortable grip, but she's not worried 
> about comfort at the moment.  She believes she is trading a 
> questionable defensive edge ("Try to parry a great sword with a 
> dagger?  What am I, stupid?") for other advantages. 
 
Hmm... okay. 
  
> She does this, reasoning that by holding the blade so, her two arms 
> together will grant greater impetus to her blows, which she will need 
> if she's to have a prayer of wounding the heavily armored knight.  
> She further reasons that the firmer grip will give her greater 
> strength should she attempt a Weapon Bind or Disarm maneuver (she 
> knows her foe is much stronger than she, and is an expert swordsman, 
> so she figures she'll attempt either maneuver only if she sees the 
> knight's strength flagging, say by his being wounded in one arm.)  
> She also does this to lessen her chance of being Disarmed by the 
> heavier blade.  Her player knows that the GM uses the two-handed 
> Disarming rule on page 74 of Ninja Hero, which states that a 
> character holding a weapon in both hands gets an extra +5 STR for 
> holding on. 
 
Okay, this makes sense. 
  
> How to handle this event?  The GM might rule by fiat:  "No that's a 
> one-handed weapon, not a one-and-a-half handed sword.  Since your 
> long sword doesn't have the -1/4 Limitation:  One-and-a-Half Handed, 
> you cannot gain those advantages you want for your overlapping, 
> two-handed grip.  If you want those advantages, you should have taken 
> the Limitation." 
 
No, I'd try to go with the flow and run with the PC being heroic/creative. 
One can sorta grip a broadsword with two hands, especially if it is a 
later period sword.  The problem is that it's not a very comfortable way 
to hold the weapon, and you end up cupping the pommel in your off hand. 
I'd say that the lady rogue gets a +3 bonus to holding the weapons 
(instead of a full +5 STR).  She might also be ablew to get a simlar bonus 
to the STR min to have a chance of doing lsightly more damage (the problem 
is that your grip isn't going to give the the leverage you need.  You have 
a tighter grip on the weapon, but the hilt isn't long enough to allow one 
to take advantage of using it two handed). 
  
> I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons.  A 
> baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any 
> average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two.  A 
> bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few 
> inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands, 
> though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only 
> seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true 
> two-handed sword). 
 
Uh... bastard swords look to thave gips up two 12" long.  I've seen great 
swords with up to 18" of grip.  Certain German zwiehanders even had 
portions of the blade blunted and wrapped in leather to further increase 
the gripable area. 
  
> Say the rogue accepts the GM's ruling, goes back to the normal 
> one-hand grip, but survives the fight anyway.  The adventure over, 
> she seeks out a skilled swordsmith renowned for the quality of his 
> work, and has the sword modified to a seven-inch grip, making it a 
> true hand-and-a-half sword.  The swordsmith knows what he's doing, so 
> the blade's construction is weakened in no way by adding a longer 
> tang and handgrip.  She's also pleased with the minor improvement in 
> its balance, the lengthening of the grip and lowering of the pommel 
> acting to shift the sword's center-of-gravity slightly closer to the 
> crossguard.  Now this better balance is just a bit of color for the 
> campaign--the sword has the same OCV, the same damage potential, the 
> same STR Min.  It's pretty much the same sword, just with a two-inch 
> longer grip. 
>  
> Assume this is a campaign where weapons must be purchased with 
> character points.  The blade is somewhat more costly than is typical 
> in terms of active points, with a minor illumination spell imbued 
> within it.  With the blade's new One-and-a-Half Handed Limitation, 
> the real cost is reduced by a full point.  The player asks that the 
> point saved be given back to her so she can spend it on one her 
> skills.  Should the GM comply? 
 
This is why I don't like the 'x-handed' limitation.  It doesn't make a 
whole lot of sense. 
  
> I would rather the whole issue of hand-and-a-half not be treated as a 
> Limitation applied to certain weapons.  It is simply a feature of 
> many one-handed weapons--swords, axes, clubs, and so on.  You can 
> hold a dagger in both hands if you want, perhaps to make sure you 
> don't lose your grip.  Her sword's new, longer handgrip is just a 
> colorful campaign detail, of no greater importance than the shape of 
> the fuller cut along the blade's length or the decorative enameling 
> on crossguard and pommel.  The rogue's investment in modifying her 
> blade is just an interesting way of spending her money and down-time, 
> not an issue of game mechanics. 
 
This is the best way to go.  Don't worry about the handed lim unless it is 
really important to the weapon. 
  
> Getting back to the fight example, if the GM permits her tactic, what 
> changes for her? 
 
See above.  I made comments about how to handle this. 
 
> Thinking over all this two-handed grip business, I like the 
> consistency of a +5 STR change for MA maneuvers and a -5 for STR Min. 
>  Easy to remember.  And I want that rogue to gain a damage bonus with 
> her sword.  She'll likely need it.      
 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:07:25 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Len Carpenter writes: 
>  
> > A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a 
> > typical long sword.  By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3 
> > feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to 
> > accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches.  The GM treats 
> > this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, 
>  
> This is a mistake; it is not a broadsword.  The (nonexistant outside of 
> D&D) broadsword has a much larger hilt and a wider blade -- think Conan's 
> sword.  This is a long sword. 
 
Uh... what?  Rat, this makes no sense.  The term s 'broadsword' is 
commonly applied to a wide variety of weapons, specifically Norse swords 
of the 8th to 10th C and Scottish basket-hilted swords of c. 1500-1650. 
I've never seen the term 'longsword' outside of an AD&D book.  My 
reference books use terms like broadsword and cut and thrust sword. 
  
> Regardless, special effects say that it is a 1-handed weapon; it cannot be 
> wielded effectively with two hands.  The extra hand adds no leverage, and 
> hinders the free movement of the other arm, especially the wrist, which is 
> the source of much of the impetus behind a one-handed blade. 
 
Not it's not.  The wrist is great for fencers, but a broadsword fighter 
gets a *lot* of his impetus from his hips.  At least if he does it right. 
  
> At this point I have to ask, if she knows the guy is stronger and better, 
> why is she standing there waiting to be chopped up into kibble? 
 
Maybe she doesn't have a choice? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:14:14 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
At 12:42 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>>  The 
>> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it. 
 
Although I'm very bored by this discussion, please call it No Range 
Penalty.  That is what you are discussing, right?  Every time I see NRM I 
have to remember what you all are talking about. 
 
Second, I have to disagree with Filksinger (and most others).  You are 0 
OCV against a target at range if you cannot make a targetted PER roll 
against the target.  If the special effect was sufficient to allow the NRP 
advantage on the power then the power will hit if the attacker makes a 0 
OCV attack against the target.  That is how the game mechanic works.  You 
are arguing against the game mechanic.  If you don't like it, don't allow 
NRP on the power in question. 
 
>{This is Rat, I think- jm] 
>> Again, this has nothing to do with NRM.  Ditto for the rest of your 
>> "points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the 
>> power. 
> 
>OK, fine. Now, my original post asked how you would model those "issues". 
You have made it 
>clear that you wouldn't model them by tampering in any way with NRM, but 
you haven't 
>answered the original question - how should they be modeled? 
 
No, there are no issues.  The special effect of power made NRP make sense. 
This implies that it will work.  If you are saying that this circumstance 
is not covered by the special effect, but NRP still makes sense, put a 
limitation on the advantage: Must make PER roll against target. (-1/2) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:31:17 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 7 
 
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 11:57 AM 6/4/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed. 
> >But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about 
> >STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage).  But, I seriously doubt 
> >a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to 
> >effectively use a halberd with one hand. 
>  
> It's hard for me not to think that this doubt is primarily rooted in the 
> fact that it's hard to find test subjects with 21+ STR to attempt such usage 
> in the first place. :] 
 
Yes, and the fact that the damn thing is over 7' long most of the time. 
  
> >Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble 
> >arises.  It's unbalanced and clumsy. 
>  
> I've tried it ... it is a little clumsy, but I'd just as easily attribute 
> that to my own weak arm and the inherent -3 OCV from me being an untrained 
> combatant. Specifically, it feels LESS unbalanced and clumsy to me than the 
> one-handed (museum replica) broadswords a friend of mine owns -- given six 
> months to train, I think I'd handle the broomstick BETTER. 
 
Funny.  My Spanish broadsword feels pretty balanced.  I'd just need some 
time to train with it.  I've also picked up some sweetly balanced replica 
swords that I could whip around like they were nothing. 
 
Of course, my broadsword has a grip that's a touch to long, making me want 
to swing it two-handed.  ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept. 
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:54:07 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
 
> Darrin Kelley wrote: 
>  
> >     My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar 
> > crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And 
> > suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements 
> > actually work together effectively. 
>  
>  
 
Well, i'm currently working on a page based around a bunch of 
interdimensional mercenaries. Some of the more interesing concepts are 
priests that worships a warp generator (which still partially works and 
looks just like one of the nacell's off enterprise. . .um. . d.. i think. . 
), and a group of smurfs taking over a space station al la 'diehard'. . .  
 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:07:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Steve Long's Original Mental Combat Maneuvers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
 
> >O.K, I know it's been a while, but I was just able to scare up 
> >file with Long's Mental Combat Maneuvers.  Without further ado: 
> 
>    Thanks for finding and posting these, Tim.  I don't currently have a 
> full-fledged mentalist in my group (Rattler hardly counts), but if I do I'm 
> going to want to have these available. 
 
	I actually wrote this up a month or two ago, but did it through my 
Netscape Mail instead of my normal Unix shell with Pine.  Since I've 
switched connections, I've been using a second e-mail account, and when I 
set it up I ended up (finally) sending this.  I was trying to figure out 
why it appeared here so long after I posted it.  Slip on my part. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo www05.netaddress.usa.net from filkhero@usa.net server @www05.netaddress.usa.net ip 204.68.24.25 
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 03:09:57 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
<snip> 
>  
> Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the 
> shield. 
 
Agreed. 
 
> Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields 
> in their other hands.  In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major 
> hero or villain to do so.  This is the baseline that Hero is working from. 
 
Agreed. 
 
> Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of 
> your hands are occupied is a disadvantage. 
 
Agreed. 
 
> Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2 
> limitation, according to Hero.  That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon" 
> limitation means. 
 
Agreed. 
 
> Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0 
> limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4.  That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half 
> weapon" limitation means. 
 
At any time you can _choose_ to not be Limited in this fashion, simply 
by using the weapon one-handed. If you do this, the weapon 
becomes identical to the baseline, which is a one-handed weapon. 
Therefore, since you can _choose_ to make it identical to a 
one-handed weapon at all times, no exception, then at any time you 
can refuse to accept the "Limitation". A Limitation you can ignore at 
will is not a Limitation, and is worth nothing. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from pavlish@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Incompetent Players 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:22:02 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
 
 
> From: aregalad@miami.edu 
> 
> No need to punish the character for the players actions. :] 
> (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent). 
> 
> 
> Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in 
six > games 
> (short campaign) he was the only one whose character died. 
> 
> And he died five times. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
 
Well, In several games that I got involved with, we had a guy who always built 
up the super powerful martial artist who was supposed to out do everyone else. 
And in never stopped amazing me how every combat session ran the exact same. 
 
begining of combat 
 
incompotent player: Delayed at first, then kicked, then usually got vital shot 
and was out for the entire rest of the combat.  It was a running joke in our 
games.... 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:45:44 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
> >   Losing track of his environment is just SFX.  What happened in game 
> terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something 
> that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then 
> trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn 
> Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall. 
> (I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)< 
> 
> Skill levels in Flight?  Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels 
> to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be? 
> 
> I had a villain who *almost* went splat against the side of a 
> building....he decelerated and turned as quick as he could, and ended up 
> flying parallel to the wall in the adjacent hex...whew!  I don't think I've 
> ever had an actual "splat" episode though. 
 
  I splated once. (Sheepish grin) I had a "Captain Marvel" kinda fellow, 
actually he was more like a Green Lantern who did nothing more with his ring 
than fly and enhance his abilities to super human levels; anyway, Purple Haze 
thought he was invulnerable to everything and tried outlandish combat ideas. In 
this instance he attempted a 50" Pushed non-combat move through on a ninja 
agent. I failed to "suprise" the ninja, I was createing a lot of noise and oh 
yea, I glowed bright purple. He threw me to the ground and I made a big hole. 
He was stunned, unconscious, losing body and had hallucinations of his mother 
coming back from the dead to tell me how stupid he was......It was pretty 
funny. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail-gw6.pacbell.net from psihawk@pacbell.net server @mail-gw6.pacbell.net ip 206.13.28.41 
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:09:48 -0700 
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts 
From: "Albert Deschesne" <Psihawk@pacbell.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
>   As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed 
>recommend this.  The OAF means that each item can be taken away during 
>combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire 
>belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff on 
>it. 
>   That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic.  No 
 
 The problem I have with this is, is say you have a 30 pt MP for your gadget 
belt and I take away your 30 pt change environment flashlight, can you still 
use the rest of you pool since I now have 30 pts. of your power? 
 
Albert Deschesne 
Gamemaster of the Metaverse 
http://members.aol.com/Adeschesne 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo iquest3.iquest.net from bastet@iquest.net server @iquest3.iquest.net ip 209.43.20.203 
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:24:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
> At 07:08 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Tim Statler wrote: 
> >The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit 
> >in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading 
> >this I could use another opinion.) 
>  
>    A person is normally immune to one's own odor; that's how people who 
> develop incredible body odors, either as an affliction or due to poor 
> hygiene, can stand to be around themselves.  Thus, the Pak could be immune 
> to the unpleasantness of their own odors (at no point cost). 
 
The main thing I remember about the Pak is that they were supposed to have 
a very strong sense of honor.  And it came out in the fifth season they 
could not eat certain things.  I think Bob has a good point here. 
 
>    After seven years, if I recall correctly (which would put the next 
> conflict somewhere between the end of the B5 cycle and the beginning of the 
> Crusade cycle). 
>    And on the top of the Drazi, I'm starting to suspect that they don't 
> have personal names.  Ever hear one addressed or referred to by name?  The 
> Drazi ambassador is just "The Drazi Ambassador."  I don't know that this 
> would be reflected in Hero terms, but it's an interesting point. 
 
I'm not sure of this.  I don't remember any Brakiri being named either. 
They could be addressed by title though, or function.  I know part of what 
made Japanese history confusing at times was that people would be 
addressed by title rather than personal or family name in accounts of the 
period and when that title changed, they would be addressed by the new 
title. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:24:19 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
 
>    I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making 
> hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed" 
> -1/4 Limitations. 
 
	Not I.  I suggested allowing one-handed weapons to be used two 
handed as well with a -4 or 5 to the STR min compared to the -2 of the 1.5 
handers.  This of course would have to be mixed with a "cannot be used 
two-handed" lim for really small weapons, daggers come to mind, for, say, 
a -1/4. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:27:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
 
>    On the face of it, I wouldn't like this idea; but considering you've 
 
	Well, like I said, I thought this was the *only* way for quite a 
while. 
 
> playtested it extensively (by virtue of having thought for a long time that 
> this was how it was already supposed to be done), I do like it, though the 
> reason you give above is the only real reason for me to like it.  (I guess 
 
	Which reason?  Reduced reliance on KAs for high stun possibility? 
 
> I'd have to playtest it for myself, probably in a fantasy setting where 
> Killing and Normal attacks would, by genre, exist side-by-side at about 
> 50/50 proportions.) 
 
	I used this in a 4-color champs campaign.  One benefit is that 
Bricks with really high resitent def actually have a reason to buy more 
resestent def than, say, 24.  (That's max BOD on a 4d6 KA).  It also makes 
building a character that can literally bounce bullets much easier.  (That 
2d6 KA will max out at 60 STUN, 30 PD, 30 rPD bounces it.) 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo orac.early.com from redlion@early.com server root@orac.early.com ip 204.170.83.2 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions 
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:36:44 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
(material snipped) 
 
On June 4th, Michael Surbrook replied: 
 
> No, I'd try to go with the flow and run with the PC being 
heroic/creative. 
> One can sorta grip a broadsword with two hands, especially if it is a 
> later period sword.  The problem is that it's not a very comfortable way 
> to hold the weapon, and you end up cupping the pommel in your off hand. 
> I'd say that the lady rogue gets a +3 bonus to holding the weapons 
> (instead of a full +5 STR).  She might also be ablew to get a simlar 
bonus 
> to the STR min to have a chance of doing lsightly more damage (the 
problem 
> is that your grip isn't going to give the the leverage you need.  You 
have 
> a tighter grip on the weapon, but the hilt isn't long enough to allow one 
> to take advantage of using it two handed). 
 
I'm a generous guy, so I would grant her the +5 STR bonus and a +1 DC 
bonus, but only for the duration of a short melee.  With time, the awkward 
grip would become very uncomfortable and would progressively weaken.  It's 
a tactic that would grant measurable benefits for a couple of game turns, 
but not throughout a lengthy battle. 
 
>> I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons.  A 
>> baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any 
>> average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two.  A 
>> bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few 
>> inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands, 
>> though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only 
>> seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true 
>> two-handed sword). 
 
> Uh... bastard swords look to thave gips up two 12" long.  I've seen great 
> swords with up to 18" of grip.  Certain German zwiehanders even had 
> portions of the blade blunted and wrapped in leather to further increase 
> the gripable area. 
 
One description of swords with a seven-inch grip comes from Ewart 
Oakeshott's A Knight and His Weapons.  These "hand-and-a-half" swords came 
into popularity in the latter half of the 14th Century.  Such a "long 
sword" (Oakeshott uses that very phrase, and I doubt he ever played D&D) 
became truly distinct after about 1420 from the short sword or "arming 
sword."  Often on horseback, the knight would wear his arming sword at his 
belt, with his long sword fastened to the front of his saddle.  This 
horseman's weapon was also called a "war sword," shorter than the true 
two-hander with a twelve-inch grip and about fifty inches length in the 
blade.  Oakeshott goes into much greater d