Week Ending June 20, 1998

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From: "John Desmarais" <john.desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:42:48 +0500 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <john.desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:19:01 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>Okay, the character in question, through the use of Kirby science, 
>Clairmont and Comic Book Physics, carrys around a small box containing a 
>bunch of little capsules.  Hit the button and toss the capsule and 'pop' 
>instant gadget!  Now, one can cram almost *anything* into one of these. 
>Guns, swords, cars, planes, a boat, a refrigerator full of beer, a small 
>house... anything.   
> 
>I built this power like this: 
> 
>175	HoiPoi Capsules: Variable Power Pool (100 Point Pool) 
>	No Skill Roll (+1), Can Change Powers as 0 Phase Action (+1),  
>	IIF: HoiPoi Capsules (-1/4), Gestures (must throw) (-1/4) 
> 
>Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
>and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
>pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
>Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
 
As a GM I generally wouldn't allow vehicles or bases to be bought through a pool (or  
any other perk for that matter). Now, as for how you get the effect your after... hmm... 
 
Vehicles: Forget the fact that it's a vehicle and instead concentrate on what you're  
trying to do.  As an example: Want to carry a bunch of folks through the air?  How about  
enough TK to lift the folks in question, a force wall bubble just large enough to contain  
everyone, and the rest of the points in flight: special effect = airplane.  (Yeah, I know, it's  
not perfect, but it is does have the advantage of being entirely kosher within the rules). 
 
Bases: Eh, similar nonsense to my vehicle. 
 
btw, not to nitpick, but shouldn't that pool cost 200 points? 
 
Power Pool = 100 
Control = (50 * 3) / 1.5 = 100 
 
Pool + Control = 200 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais	 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:45:02 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > > 15	Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual 
> >  
> > Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and 
> > beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have. 
>  
> How is it a DF?  A DF is something most people can spot just by looking at 
> you. 
 
Well, Western Hero suggests using Distinctive Features to represent 
membership in a group which faces discrimination. I only specifically 
remember them mentioning visible minorities, granted, but I don't think 
it's too much of a stretch to extend it to other groups (who would of 
course take it at the "Easily concealable" level). 
 
Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:49:52 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > > DR. MANHATTAN 
> > > (Jon Osterman) 
> > >  
> > > Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
> > > 75	STR	65	24-	800 tons; 15d6 
> >  
> > I don't know that he ever displays great physical strength, except when 
> > he's grown to immense size. (But then, why would he need to?) 
>  
> Actually he does.  In Chapter 1, when Rorschach is in his lab, we see him 
> casually lift some immense machine while Rorschach and Silk Spectre II 
> talk. 
 
So he does. Seems a bit out of character, though. 
 
> > > 50	INT	40	19-	PER Roll 19- 
> >  
> > Did the accident actually increase his intelligence? 
>  
> Possibly.  But, INT isn't so much a measure of 'smarts' as fast thinking. 
> He can watch neutrinos at play, he needs a pretty good INT to process that 
> sort of data. 
 
I'll buy that. 
 
> > > 30	PRE	20	15-	PRE Attack: 6d6 
> >  
> > This may actually be too low. 
>  
> Hmm... dunno.  This is the base Doctor, it doesn't count what happens when 
> he grows to 60 plus feet high (or melts a tank). 
 
True, but read Hollis Mason's description of meeting Manhattan for the 
first time at a fundraising event of some kind. (From the last excerpt 
from Under the Hood, last page.) 
 
> > > 15	Physical Limitation: All actions are predetermined 
> >  
> > I'd write this up as a Psychological Limitation. After all, the only 
> > difference between Manhattan and everybody else is that he _knows_ his 
> > actions are predetermined. 
>  
> Yes, but he can't use an EGO roll to do something *not* predetermined, now 
> can he? 
 
No, but neither can anybody else. 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:52:56 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
 
> I am increasingly fond of removing the 'usable against others' power entirely 
> -- use another power. 
 
Yep. Usable Against Others is pretty much inherently a crock. Teleport 
and XDM would probably need to include some sort of mechanic for making 
them usable against others in the actual Power description (alternately, 
a new Power(s) could be created for this purpose). Any other use for 
UAO can be done with another, more appropriate Power. 
 
> In many cases this will be transform. 
 
Or Telekinesis. 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:54:45 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Moloch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> 50	'Mastermind' option (allows Molch to use 250 pts for bases, 
> 	followers and vehicles) 
 
I don't believe the "Mastermind option" made it into 4th Edition... and 
as I recall, the 3rd Edition Mastermind option allowed the villain to 
have a base, etc equal in total points to his or her own point total. 
In Moloch's case, that's less than 250. 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:53:58 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> > > > 30	PRE	20	15-	PRE Attack: 6d6 
> > >  
> > > This may actually be too low. 
> >  
> > Hmm... dunno.  This is the base Doctor, it doesn't count what happens when 
> > he grows to 60 plus feet high (or melts a tank). 
>  
> True, but read Hollis Mason's description of meeting Manhattan for the 
> first time at a fundraising event of some kind. (From the last excerpt 
> from Under the Hood, last page.) 
 
I upped the Doc's EGO to 30 and his PRE to 40. 
  
> > > > 15	Physical Limitation: All actions are predetermined 
> > >  
> > > I'd write this up as a Psychological Limitation. After all, the only 
> > > difference between Manhattan and everybody else is that he _knows_ his 
> > > actions are predetermined. 
> >  
> > Yes, but he can't use an EGO roll to do something *not* predetermined, now 
> > can he? 
>  
> No, but neither can anybody else. 
 
If this was a PC, this disad would kill all spontinaity of the character. 
A lot of Dr. M's stats are negated by this disad.  He dosn't save Kennedy, 
he doesn't save Comedian from getting his face slashed, he doesn't save 
the woman Comedian shoots.  He can't make an Ego roll to do something 
different 'just this once'.  This Phys lim forces the GM to map out the 
doctor's reactions in advance, as opposed to making an Ego roll to abort 
to some 'other' action.  Basiaclly, I feel this Phys Lim makes Dr. M a 
'puppet' removing him from the equation of 'what if the PCs do 'X'' be 
cuase the Dr. M will never do anything the GM doesn't want him to.  Unlike 
other GMPC which *may* react based on Psych Lims in an 'unwanted matter'.   
 
Does this make sense? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:55:36 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> > > > 15	Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual 
> > >  
> > > Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and 
> > > beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have. 
> >  
> > How is it a DF?  A DF is something most people can spot just by looking at 
> > you. 
>  
> Well, Western Hero suggests using Distinctive Features to represent 
> membership in a group which faces discrimination. I only specifically 
> remember them mentioning visible minorities, granted, but I don't think 
> it's too much of a stretch to extend it to other groups (who would of 
> course take it at the "Easily concealable" level). 
 
Hmm... possibly.  Persoanlly, I prefer using SID right now.  Once 
discovered it could become a DF (or a Reputation). 
  
> Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
> society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
> is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
 
Right now.  I thik 5th Edition needs to work on this. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:57:16 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Moloch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > 50	'Mastermind' option (allows Molch to use 250 pts for bases, 
> > 	followers and vehicles) 
>  
> I don't believe the "Mastermind option" made it into 4th Edition... and 
> as I recall, the 3rd Edition Mastermind option allowed the villain to 
> have a base, etc equal in total points to his or her own point total. 
> In Moloch's case, that's less than 250. 
 
Actually the Mastermind option reappears in Gold Age of Champions.  This 
is not meant to be that sort of option (note the '' around the word).  In 
effect, I cheated a bit and just handed MMoloch a pool of 50 points to use 
for whatever he needs.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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*************************************************************************** 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:08:12 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> If this was a PC, this disad would kill all spontinaity of the character. 
> A lot of Dr. M's stats are negated by this disad.  He dosn't save 
Kennedy, 
> he doesn't save Comedian from getting his face slashed, he doesn't save 
> the woman Comedian shoots.  He can't make an Ego roll to do something 
> different 'just this once'.  This Phys lim forces the GM to map out the 
> doctor's reactions in advance, as opposed to making an Ego roll to abort 
> to some 'other' action.  Basiaclly, I feel this Phys Lim makes Dr. M a 
> 'puppet' removing him from the equation of 'what if the PCs do 'X'' be 
> cuase the Dr. M will never do anything the GM doesn't want him to.  
Unlike 
> other GMPC which *may* react based on Psych Lims in an 'unwanted matter'. 
  
>  
> Does this make sense? 
>  
 
this is the difference between a character and a pc, or even a character 
and 
an npc. For instance, i could suggest that making the doc infinite in power 
in any rpg would be unfair to any other cosmis types wandering around.  
You might suggest that he'd only be present in otherwise low-power 
settings,  
but the point remains- is this a portrayal of a character simply for 
observations sake,  
or is knows everything boy actually gonna turn up in a cappaign?  
 
 
 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion 
*  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                
*  
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        
*    
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             
* 
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            
* 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark 
* 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
>  
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:19:01 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Okay, the character in question, through the use of Kirby science, 
Clairmont and Comic Book Physics, carrys around a small box containing a 
bunch of little capsules.  Hit the button and toss the capsule and 'pop' 
instant gadget!  Now, one can cram almost *anything* into one of these. 
Guns, swords, cars, planes, a boat, a refrigerator full of beer, a small 
house... anything.   
 
I built this power like this: 
 
175	HoiPoi Capsules: Variable Power Pool (100 Point Pool) 
	No Skill Roll (+1), Can Change Powers as 0 Phase Action (+1),  
	IIF: HoiPoi Capsules (-1/4), Gestures (must throw) (-1/4) 
 
Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hard Light Heroes.  
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:22:36 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
2157. Hyper-technology and megacorperations rule over filthy streets  
peopled with cyber-trash and the occasional beaver who took the wrong turn 
at the tubeway. Injustice runs rampant, guns are clearly overused, who will 
step into  
this fray? 
Well, a superheroic poser gang of course! Dressed in guady outfits and 
skilled in martial arts and cyberware, a band of stalwart do-gooders take 
to the streets  
and try to make a difference!  
and fail 
MISerably.  
Several months later, while working on bizzare subspacial generation 
technology,  
one of their members dissapear, and then they all do. A month or two after 
THAT,  
their abandoned super-persona turn up on the streets again- with POWER.  
Ya know, bullet-bouncing, tank lifting, bomb swallowing power. 
It seems this guy has stumbled upon a great breakthrough- secure Hard-light 
Hologramatic generators. With them his friends and he can leap into some  
virtual reality couches and control a pack of physically improbable super 
beings.  
It's like a computer game in the real world. Now, my questions are,  
 
how would you protray this? I figured duplication but *shrug* 
 
What kind of powers could they have, and what kind will they all have? 
(i'm interested both in what people think a hard light hologram can do,  
and what it will do automatically) 
 
What kind of lmits can you think of? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Enslave humanity willya?" 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:07:52 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>One of my groups wanted to do a Danger Room, but we found the entire  
>concept grossly underspecified.  IIRC, there was a more extensive  
>discussion in Champions III of Danger Rooms, but my copy is packed away  
>somewhere.   
 
Champions III did indeed devote 15 pages to the design and construction of 
danger rooms and their contents; you may want to dig out your copy. 
According to the article, there are four main types of equipment in a 
Danger Room:  weapons, robots, traps (including Surrounding Traps, Covering 
Traps and Grabbing Traps and walls.   
 
The article describes how to set the Danger Room's base Lethality, 
Accuracy, Toughness and Speed parameters -- without once using the phrase 
"dials and switches" ;) -- upon entering the room.  You can use the Danger 
Room for individual or team practice, exercise, or you can wager XPTS.  I 
found this last to be kind of a silly idea, myself. 
 
The Danger Room article really should be rewritten for 4th/5th Edition.  In 
its current (Champions III) form, the cost of the room is determined by 
adding up the max value of the four ratings (Lethality, Accuracy, Toughness 
and Speed...the Danger Room's LATS number, perhaps?) and dividing by two, 
rather than being based on what's actually in the room.  The contents of 
the room (robots, walls, etc.) is determined by *die roll*, as is the 
combat capability of each item.  The Danger Room really should produce 
these attacks/obstacles from a VPP. 
 
BASE RATINGS VALUES FOR THE DANGER ROOM 
Lethality = Character's Largest Defense / 3 
Accuracy  = Character's Maximum DCV (incl. Dodge) / 2 
Toughness = Character's Maximum Damage in D6 (incl. Push) / 2 
Speed     = Character's SPD 
 
Oh, BTW, the mention of Champions III prompted me to look for other 
references to bases and such.  Steve Peterson describes "The Ultimate Base" 
in Adventurer's Club #26.  This article was supposed to have appeared in 
"Enemies Assemble!" but it was cut for space considerations.  Six pages 
detail the Ultimate Mastermind's 32,000 hex base, with its Command Level, 
Residence Level, Research Level, Manufacturing Level, and Physical Plant 
all tucked away under a mountain. 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:11:10 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>  
> At 10:44 PM 6/11/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
> > 
> >        In my current campaign, my PC's have a base.  They have been trying 
> >to come up 
> >with ideas on how to spend the points for the base.  Any suggestions for 
> them? 
>  
> Danger Room. 
 
One of my groups wanted to do a Danger Room, but we found the entire  
concept grossly underspecified.  IIRC, there was a more extensive  
discussion in Champions III of Danger Rooms, but my copy is packed away  
somewhere.  What are people's suggestions and experiences for pointing  
up a Danger Room?   
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:27:26 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Here's an exercise in thought.  (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes to 
> the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!) 
>    What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might 
> have the Hunted Disadvantage?  These are the ones I can come up with: 
> [major snip] 
 
Unrequited Love turned Obsession: the Hunter is someone who is in love  
with the Hero, but the Hero does not reciprocate.  This is quite amusing  
as a mystery hunted.  One of my PCs, who is not on good terms with  
Law Enforcement, wokes up one morning to find lipstick on his cheek and a  
giftwrapped box on his pillow.  Of course, the present was a valuable  
antique from a recent robbery, which complicated things greatly. 
 
"Scientific" Interest: the Hunter wants to perform some experiments:  
possibly to duplicate some power the Hero has, or because the Hunter  
believes that the Hero can provide a needed component.  Whatever it is,  
it will not be pleasant for the Hero.  You can even make the goal  
sympathetic, even if the means are not: Red Dragon wants to cure his  
daughter of a dreadful disease, but the proposed cure requires an extract  
from Mr. Wizard's brain that will leave Mr. Wizard a mental vegetable. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:27:42 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Reply-To: jimalj@best.com 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
> and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
> pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
> Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
 
There are two completely official ways I can see to do this:  first is to buy 
the vehicle and then give it enough Shrinking to be the size of the pill.  The 
Shrinking would need 0 END, possibly Persistent, and I can't think of too many 
limitations for it.  Perhaps it could take Full Power Only for -1/4, and 
possibly be put in a multipower with some other function of the vehicle that it 
doesn't have when shrunk.  You may also need Shape Change into pill form.  Ugh. 
 
The other is to buy everything you want the vehicle to do, presumably including 
movement and defenses, in the Variable Pool and buy it so that it can carry 
other people.  Don't be surprised if you just don't have enough points, even 
with a hundred. 
 
Perhaps you could buy the vehicle as a Summoning, and buy it seperately as a 
vehicle to get rid of the whole "summoned creature is hostile" problem.  Some 
will view this as using Summoning to teleport a character to you, though, and 
wonder where the vehicle is in the interim, and things like that. 
 
On my Incomplete Characters page, I have a Friendly advantage for Summoning 
(not originally my idea, but I don't remember where that one came from).  In my 
version, it would be a +1/4 advantage to Summon a friendly vehicle.  You'd then 
have to leave the Pool in the Summoning power until such time as you sent it 
away. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
www.javaman.to/hero.html 
www.javaman.to/incomp.html 
 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:44:42 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Reply-To: jimalj@best.com 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> how would you protray this? I figured duplication but *shrug* 
 
The main problem with Duplication is that the Superhero will disappear when the 
power is unplugged (at least, I would expect it to, considering your 
description).  This is far more expensive to buy than it is probably worth 
under the official rules, the more obvious ways to buy it.  Possibly use 
Extradimensional Movement and have them disappear into nothingness, triggered 
when the power is unplugged, but that would require GM permission, as it is 
"abusive" (I use quotes because it gets the job done, but in a way that is 
quite inexpensive, and could be abusive if used in other contexts), and many 
are reticent to use it that way.  If you have a Mind Link with the Duplicate, 
the Trigger could be set to go off based on the Mind Link. 
 
An interesting note is that, no matter what, the holograms would be the primary 
character, and would purchase the cyberpunks as the duplicates, as they will be 
presumably the higher point characters. 
 
Another problem is that, you need to be sure to have an explanation for why it 
is that the hologram dies permanently.  I wouldn't expect this to be too hard. 
The alternative is to have a very expensive set of abilities to bring it back 
to life. 
 
Lastly, you could have a Summoning/Follower combination or a Friendly 
Summoning.  Have a Mind Link with the summoned "superhero" and have a Side 
Effect of Mental Illusions on the Summoning:  you see what the superhero sees, 
are effectively there.  This is a limitation because it leaves the cyberpunk 
immobile and helpless, the Mind Link power is what causes the information to be 
transmitted.  The Summoning would be bought with an Immobile Focus as well. 
Make sure the base is well defended. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
www.javaman.to/hero.html 
www.javaman.to/incomp.html 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes. 
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:46:28 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> > how would you protray this? I figured duplication but *shrug* 
>  
> The main problem with Duplication is that the Superhero will disappear 
when the 
> power is unplugged (at least, I would expect it to, considering your 
> description).  This is far more expensive to buy than it is probably 
worth 
> under the official rules, the more obvious ways to buy it.  Possibly use 
> Extradimensional Movement and have them disappear into nothingness, 
triggered 
> when the power is unplugged, but that would require GM permission, as it 
is 
> "abusive" (I use quotes because it gets the job done, but in a way that 
is 
> quite inexpensive, and could be abusive if used in other contexts), and 
many 
> are reticent to use it that way.  If you have a Mind Link with the 
Duplicate, 
> the Trigger could be set to go off based on the Mind Link. 
>  
 
Well, that actually works in well with the sci-fi-esque basis of the power. 
 
The data is beamed through subspace, and when one takes the physical form  
offline a net-like 'avatar' is left in subspace momentarily. The other idea 
i had was desolid leading up to a teleport. . . 
 
> An interesting note is that, no matter what, the holograms would be the 
primary 
> character, and would purchase the cyberpunks as the duplicates, as they 
will be 
> presumably the higher point characters. 
>  
 
That's one of my problems. These things are indestructable (virtually)  
but if they die. . i guess the feedback would take their controller  
offline, i.e. blow out his frontal lobe. Hmmm, more of a risk is cool. . . 
 
> Another problem is that, you need to be sure to have an explanation for 
why it 
> is that the hologram dies permanently.  I wouldn't expect this to be too 
hard. 
> The alternative is to have a very expensive set of abilities to bring it 
back 
> to life. 
>  
 
Yeah. . .special rare power crystal burns out, ect. . . 
 
> Lastly, you could have a Summoning/Follower combination or a Friendly 
> Summoning.  Have a Mind Link with the summoned "superhero" and have a 
Side 
> Effect of Mental Illusions on the Summoning:  you see what the superhero 
sees, 
> are effectively there.  This is a limitation because it leaves the 
cyberpunk 
> immobile and helpless, the Mind Link power is what causes the information 
to be 
> transmitted.  The Summoning would be bought with an Immobile Focus as 
well. 
> Make sure the base is well defended. 
>  
 
Oh hell yes. in orbit or something. I was thinking of making it it in a 
safe zone,  
, but i might just make it semi-vunerable. .  
 
 
 
> JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
> www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
> www.javaman.to/hero.html 
> www.javaman.to/incomp.html 
>  
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:03:05 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, happyelf wrote: 
 
<snip> 
 
> this is the difference between a character and a pc, or even a character 
> and 
> an npc. For instance, i could suggest that making the doc infinite in power 
> in any rpg would be unfair to any other cosmis types wandering around.  
> You might suggest that he'd only be present in otherwise low-power 
> settings,  
> but the point remains- is this a portrayal of a character simply for 
> observations sake,  
> or is knows everything boy actually gonna turn up in a cappaign?  
 
Does it matter?  I wrote him up purely for 'observations sake'.  If 
someone wants to use him, go right ahead.  I have no idea if anyone ever 
uses any of the character adaptions I post to the list, and I don't care 
if anyone does.  They are written up for my amusement. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:09:42 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:19 AM 6/14/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
>and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
>pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
>Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
 
   Not really, though some of my early notes for TUG lets a gadgeteer have 
Vehicles as part of a Gadget Pool.  Just treat the vehicle as though it 
were already OAF (as part of the 5:1 cost ratio), assume most other 
Limitations are only in regards to bringing the vehicle into being, and go 
from there. 
   BTW, this is what Dave and I have come to call a Walking Department 
Store Pool, from Steven Today's desription of Shag from the Road Rovers. 
Shag is, perhaps, the ultimate cartoon Walking Department Store; he's 
pulled all sorts of things from under his fur, including a laptop computer, 
a rocket launcher, a sofa and matching loveseat, and (on two separate 
occasions) teammates. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:13:11 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:27 PM 6/13/1998 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote: 
>> Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
>> and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
>> pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
>> Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
> 
>There are two completely official ways I can see to do this:  first is to buy 
>the vehicle and then give it enough Shrinking to be the size of the pill. 
The 
>Shrinking would need 0 END, possibly Persistent, and I can't think of too 
many 
>limitations for it.  Perhaps it could take Full Power Only for -1/4, and 
>possibly be put in a multipower with some other function of the vehicle 
that it 
>doesn't have when shrunk.  You may also need Shape Change into pill form. 
Ugh. 
 
   I don't think this is really necessary.  From what I gather, the vehicle 
is basically useless until drawn from the Pool, so everything that would be 
covered by Shrinking, Shape Shift, and such can be written off as Special 
Effects (since there's no real benefit that isn't already paid for with the 
Pool Control Cost. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:45:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
> btw, not to nitpick, but shouldn't that pool cost 200 points? 
>  
> Power Pool = 100 
> Control = (50 * 3) / 1.5 = 100 
>  
> Pool + Control = 200 
 
Actually, I missed a limitation on that write up.  It should look like 
this: 
 
175	HoiPoi Capsules: Variable Power Pool (100 Point Pool) 
	No Skill Roll (+1), Can Change Powers as 0 Phase Action (+1),  
	Limited SFX: 'Normal' gadgets (-1/2), IIF: HoiPoi Capsules (-1/4),  
	Gestures (must throw) (-1/4) 
 
The Limited SFX means that she can only haul out 'real world' stuff. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 12:19 AM 6/14/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
> >and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
> >pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
> >Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
>  
>    Not really, though some of my early notes for TUG lets a gadgeteer have 
> Vehicles as part of a Gadget Pool.  Just treat the vehicle as though it 
> were already OAF (as part of the 5:1 cost ratio), assume most other 
> Limitations are only in regards to bringing the vehicle into being, and go 
> from there. 
 
Umm... Explain, please.  Do you mean I just set aside part of the pool 
(say 50 points) and buy a 250 point vehicle?.   
 
>    BTW, this is what Dave and I have come to call a Walking Department 
> Store Pool, from Steven Today's desription of Shag from the Road Rovers. 
> Shag is, perhaps, the ultimate cartoon Walking Department Store; he's 
> pulled all sorts of things from under his fur, including a laptop computer, 
> a rocket launcher, a sofa and matching loveseat, and (on two separate 
> occasions) teammates. 
 
I like that bit.  Very cartoonish.  There have been a few other characters 
from other gneres with similar powers. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:51:38 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Silk Spectre II 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
"'Silk Specter's' too girly, y'know?   
Plus, I want a better costume, that protects me:  
maybe something leather, with a mask over my face... 
Also, I oughta carry a gun." 
 
SILK SPECTRE II 
(Laurel Jane Juspeczyk) 
 
Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
13	STR	3	12-	150kg; 2 1/2d6 
20	DEX	30	13-	OCV: 7 / DCV: 7 
13	CON	6	12-	 
10	BODY	0	11-	 
18	INT	8	13-	PER Roll 13- 
13	EGO	6	12-	ECV: 4 
18	PRE	8	13-	PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6 
18	COM	4	13-	 
6	PD	3		Total: 6 PD 
5	ED	2		Total: 5 ED 
3	SPD	0		Phases: 4, 8, 12 
6	REC	0		 
26	END	0		 
25	STUN	1		 
Total Characteristics Cost: 70 
 
Movement:	Running: 7" / 14" 
		Swimming: 2" / 4" 
 
Cost	Powers & Skills 
Combat Training: 
6	Combat Skill Levels: +2 with Karate 
	Martial Art: Karate 
	Maneuver		OCV	DCV	Damage 
4	Block			+2	+2	Block, Abort 
4	Disarm			-1	+1	23 STR Disarm 
4	Dodge			--	+5	Dodge vs all, Abort 
4	Punch, Snap Kick	+0	+2	4 1/2d6 Strike 
5	Side/Spin Kick		-2	+1	6 1/d6 Strike 
 
Background Skills: 
2	Running: +1" (7" Total) 
3	Acrobatics 13- 
3	Breakfall 13- 
3	Climbing 13- 
3	Conversation 13- 
3	Deduction 13- 
3	High Society 13- 
1	KS: Law 8- 
1	KS: Police Procedure 8- 
3	Persuasion 
1	WF: Pistol 
53	Total Powers & Skills Cost 
123	Total Character Cost 
 
75+	Disadvantages 
	Psychological Limitation:  
10	Uncertainty of purpose (Silk Spectre II was pushed into being a 
	superhero by her mother, Silk Specter I) (C, M) 
10	Hates the Comedian (U, S) 
10	Watched: US Govt (MoPow, NCI) 8- 
18	Experience 
123	Total Disadvantage Points 
 
Designers Notes: 
The second Silk Spectre is the daughter of Sally Jupiter, the first Silk 
Spectre.  Sally pushed her daughter into being a 'superhero' at an early 
age, forcing her to follow in her mother's footsteps.  Laurel never felt 
comfortable with this, and was more than happy to retire in 1977 after the 
passage of the anti-vigilantie Keene Act. 
 
Laurel became an active 'superhero' in 1966 (at the age of 16), with the 
meeting of the Crimebusters.  There, she met Dr. Manhattan, falling in 
love with him and eventually living with him until 1985.  In 1985 
Manhattan left Earth and Laurel moved in with Dan Dreiberg (aka Nite Owl 
II).  She then fell in love with Dreiberg.  Together, the two of them 
broke Rorschach out of prison, at which point Manhattan took her to Mars. 
There, she realized who her father really was (the Comedian) and returned 
to Earth to confront Ozymandias in his Antarctica base.  Afterwards she 
took up with Dan Dreiberg and assumed the identity of Sandra Hollis. 
 
Description: 
Silk Spectre is of average height, with long dark brown hair.  She has an 
attractive figure and wears what looks to be a black one piece swimsuit 
under an almost transparent 'shirt'.  A belt, choker and high heels 
complete the outfit. 
 
Powers Notes: 
Aside from her gymnastic training, natural agility and martial arts 
skills, Silk Spectre II has no real 'powers'.  She is more than a match 
for the average thug (or thugs) but way out of her league when compared to 
people like Nite Owl II or Ozymandias. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Silk Spectre's two main personality points is that she resents being a 
crimefighter (she was forced into it my her mother) and that she *hates* 
the Comedian.  As stated before, she was more than happy to give up the 
crimefighter lifestyle in 1977.  Interestingly enough, she returns to 
being a vigilante (along with Dan Dreiberg) in 1985, and by the end of 
"Watchmen" is ready and willing to return to crimefighting.  Silk 
Spectre's attitude towards the Comedian change as well.  In 1966 she 
thought he was 'pretty cool', in 1973 she she confronted him at banquet 
and tossed her drink in his face.  After realizing her was her father (in 
1985) her attitude seemed to... mellow a bit. 
 
(Silk Spectre II created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet 
created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:57:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Ozymandias 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
"Do you seriously think I'd explain my master plan  
if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting it's outcome? 
I did it thirty-five minutes ago." 
 
OZYMANDIAS 
(Adrian Viedt) 
 
Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
25	STR	15	14-	800kg; 5d6 
30	DEX	60	15-	OCV: 10 / DCV: 10 
20	CON	20	13-	 
13	BODY	6	12-	 
33	INT	23	16-	PER Roll 16- 
18	EGO	16	13-	ECV: 6 
23	PRE	13	14-	PRE Attack: 4 1/2d6 
20	COM	5	13-	 
12	PD	7		Total: 12 PD 
10	ED	6		Total: 10 ED 
6	SPD	20		Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 
9	REC	0		 
40	END	0		 
36	STUN	0		 
Total Characteristics Cost: 191 
 
Movement:	Running: 6" / 12" 
		Swimming: 2" / 4" 
 
Cost	Powers & Skills 
Combat Training: 
10	Combat Skill Levels: +2 with HTH Combat 
	Martial Arts:  Kung Fu 
	Maneuver		OCV	DCV	Damage 
4	Block			+2	+2	Block, Abort 
4	Disarm			-1	+1	35 STR Disarm 
4	Dodge			--	+5	Dodge vs All, Abort 
4	Escape			+0	+0	40 STR vs Grabs 
4	Joint Lock/Grab		-1	-1	35 STR Grab two limbs 
5	Kick			-2	+1	9d6 Strike 
3	Legsweep		+2	-1	6d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Punch			+0	+2	7d6 Strike 
3	Throw			+0	+1	5d6 +v/5; Target Falls 
4	Tien-hsueh Strike	-1	+1	2d6 NND (1) 
 
100% Brain Useage Powers: 
17	Public Trend Predictions: Clairsentience: Precognition,  
	0 END (+1/2), No Range (-1/2), Precog can only be used to predict 
	general ecomomic and social trends (-1/2), OIF - Immobile: wall 
	of TV screens (-1 1/2) 
3	Talent: Eidetic Memory 
3	Talent: Lightning Calculator 
 
Martial Arts Skills: 
10	Talent: Defense Maneuver (Full) 
3	Acrobatics 15- 
3	Breakfall 15- 
2	KS: Chinese Healing 16- 
2	KS: Chinese Philosophy 16- 
2	KS: Kung Fu 16- 
 
Background Skills: 
100	Base: Karnak 
5	Contact: University 14- 
5	Contact: Wall Street 14- 
10	Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
15	Money: Filthy Rich 
3	Bureacratics 14- 
3	Climbing 
3	Contortionist 15- 
3	Conversation 14- 
3	Deduction 16- 
9	Forgery 14- 
9	Inventing 18- 
3	High Society 14- 
3	Lockpicking 15- 
3	Oratory 14- 
3	Paramedic 16- 
3	Persuasion 14- 
3	PS: Business Management (Int) 16- 
3	PS: Doctor (Int) 16- 
3	Security Systems 16- 
3	Sleight of Hand 15- 
7	Survival 13- 
4	TF: Air Vehicles, Ground Vehicles 
3	Scientist 
2	SC: Accounting and Finance 16- 
2	SC: Archaeology 16- 
2	SC: Biochemisty 16- 
2	SC: Chemistry 16- 
2	SC: Genetics 16- 
2	SC: Mathmatics 16- 
2	SC: Medicine 16- 
2	SC: Organic Chemistry 16- 
2	SC: Physics 16- 
2	SC: Psychology 16- 
3	Scholar 
2	KS: Ancient History 16- 
2	KS: Geo-political World 16- 
2	KS: Law 16- 
2	KS: Medicine 16- 
2	KS: Philosophy 16- 
2	KS: Police Procedure 16- 
338	Total Powers & Skills Cost 
529	Total Character Cost 
 
100+	Disadvantages 
10	DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
10	Distinctive Features: Very handsome; perfect physique 
	Psychological Limitation: 
15	Modest and withdrawn (VC) 
15	Scientific Curiosity (C, S) 
15	The end justifies the means (Ozymandias kills 3 million people to 
	'save the world') (U, T) 
10	Public ID: Adrian Viedt 
10	Reputation: Smartest man in the world 11- 
344	Experience 
529	Total Disadvantage Points 
 
Designers Notes: 
Born in 1939 to German parents, Adrian Veidt has always been smart.  His 
early test papers always had perfect scores, until he realized the undue 
attention that brought and carefully became an average student after that. 
His parents died in 1956, when he was 17, leaving him him a sizable 
inheritance.  Ozymandias found that wanted to do *something* with his life 
and decided to recreate the conquest of Alexander the Great.  Giving away 
his fortune, he traveled to Turkey and proceeded to follow in Alexander's 
footsteps.  Continuing onwards, past the point where Alexander turned 
back, Ozymandias entered India and China, learning various forms of 
martial arts.  Returning to the city of Alexandria he had a vision that 
transformed him and gave him a sense of purpose.  He would go forth and 
conquer the evils of mankind.   
 
In 1966 at the ill-fated Crimebusters meeting, Ozymandias realized that 
the world was doomed to destruction.  At that point he began his plan on 
how to save the world.  He built a massive economic empire (Veidt 
Corporation) that produces *everything*.  Along the way he patented the 
'spark hydrant' and used the profits to fund Dimensional Developments. 
His plan, which achieves fruition in chapter 11 of "Watchmen", is central 
to the plot of the series and involves the deaths of Comedian, Moloch and 
over 3 million New York citizens. 
 
Description: 
Ozymandias is perfect.  Perfect physique, prefect hair, perfect looks.  He 
is tall, standing 6' or over, blond and blue eyed.  Ozymandias normally 
dresses in fine, expensive suits.  His 'hero' costume (which he tends to 
wear at Karnack, his Antarctica retreat) consists of a gold body stocking 
, gold bracers, a wide golden belt and a very broad gold collar or mantle. 
Over the body stocking he wears a purple tunic and a long, flowing purple 
cape.   
 
Powers Notes: 
Utilizing techniques taught to him by Tibetan monks, Ozymandias utilizes 
100% of his brain capacity.  This grants him immense information 
processing skills, such as the ability to watch an entire wall of monitor 
screens and determine likely social trends based on the imagery depicted. 
He is also a scientific genius and has developed a number of technological 
marvels far ahead of his time.  Examples include cloning and a 
teleportation device.  He has developed his body to the peak of perfection 
and his enhanced mental prowess has granted him almost unheard of levels 
of ability and reaction time.  He is a master of several martial arts (I 
defaulted on 'kung fu') and quite skilled in hand to hand combat.   
 
Even as extensive as Ozymandias' skill list is, I realize that there are a 
few blanks.  I would guess that adding a number of Area Knowledges and 
languages would make sense, although I'm uncertain what languages he 
actually speaks.  His Science and Knowledge Skill could use some 
additions, as he knows just about *everything*.  Finally, in Chapter 12 of 
"Watchmen" Ozymandias catches a bullet fired from a gun.  Exactly how or 
when he perfected *that* stunt is unknown. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Most of Ozymandias' disads are pretty easy to understand.  He is very well 
know and instantly recognizable the world over.  He is considered (rightly 
so) the smartest man in the world, a designation that bring groupies and 
enemies in abundance.   
 
Mentally, Ozymandias is rather interesting.  His intellect puts him far 
above others making in difficult for him to relate.  This results in 
Ozymandias being modest and withdrawn in his dealings with others, an 
attitude that many see as aloofness.  Ozymandias is also a very firm 
believer in the Gordion Knot theory and understands that at times one must 
make very basic decisions about complex problems.  He spends the better 
part of 20 years formulating a plan to 'save the world', he does so, but 
at the cost of over 3 million people's lives.  And although he admits to 
being responsible for their deaths, he doesn't admit to killing his three 
house servants (even though he poisoned their wine).  On a final note, 
Ozymandias idolized Alexander the Great and his achievements, but states 
"He'd not united all the world, nor built a unity that would survive him." 
Nor, if one thinks about it, has Ozymandias. 
 
(Ozymandias created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet 
created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:01:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Watchmen 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Well, that's it.  If anyone missed any you can find them on my website 
 
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html 
 
or I can e-mail them to you directly.  Now that he Watchmen are done, I'm 
not certain what what will be next.  I'm currently tinkering with Mian 
Toris and Shion Claris from "Caravan Kidd" as well as some of the 
characters from "Dragonball Z" (Bulma, Chi Chi and Mr. Satan).  I'm also 
working on Grey and Misty Brown from "Gunsmith Cats", Zakuro from "Ninja 
Scroll" (seems I forgot about her), a re-write of Nur al-Allah, Major 
Motoko Kusanagi ("Ghost in the Shell") and The Joker. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:53:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Ozymandias 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> 10	Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
 
> 100+	Disadvantages 
> 10	DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
 
Hmmm - I dunno.  Taking a Follower as a DNPC seems a bit dodgy to me.  If 
they're generally useful, they should be a Follower, if they're more of a 
problem than a help, they're a DNPC. 
 
Ozzy doesn't hesitate much before sacrificing Bubastis late in the series.  
Bubastis was a pet, yes, but I'm not sure he had the ties to her that 
would allow her to be a DNPC.  
 
> Finally, in Chapter 12 of 
> "Watchmen" Ozymandias catches a bullet fired from a gun.  Exactly how or 
> when he perfected *that* stunt is unknown. 
 
IIRC, he wasn't /sure/ he could do it - he says something like 'I always 
wondered if I could do that.'  Based on that scene, though, I'd say he 
almost certainly has some level of Missile Deflection - it could normally 
be at the arrows level, and 'pushed' to the bullet level for that scene 
only... 
 
J  
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:22:26 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Reply-To: jimalj@best.com 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> That's one of my problems. These things are indestructable (virtually) 
> but if they die. . i guess the feedback would take their controller 
> offline, i.e. blow out his frontal lobe. Hmmm, more of a risk is cool. . . 
 
Well, if they die, there is no reason the duplicate has to go.  It's just there 
isn't the original character, anymore.  Of course, you could set it up so that 
the other character dies, too. 
 
> Oh hell yes. in orbit or something. I was thinking of making it it in a 
> safe zone, 
> , but i might just make it semi-vunerable. . 
 
If the "real" person is perfectly safe, then you don't need to buy the 
duplication:  it is just a special effect.  If the "real" person is almost 
perfectly safe, and is never going to be played (the mind is in the Hologram, 
and will stay there if unplugged, but the body needs to be alive), you could 
take a DNPC:  Incompetent, really low roll (5- for a -5 points?  Not legal, but 
anyway...) for the "real" person, and then take a Susceptability to the DNPC 
being dead (the Hologram quickly discorporates if the DNPC is killed, this 
should be worth only a few points, since it is hoped the DNPC won't die in the 
game). 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:26:25 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Reply-To: jimalj@best.com 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>    I don't think this is really necessary.  From what I gather, the vehicle 
> is basically useless until drawn from the Pool, so everything that would be 
> covered by Shrinking, Shape Shift, and such can be written off as Special 
> Effects (since there's no real benefit that isn't already paid for with the 
> Pool Control Cost. 
 
I would tend to agree, but, as I said, I was trying to be as completely "official" 
as possible.  While I would hope it would be unnecessary to go to the lengths I 
just did, I doubt anyone would argue with its legality.  Whereas some will 
certainly argue with most of the other ways I presented, or with putting the 
vehicle in the VPP. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:02:47 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:52 PM 6/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
>cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
>On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> At 12:19 AM 6/14/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> >Now, this lets me have a mess of gadgets yes... but what about vehicles 
>> >and bases?  Do GMs have a hard time accepting items like that in a 'gadget 
>> >pool'?  If yes, how would one go about buying a pool of such things?  Bob? 
>> >Any suggestions from the TUSV? 
>>  
>>    Not really, though some of my early notes for TUG lets a gadgeteer have 
>> Vehicles as part of a Gadget Pool.  Just treat the vehicle as though it 
>> were already OAF (as part of the 5:1 cost ratio), assume most other 
>> Limitations are only in regards to bringing the vehicle into being, and go 
>> from there. 
> 
>Umm... Explain, please.  Do you mean I just set aside part of the pool 
>(say 50 points) and buy a 250 point vehicle?.   
 
   Precisely -- though, of course, this is subject to the same limitations 
as buying a Vehicle directly (such as 1:1 points if the Vehicle has more 
Total Points than the character that owns it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:07:39 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Robert Harrison <rharriso@iastate.edu> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Rorschach 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>RORSCHACH 
>(Joseph Walter Kovacs) 
> 
>Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
>20	STR	10	13-	400kg; 4d6 
This seems a little too high for someone as short, runty, and lightly 
-muscled as Kovacs.  Then again, he did kick a toilet bowl to pieces during 
his jail break.  What's the DEF/BODY for a toilet bowl, anyway? :-) 
 
>	Martial Art: Boxing / Dirty Infighting 
 
What?!?  No "Pinky Breaking Maneuver"? :-) 
 
>100+	Disadvantages 
>10	Distinctive Features: Monotone voice and awful smell (C) 
>15	Hunted: New York Police (MoPow, NCI, LimGeo) 8- 
>20	Normal Characteristic Maxima 
>	Psychological Limitation: 
>20	No compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon (VC, T) 
>15	Violent treatment of criminals (C, S) 
>10	Paranoia 
>15	Reputation: Violent and crazy crimefighter (Ext) 11- 
>15	Secret ID: Joseph Walter Kovacs 
I would add Psych. Lim.: Misogynist to this list. 
 
>Description: 
>Rorschach is short and wiry, with reddish hair and an 'ugly' freckled 
>face.  He is very strong for his sizeand keeps himself in excellent 
>physical shape. 
Yeah, a diet of sugar cubes and uncooked beans will do that for you. :-) 
 
Good job on the write-up.  I would scale back his characteristics and 
combat abilities a bit - my impression from the Watchmen series is that 
Rorschach relies on surprise and PRE attacks more than brute strength or 
combat ability.  Then again, I really haven't researched the issue as much 
as you must have.  I would also give him more PRE for attack purposes only 
when he has his "face" on. 
 
____________________________ 
Robert L. Harrison 
Department of Entomology 
411 Science II 
Iowa State University 
Phone: (515) 294-3963 
Fax: (515) 294-5957 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:34:31 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging and Knockback 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Mark Lemming wrote: 
>  
> Guy Hoyle wrote: 
> > 
> > Galactic Giant appears behind him and attempts to pluck the Clingful 
> > Clinguist off the side of the building. Galagula has a STR of 150, more 
> > than sufficient to overcome the Clingster's mere Clinging STR of 150. 
> > However, since the Blaxter Building is mere steel-and-concrete, and the 
> > Clingster is pushing to his utmost to resist Galagula, won't a chunk of the 
> > building come with him when the World-Devouring Wonder plucks the Capable 
> > Crusader from the Building That Gets Demolished Every Other Issue? 
 
>  
> I'll have to agree with Rat in that there is nothing inherent in Clinging that 
> says an object that somebody is clinging to gets damaged from them peeling 
> bits off.   
 
I am not sure what your point is, here.  The rules on Clinging state  
explicitly that the surface may break.  Presumably, this will happen if  
the attacker's STR does more BODY than the BODY of the material that  
forms the surface, and chunks of the stuff may start hurtling towards the  
Crowd That Always Gathers Directly Beneath Battling Supers. 
 
As for how much damage this would actually do to the building, well, this  
is a weakness (pun intended) in the rules on Breaking Things.  There  
seems to be no clear demarcation between when one is doing BODY to the  
entire building, vehicle or whatever, and when one is just doing overkill  
on blowing a hole through one wall, bulkhead or whatever.  Yes, GMs can  
rule reasonably on this, but this sort of think tends to produce long  
discussions in game, because frequently the players have a strong stake  
in the precise outcome. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:40:47 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Another VPP question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Since we're on the subject of VPP's: 
 
I've started a new character, Charade, who is a shapeshifter.  She has a 
40 point VPP of 'shapeshifting' powers, which has an overall -1 
limitation (which enables her to run 2 40 point powers at the same time) 
 
Now, the question. 
 
At the beginning of her phase, Charade wants to shift her pool to give 
her flight and claws.  She decides on 40 active (20 real) points of 
flight and 30 active (15 real) points of HKA. 
 
She has an 18- shapeshifting skill roll. 
 
Does she make a single skill roll to shift the pool, or does she make a 
seperate skill roll for the flight and the HKA? 
 
And is the penalty to the skill roll based on the active points or the 
real? 
 
 
Thanks for any help, 
 
 
Todd 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:25:44 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Another VPP question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> I infer from this description that it requires at least a half-phase 
> action to rearrange the pool, and that the Skill Roll required is called 
> Shapeshifting Skill.  Does Charade actually have the Shapeshifting power? 
> I would assume that she does and that this is reflected as the two 
> Limitations Powers Only Change in Given Circumstance(-1/2) and Restricted 
> Type of Powers Available(-1/2).  Since neither of these apply to the 
> powers derived from the pool, but only to the Control Cost, what is the 
> -1 Limitation that applies to all powers in the pool? 
 
 
Why does this matter for the question asked?   
 
I paid the +1 to be able to change the pool as a zero phase action, 
however it DOES take a half phase due to one of the limitations on the 
power. 
 
Yes, Charade does have the shapeshifting power.   
 
The limitations on the pool are -1/2 side effect and -1/2 must 
shapeshift to appropriate form.  The GM allowed the -1/2 for 'must 
shapeshift' because it forces me to use a half phase if I want to change 
my pool (for the shapeshift), and it restricts the way I can use the 
powers - I can't just fly, I have to take obvious wings, my HKA has to 
be claws or teeth or something similar. 
 
 
 
How long does it take to change a VPP if you don't pay for 'change as 
zero phase' and don't take the limitation 'only change in a lab'?? 
 
 
Todd 
 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:51:30 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Ozymandias 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
> > 10	Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
>  
> > 100+	Disadvantages 
> > 10	DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
>  
> Hmmm - I dunno.  Taking a Follower as a DNPC seems a bit dodgy to me.  If 
> they're generally useful, they should be a Follower, if they're more of a 
> problem than a help, they're a DNPC. 
 
Hmm... possibly.  OTOH I could just by 'protective of Bubastis' for 10 
points too.  It works out the same. 
  
> Ozzy doesn't hesitate much before sacrificing Bubastis late in the series.  
> Bubastis was a pet, yes, but I'm not sure he had the ties to her that 
> would allow her to be a DNPC.  
 
Actually, he states "Bubastis, forgive me..." 
  
> > Finally, in Chapter 12 of 
> > "Watchmen" Ozymandias catches a bullet fired from a gun.  Exactly how or 
> > when he perfected *that* stunt is unknown. 
>  
> IIRC, he wasn't /sure/ he could do it - he says something like 'I always 
> wondered if I could do that.'  Based on that scene, though, I'd say he 
> almost certainly has some level of Missile Deflection - it could normally 
> be at the arrows level, and 'pushed' to the bullet level for that scene 
> only... 
 
Hmmm.... yeah.  Ozy looks like he has a *lot* of powers one never sees. 
The orginal DC Heroes write-up gave him Simulate Death for example. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:09:17 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Rorschach 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Robert Harrison wrote: 
 
>  
> >RORSCHACH 
> >(Joseph Walter Kovacs) 
> > 
> >Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
> >20	STR	10	13-	400kg; 4d6 
 
> This seems a little too high for someone as short, runty, and lightly 
> -muscled as Kovacs.  Then again, he did kick a toilet bowl to pieces during 
> his jail break.  What's the DEF/BODY for a toilet bowl, anyway? :-) 
 
But he's not.  Kovacs is *very* strong for his size.  This is shown 
several times during the series. 
  
> >100+	Disadvantages 
> >10	Distinctive Features: Monotone voice and awful smell (C) 
> >15	Hunted: New York Police (MoPow, NCI, LimGeo) 8- 
> >20	Normal Characteristic Maxima 
> >	Psychological Limitation: 
> >20	No compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon (VC, T) 
> >15	Violent treatment of criminals (C, S) 
> >10	Paranoia 
> >15	Reputation: Violent and crazy crimefighter (Ext) 11- 
> >15	Secret ID: Joseph Walter Kovacs 
 
> I would add Psych. Lim.: Misogynist to this list. 
 
No, he doesn't hate women, he just isn't very comfortable around most 
women.  Note that he's okay with Silk Spectre II though.  He just dosn't 
like her costume. 
  
> >Description: 
> >Rorschach is short and wiry, with reddish hair and an 'ugly' freckled 
> >face.  He is very strong for his size and keeps himself in excellent 
> >physical shape. 
 
> Yeah, a diet of sugar cubes and uncooked beans will do that for you. :-) 
>  
> Good job on the write-up.  I would scale back his characteristics and 
> combat abilities a bit - my impression from the Watchmen series is that 
> Rorschach relies on surprise and PRE attacks more than brute strength or 
> combat ability.  Then again, I really haven't researched the issue as much 
> as you must have.  I would also give him more PRE for attack purposes only 
> when he has his "face" on. 
 
He is listed as an excellent amatuer boxer in one of the backups to the 
main chapter.  He fought gangs with Nite Owl and manages to mess up some 
of the prision inmates pretty good on his own.  He's a strong fighter.  As 
to the increased PRE... possibly. But I think a *lot* of the people in the 
Watchemn universe have a PRE of 8 to 10.  In fact, there seem to be very 
few people with stats above ... oh... 13 in the series. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:10:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Power Pool Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 03:52 PM 6/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
> >>    Not really, though some of my early notes for TUG lets a gadgeteer have 
> >> Vehicles as part of a Gadget Pool.  Just treat the vehicle as though it 
> >> were already OAF (as part of the 5:1 cost ratio), assume most other 
> >> Limitations are only in regards to bringing the vehicle into being, and go 
> >> from there. 
> > 
> >Umm... Explain, please.  Do you mean I just set aside part of the pool 
> >(say 50 points) and buy a 250 point vehicle?.   
>  
>    Precisely -- though, of course, this is subject to the same limitations 
> as buying a Vehicle directly (such as 1:1 points if the Vehicle has more 
> Total Points than the character that owns it). 
 
This would work perfectly for the power.  Okay, thanks. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:55:10 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
CC: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net&> 
        Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Ozymandias 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
>  
> On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > 10    Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
>  
> > 100+  Disadvantages 
> > 10    DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
>  
> Hmmm - I dunno.  Taking a Follower as a DNPC seems a bit dodgy to me.  If 
> they're generally useful, they should be a Follower, if they're more of a 
> problem than a help, they're a DNPC. 
 
This is not infrequently done, rather than taking a Psych Lim: Protective  
of Follower. 
 
 
>  
> Ozzy doesn't hesitate much before sacrificing Bubastis late in the series. 
> Bubastis was a pet, yes, but I'm not sure he had the ties to her that 
> would allow her to be a DNPC. 
 
Well, that may have been when he traded in the DNPC for a Casual Killer. 
 
;-) 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:05:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another VPP question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> Since we're on the subject of VPP's: 
>  
> I've started a new character, Charade, who is a shapeshifter.  She has a 
> 40 point VPP of 'shapeshifting' powers, which has an overall -1 
> limitation (which enables her to run 2 40 point powers at the same time) 
 
I infer from this description that it requires at least a half-phase  
action to rearrange the pool, and that the Skill Roll required is called  
Shapeshifting Skill.  Does Charade actually have the Shapeshifting power?  
I would assume that she does and that this is reflected as the two  
Limitations Powers Only Change in Given Circumstance(-1/2) and Restricted  
Type of Powers Available(-1/2).  Since neither of these apply to the  
powers derived from the pool, but only to the Control Cost, what is the  
-1 Limitation that applies to all powers in the pool? 
 
>  
> Now, the question. 
>  
> At the beginning of her phase, Charade wants to shift her pool to give 
> her flight and claws.  She decides on 40 active (20 real) points of 
> flight and 30 active (15 real) points of HKA. 
 
I would assume that this also requires using her Shapeshift power to  
shift to a different shape -- one having wings and claws. 
 
 
>  
> She has an 18- shapeshifting skill roll. 
>  
> Does she make a single skill roll to shift the pool, or does she make a 
> seperate skill roll for the flight and the HKA? 
 
I would rule one roll, based on the total active points being rearranged,  
which is in this case 70: larger than the pool size.  She will make the  
change on 11-. 
 
>  
> And is the penalty to the skill roll based on the active points or the 
> real? 
 
Active points, per the usual Requires a Skill Roll (HSR p. 111). 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:08:47 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Another VPP question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> Robert A. West wrote: 
> [inferences and questions snipped] 
>  
> Why does this matter for the question asked? 
 
It doesn't matter, but I was curious. 
 
 
>  
> How long does it take to change a VPP if you don't pay for 'change as 
> zero phase' and don't take the limitation 'only change in a lab'?? 
 
HSR p. 116, under Variable Power Pools: 
 
	A character may buy a Skill in manipulating his own Variable 
	Power Pool; with this Skill the character may change the powers 
	in the Power Pool while in combat.  The Skill costs 3 points, 
	has a roll of 9+INT/5 or less and is +1 per 2 points.  Changing 
	Powers with the Skill takes a Full Phase.  The character must  
	make the Skill Roll at -1 per 10 active points being changed 
	in the Power Pool. 
 
 
	 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:49:59 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> As an interesting aside, right now nobody in the world knows how to build a 
> Saturn V rocket.  The design notes were accidentally destroyed, and 
> everyone on the design team is dead, now. 
 
Uh, Rat, do you have a source for this?  This has all the earmarks of an  
Urban Legend.  To wit: 
 
- The 1960's were only 30 years ago, and many of the engineers  
involved were in their 20's and 30's.  If they are all dead, then I would  
suggest that we call in Fox Mulder to ferret out the conspiracy. 
 
- The Saturn V was not built by a single contractor, so there had to be  
multiple copies of most of the specifications.  These almost certainly  
exist in archives somewhere. 
 
I am sure that the design specs are scattered, and that some have become  
lost over time.  Anything stored on magnetic media is almost certainly  
unreadable as a result of thermal randomization, even if you can find a  
7-track 800bpi drive.  Hollerith cards last almost forever, but try  
finding a card reader.  In 1983, I found a treasure trove of irreplacable  
data on the effects of local weather conditions on cocoa production in  
the period 1972 to 1979.  Unfortuntely, it was on punched cards.  We had  
to search long and hard to find a company that still had a high speed  
card reader available, and that was fifteen years ago! 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:24:06 +1000 
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>  
> > this is the difference between a character and a pc, or even a 
character 
> > and 
> > an npc. For instance, i could suggest that making the doc infinite in 
power 
> > in any rpg would be unfair to any other cosmis types wandering around.  
> > You might suggest that he'd only be present in otherwise low-power 
> > settings,  
> > but the point remains- is this a portrayal of a character simply for 
> > observations sake,  
> > or is knows everything boy actually gonna turn up in a cappaign?  
>  
> Does it matter?  I wrote him up purely for 'observations sake'.  If 
> someone wants to use him, go right ahead.  I have no idea if anyone ever 
> uses any of the character adaptions I post to the list, and I don't care 
> if anyone does.  They are written up for my amusement. 
>  
 
And simmilarly, my question was for my OWN amusement, and 
quite rhetorical. Hence i refer to it as a 'point' and not a 'question. 
I think the differences in structure between a 'depiction' and a  
'game ready character' is one of those differences which many do not  
recognise. You oculd also add the catogory of an npc, as seperate from 
a pc, with reguards to power structures, ect. 
 
 
 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion 
*  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                
*  
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        
*    
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             
* 
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            
* 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark 
* 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
>  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:24:06 +1000 
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>  
> > this is the difference between a character and a pc, or even a 
character 
> > and 
> > an npc. For instance, i could suggest that making the doc infinite in 
power 
> > in any rpg would be unfair to any other cosmis types wandering around.  
> > You might suggest that he'd only be present in otherwise low-power 
> > settings,  
> > but the point remains- is this a portrayal of a character simply for 
> > observations sake,  
> > or is knows everything boy actually gonna turn up in a cappaign?  
>  
> Does it matter?  I wrote him up purely for 'observations sake'.  If 
> someone wants to use him, go right ahead.  I have no idea if anyone ever 
> uses any of the character adaptions I post to the list, and I don't care 
> if anyone does.  They are written up for my amusement. 
>  
 
And simmilarly, my question was for my OWN amusement, and 
quite rhetorical. Hence i refer to it as a 'point' and not a 'question. 
I think the differences in structure between a 'depiction' and a  
'game ready character' is one of those differences which many do not  
recognise. You oculd also add the catogory of an npc, as seperate from 
a pc, with reguards to power structures, ect. 
 
 
 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion 
*  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                
*  
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        
*    
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             
* 
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            
* 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark 
* 
> 
*************************************************************************** 
>  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes. 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:45:41 +1000 
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>  
> > That's one of my problems. These things are indestructable (virtually) 
> > but if they die. . i guess the feedback would take their controller 
> > offline, i.e. blow out his frontal lobe. Hmmm, more of a risk is cool. 
 . 
>  
> Well, if they die, there is no reason the duplicate has to go.  It's just 
there 
> isn't the original character, anymore.  Of course, you could set it up so 
that 
> the other character dies, too. 
>  
 
Yeah that works out pretty well. The avatar can still be used by another,  
or perhaps just goes loco without it's controlller. Also, it's be 
interesting to see what happend if I did the oft-used 'upload your 
conciousness to the net' idea in combination with this avatar idea. Hence, 
when bob the punk dies, his concoiusness gets uploaded to the mainframe. 
IE- the light dude keeps existing, even though his controller is dead.  
 
> > Oh hell yes. in orbit or something. I was thinking of making it it in a 
> > safe zone, 
> > , but i might just make it semi-vunerable. . 
>  
> If the "real" person is perfectly safe, then you don't need to buy the 
> duplication:  it is just a special effect.  If the "real" person is 
almost 
> perfectly safe, and is never going to be played (the mind is in the 
Hologram, 
> and will stay there if unplugged, but the body needs to be alive), you 
could 
> take a DNPC:  Incompetent, really low roll (5- for a -5 points?  Not 
legal, but 
> anyway...) for the "real" person, and then take a Susceptability to the 
DNPC 
> being dead (the Hologram quickly discorporates if the DNPC is killed, 
this 
> should be worth only a few points, since it is hoped the DNPC won't die 
in the 
> game). 
>  
 
Well not perfectly. I was actually meaning 'during a run', with the punks 
doing legwork and thier normal gigs when the holograms aren't online, but 
relativly 
safe when they are online. Actualy, that sounds more like a multiform.  
 
 
> JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
> http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
>  
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:24:06 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Reply-To: jimalj@best.com 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> Well not perfectly. I was actually meaning 'during a run', with the punks 
> doing legwork and thier normal gigs when the holograms aren't online, but 
> relativly 
> safe when they are online. Actualy, that sounds more like a multiform. 
 
Oh, that can of worms.  It can be a multiform, but in that case the Superhero 
would need that DNPC or something again for the other character (unless that 
character is perfectly safe, in which case it's just Multiform).  The last time 
this was talked about, it caused an argument because there are two of you but 
that is not indicated by the power.  Sounds like the way to go for your needs, 
though. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:52:06 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Another VPP question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > How long does it take to change a VPP if you don't pay for 'change as 
> > zero phase' and don't take the limitation 'only change in a lab'?? 
>  
> HSR p. 116, under Variable Power Pools: 
>  
> 	A character may buy a Skill in manipulating his own Variable 
> 	Power Pool; with this Skill the character may change the powers 
> 	in the Power Pool while in combat.  The Skill costs 3 points, 
> 	has a roll of 9+INT/5 or less and is +1 per 2 points.  Changing 
> 	Powers with the Skill takes a Full Phase. 
 
And if you don't buy such a skill, the change takes somewhere 
between a turn and a minute. 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:57:09 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Silk Spectre II 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Powers Notes: 
> Aside from her gymnastic training, natural agility and martial arts 
> skills, Silk Spectre II has no real 'powers'.  She is more than a match 
> for the average thug (or thugs) but way out of her league when compared to 
> people like Nite Owl II or Ozymandias. 
 
Eh? Where is it suggested that she's significantly less competent than 
Nite Owl? 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:59:31 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
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On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > Well, Western Hero suggests using Distinctive Features to represent 
> > membership in a group which faces discrimination. I only specifically 
> > remember them mentioning visible minorities, granted, but I don't think 
> > it's too much of a stretch to extend it to other groups (who would of 
> > course take it at the "Easily concealable" level). 
>  
> Hmm... possibly.  Persoanlly, I prefer using SID right now.  Once 
> discovered it could become a DF (or a Reputation). 
 
I don't think the nature of the Disadvantage should change based on whether 
they hide it or not. 
 
> > Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
> > society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
> > is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
>  
> Right now.  I thik 5th Edition needs to work on this. 
 
Hmm. You favour separating the "Strong/Extreme Reactions" part out from 
Distinctive Features, then? 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 13:12:48  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Another VPP question 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:40:47 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
>Since we're on the subject of VPP's: 
> 
>I've started a new character, Charade, who is a shapeshifter.  She has a 
>40 point VPP of 'shapeshifting' powers, which has an overall -1 
>limitation (which enables her to run 2 40 point powers at the same time) 
> 
>Now, the question. 
> 
>At the beginning of her phase, Charade wants to shift her pool to give 
>her flight and claws.  She decides on 40 active (20 real) points of 
>flight and 30 active (15 real) points of HKA. 
> 
>She has an 18- shapeshifting skill roll. 
> 
>Does she make a single skill roll to shift the pool, or does she make a 
>seperate skill roll for the flight and the HKA? 
 
This depends upon the construction of the pool! For a basic pool, you 
just need a roll to change. If the powers within the pool have the RSR 
limitation, then they too Require a Skill Roll. 
 
>And is the penalty to the skill roll based on the active points or the 
>real? 
 
Active. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com&> 
        "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 13:13:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Ozymandias 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:53:30 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
>On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
>> 10	Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
> 
>> 100+	Disadvantages 
>> 10	DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
> 
>Hmmm - I dunno.  Taking a Follower as a DNPC seems a bit dodgy to me.  If 
>they're generally useful, they should be a Follower, if they're more of a 
>problem than a help, they're a DNPC. 
 
Actually, they're mutually exclusive. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 13:14:59  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Ozymandias 
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:51:30 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
> 
>> > 10	Follower: Bubastis (50 point base) 
>>  
>> > 100+	Disadvantages 
>> > 10	DNPC: Bubastis the Lynx (Less Pow) 11- 
>>  
>> Hmmm - I dunno.  Taking a Follower as a DNPC seems a bit dodgy to me.  If 
>> they're generally useful, they should be a Follower, if they're more of a 
>> problem than a help, they're a DNPC. 
> 
>Hmm... possibly.  OTOH I could just by 'protective of Bubastis' for 10 
>points too.  It works out the same. 
 
Surely not - that's subsumed in the Follower or DNPC cost. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:29:15 -0700 
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This sounds like a perfect use of Multiform with the limitation (normally 
used just for Desolid) of Leaves Physical Body Behind. If the jackers are 
severely tied into their holocreations, then their nervous systems, mental 
functions, etc. could be put at risk from feedback (damage) from the holo. 
 
When the jackers jack in, the holos come to life there in the room, and the 
jackers can see (through the holos' eyes) their own bodies lifeless and 
hooked up to various equipment. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Power Pool Question 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:35:19 -0700 
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>HoiPoi Capsules: Variable Power Pool (100 Point Pool) 
 
The old "How do you do a bag of holding in Hero" question, eh? 
 
I've seen several methods presented over the years, but the one that seems 
the most right to me is Transformation: Object into Very Small Object. The 
obvious way to reverse the transformation is to remove the object from the 
bag. 
 
So in your case, you'd want a VPP like you have, with an additional -1/2 
control cost of "limited type of gadget." The limited type is anything that 
has been transformed into pill form. 
 
Then separately buy a transform gadget-to-pill device. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Feedback on power set wanted 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:38:20 -0700 
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I wrote: 
> > Fully Indirect TK (with the Feedback -1 limitation)  
>  
>Feedback Limitation from where?  Forcewall?   
 
Yes. The limitation also can make sense for TK (and for Entangle). Feedback 
in this case means that the character uses TK by using his actual arm, which 
can be attacked, grabbed, etc., which can cause the character damage. 
 
>As to the Damage Reduction, the Wu still takes damage when  
>the limb is severed.   
 
Okay. The powers I presented were for a limb that falls off under enough 
damage, to prevent even more damage from being taken. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Another VPP question 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:41:48 -0700 
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>Does she make a single skill roll to shift the pool, or does she  
>make a separate skill roll for the flight and the HKA? 
 
I'd give her the option to roll as a set or to make a separate skill roll 
for each, but rule that if one of the separate rolls fail, no further rolls 
can be attempted. So if she plans to grow wings and claws, she can do them 
simultaneously (as a single morph), at a -7, or separately, at a -4 and a 
-3. 
 
>And is the penalty to the skill roll based on the active points  
>or the real? 
 
Active. The real just allows you to fit more powers into the pool. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:57:29 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why? 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might 
have the Hunted Disadvantage?< 
 
Maybe the hero knows some information that could be damaging to the hunter, 
like a Secret ID.  Or maybe the hero used to be the hunter's lackey/pal 
(this would mix with your idea of having the hero be ex-organized crime) 
and has too much information that could be damaging to the organization 
(where the hide-out is, what the plan for world-domination is, the 
weaknesses of the gadgets of the org's agents).  I think a somewhat common 
background for published villains is "Viper agent who has defected to the 
'good side'", giving them a Hunted by Viper. 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:07:11 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Reply-To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes.  
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, happyelf wrote: 
 
> It seems this guy has stumbled upon a great breakthrough- secure Hard-light 
> Hologramatic generators. With them his friends and he can leap into some  
> virtual reality couches and control a pack of physically improbable super 
> beings.  
>  
> how would you protray this? I figured duplication but *shrug* 
 
Well, I wouldn't use Duplication, since they don't have two active bodies 
at the same time - presumably when their super-selves are out running 
around, their normal bodies are engrossed in the VR. 
 
With that in mind: 
 
Multiform, leaves body behind (-1, basically stolen from the 'Astral 
Projection' versions of Duplication), Bulky or Immobile focus (VR couch). 
 
You could also do it as Desolid, leaves body behind (-1), and buy Affects 
Real World on all of their relevant powers - this would mean that all the 
superheros are practically indestructible, but it would make sense for a 
'hard light' hologram (IMHO).  They would probably be vulnerable to 
attacks that interfered with whatever sort of information transmission 
they were using. 
  
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:07:45 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Reply-To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
> > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> > > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
< snip 'Extra Limb' regenerating power > 
 
> > As to whether it's abusive - well, the HERO mechanics for chopping bits 
> > off are pretty sketchy, and it's unclear whether regeneration would/should 
> > heal those types of wounds anyway. 
>  
> Right which is why I but the Aid.  Actually, I've used variations on Aid 
> before to simulate this sort of power.  Ryoko (Tenchi Muyo) and Piccolo 
> (Dragonball Z) both have the ability to instantly regrow lost limbs, which 
> I felt was an application of Aid. 
 
AID provides bonuses to a stat...it doesn't change your physical form - 
that's why I think it's not the right tool for this job.  An Aid could 
certainly heal the BODY damage done by the wound that chopped off the limb 
- but so could Regeneration.  I'm not sure why you think that a Body Aid 
would restore a lost limb while Regeneration would not...basically, all 
either of them does is add to your current BOD stat.  
   
> > Here's an idea:  xd6 cumulative Transform, from Wu with missing limb to Wu 
> > with full complement of limbs.  Season with advantages and limitations to 
> > taste - I'd suggest 0 End Persistent Uncontrolled. 
>  
> Sorry, read the last sentance of Transformation Attack: "Transforms cannot 
> be used by the character to change himself: Use Shapeshift for this." 
 
(waves hand in the air) As a fellow Champions GM, I give you permission to 
ignore that sentence, because other than that, it looks like the Transform 
is the best suited to what you want. 
    
8) 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:17:07 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Hunting vs Hunted 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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In 2nd Edition Champions, I think it specifices in the Hunted disad that 
you can replace the words "Hunted by" with "Hunting" if your character is 
trying to track somebody down.  This is the way my group has always done 
it, even in 4th Ed where "Hunting" isn't specifically mentioned as far as I 
can remember (gee, hope I don't get blasted with messages pointing me to a 
page number).  However, when I mentioned this a while back, someone said 
that "Hunting" is a Psych Lim, not a special form of Hunted.  Both ways 
make sense to me, but I think using it as a special form of Hunted gives 
you a better point value based on who you are Hunting....  If you're 
Hunting anybody related to Viper in order to bring that organization to its 
knees, you ought to get more points than if you're Hunting your long lost 
uncle Joe Incompetent Normal.  Psych Lim doesn't really reflect this.  
Anyway, do most of you use Psych Lim to represent "Hunting", or do you 
follow the same guidelines as Hunted? 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:57:19 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:59 AM 6/15/1998 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
>> > Well, Western Hero suggests using Distinctive Features to represent 
>> > membership in a group which faces discrimination. I only specifically 
>> > remember them mentioning visible minorities, granted, but I don't think 
>> > it's too much of a stretch to extend it to other groups (who would of 
>> > course take it at the "Easily concealable" level). 
>>  
>> Hmm... possibly.  Persoanlly, I prefer using SID right now.  Once 
>> discovered it could become a DF (or a Reputation). 
> 
>I don't think the nature of the Disadvantage should change based on whether 
>they hide it or not. 
 
   Oh, that's a natural part of the evolution of Disadvantages.  If you 
stop hiding your identity, for example, you could go from Secret ID to 
Public ID.  If you stop hiding some other secret, it could go from Secret 
to Reputation. 
 
>> > Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
>> > society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
>> > is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
>>  
>> Right now.  I thik 5th Edition needs to work on this. 
> 
>Hmm. You favour separating the "Strong/Extreme Reactions" part out from 
>Distinctive Features, then? 
 
   Now I'm trying to understand the question; I thought they already were 
separate. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:30:34 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> In 2nd Edition Champions, I think it specifices in the Hunted disad 
that 
> you can replace the words "Hunted by" with "Hunting" if your 
character is 
> trying to track somebody down.  This is the way my group has always 
done 
> it, even in 4th Ed where "Hunting" isn't specifically mentioned as 
far as I 
> can remember (gee, hope I don't get blasted with messages pointing 
me to a 
> page number).  However, when I mentioned this a while back, someone 
said 
> that "Hunting" is a Psych Lim, not a special form of Hunted.  Both 
ways 
> make sense to me, but I think using it as a special form of Hunted 
gives 
> you a better point value based on who you are Hunting....  If you're 
> Hunting anybody related to Viper in order to bring that organization 
to its 
> knees, you ought to get more points than if you're Hunting your long 
lost 
> uncle Joe Incompetent Normal.  Psych Lim doesn't really reflect this.  
> Anyway, do most of you use Psych Lim to represent "Hunting", or do you 
> follow the same guidelines as Hunted? 
 
Use the cost structure of Hunted to determine the value fo the disad, 
but the disad will be a Psych Lim.  A Hunting represents a type of 
compulive behaivor which falls into the Psych Lim category, but the 
Hunted cost structure provides a  handy method for determining the 
value. 
 
-=>John D. 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:02:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
> > Right which is why I but the Aid.  Actually, I've used variations on Aid 
> > before to simulate this sort of power.  Ryoko (Tenchi Muyo) and Piccolo 
> > (Dragonball Z) both have the ability to instantly regrow lost limbs, which 
> > I felt was an application of Aid. 
>  
> AID provides bonuses to a stat...it doesn't change your physical form - 
> that's why I think it's not the right tool for this job.  An Aid could 
> certainly heal the BODY damage done by the wound that chopped off the limb 
> - but so could Regeneration.  I'm not sure why you think that a Body Aid 
> would restore a lost limb while Regeneration would not...basically, all 
> either of them does is add to your current BOD stat.  
 
My thought was that an Aid can *instantly* bost one's lost Body in a 
single phase.  Which Regen does not (it works on a per Turn basis).  It 
does state that a limb can take one thrid of your total Body before being 
destroyed, so one can draw some conclusions as to how much Body Aid is 
needed to restore the Body lost when a limb is removed.  I am beginning to 
thing that dumping the Aid power and simple going witht he massive Regen 
may be the way to go.  It's simple, clean.  Upon further reflection, a Wu 
doesn't look to regrow limbs as fast as the otehr two examples, so the Aid 
power may be a bit much. 
 
> > > Here's an idea:  xd6 cumulative Transform, from Wu with missing limb to Wu 
> > > with full complement of limbs.  Season with advantages and limitations to 
> > > taste - I'd suggest 0 End Persistent Uncontrolled. 
> >  
> > Sorry, read the last sentance of Transformation Attack: "Transforms cannot 
> > be used by the character to change himself: Use Shapeshift for this." 
>  
> (waves hand in the air) As a fellow Champions GM, I give you permission to 
> ignore that sentence, because other than that, it looks like the Transform 
> is the best suited to what you want. 
 
Sorry, no, I don't work that way.  Having NNDs and AVLDs do Body is stated 
as a 'GM perogative' in the rule book.  Your suggestion goes against a 
printed rule and doesn't fly (IMO).  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:03:44 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Silk Spectre II 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > Powers Notes: 
> > Aside from her gymnastic training, natural agility and martial arts 
> > skills, Silk Spectre II has no real 'powers'.  She is more than a match 
> > for the average thug (or thugs) but way out of her league when compared to 
> > people like Nite Owl II or Ozymandias. 
>  
> Eh? Where is it suggested that she's significantly less competent than 
> Nite Owl? 
 
It's not that she's less competent, it's just that she doesn't have his 
wealth, gadgets, bases and vehicles to use.  He's got a *lot* of stuff he 
can access, Silk Spectre II just has herself and her HTH skill. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:06:45 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> > Hmm... possibly.  Persoanlly, I prefer using SID right now.  Once 
> > discovered it could become a DF (or a Reputation). 
>  
> I don't think the nature of the Disadvantage should change based on whether 
> they hide it or not. 
 
Wht not?  Some types of disads could change over time depending on player 
action. 
  
> > > Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
> > > society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
> > > is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
> >  
> > Right now.  I thik 5th Edition needs to work on this. 
>  
> Hmm. You favour separating the "Strong/Extreme Reactions" part out from 
> Distinctive Features, then? 
 
No, I'm in favor of 5th edition developing something that represents 
Social Stigma ala GURPS.  If it's part of DF, fine, but then DF should 
have a name change.  Right now, DF comes across as something that anyone 
can detect with a PER roll.  Magic auras, strange hair/skin color, 
fighting styles, speech, etc.  DF: Homosexual just doesn't 'sound' right. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:32:34 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: SteveL, are you listening, was Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:06 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>No, I'm in favor of 5th edition developing something that represents 
>Social Stigma ala GURPS.  If it's part of DF, fine, but then DF should 
>have a name change.  Right now, DF comes across as something that anyone 
>can detect with a PER roll.  Magic auras, strange hair/skin color, 
>fighting styles, speech, etc.  DF: Homosexual just doesn't 'sound' right. 
> 
Yet ANOTHER vote for some form of 'social' or 'secret other than ID' disad 
for Fifth! 
 
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:19:52 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening, was Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 27 
 
<<Yet ANOTHER vote for some form of 'social' or 'secret other than ID' disad 
for Fifth!>> 
 
 Yes, I am listening. :) 
  And taking notes.  Lots of notes.  Need a new printer cartridge, in fact. 
  However, I don't read *every single* mail on the list -- once a thread runs 
off into an obscure tangent, or I feel I've picked up the salient points of a 
particular debate, I often delete later mails, because I have so many e-mails 
to read and so little time during the day (or so it always seems to me :) ). 
Therefore, I *sincerely* appreciate it when a poster notes my name in the 
title of the post to draw attention to a point that is considered to be 
extremely important -- as Lizard did here.  That ensures that I see key points 
and, if a question to me is involved, that I can be sure to answer it. In 
particular, differentiating Steves (Peterson from Long) is a big help. :) 
  At the same time, there's no need to raise points repeatedly or to keep 
drawing my attention to a particular issue.  If you really want to emphasize 
something, or, even better, just want to check to make sure I've got something 
in my notes, send me a private e-mail.  That will save other list readers 
frustration and time. 
 
  But, that aside, let me repeat what I said before -- please (a) keep making 
suggestions, and (b) specifically drawing my attention to points you feel are 
important.  When I say I appreciate 'em, I mean it -- and the same goes for 
when I say they're helpful. 
  So, back to the regularly scheduled discussion.... :) 
 
Steve Long  
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:58:37 -0700 
To: SteveL1979@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening, was Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Alright, I get the hint, I'll stop harping on it now that I've got a 
'confirm' that you're considering it. :) 
 
(BTW, our games tend to involve a lot of: 
a)Character throwing characters at other characters 
b)Characters picking up large things and using them as baseball bats 
c)Character picking up other, usually unconscious, characters and using 
THEM as baseball bats. 
 
The rules are somewhat hazy on such things. Perhaps a clarification? For 
example,how big does someone have to be before tossing him is an AE attack? 
If someone is in a suit of power armor, does he make a more effective club 
than someone who isn't? 
) 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening, was Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:14:52 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 31 
 
>  Yes, I am listening. :)  
>   And taking notes.  Lots of notes.  Need a new printer cartridge, in fact.  
>[snip] 
>   But, that aside, let me repeat what I said before -- please (a) keep making  
> suggestions, and (b) specifically drawing my attention to points you feel are  
> important.  When I say I appreciate 'em, I mean it -- and the same goes for  
> when I say they're helpful.  
>   So, back to the regularly scheduled discussion.... :)  
 
The problem is that we don't know what ones you have seen/considered/  
accepted/discarded/etc and we cannot really expect you to 
keep us up to date (no matter how much we'd prefer this) since we would 
far prefer that you get it done in the first place.  It is a catch-22.  We 
would not keep pointing out the obvious if we knew what you have already 
seen.  But if you were to keep us up-to-date on what you had seen, you 
would never get done. 
 
Like most people on this list, as soon as 5th ed was announced, I wanted 
it.  Totally irrational, but nonetheless, it was my reaction. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:27:41 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening, was Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 32 
 
In a message dated 98-06-15 14:23:47 EDT, why@superlink.net writes: 
 
<< The problem is that we don't know what ones you have seen/considered/  
 accepted/discarded/etc and we cannot really expect you to 
 keep us up to date (no matter how much we'd prefer this) since we would 
 far prefer that you get it done in the first place.  It is a catch-22.  We 
 would not keep pointing out the obvious if we knew what you have already 
 seen.  But if you were to keep us up-to-date on what you had seen, you 
 would never get done. 
  
 Like most people on this list, as soon as 5th ed was announced, I wanted 
 it.  Totally irrational, but nonetheless, it was my reaction. >> 
 
  Oh, I understand.  I want to see it all done, too. :)  That's why I said, 
feel free to ask me if I've noted something or seen it before -- I just figure 
e-mailing me direct is preferable. :) 
 
Steve Long 
 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Subjects (Was Re: SteveL, are you listening) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:56:32 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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X-UID: 33 
 
 
> Therefore, I *sincerely* appreciate it when a poster notes my name in the 
> title of the post to draw attention to a point that is considered to be 
> extremely important -- as Lizard did here.  That ensures that I see key points 
 
  This is probably futile, but I want to make a reminder to folks 
here.  I've seen this sort of request made before on a newsgroup or 
ML where a "celebrity" was a poster.  What often ends up happening is 
that *everybody* starts placing the guy's name on *ALL* posts, making it 
a worthless indicator of importance.  It also runs into the problem of nobody 
bothering to take the name _out_ of the Subject line long after the thread 
has dissolved into tangents. 
  (This was especially prevalent on Babylon 5 newsgroups and lists,  
the phrase "Attn: JMS" became pretty universal for awhile) 
 
  So please, trim your Subjects! 
 
                                              Daniel Pawtowski 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:33:19 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:32 AM 6/15/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>At 12:06 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
>>No, I'm in favor of 5th edition developing something that represents 
>>Social Stigma ala GURPS.  If it's part of DF, fine, but then DF should 
>>have a name change.  Right now, DF comes across as something that anyone 
>>can detect with a PER roll.  Magic auras, strange hair/skin color, 
>>fighting styles, speech, etc.  DF: Homosexual just doesn't 'sound' right. 
>> 
>Yet ANOTHER vote for some form of 'social' or 'secret other than ID' disad 
>for Fifth! 
 
   Actually, I think it's durn near unanimous....  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:44:51 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:19 PM 6/15/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote: 
><<Yet ANOTHER vote for some form of 'social' or 'secret other than ID' disad 
>for Fifth!>> 
> 
> Yes, I am listening. :) 
>  And taking notes.  Lots of notes.  Need a new printer cartridge, in fact. 
>  However, I don't read *every single* mail on the list -- once a thread runs 
>off into an obscure tangent, or I feel I've picked up the salient points of a 
>particular debate, I often delete later mails, because I have so many e-mails 
>to read and so little time during the day (or so it always seems to me :) ). 
 
   Suggestion: Scan those later ones in case your name comes up, or 
something happens to catch your eye.  :-]  I do that, and while it's 
usually a waste, I have picked up a couple of gems that way. 
 
>Therefore, I *sincerely* appreciate it when a poster notes my name in the 
>title of the post to draw attention to a point that is considered to be 
>extremely important -- as Lizard did here.  That ensures that I see key 
points 
>and, if a question to me is involved, that I can be sure to answer it. In 
>particular, differentiating Steves (Peterson from Long) is a big help. :) 
 
   Or Perrin.... ;-] 
   And isn't there at least one other Steve with hero ties? 
   (I also still differentiate between Bruce Harlick and Bruce Tong, though 
that's probably a wasted effort from old habit.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:34:03 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:33 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 09:32 AM 6/15/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>>At 12:06 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> 
>>>No, I'm in favor of 5th edition developing something that represents 
>>>Social Stigma ala GURPS.  If it's part of DF, fine, but then DF should 
>>>have a name change.  Right now, DF comes across as something that anyone 
>>>can detect with a PER roll.  Magic auras, strange hair/skin color, 
>>>fighting styles, speech, etc.  DF: Homosexual just doesn't 'sound' right. 
>>> 
>>Yet ANOTHER vote for some form of 'social' or 'secret other than ID' disad 
>>for Fifth! 
> 
>   Actually, I think it's durn near unanimous....  :-] 
 
Yes, well, on this list, that's a rarity worthy of comment in itself. 
Though I will say this list has NOTHING on the GURPS list when it comes to 
free-floating-flamewars. 
 
(Subscribe to the GURPS list. Say "Katana". Then duck.) 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:42:58 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Batting Practice 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Lizard wrote: 
> 
> (BTW, our games tend to involve a lot of: 
> a)Character throwing characters at other characters 
> b)Characters picking up large things and using them as baseball bats 
> c)Character picking up other, usually unconscious, characters and using 
> THEM as baseball bats. 
>  
> The rules are somewhat hazy on such things. Perhaps a clarification? For 
> example,how big does someone have to be before tossing him is an AE attack? 
> If someone is in a suit of power armor, does he make a more effective club 
> than someone who isn't? 
> ) 
 
I've been thinking of using these rules which have been derived from 
various editions and play experience: 
 
1.  If object or character is large enough to fill a hex, it becomes an area 
    effect.  Three levels of growth for a character.  It also depends on 
    shape, but that's a GM call.  A telephone pole may be big, but may get 
    bonuses to OCV instead of Area. Would the Martial Artist have to dive 
    for cover or would his DCV assume he jumps the pole as it comes through? 
2.  Objects can only do damage up to (DEF + BODY)d6. 
3.  With objects, the OCV mods with non-hex attacks differ depending on size 
    and shape. 
4.  Using Characters as weapons.  If they cooperate, I wouldn't adjust the CV. 
    If they don't cooperate heavy minuses should be involved.  The numbers 
    I would use are: -(1/2 bat's CV) or -2 if unconscious. 
5.  Throwing people about:  Same modifiers.  I believe the BBB already says 
    that cooperating people are aerodynamic.  Otherwise they are not. 
6.  Damage:  Both items take damage.  Objects may be destroyed.  If the 
    character is being thrown, they could breakfall or follow with a fastball 
    special. Base the breakfall minuses on velocity.  Fastball special 
    requires cooperation and a phase.  It's a move-through or move-by where 
the 
    thrower just needs to get the throwee to the target hex, where the throwee 
    then makes an attack roll per usual move-* rules. Damage is done the same 
    way. 
 
I'm probably leaving a few things out, but this is a start. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:36:39 -0400 (EDT) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
Reply-To: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
>  
> > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> > > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
> > >   
> > > > For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable 
> > > > SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb.  In 
> > > > conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting 
> > > > chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well. 
> > >  
> > > Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal.  This also dosn't give 
> > > any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well. 
> >  
> > Well, it /is/ a bit unusual, yes.   The regaining of the BODY is of course 
> > done via the (rather significant) Regeneration power - if you like, add on 
> > the minor limit 'limb unusable until BODY damage is healed'. 
 
<And...> 
 
> > > > I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed limbs 
> > > > - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall.  You might  
> > > > want to look into this possibility as well. 
> > >  
> > > They can, which brings up the next question... who would you defince 
> > > *that* ability?  Indirect TK? 
> >  
> > Probably I'd use Indirect Stretching, since the limbs are still 'part' of 
> > the character.  Another possibility is Indirect TK, OIF Severed Limb, 
> > since attacks on the severed limb shouldn't hurt the Wu directly. 
>  
> Hey!  I like that power!  Thanks for the suggestion! 
 
	I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
 
	Let me explain:  Say you're creating a gadgeteer who uses a 
remote-controlled car mounted with a camera in order spy on people.  It's 
basically Clairsentience through a focus: but would the focus be the car, 
or the remote controll?  If the car is taken, the person who took it 
can't use it - he needs the controller.  So the focus would be the remote 
control, right? 
 
	Say someone scoops up the severed Wu arm.  He can't use it's TK, 
right?  Or, because it's Inaccessible, could he not pick it up at all? 
OR, does Inaccessible only prevent the limb from being ripped off the 
Wu's body, and the fact that no-one else can use it is covered by making 
the focus Personal?  Unless the Wu are easier to tear apart than normal 
people, wouldn't "severing the limb" fall under the "takes surgery  
to remove clause" in the Focus rules (BBB p.105)?  Wouldn't it be more 
appropriate to take the disad "Only usable when limb severed", with a 
value proportionate to the frequency of decapitations in your games,  
rather than Focus?  Or am I overthinking all of this? 
 
	Here's an idea - sell off the Wu's arms, and buy two identical 
"Animate Arm" multipowers that look something like this; 
 
?	Multipower (? point reserve) 
?u	? STR TK, Indirect, Only usable when arm is severed 
?u	1 Extra Limb 
 
	Or, you could write it up as an EC - Severed Limb powers!  Or a 
pair of Followers!  Or a Summon, Trigger when Arms Severed! 
 
	That's it, I'm picking up the first 3x3 trade this Friday after 
work. ;) 
 
	            William K. Bushway, wbushway@gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		   -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Dave Mattingly" <dmattingly@platsoft.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes 
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:53:18 +1000 
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That seems to be the plan at this point. I'll be sure to inform the list as 
 
to how much of an 'issue' the whole 'leaves body behind' thing becomes. 
 
---------- 
> From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes 
> Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 11:29 PM 
>  
> This sounds like a perfect use of Multiform with the limitation (normally 
> used just for Desolid) of Leaves Physical Body Behind. If the jackers are 
> severely tied into their holocreations, then their nervous systems, 
mental 
> functions, etc. could be put at risk from feedback (damage) from the 
holo. 
>  
> When the jackers jack in, the holos come to life there in the room, and 
the 
> jackers can see (through the holos' eyes) their own bodies lifeless and 
> hooked up to various equipment. 
>  
> Dave Mattingly 
> http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes.  
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:01:16 +1000 
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---------- 
> From: Dr. Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> 
> To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Hard Light Heroes.  
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:07 AM 
>  
 
> You could also do it as Desolid, leaves body behind (-1), and buy Affects 
> Real World on all of their relevant powers - this would mean that all the 
> superheros are practically indestructible, but it would make sense for a 
> 'hard light' hologram (IMHO).  They would probably be vulnerable to 
> attacks that interfered with whatever sort of information transmission 
> they were using. 
>   
 
This is actually a good idea, but I think it might make them a bit *too* 
indestructable...then again they are supposed to be tough. I also intend to 
 
place psyc lims dealing with this, so that if a particular super is known  
for dodging stuff, (as in a martial artist, ect) he won't just stand around 
 
bouncing bullets- even though he can. After all, these punks are posers,  
not the most stable lads on the planet.  
 
 
 
> J 
>  
> Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
> Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
>  
>  
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:47:52 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie writes: 
<snip intro from Michael Surfbrook> 
>> Hmm... possibly.  Persoanlly, I prefer using SID right now.  Once 
>> discovered it could become a DF (or a Reputation). 
 
>I don't think the nature of the Disadvantage should change based on 
whether 
>they hide it or not. 
 
>> > Basically, homosexuality is a disadvantage only in that it influences 
>> > society's/people's reactions to the character. Distinctive Features 
>> > is the Disadvantage whose mechanics are suited to represent that. 
>>  
>> Right now.  I thik 5th Edition needs to work on this. 
 
>Hmm. You favour separating the "Strong/Extreme Reactions" part out from 
>Distinctive Features, then? 
 
Why not combine the Secret (ID) and Distinctive (Features)?  I don't know 
what you would call it, Distinctiveness?  Isn't Secret just the next level 
harder to discover than "Easily Concealed"?  The only way you get any 
points for Secret is if the reaction is strong enough to warrent the extra 
points.  In other words, Secret by itself is worth nothing.  Haven't 
thought this through, but thought I would throw it out there anyway :-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hunting vs Hunted 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:57:03 -0500 
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David Stallard writes: 
>In 2nd Edition Champions, I think it specifices in the Hunted disad that 
>you can replace the words "Hunted by" with "Hunting" if your character is 
>trying to track somebody down.  This is the way my group has always done 
>it, even in 4th Ed where "Hunting" isn't specifically mentioned as far as 
I 
>can remember (gee, hope I don't get blasted with messages pointing me to a 
>page number).  However, when I mentioned this a while back, someone said 
>that "Hunting" is a Psych Lim, not a special form of Hunted.  Both ways 
>make sense to me, but I think using it as a special form of Hunted gives 
>you a better point value based on who you are Hunting....  If you're 
>Hunting anybody related to Viper in order to bring that organization to 
its 
>knees, you ought to get more points than if you're Hunting your long lost 
>uncle Joe Incompetent Normal.  Psych Lim doesn't really reflect this.  
>Anyway, do most of you use Psych Lim to represent "Hunting", or do you 
>follow the same guidelines as Hunted? 
 
We only play FH.  Unless I was playing a campaign where the characters were 
definitely opposed to some organization, I would never allow "hunting".  I 
don't think I could make them earn the points, and still cover the "general 
adventure" that we do.  OTOH, if playing Champions or a different style 
campaign, I might see it differently.  I suppose it is how specific or 
broad you want the disadvantage.  For example, my FH elves cannot "hunt" 
orcs.  Rather they "dislike" orcs with all that it entails. 
 
Another question to ask would be _why_ the character is hunting someone (or 
several someones).  And finally, if they character caught everyone in the 
hunted, would he need a new disadvantage, or would he still have a psych 
limit? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:19:19 -0500 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>We only play FH.  Unless I was playing a campaign where the characters were 
>definitely opposed to some organization, I would never allow "hunting".  I 
>don't think I could make them earn the points, and still cover the "general 
>adventure" that we do.  OTOH, if playing Champions or a different style 
>campaign, I might see it differently.  I suppose it is how specific or 
>broad you want the disadvantage.  For example, my FH elves cannot "hunt" 
>orcs.  Rather they "dislike" orcs with all that it entails. 
> 
>Another question to ask would be _why_ the character is hunting someone (or 
>several someones).  And finally, if they character caught everyone in the 
>hunted, would he need a new disadvantage, or would he still have a psych 
>limit? 
 
There may be exceptions -- I can't think of one just now -- but in general 
I agree that Hunting should be decently specific.  A Hunt should be 
something the character has *some* chance of completing eventually.  Using 
that guideline, your elves could not Hunt orcs, nor could a character in 
most horror campaigns Hunt (uppercase) vampires, even if he hunted them 
(lowercase) frequently.  There are just too many of them for one person to 
ever catch them all.  The hunt is therefore hopeless, in terms of eventual 
resolution, and should probably be defined as another type of Psych Lim. 
 
 
FOX: Brimstone (Tue 9 pm) - A dead cop (Peter Horton) strikes a deal with  
the devil and returns to Earth to hunt down 113 escaped souls wreaking  
havoc on Earth. 
 
The TV show above is on FOX's 1998 Fall schedule.  It's an example of a 
character concept that could be written up with a Hunting, but it does beg 
the question you just asked:  what happens when all 113 escaped souls are 
recaptured?  Theoretically, the show is cancelled and the dead cop returns 
to Hell to be tortured in whatever manner his deal with the devil required. 
 Practically speaking, however, the show will almost certainly be cancelled 
long before we see him catch up to 113 targets; if the Hunting describes a 
prey that is sufficiently broad or elusive, you don't *really* have to 
worry about "What happens when...?" because realistically, that day will 
never come anyway.  I think Hunting is okay as long as it's *theoretically* 
within the character's capabilities to complete the Hunt, it needn't be 
guaranteed. 
 
If the prey is narrowly defined (i.e., the one-armed man who killed my wife 
and made me a fugitive), then yes, that Disad would need to be bought off 
when the hunt resolved itself.  I recommend handling this by setting aside 
one XP every couple of adventures, creating a Disad buy-off fund.  That 
way, when the hunt is resolved, you already have the points set aside to 
buy it off on the spot. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:46:14 -0400 
To: <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net&> "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Noisy 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:22 PM 6/8/98 -0700, Woodie wrote: 
>Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy 
Hero, called, 
>"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical power 
that could be 
>easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable distances. 
 
This is in the 1990 FH Campaign book, pg. 65 as a -1/4 under Limited Power 
with no other description. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:07:10 -500 
Subject: Re: Superhero 101 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
 
> Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero. 
> For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.  
> What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ? 
> What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need 
> to know or be able to do ? 
>  
> Curt 
 
 
Paramedics: Keep the death count low. This includes your team mates,  
too. 
 
Bureacratics: How to cut red tape, and influence public servants. 
 
KS: Super Villians: Know your enemy. 
 
Self Defense: This includes physical conditioning, martial arts, and  
weapons training. 
 
Useful Skills: lock picking, slight of hand, stealth, shadowing,  
concealment, tracking, survival, climbing, swimming, streetwise,  
interrogation, and disguise. 
 
 
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:23:56 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William K Bushway wrote: 
 
> > > > They can, which brings up the next question... who would you defince 
> > > > *that* ability?  Indirect TK? 
> > >  
> > > Probably I'd use Indirect Stretching, since the limbs are still 'part' of 
> > > the character.  Another possibility is Indirect TK, OIF Severed Limb, 
> > > since attacks on the severed limb shouldn't hurt the Wu directly. 
> >  
> > Hey!  I like that power!  Thanks for the suggestion! 
>  
> 	I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
> a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
 
Not exactly.  Here, the OIF bit is being used to define the fact that it 
is a foci of sorts.  I have also seen OIF 'weapon of opportunity' as well, 
where the current weapon is an OAF, but disarming the character simply 
means he has to waste a phase or two looking for a new one.  Here, using 
OIF/OAF may not be the correct terms, but the severed limbs *are* a foci 
of srots.  There is also the fact the taking the limbs won't hurt the Wu 
per say, he'll just regenerate what was lost. 
 
Hmm... a Wu sounds like a real disgusting character to play at times... 
  
> 	Let me explain:  Say you're creating a gadgeteer who uses a 
> remote-controlled car mounted with a camera in order spy on people.  It's 
> basically Clairsentience through a focus: but would the focus be the car, 
> or the remote controll?  If the car is taken, the person who took it 
> can't use it - he needs the controller.  So the focus would be the remote 
> control, right? 
 
Nope, it's the car.  The car is the primary foci, wreak or steal that and 
your power is no good.  It doesn't matter if it needs a control, that 
means it is a 'personal' rather than a 'universal' foci.  For example, if 
you have a magic ring that only lets *you* walk on water, it is still a 
foci that can get stolen, even though the thief can use it. 
  
> 	Say someone scoops up the severed Wu arm.  He can't use it's TK, 
> right?  Or, because it's Inaccessible, could he not pick it up at all? 
> OR, does Inaccessible only prevent the limb from being ripped off the 
> Wu's body, and the fact that no-one else can use it is covered by making 
> the focus Personal?  Unless the Wu are easier to tear apart than normal 
> people, wouldn't "severing the limb" fall under the "takes surgery  
> to remove clause" in the Focus rules (BBB p.105)?  Wouldn't it be more 
> appropriate to take the disad "Only usable when limb severed", with a 
> value proportionate to the frequency of decapitations in your games,  
> rather than Focus?  Or am I overthinking all of this? 
 
See above for some of the foci questions.  Basically, I agree with your 
assessment that the disad should be "Only usable when limb severed" or 
something similar. 
  
> 	That's it, I'm picking up the first 3x3 trade this Friday after 
> work. ;) 
 
Well, the two trades don't really show this power in action.  Although, 
Yakumo gets his head lopped off in book two and still is animate (both 
head and body).  Err... there is a strange power.  Worse still, Dark Horse 
probably won't produce any more 3x3 Eyes comics, since they didn't sell 
well enough. 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:21:41 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: STR Min (was something else) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    I've always played that if you pay points for a weapon, Weapon 
> Familiarity with that specific weapon and any identical weapons is a part 
> of it.  To use a similar weapon that you didn't pay points for, you need 
> Weapon Familiarity. 
>    For example, If Sir Loin has paid points for the Sword of Cuisinart, 
> then he doesn't need need WF: Swords to use the Sword of Cuisinart 
> effectively.  He might need it for the Sword of D'Tails, though, or a 
> ninja's katana. 
>    I don't recall whether anything to this effect is in the Hero4 book, but 
> something on this issue should be mentioned (if only a paragraph) in Hero5. 
 
HSR, 4ed, p. 40 
 
Weapon Familiarity 
 
Characters have to buy Weapon Familiarity in order to know how to use 
weapons.  This ruls should only be used in heroic campaigns.  (A 
character should never have to buy Familiarity with a weapon that he id 
points for.) 
 
In my low-power superheroic campaign, I require Weapon familiarity for 
characters who want to wield "found" weapons, or who buy weapons with 
money, using a Purchase Pool.   I have taken WF on characters who have 
paid for a magical weapon (focus) with points to allow them to use 
similar weapons should the focus be taken away. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:54 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ross Rannells wrote: 
> 
> Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> 
> > At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> > >If you want the drug to kill 
> > >people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible. 
 
> > How does this simulate a slow steady death?  It's invisible.  Thus the 
> > person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next.  Use a 
> > BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death".  Besides, what is the common 
> > effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. 
> 
>   The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal 
> person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably sick, 
 
Since a Cumulative Transform has no effect (or at most cosmetic effect) 
until it is complete, it is inherent in the definition of Transform that 
the user will show no serious effects until, one day, he drops dead. 
 
> take it the slower they die.  The common effect that reverses the drug depends on 
> the FX of the drug.  * * * 
 
[rare snake venom example snipped] 
 
This doesn't answer the problem.  A Transform, *even when complete*, must 
be reversed either gradually by normal healing, Aid or Regeneration, or 
by some identifiable method.  While this method does not have the 
"reasonably common and obvious" stricture, neither should it involve 
having enough Dispel to reverse the Transform or enough Transform to 
retransform the character, since these methods would work in any event. 
 
Once a person has been transformed completely to a corpse, do they turn 
back into a living person after a couple of months, depending on their 
REC?  Do they turn back into a living person after being given your snake 
venom?  After being kissed by a Princess?  How is the completed 
transformation reversed? 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:23:51 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: DNPC Appearances 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
> 
> What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group?  When the 
> villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that public 
> place?  It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs 
> would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains.  Are 
> their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something 
> similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added 
> factor in a combat situation? 
 
I have not been very good at using DNPCs to their full advantage, but 
here are some examples from my campaign. 
 
Amy Zhou is the niece of a Tong leader, who is one of the principal 
enemies of Jade Cobra.  She also happens to be in love with Jade Cobra. 
Recently, having learned of a plot to capture Jade Cobra, she armed 
herself with knockout drops and set out to rescue him.  Unknown to her, 
of course, he didn't need rescuing, but had allowed himself to be 
captured in order to gain information.  He failed to recognize her, and 
thought she was an assassin come to kill him, so he attacked her.  Ooops! 
 
Another DNPC was used as the plot hook for an adventure: the charitable 
trust that paid the DNPC's tuition was bankrupted by an embezzlement. 
The PCs then felt compelled to investigate, and discovered that a 
mysterious hacker with Mind Control powers had forced the executive to 
embezzle the money, and had transferred it to a Middle Eastern terrorist 
organization via Switzerland. 
 
Another DNPC is the daughter of Tanith.  In one adventure, a mentalist 
(Freak from Underworld Enemies) used this against Tanith by inducing a 
sudden fear for her safety.  In another adventure, a child molester was 
actually operating in the neighborhood, and was thwarted by Tanith's 
Genius Loci (bought as an AI follower).  The PCs then chased down the 
molester.  In general, Miranda causes Tanith to miss parts of adventures, 
as she commutes from wherever the adventure is to her home. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:24:58 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> 
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
> 
> > I am increasingly fond of removing the 'usable against others' power entirely 
> > -- use another power. 
 
If there is another power that will work more directly, then that power 
should certainly should be used: however, there are cases where there is 
no other power that will work, and a larger number of cases where the 
effect is more straightforward using UAO. 
 
> 
> Yep. Usable Against Others is pretty much inherently a crock. Teleport 
 
In what way?  Please be specific: UAO does not look like a crock to me. 
It is certainly less of a crock than most applications of Transform that 
I have seen.  In fact, the only defect that I can see is that it could 
use the same type of quantifiable/cumulative feature that Transform has. 
 
This is, IMHO, easily remedied by defining part of the defense as Power 
Defense and then linking the power to: 
 
10      2D6 Drain Power Defense Linked to UAO attack(-1/2) 
        Applies only to Linked attack(-1/2) 
 
I know GMs who would make the last limitation -0, as part of the 
justification for linking the powers.  YMMV. 
 
 
> and XDM would probably need to include some sort of mechanic for making 
> them usable against others in the actual Power description 
 
And Shrinking, and Growth, and .... 
 
This power-specific advantage would probably have the essential features 
of UAO: 
 
        - requiring a "to hit" roll; therefore an attack action, 
        - mandating some sort of defense, possibly Teleportation, 
                Desolidification or Power Defense, as suggested 
                under UAO. 
        - increasing the cost for using Teleportation on massive objects. 
 
I effect, this would result in publishing four or more sets of 
essentially identical rules to cover what one advantage now covers.  This 
is bad rules design. 
 
> (alternately, 
> a new Power(s) could be created for this purpose). 
 
Why bother?  I don't see what one would change about the mechanic to 
justify creating a new power to do what an existing advantage allows. 
 
>                                                      Any other use for 
> UAO can be done with another, more appropriate Power. 
 
This is an overly general statement.  Consider the following examples, 
which cannot be done with any other power.  Even if we were to ignore the 
common-sense stricture that Transform not be used to duplicate existing 
powers (such as healing), the mechanic is wrong in each case. 
 
a) 10   Regeneration UAO(+1) 0 DCV Concentration(-1/2)  Uses END(-1/2) 
 
        This might represent a healing spell.  It cannot be done UBO, 
        because then the END would have to be paid by the patient, 
        who is very probably unconscious.  It cannot be done by Aid, 
        because that has a limit on the number of points cured, which 
        makes no sense for the special effect. 
 
b) 50   10PD/10ED Force Field UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) 
 
        This can be used to protect a character who is unconscious, 
        sleeping, unaware, or even unwilling.  UBO cannot do this. 
        Force Wall is the wrong mechanic, since it is desired to 
        protect the character, not to englobe it. 
 
c) 60   Desolidification UAO(+1) 
 
        This can be used to get an opponent out of the way or to 
        protect an unconscious or unaware ally.  There is no other 
        power that can be used for this purpose. 
 
d) 74   3 levels Shrinking UAO(+1) w/ 4D6 Suppress STR Linked(-1/2) 
 
        This will shrink an opponent and rob him of an amount of STR 
        that would correspond to 3 levels Growth, but only so long as 
        END is expended.  Again, there is no other power that can be 
        used for this purpose. 
 
Again, Transform is inappropriate for any of the above, and UAO seems to 
work fairly well.  Consider that Transform works very badly for any 
effect that should be quantifiable, since there is no point distinction 
between a Transform that shrinks a target to 1/8 size and one that 
shrinks the target to 1/32 size. 
 
In fact, the more I think about it, the more that I come to the 
opposite conclusion that most Transforms should be abandoned in favor of 
other combinations of powers and advantages.  For example, instead of a 
blinding attack as a Major Transform, as recommended in the book, one 
could take it as Drain Normal Sight with a long recovery time.  Normal 
Sight is a Discriminatory, Targeting, Ranged Sense [30 active points], so 
one would have to drain 30 points to turn it off.  Intermediate effects 
could be taken as minuses to PER rolls. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:25:39 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
> 
> On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:06:23 -0500 (CDT), Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
> 
> >I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign. 
> >The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically, 
> >a new drug. 
> 
> I presume you mean narcotic, not drug. 
 
I don't understand this comment.  A narcotic is a drug that induces 
torpor, sleep and ultimately coma depending on dosage.  This drug sounds 
more like a super-stimulant: perhaps an amphetamine-derivative mixed with 
some type of steroid. 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:02:12 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West writes: 
>In fact, the more I think about it, the more that I come to the 
>opposite conclusion that most Transforms should be abandoned in favor of 
>other combinations of powers and advantages.  For example, instead of a 
>blinding attack as a Major Transform, as recommended in the book, one 
>could take it as Drain Normal Sight with a long recovery time.  Normal 
>Sight is a Discriminatory, Targeting, Ranged Sense [30 active points], so 
>one would have to drain 30 points to turn it off.  Intermediate effects 
>could be taken as minuses to PER rolls. 
 
I sometime wonder if being allowed to buy a long recovery time on Flash 
might not be a better simulation of blindness.  OTOH, I've never quite had 
the will to allow this, because of the low cost of 1d6 Flash.  Still, If 
the first die of Flash costs 20 points, +10 per die, this might make sense. 
 
Also, has anyone every wanted a better way to cause someone to lose their 
voice, other than Transform.  I'm almost ready to declare a house rule of 
"voice" as a sense, just like sight, hearing, etc.  In any game with 
incantations, it seems that causing a loss of voice is more on par with 
losing sight, than hearing.  (And it makes a good side effect for those 
spells with incantations :-)  But like above, I hesitate over the cost of 
1d6.  Comments? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:54:52 -0500 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Wildstrike! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:32 PM 6/16/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>I asked on the Fuzion mailing list for any more information they can give, 
>but I thought you guys might be interested if you haven't already seen the 
>note on the web page.  Since Instant Fuzion and Instant Hero are the same 
>thing, maybe this'll bring the two camps (HSR vs Fuzion) closer together. 
 
Yes, but since Instant HERO and kosher HERO *aren't* the same thing, don't 
bet on it. :/ 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:34:01 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> qts wrote: 
> > 
> > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:06:23 -0500 (CDT), Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
> > 
> > >I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign. 
> > >The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically, 
> > >a new drug. 
> > 
> > I presume you mean narcotic, not drug. 
>  
> I don't understand this comment.  A narcotic is a drug that induces 
> torpor, sleep and ultimately coma depending on dosage.  This drug sounds 
> more like a super-stimulant: perhaps an amphetamine-derivative mixed with 
> some type of steroid. 
 
   As someone not actually involved in this particular discussion 
thread, I believe the intent was to differentiate between the overall 
category of 'drugs' (which include prescription medicines and benificial 
substances), and the more insodious and usually illegal subset of drugs 
which often have as many or more negative results than positive; often 
lumped together under the heading 'narcotics' or 'controlled 
substances'. 
 
 
--  
  -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:37:29 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: SteveL, are you listening 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> (Subscribe to the GURPS list. Say "Katana". Then duck.) 
 
Dr. N pulls the pin on a soft, fluffy biscuit and chucks it out of the 
foxhole, where it goes off in a nuclear explosion devastating the Lakota 
forces and...  
 
Hey, wait...I'm posting the GURPSnet running joke to a different list... 
 
Save yourselves, run while you still can! 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:43:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William K Bushway wrote: 
 
< snip 'Telekinesis, OIF Severed Limb' power for Wu > 
 
> 	I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
> a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
 
Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
their user's posession. 
  
> 	Say someone scoops up the severed Wu arm.  He can't use it's TK, 
> right?   
 
Well, not as effectively - someone else is holding the arm, preventing it 
from moving around. 
 
> Or, because it's Inaccessible, could he not pick it up at all? 
 
Actually, I suggested OIF because it can't be easily taken away from him, 
and he /will/ grow a new one of the previous arm is destroyed.  (That 
whole destroyed thing is another reason I chose Focus - one could hack the 
arm into pieces without further damaging the Wu, it would only make the TK 
power useless until he regrew the arm.) 
 
> Unless the Wu are easier to tear apart than normal 
> people, wouldn't "severing the limb" fall under the "takes surgery  
> to remove clause" in the Focus rules (BBB p.105)? 
 
Well, they're not necessarily easier to dismember than a normal 
human...but they can survive it a lot better, sothe focus /can/ be 
'removed' without killing them.  And since their defenses are based on 
regeneration rather than resistant PD/ED, they probably /are/ going to 
fall apart quicker than your average super (they'll just put themselves 
back together again).  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:51:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>  
> Robert A. West writes: 
> >In fact, the more I think about it, the more that I come to the 
> >opposite conclusion that most Transforms should be abandoned in favor of 
> >other combinations of powers and advantages.  For example, instead of a 
> >blinding attack as a Major Transform, as recommended in the book, one 
> >could take it as Drain Normal Sight with a long recovery time. 
>  
> I sometime wonder if being allowed to buy a long recovery time on Flash 
> might not be a better simulation of blindness.  OTOH, I've never quite had 
> the will to allow this, because of the low cost of 1d6 Flash.  Still, If 
> the first die of Flash costs 20 points, +10 per die, this might make sense. 
 
Well, Flash isn't really that low cost, since you only count the BODY on  
the dice.  Each 10 points (1D6) gives one phase of effect on average. 
 
The problem with increased recovery time for Flash is inherent, and  
independent of the cost: the only measure of effect for Flash is  
duration.  This is not true for Drain.  Thus, both of the following are  
reasonable powers: 
 
30	3D6 Drain STR: Fade 5/turn. 
30	2D6 Drain STR: Fade 5/5 min(+1/2) 
 
The first power will decrease STR by 10.5 points on average, but the  
effect goes away quickly.  The second power will only decrease STR by 7  
points on average, but the effect will last for an entire battle.  This  
is a reasonabe choice: do I want to get rid of an extra 1D6 of attack  
now, or do I want to make sure the 1D6 I took away is gone for the  
duration? 
 
Now, consider giving the advantage to Flash: 
 
30	3D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/Phase 
30	2D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/Minute(+1/2) 
 
Neither of these will penetrate a minimum buy of Flash Defense, so being  
blinded for two points is no better than being blinded for three.  The  
only thing that matters is for how long the character is blinded.  In the  
first case, the target will recover sight after three phases.  In the  
second, the target will recover sight after two minutes, which is at  
least twenty phases: a sevenfold increase in power.   
 
Conclusion: if the Advantage is available, one should never buy more dice  
of Flash, unless one is buying enough dice to penetrate Flash Defense.   
Then, one should buy *just* enough dice to get through the defense. 
 
Increasing the cost of Flash does nothing to change this conclusion.   
Under your proposed change to cost: 
 
30	2D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/phase 
30	1D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/minute 
 
The first power lasts two phases on average, and the second lasts one  
minute, which is at least ten phases: a fivefold increase in power.  Both  
targets are still totally blind for the duration. 
 
Changing the cost of the Advantage will have very little effect on the  
choice, unless you make it +2 per time increment.  The prevalence of  
Flash Defense will only make the situation worse.  Using your suggested  
cost: 
 
90	9D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/Phase 
90	6D6 Flash Normal Sight: Recover 1/min(+1/2) 
 
The first power will blind an opponent with no Flash Defense for 9 phases  
or so, and an opponent with minimum Flash Defense for 4 phases or so.   
The second power will blind an opponent with no Flash Defense for 6  
minutes (60 phases at minimum), and an opponent with minimum Flash  
Defense has a >90% chance of being blinded for one minute (at least 10  
phases) or longer.  Of course, the phase/minute ratio becomes more in  
favor of the Advantage when used against supers, who are more apt to have  
Flash Defense. 
 
 
>  
> Also, has anyone every wanted a better way to cause someone to lose their 
> voice, other than Transform.  I'm almost ready to declare a house rule of 
> "voice" as a sense, just like sight, hearing, etc.  In any game with 
> incantations, it seems that causing a loss of voice is more on par with 
> losing sight, than hearing.  (And it makes a good side effect for those 
> spells with incantations :-)  But like above, I hesitate over the cost of 
> 1d6.  Comments? 
>  
> Steven Mitchell 
> mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  are you listening 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:51:28 +1000 
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> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Lizard wrote: 
>  
> > (Subscribe to the GURPS list. Say "Katana". Then duck.) 
>  
> Dr. N pulls the pin on a soft, fluffy biscuit and chucks it out of the 
> foxhole, where it goes off in a nuclear explosion devastating the Lakota 
> forces and...  
>  
> Hey, wait...I'm posting the GURPSnet running joke to a different list... 
>  
> Save yourselves, run while you still can! 
>  
 
alright. . .drop the emote. . and step away slowly with your hands up. . . 
 .  
:->~ 
 
 
 
> J 
>  
> Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
> Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
>  
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 19:38:23  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:54 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> 
>> Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> 
>> > At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> > >If you want the drug to kill 
>> > >people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible. 
> 
>> > How does this simulate a slow steady death?  It's invisible.  Thus the 
>> > person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next.  Use a 
>> > BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death".  Besides, what is the common 
>> > effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. 
>> 
>>   The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal 
>> person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably sick, 
> 
>Since a Cumulative Transform has no effect (or at most cosmetic effect) 
>until it is complete, it is inherent in the definition of Transform that 
>the user will show no serious effects until, one day, he drops dead. 
 
One could always put on a Limitation to the above effect. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 19:39:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:25:39 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
>> 
>> On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:06:23 -0500 (CDT), Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>> 
>> >I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign. 
>> >The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically, 
>> >a new drug. 
>> 
>> I presume you mean narcotic, not drug. 
> 
>I don't understand this comment.  A narcotic is a drug that induces 
>torpor, sleep and ultimately coma depending on dosage.  This drug sounds 
>more like a super-stimulant: perhaps an amphetamine-derivative mixed with 
>some type of steroid. 
 
Fair enough then; it didn't seem clear. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:32:07 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Wildstrike! 
Cc: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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I just saw on http://www.herogames.com that a superhero arena combat game 
called "Wildstrike!" (based in the C:NM world and using Instant Fuzion) 
will be revealed at GenCon. 
 
I asked on the Fuzion mailing list for any more information they can give, 
but I thought you guys might be interested if you haven't already seen the 
note on the web page.  Since Instant Fuzion and Instant Hero are the same 
thing, maybe this'll bring the two camps (HSR vs Fuzion) closer together. 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:45:06 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Wildstrike! 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David Stallard writes: 
> I asked on the Fuzion mailing list for any more information they can give, 
> but I thought you guys might be interested if you haven't already seen the 
> note on the web page.  Since Instant Fuzion and Instant Hero are the same 
> thing, maybe this'll bring the two camps (HSR vs Fuzion) closer together. 
> 
Well, given that 'Instant Hero' isn't _part_ of the hero system, I doubt that 
its resemblance to fuzion will much affect anyone... 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:57:24 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Wildstrike! 
Cc: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Anthony Jackson 
>Well, given that 'Instant Hero' isn't _part_ of the hero system, I doubt 
that 
its resemblance to fuzion will much affect anyone...< 
 
I think Instant Hero is going to be published in the 5th Edition Hero 
System Rules (Steve Long or some other official, correct me if I'm wrong), 
so it will be an "official" part of the Hero System soon. 
 
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:45:15 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wildstrike! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<<I think Instant Hero is going to be published in the 5th Edition Hero 
System Rules (Steve Long or some other official, correct me if I'm wrong), 
so it will be an "official" part of the Hero System soon.>> 
 
  Relevant snippage from a recent post on the Fuzion mailing list: 
 
<<The game features a full-color map, full color character cards (with Instant 
Fuzion stats on the flip side), and full color cardboard figures, along with a 
black&white rulebook. It all fits into a 5.5" x 8" package for $10. It's 
designed to be played without a GM as a pure combat game, though you can also 
use it as an easy rules set to get people into the New Millennium universe. 
Also, it's important to note that Instant Fuzion is the same as Instant Hero 
(which, in fact, was where Fuzion started several years ago)... and in fact 
will be included with the new 5th Edition Hero System rules. We'll show you 
how to take Instant Fuzion characters and turn them into full Fuzion  or full 
Hero System characters. 
 
I've advanced the story line of the Wildstrikers (the one you read about in 
Bay City). There's some good roleplaying opportunities there, too, and we'll 
be posting full Fuzion and Hero System versions of the Wildstrike characters 
to the web site, as well as some adventure ideas.>> 
 
  Hopefully that clears things up. :) 
 
Steve Long 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:04:06 EDT 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wildstrike! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 6/16/98 2:03:46 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes: 
 
>I think Instant Hero is going to be published in the 5th Edition Hero 
>System Rules (Steve Long or some other official, correct me if I'm wrong), 
>so it will be an "official" part of the Hero System soon. 
> 
 
That's correct. Instant Hero was the project that resulted in Fuzion, and 
we're bringing it to completion in the 5th Edition. Essentially, Instant 
Hero/Instant Fuzion is a simplified set of the stats you need to run combat, 
along with the simplest subset of the combat rules. Which serves as a useful 
tool for getting new players into the game, as well as speeding up combat when 
you have a larger number of players and/or opponents. Also, Instant 
Hero/Instant Fuzion stats are a handy way to give a GM the basics of a 
character; see Bay City for an example of this. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:17 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Noisy 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
>Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy 
Hero, called, 
>"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical power 
that could be 
>easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable distances. 
 
>Noisy 
> 
>A "noisy" power is a power which is easily detectable to some sense. The 
sense may be but 
>is not limited to sound. How much this limitation is worth depends upon how 
common the 
>sense, how "noisy" the power is, and whether or not the sense is typically 
Targeting. 
> 
>Sense is (in the real world, for examples): 
> 
>Very Common (Example: Hearing) -1/2 
>Common (Example: Radio Hearing, possessed by anyone with a radio on) -1/4 
>Uncommon (Example: Detect: Neutrons, possessed only by those with Geiger 
counters and 
>other, similar devices) -0 
>Targeting Sense -1/4 
 
 
I have long allowed a -1/4 Limitation: No Stealth.  This simply means when 
using the power, the character has no chance to use Stealth or Concealment 
skills.  IT simulates especially loud or bright powers, gives them a bonus 
for the limited nature of the power, and doesn't involve any other 
complicated emchanics.  IT's worked great for me in my games. 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:34:04 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
CC: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> <snip> 
> If the prey is narrowly defined (i.e., the one-armed man who killed my wife 
> and made me a fugitive), then yes, that Disad would need to be bought off 
> when the hunt resolved itself.  I recommend handling this by setting aside 
> one XP every couple of adventures, creating a Disad buy-off fund.  That 
> way, when the hunt is resolved, you already have the points set aside to 
> buy it off on the spot. 
> 
> Damon 
> 
 
This is close to the way I've always run it.  For narrow hunts (individual or 
small groups)  the character could not fulfill the hunt (whether it was for an 
object or person) until the hunting disad was paid off.  Then and only then were 
they allowed to complete the quest.  It got to be fairly frustrating for the 
character when the goal would slip through their hands (sometimes in very 
contrived manors unfortunately) 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:55:51 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
CC: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> <snip> 
> This doesn't answer the problem.  A Transform, *even when complete*, must 
> be reversed either gradually by normal healing, Aid or Regeneration, or 
> by some identifiable method.  While this method does not have the 
> "reasonably common and obvious" stricture, neither should it involve 
> having enough Dispel to reverse the Transform or enough Transform to 
> retransform the character, since these methods would work in any event. 
> 
> Once a person has been transformed completely to a corpse, do they turn 
> back into a living person after a couple of months, depending on their 
> REC?  Do they turn back into a living person after being given your snake 
> venom?  After being kissed by a Princess?  How is the completed 
> transformation reversed? 
> 
 
Depends on the recover time.  If the recover time is 5/day then they would slowly turn 
back to a living being.  If the recovery time is 5/year then then starvation will kill 
them before they recover from being a corpse.  Unless of course proper medical care is 
given to keep the mostly dead body partly alive until it can recover from being mostly 
dead.  Admittedly, probably not the answer you are looking for, but if you want to get 
into specifics we'll need to define the drug more eactly.  Rather then the 
generalizations that we have been discussing. 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:12:24 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William K Bushway wrote: 
> 
> < snip 'Telekinesis, OIF Severed Limb' power for Wu > 
> 
> >       I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
> > a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
> 
> Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
> foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
> their user's posession. 
 
This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either hand 
attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
 
> <snip 
> 
 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:16:46 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
>> foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
>> their user's posession. 
> 
>This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
>America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either 
hand 
>attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
>sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
 
Odin has taken away Mjolnir more than once, and the U.S. government took 
away Cap's shield in a storyline several years back.  Their owners may not 
lose control of them very often, but it *does* happen...doesn't that 
preclude their being just SFX? 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:52 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
>  
> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:54 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> >Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >> > >If you want the drug to kill 
> >> > >people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible. 
> > 
> >> > How does this simulate a slow steady death?  It's invisible.  Thus the 
> >> > person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next.  Use a 
> >> > BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death".  Besides, what is the common 
> >> > effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. 
> >> 
> >>   The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal 
> >> person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably sick, 
> > 
> >Since a Cumulative Transform has no effect (or at most cosmetic effect) 
> >until it is complete, it is inherent in the definition of Transform that 
> >the user will show no serious effects until, one day, he drops dead. 
>  
> One could always put on a Limitation to the above effect. 
 
Put on an Advantage to make it Invisible, then put on a Limitation to  
make is Visible?  This fails the common-sense test. 
 
In any case, as I pointed out in the remainder of the cited post,  
Transform is the wrong power for this effect -- one cannot Transform to a  
Corpse, because then the Transformation would be irreversable, and an  
irreversable Transformation is prohibited. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:34:56 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ross Rannells wrote: 
>  
> Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > <snip> 
> > This doesn't answer the problem.  A Transform, *even when complete*, must 
> > be reversed either gradually by normal healing, Aid or Regeneration, or 
> > by some identifiable method.  . . . 
> > 
> > Once a person has been transformed completely to a corpse, do they turn 
> > back into a living person after a couple of months, depending on their 
> > REC?  Do they turn back into a living person after being given your snake 
> > venom?  After being kissed by a Princess?  How is the completed 
> > transformation reversed? 
> > 
>  
> Depends on the recover time.  If the recover time is 5/day then they would slowly turn 
> back to a living being.  If the recovery time is 5/year then then starvation will kill 
> them before they recover from being a corpse.   
 
Recover time?  I think that you are confusing Transform with an  
Adjustment Power.  Transform is a Standard Power that changes an object.  
Points of Transformation are reckoned against the BODY total.  These  
Transformation Points generally heal as would normal BODY: REC per month.  
There is no Advantage to buy this recovery rate down.  Some  
Transformations are defined as all-or-nothing: they are instantly  
cancelled if a predefined act is performed, and REC is irrelevant. 
 
 
>                             Unless of course proper medical care is 
> given to keep the mostly dead body partly alive until it can recover from being mostly 
> dead.  Admittedly, probably not the answer you are looking for, but if you want to get 
> into specifics we'll need to define the drug more eactly.  Rather then the 
> generalizations that we have been discussing. 
 
But now you have given up "Transform to Corpse," and substituted  
"Transform to Persistent Vegetative State," which is a cluster of  
25-point Physical Limitations.  If this is done, one can put in feeding  
tubes and keep them in until the Transform Points heal naturally, over  
the course of a couple of months, as you suggest. 
 
My objection was to the Transform originally proposed, "Transform to  
Corpse."  Such a transform is and ought to be illegal, for the reasons I  
have stated. 
 
In any event, it would be far simpler and more straightforward to define  
a drug as doing BODY Drain or giving a person a BODY susceptability as a  
Side Effect. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:48:27 +1000 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:49 PM 6/13/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
>> > > DR. MANHATTAN 
>> > > (Jon Osterman) 
>> > >  
>> > > Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
>> > > 75	STR	65	24-	800 tons; 15d6 
>> >  
>> > I don't know that he ever displays great physical strength, except when 
>> > he's grown to immense size. (But then, why would he need to?) 
>>  
>> Actually he does.  In Chapter 1, when Rorschach is in his lab, we see him 
>> casually lift some immense machine while Rorschach and Silk Spectre II 
>> talk. 
> 
>So he does. Seems a bit out of character, though. 
 
It's worth noting that DC Heroes 4th Ed gives him 20 AP strength, Supes has 
25, Wonder Woman 16 APs so that suggests that he has a fair degree of super 
strength inherently. 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 06:38:34 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
cc: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ross Rannells rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 6/16/98 9:34 PM 
 
>Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
> 
>> <snip> 
>> If the prey is narrowly defined (i.e., the one-armed man who killed my wife 
>> and made me a fugitive), then yes, that Disad would need to be bought off 
>> when the hunt resolved itself.  I recommend handling this by setting aside 
>> one XP every couple of adventures, creating a Disad buy-off fund.  That 
>> way, when the hunt is resolved, you already have the points set aside to 
>> buy it off on the spot. 
> 
>This is close to the way I've always run it.  For narrow hunts (individual or 
>small groups)  the character could not fulfill the hunt (whether it was  
>for an object or person) until the hunting disad was paid off.  Then and only  
>then were they allowed to complete the quest.  It got to be fairly  
>frustrating for the character when the goal would slip through their hands  
>(sometimes in very contrived manors unfortunately) 
 
You know, something seems basically unfair about this approach.  If a  
character 
picks up a new hunted, no points, if a character is severly disfigured in  
an  
accident picking up a DF, no points, if a character develops a sever  
phobia 
after a harrowing experience, no points...if a character manages to  
eliminate 
a hunted or hunter, durn tootin he's gotta pay points for it. 
 
I know the arguement revolves around game balance, but it seems to me  
that all 
the campaign events eventually balance out.  So what if they off the  
hunted,  
most likely something else deamed a 0 point limitation, sense it appears  
after  
the start of play, will ppartially or totally take its place and, if its  
a  
partial, and some point the "vanished" points will eventually reappear in  
0  
point disads from other events or 1 shot "unluck" used by the GM to  
further the 
plot anyway. 
 
Just my $0.02. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 10:43:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:52 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
>>  
>> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:54 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>>  
>> >Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> > At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >> > >If you want the drug to kill 
>> >> > >people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible. 
>> > 
>> >> > How does this simulate a slow steady death?  It's invisible.  Thus the 
>> >> > person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next.  Use a 
>> >> > BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death".  Besides, what is the common 
>> >> > effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. 
>> >> 
>> >>   The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal 
>> >> person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably sick, 
>> > 
>> >Since a Cumulative Transform has no effect (or at most cosmetic effect) 
>> >until it is complete, it is inherent in the definition of Transform that 
>> >the user will show no serious effects until, one day, he drops dead. 
>>  
>> One could always put on a Limitation to the above effect. 
> 
>Put on an Advantage to make it Invisible, then put on a Limitation to  
>make is Visible?  This fails the common-sense test. 
 
Actually no - you seem to be confusing 'visible' and 'Visible'. With 
the latter, everyone would know a Power was at work, even if they 
couldn't locate the source; with the former, they just see that 
*something*  is wrong. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 10:45:16  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:52 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>In any case, as I pointed out in the remainder of the cited post,  
>Transform is the wrong power for this effect -- one cannot Transform to a  
>Corpse, because then the Transformation would be irreversable, and an  
>irreversable Transformation is prohibited. 
 
Sure you can - just specify Resurrection as the reversal. This is one 
way of modelling turning a living being into an Undead servitor, for 
instance. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:43:46 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
> >  
> Odin has taken away Mjolnir more than once, and the U.S. government took 
> away Cap's shield in a storyline several years back.  Their owners may 
not 
> lose control of them very often, but it *does* happen...doesn't that 
> preclude their being just SFX? 
 
No. The fact that Mjolnir is almost never taken, and can be summoned by 
Thor, cause Mjolnir to be SFX. SFX can _sometimes_ have significant game 
impact, which is what happens when Odin takes the hammer. After all, he 
could have just turned Thor into a mortal, but that doesn't make Thor's 
'godhood' an IIF. 
 
On the other hand, Cap's shield has been taken away on more than one 
occasion. When he is captured, he is routinely disarmed by enemies who 
don't have plans that involve his being armed. As it is normally strapped 
to his arm, and when thrown is almost never caught or deflected so that Cap 
loses it, it is an OIF rather than an OAF, but it is a focus. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:48:59 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John P Weatherman wrote: 
> I know the arguement revolves around game balance, but it seems to me 
> that all the campaign events eventually balance out.  So what if they off 
> the hunted, most likely something else deamed a 0 point limitation, sense 
> it appears after the start of play, will ppartially or totally take its 
> place and, if its a partial, and some point the "vanished" points will 
> eventually reappear in 0 point disads from other events or 1 shot "unluck" 
> used by the GM to further the plot anyway. 
 
I would say you're correct in your approach.  If a character managed to do 
something about a disad, give the player the option of switching it to 
something else.  If he's hunting a particular villain and finally brings 
him in, he can pick up a hunted from some family member in exchange.  Or 
perhaps 
the final battle takes place in a air freshener factory and our hero develops 
a bad allergy.  Contriving things to frustrate the player is not the best way. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:38 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William K Bushway wrote: 
> > 
> > < snip 'Telekinesis, OIF Severed Limb' power for Wu > 
> > 
> > >       I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
> > > a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
> > 
> > Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
> > foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
> > their user's posession. 
>  
> This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
> America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either hand 
> attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
> sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
 
Cap's shield has been taken away from him in fights, actually - been 
deflected before he can catch it on the return, etc. 
 
Anyway, if you don't like that idea, think about a throwing knife - 
obviously it's a focus, but it doesn't have to remain in your posession to 
be useful.  Or one of Spiderman's spider-tracers.  Or a land mine. All of 
these things are Foci, but they generally do not remain in the user's 
posession while they are used. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:02:59 -0400 (EDT) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
Reply-To: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote: 
 
<snip...> 
 
> This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
> America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either hand 
> attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
> sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
 
	Well, I've never been much of a Thor reader (but I must recommend 
the new series), I do remember that in the Infinity Gauntlet miniseries 
Thanos took Mjolnir away from Eric Masterson (who was acting as Thor at 
that point).  True, Eric wasn't the *real* Thor (if he lost the hammer for 
longer than 30 seconds he would revert to normal), and Thanos was 
omnipotent and omniscient at the time (though he professed not to be using 
the omniscience in that particular fight). 
 
	Cap, however, has lost his shield.  In fact, since the new series 
started he's already lost his round one - permanently, it seems.  Now he's 
gone back to using the triangular shield he had in his first appearances, 
and he's complained about how much less effective it is.  Seems he can't 
"bounce" it anymore (or, at least not as well), nor can he make it return 
to him.  Cap's shield is definitely OIF. 
 
	            William K. Bushway, wbushway@gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		   -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) 
From: "K. Ulstein" <kenhar@u.washington.edu> 
cc: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
(scary voice on) 
I'm an Evil doctor and I've can create batches of poison that can 
contaminate people but remain inert until my birthday. Once my 
birthday comes around the virus will awake and everyone I hate 
will die a sudden death, even Bruce Brick and Captain Force Shield. I 
just have to infect them first! 
(scary voice off) 
 
Ranged Killing Attack 
+1/4 Time Delay          (experation date: My birthday) 
+1/4 Difficult to Dispel  
+1/2 Penetrating          
+1   Continuous           
+1/2 Uncontrolled        (Obvious and common cure? Choose one.) 
 
-1/2 No range 
-4   10x Increased End* 
-1/4 no knock back (unless the 'poison' is a cortex bomb) 
-?   Focus 
-?   Limitation, (yada yada yada) 
 
* The obvious choice is Extra time or Charges. But I chose Increased 
End instead. If it was Extra Time, then Evil MD wouldn't be able to 
stockpile the virus. If it was charges then he could set the 
expiration date whenever he wanted for each charge. Increased End, 
means that the doctor has to plan in advance when the virus will  
activate and he can only make a few per day. Creating a virus is very 
expensive because he needs to spend END for each phase that the virus 
will take effect. A single batch of virus costs: 
 
End cost = (Active Cost) * Phases the victim takes damage 
 
Victims with Aid or Regeneration can survive if they don't die before 
the Uncontrolled END runs out. So a poison that could kill Aid 
Armadillo would need to last a long time. A poison to kill 
Regeneration Rastifarian woudn't work if the regeneration was faster 
than the poison. 
 
Character notes: 
Evil Doctor will spend most of his time prepairing a huge stockpile of  
his deadly virus. Shortly before the experation date he will rush 
around infecting as many people as he can. Once the infection kicks 
in (on the experation date), the host will die in only a few seconds. 
Only fast teleporters or regenerating wonders can hope to get to the 
hospital before then. The problem is that once someone is infected, 
they can just camp out at the hospital and cure the infection when it 
breaks. The countermeasure to this is invisible power effects and a 
second dose that strikes a week after they fought off the first 
sickness. 
 
If the PC's don't know all this in advance it makes Evil Doctor one of 
those anoying 'think too much and die anyway' campaigns. And That's 
exactly what horror is all about. (IMHO) 
 
____----------____ 
Kenji Ulstein   http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kenhar 
 
A knot is never "nearly right"; it is either exactly right 
or it is hopelessly wrong... 
			-Clifford W. Ashley	 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:50:55 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
To: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---John P Weatherman  wrote: 
> 
> You know, something seems basically unfair about this approach.  If a  
> character 
> picks up a new hunted, no points, if a character is severly 
disfigured in  
> an  
> accident picking up a DF, no points, if a character develops a sever  
> phobia 
> after a harrowing experience, no points...if a character manages to  
> eliminate 
> a hunted or hunter, durn tootin he's gotta pay points for it. 
>  
> I know the arguement revolves around game balance, but it seems to me  
> that all 
> the campaign events eventually balance out.  So what if they off the  
> hunted,  
> most likely something else deamed a 0 point limitation, sense it 
appears  
> after  
> the start of play, will ppartially or totally take its place and, if 
its  
> a  
> partial, and some point the "vanished" points will eventually 
reappear in  
> 0  
> point disads from other events or 1 shot "unluck" used by the GM to  
> further the 
> plot anyway. 
>  
> Just my $0.02. 
>  
> PAX, 
> John 
 
Well, there ware other ways of handling it.  One of the methods I've 
used (but not often) is to allow the PC to trade out the points of 
resolved disads for aquired disads.  I would keep track of the point 
value of any new disads aquired through game play that I felt were 
signifigant (ie. had a high probability of being permanent).  This 
would form a pool of points that could be used to "buy off" disads 
that the PC manged to fully resolve via game play. 
 
As a slightly different method of handling this, I've done this with 
the points on a 2 to 1 ratio (2 points worth of aquired disads to "buy 
off" 1 point worth of resolved disad). 
 
Both methods have worked for me, but I wouldn't neccessarily recommend 
them for everyone.  Like any house-rule that effects effects games 
balance, it's success is extremely dependant on how your players treat 
it. 
 
 
== 
 
============================================== 
        John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================== 
#  Keeper of the Hero Mailing List. Got a question about  # 
#  the list? Scope out www.sysabend.org/champions      # 
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_________________________________________________________ 
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:02:37 -0400 
Lines: 39 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
K Ulstein writes: 
 
> Ranged Killing Attack 
> [...] 
 
You really should try to get ahold of a copy of Adventurers Club 16.  It 
has an excelent article for modeling poisons and other toxic chemicals. 
 
You start okay, but here is what I would do: 
 
Large RKA, say upwards of 6D6 (most effective way of doing BODY damage 
there is). 
NND, NND Does Body (+2), defenses is appropriate immunity. 
Time Delay (as described). 
 
I would not bother with Continuous and Uncontrolled.  One, it is expensive. 
Two, it is not "sudden".  Use a big base attack for that.  If you want it 
to be painful, rather than sudden, you can use the Gradual Effect 
Limitation, also in AC16. 
 
Other Limitations as appropriate. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:10:52 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > Yep. Usable Against Others is pretty much inherently a crock. Teleport 
>  
> In what way?  Please be specific: UAO does not look like a crock to me. 
 
If a Power is defined to allow its user to do X, then its point cost is  
going to be based on the usefulness of doing X. There's no reason to think  
that the usefulness of making somebody else do X is going to be directly  
proportional to the usefulness of doing X, so it makes no sense to change 
a Power which does the former into one which does the latter by applying 
a simple Modifier. 
 
> > and XDM would probably need to include some sort of mechanic for making 
> > them usable against others in the actual Power description 
>  
> And Shrinking, and Growth, and .... 
 
No, those two are trivially doable via Transform. 
 
> Consider the following examples, which cannot be done with any other power. 
>  
> a) 10   Regeneration UAO(+1) 0 DCV Concentration(-1/2)  Uses END(-1/2) 
>  
>         This might represent a healing spell.  It cannot be done UBO, 
>         because then the END would have to be paid by the patient, 
>         who is very probably unconscious.  It cannot be done by Aid, 
>         because that has a limit on the number of points cured, which 
>         makes no sense for the special effect. 
 
Use Aid, and buy up the limit high enough to be able to handle any 
wound you're likely to encounter. 
 
> b) 50   10PD/10ED Force Field UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) 
> 
>         This can be used to protect a character who is unconscious, 
>         sleeping, unaware, or even unwilling.  UBO cannot do this. 
 
Aid to Armour. 
 
> c) 60   Desolidification UAO(+1) 
 
Transform. 
 
> d) 74   3 levels Shrinking UAO(+1) w/ 4D6 Suppress STR Linked(-1/2) 
 
Transform. 
 
> Again, Transform is inappropriate for any of the above, and UAO seems to 
> work fairly well.  Consider that Transform works very badly for any 
> effect that should be quantifiable, since there is no point distinction 
> between a Transform that shrinks a target to 1/8 size and one that 
> shrinks the target to 1/32 size. 
 
If we assume that a target shrunk to 1/8 size has been nullified as a 
combatant, there's no reason why they should cost differently. If not, 
the two should be different levels of Transform. (Yes, Transform suffers 
from an overly coarse granularity, but that's a separate issue.) 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:18:39 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Hmm. You favour separating the "Strong/Extreme Reactions" part out from 
> >Distinctive Features, then? 
>  
>    Now I'm trying to understand the question; I thought they already were 
> separate. 
 
No, "Distinctive Features" currently covers both "things which make me 
recognizable" and "things which make people react badly to me". Or more 
accurately, by the book it covers only the first and things which fit 
both descriptions; there's no clear way to take something which does only 
the second. So my question is, is it better to make the two into different 
Disads, or keep them in one structure and make it explicit that it can 
represent either? 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:21:36 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Silk Spectre II 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > > Aside from her gymnastic training, natural agility and martial arts 
> > > skills, Silk Spectre II has no real 'powers'.  She is more than a match 
> > > for the average thug (or thugs) but way out of her league when compared 
> > > to people like Nite Owl II or Ozymandias. 
> >  
> > Eh? Where is it suggested that she's significantly less competent than 
> > Nite Owl? 
>  
> It's not that she's less competent, it's just that she doesn't have his 
> wealth, gadgets, bases and vehicles to use.  He's got a *lot* of stuff he 
> can access, Silk Spectre II just has herself and her HTH skill. 
 
Fair enough - it's just that the way you phrase it, it sounds like you're 
putting Nite Owl and Ozymandius on one level, with Spectre below. IMO, 
Owl and Spectre are in the same ballpark, with Ozzy way beyond anybody 
else in the series, with the obvious exception of Dr. Manhattan. 
 
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X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:38:43 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John P Weatherman writes: 
<snip> 
>If a character picks up a new hunted, no points, if a character is severly 
disfigured in an accident picking up a DF, no points, if a character 
develops a sever phobia after a harrowing experience, no points...if a 
character manages to eliminate a hunted or hunter, durn tootin he's gotta 
pay points for it.< 
 
>I know the arguement revolves around game balance, but it seems to me that 
all the campaign events eventually balance out.  So what if they off the 
hunted, most likely something else deamed a 0 point limitation, sense it 
appears after the start of play, will ppartially or totally take its place 
and, if its a partial, and some point the "vanished" points will eventually 
reappear in 0 point disads from other events or 1 shot "unluck" used by the 
GM to further the plot anyway.< 
 
Though I didn't explain it very well, this is partially what I meant in a 
different thread when I explained that I just give every character a "Group 
Hunted."  Every character gets 20 points in the group hunted, and normally 
can not take any other Hunted limitation.  This is because I long ago 
observed that all my players quickly accumulated multiple hunteds worth far 
more than 20 points, within just the first few sessions of the campaign.  
It got kind of ridiculous trying to work in their own specific hunteds when 
they were all running for their lives from the enemies they made in play.  
Or put another way, I just set the hunted disadvantage based on how often I 
thought the characters would be hunted in the game, rather than having 
hunters show up based on their conception. 
 
Note that this style only works for certain campaign styles and certain 
players.  (I can't imagine it working in a typical 4 color campaign, though 
I really wouldn't know.) 
 
On a related note, we've been awfully tempted to try some kind of "develop 
the character quickly through play" option, where each character 
accumulated their disadvantages.  Basically, we wanted a way to 
"fast-forward" play.  So a heroic character would start with, say, 20 
points, no disadvantages.  In the first session, they would have an idea 
where they wanted to go, and would accumulate the balance of their full 
starting points (155 in our game), but would only get to spend points based 
on what they did.  Likewise, their 75 points of disadvantages would have to 
logically follow from their actions (and the consequences).  It might go 
something like this: 
 
GM:  "You're all 8 years old and live somewhere in the Realms."  Omit all 
the background material that the GM dispensed before the game started.  
"What do you do first?" 
 
Player 1:  "I'll spend a few months with the guard learning weapons." 
 
GM:  "Explain how you are going to talk the guard into teachiing an 8 year 
old." 
 
Player 1 explains and GM helps him get the right skills.  Was the character 
unusually persuasive, or a noble, or what?  Maybe he learns nothing about 
weapons until he is 10, but picks up all kinds of other skills working as 
the "guard mascot." 
 
Anyone ever tried anything like this?  We think this would lead to better 
characters, _if_ we could make it work. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:53:54 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here's your chance to practice your evil GM laugh: 
 
In our last FH game, one of the characters, a Ranger type, lost her shadow 
to a mirror curse.  This was kind of a spur of the moment GM fix to a last 
second problem with a different trap.  Furthermore, the ranger is taking 
the loss stoically, but the ranger's player is royally spooked.  I plan to 
let this run awhile, since her imagination is making this far worse than it 
is.  I'm looking for suggestions, both for ways to milk this and also how 
to resolve it.  Ideally, they should be things that do no lasting harm, but 
create the illusion that something is terribly wrong.  Comic and Serious 
are both fine.  I can't really use Horror, but if you think of a good one, 
throw it out anyway.  Someone else might want to use the bit. 
 
I've thought of a few obvious ones:  Mistaken for vampire or other foul 
beastie.  Causing nervous reactions in people (even though they don't know 
why).  Rustic villager screams, blabs about the condition, causes mob to 
form. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
To: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes: 
> In our last FH game, one of the characters, a Ranger type, lost her shadow 
> to a mirror curse.  This was kind of a spur of the moment GM fix to a last 
> second problem with a different trap.  Furthermore, the ranger is taking 
> the loss stoically, but the ranger's player is royally spooked.  I plan to 
> let this run awhile, since her imagination is making this far worse than it 
> is.  I'm looking for suggestions, both for ways to milk this and also how 
> to resolve it.  Ideally, they should be things that do no lasting harm, but 
> create the illusion that something is terribly wrong.  Comic and Serious 
> are both fine.  I can't really use Horror, but if you think of a good one, 
> throw it out anyway.  Someone else might want to use the bit. 
 
Traditionally, the shadow (and the reflection) are mirrors of the soul, so if 
you don't have a shadow it indicates you don't have a soul.  This is likely to 
spook quite a lot of people. 
 
It isn't totally clear what the 'mirror trap' actually is, but I'd be inclined 
to assume that her soul is _trapped_ in that mirror (or some other mirror, 
perhaps), or perhaps that it's just a matter of her reflection having lost it's 
link to her.  I'd be tempted to force her (and allies) to actually enter a 
mirror to solve the problem; once inside the mirror things are strange and 
reversed, except where people on the other side of the mirror can see in... 
think 'through the looking glass'; depending on my mood I might be tempted to 
steal the entire book... 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:47:24 -0700 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Jim Dickinson <jdickins@oregonsbest.com> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:50 PM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>Well, there ware other ways of handling it.  One of the methods I've 
>used (but not often) is to allow the PC to trade out the points of 
>resolved disads for aquired disads.  I would keep track of the point 
>value of any new disads aquired through game play that I felt were 
>signifigant (ie. had a high probability of being permanent).  This 
>would form a pool of points that could be used to "buy off" disads 
>that the PC manged to fully resolve via game play. 
 
You could also keep track on the side, and give the character a few extra 
experience points per adventure to help compensate for the new disad he has 
inherited.  this would allow the character to remain "balanced" while not 
slapping them with a sudden influx of EP to spend. 
 
Another option would be to "save" the experience in a "nest egg" for a 
future "radiation accident."  I know that my players almost always LOVED 
having a radiation accident.  One of my characters went through a time when 
he gained some speedster powers after a time travel "accident" accelerated 
him.  He obtained some new powers, re-arranged some of his existing powers, 
and added a few disads (since he had paid some of them off.) 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:53:38 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:53 PM 6/17/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>Here's your chance to practice your evil GM laugh: 
> 
>In our last FH game, one of the characters, a Ranger type, lost her shadow 
>to a mirror curse.  This was kind of a spur of the moment GM fix to a last 
>second problem with a different trap.  Furthermore, the ranger is taking 
>the loss stoically, but the ranger's player is royally spooked.  I plan to 
>let this run awhile, since her imagination is making this far worse than it 
>is.  I'm looking for suggestions, both for ways to milk this and also how 
>to resolve it.  Ideally, they should be things that do no lasting harm, but 
>create the illusion that something is terribly wrong.  Comic and Serious 
>are both fine.  I can't really use Horror, but if you think of a good one, 
>throw it out anyway.  Someone else might want to use the bit. 
> 
>I've thought of a few obvious ones:  Mistaken for vampire or other foul 
>beastie.  Causing nervous reactions in people (even though they don't know 
>why).  Rustic villager screams, blabs about the condition, causes mob to 
>form. 
 
   How about... 
   After word of this spreads a bit, the PC is sought out by another 
Ranger, who offers to take the PC Ranger out to a nearby tavern for a few 
drinks and some fellowship.  He points out that he, too, casts no shadow 
because of a similar curse (note the use of the word "similar"), and that, 
while it isn't really as bad as it may seem, it's easy for society to take 
a negative view of it.  As the night wears on, they start telling each 
other stories about their adventures. 
   Then, as the visiting Ranger throws his head back for a good laugh, the 
PC Ranger notices for the first time that his drinking partner has some 
pretty healthy fangs. 
 
   Or... 
   She could also start to not see her own reflection in mirrors unless 
she's looking directly at them. 
   Some wizard with shadow-based (or light-based) magics could want to 
dissect her (as it were) to find out how this is managed. 
   That's what I can think of offhand. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Manifestations of Magic 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
   I've been trying to work up a magic system, and hitting a snag.  (Those 
of you who have my Teran Magic Plug-In for Fuzion may recognize some of 
this material.) 
   In this system, there are a fixed set of ways that magic can physically 
manifest, and each manifestation has its own advantages and disadvantages, 
which tend to balance out in each case.  The manifestations are listed below. 
   I've only been able to come up with a few.  Fire will cause combustibles 
to ignite, but is easily stopped by water or other flame retardants. 
Lighting (which, of course, is electricity) will travel along metals but be 
stopped altogether by insulrators.  Light will pass right through 
transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
reflected by polished surfaces.  Pure Magic has no modifications (it works 
exactly as the game mechanics say it should). 
   Any further suggestions for any of these? 
   The list: 
 
Air 
Earth 
Fire 
Water 
 
Dust 
Ice 
Lightning 
Steam 
 
Dark 
Light 
Metal 
Wood 
 
Pure Magic 
Spirit 
 
   Thank you all for any help you can give. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:33:56 -0700 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Points for New Disads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:47 PM 6/17/1998 -0700, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
>At 01:50 PM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>>Well, there ware other ways of handling it.  One of the methods I've 
>>used (but not often) is to allow the PC to trade out the points of 
>>resolved disads for aquired disads.  I would keep track of the point 
>>value of any new disads aquired through game play that I felt were 
>>signifigant (ie. had a high probability of being permanent).  This 
>>would form a pool of points that could be used to "buy off" disads 
>>that the PC manged to fully resolve via game play. 
> 
>You could also keep track on the side, and give the character a few extra 
>experience points per adventure to help compensate for the new disad he has 
>inherited.  this would allow the character to remain "balanced" while not 
>slapping them with a sudden influx of EP to spend. 
> 
>Another option would be to "save" the experience in a "nest egg" for a 
>future "radiation accident."  I know that my players almost always LOVED 
>having a radiation accident.  One of my characters went through a time when 
>he gained some speedster powers after a time travel "accident" accelerated 
>him.  He obtained some new powers, re-arranged some of his existing powers, 
>and added a few disads (since he had paid some of them off.) 
 
   Something I've done in the past with some success has been to allow 
characters who get new Disads (new Hunters, new Physical Limitations, etc.) 
to get the full points for those Disads, but require that at least half the 
points from the new Disad go toward something related to it.  For example, 
a superhero who has interfered in VIPER's plans one time too many and picks 
them up as a Hunter might get to devise a new gadget or use for his powers 
that will deal better with VIPER agents, along with a little KS: VIPER to 
reflect his experiences and the research he does in creating the gizmo; or, 
a science-fiction character who loses his vision might get a cybernetic 
visor to take over the function (a la Geordi LaForge, and provide a few 
added goodies as well (all bought with points). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:28:37 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> >> Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
> >> foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
> >> their user's posession. 
> > 
> >This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
> >America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either 
> hand 
> >attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
> >sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
> 
> Odin has taken away Mjolnir more than once, and the U.S. government took 
> away Cap's shield in a storyline several years back.  Their owners may not 
> lose control of them very often, but it *does* happen...doesn't that 
> preclude their being just SFX? 
> 
> Damon 
> 
 
No, its called plot development.  Limiting, suppressing or taking away powers are 
sometimes used as plot development.  Look how many times its happened to Storm and 
her powers have no focus be it a limitation or a special effect.  It's happened to 
Spiderman, Magneto and any numbers of others.  Powers get taken away all the time, 
its just more common with foci 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:03:56 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
>  
> Here's your chance to practice your evil GM laugh: 
>  
> In our last FH game, one of the characters, a Ranger type, lost her 
shadow 
> to a mirror curse.  This was kind of a spur of the moment GM fix to a 
last 
> second problem with a different trap.  Furthermore, the ranger is taking 
> the loss stoically, but the ranger's player is royally spooked.  I plan 
to 
> let this run awhile, since her imagination is making this far worse than 
it 
> is.  I'm looking for suggestions, both for ways to milk this and also how 
> to resolve it.  Ideally, they should be things that do no lasting harm, 
but 
> create the illusion that something is terribly wrong.  Comic and Serious 
> are both fine.  I can't really use Horror, but if you think of a good 
one, 
> throw it out anyway.  Someone else might want to use the bit. 
>  
> I've thought of a few obvious ones:  Mistaken for vampire or other foul 
> beastie.  Causing nervous reactions in people (even though they don't 
know 
> why).  Rustic villager screams, blabs about the condition, causes mob to 
> form. 
 
The character, upon entering an area unfamiliar to her, hears stories about 
"shadows" which haunt the nearby graveyard. If the character investigates, 
have some supposedly knowledgeable person, possibly a very spooky one, 
point out, "Shadows are souls without bodies, just as a shadowless man is a 
body without a soul." 
 
Have the character encounter a person who reacts really strangely to them, 
seemingly terrified. Person, if pushed, may drop hints, or even go mad, 
with vague references to the character being dead, unable to be here, etc. 
Give the impression that the person has powers which show that the 
character is soulless or dead, but in reality the ranger is the spitting 
image of the man's long dead wife, who he secretly drowned. If desired, 
other people in the town may have known her, and thus react strangely, but 
not as strangely, and they won't talk about it to strangers. Maybe they all 
suspect, but hated her and like him. Maybe they had good reason, and hints 
about that reason ("In the crowd, you hear someone mutter something about 
'black magic'." "I look for the person who said that." "A person looks up 
as you approach, seemingly scared, and runs away.") are frequently heard, 
but never explained. 
 
Have a book found, "Secrets of the Undead" or something similar. Have 
references to how Undead bodies have no shadows. Create other references 
which "coincidentally" match things that are happening in the real world to 
the character. 
 
Have a knowledgeable person, possibly a powerful mage, note the lack of a 
shadow. Though he seemingly shrugs it off, he casually picks up mirrors and 
looks at the character in them, picks up garlic and belladonna and starts 
carrying them around, etc. 
 
Have the person lose their reflection, too. Alternately, have them find a 
mirror which only allows you to see others reflections, and not your own, 
produced by a wizard who wanted to see who thought they were sneaking up 
behind him, and let the character be the only person who looks in the 
mirror for a while. Alternately, the mirror only shows people more than 
four feet away, so others see themselves fine, because they don't get 
close. 
 
Have them find a wonderful, beautiful little chapel somewhere. For some 
reason, the character is repelled by it. Imply that it is because of the 
holiness, but in reality it is due to a smell of death that the ranger's 
better sense of smell catches subliminally, or a repulsion because the 
chapel is secretly horribly defiled (murdered children were sacrificed on 
the altar and buried beneath it), which only the ranger senses because she 
is the only member of the group who ever prayed to the god to which the 
chapel is supposedly dedicated. 
 
Black cats hate the ranger. All cats hate the ranger. All animals hate the 
ranger. Reasons can be anything from coincidence to walking through a bush 
that has a fragrance that humans can't smell, but which animals hate. 
 
Have the ranger get food poisoning or otherwise sick. Have this happen just 
after she reads a book about how a body begins to die of similar symptoms 
when it has no soul. 
 
Thanks. That was fun.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:17:46 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
CC: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hunting vs Hunted 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
John P Weatherman wrote: 
 
> Ross Rannells rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 6/16/98 9:34 PM 
> 
> >Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
> > 
> >> <snip> 
> >> If the prey is narrowly defined (i.e., the one-armed man who killed my wife 
> >> and made me a fugitive), then yes, that Disad would need to be bought off 
> >> when the hunt resolved itself.  I recommend handling this by setting aside 
> >> one XP every couple of adventures, creating a Disad buy-off fund.  That 
> >> way, when the hunt is resolved, you already have the points set aside to 
> >> buy it off on the spot. 
> > 
> >This is close to the way I've always run it.  For narrow hunts (individual or 
> >small groups)  the character could not fulfill the hunt (whether it was 
> >for an object or person) until the hunting disad was paid off.  Then and only 
> >then were they allowed to complete the quest.  It got to be fairly 
> >frustrating for the character when the goal would slip through their hands 
> >(sometimes in very contrived manors unfortunately) 
> 
> You know, something seems basically unfair about this approach.  If a 
> character 
> picks up a new hunted, no points, if a character is severly disfigured in 
> an 
> accident picking up a DF, no points, if a character develops a sever 
> phobia 
> after a harrowing experience, no points...if a character manages to 
> eliminate 
> a hunted or hunter, durn tootin he's gotta pay points for it. 
> 
> I know the arguement revolves around game balance, but it seems to me 
> that all 
> the campaign events eventually balance out.  So what if they off the 
> hunted, 
> most likely something else deamed a 0 point limitation, sense it appears 
> after 
> the start of play, will ppartially or totally take its place and, if its 
> a 
> partial, and some point the "vanished" points will eventually reappear in 
> 0 
> point disads from other events or 1 shot "unluck" used by the GM to 
> further the 
> plot anyway. 
> 
> Just my $0.02. 
> 
> PAX, 
> John 
 
  In my campaigns, for every 5 experience points you gain, you get 3 points in 
disadvantages.  This keeps the point totals at the same ratio for all characters 
60% disads and 40% base.  A caveat to this is that no villian or hero in my 
campaigns get a villian or hero bonus.  A 500 point villian in my campaign have 
200 base points and 300 points of disads.  In my opinion this keeps everything 
relatively equal as long as every character is kept to the 60/40 point split new 
comers are not overly or underly disadvantaged. 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:18:38 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
<partially snipped> 
>   In this system, there are a fixed set of ways that magic can physically 
>manifest, and each manifestation has its own advantages and disadvantages, 
>which tend to balance out in each case.  The manifestations are listed 
below. 
>   I've only been able to come up with a few.  Fire will cause 
combustibles 
>to ignite, but is easily stopped by water or other flame retardants. 
>Lighting (which, of course, is electricity) will travel along metals but 
be 
>stopped altogether by insulrators.  Light will pass right through 
>transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
>reflected by polished surfaces.  Pure Magic has no modifications (it works 
>exactly as the game mechanics say it should). 
>   Any further suggestions for any of these? 
>   The list: 
 
>Air 
>Earth 
>Fire 
>Water 
 
>Dust 
>Ice 
>Lightning 
>Steam 
 
>Dark 
>Light 
>Metal 
>Wood 
 
>Pure Magic 
>Spirit 
 
I can see why this is hard.  Everything I come up with for your second 
group (Dust, etc.) involves something that shouldn't be free and isn't 
necessarily inherent.  What is a Steam attack but heat that gets around the 
normal Fire limitations? 
 
Is the list set and you just want ideas for advantages and limitations?  Or 
are you interested in adding to the list?  For example, do you want Weather 
magic separate, or is it just a combination of others, like Air and Water? 
 
Don't know if this helps, but here's how we do Light magic:  Everything 
runs off of an END Battery (or charges or whatever limits the uses) and 
only recharges rapidly in its own elements--i.e. Dark mages can only 
recharge rapidly in complete Darkness.  It recharges slowly as long as 
partially in its element--i.e. Moon and Star magic recharges slowly under 
the Sun or cloudy night skies. 
 
Sun 
Moon and Star 
Shadow 
Dark 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:36:59 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Jim Dickinson writes: 
>So here is maybe a dumb question: 
>If someone has lost their shadow...and they walk past you as you are 
>sitting on the ground in the sun...and they walk between YOU and the 
>SUN...so normally a shadow would fall on you...and you are looking at them 
>as they pass before the sun... 
 
>What do you see?  Will the sun shine through them like they weren't there? 
>Or would they still block the sun from view...and then STILL not cast a 
>shadow...?? 
 
>Just wondering. 
 
Well, I think it depends on why she lost her shadow and where it is now.  A 
little background I didn't share before.  She lost her shadow when her 
reflection stepped out of the mirror.  (The players all thought it was the 
dreaded "mirror of opposition" bit again.  Groans all around :-)  Her 
reflection refused to respond or act in any manner, except follow her 
around--but not on the ground or wall like a well-behaved shadow would. 
 
This is where the GM improvisation started.  The player was so spooked that 
the party couldn't get anything done.  Conveniently, the next room held a 
fiery undead creature, the remains of a mage and a magical accident, which 
was still "warm".  I had the reflection (and the shadow) "disappear" when 
it interacted with the wild magic of the accident.  My current working 
premise is that the reflection has the shadow and that the reflection is 
now invisible.  But it is still following the character to the best of its 
ability. 
 
So to answer your question:  If the PC walks in front of someone, she will 
block the sun but not cast a shadow--she's just as tangible as she ever 
was.  When her reflection come tagging along some time later, it will not 
block the sun, but will cast the shadow.  However, the above is all just a 
working hypothesis thought out quickly after the game.  I'm open to other 
suggestions. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:44:44 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Filksinger writes: 
>Have a book found, "Secrets of the Undead" or something similar. Have 
>references to how Undead bodies have no shadows. Create other references 
>which "coincidentally" match things that are happening in the real world 
to 
>the character. 
 
Hey, I really like this one.  As luck would have it, another party member 
is a priest of Horus/Re (all undead are "minions of Set).  He really plays 
this up.  Even better, the player is married to the player of the ranger 
without a shadow.  But dare I go there? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:03:58 -0500 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Send the shadow through a mystic portal to 1930's New York.  Have it 
recruit a body of agents and fight crime.  No?  Okay, then... 
 
The PC hasn't lost her shadow, just become separated from it.  It doesn't 
like her much (the shadow's independent will is suppressed while it is 
attached to the PC, and now that it's free it would rather stay that way) 
but it is nevertheless compelled to stay close to her.  Perhaps the shadow 
cannot maintain its own existence for long, and must rejoin the host body 
periodically to "recharge".  At least one version of DC's Spectre character 
was written this way. 
 
Treat the shadow as a doppleganger or evil twin.  Under certain conditions, 
the shadow can assume the visible form of the PC.  Though it wouldn't be 
solid, it might have some limited TK that would allow it to manage gross 
manipulation of objects.  The shadow may not be evil, but will act in its 
own interests against those of the PC if it thinks it can find a way to 
remain separate. 
 
Typically, this kind of story is resolved in one of two ways:  (1) have the 
shadow and its host realize they literally cannot live without each other, 
and voluntarily -- if reluctantly, on the part of the shadow -- re-merge; 
or (2) trick the shadow into doing whatever will force the merger.  For 
example, lure the shadow into the room with the cursed mirror.  The PC is 
present, and has prepared the room for this situation.  The room is 
suddenly and completely flooded with light from several sources (those 
preparations I mentioned), dispelling all shadows in the room, including 
the ranger's independant shadow. 
 
Actually, that last scenario works best if the animated shadow isn't the 
PC's twin at all, but an evil spirit who has possessed the ranger's shadow, 
making it independent in the process.  Faced with the destruction of his 
shadow form, the spirit would flee back into the mirror.  The mirror is 
then covered, normal lighting is restored, and the ranger has her shadow back. 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:44:47 +1000 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted 
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At 09:12 PM 6/16/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> 
> 
>Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
> 
>> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William K Bushway wrote: 
>> 
>> < snip 'Telekinesis, OIF Severed Limb' power for Wu > 
>> 
>> >       I've never done a focus like this before.  If the severed limb was 
>> > a focus, wouldn't it have to remain in the Wu's possesion? 
>> 
>> Captain America's shield and Thor's hammer both come to mind - they are 
>> foci, but they can be thrown (for example) and do not have to remain in 
>> their user's posession. 
> 
>This is not how I've seen this interpreted.  Thor's hammer and Captain 
>America's shield are not foci they are special effiects.  They are either 
hand 
>attack usable at range or physical energy blast with not foci limitation  The 
>sheild and hammer are never lost and always return since they are not foci. 
> 
Nope, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. 
Firstly let's not forget that there have been times when Cap's shield has 
been unavailable for a scene or so in the comic (stuck in a malleable 
opponent, wrenched away by Magneto etc) and secondly he's lost his original 
shield now. 
 
Thor's hammer is another story, without it he can't fly, move between 
dimensions, he apparently needs it to control weather. He has in the past 
had it captured by opponents, used by allies (Including Captain America). 
 
They are focuses, but, IMO they'd be OIFs as neither would be easy to 
disarm. 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:47:36 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 05:00 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   I've only been able to come up with a few.  Fire will cause combustibles 
>to ignite, but is easily stopped by water or other flame retardants. 
>Lighting (which, of course, is electricity) will travel along metals but be 
>stopped altogether by insulrators.  Light will pass right through 
>transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
>reflected by polished surfaces.  Pure Magic has no modifications (it works 
>exactly as the game mechanics say it should). 
 
Are you looking for interactions?  Or more manifestations?  Or Both? 
 
>   Any further suggestions for any of these? 
>Air 
>Earth 
>Fire 
>Water 
> 
>Dust 
>Ice 
>Lightning 
>Steam 
> 
>Dark 
>Light 
>Metal 
>Wood 
> 
>Pure Magic 
>Spirit 
 
Spirit/Life Essence 
Spirit/Mind 
Flesh 
 
Earth/Stone 
Earth/Dirt 
Mud 
Acid 
 
Weather 
Anti-Magic 
ExtraPlanar? 
Summoning? (Yeah, it's one power, but there might be rules, e.g. circles.) 
Divination? 
 
 
I was working on something similar but I wasn't sure that I was going to 
actually codify the SFX or make them part of the spell descriptions (a la 
GURPS).  I also wanted it to work with the existing spell lists. 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:47:53 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
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At 07:10 PM 6/17/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>> In what way?  Please be specific: UAO does not look like a crock to me. 
> 
>If a Power is defined to allow its user to do X, then its point cost is  
>going to be based on the usefulness of doing X. There's no reason to think  
>that the usefulness of making somebody else do X is going to be directly  
>proportional to the usefulness of doing X, so it makes no sense to change 
>a Power which does the former into one which does the latter by applying 
>a simple Modifier. 
> 
>> > and XDM would probably need to include some sort of mechanic for making 
>> > them usable against others in the actual Power description 
>>  
>> And Shrinking, and Growth, and .... 
> 
>No, those two are trivially doable via Transform. 
 
Trivially?  1) Transform is never trivial.  2) The cost of such a power 
would be rediculously expensive and hard to manage. 
 
>> Consider the following examples, which cannot be done with any other power. 
>>  
>> a) 10   Regeneration UAO(+1) 0 DCV Concentration(-1/2)  Uses END(-1/2) 
 
>Use Aid, and buy up the limit high enough to be able to handle any 
>wound you're likely to encounter. 
 
This one I agree with.  But I would have no problem with Regen either. 
 
>> b) 50   10PD/10ED Force Field UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) 
> 
>Aid to Armour. 
 
You can Aid a power the target does not have?  So I can buy an Aid with 
variable special effects and at +2 to give myself powers I lack, just in 
case.  You know, a little Power Defense here, a little KB Res there.  It's 
an Aid, why not?  "Oh, no Lois Lane is falling off a building and Superman 
isn't around."  "Don't worry, I have a Flight Aid, Ranged." 
 
>> c) 60   Desolidification UAO(+1) 
> 
>Transform. 
 
>> d) 74   3 levels Shrinking UAO(+1) w/ 4D6 Suppress STR Linked(-1/2) 
> 
>Transform. 
 
Why not just elimiate all of the powers and just use Transform.  :-)  GM: 
"Okay, you have -8 BODY vs the Shrinking made by Shrinker and 2 BODY vs the 
Desolid your teammate is trying to give you.  Meanwhile Agent 2 is almost 
at 2 levels of growth and Agent 3 can almost regenerate." 
 
>If a Power is defined to allow its user to do X, then its point cost is  
>going to be based on the usefulness of doing X. There's no reason to think  
>that the usefulness of making somebody else do X is going to be directly  
>proportional to the usefulness of doing X, so it makes no sense to change 
>a Power which does the former into one which does the latter by applying 
>a simple Modifier. 
 
So your solution is that ALL POWERS which allow its user to do X should 
cost EXACTLY THE SAME amount to effect someone else?  Somehow I think more 
powers will be directly proportional in terms of game balance. 
 
>> Again, Transform is inappropriate for any of the above, and UAO seems to 
>> work fairly well.  Consider that Transform works very badly for any 
>> effect that should be quantifiable, since there is no point distinction 
>> between a Transform that shrinks a target to 1/8 size and one that 
>> shrinks the target to 1/32 size. 
> 
>If we assume that a target shrunk to 1/8 size has been nullified as a 
>combatant, there's no reason why they should cost differently. 
 
Actually, I would not assume that.  If a mentallist is 1/8, 1/32 or even 
1/256 his normal size, he can still be very effective. 
 
> If not, 
>the two should be different levels of Transform. (Yes, Transform suffers 
>from an overly coarse granularity, but that's a separate issue.) 
 
Yes, Transform suffers from overly coarse granularity, that's why it should 
not be used to model powers which have game descriptions. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:08:59 -0500 
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Donald Tsang writes: 
>How can something "block the sun" and yet "not cast a shadow"? 
 
Take your pick from the following :-) 
 
1. Magic.  (Yeah, my player won't buy that one, either.) 
 
2. Bad choice of words on my part.  Picture someone sitting there with 
their head down.  If a normal person snuck buy, they would see the shadow, 
but this character has none.  OTOH, if the sitting person is looking at the 
character when she moves between the sitter and the sun, the sitter will 
not be able to see the sun, even though the light from the sun will 
continue to illuminate the ground.  (Terrible optics, but hey, this is a 
fantasy game.) 
 
3. Explain how invisiblity (to sight) works, and you'll have your answer.  
Not having a shadow is sort of "invisiblity in reverse".  See #2 above.  
(When you figure it out, let me know.) 
 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:22:18 -0500 
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin writes: 
>Send the shadow through a mystic portal to 1930's New York.  Have it 
>recruit a body of agents and fight crime.  No?  Okay, then... 
 
I've been wanting to send the same characters into a science fiction 
setting for some time.  Basically, I'll work up appropriate characters that 
undergo a reality shift when the setting changes, but they are still 
recognizably the same characters _and_ their memories are all from the 
fantasy setting.  So the ranger has a blaster rifle which she seems to 
instinctively use as well as a bow, but she doesn't understand why.  Only 
catch is they have to be able to return.  And if they really like the game, 
they have to be able to switch back and forth (occasionally).   
 
<snip> 
 
>Typically, this kind of story is resolved in one of two ways:  (1) have 
the 
>shadow and its host realize they literally cannot live without each other, 
>and voluntarily -- if reluctantly, on the part of the shadow -- re-merge; 
>or (2) trick the shadow into doing whatever will force the merger.  For 
>example, lure the shadow into the room with the cursed mirror.  The PC is 
>present, and has prepared the room for this situation.  The room is 
>suddenly and completely flooded with light from several sources (those 
>preparations I mentioned), dispelling all shadows in the room, including 
>the ranger's independant shadow. 
 
>Actually, that last scenario works best if the animated shadow isn't the 
>PC's twin at all, but an evil spirit who has possessed the ranger's 
shadow, 
>making it independent in the process.  Faced with the destruction of his 
>shadow form, the spirit would flee back into the mirror.  The mirror is 
>then covered, normal lighting is restored, and the ranger has her shadow 
back. 
 
I'd like them to think something like this.  Which will really frustrate 
the party since they know the mirror is over 300 feet underground, in a 
magically shield cavern, which is only reachable by a teleport device, that 
requires a special one-way key, that they took out with them when they 
barely escaped with their lives.  (Time to cash in that favor from the arch 
mage?) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "K. Ulstein" <kenhar@u.washington.edu> 
Cc: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:23:34  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT), K. Ulstein wrote: 
 
> 
>(scary voice on) 
>I'm an Evil doctor and I've can create batches of poison that can 
>contaminate people but remain inert until my birthday. Once my 
>birthday comes around the virus will awake and everyone I hate 
>will die a sudden death, even Bruce Brick and Captain Force Shield. I 
>just have to infect them first! 
>(scary voice off) 
> 
>Ranged Killing Attack 
>+1/4 Time Delay          (experation date: My birthday) 
>+1/4 Difficult to Dispel  
>+1/2 Penetrating          
>+1   Continuous           
>+1/2 Uncontrolled        (Obvious and common cure? Choose one.) 
 
How about n Continuing Charge of time m? This would allow the Evil 
Doctor to make batches. 
 
Oh, and don't forget Sticky! For a proper epidemic, it's got to be 
contagous (Personal Immunity might help here too) 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "Fuzion Mailing List" <fuzion@dour.org&> 
        "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:28:14  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> Light will pass right through 
>transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
>reflected by polished surfaces.  
 
Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
plate mail in bright light - you get hot. Light off a *mirror* yes, but 
that's about it.  
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:43:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:53:54 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>Here's your chance to practice your evil GM laugh: 
> 
>In our last FH game, one of the characters, a Ranger type, lost her shadow 
>to a mirror curse.   
 
Ah, the old Prince of Persia trick. Nice one. 
 
>This was kind of a spur of the moment GM fix to a last 
>second problem with a different trap.  Furthermore, the ranger is taking 
>the loss stoically, but the ranger's player is royally spooked.  I plan to 
>let this run awhile, since her imagination is making this far worse than it 
>is.  I'm looking for suggestions, both for ways to milk this and also how 
>to resolve it.  Ideally, they should be things that do no lasting harm, but 
>create the illusion that something is terribly wrong.  Comic and Serious 
>are both fine.  I can't really use Horror, but if you think of a good one, 
>throw it out anyway.  Someone else might want to use the bit. 
> 
>I've thought of a few obvious ones:  Mistaken for vampire or other foul 
>beastie. 
 
Bit of a clich‚, ditto shadow becoming 'evil twin', but both are good.  
Try not making any mention of it for a session or two. 
 
> Causing nervous reactions in people (even though they don't know 
>why).  Rustic villager screams, blabs about the condition, causes mob to 
>form. 
 
I don't see anything amiss with that :} 
 
In some cultures, the shadow is a person's soul, so the PC could be 
visited in dreams by the creator/owner of the mirror, threatening her 
soul unless she does things for him. 
 
Resolution? Find and break the mirror or soul-trap. But then all the 
other trapped shadows come out too, perhaps attaching themselves to 
PCs, giving them additional powers (eg a unicorn shadow would allow 
shapechanging into a unicorn but corresponding problems <very evil 
laugh> 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:48:53 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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qts wrote: 
>  
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> > Light will pass right through 
> >transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
> >reflected by polished surfaces. 
 
> Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
> plate mail in bright light - you get hot. Light off a *mirror* yes, but 
> that's about it. 
 
   Actually, no.  If the light is from a source which gives off heat as 
well (like the sun or a floodlamp), then, yes, the poor sap will get 
hot.  If the light is simply excited photons, it will reflect without 
any heat side effects. 
 
 
--  
  -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "cptspith@teleport.com" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 13:03:47  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:48:53 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
>>  
>> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> > Light will pass right through 
>> >transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
>> >reflected by polished surfaces. 
> 
>> Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
>> plate mail in bright light - you get hot. Light off a *mirror* yes, but 
>> that's about it. 
> 
>   Actually, no.  If the light is from a source which gives off heat as 
>well (like the sun or a floodlamp), then, yes, the poor sap will get 
>hot.  If the light is simply excited photons, it will reflect without 
>any heat side effects. 
 
Erm, light is energy like heat (just different electromagnetic 
wavelengths). More to the point, a suit of polished armour will NOT 
reflect a light-based RKA/EB. It's my brother who's the Doctorate 
physicist but I do recall discussions with him and it's to do with the 
surface and the 'shock impact'. 
 
Did you know that if you put enough energy in, you can make steel 
transparent? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:42:17 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 09:18 PM 6/17/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>I can see why this is hard.  Everything I come up with for your second 
>group (Dust, etc.) involves something that shouldn't be free and isn't 
>necessarily inherent.  What is a Steam attack but heat that gets around the 
>normal Fire limitations? 
 
   Steam would probably have the same limitations as Air -- if I could only 
think of what they were!  :-] 
 
>Is the list set and you just want ideas for advantages and limitations?  Or 
>are you interested in adding to the list?  For example, do you want Weather 
>magic separate, or is it just a combination of others, like Air and Water? 
 
   Yes, this is the fixed set of Manifestations.  Weather effects for this 
system will be, as you say, combinations of Air and Water effects (and 
maybe others). 
 
>Don't know if this helps, but here's how we do Light magic:  Everything 
>runs off of an END Battery (or charges or whatever limits the uses) and 
>only recharges rapidly in its own elements--i.e. Dark mages can only 
>recharge rapidly in complete Darkness.  It recharges slowly as long as 
>partially in its element--i.e. Moon and Star magic recharges slowly under 
>the Sun or cloudy night skies. 
> 
>Sun 
>Moon and Star 
>Shadow 
>Dark 
 
   It's not especially helpful in this particular matter, but I do find 
this idea interesting.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:48:59 -0700 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 01:03 PM 6/18/1998, qts wrote: 
>>   Actually, no.  If the light is from a source which gives off heat as 
>>well (like the sun or a floodlamp), then, yes, the poor sap will get 
>>hot.  If the light is simply excited photons, it will reflect without 
>>any heat side effects. 
> 
>Erm, light is energy like heat (just different electromagnetic 
>wavelengths). More to the point, a suit of polished armour will NOT 
>reflect a light-based RKA/EB. It's my brother who's the Doctorate 
>physicist but I do recall discussions with him and it's to do with the 
>surface and the 'shock impact'. 
 
   "Shock impact" from light? 
   And I'm aware that well-polished metal will not fully reflect a laser; 
after all, when you shine a flashlight at it, you can still clearly see the 
metal itself even as it reflects the light to another surface.  Even under 
this system (which is, after all, magic), the metal would have to be 
exceptionally well-polished to reflect back even half the effect of a Light 
attack. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:35:29 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> >Aid to Armour. 
>  
> You can Aid a power the target does not have?  So I can buy an Aid with 
> variable special effects and at +2 to give myself powers I lack, just in 
> case.  You know, a little Power Defense here, a little KB Res there.  It's 
> an Aid, why not?  "Oh, no Lois Lane is falling off a building and Superman 
> isn't around."  "Don't worry, I have a Flight Aid, Ranged." 
 
Sure you can.  That's why the GM should always look at a character's sheet.  
Actually, the description of AID and Adjustment powers is a bit vague in that 
matter.  Having the system be flexible in this matter I think is a good thing. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:05:43 -0700 
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Bob listed the four base magical elements: 
>Air, Earth, Fire, Water 
 
And (perhaps unknowingly) some of the components thereof: 
>Dust = Air + Earth 
>Ice = Water + (anti)Fire 
>Lightning = Fire + Air 
>Steam = Water + Fire 
 
You can combine the elements in many ways: 
Lava = Fire + Earth 
Mud, Quicksand = Earth + Water 
Rain = Water + Air 
 
And then he adds other properties: 
Appearance: 
>Dark (opaque like earth) versus Light (bright like fire) 
 
...of which there's also Invisible (like air) and Translucent (like water). 
 
Texture: 
>Metal (firm like earth) versus Wood (solid, but pliant like water) 
 
...of which there's also Intangible/Spirit (like air) and Dangerous (like 
fire). 
 
 
The ancient alchemists believed that the four base elements comprised every 
other thing. Looking at the above examples, it's easy to see why. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 17:20:57  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:48:59 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 01:03 PM 6/18/1998, qts wrote: 
>>>   Actually, no.  If the light is from a source which gives off heat as 
>>>well (like the sun or a floodlamp), then, yes, the poor sap will get 
>>>hot.  If the light is simply excited photons, it will reflect without 
>>>any heat side effects. 
>> 
>>Erm, light is energy like heat (just different electromagnetic 
>>wavelengths). More to the point, a suit of polished armour will NOT 
>>reflect a light-based RKA/EB. It's my brother who's the Doctorate 
>>physicist but I do recall discussions with him and it's to do with the 
>>surface and the 'shock impact'. 
> 
>   "Shock impact" from light? 
 
Yes - don't forget that it's energy. One way of launching a satellite 
is to fire a very powerful laser at its base. 
 
Think what happens if someone sets of a flash directly at you: your 
optic nerves get overloaded. It's much the same effect, but with much 
more energy. Think of getting fried by the gamma radiation from an 
atomic bomb for a high end comparison. 
 
>   And I'm aware that well-polished metal will not fully reflect a laser; 
>after all, when you shine a flashlight at it, you can still clearly see the 
>metal itself even as it reflects the light to another surface.  Even under 
>this system (which is, after all, magic), the metal would have to be 
>exceptionally well-polished to reflect back even half the effect of a Light 
>attack. 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
> 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:24:04 -0700 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>  
> At 01:03 PM 6/18/1998, qts wrote: 
<snip> 
> >Erm, light is energy like heat (just different electromagnetic 
> >wavelengths). More to the point, a suit of polished armour will NOT 
> >reflect a light-based RKA/EB. It's my brother who's the Doctorate 
> >physicist but I do recall discussions with him and it's to do with the 
> >surface and the 'shock impact'. 
>  
>    "Shock impact" from light? 
 
The "shock impact" from light, unless the light is _incredibly_ intense, is 
caused by heating. The target heats up well past the  vaporization point, 
and thus creates a tiny, very hot explosion. 
 
This effect is being explored for laser weapons. Instead of a single burst 
of light, a laser weapon might flash 1000 times per second, producing a 
string of minute explosions. 
 
Clear through you. 
 
>    And I'm aware that well-polished metal will not fully reflect a laser; 
> after all, when you shine a flashlight at it, you can still clearly see 
the 
> metal itself even as it reflects the light to another surface.  Even 
under 
> this system (which is, after all, magic), the metal would have to be 
> exceptionally well-polished to reflect back even half the effect of a 
Light 
> attack. 
 
Quite correct. Even a mirror might be less than sufficient, though it would 
tend to partially deflect the attack, even as it melted. The quality of 
both the silvering and the glass is vital here; an effective laser defense 
designed to stop truly high-powered laser attacks would require a mirror 
made from lens quality glass, at least. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:30:28 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:05 AM 6/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Bob listed the four base magical elements: 
>>Air, Earth, Fire, Water 
> 
>And (perhaps unknowingly) some of the components thereof: 
>>Dust = Air + Earth 
>>Ice = Water + (anti)Fire 
>>Lightning = Fire + Air 
>>Steam = Water + Fire 
 
   This was done quite knowlingly; and, in fact, this is why I chose these 
eight elements and compounds.  The next set (dark, light, metal, wood) are 
presented as compounds of the compounds, and the fourth (pure magic, 
spirit) are "unified" manifestations. 
   For that reason, these 14 are all I want for these purposes. 
   But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a spell 
based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:21:56 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> You can Aid a power the target does not have?   
 
I'm not actually sure on this - if I were the GM, I'd want the player to 
ask permission first. 
 
> So I can buy an Aid with 
> variable special effects and at +2 to give myself powers I lack, just in 
> case.   
 
Nope.  If you have an Aid to Strength, the 'to strength' is not the 
special effect.  It's the target.  The SFX would be 'chi meditations', 
'energy pills' or whatever the method is that you use to increase your 
strength.  VSFX on a STR Aid would mean you could aid STR using many 
different methods. 
 
Now, if you're talking about the advantage that lets you alter the 'target 
stat' of the Adjustment Power, you /still/ have to choose a set of related 
powers.  And of course that set of related powers needs to be approved by 
the GM .  The +1/4 level just lets you enhance them one at a time, while 
the +2 level allows you to enhance the powers on that list all at once. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:24:43 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
cc: Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, qts wrote: 
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> > Light will pass right through 
> >transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
> >reflected by polished surfaces.  
>  
> Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
> plate mail in bright light - you get hot. 
 
Not as hot as you would get if the plate mail were painted black, 
though... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:47:28 -0700 
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>But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a spell 
>based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
 
I would assign some general guidelines.  
 
For example, each elemental sphere grants more power when the caster is in 
contact with the element, and even more power when the user is surrounded by 
the element (in an underground tunnel, underwater, standing within a 
furnace, falling or flying). So tunneling is easier than running for an 
earth mage. 
 
Each elemental sphere grants more power when creating or modifying the 
element that when destroying it. 
 
You could grant each element a type of spell in which it specializes (fire: 
attack, earth: defense, water: movement, air: sensory). 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:14:47 -0700 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>  
> At 10:05 AM 6/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
<snip> 
>    But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a 
spell 
> based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
 
Well, for Air, I would probably require Reduced Penetration and Increased 
Knockback, by default, on any EB. There would also be limitations on _what_ 
you could buy. Air would not allow Swimming, Tunneling, or Armor, for 
example. I might allow some semi-universal effects, such as scrying, which 
would belong in any of the basic categories, but each form of these would 
be different. In the case of universal effects, the Advantages and 
Limitations do not necessarily have to make sense. 
 
"To scry in a natural crystal is simple, solid, but not very flexible. Many 
crystals only allow scrying to one place, and crystal will only focus on a 
place, never a person, object, or event. Scrying fire is simplest, but that 
simplicity is a trap. To scry fire allows you to switch images easily, but 
fire is a liar and can lead you false; one must retain control to see what 
truly is, and if you lose control, rather than losing the image, fire will 
lie.  Scrying water shows you what is, was, and may be, but its images are 
hard to control, and you cannot determine whether what you see is happening 
now, has already happened, or has not and may never happen. Only the 
greatest mages can scry the Air, but Air can find anyone who breathes." 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:19:01 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 01:47 PM 6/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a spell 
>>based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
> 
>I would assign some general guidelines.  
> 
>For example, each elemental sphere grants more power when the caster is in 
>contact with the element, and even more power when the user is surrounded by 
>the element (in an underground tunnel, underwater, standing within a 
>furnace, falling or flying). So tunneling is easier than running for an 
>earth mage. 
 
   This is something worth at least considering, though it seems to cut out 
those of the unified energies (spirit and pure magic), and would be a bit 
rough on fire-mages as well. 
 
>Each elemental sphere grants more power when creating or modifying the 
>element that when destroying it. 
 
   This is something that I ought to include; it may also have greater 
power when trying to destroy the opposite element. 
 
>You could grant each element a type of spell in which it specializes (fire: 
>attack, earth: defense, water: movement, air: sensory). 
 
   This would actually end up doing the opposite of what I'm trying to do 
with this part of the system.  What I want is to have a list of general 
effects that spells can have (which I do), and a list of Manifestations 
(SFX to us Hero folks) which can give slight modifications to the specifics 
what each spell does. 
   The current discussion of light vs reflective surfaces is along the 
right idea of what I have in mind, though I do already have the variances 
for that Manifestation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 23:22:09  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:24:04 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>>  
>> At 01:03 PM 6/18/1998, qts wrote: 
><snip> 
>> >Erm, light is energy like heat (just different electromagnetic 
>> >wavelengths). More to the point, a suit of polished armour will NOT 
>> >reflect a light-based RKA/EB. It's my brother who's the Doctorate 
>> >physicist but I do recall discussions with him and it's to do with the 
>> >surface and the 'shock impact'. 
>>  
>>    "Shock impact" from light? 
> 
>The "shock impact" from light, unless the light is _incredibly_ intense, is 
>caused by heating. The target heats up well past the  vaporization point, 
>and thus creates a tiny, very hot explosion. 
 
Like a RKA or EB. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Cc: "Fuzion Mailing List" <fuzion@dour.org> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 23:22:38  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:24:43 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
>On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, qts wrote: 
>> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> > Light will pass right through 
>> >transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
>> >reflected by polished surfaces.  
>>  
>> Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
>> plate mail in bright light - you get hot. 
> 
>Not as hot as you would get if the plate mail were painted black, 
>though... 
 
True, but the principle holds. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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To: "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net&> 
        "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 23:36:07  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:14:47 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>>  
>> At 10:05 AM 6/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
><snip> 
>>    But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a 
>spell 
>> based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
> 
>Well, for Air, I would probably require Reduced Penetration and Increased 
>Knockback, by default, on any EB. 
 
Or Penetrating/NND and No Knockback  to simulate air becoming 
poisonous/corrosive/whatever, lack of oxygen etc 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:55:29 EDT 
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> What I want is to have a list of general 
>effects that spells can have (which I do), and a list of Manifestations 
>(SFX to us Hero folks) which can give slight modifications to the 
specifics 
>what each spell does. 
 
Just off the top of my head ... 
 
Earth magic might be slightly better at punching through physical 
defenses, but not as effective against nonphysical defenses.  Air magic, 
then, would be better at bypassing nonphysical defenses and not as good 
at bypassing physical defenses. 
 
Maybe water magic is more effective when cast "down" -- the caster is 
higher than the target area/person -- water flows downhill, after all.  
(If you allow "Indirect", possibly setting the origin point higher than 
the target would work as well, but that would be way too easy to abuse.) 
 
Spirit magic might be so strongly identified with life that it it harder 
to harm someone with it, but easier to heal or create. 
 
Leah 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
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Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:04:51 -0500 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
>At 10:05 AM 6/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>Bob listed the four base magical elements: 
>>>Air, Earth, Fire, Water 
>> 
>>And (perhaps unknowingly) some of the components thereof: 
>>>Dust = Air + Earth 
>>>Ice = Water + (anti)Fire 
>>>Lightning = Fire + Air 
>>>Steam = Water + Fire 
 
>   This was done quite knowlingly; and, in fact, this is why I chose these 
>eight elements and compounds.  The next set (dark, light, metal, wood) are 
>presented as compounds of the compounds, and the fourth (pure magic, 
>spirit) are "unified" manifestations. 
>   For that reason, these 14 are all I want for these purposes. 
>   But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having a spell 
>based on (for example) Air, compared to a basic, generic Energy Blast? 
 
Have you noticed that the easy ones are energy, while the hard ones are 
actual substances.  (I know, I know--I'm over generalizing, but this is 
fantasy magic we are talking about.) 
 
Does it help anyone to call: 
Air - Wind 
Earth - Inertia? 
Water - Waves 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:46:17 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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Here's a gruesome little manifestation for you (sorry if it dupes a previous 
response),  Blood Magic. 
Easily spread, able to use any living thing as a source, can even do some 
nasty tricks that water can't (blood is a very low-grade acid, but it sticks 
to almost anything)  Probably a mode more widely used by necromancers and 
really disgusting people. 
Voodoo is always fun (see Ultimate Super Mage, available from Hero Plus) 
 
<snip> 
>   The list: 
> 
>Air 
>Earth 
>Fire 
>Water 
> 
>Dust 
>Ice 
>Lightning 
>Steam 
> 
>Dark 
>Light 
>Metal 
>Wood 
> 
>Pure Magic 
>Spirit 
> 
>   Thank you all for any help you can give. 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
 
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From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Query 
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A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
Any input? 
 
Palace of Dwarves:  this Palace will self destruct in 42 days, and counting. 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:13:18 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Query 
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Character A buys Package "X" for 15 pts. [(real value 23 pts), -1/2 Limitation]  
Character B buys package "X" also at same cost. 
                                                  30 pts. -vs.-         46 pts. 
         
        Ideally the character is looking to save points.  In this case 16 to 
be exact. 
        Would this be a safe ruling??? 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:16:50 +1000 
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> Well, I think it depends on why she lost her shadow and where it is now.  
A 
> little background I didn't share before.  She lost her shadow when her 
> reflection stepped out of the mirror.  (The players all thought it was 
the 
> dreaded "mirror of opposition" bit again.  Groans all around :-)  Her 
> reflection refused to respond or act in any manner, except follow her 
> around--but not on the ground or wall like a well-behaved shadow would. 
>  
 
But it WAS a mirror of opposition. . nice save. ..  
 
> This is where the GM improvisation started.  The player was so spooked 
that 
> the party couldn't get anything done.  Conveniently, the next room held a 
> fiery undead creature, the remains of a mage and a magical accident, 
which 
> was still "warm".  I had the reflection (and the shadow) "disappear" when 
> it interacted with the wild magic of the accident.  My current working 
> premise is that the reflection has the shadow and that the reflection is 
> now invisible.  But it is still following the character to the best of 
its 
> ability. 
>  
 
firey mage, eh? serves them right for choosing the path of. . body, wasn't 
it?  
;->~ 
 
> So to answer your question:  If the PC walks in front of someone, she 
will 
> block the sun but not cast a shadow--she's just as tangible as she ever 
> was.  When her reflection come tagging along some time later, it will not 
> block the sun, but will cast the shadow.  However, the above is all just 
a 
> working hypothesis thought out quickly after the game.  I'm open to other 
> suggestions. 
>  
 
Well, have you though of having the shadow coming back occasionally, to 
preclude something bad? this could be the reflection doing the poltergeist 
thang- 
for some reason it's proximity might return the shadow temporarily or 
something. People could start saying that the ranger is leaving their body 
to perform evil acts,  
hence their shadow vanishes. . .  
 
 
 
> Steven Mitchell 
> mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Me and My Shadow 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:23:55 +1000 
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2:22 PM 
>  
> Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin writes: 
> >Send the shadow through a mystic portal to 1930's New York.  Have it 
> >recruit a body of agents and fight crime.  No?  Okay, then... 
>  
> I've been wanting to send the same characters into a science fiction 
> setting for some time.  Basically, I'll work up appropriate characters 
that 
> undergo a reality shift when the setting changes, but they are still 
> recognizably the same characters _and_ their memories are all from the 
> fantasy setting.  So the ranger has a blaster rifle which she seems to 
> instinctively use as well as a bow, but she doesn't understand why.  Only 
> catch is they have to be able to return.  And if they really like the 
game, 
> they have to be able to switch back and forth (occasionally).   
>  
 
This sounds like the type of conversions which happened in the NEXUS game 
made by the guys who did the feng shui rpg. I expanded this for a campaign 
i did,  
in which occasionally the pc's would cross a dimensional portal and find 
themselves 
with different abilities, sometimes radically different, but always 
*slightly* explanable. .  
like the time the four-armed saurian building demolisher stepped through 
and turned  
into a great wyrm. . .  
 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:29:35 +1000 
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> Here's a gruesome little manifestation for you (sorry if it dupes a 
previous 
> response),  Blood Magic. 
> Easily spread, able to use any living thing as a source, can even do some 
> nasty tricks that water can't (blood is a very low-grade acid, but it 
sticks 
> to almost anything)  Probably a mode more widely used by necromancers and 
> really disgusting people. 
> Voodoo is always fun (see Ultimate Super Mage, available from Hero Plus) 
>  
 
How about other bodily tissue? muscle, bone, ect. nasty, but fun. . the 
worst i've ever done is a psycokinetic 'spell' in a post-holocaust game 
called 'daincing corpse',  
which ovefrfires muscular skeletal neurons and sends the target into a 
deadly fit. 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:31:45 -0700 
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Query 
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At 01:03 AM 6/19/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
>avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
>skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
>Any input? 
> 
In what way is this a disadvantage???? 
 
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net> 
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To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Query 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:42:08 -0400 
Organization: Tri-City Business Services 
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At 01:03 AM 6/19/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
>avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
>skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
>Any input? 
> 
<<In what way is this a disadvantage????>> 
 
True.  This sounds more like an advantage to me. 
 
 
Lisa  
beren@unforgettable.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:25:24 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 09:55 PM 6/18/1998 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>> What I want is to have a list of general 
>>effects that spells can have (which I do), and a list of Manifestations 
>>(SFX to us Hero folks) which can give slight modifications to the 
>specifics 
>>what each spell does. 
> 
>Just off the top of my head ... 
> 
>Earth magic might be slightly better at punching through physical 
>defenses, but not as effective against nonphysical defenses.  Air magic, 
>then, would be better at bypassing nonphysical defenses and not as good 
>at bypassing physical defenses. 
 
   A good thought, that.  It's not one I'm likely to use, but you're at 
least on the wavelength of what I'm looking for. 
 
>Maybe water magic is more effective when cast "down" -- the caster is 
>higher than the target area/person -- water flows downhill, after all.  
>(If you allow "Indirect", possibly setting the origin point higher than 
>the target would work as well, but that would be way too easy to abuse.) 
 
   And here's an idea that I'm going to use, despite the fact that I had 
managed to come up with something for water (based on a remark about 
"available material" that someone made). 
 
>Spirit magic might be so strongly identified with life that it it harder 
>to harm someone with it, but easier to heal or create. 
 
   While I'm not going to actually use this idea as-is, it did get some 
wheels turning toward what I'm actually going to do with Spirit. 
   In fact, between this, the aforementioned remark about "available 
material," and one of Dave's suggestions, I only have Steam, Metal, and 
Wood to figure out something for (though I'll certainly continue to accept 
input on the others). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:29:42 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>  
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
> skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
 
 
 
 
Just say no. 
 
Besides the fact that it is blatently illegal, do you really want to set 
that precedent? 
 
I can see it now: 
 
12d6 Energy Blast, -1/2 "Shared EB" 
+30 strength -1/2 "Shared Strength" 
 
 
Tell your player this ranks as 'cheesy power play attempt of the week'. 
 
 
Todd 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:51 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Query 
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Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>  
> Character A buys Package "X" for 15 pts. [(real value 23 pts), -1/2 Limitation] 
> Character B buys package "X" also at same cost. 
>                                                   30 pts. -vs.- 46 pts. 
>  
>         Ideally the character is looking to save points.  In this case 16 to 
> be exact. 
>         Would this be a safe ruling??? 
 
 
Way too vague of a question.  What is it you're asking?? 
 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:42:31 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
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> From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
 
>  
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
> skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
>  
It doesn't sound like a valid limitation to me at all.  How does the fact 
that both forms can use the same skills limit the character ?  The player 
might want to reconsider the multiform option and just buy powers with a 
limitation that they can only be used in one form, probably with shapeshift. 
What's the character concept ? 
 
Curt 
 
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
To: fuzion@dour.org 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 9:20:05 CDT 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>    I've been trying to work up a magic system, and hitting a snag.  (Those 
> of you who have my Teran Magic Plug-In for Fuzion may recognize some of 
> this material.) 
 
Sounds interesting... How can we get this? 
 
>    In this system, there are a fixed set of ways that magic can physically 
> manifest, and each manifestation has its own advantages and disadvantages, 
> which tend to balance out in each case.  The manifestations are listed below. 
>    I've only been able to come up with a few.  Fire will cause combustibles 
> to ignite, but is easily stopped by water or other flame retardants. 
> Lighting (which, of course, is electricity) will travel along metals but be 
> stopped altogether by insulrators.  Light will pass right through 
> transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
> reflected by polished surfaces.  Pure Magic has no modifications (it works 
> exactly as the game mechanics say it should). 
>  
> Air 
> Earth 
> Fire 
> Water 
>  
> Dust 
> Ice 
> Lightning 
> Steam 
>  
> Dark 
> Light 
> Metal 
> Wood 
>  
> Pure Magic 
> Spirit 
 
My Imperium Revived campaign recognizes the following: 
 
Elementals: 
	Earth 
	Air 
	Fire 
	Water 
	Darkness 
	Light 
	Animal 
	Plant 
 
Magics: 
	Abjuration 
	Alteration 
	Divination 
	Enchantment 
	Illusion 
	Invocation 
	Necromancy 
	Summoning 
 
Meta: 
	Time (metamagic) 
	Life (metaelemental) 
 
-- 
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= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com = 
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 = 
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 = 
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 = 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:39:15 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Query 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
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---Palace of Dwarves  wrote: 
> 
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and 
wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution 
is to buy 
> skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both 
forms 
> as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
>  
> Palace of Dwarves:  this Palace will self destruct in 42 days, and 
counting. 
 
Unless you've forgotten to mention something, I don't really see any 
way his "limitation" actualy limits his use of the abilities.  If 
anything, it add additional funtionality. 
 
 
== 
 
============================================== 
        John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:57:04 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
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It sounds like he wants GURPS Multiform, where you have a few abilities you can 
share between forms to bolster their strength.  The only problem is that in 
GURPS, you have to divide your points between the number of forms you have. 
 
What you describe is not a limitation on the skills, because it doesn't limit 
the skills.  It might be a limitation on the Multiform, itself, though, because 
the point of that power is to change your character into another.  This might be 
a limitation on the Multiform if the two characters were mostly the same, say, 
about 75% the same, and probably a fairly small one.  If the changes were 
cosmetic, it might be more (I once had a character with Multiform that only 
caused a Psych Lim to change.  That was worth a large limitation, though I later 
replaced it with another method). 
 
You might consider not following the rules, and saying that any abilities 
duplicated between the two forms will not cost more points in Multiform.  If you 
go there, you are treading where Some would Not Go...  But they'd probably 
sooner accept it than accept the limitation on the skill.  Of course, if the 
character is unlikely to be played in another game, not a problem. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
 
Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
 
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
> skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
> 
> Palace of Dwarves:  this Palace will self destruct in 42 days, and counting. 
 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:02:10 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Question of Growth 
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Okay, I know there are some serious math majors on this list, so I ask the 
following: 
 
If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are my 
hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR? 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:16:55 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Palace of Dwarves 
>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants 
to 
avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to 
buy 
skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
Any input?< 
 
This sounds like an advantage to me, because you get 2 copies of a skill 
for the price of 1.  Maybe he could buy them with a +1/2 advantage "shared 
skills"....  He would pay a little more for the skills in one form, but 
wouldn't need to buy them at all in the other form.  This would still be 
cheaper than buying both copies at full price. 
 
Now that I think about it, maybe 5E should say something about this if 4E 
doesn't already.  Just because you can turn from a human to a gelatinous 
blob (for example) doesn't mean that you have to forget everything you know 
as a human.  In other words, you should be able to change physical 
characteristics and keep your own mind....distinct personalities in each 
form should be a variation, not the norm.  I think "smart Hulk" still has 
Bruce Banner's memories and skills, while "dumb Hulk" is a completely 
different personality who thinks of Bruce Banner as a different person.  
Depending on the time period in Hulk's history, he has had two different 
variations of Multiform. 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:24:21 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are my 
hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR?< 
 
Hmmm....  It seems to me that Area Effect: STR should be an inherent 
escalating advantage of buying Growth, just like the extra STR, density, 
Knockback Resistance, and whatever else it gives you.  Of course, this 
might make Growth a more expensive power. 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:27:59 -0700 
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I said: 
> >For example, each elemental sphere grants more power when the caster is 
> in 
> >contact with the element, and even more power when the user is surrounded 
> by 
> >the element (in an underground tunnel, underwater, standing within a 
> >furnace, falling or flying). So tunneling is easier than running for an 
> >earth mage. 
>  
Bob said: 
>This is something worth at least considering, though it seems to cut out 
>those of the unified energies (spirit and pure magic), and would be a bit 
>rough on fire-mages as well. 
 
I was assuming that fire mages would be immune (mostly, at least) to fire 
damage. 
 
Me: 
> >Each elemental sphere grants more power when creating or modifying the 
> >element that when destroying it. 
>  
Bob: 
>This is something that I ought to include; it may also have greater 
>power when trying to destroy the opposite element. 
 
Yes, I meant to mention that. 
 
Me: 
> >You could grant each element a type of spell in which it specializes 
> (fire: 
> >attack, earth: defense, water: movement, air: sensory). 
>  
Bob: 
>This would actually end up doing the opposite of what I'm trying to do 
>with this part of the system. 
 
I didn't mean to imply that earth can only be used to defend, for example, 
it's just that a fire mage would always do more damage than an equal mage of 
another sphere. Perhaps other sphere would have extra endurance on attack 
spells, or just less dice. 
 
Or, going the "opposite element" route, perhaps fire means instant (attack, 
heal, create, destroy) and water means ongoing (adjustments, sensory). Earth 
means constancy (defense, entangles) and air means whimsy (movement, 
morphing, TK). 
 
+0 (Net) Power Modifiers might be: 
Earth: Indirect (always from ground) +1/2, Reduced by Range (target's and 
caster's range from ground) -1/4, Beam or 1/2 DCV (attune to earth) -1/4 
Water: Continuous +1/2, Gestures Throughout (rain dance, pouring, etc.) -1/2 
Fire: Sticky or Damage Shield or AE +1/2, Side Effect (inherently dangerous) 
-1/2 
Air: [ Double KB +3/4 and Reduced Penetration -1/4 ] or Invisible to Sight 
+1/2, Activation 14- (Air is, by nature, fickle) -1/2 
 
And, of course, SFX could add a +0 modifier (or perhaps Variable SFX +1/4 
with a -2 NCC on the advantage) of "powers and effects available depend on 
material available," so that an earth mage could not entangle in mud in a 
desert, or throw a boulder in a swamp, and that a water mage could not make 
rain indoors, or swim in quicksand. 
 
Bob: 
>I only have Steam, Metal, and Wood to figure out something for (though  
>I'll certainly continue to accept input on the others). 
 
Steam: Explosion +1/2, no KB -1/4, Reduced Penetration (it really hurts, but 
won't usually kill) -1/4 
Metal: [ AP +1/2, Gestures (swing sword, throw stars, etc.) -1/4, Beam -1/4] 
or [ Hardened +1/4 and 1/2 DCV -1/4 ] 
Wood: 0 END Persistent (trees stick around) +1, 0 DCV (trees don't dodge 
well) -1/2, Full Phase (trees aren't in a hurry) -1/2 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:55 -0700 
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>-1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
 
I think it's fine. This limits the character in that any future skills 
learned or improved must be bought equally for both forms, since it's the 
same person. Are all his psych lims the same as well? 
 
For more Multiform tricks, read http://www.haymaker.org/haym07.html. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
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On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
> >If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are my 
> hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR?< 
>  
> Hmmm....  It seems to me that Area Effect: STR should be an inherent 
> escalating advantage of buying Growth, just like the extra STR, density, 
> Knockback Resistance, and whatever else it gives you.  Of course, this 
> might make Growth a more expensive power. 
 
Well, gee, if you don't know the answer just say so... ^_^  
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:35:06 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
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Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are 
>my hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR?< 
 
 
Actually, your hands would be much smaller than you think. 
 
Skipping the whole growth formula, and figuring based on the 65 feet 
tall*, I come up with an open hand that is roughly 3.5 feet wide by 6.25 
feet long, and a fist that is roughly 4 feet by 4 feet. 
 
Barely enough to even consider AE:1 hex. 
 
 
Todd 
 
*I based my figures on: I am 6'1, and my open hand measures about 4 
inches by 7 inches.  My fist is roughly 4" x 4", depending on which 
direction you measure (am I smashing down with it or punching with 
it?).   
 
 
 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:42:05 -0700 
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Mike Surbrook asks: 
>If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are 
>my hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR? 
 
You can find all kinds of Growth tricks at 
http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html. According to 
http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html: 
 
-- 
Hands: Large hands give the ability to palm a Volkswagen, or to cover a 
person's entire face. It's a good reason to buy Area Effect: One Hex for 
STR, a suffocation attack, extra OCV with grabs or sweeps, etc.  
Example: The Claw's hand has 30 points of Growth, always on, hand-only -1, 
making his hand ˝ a hex long. He buys +6 rPD Armor, hand only -1; +4 OCV 
with his right hand; and (no pun intended) Hand Attack!  
-- 
 
So, assuming an average hand is 9 inches long, doubling the size gives 1.5 
feet, again gives 3 feet (1/2 a hex), and again gives 6 feet (one hex). So 9 
levels of growth can give a 1 hex AE. Every 3 levels beyond that gives 2x 
AE. This is an approximation as best, since most people are not exactly 8 
hands tall, but for easy math, it's pretty close. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:42:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
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On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
> >If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are 
> >my hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR?< 
>  
> Actually, your hands would be much smaller than you think. 
>  
> Skipping the whole growth formula, and figuring based on the 65 feet 
> tall*, I come up with an open hand that is roughly 3.5 feet wide by 6.25 
> feet long, and a fist that is roughly 4 feet by 4 feet. 
>  
> Barely enough to even consider AE:1 hex. 
 
Yes, but close enough for what I intend.  Thanks. 
  
> *I based my figures on: I am 6'1, and my open hand measures about 4 
> inches by 7 inches.  My fist is roughly 4" x 4", depending on which 
> direction you measure (am I smashing down with it or punching with 
> it?).   
 
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*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:04:42 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 08:27 AM 6/19/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Bob: 
>>I only have Steam, Metal, and Wood to figure out something for (though  
>>I'll certainly continue to accept input on the others). 
> 
>Steam: Explosion +1/2, no KB -1/4, Reduced Penetration (it really hurts, but 
>won't usually kill) -1/4 
>Metal: [ AP +1/2, Gestures (swing sword, throw stars, etc.) -1/4, Beam -1/4] 
>or [ Hardened +1/4 and 1/2 DCV -1/4 ] 
>Wood: 0 END Persistent (trees stick around) +1, 0 DCV (trees don't dodge 
>well) -1/2, Full Phase (trees aren't in a hurry) -1/2 
 
   You're still thinking in terms of discrete, mechanical Advantages and 
Limitations that are big enough to call for Modifiers.  I'm trying to come 
up with some of those small, SFX-based modifiers.  The example on page 53 
of HSR, using Howler's sonic powers, is a good illustration; they don't 
work in vacuum, but add a couple of DCs or become a small explosion when 
used underwater.  Leah's idea for water spells working better when aimed 
downhill than uphill is another idea that's right on target.  Try ideas 
like that. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:07:28 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
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At 11:16 AM 6/19/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>Message text written by Palace of Dwarves 
>>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants 
>to 
>avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to 
>buy 
>skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
>Any input?< 
> 
>This sounds like an advantage to me, because you get 2 copies of a skill 
>for the price of 1.  Maybe he could buy them with a +1/2 advantage "shared 
>skills"....  He would pay a little more for the skills in one form, but 
>wouldn't need to buy them at all in the other form.  This would still be 
>cheaper than buying both copies at full price. 
> 
>Now that I think about it, maybe 5E should say something about this if 4E 
>doesn't already.  Just because you can turn from a human to a gelatinous 
>blob (for example) doesn't mean that you have to forget everything you know 
>as a human.  In other words, you should be able to change physical 
>characteristics and keep your own mind....distinct personalities in each 
>form should be a variation, not the norm.  I think "smart Hulk" still has 
>Bruce Banner's memories and skills, while "dumb Hulk" is a completely 
>different personality who thinks of Bruce Banner as a different person.  
>Depending on the time period in Hulk's history, he has had two different 
>variations of Multiform. 
> 
 
It seems to me that the existing rules cover this pretty nicely. If you 
keep your skills, you just buy them in each form, which is only fair. If 
you don't keep your skills, you just don't buy them. 
 
The only potential problem I see is not in the skills cost, but in the 
Multiform cost. If my street smart detective has a bunch of skills and the 
ability to turn into a street smart detective monkey, why should he pay so 
much more for the monkey form than an unskilled idiot who turns into an 
unskilled idiot monkey?   
 
While the logical place for a break is in the Multiform cost, I don't see 
an easy way to do this. If you allow a cost limitation (or simply don't 
have to pay) for shared skills, things are going to get out of hand with 
levels (and potentially other skills, especially if they're boosted in one 
form or another.)  
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:09:33 -0700 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:35 AM 6/19/1998 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>Actually, your hands would be much smaller than you think. 
> 
>Skipping the whole growth formula, and figuring based on the 65 feet 
>tall*, I come up with an open hand that is roughly 3.5 feet wide by 6.25 
>feet long, and a fist that is roughly 4 feet by 4 feet. 
> 
>Barely enough to even consider AE:1 hex. 
> 
>*I based my figures on: I am 6'1, and my open hand measures about 4 
>inches by 7 inches.  My fist is roughly 4" x 4", depending on which 
>direction you measure (am I smashing down with it or punching with 
>it?). 
 
   My figures are in sync with yours. 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:20:26 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Query 
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At 01:03 AM 6/19/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
>avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
>skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
>Any input? 
 
   I wouldn't allow this.  This looks like a pretty straightforward points 
cheat to me, and there really isn't any limitation involved (despite Dave's 
assessment). 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:28:51 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Query 
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
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Palace of Dwarves writes: 
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to 
> buy skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both 
> forms as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
 
That's a misunderstanding of multiform.  I might allow a limitation 'MUST buy 
certain skills in all forms'. 
To be honest, if he doesn't want to change his skills, he may not want a 
multiform at all -- consider 'only in hero ID' (if one form is significantly 
more powerful) or a multipower (containing all non-shared abilities).  In 
either case, multiform would be a legitimate special effect. 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:36:09 -0700 
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Bob wrote: 
>The example on page 53 of HSR, using Howler's sonic powers, is  
>a good illustration; they don't work in vacuum, but add a couple of  
>DCs or become a small explosion when used underwater.  Leah's  
>idea for water spells working better when aimed downhill than uphill  
>is another idea that's right on target.  Try ideas like that. 
 
Oh, I got ya. 
 
Wood: Less effective against non-organic (lose a d6 or two), normal 
effectiveness against animals, but more effective against plants (add a d6 
or two). 
 
Metal: Less effective defending against heat attacks, but more effective 
against light attacks.  
 
Steam: Less effective in high wind, more effective in enclosed area. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:45:07 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
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> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>  
> Now that I think about it, maybe 5E should say something about this if 4E 
> doesn't already.  Just because you can turn from a human to a gelatinous 
> blob (for example) doesn't mean that you have to forget everything you know 
> as a human.  In other words, you should be able to change physical 
> characteristics and keep your own mind....distinct personalities in each 
> form should be a variation, not the norm.  I think "smart Hulk" still has 
> Bruce Banner's memories and skills, while "dumb Hulk" is a completely 
> different personality who thinks of Bruce Banner as a different person.  
> Depending on the time period in Hulk's history, he has had two different 
> variations of Multiform. 
>  
 
I don't think buying Hulk as Multiform is really appropriate.  He should 
be a in-hero identity only for his enhanced physical abilities.  Particularly 
for 'smart Hulk'.  Maybe 'dumb Hulk' should just have a limitation that his 
intelligence drops when he's in hero identity form.   
 
Generally, I think multiform is pretty screwed up anyway.  It seems to be  
more of a power that the **player** has, rather than a power that the 
**character** has.   i.e.  I have the ability to play multiple different  
characters rather than one character... 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bill Svitavsky" <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 17:29:48  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
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On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:07:28 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
>At 11:16 AM 6/19/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>>Message text written by Palace of Dwarves 
>>>A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants 
>>to 
>>avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to 
>>buy 
>>skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>>as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
>>Any input?< 
>> 
>>This sounds like an advantage to me, because you get 2 copies of a skill 
>>for the price of 1.  Maybe he could buy them with a +1/2 advantage "shared 
>>skills"....  He would pay a little more for the skills in one form, but 
>>wouldn't need to buy them at all in the other form.  This would still be 
>>cheaper than buying both copies at full price. 
>> 
>>Now that I think about it, maybe 5E should say something about this if 4E 
>>doesn't already.  Just because you can turn from a human to a gelatinous 
>>blob (for example) doesn't mean that you have to forget everything you know 
>>as a human.  In other words, you should be able to change physical 
>>characteristics and keep your own mind....distinct personalities in each 
>>form should be a variation, not the norm.  I think "smart Hulk" still has 
>>Bruce Banner's memories and skills, while "dumb Hulk" is a completely 
>>different personality who thinks of Bruce Banner as a different person.  
>>Depending on the time period in Hulk's history, he has had two different 
>>variations of Multiform. 
>> 
> 
>It seems to me that the existing rules cover this pretty nicely. If you 
>keep your skills, you just buy them in each form, which is only fair. If 
>you don't keep your skills, you just don't buy them. 
> 
>The only potential problem I see is not in the skills cost, but in the 
>Multiform cost. If my street smart detective has a bunch of skills and the 
>ability to turn into a street smart detective monkey, why should he pay so 
>much more for the monkey form than an unskilled idiot who turns into an 
>unskilled idiot monkey?   
> 
>While the logical place for a break is in the Multiform cost, I don't see 
>an easy way to do this. If you allow a cost limitation (or simply don't 
>have to pay) for shared skills, things are going to get out of hand with 
>levels (and potentially other skills, especially if they're boosted in one 
>form or another.)  
> 
 
In this case, though, you'd buy Shapechange and have all the monkey 
powers as Limited: Only when in Monkey Form 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:44:19 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Manifestations of Magic 
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At 09:36 AM 6/19/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Bob wrote: 
>>The example on page 53 of HSR, using Howler's sonic powers, is  
>>a good illustration; they don't work in vacuum, but add a couple of  
>>DCs or become a small explosion when used underwater.  Leah's  
>>idea for water spells working better when aimed downhill than uphill  
>>is another idea that's right on target.  Try ideas like that. 
> 
>Oh, I got ya. 
> 
>Wood: Less effective against non-organic (lose a d6 or two), normal 
>effectiveness against animals, but more effective against plants (add a d6 
>or two). 
 
   Actually, I'm prone toward reversing this.... but I do figure it would 
be more effective against Undead (most specifically vampires). 
 
>Metal: Less effective defending against heat attacks, but more effective 
>against light attacks.  
 
   Ah, right; in fact, I already included its respective effects regarding 
light and electricity in their respective listings. 
 
>Steam: Less effective in high wind, more effective in enclosed area. 
 
   [Best Brain voice]  YYYYYES!  :-] 
--- 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:59:31 -0700 
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>Message text written by Michael Surbrook 
>>If I have 10 levels of Growth (making me ~65 feet tall), how big are my 
>hands?  Ie.  How big of an Area of Effect can I buy for my STR?< 
> 
>Hmmm....  It seems to me that Area Effect: STR should be an inherent 
>escalating advantage of buying Growth, just like the extra STR, density, 
>Knockback Resistance, and whatever else it gives you.  Of course, this 
>might make Growth a more expensive power. 
 
 
Some time back I finally gave in and started letting the team brick do area 
effect attacks.  I didn't charge any extra or anything like that, I just let 
him count as a "handy large object" (he wasn't big enough for his hands to 
count, but his body did).  In general, Growth characters have some drawbacks 
that aren't covered in the rules:  Growth doesn't really help defend you, 
but it does draw fire.  Said brick used in the example tended to fall 
unconscious a lot because of this, so giving him a little back didn't seem 
to hurt.  The alternative was for him to just toss cars about, anyway.  I 
don't really think that it is necessary to increase the cost of Growth for 
this effect. 
 
In answer to the first question:  If you are 65 feet tall, you are about 10x 
in each dimension what a human is.  If a hand is about 6" by 4", it would 
then be 5' by 3', so you could get about a hex, using just your hands and 
fists.  If you want to body slam them, it might be bigger, but if you just 
buy "Area:  Any" you should be fine. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:59:55 -0700 
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David Stallard:  I'm sorry if you get two copies of this note, I'm not sure 
this will get through to the Champions list, so I sent it to both. 
 
>This sounds like an advantage to me, because you get 2 copies of a skill 
>for the price of 1.  Maybe he could buy them with a +1/2 advantage "shared 
>skills"....  He would pay a little more for the skills in one form, but 
>wouldn't need to buy them at all in the other form.  This would still be 
>cheaper than buying both copies at full price. 
 
 
The current system of building a whole new character, including any shared 
abilities, seems cleaner to me.  You simply change character sheets when you 
change forms.  Also, what you are suggesting could get a second form that is 
more powerful than the first:  have the first character be an investigator 
with 90 points of shared skills (135 points), buy 40 points of Multiform for 
a 200 point character, and you suddenly have a 290 point character as the 
second form.  Of course, the GM can just say, no, that's beyond my starting 
character cap, but is there a point otherwise?  See my last paragraph. 
 
In general, if you are pretty much the same person, but more powerful, use 
Only In Hero ID.  The smart Hulk, with Bruce's personality, would be this, 
while the dumb Hulk (or the current, mean Hulk) would be a multiform. 
 
One last thing:  at a +1/2, or even a +1/4, level, this is certainly not 
cheaper than buying both copies to the purchasing character.  Your first 
extra form is one fifth the cost of the form.  This means, if it has 15 
points in skills that the two share, it costs the original 3 points for 
those skills.  A +1/2 would be 7 points, a +1/4 would be 3.75 points 
(rounding to 4).  A third form, and thereafter, cost 1/10th the form cost, 
so it gets worse from there.  If more expensive to the alternate form or 
forms, that still works out:  they are supposed to run up into a limit of 
your points minus the Multiform points, anyway. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: "Dave Mattingly" <dmattingly@platsoft.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Query 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:05:11 -0700 
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>>-1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> 
>I think it's fine. This limits the character in that any future skills 
>learned or improved must be bought equally for both forms, since it's the 
>same person. Are all his psych lims the same as well? 
 
 
How's that again?  Oh, I think I see:  one of us is misinterpreting his 
post.  It was my impression that what he wanted to do was put a limitation 
on the SKILLS, not the Multiform limitation.  What you seem to be 
interpreting his post as is that he wants to put a limitation on the 
Multiform power itself, which was also one of my suggestions. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:17:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
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> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants to 
> avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is to buy 
> skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
 
	In general, if the forms are to be sharing a significant portion 
of the skills, powers, talents, disads, whatevers that they have, 
multiform probably isn't the best way to go.  In this case, Shape Shift, 
with powers linked to that shapeshift, may be much more useful. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:21:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
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> Hmmm....  It seems to me that Area Effect: STR should be an inherent 
> escalating advantage of buying Growth, just like the extra STR, density, 
> Knockback Resistance, and whatever else it gives you.  Of course, this 
> might make Growth a more expensive power. 
 
	Ah, that would be a definate no, Jim. 
 
	This assuems a certain SFX or group of SFX for growth.  While a 
common side ability of growth, much like extra running or PRE, it isn't 
always an absolute.  This being Hero, we have the option of mixing and 
matching our powers to meet a certain SFX, unlike poor slobs playing 
certain other systems. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:25:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
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> cheat to me, and there really isn't any limitation involved (despite Dave's 
> assessment). 
 
	Dave's assessment was pretty good, I thought.  He just 
misunderstood the question.  A -1/2 on the multiform, not the skills, for 
"all skills must be purchesed for each form" is actually pretty good. 
Part of the advantage of multiform is getting _different_ abilities in 
each form, and copying a lot of the abilities makes the power basically 
wasted points. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Query 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Palace of Dwarves writes: 
 
> A player in my Champs campaign is looking to cut a few corners and wants 
> to avoid buying skills twice for a multiform character.  His solution is 
> to buy skills in a packaage with a -1/2 limitation "shared skills" for 
> both forms as opposed to buying the same skills twice at full price. 
> Any input? 
 
Crock, plain and simple. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:38:31 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg" 
>       This assuems a certain SFX or group of SFX for growth.  While a 
common side ability of growth, much like extra running or PRE, it isn't 
always an absolute.  This being Hero, we have the option of mixing and 
matching our powers to meet a certain SFX, unlike poor slobs playing 
certain other systems.< 
 
Can you give an example of a character with many levels of Growth who 
wouldn't get Area Affect on attacks with his hands or feet?  The only thing 
I can think of would be "long skinny guy" who would basically look like 
somebody with lots of Stretching. 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:46:03 -0700 
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Tim Gilberg says: 
>Dave's assessment was pretty good, I thought.  He just  
>misunderstood the question.  A -1/2 on the multiform, not the  
>skills, is actually pretty good. 
 
Actually, I didn't misunderstand the question. As much as I like hearing 
everyone agree with me, I think putting a -1/2 limitation on the skills is 
even more appropriate than on the multiform. 
 
A character with ten points of skills shouldn't get to save 15 points on his 
multiform (assuming a 45-point multiform). Likewise, a character with 100 
points of shared skills should get much more points back, since it leaves so 
much less room on the other form. The points saved should be directly 
related to the amount that the character is limited -- a much bigger problem 
for smart Hulk than for ordinary Jaguar. 
 
Actually, when I say the limitation belongs on the skills, that's not 
entirely correct. The limitation does belong on the multiform, but the 
limitation value should be based on the amount of skills. So call it, say, a 
-1/4 per 15 points of shared skills. So the above ten-points of skills would 
get a -1/4 lim on the multiform, for a savings of 9 points. The 100-point 
skill guy would get a -1 3/4 lim on the multiform, for a savings of 25 
points! Which I believe he deserves, since a 45-point multiform gives a 
225-point character, of which 45% is already spoken for. 
 
By corollary, this means that an identical 45-points multiform (as useless 
as that would be) would get a -3 3/4 limitation, for a savings of 35 points! 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:29 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Query 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:28 PM 6/19/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>> cheat to me, and there really isn't any limitation involved (despite Dave's 
>> assessment). 
> 
> Dave's assessment was pretty good, I thought.  He just 
>misunderstood the question.  A -1/2 on the multiform, not the skills, for 
>"all skills must be purchesed for each form" is actually pretty good. 
>Part of the advantage of multiform is getting _different_ abilities in 
>each form, and copying a lot of the abilities makes the power basically 
>wasted points. 
 
   Apparently, I misunderstood Dave's assessment.... 
   I probably would make the Limitation -1/4 -- if I allowed it at all, 
since it does seem a bit of a stretch to put a construction limitation on a 
non-"stock" construct (an example of a "stock" construct being a spell from 
a Spell Book, or weapon from a catalog). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:40:56 -0700 
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>> Hmmm....  It seems to me that Area Effect: STR should be an inherent 
 
 
> Ah, that would be a definate no, Jim. 
> 
> This assuems a certain SFX or group of SFX for growth.  While a 
>common side ability of growth, much like extra running or PRE, it isn't 
>always an absolute.  This being Hero, we have the option of mixing and 
>matching our powers to meet a certain SFX, unlike poor slobs playing 
>certain other systems. 
 
 
On the other hand, such high levels of Growth come with several inherent 
disadvantages not covered well by the rules, and also allow you to pick up 
such a large amount of, well, STUFF that you can easily get Area Effect, 
anyway, even if you're just shovelling many tons of dirt at the target.  And 
that has range and doesn't require that you come in contact with the target. 
If your brick can pick up a VW or body slam the martial artist, there is 
little difference, other than the VW doesn't have to be there.  Most of the 
time that there aren't going to be any weapons of opportunity about for a 
character of such strength, there are going to be other problems, too:  you 
are unlikely to be able to find a VW or body slam your foe floating in the 
depths of space. 
 
However, I would certainly balk at making this an official effect of the 
power.  It is simply something that I think is one of those side benefits, 
like the sonic attack being a bit more effective in water.  It's a big side 
benefit, seen one way, but like I said:  he could just drop something on the 
guy.  Other special effects of large amounts of growth will probably have 
similar side benefits. 
 
One of my favorite uses of growth:  a race that caused space to warp around 
them.  This caused ranged attacks to tend to curve towards them, made nearby 
targets effectively smaller and more fragile(but they were all the same size 
to each other, so it had no effect on them), and so on.  Unorthodox, but 
probably could still pull off an Area Effect type of an attack. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:46:46 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Re: Query] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote: 
> >-1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>  
> I think it's fine. This limits the character in that any future skills 
> learned or improved must be bought equally for both forms, since it's the 
> same person. Are all his psych lims the same as well? 
 
Yipe! I'd better spike this right now. 
 
Create a character using nothing but skills. Give him Multiform, and 
give him this limitation. 
 
He now has more points for skills than he did without Multiform. He 
has two forms _and_ more points to spend, at the same time. 
 
This is not a limitation on the Skills. It could certainly be a 
limitation on Multiform, and that's what I would recommend, but it 
doesn't limit the _skills_ at all. 
 
Note that if carried to the extreme I mentioned above, it isn't 
multiform properly at all, it is a Limited Shapeshift. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:01:08 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
JAJ says: 
>One of my favorite uses of growth:  a race that caused space to warp  
>around them.  This caused ranged attacks to tend to curve towards  
>them, made nearby targets effectively smaller and more fragile(but  
>they were all the same size to each other, so it had no effect on  
>them), and so on. 
 
This sounds like... Invisible Growth! 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.rgo 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:26:55 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: [Re: Query] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:46 PM 6/19/98, Filksinger wrote: 
>owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote: 
>> >-1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
>>  
>> I think it's fine. This limits the character in that any future skills 
>> learned or improved must be bought equally for both forms, since it's the 
>> same person. Are all his psych lims the same as well? 
> 
>Yipe! I'd better spike this right now. 
> 
>Create a character using nothing but skills. Give him Multiform, and 
>give him this limitation. 
> 
>He now has more points for skills than he did without Multiform. He 
>has two forms _and_ more points to spend, at the same time. 
> 
>This is not a limitation on the Skills. It could certainly be a 
>limitation on Multiform, and that's what I would recommend, but it 
>doesn't limit the _skills_ at all. 
> 
>Note that if carried to the extreme I mentioned above, it isn't 
>multiform properly at all, it is a Limited Shapeshift. 
> 
 
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde are probably a good example of this sort of 
character. 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:35:40 -0500 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>While the logical place for a break is in the Multiform cost, I don't see 
>an easy way to do this. If you allow a cost limitation (or simply don't 
>have to pay) for shared skills, things are going to get out of hand with 
>levels (and potentially other skills, especially if they're boosted in one 
>form or another.)  
 
I think a big difficulty with Multiform is that it has to cover too many 
different situations, when there are cases that should be handled by a 
different set of mechanics, or at leat different Adv/Lims. 
 
Case 1: The player essentially has two characters, one of which can occupy 
the character space at a time.  Effectively, one character switches places 
with another and any overlap in Skills and Powers between the two is purely 
coincidental.  Mar-Vell is one example of this:  he's stuck off in 
XDMensional space somewhere until Rick Jones slaps the negabands together 
and trades places with him.  Ultraman is essentially the same type 
character, immobilized in space until Haiata uses the beta capsule.  I 
think Multiform as is works fine for this case. 
 
Case 2: A major physical transformation takes place, along with a 
personality shift.  However, one entity *becomes* the other, they don't 
each have independent spatial existence and thus don't trade places.  If 
the persona split is marked, the two may consider themselves to be separate 
entities and refer to each other that way, but they share memories and are 
aware, even if they prefer not to admit it, that they share a single body, 
the form of that body being determined by whichever persona is in control. 
Examples: Jekyll & Hyde, Thor & Don Blake, Jack Russell & the Werewolf By 
Night.  I  think Multiform still works well enough here, and this is the 
most common case. 
 
Case 3: There's only one persona, no multiple personalities.  That single 
person can assume a variety of physical forms, however, and those forms may 
dictate the Powers and Characteristics of each forms.  The change in form 
should not dictate what Skills are *known* but may limit what Skills can be 
*used* by each form.  For example, the naga folk of the Xanth books can 
assume any of three physical forms:  human, snake or naga (which appears as 
a centaur-like hybrid of the two extreme forms).  No intelligence or memory 
is lost by changing form, but a naga skilled at Sleight of Hand in human 
form cannot practice it in snake form.  The above forms can be bought as 20 
points worth of Shape Shift, but that Power assumes no change in other 
Powers of abilities.  So you'd have to buy a number of Powers and Skills 
for the character with a Limitation of "Only in snake form" or "Not in 
snake form".  It would be tidier to use Multiform for this, and have three 
separate character sheets, but as written, Multiform would require that any 
cross-form Skill be bought three times.  Ridiculous.  Why should I have to 
pay three times as much for Tracking just because I don't lose the ability 
to do so when I change my physical form? 
 
Hmmm.  I think I've just argued myself out of the point I was going to 
make.  It looks like Multiform is okay for what it's intended to do, but it 
would be nice if there were some middle ground between "Sorry, when your 
shape changes you forget everything and must buy Skills again" (Multiform) 
and "Yes, even though you've changed from a 100 kg human into a 100 kg 
rainbow trout, you still don't have LS: Breathe Underwater because none of 
your Powers or other abilities have changed" (Shape Shift).  I should be 
able to *become* a rainbow trout (in all but mind), not just something that 
looks like one. 
 
Damon 
 
 
---------------------- 
All my life I wanted to be someone, I realize now that I should have been  
more specific. 
				-- Lily Tomlin 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:56:46 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> >-1/2 limitation "shared skills" for both forms 
> 
> I think it's fine. This limits the character in that any future skills 
> learned or improved must be bought equally for both forms, since it's the 
> same person. Are all his psych lims the same as well? 
> 
> For more Multiform tricks, read http://www.haymaker.org/haym07.html. 
> 
> Dave Mattingly 
> http://www.haymaker.org 
 
I would agree that if all improvements to the skills in the group and all 
future skill purchased had to be done in both forms then it would be worth a 
1/4 limitation but not a 1/2.  I have done the same myself with a character 
who was dual brained.  Physical changes in one had to be made in the other 
form also, so they recieved a 1/4 limitation.  Menal, Knowledge and 
Psycological characteristics were handeled seperately for each form.  The 
character was a lot of fun to play, since as he gained esperience new 
personalities (with neew powers) would keep showing up. 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: "Dave Mattingly" <dmattingly@platsoft.com&> 
        "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:33:48 -0700 
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>>One of my favorite uses of growth:  a race that caused space to warp 
> 
>This sounds like... Invisible Growth! 
 
 
How so?  This was years ago, we were still using 2nd or 3rd edition.  It was 
perfectly visible, in that everyone could tell that the character had a 
power going, and what effects it had on them (Ow! That Hurt!), as well as 
being able to see the person reaching out towards you.  Someone at the time 
was even able to figure out what power it was.  How is that invisible? 
 
JAJ 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:51:17 -0700 
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>snake form".  It would be tidier to use Multiform for this, and have three 
>separate character sheets, but as written, Multiform would require that any 
>cross-form Skill be bought three times.  Ridiculous.  Why should I have to 
>pay three times as much for Tracking just because I don't lose the ability 
>to do so when I change my physical form? 
 
 
That's just it:  you're not buying it three times.  You are not paying three 
times as much for it.  In game mechanical terms, you are paying the cost for 
all the skills you want to be shared once, then paying a fifth that cost, 
then a tenth that cost.  So, if you are paying for 30 points of shared 
skills, you pay another 9 points for the privilege of the other two using 
them.  If you think that is also too steep, fine, but you are not paying 90 
points for it, you are paying 39:  30 for the skills, 9 to allow the other 
two to use them.  They also have the problem of being 30 points less than 
they otherwise would be, but the alternative is to allow them to be more 
points than they are supposed to be simply because you share skills. 
 
This is hard to explain:  When you have Multiform (or Duplication, for that 
matter) you really only still have one character, in game mechanical terms. 
That character buys the ability to shift forms, and that character is the 
one that counts when figuring point totals.  The fact that the others may 
pay again for the duplicate skills only means that they are fewer points, 
not that the real cost was double or triple or so on.  Saying that the Naga 
is paying three times the cost for the shared skills means that the Naga is 
three times the points of non-multiformed characters, which we know is not 
the case. 
 
JAJ, GP 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Question of Growth 
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:13:22 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Me: 
>>This sounds like... Invisible Growth! 
 
JAJ: 
>It was perfectly visible, in that everyone could tell that the character  
>had a power going, and what effects it had on them (Ow! That Hurt!),  
>as well as being able to see the person reaching out towards you.  
>Someone at the time was even able to figure out what power it was. 
>How is that invisible? 
 
You could do the same power without the above effects, and it would be 
invisible. Or if not invisible, then non-growing Growth (analogous to using 
non-shrinking Shrinking to produce density decrease). 
 
The above power sounds kind of like this power construct from 
http://www.haymaker.org/haym15f.html: 
-- 
Reduced by Range 
Growth or Shrinking with Reduced by Range makes the character's true size 
only obvious from a distance. One size level per range doubling is lost.  
	Example: Dangerous Dave can warp reality in a small area. One of the 
many tricks he can do is shrink the world around him, to appear to grow. As 
characters approach him, they begin to shrink along with the world.  
Dave has 45 points of Growth, Reduced by Range. Characters within 4 hexes of 
him see him as 8x man-sized; from 8 to 4 hexes see him as 4x man-sized; from 
16 to 8 hexes see him as 2x man-sized; and those more than 16 hexes away see 
him as man-sized.  
-- 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:59:50 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:52 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> >In any case, as I pointed out in the remainder of the cited post, 
> >Transform is the wrong power for this effect -- one cannot Transform to a 
> >Corpse, because then the Transformation would be irreversable, and an 
> >irreversable Transformation is prohibited. 
>  
> Sure you can - just specify Resurrection as the reversal. This is one 
> way of modelling turning a living being into an Undead servitor, for 
> instance. 
 
Since there is no power called "Resurrection" in the basic system, this  
rather begs the question, "What is a Resurrection?"  If a Resurrection is  
defined as a Dispel Transform to Corpse, and must beat the active point  
total of the Transform used, then this is the moral equivalent of  
defining "Affects Desolid" as the group of powers that affects a Desolid.  
 
If, on the other hand, a Resurrection is a reasonably cheap and common  
power, then this dodge works, but such is not standard for a supers  
campaign, in my experience, and I thought we were discussing a fairly  
standard supers campaign. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:44:50 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query (Steve Long, something to consider for 5E) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>  
 
> Hmmm.  I think I've just argued myself out of the point I was going to 
> make.  It looks like Multiform is okay for what it's intended to do, but it 
> would be nice if there were some middle ground between "Sorry, when your 
> shape changes you forget everything and must buy Skills again" (Multiform) 
> and "Yes, even though you've changed from a 100 kg human into a 100 kg 
> rainbow trout, you still don't have LS: Breathe Underwater because none of 
> your Powers or other abilities have changed" (Shape Shift).  I should be 
> able to *become* a rainbow trout (in all but mind), not just something that 
> looks like one. 
 
There is a power that is precisely designed to cover this case:  
Shapeshift, possibly linked to Growth and/or Shrinking as needed to cover  
the available forms (so that you are a 2kg rainbow trout, not a 100kg  
RAINBOW TROUT).  As previously discussed in another thread, a VPP is also  
useful to contain the movement and attack powers appropriate to each  
shape: one configuration of the VPP per shape. 
 
60	VPP Pool 
36	Control Cost: 0 Phase(+1) No Skill Roll(+1) [90 active] 
	Powers Change only in Given Circumstance(-1/2) 
	No Choice of how Powers Change(-1/2) 
	Restricted type of Powers Available(-1/2) 
 
The "Given Circumstance" is when shapeshifting.  "No choice of how Powers  
Change" reflects one predetermined configuration per shape.  "Restricted  
type" reflects that the powers are determined by appropriateness to the  
shape, not by game efficiency. 
 
One might allow the shape to have the functional equivalent of a  
Multipower, by making the control more flexible: 
 
60	VPP Pool 
60	Control Cost: 0 Phase(+1) No Skill Roll(+1) [90 active] 
	Restricted type of Powers Available(-1/2) 
 
Here, the powers are any that are appropriate to the shape chosen.  If  
the character wants to grow claws, that would require Shapeshifting in  
addition to a VPP reconfiguration.  It can also be amusing to get rid of  
the "No Skill Roll," and take a Shapeshifting Skill.   
 
60	VPP Pool 
24	Control Cost: 0 Phase(+1) [60 active] 
	Powers Change only in Given Circumstance(-1/2) 
	No Choice of how Powers Change(-1/2) 
	Restricted type of Powers Available(-1/2) 
13	Shapeshifting Skill 21- roll (assume 18 INT) must use all(-1/2) 
 
 
In this case, since the character does not have a choice about how many  
points to reconfigure, I would rule that the character has reconfigured  
10 active points per point the skill roll is made by: rolling a 17 allows  
one to reconfigure 40 active points.  The remaining points remain in  
their former state: if they are not applicable to the new form, they  
simply cannot be used.  Thus: 
 
Rainbow Trout Configuration: 
 
40	3 Levels Shrinking Persistent(+1) Always On(-1/2) 
 0	Life Support: Trade Air for Water breathing;  
 1	Life Support Immune to Disease Subject to Fish Diseases(-1) 
 7	+5" Swimming (7" total) 0 END(+1/2) 
12	Spatial Awareness (Pressure Sense/Touch Group) 
	4xRange Penalty(-1) 
-- 
60 
 
The one point for Immune to Disease is a semi-whimsical recognition that  
many, but not all, campaign-relevant diseases will not affect fish. 
 
I argue that the No Range(-1/2) is pointed for attacks, that are often  
useful at zero range.  For targeting senses, I would use call quadrupling  
the range penalty a serious limitation.  This sense is intended to  
simulate the Lateral Line of most bony fishes. 
 
Now, the Shapeshifter wants to change to a Werewolf: 
 
15	Damage Immunity:50% rPD Damage Red Not vs Silver or Magic(-1) 
18	Toughness:	2PD/10ED Armor 
10	Claws/Fangs: 	1D6+1 HKA Not vs Magic, on Holy Ground, etc.(-1) 
 5	Werewolf Str.	+5 STR (total 20) 
 8	Wolf Speed	+4" Running (10" Total) 
 4	Wolf Endurange	+2 REC 
 
 
Assume that our hero rolls 17: 40 active points, and assume that the  
order of powers is the order listed.  The Shrinking goes away, and the  
Werewolf has Damage Resistance and 1PD/5ED Armor.  Although the Wolf has  
claws, fangs and looks fast, strong and energetic, he does not have an  
HKA, has his normal STR of 15, moves 6" and has normal REC.  He would  
need to roll a 12- to get all Werewolf powers without taking extra time  
to improve the skill roll. 
 
Players faced with this type of villain often fail to figure out what is  
going on and get delightfully confused. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:12:25 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New Topic: Teleportation and Usable Against Others 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>  
>  
> Yes, Transform suffers from overly coarse granularity, that's why it should 
> not be used to model powers which have game descriptions. 
>  
>   Joe 
 
I couldn't have put it better myself. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:48:51 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Teleportation and UAO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > > Yep. Usable Against Others is pretty much inherently a crock. Teleport 
> > 
> > In what way?  Please be specific: UAO does not look like a crock to me. 
>  
> If a Power is defined to allow its user to do X, then its point cost is 
> going to be based on the usefulness of doing X. There's no reason to think 
> that the usefulness of making somebody else do X is going to be directly 
> proportional to the usefulness of doing X, so it makes no sense to change 
> a Power which does the former into one which does the latter by applying 
> a simple Modifier. 
 
Actually, in most cases, I think that a power UAO is pointed pretty  
fairly.  I would say that forcing an enemy brick to fly away is worth  
about the same as an AoE Flight that I might use on my own party to draw  
the projectors and whatnot away from the brick. 
 
Of course, there are some Limitations that are abusive if used with UAO,  
and this should be noted in 5ed: Side Effect, and analogs that impose  
some penalty on the character.  One form of Side Effect is Shrinking,  
Negative Growth(-1/2), which imposes for one level of Shrinking the  
opposite effects of one level of Growth: 
 
	-5 STR 
	-1 BODY 
	-1 STUN 
	1/2 Reach: character moves 1" to cross own hex from standstill. 
 
Note that this is equivalent to 27 active points of Suppress, distributed  
among four powers, which compares well with the 30 active point minimum  
for Side Effect. 
 
9	2D6-1 Suppress STR 3/Die(-0) 
4	1D6-1 Suppress BODY 3/Die(-0) 
2	1 pt  Suppress STUN 
12	1D6-1 Suppress all Movement(+2)  3/die(-0) 1" by SFX(-0) 
-- 
27 
 
Obviously, this would be *more* powerful than standard Shrinking if  
applied to an opponent, so the Suppress should be bought as indicated  
instead. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Teleportation and UAO 
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:35:10 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com> 
> Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >  
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
> >  
> > > > Yep. Usable Against Others is pretty much inherently a crock. 
Teleport 
> > > 
> > > In what way?  Please be specific: UAO does not look like a crock to 
me. 
> >  
> > If a Power is defined to allow its user to do X, then its point cost is 
> > going to be based on the usefulness of doing X. There's no reason to 
think 
> > that the usefulness of making somebody else do X is going to be 
directly 
> > proportional to the usefulness of doing X, so it makes no sense to 
change 
> > a Power which does the former into one which does the latter by 
applying 
> > a simple Modifier. 
>  
> Actually, in most cases, I think that a power UAO is pointed pretty  
> fairly.  I would say that forcing an enemy brick to fly away is worth  
> about the same as an AoE Flight that I might use on my own party to draw  
> the projectors and whatnot away from the brick. 
>  
> Of course, there are some Limitations that are abusive if used with UAO,  
> and this should be noted in 5ed: Side Effect, and analogs that impose  
> some penalty on the character.  One form of Side Effect is Shrinking,  
> Negative Growth(-1/2), which imposes for one level of Shrinking the  
> opposite effects of one level of Growth: 
>  
> 	-5 STR 
> 	-1 BODY 
> 	-1 STUN 
> 	1/2 Reach: character moves 1" to cross own hex from standstill. 
>  
> Note that this is equivalent to 27 active points of Suppress, distributed 
 
> among four powers, which compares well with the 30 active point minimum  
> for Side Effect. 
>  
> 9	2D6-1 Suppress STR 3/Die(-0) 
> 4	1D6-1 Suppress BODY 3/Die(-0) 
> 2	1 pt  Suppress STUN 
> 12	1D6-1 Suppress all Movement(+2)  3/die(-0) 1" by SFX(-0) 
> -- 
> 27 
>  
> Obviously, this would be *more* powerful than standard Shrinking if  
> applied to an opponent, so the Suppress should be bought as indicated  
> instead. 
 
Would the side effect only effect the "controler" of the power? 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:35:43 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
K. Ulstein wrote: 
 
>  
> Ranged Killing Attack 
 
Wrong power.  Once the virus starts, I put up my Force Field and it stops  
hurting me?  Use 1 1/2 D6 Drain BODY instead. 
 
> +1/4 Time Delay          (experation date: My birthday) 
> +1/4 Difficult to Dispel 
> +1/2 Penetrating 
 
I assume that you did this to avoid the Force Field business, but if my  
Force Field is hardened, or I have hardened Armor, I am not affected,  
even if I put on the Armor *after* being infected.  OTOH, Hardened Power  
Defense is not that common. 
 
> +1   Continuous 
> +1/2 Uncontrolled        (Obvious and common cure? Choose one.) 
 
+1 IPE, although you mention it later. 
Total Advantage = +3 1/2: 45 active points per die for a Drain. 
 
>  
> -1/2 No range 
> -4   10x Increased End* 
> -1/4 no knock back (unless the 'poison' is a cortex bomb) 
> -?   Focus 
 
-1/2 IAF. 
 
> -?   Limitation, (yada yada yada) 
 
-1/4 Not vs Immune to Disease. 
-1/2 Variable Limitation: Extra Time/1 turn(-1) or Not vs rPD(-1) 
 
Total Limitation: -6 
 
Net cost: 6 3/7 points per die, rounded. 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 98 11:35:19  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:59:50 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
>>  
>> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:52 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>>  
>> >In any case, as I pointed out in the remainder of the cited post, 
>> >Transform is the wrong power for this effect -- one cannot Transform to a 
>> >Corpse, because then the Transformation would be irreversable, and an 
>> >irreversable Transformation is prohibited. 
>>  
>> Sure you can - just specify Resurrection as the reversal. This is one 
>> way of modelling turning a living being into an Undead servitor, for 
>> instance. 
> 
>Since there is no power called "Resurrection" in the basic system, 
 
Repeat after me: SFX, SFX, SFX. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:05:02 -0700 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:35 PM 6/19/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>K. Ulstein wrote: 
> 
>> Ranged Killing Attack 
> 
>Wrong power.  Once the virus starts, I put up my Force Field and it stops  
>hurting me?  Use 1 1/2 D6 Drain BODY instead. 
> 
>> +1/4 Time Delay          (experation date: My birthday) 
>> +1/4 Difficult to Dispel 
>> +1/2 Penetrating 
> 
>I assume that you did this to avoid the Force Field business, but if my  
>Force Field is hardened, or I have hardened Armor, I am not affected,  
>even if I put on the Armor *after* being infected.  OTOH, Hardened Power  
>Defense is not that common. 
> 
>> +1   Continuous 
>> +1/2 Uncontrolled        (Obvious and common cure? Choose one.) 
> 
>+1 IPE, although you mention it later. 
>Total Advantage = +3 1/2: 45 active points per die for a Drain. 
 
   Why not Sticky? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:36:46 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Drugs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
>  
> On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:59:50 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > 
> >Since there is no power called "Resurrection" in the basic system, 
>  
> Repeat after me: SFX, SFX, SFX. 
 
Sigh!  You just snipped everything but the restrictive clause of one  
compound sentence, and then comment on that as if it were a complete  
thought.  Try re-reading the entire sentence, or better yet, the entire  
paragraph. 
 
Every game effect requires both a special effect and a mechanic.  Both  
are relevant.  In fact, nothing in your post told me anything about  
either one: Resurrection is a game-effect, not an SFX.  There are many  
ways to define it in terms of both. 
 
Does your Resurrection method apply to anyone killed by any means, even  
an RKA, so long as it leaves the corpse reasonably intact?  If so, this  
is the same sort of crock as choosing Affects Desolid as the condition  
that affects a particular Desolidification.  If not, why not?  Do I have  
to know the game mechanic of how someone died in order to know whether to  
risk the dreadful journey to the River of Life?  It looks like you are  
not obeying your own mantra of: SFX, SFX, SFX. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:01:56 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Teleportation and UAO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ron Abitz wrote: 
>  
> ---------- 
> > From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com> 
 
> > Of course, there are some Limitations that are abusive if used with UAO, 
> > and this should be noted in 5ed: Side Effect, and analogs that impose 
> > some penalty on the character.   
 
[Shrinking, Negative Growth(-1/2) example snipped] 
 
> > Obviously, this would be *more* powerful than standard Shrinking if 
> > applied to an opponent, so the Suppress should be bought as indicated 
> > instead. 
>  
> Would the side effect only effect the "controler" of the power? 
>  
>             Ron Abitz 
 
That would normally be logical, but in the case of Shrinking that makes  
one weaker and requires that you use part of your movement to cross your  
own hex, it would really make no sense: the Side Effect is really part  
and parcel of the power itself. 
 
The actual abusive case, now that I remember more clearly, was to create  
the following crock: 
 
6	10 points COM, UBO(+1/2) Ranged(+1/2) 
		Side Effect(-1): 12D6 EB 
 
Since a Persistent Power is on unless turned off by voluntary action,  
this can be used to put any stunned or unconscious character out of the  
fight, without making an attack roll, or even using a half phase!  Just  
in case your were curious, the GM rejected this horror out of hand. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:57:45 -0700 
To: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Teleportation and UAO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:01 AM 6/20/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>The actual abusive case, now that I remember more clearly, was to create  
>the following crock: 
> 
>6 10 points COM, UBO(+1/2) Ranged(+1/2) 
>  Side Effect(-1): 12D6 EB 
> 
>Since a Persistent Power is on unless turned off by voluntary action,  
>this can be used to put any stunned or unconscious character out of the  
>fight, without making an attack roll, or even using a half phase!  Just  
>in case your were curious, the GM rejected this horror out of hand. 
 
   I don't see how this Power would have the stated effect (to put any 
stunned or unconscious character out of the fight without making an attack 
roll or even using a half phase).  In fact, this looks like merely an 
extremely risky power to use to just make someone look more attractive. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:27:28 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Evil Doctor (Was: Drugs) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
 
>  
>    Why not Sticky? 
 
I understood from the original post that this virus was intended to  
eliminate selected enemies, not to cause a general plague.  If I am  
correct, Sticky would not be something that the Doctor wants.  Of  
course, he may have gotten it anyway, and ends up having to help the  
remaining heroes solve the plague he created ... 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Manifestations of Magic 
To: qts@nildram.co.uk 
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org, jeffj@io.com, fuzion@dour.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Somebody (I *think* it was Bob Greenwade) wrote: 
> >> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >>  
> >> > Light will pass right through 
> >> >transparent materials as if they weren't there, but will be neatly 
> >> >reflected by polished surfaces.  
> >>  
> >> Not sure of this. Think about standing in a suit of highly polished 
> >> plate mail in bright light - you get hot. 
 
     Ever stood in a suit of highly polished plate mail, in bright 
light?  No, I haven't, but friends who have tell me it's not nearly as 
bad as you might think, because the reflective qualities keep it from 
absorbing heat from the light.  Sure, once it gets hot, it conducts 
that heat very well by touch, but that's a different quality.  The 
building my office is in has a special (and expensive) silvery roof 
designed to keep down the air conditioning costs in the summer. 
 
     Reaching back to an intro physics course (I have no idea how the 
current theory is), I believe that what we think of as light 
"reflecting" off a surface is actually not the photon bouncing off the 
surface.  The photon hits an atom, is absorbed by the atom and kicks 
the atom (or is that an electron of the atom?) up to a higher energy 
state.  The atom can't stay up at that level by itself, so it drops 
back down - in the process emitting another photon. 
 
     Maybe one of the resident physicists could clarify this.  I'd 
guess that's where the heat comes from, though - from some of the 
atoms that don't drop back down to a lower energy state.  So the more 
reflective the material is, the less likely it is to stay up at that 
higher level and retain the energy. 
 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@rt1.net 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:37:19 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Teleportation and UAO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 11:01 AM 6/20/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
> >The actual abusive case, now that I remember more clearly, was to create 
> >the following crock: 
> > 
> >6 10 points COM, UBO(+1/2) Ranged(+1/2) 
> >  Side Effect(-1): 12D6 EB 
> > 
> >Since a Persistent Power is on unless turned off by voluntary action, 
> >this can be used to put any stunned or unconscious character out of the 
> >fight, without making an attack roll, or even using a half phase!  Just 
> >in case your were curious, the GM rejected this horror out of hand. 
>  
>    I don't see how this Power would have the stated effect (to put any 
> stunned or unconscious character out of the fight without making an attack 
> roll or even using a half phase).  In fact, this looks like merely an 
> extremely risky power to use to just make someone look more attractive. 
 
I would thing that 12D6 of STUN, with no defenses of any kind applying,  
would put most *anyone* out of a fight.  Perhaps your characters are more  
studley. 
 
Or, perhaps you are forgetting that, in a power bought UBO, the recipient  
stands in for the owner of the power in all ways: control, END cost, and  
Side Effects, if any.  This is perfectly appropriate if the power is  
being given to someone who wants it and is willing to take the Side  
Effect, and especially so if the Side Effect is part and parcel of the  
effect desired, as in the case of Negative Growth Shrinking. 
 
The safeguard in place for UBO is that the person can normally elect not  
to use the power, thereby avoiding the side-effect.  This safeguard  
does not apply for a Persistent power if the person is unconscious: such  
powers are ON by default, otherwise Regeneration UBO wouldn't work.  This  
is the origin of the abuse to which I was referring, and which I  
mistakenly introduced in a discussion about UAO, which is another animal  
entirely. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:47:55 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Query 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Apparently, I misunderstood Dave's assessment.... 
>    I probably would make the Limitation -1/4 -- if I allowed it at all, 
> since it does seem a bit of a stretch to put a construction limitation on a 
> non-"stock" construct (an example of a "stock" construct being a spell from 
> a Spell Book, or weapon from a catalog). 
 
IMHO, the proposed Limitation does not, in fact, limit the character at  
all, since it amount to "may only do what fits the character concept."   
Imagine a Human Torch character wanting a -1/4 on his Multipower because  
he can only put flame-SFX powers into it. 
 
As Bob points out, a restriction imposed by the GM as part of a package  
might entitle the character to a Limitation, but that is a different  
matter. 
 
In any event, as I have stated before in this thread, what the original  
poster should use is Shapeshift, combined with either a Multipower or a  
VPP to express the two sets of powers.  I have one player in my campaign  
who is rewriting her character, now a Multiform, as Shapeshift with an  
MP.  By SFX and/or implication of other Limitations, some powers are only  
accessible in one form or the other: Restrainable Flight requires the  
form that has wings; healing by Laying on Hands requires the form that  
has hands. 
 
Since no substantial new capabilities are being added and none lost, I am  
not regarding this as a Radiation Accident, but simply a rewrite to  
better achieve the original intent. 
 
Then again, maybe I should set up a scenario to justify this ... hmmm! 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:41:04 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Put off by what 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 19 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
I found this in my "reply to" folder, forgotten. 
>  
> > Hand the BBB to your brother, sister, mother, etc. Tell them that it is 
> > really fun.  Then look at their faces and you'll see what I mean. 
>  
> My brothers agree. My mother is not going to react any differently to the 
> BBB than she would to any other RPG. 
 
As an experiment, I tried explaining Champions to my mother (who is 80  
years old) during our Memorial Day trip.  She continually made  
cracks about anyone who would waste his or her time on an RPG, and I was  
forced to explain the rules to her orally, because her eyesight is not  
good enough to read the rules; however, it went pretty well. 
 
It took me about 45 minutes to explain all the essential features, and we  
ran through a quick character-design, including Disadvantages,  
Powers, Advantages and Limitations and a simple Multipower.  I didn't  
attempt an Elemental Control or a VPP.  Since I was driving, and her  
eyesight is limited, it was easiest to let her do the computations in her  
head and I kept track of the character sheet in mine.  She has never  
played any RPG, not even once. 
 
IIRC, we did a 150-point character using Superheroic rules; I believe it  
was sort of a Lone Ranger clone, with a follower (Tonto), Fast Draw, an  
RKA (handguns) suitably limited (OAF, charges), etc.  I won't swear that  
we got everything right, and I am sure that we forgot about some things,  
but she had a pretty good grasp of what the system is about.  The only  
major confusion turned out to be that she assumed at first that using a  
power permanently expended the points in that power.  Once that was  
cleared up, she understood pretty well. 
 
Her reaction was that, for those who like this sort of game, she  
suspected that it would be the sort of game that they would like.  As for  
the math and bookkeeping, she dubbed it Third Grade Math, and made  
contemptuous remarks about the educational system that could routinely  
graduate people without the ability to do such trivial operations in  
their heads. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 


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