The Champions / Hero System Mailing List Archive


Week Ending August 01, 1998

From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:18:51 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character creation "problem" 

> At 08:13 PM 7/24/98 -0700, Kim Foster wrote:
> >I just wanted to ask some other champs players and gms their opinion on
> >this. Among Champions player, in particular those with a lot of
experience,
> >I've noticed a tendency to shoot for the maximum right off the bat. If a
> >range is given for stats, damage class and defenses every character will
be
> >at the top end in the every feild regardless of "archtype". I can agrees

> 
> 

I just though of somehting else- ok, so your speedster has the same damage
as your brick. . but is he as good at being strong? If you get deeply into
being a brick or whatever, you should have a bunch of power stunt like
things, like an earthshake,
a thunder clap, and a fastball special. All cost points. To cancel my
earlier suggestion, you might evel let them have EC: (power) effects, where
(power) is speed, strength, or whatever. You could even require them to
come up with at least three, based around the central area of their points.
This is the old hulk vs stronman
idea. Sure hulk is stonger, but (in this example at least) strongman's
player spent points on an ae flash and eb (hand clap), telekinesis (only to
help lift impossibly large stuff your just couldn't with your hands without
it falling apart) and flight useable
vs others (defence is kb resistance, sfx is knocking your foe into the next
state). Ergo, strongman wins.  This will drain points, and meke each
'archetype' more 
distinctive. . .




"Enslave humanity willya?"

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:45:40 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character creation "problem" 

At 08:13 PM 7/24/1998 -0700, Kim Foster wrote:
>I just wanted to ask some other champs players and gms their opinion on
>this. Among Champions player, in particular those with a lot of experience,
>I've noticed a tendency to shoot for the maximum right off the bat. If a
>range is given for stats, damage class and defenses every character will be
>at the top end in the every feild regardless of "archtype". I can agrees to
>an extent that pgioneholing character into types like "brick" and "Blaster"
>can be stifling but I personally find it a little dull when all the
>characters are identical. "Mighty man" is just as fast and agile as the Blur
>who has just much defenses as Mighty Man ann Zapper and all of them do the
>exact same amount of damage. It doesn't seem to get the feel of team
>superhero comics either. What do the rest of you think about it? Has anyone
>come up with any "fixes"?

   One of the questions I expect my players to be able to answer is:  What
is your character's weak point?  What's his motivation for joining the
team?  What's he unable to do that a teammate could do?  (Yes, I know,
that's really three questions; just think of them as one question asked
three different ways.)
   Of course, the converse is also true:  What can this character do that
the others can't, or at least can't do as well?
   If it's been done right, then (extrapolating from your example) Mighty
Man can lift tanks, the Blur can travel super-fast, and Zapper can shoot
lightning bolts and attack at range.  And Minder can probe the minds of
foes, Sun Dragon has a bunch of funky martial arts tricks, Gadgeteer can
pull any need gizmo out of his hat on short notice....
   Another trick (which may be closer to addressing what you're expressing)
is to try something similar to Fuzion's "Rule of X."  (Admittedly, I
haven't actually tried this, but I think it's quite workable.)  Hero System
Almanac I has a table on page 84 which lists suggested power levels for
characters at various levels.  Pick one that looks good as an average, and
tell the players that this is where they must fall, on average.  They may
have one category that's one step higher, but then they'd need to have
another that's one step lower.  They can have a category that's two steps
higher, or two that are one step higher, but then they'd need to have
another that's two steps lower, or two that are one step lower.  And so
forth.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:51:07 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

----------
> From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> To: 
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 7:04 PM
> 
> 
> > but you aren't invincible with 100% dr, i can hit you with cyanide
bullets
> > (body drain) acid in the eyes (transform) even a monoblade (hka nnd- no
vs
> > hardened defences). in short, when you get 100% dr, you're invincible.

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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:09:33 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

> >
> >but you aren't invincible with 100% dr, i can hit you with cyanide
bullets
> >(body drain)
> 
> Linked to an rka, rka must do body. 
> 

who says? it's my construct. . .unless the hero guys have authorised
you to go around telling people what's valid and what's not in a
purely subjective area. . and why must it do body? Gee, maybe
because that defends 100% DR?

>  acid in the eyes (transform)
> 
> Again, more of an RKA perhaps with a linked transformation. 
> 

Not according to the BBB. The example for the villain 'sniper' on page 53. 
And why does it have to do hka damageat all? It might hurt, aww yer right.
I'll link it to a body drain to represent the pain.

>  even a monoblade (hka nnd- no vshardened defences). in short, when you
get
> 100% dr, you're invincible. .
> >even though you're actually not.
> 
> A monoblade as NND? Armor Peircing, Pentrating maybe but NND?  It doesn't
> really matter anyway if your DR is resistant it works against NND damage
as
> well. 
> 

Got me here. . change it to the following: 
Blade of the ancient kings: 
penetrating, hardened, effects desolidified, increased stun multiplier, 
6d6 rka, X2 endurance, side effects, ect ect ect. .. .
someone add up the points value of this. . how many points have been 
made OBSELETE by your 120 point wunderhide?

> But ok, odd (IMO) power contructions aside, if you say you're not
invincible
> with 100% DR, how is it imbalancing or outrageous for a character to
posses? 
> 

No, the point is this- his objection to a 75%/80rd version was that it
wasn't really
invunerable. I suggest the same is true. Again the issue isn't value, it's
PRICE.

> Basically, if yuo want to reach, yuo can find holes in any power
construct.
> You just have to work at it. Building Invulnerabilty as scads of defenses
> has the drawback that someone with enough find weakness can wittle down
> these defenses to just about nothing which doesn't fit certain sfx of
> Invulnerability. (The fire elemental that is immune to flame, for
example,
> there isn't a "weak spot" in its defense against fire)  And the fire
> elementatal suddenly starting getting burned. :) 
> 
> 

Buy desolid instead. works well for a number of reasons even at a 
ful value level- 
for instance who ever heard of a fire elemtal getting swept away 
in lava, or knocked onto the floor by an explosion? In any event, 
i've already said- you want to have 'invincible to fire' and 'worth x
points'
then write it like that: 
"Invincibe to fire, worth 54 points'. 
It's an arbitrary gm jugment. Has nothing to do with DR whatsoever. 
It's a completly different effect, which is independant of a given damage
source, as
it should be.

> It can be negated, avoided and is prohtively expensive for most
campaigns.
> So far the main argument aginst the power you have put fourth is that you
> simply "don't like it" which is perfecrtly valid. But, as far as I can
see
> and have experienced, the use of an 100% power doesn't throw any more of
a
> wrench in the game than unregulated use of any power can. 
>

Yes. . define unregulated. if you mean 'i gave out a 20d6 nnd 0 end eb 
for 30 points' we MIGHT be on the same wavelength.
 
> Speaking as someone who has used 100 DR, I haven't found it imbalancing.
Of
> the three characters that possesed it, two had it vs a single FX and one
had
> 100% Dr vs Energy. Prism. He lasted half a combat  and is currently still
> residing in prison. He certainly wasn't an unstoppable comsic threat. 
> 

Yes, i never said it would imbalance npc's. .. .who have no CP limits.
unless this guy was a player in which case
i'd reasses my feelings towards invincible folk i i were you. .. .
but like i said. . why do you need a power for a villain? and what does it
have to 
do with damage reduction, which is based on the idea that some damage gets
through?
And if a hero wants the same thing, what kind of hero is he? Ok, he wants
to play 
the saint of kilers. Would you let him play godzilla? Even
crappymakersofindependanceday 
godzilla?

> I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> 	But it sure feels good!
> 		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior



"Enslave humanity willya?"

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From mhoram@relia.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:57:28 -0600
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character creation "problem"

Kim Foster wrote:
> 
> I just wanted to ask some other champs players and gms their opinion on
> this. Among Champions player, in particular those with a lot of experience,
> I've noticed a tendency to shoot for the maximum right off the bat. If a
> range is given for stats, damage class and defenses every character will be
> at the top end in the every feild regardless of "archtype". 
. What do the rest of you think about it? Has anyone
> come up with any "fixes"?

In my campaigns I give a begining range (say 10-12 dice attacks) and a
maximum (15 dice), for attacks, defences, dex, speed, skill rolls CVs
(bascially the Campaign develompment form) and I tell players they may
exceed the range in two areas (three if they talk fast and it fits
character conception). I make sure the 'range' is where I want everyone
to hover around.

I then enforce this strictly. If someone comes in with the maximum in
too many area's I hand him a new copy of the guidelines point out that
he is exceeding the range in too many areas and ask him where he wants
to drop his values. If he doesn't drop them, I tell him to get a new
character with a 'lower power level concept'.

I've never really had problems with this method.

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From voxel@theramp.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:24:42 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Central Casting complaints

At 05:42 PM 7/25/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
> Freedom of religion, freedom of ethnicity, freedom of cultural expression.
> ALL equal. Freedom from racial discrimination is equal to them.

You seem to be missing the point here: the underlying tenets of Nazism are
directly counter to the tenets of the freedoms listed above. You're only
free to exercise your rights so long as they don't impinge on the rights of
others. The reason for existence of Nazi philosophy is to impinge on the
rights of others (specifically, the "subraces" who are causing all the woes
of the "Aryans").

I owe everyone the right to live -- but I can take a life guiltlessly in
direct defense of my own; someone trying to deprive me of *my* right to live
has forfeited his. I see no reason why this principle can't be paralleled
lower on the severity chart: I can deprive one of "freedom of cultural
expression" when the whole point of said expression is to deny others their
freedoms.
 
> You don't get to victimise someone because the majority disagrees with
> them.

Not hiring someone isn't "victimising" them, it's fair business. It's my
money, I'll spend it where I want.

> You can disagree with them, you can refuse to congregate with them, 
> but that is a function of your opinion, not any logic inherent 
> within the universal freedoms involved. I just want to make that clear, 
> since it isn't clear in the paragraph above.

I think I've underscored my logic fairly well.

> As for starving people, if you're part of the australian government and
> have that attitude, you darn well better hand over the cash or i'll run
> you out of office myself.

1) "Starving" was meant as a hyperbole. I really doubt my refusing this
man's business is going to cause his death.

2) I've seen the Aussie government on C-SPAN. I'D run me out of office. :]

> Yes, and there comes a point (usually much earlier) when tolerant people
> stop being 'tolerant' in any real meaning of the word.

I'm not advocating lynching the man, I'm not physically vandalizing his
opinions, I'm not slandering him ("Don't hire him -- he steals TV parts!")
... I'm not infringing on ANY of his God-or-Tom-Jefferson given rights.
Nowhere in the social contract does it obligate this man to have my business.

And frankly, people exercise this kind of "discrimination" every day. Don't
know about Australia, but how many people have "hometown proud" movements
encouraging folks to shop in their own town? Isn't this being discriminatory?

> That is the act of people who claim tolerance but are in fact bigoted
> intolerant self-righteous power-trippers. It also gave one nation a
> chance to look hard-done-by and discriminated again, which p*ssed me
> off no end.

"Bigoted" implies an *ignorant* prejudice against a given group. There's
nothing bigoted in Jews being prejudiced against anti-Semetics. It's called
"self-preservation". (And no, I am neither a Jew nor a "PC slave".)

If being called out as a member of One Nation is so damning, maybe those
decent non-racist folks should think about /not supporting/ the party.
Frankly, if the leadership of the party is really "racist morons" ... to
quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Who's the greater fool, the fool or the fool that
follows?"

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to 
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html


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From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:25:39 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Invulnerability

Lockie writes:
>what happens if a 'sound blast' is bought as a telekinesis punch, or a
>drain?
>ALL of it gets through. don't sound much like invunerability to me. 
>I did up an example of an 'ultimate resistance' power, plus there's the 
>'sfx resistance' idea which frankly, still suffers from missing the point
>of damage reduction. Being indestructable deserve a seperate power, 
>one which isn't just based on an existing one. 

I don't really have an argument with "indestructable" as a separate power,
associated with SFX, since that is what I've made all Damage Reduction, in
effect.  Note, however, that I've also got "only 50% immunity" and both
immunities work very much like Damage Reduction.  The end result for me is
just semantics.

Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net

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From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:42:14 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

> From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> > but you aren't invincible with 100% dr, i can hit you with cyanide
bullets
> > (body drain) acid in the eyes (transform) even a monoblade (hka nnd- no
vs
> > hardened defences). in short, when you get 100% dr, you're invincible.

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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:28:18 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Central Casting complaints

----------
> From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
> To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>; champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Central Casting complaints
> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 3:24 PM
> 
> At 05:42 PM 7/25/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
> > Freedom of religion, freedom of ethnicity, freedom of cultural
expression.
> > ALL equal. Freedom from racial discrimination is equal to them.
> 
> You seem to be missing the point here: the underlying tenets of Nazism
are
> directly counter to the tenets of the freedoms listed above. You're only
> free to exercise your rights so long as they don't impinge on the rights
of
> others. The reason for existence of Nazi philosophy is to impinge on the
> rights of others (specifically, the "subraces" who are causing all the
woes
> of the "Aryans").
> 

no, believing in any doctrine does not so impinge. only
when you ACT upon it can it potentially limit another freedom. 

> I owe everyone the right to live -- but I can take a life guiltlessly in
> direct defense of my own; someone trying to deprive me of *my* right to
live
> has forfeited his. I see no reason why this principle can't be paralleled
> lower on the severity chart: I can deprive one of "freedom of cultural
> expression" when the whole point of said expression is to deny others
their
> freedoms.
>  

no you can't. that's just hypocritical. You're saying that you are free to
have a 
belief system which included limits to other people's belief systems,
because there
is limitation inherent in theirs? Isn't there the same limitation inherent
in yours?
well try this on for size: The jewish anti defformation league practices 
the idea of preventing others from speaking(they're argument for doing so 
and to whom, is irrelevant and based on objective value assumptions).
By your logic that means we should gag them for trying to gag others. 
The 'murder' equivalent is actually capital punishment. The argument being,

if you kill someone for being a killer, what is your justification?
'they started it'? And here the analogy breaks down. You can argue that
a repeat-offender (murderer) is too much of a threat to be allowed further
life, but you cannot argue that having a particular belief system is
unacceptabe for the same reasons. It's a BELIEF. by deffinition, what
you practice and believe is for you to decide. if your practice becomes
criminal, 
you can be charged, but not before. 

> > You don't get to victimise someone because the majority disagrees with
> > them.
> 
> Not hiring someone isn't "victimising" them, it's fair business. It's my
> money, I'll spend it where I want.
> 

yes but you justify it in an unclear manner. it's your money, but 
it's my money, too. 

> > You can disagree with them, you can refuse to congregate with them, 
> > but that is a function of your opinion, not any logic inherent 
> > within the universal freedoms involved. I just want to make that clear,

> > since it isn't clear in the paragraph above.
> 
> I think I've underscored my logic fairly well.
> 

Well you underscorred what you said, it's logical value is another matter.

> > As for starving people, if you're part of the australian government and
> > have that attitude, you darn well better hand over the cash or i'll run
> > you out of office myself.
> 
> 1) "Starving" was meant as a hyperbole. I really doubt my refusing this
> man's business is going to cause his death.
> 
> 2) I've seen the Aussie government on C-SPAN. I'D run me out of office.
:]
> 

c-span? oh well i more meant civil service. don't worry, we'll run them out
ourselves at the 
next election. . 

> > Yes, and there comes a point (usually much earlier) when tolerant
people
> > stop being 'tolerant' in any real meaning of the word.
> 
> I'm not advocating lynching the man, I'm not physically vandalizing his
> opinions, I'm not slandering him ("Don't hire him -- he steals TV
parts!")
> ... I'm not infringing on ANY of his God-or-Tom-Jefferson given rights.
> Nowhere in the social contract does it obligate this man to have my
business.
> 
> And frankly, people exercise this kind of "discrimination" every day.
Don't
> know about Australia, but how many people have "hometown proud" movements
> encouraging folks to shop in their own town? Isn't this being
discriminatory?
> 

No, it's a differnt situation, as i noted above, i object to the logic
concept
that one can be treated differently due to his belief system. . NOT for
sake of 
simple opinion, or ones own belief, but some insistance that they 'deserve'
it 
due to a portion of their own beliefs.

> > That is the act of people who claim tolerance but are in fact bigoted
> > intolerant self-righteous power-trippers. It also gave one nation a
> > chance to look hard-done-by and discriminated again, which p*ssed me
> > off no end.
> 
> "Bigoted" implies an *ignorant* prejudice against a given group. There's
> nothing bigoted in Jews being prejudiced against anti-Semetics. It's
called
> "self-preservation". (And no, I am neither a Jew nor a "PC slave".)
> 

No, bigotry is intollerance. and the magazine showed an immense amount of
ignorance
to treat the list like they did. As i mentioned, these were hardly
card-carrying voter-members, 
if it was an early list it was simply compiled from the rolls of signatures
given by people
(often without realising what they were signing) who had simply turned up
to hear
the party head speak. So in other words by exercising their right to 
hear someone speak their mind (or some part of their body) they were
labeled racists. . 
when many would barely even qualify as genuine members of the party. . .and
in any event-
the major 'threat' of nazi or fachist resurgence comes not from backwater
racists and people
who use the word 'black' in the wrong way. They come from people who would
quash 
free speech and step on the rights of others, and from the self-righteous
who believe they 
need not justify themselves to anyone. There has been some rather nasty
scenes in 
some of the anti-one-nation protests, and this arises from the small
authoritarian
population within certain groups which oppose what they see as racism. 
Most are more even-minded, but there are some who have totally missed the
point
of the human rights movement.

> If being called out as a member of One Nation is so damning, maybe those
> decent non-racist folks should think about /not supporting/ the party.
> Frankly, if the leadership of the party is really "racist morons" ... to
> quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Who's the greater fool, the fool or the fool that
> follows?"
> 

Obi-wan's prescence: at least 20. 
((hehe. pretty pathetic effort to inject relevance. . i'll stop now.. ))

Well, not long ago, being called a jew was pretty damn damming as well. 
Sure, the australian intellectual eliete (L) know mzz hanson and her 
puppeteer mr oldfield are a pair of gimps, and every time a one nation
polly states anything statistical or even remotly factual 
they are wildy innacurate, but that doesn't 
give us the right to victimise or stereotype their suporters. . i mean
hell.  .. i'm not the one
living in a country where an (allegedly) womanising head of state still has
the 
support of the women's lobby. . 

> --
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to 
> do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html



"Enslave humanity willya?"

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From Psihawk@pacbell.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:40:12 -0700
From: Albert Deschesne <Psihawk@pacbell.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

>Perhaps I missed something. This "Immunity to nukes" assumes a character who
>has 25 PD and ED, Resistant, before buying the Immunity? That is a big
>difference, to be sure, but would not completely stop a nuke that did 60
>BODY.
>
>Filksinger

Okay, okay, immune to the BODY of a nuke. Add +5 to his base resistant PD &ED and stir well. 8-)
Albert Deschesne
Gamemaster of the Metaverse
http://members.aol.com/Adeschesne

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From lizard@mrlizard.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:28:25 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Central Casting complaints

A few comments on this pointless thread:
a)Refusing to do business with someone is perfectly moral. My money, my
choice. To compel someone to support something they oppose is inherently
wrong.

b)If being known as a member of a specific party is detrimental, perhaps
you ought to think about the ideals of that party. If it were up to me, all
voting would be a matter of public record -- when some idiotic new law is
passed in 'the name of the people', I have a right to know precisely WHICH
people wanted it. What right does society have to tell me, "You must do
this, some totally anonymous group of people, who can never be held
accountable for their choices, said you have to"? But that's "democracy".

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From GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:39:29 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: SA:CoH Special Offer!

  We're pleased to announce that the much-anticipated SAN ANGELO: CITY OF
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  You can pay by check, money order or credit card (Visa/MC). See our web page
for more info (http://members.aol.com/goldrushg), or place a credit card order
by calling 1 (800) 936-4GRG. Pre-orders will be shipped as soon as we return
______________________________________________________________________________
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From GenCon, the week of August 10th.

  This offer is extended to customers on a first come, first served basis, and
only while supplies last. So act now. Order your copy of SAN ANGELO: CITY OF
HEROES today! Call 1 (800) 936-4GRG (4474) to order by credit card, or mail
your check or money order to: Gold Rush Games, PO Box 2531, Elk Grove, CA
95759.

  Or be the first to get your copy at GenCon! Come see us at booth #505, right
next to Hero Games!

  Be a Hero.

  Welcome to SAN ANGELO: CITY OF HEROES!

---------------------------------------------------------------
San Angelo: City of Heroes is a trademark of and copyright 1998 by Gold Rush
Games (http://members.aol.com/goldrushg). All rights reserved. Champions and
the Hero System are registered trademarks of Hero Games. Used under license.

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:07:52 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Invulnerability vs 0 END

Just to put the shoe on the other foot, I thought I'd constrast something
absolute in the rules that I don't care for.  Yes, I know 0 END is an
advantage, but it is an absolute one.

A little background:  The rational for magic in my campaign is that magic
permeates all things.  A spellcaster can, using known rituals and/or
prayers form a link to one or more sources of magic power (put a spell into
a VPP).  Forming such a connection requires no energy, but does require
time.  Using the connection does require energy, as well as other
requirements to safely call forth the energy in a set pattern (all the
other limitations on the spells).

My problem was that normal END rules work very well for this setup, but 0
END isn't quite right.  Some spells may require very little END, but they
do still require some.  Furthermore, there is too big a jump from 1/2 END
to 0 END (in this setup).  For awhile, we simply played normal END rules
with the caveat that 0 END wasn't truly 0 END.  Rather, it was "nigh 0
END," which meant a character could run around for a short period of time
without paying END, but eventually LTE would kick in.  This method required
GM fiat to determine how long a character could maintain a spell and how
much LTE he would lose if he exceeded that time.

What I finally came up with was making all 0 END on spells actually be 1
END per turn.  Persistent powers automatically start at 1 END per turn when
used in spells.  This costs the same +1/2 advantage as normal 0 END.  Each
step up the time chart costs an additional +1/4.  So 1 END per 5 minutes is
+1.  After 1 END/minute, there really isn't much of a combat effect, but
such spells cost 1 LTE every +2 intervals on the chart.  That is, a spell
with 1 END per 5 minutes costs 1 LTE every hour (using the modified time
chart in Almanac I).  BTW, spells costs a fraction of a slot based on their
END usage, so END isn't the only reason to buy the advantage up. 1 END per
turn takes half a slot and it halves each +1/4 from there.

Now for many campaigns, such a construct would just be academic and useless
extra mechanics.  Thus the 0 END for +1/2 absolute mechanic makes sense. 
Yet, obviously someone (me) is finding some use in the more complicated
alternative, or I wouldn't have bothered to construct it--especially given
that I'm rabid about reducing unneeded complexity.

That suggests to me that Hero should provide both methods (given enough
room and other editorial decisions) for any absolute or potentially
absolute power.  For example, max damage reduction might be written up with
two options:

100% DR, costs 120 points, blah, blah. notes on limiting some other way, 
blah, stop sign, blah, notes on making sure that is what is wanted.  A
being built with this power just doesn't take damage from whatever special
effects are included.  Example, fire elemental made of fire swims in the
stuff like we breathe air.

Nigh 100% DR, or 90%, or 95%, costs 120 points, blah, notes on limiting,
blah, stop sign, whether allowed in campaign.  A being built with this
power is effectively invulnerable to certain special effects (particularly
when combined with other defenses).  Example, Flamiere slings fire around
like water, walks through burning buildings, and laughs at flamethrowers. 
However, teleport her to the center of the sun and 1/10 or 1/20 of the
damage that gets through still turns her into toast.

It seems to me the best way to handle absolutes whenever they arise is to
write up both versions, charge the same for both, and ask the GM to make a
call.  Of course, standard Hero would state a suggested call to help the
(novice) GM decide.  Nigh 100% might make the cut (not absolute) along with
0 END (absolute), depending on what is viewed as the most common
alternative.

This makes dimension hopping easier.  You may have 100% DR in one
dimension.  Then travel to another with different physics and find that you
can be hurt, albeit very little.

I can see similar constructs (or notes) for Invisibility fringe, the
meaning of rolling a 3 on skills, and Universal Translator (along with many
other absolute talents).

Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net

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From susano@access.digex.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Albert Deschesne wrote:

> >Perhaps I missed something. This "Immunity to nukes" assumes a character who
> >has 25 PD and ED, Resistant, before buying the Immunity? That is a big
> >difference, to be sure, but would not completely stop a nuke that did 60
> >BODY.
> >
> >Filksinger
> 
> Okay, okay, immune to the BODY of a nuke. Add +5 to his base resistant PD &> ED and stir well. 8-)

Okay, enough of this sillyness.  Here is a 1 MT nuke from Hero Almanac 2

1  Radiation - 6d6 RKA, AVLD - Does Body (Power Defense); plus 3d6 CON &	BODY Drain, AOE: Radius
2 Flash - 8d6+1 Major Transform, AVLD (blindness/Sight Flash Defense):
	normal sight to blind human, AOE: Radius
3 Thermal Blast - 20d6 RKA Energy, AOE: Radius
4 EM Pulse - 6d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Only vs electronics
5 Blast Wave - (static overpressure) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Limited to no
	effect vs soft targets 
	- (winds) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, DBL KB
6 Negative Pressure - 3d6 RKA, AOE: Radius
7 Possible Firestorm 
8 Radiation and fallout

Hmm... I think even with the numbers Albert gane, the target character is
going to be in a world of hurt.  Oh, and this is a one megaton nuke!  A
*LITTLE* one!  For comparison's sake, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was
'only' 20 kilotons.

Note that this is a 7000 Active Point attack as written in HA 1.  Even Mr.
Lucky, with his 240 points of 100% DR Physical and Energy, would have
trouble with this weapon.  There is the AVLD and Drains to contend with,
the fact that there is no NND Does Body to simulate the blast sucking up
all the oxygen in the area (Does Mr. Lucky have Life Support?) - which
there should be IMO - and the radiation after affects.  Oh, and you're
blind too.

Have a nice day.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


______________________________________________________________________________
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From dpawtows@access.digex.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:24:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Invulnerability (was: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

> 
> what happens if a 'sound blast' is bought as a telekinesis punch, or a
> drain?
> ALL of it gets through. don't sound much like invunerability to me. 

  If somebody hits Howeler with a sound-based TK punch, I'd always
have ruled that she gets the wierd defenses vs it.   Although I'd
normally only allow a -1 Limit for that, since sonic SFX are not 
all that rare in most of my own games.  It would work vs NND's, too.
I've never seen a sonic-based drain, so I'd have to ponder that one.

                                      Daniel Pawtowski



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From nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with


>Buy desolid instead. works well for a number of reasons even at a 
>ful value level- 
>for instance who ever heard of a fire elemtal getting swept away 
>in lava, or knocked onto the floor by an explosion? In any event, 
>i've already said- you want to have 'invincible to fire' and 'worth x
>points'
>then write it like that: 
>"Invincibe to fire, worth 54 points'. 
>It's an arbitrary gm jugment. Has nothing to do with DR whatsoever. 
>It's a completly different effect, which is independant of a given damage
>source, as
>it should be.


Because Desolid does have the affect wanted. The attack does not affect the
elemental, not go through it. If the desolid is limited to "fire only" then
said explosion or lava flow will knock it down or away and its had to get
Affects Real World on all its attacks. 

What is the problem with basing an Invulnerabilty off damage reduction to
estimate the cost, rather than just doing some GM handwaving? 


>
>> It can be negated, avoided and is prohtively expensive for most
>campaigns.
>> So far the main argument aginst the power you have put fourth is that you
>> simply "don't like it" which is perfecrtly valid. But, as far as I can
>see
>> and have experienced, the use of an 100% power doesn't throw any more of
>a
>> wrench in the game than unregulated use of any power can. 
>>
>
>Yes. . define unregulated. if you mean 'i gave out a 20d6 nnd 0 end eb 
>for 30 points' we MIGHT be on the same wavelength.

How does doing over 60 points of NNR damage (250 pts)  for 30 pts supposed
to compare with being immune to one catagory of damage for 120? Thats not
even remotely connected to the point at hand. 

By Unregulated, I mean you let your player get whatever they can afford if
they 'have the points' concept and balance are ignored. 

> 
>> Speaking as someone who has used 100 DR, I haven't found it imbalancing.
>Of
>> the three characters that possesed it, two had it vs a single FX and one
>had
>> 100% Dr vs Energy. Prism. He lasted half a combat  and is currently still
>> residing in prison. He certainly wasn't an unstoppable comsic threat. 
>> 
>
>Yes, i never said it would imbalance npc's. .. .who have no CP limits.

in the hands of a power tripping gm somethnig like Invulnerability is
"worse" for NPC fo because they have no cp limited. I can give GOD man 100%
dr vs all catagories, 100 Str and a 200 VPP. 


>unless this guy was a player in which case
>i'd reasses my feelings towards invincible folk i i were you. .. .
>but like i said. . why do you need a power for a villain? and what does it
>have to 
>do with damage reduction, which is based on the idea that some damage gets
>through?
>And if a hero wants the same thing, what kind of hero is he? Ok, he wants
>to play 
>the saint of kilers. Would you let him play godzilla? Even
>crappymakersofindependanceday 
>godzilla?
>

To clarify, all the character mentioned PCs, at least at one time. Prism's
player quit and so I had him go bad. Prism spent 120 points on his
Invulnerabilty to Energy and over all was less werstile, less defended
against other forms of attack and less offensively able than the other PCs. 

Saint of Killers, unless I was running an extremely high powered game, its
not likely to ever come up. 100% DE vsd phys and Energy for 240. Ok, what
are you going to do with your reaming 10 points? Might be leery of s such a
character as it would 1. boring for the player, or most types of player 2
WOuld need a very good rationale


Godzilla, sure why not? Have one PC dragon already.  

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
	But it sure feels good!
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 09:53:03 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>, Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Invulnerability

On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:06:43 +1000, Lockie wrote:

>I have no problem with indestructable creatures, what i ask is, 
>seeing as this is an npc-type creature, and you have the categories laid
>out, 
>why quantify it at all? why not just write 'invunerable to fire and 
>magical fire' in the ddescription notes?

Because adjustment powers affect DR. Take Howler from the HSR. She has
Absorbtion to her EC: DR. At some point it's going to get Absorbed to
120AP at which point she will have 100%DR vs sound. Equally she might
get stuck in an Inertia field or whatever which Drains her DR to 25% or
50%. Thus 100% DR needs to be quantified.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 09:08:19 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Juggy and Invulnerability (Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:22:38 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:

>>> >I see someon'e been reading their Shakespeare.
>>> >qts
>>>
>>> Or Tolkien (though that's often very similar, really)
>>
>> Why not?  They stole from the same sources.
>
>
>Plagarism:  a must for all great writers!  :)

If you steal from only one source, that's plagiarism, but if you steal
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From multiple sources, it's research. :}
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 09:15:09 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>, Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Saint of Killers

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:00:48 -0700, Filksinger wrote:

>Who is this guy, and in what comics?

An incarnation of Death from Preacher. One bad-ass dude.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 09:45:28 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Character creation "problem"

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:13:09 -0700 (PDT), Kim Foster wrote:

>I just wanted to ask some other champs players and gms their opinion on
>this. Among Champions player, in particular those with a lot of experience,
>I've noticed a tendency to shoot for the maximum right off the bat. If a
>range is given for stats, damage class and defenses every character will be
>at the top end in the every feild regardless of "archtype". I can agrees to
>an extent that pgioneholing character into types like "brick" and "Blaster"
>can be stifling but I personally find it a little dull when all the
>characters are identical. "Mighty man" is just as fast and agile as the Blur
>who has just much defenses as Mighty Man ann Zapper and all of them do the
>exact same amount of damage. It doesn't seem to get the feel of team
>superhero comics either. What do the rest of you think about it? Has anyone
>come up with any "fixes"? 

A tangential comment on SPD: I GM FH, and I've found it best to keep
SPD tightly grouped. The mages have SPD 3 and the warriors SPD 3-4. If
I let in a SPD 2 or SPD 5, then that character is correspondingly left
out or has too much spotlight time, but it's great for villains or
monsters - easy way to model a hydra is to give it SPD 12 and to link
(no, not *Link*! :) the SPD to the BODY

Value Char Cost

36  BODY  32
18  DEX    24
...
12  SPD    46    (Limited: Loses 1 SPD per 4 BODY taken -1)

Add in Regeneration for a Lernean Hydra

We have previously discussed on this list a fairly easy way around the
SPD problem: instead of the SPD chart, roll a d6 (if all SPDs are <= 6)
or d12 or 2d6 and if your number or less comes up, then you get to go;
add +1 per missed roll.

This still leaves the problem that characters go in DEX order - how
many times do you see the speedster or master swordsman nimbly dodging
a blow? Clearly the 'slower' opponent has got initiative. Well you can
buy DEX with the -2 Limitation: Only for determining initiative.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From ravenpub@southwind.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:19:43 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:01:45 -0500, Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Depends on what you mean.  If you are talking about how much thrust is generated
>by the engines, then no it can't.  If your talking about how effectively that
>thrust is used to move the aircraft then yes it can.  If the pilots skill is not
>involved then two pilots flying identical aircraft would end every race in a
>virtual tie.  Just like in auto racing or anything else, the more skilled
>driver/pilot will win becasue they can make better use of the tools at hand and
>the oppertunities that arise.  How many rookies have won the Indy 500 compared to
>the number that have sat on the pole postion?  The raw power helps, but without
>the skill to put it to use it might be a kitty car/paper airplane.

Now, let's bring this back around to Hero.  Aren't these factors part of
the special effect of the flight and not inherent functions of the
Power?

The more skilled drag-racer wins because his acceleration/running has
Burnout at higher levels and the higher-skilled racer knows just how far
he can push his engine without blowing it up.  He knows that if he spins
his tires too fast they begin to melt and mess up his traction.  Part of
it is his reflexes and being able to "punch it" at just the right time.
But nothing he does directly increases the car's ability to
accelerate... he simply controls that ability the best that his skill
will allow.  Part of his car's running has Requires Skill Roll and/or
Burnout.  There is far more to racing and drag racing than acceleration.

So you're a hero with a rocket pack strapped on your back.  Your rocket
pack generates a fixed amount of thrust.  Can a more skillful hero make
the rocket go faster?  We'll all admit that a more skillful hero can
slalom through the city more easily, and because he can make sharper
turns at higher speeds because of this skill he might be able to go
faster overall... but can he actually *accelerate* faster on the
straight-away.  I don't think skill levels should allow this or be
involved.  While it's generally a gut-feeling, I feel like acceleration
should be a part of the movement power and not something a person can
buy separate from the movement power because it doesn't have any
application apart from the movement power.  Skill levels in handling a
plane may apply to any plane... pure acceleration isn't something that I
think a character should be able to carry with them from plane to plane.

And I suppose that's about my whole opinion on the "skill levels to
increase acceleration".  While my suggestion for buying acceleration may
turn out to be inappropriate, that's another matter.  I'm not choosing
one over the other here, but choosing not to accept the one.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Old immortals never die, they just... don't.

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From ravenpub@southwind.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:38:01 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On 22 Jul 1998 15:02:32 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>Then using a 3-point firearms skill level with handguns, submachineguns and
>shoulder arms must make no sense to you, either.

Do you attempt to paint me an idiot?  3-point firearms skill levels
applying to handguns, submachineguns and shoulder arms has little to do
with flight skill levels applying to increasing acceleration.  Skill in
accurately pointing several types of firearms makes sense to me.  Skill
in being able to make an airplane accelerate faster does not.  It's like
saying that skill levels in firearms can make the bullets go faster.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Where am I . . . and why am I in this handbasket?

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From susano@access.digex.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:00:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: WWII Villians

A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:

What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names
and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


______________________________________________________________________________
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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:19:42 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

----------
> From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
> To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 7:32 AM
> 
> 
> >Buy desolid instead. works well for a number of reasons even at a 
> >ful value level- 
> >for instance who ever heard of a fire elemtal getting swept away 
> >in lava, or knocked onto the floor by an explosion? In any event, 
> >i've already said- you want to have 'invincible to fire' and 'worth x
> >points'
> >then write it like that: 
> >"Invincibe to fire, worth 54 points'. 
> >It's an arbitrary gm jugment. Has nothing to do with DR whatsoever. 
> >It's a completly different effect, which is independant of a given
damage
> >source, as
> >it should be.
> 
> 
> Because Desolid does have the affect wanted. The attack does not affect
the
> elemental, not go through it. If the desolid is limited to "fire only"
then
> said explosion or lava flow will knock it down or away and its had to get
> Affects Real World on all its attacks. 
> 

you're juging desolid by sfx. show me the rules which prove attacks
made on a desolid lad go right through, is there a chance of hitting anyone
else?
And anyway, link it to an effects phys world missle deflection. . .The
issue is that
'go through it' is not inherent in desolid any more than 'ablates under
heart shock'
is inherent for armour.

> What is the problem with basing an Invulnerabilty off damage reduction to
> estimate the cost, rather than just doing some GM handwaving? 
> 
> 

becasue that's all it is- handwaving. It isn't justified, it isn't logical.

But if you apply a points value as the possibilities arise. you avoid a
lot of messyness with different categories of sfx- just make them cost
differently. . 

> >Yes. . define unregulated. if you mean 'i gave out a 20d6 nnd 0 end eb 
> >for 30 points' we MIGHT be on the same wavelength.
> 
> How does doing over 60 points of NNR damage (250 pts)  for 30 pts
supposed
> to compare with being immune to one catagory of damage for 120? Thats not
> even remotely connected to the point at hand. 
> 

well, you can keep saying that, but the issue stands- 100% dr is a 
points crock.

> By Unregulated, I mean you let your player get whatever they can afford
if
> they 'have the points' concept and balance are ignored. 
> 

This is a non-issue. A good player can justify a jacusi for a demonlord if
they want, 
it just doesn't wash. i suppose you could get more strict and formulaic,
hence 
quashing more of the most creative and interesting character ideas, and
you'll need to if 
something as radical as 100% DR is involved. 

> >
> >Yes, i never said it would imbalance npc's. .. .who have no CP limits.
> 
> in the hands of a power tripping gm somethnig like Invulnerability is
> "worse" for NPC fo because they have no cp limited. I can give GOD man
100%
> dr vs all catagories, 100 Str and a 200 VPP. 
> 

yes. . and you can do the same with normal powers- 'um no, his RPD is
higher than that.'
The difference is wether the PLAYERS can do that. . 

> >unless this guy was a player in which case
> >i'd reasses my feelings towards invincible folk i i were you. .. .
> >but like i said. . why do you need a power for a villain? and what does
it
> >have to 
> >do with damage reduction, which is based on the idea that some damage
gets
> >through?
> >And if a hero wants the same thing, what kind of hero is he? Ok, he
wants
> >to play 
> >the saint of kilers. Would you let him play godzilla? Even
> >crappymakersofindependanceday 
> >godzilla?
> >
> 
> To clarify, all the character mentioned PCs, at least at one time.
Prism's
> player quit and so I had him go bad. Prism spent 120 points on his
> Invulnerabilty to Energy and over all was less werstile, less defended
> against other forms of attack and less offensively able than the other
PCs. 
> 

not an issue! it is already obvious that investing great amounts of points 
leaves you worse off elsewhere. but it doesn't even come close
to making up for the IMMENSE advantage gained by mr 100%dr.

> Saint of Killers, unless I was running an extremely high powered game,
its
> not likely to ever come up. 100% DE vsd phys and Energy for 240. Ok, what
> are you going to do with your reaming 10 points? Might be leery of s such
a
> character as it would 1. boring for the player, or most types of player 2
> WOuld need a very good rationale
> 

try this: 100% p/edr, not vs innocents (-1/4)
hmmm.. now throw in a few more points.  .

> 
> Godzilla, sure why not? Have one PC dragon already.  
> 

ohh i forgot to mention he's not a pc- he's a follower bought for 10
points. 
And yes, he has 100% dr. 
THAT'S the type of points imbalance we're talking about. 


> I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> 	But it sure feels good!
> 		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

"Enslave humanity willya?"

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:07:48 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Invulnerability (was: Powers set Hero has trouble with)


>   If somebody hits Howeler with a sound-based TK punch, I'd always
> have ruled that she gets the wierd defenses vs it.   Although I'd
> normally only allow a -1 Limit for that, since sonic SFX are not 
> all that rare in most of my own games.  It would work vs NND's, too.
> I've never seen a sonic-based drain, so I'd have to ponder that one.
> 
>                                       Daniel Pawtowski
> 

subsonic degredation. Enough to knock a normal 
person into a coma, and loosen all their teth. causes nausia and 
migraine. have a nice day!

"Enslave humanity willya?"

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:05:27 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

----------
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
> To: 
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 5:31 AM
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Albert Deschesne wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Okay, okay, immune to the BODY of a nuke. Add +5 to his base resistant
PD &> > ED and stir well. 8-)
> 
> Okay, enough of this sillyness.  Here is a 1 MT nuke from Hero Almanac 2
> 
> 1  Radiation - 6d6 RKA, AVLD - Does Body (Power Defense); plus 3d6 CON &> 	BODY Drain, AOE: Radius

drain . . drain..  drain.  .mr 100% dr is just as vunerable as mr red. 

> 2 Flash - 8d6+1 Major Transform, AVLD (blindness/Sight Flash Defense):
> 	normal sight to blind human, AOE: Radius
> 3 Thermal Blast - 20d6 RKA Energy, AOE: Radius
> 4 EM Pulse - 6d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Only vs electronics
> 5 Blast Wave - (static overpressure) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Limited to no
> 	effect vs soft targets 
> 	- (winds) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, DBL KB
> 6 Negative Pressure - 3d6 RKA, AOE: Radius
> 7 Possible Firestorm 
> 8 Radiation and fallout
> 
> Hmm... I think even with the numbers Albert gane, the target character is
> going to be in a world of hurt.  Oh, and this is a one megaton nuke!  A
> *LITTLE* one!  For comparison's sake, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was
> 'only' 20 kilotons.
> 
> Note that this is a 7000 Active Point attack as written in HA 1.  Even
Mr.
> Lucky, with his 240 points of 100% DR Physical and Energy, would have
> trouble with this weapon.  There is the AVLD and Drains to contend with,
> the fact that there is no NND Does Body to simulate the blast sucking up
> all the oxygen in the area (Does Mr. Lucky have Life Support?) - which
> there should be IMO - and the radiation after affects.  Oh, and you're
> blind too.
> 

well gee, you could purchase:

A) all the powers you need to defend, or

B) a sfx based gm fiat like ultimate resistance. . 
figuring from a total value, a 1000 point UR would 
still see you in deep fallout (a major effect- 7000 pts of tk?)
but if you splied them seperatly it would work quite well.



> Have a nice day.
> 
>
***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
* 
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net               
* 
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:       
*   
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html            
*
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT           
*
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
*
>
***************************************************************************


"Enslave humanity willya?"

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:24:32 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Invulnerability



----------
> From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
> To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>; Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Invulnerability
> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 7:53 PM
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:06:43 +1000, Lockie wrote:
> 
> >I have no problem with indestructable creatures, what i ask is, 
> >seeing as this is an npc-type creature, and you have the categories laid
> >out, 
> >why quantify it at all? why not just write 'invunerable to fire and 
> >magical fire' in the ddescription notes?
> 
> Because adjustment powers affect DR. Take Howler from the HSR. She has
> Absorbtion to her EC: DR. At some point it's going to get Absorbed to
> 120AP at which point she will have 100%DR vs sound. Equally she might
> get stuck in an Inertia field or whatever which Drains her DR to 25% or
> 50%. Thus 100% DR needs to be quantified.
> qts
> 
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

that's just silly. again you're insisting that dr eventually gives way to 
100% proof vs damage, despite that being the ANTITHISIS of the power? 
Normal pd works from the princible that you get total proof vs limited
damage. 
DR works from the opposite- that you get LMITED proof vs any damage. 
If you want ot pay 120 points, get 7/8 or somehting. . 

"Enslave humanity willya?"

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From lizard@mrlizard.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:01:03 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>,
    Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 12:00 AM 7/26/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
>
>What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names
>and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
>but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.
>
Two I recall from my old WW2 campaign were:

Professor Vhile, a German mad scientist. He rarely engaged in direct
confrontation, but was responsible for the existence of many other
villains, including
Vermin, and his Ver-men:A hideous ratman and his hordes of semi-intelligent
ratmen followers. Probably created by the same process which made U-Man,
and his followers, the In-UMan-oids.

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From nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:17:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 02:19 PM 7/26/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>----------
>> From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
>> To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
>> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
>> Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 7:32 AM
>> 
>> 
>> >Buy desolid instead. works well for a number of reasons even at a 
>> >ful value level- 
>> >for instance who ever heard of a fire elemtal getting swept away 
>> >in lava, or knocked onto the floor by an explosion? In any event, 
>> >i've already said- you want to have 'invincible to fire' and 'worth x
>> >points'
>> >then write it like that: 
>> >"Invincibe to fire, worth 54 points'. 
>> >It's an arbitrary gm jugment. Has nothing to do with DR whatsoever. 
>> >It's a completly different effect, which is independant of a given
>damage
>> >source, as
>> >it should be.
>> 
>> 
>> Because Desolid does have the affect wanted. The attack does not affect
>the
>> elemental, not go through it. If the desolid is limited to "fire only"
>then
>> said explosion or lava flow will knock it down or away and its had to get
>> Affects Real World on all its attacks. 
>> 
>
>you're juging desolid by sfx. show me the rules which prove attacks
>made on a desolid lad go right through, is there a chance of hitting anyone
>else?
>And anyway, link it to an effects phys world missle deflection. . .The
>issue is that
>'go through it' is not inherent in desolid any more than 'ablates under
>heart shock'
>is inherent for armour.
>




>> What is the problem with basing an Invulnerabilty off damage reduction to
>> estimate the cost, rather than just doing some GM handwaving? 
>> 
>> 
>
>becasue that's all it is- handwaving. It isn't justified, it isn't logical.
>
>But if you apply a points value as the possibilities arise. you avoid a
>lot of messyness with different categories of sfx- just make them cost
>differently. . 
>
>> >Yes. . define unregulated. if you mean 'i gave out a 20d6 nnd 0 end eb 
>> >for 30 points' we MIGHT be on the same wavelength.
>> 
>> How does doing over 60 points of NNR damage (250 pts)  for 30 pts
>supposed
>> to compare with being immune to one catagory of damage for 120? Thats not
>> even remotely connected to the point at hand. 
>> 
>
>well, you can keep saying that, but the issue stands- 100% dr is a 
>points crock.
>
>> By Unregulated, I mean you let your player get whatever they can afford
>if
>> they 'have the points' concept and balance are ignored. 
>> 
>
>This is a non-issue. A good player can justify a jacusi for a demonlord if
>they want, 
>it just doesn't wash. i suppose you could get more strict and formulaic,
>hence 
>quashing more of the most creative and interesting character ideas, and
>you'll need to if 
>something as radical as 100% DR is involved. 
>
>> >
>> >Yes, i never said it would imbalance npc's. .. .who have no CP limits.
>> 
>> in the hands of a power tripping gm somethnig like Invulnerability is
>> "worse" for NPC fo because they have no cp limited. I can give GOD man
>100%
>> dr vs all catagories, 100 Str and a 200 VPP. 
>> 
>
>yes. . and you can do the same with normal powers- 'um no, his RPD is
>higher than that.'
>The difference is wether the PLAYERS can do that. . 
>
>> >unless this guy was a player in which case
>> >i'd reasses my feelings towards invincible folk i i were you. .. .
>> >but like i said. . why do you need a power for a villain? and what does
>it
>> >have to 
>> >do with damage reduction, which is based on the idea that some damage
>gets
>> >through?
>> >And if a hero wants the same thing, what kind of hero is he? Ok, he
>wants
>> >to play 
>> >the saint of kilers. Would you let him play godzilla? Even
>> >crappymakersofindependanceday 
>> >godzilla?
>> >
>> 
>> To clarify, all the character mentioned PCs, at least at one time.
>Prism's
>> player quit and so I had him go bad. Prism spent 120 points on his
>> Invulnerabilty to Energy and over all was less werstile, less defended
>> against other forms of attack and less offensively able than the other
>PCs. 
>> 
>
>not an issue! it is already obvious that investing great amounts of points 
>leaves you worse off elsewhere. but it doesn't even come close
>to making up for the IMMENSE advantage gained by mr 100%dr.
>

What immense advantage? None of the characters even came close to being
haveing an IMMENSE advantage.  Prism couldn't be hurt by energy? Big Deal,
there were more than enough physical attacks to take him out, from bricks to
martial artists to normals with pistols. Not in my games, not in any game
I've seen where it came up. 

>> Saint of Killers, unless I was running an extremely high powered game,
>its
>> not likely to ever come up. 100% DE vsd phys and Energy for 240. Ok, what
>> are you going to do with your reaming 10 points? Might be leery of s such
>a
>> character as it would 1. boring for the player, or most types of player 2
>> WOuld need a very good rationale
>> 
>
>try this: 100% p/edr, not vs innocents (-1/4)
>hmmm.. now throw in a few more points.  .


Not vs Innocents is debatable at best...I wouldn't  even call it a
limitation if it was applicable, depedning on how "innocents' was defined.
ok so our Saint of Killer's clone has saved himself 48 points, assuming he
gets the limitation. He is still vulnerarable to mental, still has to spread
those points to his stats, his skills and "some" other power or he just
stands there looking buff or something during most of the action and
roleplaying...waiting for that "innocent" to show up and beat him to a pulp. 
>
>> 
>> Godzilla, sure why not? Have one PC dragon already.  
>> 
>
>ohh i forgot to mention he's not a pc- he's a follower bought for 10
>points. 



>And yes, he has 100% dr. 
>THAT'S the type of points imbalance we're talking about. 

A 10 point Follower... 50 points. so... he must have disadvantages and
limitation all over the place to make get that 120 point power (one catagory
of DR) easy enough to handle. Much better to buy the 50 point follower with
lots of aids with only to PC (-1) 

Actually I don't know why I am bothering. I think this "debate" has reached
that point where no one is going to change anyone's minds... 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
	But it sure feels good!
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior


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From nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Invulnerability (was: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

At 02:07 PM 7/26/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>
>>   If somebody hits Howeler with a sound-based TK punch, I'd always
>> have ruled that she gets the wierd defenses vs it.   Although I'd
>> normally only allow a -1 Limit for that, since sonic SFX are not 
>> all that rare in most of my own games.  It would work vs NND's, too.
>> I've never seen a sonic-based drain, so I'd have to ponder that one.
>> 
>>                                       Daniel Pawtowski
>> 
>
>subsonic degredation. Enough to knock a normal person into a coma, and
loosen all their teth. causes nausia and migraine. have a nice day!
>


Sounds like and NND energy blast...buts thats just my opinion. 

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
	But it sure feels good!
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:16:40 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Juggy and Invulnerability (Re: Powers set Hero has trouble  with)

At 09:08 AM 7/25/98, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:22:38 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:
>
>>>> >I see someon'e been reading their Shakespeare.
>>>> >qts
>>>>
>>>> Or Tolkien (though that's often very similar, really)
>>>
>>> Why not?  They stole from the same sources.
>>
>>
>>Plagarism:  a must for all great writers!  :)
>
>If you steal from only one source, that's plagiarism, but if you steal
>from multiple sources, it's research. :}
>qts
>
>Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
>
>
"Plagarize, plagarize, plagarize! But remember, please, to always call it
'Research."  Tom Lehrer, The Great Lobachevsky, c.1957

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From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:33:35 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Weak characters

We've had a lot of talk about power gaming and various related bits, but
has anyone beside me had the prolem of the opposite?  That is, through
desire for an oddball character, ignorance of the what works, or just plain
cussedness, someone designs a character that cannot hack it.

Cases in point:  We've had a pacifist (extreme) character in a Hero
campaign based in the Shadowmaster world (and if you've checked that out,
you know it's no barrel of monkeys).

We've had a thief (Raul) who couldn't last 3 phases in a fight, but
insisted on trying.  Raul to Warrior/Mage and Gladiator, while observing
gems protected by skeletal warriors with long swords and chainmail, "Hey,
there's only 16 of them.  You guys take them while I get the gems."

Yeah, I should have killed them and the next characters would have been
much smarter.  But this was in the early days when I didn't have the heart.
 Not to mention it was me that screwed up by not catching the problem
during design.  Note that I don't see anything wrong with those character
conceptions in general.  They were just clearly inappropriately weak for
the campaigns in question.

Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:52:43 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters

At 12:33 AM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>We've had a lot of talk about power gaming and various related bits, but
>has anyone beside me had the prolem of the opposite?  That is, through
>desire for an oddball character, ignorance of the what works, or just plain
>cussedness, someone designs a character that cannot hack it.
>
<snip>
My first Hero character was a 250 point Champions superhero.  He was a
major wimp.  First, I spent points on things that would turn out to be
irrelevant in the campaign, like EGO. ("Trust me, you don't have to worry
about mind control")  Then I bought a bunch of powers that just weren't
that super.  I know he had running, and superleap, and martial arts.  He
might have had 22 STR, and probably had high DEX and Spd.  He lasted 3
sessions, with the GM doing a complete rewrite in between, and then I just
submited a new character.

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From filkhero@usa.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:30:48 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Juggy and Invulnerability (Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

From: qts
>
>
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:24:07 -0700 (PDT), Kim
> Foster wrote:
>
> >Maybe Shatterstar's swords were made by woman? :D
>
> I see someon'e been reading their Shakespeare.

I always liked Act 5, Scene 8, where Macbeth informed his
enemy, Macduff, that he could not be killed by "one of woman
born", only to be told that Macduff was delivered by
C-section.:)

Filksinger


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From ghoyle1@airmail.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:59:29 -0500
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champs-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

Golden Age Champions is a must-have sourcebook for you. Get it. Now.

Nazis make the best villains, of course. Hardly a WWII campaign would be 
complete without a Blitzkrieg or an Ubermensch.  Get a German dictionary 
and make up some names; it's not hard, and they sound fearsome. Use the 
German words for Iron, Black, Red, Blood, Eagle, Falcon, etc, images of 
war, blood, ferocity.

The Japanese are good villains, too, but I'd try to avoid stereotyping them. 
Kamikaze and Typhoon are good names to build on.  Italians and other Axis 
powers are good to bring in.

Mad doctors abound, for this is the tail end of the Pulp era.  Other ideas: 
disembodied brains, robots built like a refrigerator, magicians, apes with 
human brains, crazed musicians with seccret weapons built into their 
instruments, etc.  Draw from mythology: no reason that Thor can't be working 
for the Nazis.  The Germans were heavy into the occult, as well.

What about an evil Tarzan, stalking the circuses to free the animals of the jungle?

I could go on and on for hours. Get GAC, though; it's an invaluable thumbnail 
sketch of the period that will spur you onward.

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From filkhero@usa.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:30:50 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: "Vancian" Magic

From: qts
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:12:24 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> >   Actually, I did use that principle when I was
> playing A*&*.  The group
> >was on its way from the village where they lived
> to a nearby temple, and
> >were about to be met on the road by a small army
> of orcs.  Since the party
> >was only (at best) fourth level and had only
> five people in it, the one
> >character who did have a wish coming wished that
> the entire party was
> >standing in front of the temple.  I had to write
> down and closely examine
> >the exact wording of the wish before I
> determined that I couldn't teleport
> >the temple to them, but had to do it the other
> way around.
>
> With respect, if you act like that, you're
> suffering from the 'killer
> DM' syndrome. A Wish should only be twisted if
> unreasonable or if
> granted by a malevolent entity.

Not necessarily. In many genres it is _traditional_ for
wishes to be twisted. If the players expect this, it is part
of the world.

There are also neutral beings for whom a wish is a contest.
Larry Niven wrote a short story about a Djinn who got quite
upset when he realized that he was facing two people who
knew that the whole point of "three wishes" was a game:
Grant three wishes that leave the recipient in exactly the
same state as when he started, or if you can't do that,
leave him no better off.

Last but not least, there is the energy limitation. In my
campaigns, wishes are often completely non-thinking magical
constructs, which will always do whatever takes the least
energy and fulfills the exact wording of the wish.

Filksinger


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From bastet@iquest.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 05:12:35 -0400
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 12:00 AM 7/26/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
>
>What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names
>and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
>but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.

Asahi [Rising Sun] -- The Japanese equivilent of Capt. America, only
trained in the samurai tradition.  Uses karate and kenjustu.  Depending on
the power level, he could have a special sword that lets him do stunts like
deflect bullets.  He could be the classic/stereotypical thug, but I would
prefer to use him as a true follower of Bushido, so he could be more of the
'Honorable Enemy'.

Kamikaze [Divine Wind] -- Weather Control or Wind powers.  Should confuse
people that think Kamikaze has to do with suicide.;)

Tsunami [Tidal Wave] -- Water powers are obvious, but you could also use
some sort of shockwave AE power that knocks over people and things in a
wide area.

Gurentai [Gangsters] -- The Yakuza supported the war effort, so maybe they
send a group over to America to stir up trouble.  Gurentai could be the
usual tattoed men with swords and other martial arts weapons, and it's
always good to throw in a sumo wrestler to be the big strong guy.  This can
be a generic term, but it could also be the name used in the US by a
specific group of Yakuza.

Kuroi Kiri [Black Mist] -- Ninja Clan that uses black smoke bombs as a
trademark.  Also allows you do do a murder mystery where when asked what
killed him, the victim can say 'Black....Mist' with his dying words.

Tokyo Rose -- Female martial artist or even mentalist.  Probably working
independantly since the Japanese military would not be very supportive of a
woman fighting for them.

The Noh -- Master of disguise and masks.  I almost put Kabuki, since that
is more recognizable and also relates to acting and drama, but Noh theatre
uses masks, which fits with the concept better, despite the name being
confusing.  Unless you want to play up the funny side of it.  

"Tell us your name!"

"Noh!"  

"This is your last chance, tell us who you are!"

"Noh!"

"Damn, this guy just won't cooperate."




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From easleyap@mobis.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:10:05 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers

Bob Greenwade:

>   Running with a Turn Mode is a -1/4 Limitation, so "No Turn Mode" on
>other forms of movement that normally would have a Turn Mode is a +1/4
>Advantage.  (This will be in TUSV, BTW.)


This is extremely nit-picky but here goes.  Ignoring the possibility that
adding something might have a different utility than removing something,
a -1/4 Limitation is not mathematically the same as a +1/4 Advantage.

Assume a power that costs 100 points, with a -1/4 limitation that power only
costs you 80 points, a 20% reduction.  That same 100 point power with a +1/4
advantage will cost you 125 points, a 25% increase.

Of course this is only a five point difference and to achieve that 5 point
difference I had to use a power that costs 100 points.  On smaller powers
the point difference would be much less.  Then again, on larger
Limitation/Advantage swappings the difference would get bigger.  ie. a +1
Advantage is a 100% increase while a -1 Limitation is only a 50% reduction.
One a relatively average power, say 40 points the difference is a noticeable
20 points.

Alan




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From easleyap@mobis.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:10:15 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Question on powers


>Does the expression "Black Hole, from which nothing, not even light,
>can escape" mean anything to you?

> -Sam


Under the new theories of Quantum physics "things" for brief periods of time
can exceed the speed of light "sort of" and can and do therefore escape
black holes.

Alan






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From easleyap@mobis.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:55:10 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl D. Cravens <ravenpub@southwind.net>
Newsgroups: list.champ
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System


>On 22 Jul 1998 15:02:32 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>>Then using a 3-point firearms skill level with handguns, submachineguns
and
>>shoulder arms must make no sense to you, either.
>
>Do you attempt to paint me an idiot?  3-point firearms skill levels
>applying to handguns, submachineguns and shoulder arms has little to do
>with flight skill levels applying to increasing acceleration.  Skill in
>accurately pointing several types of firearms makes sense to me.  Skill
>in being able to make an airplane accelerate faster does not.  It's like
>saying that skill levels in firearms can make the bullets go faster.
>
>--
>Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
>Where am I . . . and why am I in this handbasket?


Maybe it would be a little more palatable if you compared it to a +1 OCV
with a particular rifle.  Due to a modification to the rifle such as a Laser
Targeting device.  Not a function of the user but a function of the device.
If a skill level can be part of the hardware couldn't acceleration be part
of a race car (some kind of under the hood doodad that makes it accelerate
faster, like a nitro pack).  If it makes sense as a physical difference in
the hardware then it would be unfair to disallow a character with a natural
power from doing the same.

Alan


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From easleyap@mobis.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:48:54 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weak characters

-----Original Message-----
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 11:53 PM
Subject: Weak characters


>We've had a lot of talk about power gaming and various related bits, but
>has anyone beside me had the prolem of the opposite?  That is, through
>desire for an oddball character, ignorance of the what works, or just plain
>cussedness, someone designs a character that cannot hack it.


I was in a game where one of the other players design a Superman character
but he didn't understand resistant defenses.  The GM didn't notice, and
since
the player didn't understand he kept on applying his total defense against
killing
attacks.  It wasn't until he was mind controlled against us that the
deficiency came
up.  He was nailed with a RKA that had many additional Stun multipliers.
Not
deadly but it sure convinced him to learn the system.  With a little help he
became
one of the games best players.

Alan


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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:50:37 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

> 
> What immense advantage? None of the characters even came close to being
> haveing an IMMENSE advantage.  Prism couldn't be hurt by energy? Big
Deal,
> there were more than enough physical attacks to take him out, from bricks
to
> martial artists to normals with pistols. Not in my games, not in any game
> I've seen where it came up. 
> 

As i said earlier, it's not wether you can take them down- there's ALWAYS
another power. 
The issue is the immense imbalance involved.
> >ohh i forgot to mention he's not a pc- he's a follower bought for 10
> >points. 
> 
> 
> 
> >And yes, he has 100% dr. 
> >THAT'S the type of points imbalance we're talking about. 
> 
> A 10 point Follower... 50 points. so... he must have disadvantages and
> limitation all over the place to make get that 120 point power (one
catagory
> of DR) easy enough to handle. Much better to buy the 50 point follower
with
> lots of aids with only to PC (-1) 
> 

no, he cost 10 points, he has 1000

> Actually I don't know why I am bothering. I think this "debate" has
reached
> that point where no one is going to change anyone's minds... 

that makes three of us. 

> I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> 	But it sure feels good!
> 		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior




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From dflacks@ican.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 08:55:45 -0400
From: dflacks <dflacks@ican.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

Does anyone out there remember the old Champions comic book from Hero
Comics.  The character ICICLE had a form of Heat Sink Powers.

In the comic, there was a cold producing Champion named ICESTAR, I think.
ICICLE was his little sister, and she basically blackmailed her way into
the Champions as a provisional member.  

She pointed out on several occasions that her cold powers were from
absorbing heat while his were from creating cold & ice.  She practiced so
she could do the same cold tricks as he could.  Because her powers were
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From removing heat, she was unable to create ice in hot or dry conditions.
(Just like the ICICLE character  in the BBB, except she was a juvenile
delinquent style hero and member of the champions.)

Late in the series run she finds herself unable to effect anything with her
cold powers and in a fit of frustration, releases the heat she has been
storing.  Instant Radiation Accident, of the 'I've always had these powers
but just did not know' it type. She surrounds herself with a flaming damage
shield, flies, and fire bolts of, well, fire.  She quickly uses up her
stored Heat and end up collapsing, nude, on the ground. Her costume was
designed to resist cold, not a flaming damage shield, and she did not have
enough control to form her shield outside of her clothes.

The next time she uses her fire powers is faced with a fire weilding super
villainesss who immune to her cold powers.  The lady was not immune to a
flame blast in the face!  ICICLE had a lot more control by then, presumably
having practiced using her heat powers.

As a game mechanic the only thing I can suggest off hand is to have your
characters  heat power or powers run off a large END battery.  This battery
would have a small recovery with the restriction, only in rounds where he
uses his cold powers.  Thus he could store up heat when using his cold
powers and release the heat to use his heat powers.  If  he doesn't use his
cold powers then he has not heat to release.

BTW I am not sure I would grant the Massive DF IR Beacon.  Perhaps a
smaller DF.  After all most people can not see IR.  Also in cold mode he
would be a dark shape in the midse of gray, since his change environment
would be cooling the area around him.


Daniel Flacks   dflacks@ican.net

Give me ambiguity or give me something else

----------
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Question on powers
> Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 11:04 PM
> 
> Okay, here's the deal. (And this is one for your physics guys)
> 
> The character in question sucks up heat like a black hole.  They drain
> heat from the surroudning area, making it very cold (Change Environment).
> They can drain off body heat (END Drain etc), Absorb heat/fire attacks,
> freeze people solid (Transformation Attack), give people frostbite
> (Damage Shield Drain), etc.
> 
> This much is a given.  Now, my question is.  If they are such a heat
sink,
> would it be logical from them to be able to vent this heat out?  In
> other words, here is this supposed ice character, in the middle of an icy
> field (and freezing tempatures) tossing blasts of flame.  Is this way
off?
> 
> A friend told me to consider how freon works as cooling agent, since it
> absorbs heat (thus making your refrigidirator cold inside).  Does it have
> to vent this heat somewhere to work properly?
> 
> Oh yeah, natrually the character has a massive Distinctive Features: IR
> Beacon.
> 
> Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
> 
>
***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
* 
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net               
* 
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:       
*   
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html            
*
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT           
*
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
*
>
***************************************************************************
> 

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From llwatts@juno.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 09:51:08 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

>A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
>
>What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII. 
Names
>and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
>but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.

I can't find the character sheets for a time-travel scenario I ran at a
con once, but I remember a character named Tribune : honorable Italian
warrior with Roman-style armor (activation roll), a HKA and normal attack
(depending on whether he used the flat of the sword or the edge), and I
think tactical skills and martial arts.  He might have been one of the
1990's characters, but he would fit in well as a 1940's Italian
sort-of-flagsuit.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:43:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Invulnerability

At 07:34 PM 7/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
>Okay, enough of this sillyness.  Here is a 1 MT nuke from Hero Almanac 2
>
>1  Radiation - 6d6 RKA, AVLD - Does Body (Power Defense); plus 3d6 CON &> BODY Drain, AOE: Radius
>2 Flash - 8d6+1 Major Transform, AVLD (blindness/Sight Flash Defense):
> normal sight to blind human, AOE: Radius
>3 Thermal Blast - 20d6 RKA Energy, AOE: Radius
>4 EM Pulse - 6d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Only vs electronics
>5 Blast Wave - (static overpressure) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, Limited to no
> effect vs soft targets 
> - (winds) 20d6 RKA, AOE: Radius, DBL KB
>6 Negative Pressure - 3d6 RKA, AOE: Radius
>7 Possible Firestorm 
>8 Radiation and fallout
>
>Hmm... I think even with the numbers Albert gane, the target character is
>going to be in a world of hurt.  Oh, and this is a one megaton nuke!  A
>*LITTLE* one!  For comparison's sake, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was
>'only' 20 kilotons.
>
>Note that this is a 7000 Active Point attack as written in HA 1.  Even Mr.
>Lucky, with his 240 points of 100% DR Physical and Energy, would have
>trouble with this weapon.  There is the AVLD and Drains to contend with,
>the fact that there is no NND Does Body to simulate the blast sucking up
>all the oxygen in the area (Does Mr. Lucky have Life Support?) - which
>there should be IMO - and the radiation after affects.  Oh, and you're
>blind too.

   You're quite right, Michael; as constructed in the game in which he was
ran, Mr Lucky would have been dead from the radiation (based purely on
mechanics rather than the SFX of his power), and even if that would have
been bypassed he would have been blind from the Flash.  The thermal blast,
blast wave, and negative pressure wouldn't have affected him, and he did
happen to have Full Life Support (except aging), but going by pure game
mechanics he would have been nearly as dead as everyone else (the
difference being that anyone else at Ground Zero wouldn't leave a corpse).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:58:57 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers

At 06:10 AM 7/26/1998 -0500, Remnant wrote:
>Bob Greenwade:
>
>>   Running with a Turn Mode is a -1/4 Limitation, so "No Turn Mode" on
>>other forms of movement that normally would have a Turn Mode is a +1/4
>>Advantage.  (This will be in TUSV, BTW.)
>
>This is extremely nit-picky but here goes.  Ignoring the possibility that
>adding something might have a different utility than removing something,
>a -1/4 Limitation is not mathematically the same as a +1/4 Advantage.

   No, and there are divisions even in HSR about whether Advantages are the
same as their corresponding Limitations.  Range does correspond, for
instance, but Reduced END/Costs END do not.

>Assume a power that costs 100 points, with a -1/4 limitation that power only
>costs you 80 points, a 20% reduction.  That same 100 point power with a +1/4
>advantage will cost you 125 points, a 25% increase.

   That being true, look at what happens with the 80 point Power with the
Advantage, or the 125 point Power with the Limitation.
   Also, someone (I forget who right offhand) calculated out how much it
would cost to just buy enough Skill Levels with a Movement Power to reduce
the Turn Mode to 1", and it came out really close to a +1/4 Advantage
(something like 0.4 points per inch of movement, vs 0.5 points per inch for
the Advantage).  It only becomes odd for Movement Powers that don't cost 2
points per 1" of movement, but since it's primarily intended for vehicular
Ground Movement anyway, and anything else requires permission from the GM,
it shouldn't be much of a problem.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:21:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 12:00 AM 7/26/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
>
>What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names
>and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
>but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.

   Not to take away anything anyone else has suggested (and certainly, I
agree with Guy's endorsement of Golden Age Champions), I have already gone
through all of the existing Fourth Edition Champions books and found a
number of possibilities:
   For instance, this was the early days of DEMON, back when they were
roughly the equivalent of occultic gangsters.
   A number of characters in Champions Presents would be good; there's not
only a visit to the Golden Age in one adventure, but contact with an
eternal, evil force in another, and both are quite well suited to a Golden
Age campaign.  In fact, Baron von Schull (later to be known as the Iron
Skull) is particularly good.
   Who else?  In no particular order, I can find the following as good
villains for a Golden Age setting, either personally or (in a couple of
cases) as predecessors:  Dr Gregory Kulik (Champions in 3-D), Timemaster
(Classic Enemies), Mister Rapentrap (Normals Unbound), Red Tide (Atlantis),
Card Shark (Dark Champions), the Midnight Society (Alien Enemies),
Archimago (Creatures of the Night), Lady Twilight (Creatures of the Night),
Ghoul (Mutant File), Black Fin (Zodiac Conspiracy, where she's called
Pisces), Dr Yin Wu & company (Watchers of the Dragon), and Iron and Gold
(Watchers of the Dragon).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From susano@access.digex.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champs-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Guy Hoyle wrote:

> Golden Age Champions is a must-have sourcebook for you. Get it. Now.

We have it.  The GM was just looking for some ideas.

>  Nazis make the best villains, of course. Hardly a WWII campaign would
> be complete without a Blitzkrieg or an Ubermensch.  Get a German
> dictionary and make up some names; it's not hard, and they sound
> fearsome. Use the German words for Iron, Black, Red, Blood, Eagle,
> Falcon, etc, images of war, blood, ferocity.

Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  

> The Japanese are good villains, too, but I'd try to avoid stereotyping
> them. Kamikaze and Typhoon are good names to build on.  Italians and
> other Axis powers are good to bring in.

I think this is going to be a European theatre game.

> Mad doctors abound, for this is the tail end of the Pulp era.  Other 
> ideas: disembodied brains, robots built like a refrigerator, magicians,
> apes with human brains, crazed musicians with seccret weapons built
> into their instruments, etc.  Draw from mythology: no reason that Thor
> can't be working for the Nazis.  The Germans were heavy into the occult,
> as well.

Yeah, I know.  I'm more interested in seeing what other people actually
created, as opposed to hints on creating characters.  The GM is doing a
mess of research into aspects of WWII that no one really talks about and
of mysteries of WWII, in order to create good gmae hooks.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 10:48 AM 7/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Kim Foster wrote:
>
>> At 12:00 AM 7/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> >A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
>> >
>> >What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names
>> >and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own,
>> >but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.
>> 
>> Where you looking for "serious" villian or slightly tongue in cheek classic
>> "golden age" villians?
>
>Yes.  What villians did you have active during WWII?
>

I'll take that as meaning both. The examples I have are mostly serious:


PanzerFaust (sp?): Nazi supersoilder, not terribly bright armored hardcase
with prodigous strength and a relentless attitude. Powers stemmed from havin
an Iron body (high strength, damage sheild), bulletproof). Sort of a German
Flagsuit but wasn't fully indoctrinated into the entire Nazi ideaology.... 

Reich Star: A light manipulating energy projector created during an failed
attempt to create an "atomic ray". Driven insane by the pain of his
creation, he was more a force of destruction than anytthing else. Was
eventually consumed by his own power.... 

Valkeyrie:Female Supersoilder, origin unknown. A true hardcase, sadistic
racist and vile. Just about everything you'd think of for a Nazi villianess.
Strong, fast and lethal she was also extremely intelligent. Later revealed
to be an alien... 

War Wolf: A Lycanthrope created during an occult experiment intended to
create and entire unit of shapeshifters. Only he survived the procedure. War
Wolf had the attitude of a trained attack dog, loyal, fearless and
bloodthirsty. Was practically invulnerable to anythigng but the
"tradational" werewolf weaknesses. 

The Hitler Symbiote: An amorphous creature which in fact took over Adolf
Hilter sometime in his early life and used him as a puppet. Little is known
about the being beyond the fact it posseses potent mental abilites and
seemed ageless. 

Bushido: A possesed suit of samurai armor that took over the wearer. The
Japanese "flagsuit" Busshido was "killed" several times but the suit was
seemingly indestrutible and would reform, finding a new host from the same
family after each defeat. Bushido exhibited the sterotypical samurai
behavior take to ludicrous extremes. He would -never- Surrender, was
Honorable to fault and unceassingly offensive.

Arashi (storm?): A weather controlling mage of some power. He was arrogant
and overconfident to a fault but had the power to back it up. Loyal to
Japan, he never the less did not work well with the rest of his group as he
felt he should be the "natural" leader. Arashi was killed at the end of the
war in the bombing of Hiroshima, accidently. 

Zen:Mysterisous female warrior/monk. Labelled a villain because of her
Japanese descent, she did seem to work both sides of the fence often saving
American sevice men and/or working to curb the destrsuction for both sides.
A martial artist, she also possesed some mystic powers (*healing,
levitation, etc etc) of uknown origin. She was killed by Bushido late in the
war for her "betrayal" but materlized later in spiritual form to help
destroy the Hilter Symbiote before it could seek a new host. 


>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
>*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
>*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
	But it sure feels good!
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior


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From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:04:14 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

>Yeah, I know.  I'm more interested in seeing what other people actually
>created, as opposed to hints on creating characters.  The GM is doing a
>mess of research into aspects of WWII that no one really talks about and
>of mysteries of WWII, in order to create good gmae hooks.

I haven't created anything and this may not be the kind of mystery you want
but here goes :-)  These aren't mysteries now, but at the time, they where
to some:

The allies used a dead body of an officer who dies of pneumonia, to fake
the death of a courier off the coast of Spain (or Portugual, forget which).
 The "courier" had fake notes placing the planned Normandy invasion in
Calias.

At least one Allied officer in a bomber bailed out of a burning plane
without a working parachute but survived anyway.  The one I'm thinking
about landed in very small branches of close pine trees followed by a 40
foot snow bank.  He did break both legs and several other bones. 
Ironically, he had to do some fast talking to the German patrol that found
him.  They didn't believe it was possible and almost shot him on the spot
as a spy.  He survived the war as a POW.

I think there is still some mystery surrounding Mata Hari, though I don't
remember what it is.  

Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net

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From ravenpub@southwind.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:35:34 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:55:10 -0500, "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> wrote:
>Maybe it would be a little more palatable if you compared it to a +1 OCV
>with a particular rifle.  Due to a modification to the rifle such as a Laser
>Targeting device.  Not a function of the user but a function of the device.
>If a skill level can be part of the hardware couldn't acceleration be part
>of a race car (some kind of under the hood doodad that makes it accelerate
>faster, like a nitro pack).  If it makes sense as a physical difference in
>the hardware then it would be unfair to disallow a character with a natural
>power from doing the same.

I'm not arguing that accleration can't be part of the race car...  I'm
arguing that acceleration *must* be part of the race car.  It's not
something the *character* can buy and take from race car to race car.

Yes, a rifle can be accurate and a rifleman can be accurate.  But a
race car cannot be made to accelerate faster by the driver behind the
wheel... that's a function of the mechanical part of the car.

I'm not disallowing a character with natural movement from having the
ability to accelerate faster...  I'm saying that the method with which
that ability is bought is imperfect.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Hey! Don't pick up that Dog! !@#$*!?% NO TERRIER

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From ravenpub@southwind.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:44:08 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters
Newsgroups: list.champ

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:33:35 -0500, "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote:
>during design.  Note that I don't see anything wrong with those character
>conceptions in general.  They were just clearly inappropriately weak for
>the campaigns in question.

Maybe the campaign was inappropriately powerful for the characters in
question.  It's a dance, and while one leads, both have to be in step.
If the characters were weak, you should have discussed this with the
players and requested more appropriate characters, or you should have
adjusted the campaign accordingly.

>From where I sit as a GM, I see the problem as being your fault...
something had to change to make the campaign viable but you didn't do
anything to cause a change.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
If it ain't broke, let me have a shot at it.

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From ravenpub@southwind.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:48:48 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers
Newsgroups: list.champ

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:10:05 -0500, "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> wrote:
>Assume a power that costs 100 points, with a -1/4 limitation that power only
>costs you 80 points, a 20% reduction.  That same 100 point power with a +1/4
>advantage will cost you 125 points, a 25% increase.

But if you apply a +1/4 advantage to 80 points, you get 100.  A -1/4
limitation on 100 points gets you 80.

If 100 points of Running is worth 80 points with a Turn Mode added, then
80 points of Flight is worth 100 points with the Turn Mode removed.

This of course assumes that you believe that trading three-dimensional
movement for lack of a turn mode is an equal trade.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
So many idiots, so little ammunition.

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From ravanos@njcu.edu
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:04:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: WWII Villians/Heroes

	Zombie nazis.  Good for cannon fodder and pure shock value.  If
you've ever seen the movie _Heavy Metal_, War is Hell.  :)
	Mad Scientists/Occultists.  If you're famaliar with White Wolf's
Mage, imagine evil Sons of Ether, or the evil scientist from Urotsakidoji
(sp?) II.
	My favorite concept, a sentient supernatural tank.  Imagine a
multi-ton Herbie the Love Bug amalgamed with Christine.
	Ever see The Rocketeer?  Remember the Nazi proganda film in that?
	
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From llwatts@juno.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:02:39 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

>The allies used a dead body of an officer who dies of pneumonia, to fake
>the death of a courier off the coast of Spain (or Portugual, forget
which).
> The "courier" had fake notes placing the planned Normandy invasion in
>Calias.

I believe you're thinking of Operation Mincemeat.  The corpse was
actually a civilian, but got the "cover identity" of Major Martin, Royal
Marines.  He was floated ashore in Spain with papers indicating that the
Allies were going to attack Sicily next (they were really going to attack
Sardinia).  Last time I was in a Barnes and Nobels, "The Man Who Never
Was" was back in print -- it's a bit dated, but it describes the whole
operation.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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From llwatts@juno.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:02:39 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

>> The Japanese are good villains, too, but I'd try to avoid stereotyping
>> them. Kamikaze and Typhoon are good names to build on.  Italians and
>> other Axis powers are good to bring in.
>
>I think this is going to be a European theatre game.

If you're adventuring inside Fortress Europe, you've got to have a
villian connected with the Milice (sp? - the Vichy France secret police).
 The French Resistance hated these guys more than they hated the Gestapo.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From robtwest@erols.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:00:55 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters

Carl D. Cravens wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:33:35 -0500, "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote:
> >during design.  Note that I don't see anything wrong with those character
> >conceptions in general.  They were just clearly inappropriately weak for
> >the campaigns in question.
> 
> Maybe the campaign was inappropriately powerful for the characters in
> question.  It's a dance, and while one leads, both have to be in step.
> If the characters were weak, you should have discussed this with the
> players and requested more appropriate characters, or you should have
> adjusted the campaign accordingly.

"Adjusting the campaign" to accomodate one player who is out-of-step 
with both the GM and the other players is hardly an attractive or 
sensible option.  As for catching it beforehand, Steve's post contained 
his mea culpas in that regard.  I don't know *any* Hero GM who has not, 
on occasion, misread a character sheet that some player submitted and 
ended up with a result that did not fit the campaign well.

> From where I sit as a GM, I see the problem as being your fault...
> something had to change to make the campaign viable but you didn't do
> anything to cause a change.

Err...where do you get that from?  Nothing in the original post said a 
thing about the campaigns' having become non-viable.  One or two 
characters were too weak, and the GM overlooked it, for whatever reason, 
possibly because he was handed a sheet when he was busy starting up an 
adventure. I have stated to my campaign that no character sheet or major 
expenditure of points will be official until I have had one week to 
review.  The player is usually granted permission to have the power or 
character temporarily, but if I find a problem, it is subject to 
revision.

Nevertheless, I have had people come up with non-viable designs, and have 
generally found that they refuse to listen, and express disappointment 
that I am interfering with the brilliance of their grand vision.  I have 
even found this while attempting to help a neophyte player come up with a 
character for another GM's campaign.  Let me illustrate one player's 
exploits with three characters:

In a campaign where I was not GM, she insisted that her Sonic Projector 
must also have martial arts and a host of detective skills, as well as 
huge defenses.  This left her with too little strength to make an impact 
with her martial arts, and energy blasts that were two or three DCs below 
everyone else's.  I warned her that this character design was 
offense-poor, but she insisted and would not listen.  Ultimately, the GM 
came in with a mandatory re-design, but she complained because he took 
away her Martial Arts to pay for some offensive powers that were usable.

In my campaign, she insisted on having a mentalist, all of whose powers 
were zero END and invisible.  I explained that having a +1 Advantage 
would limit her to 3D6 mental attacks in a campaign with a limit of DC 10 
and 60 active points.  She insisted that she understood and knew what she 
was doing, so I relented.  She became very frustrated at the fact that 
she never seemed to be able to stun anyone other than normals.  I 
recommended that she buy a "Sunday Punch" 5D6 Ego Attack, but she 
refused, being mortally afraid of being noticed and of spending END.  She 
condemned the character as "useless".  I pointed out that she had the 
ability to Drain EGO invisibly, Teleportation, Invisibility (mental 
command "don't notice me") Danger Sense (constant awareness of strong 
violent thoughts) and respectable amounts of Telepathy and Ego Blast in a 
campaign where Mental Defense was rare; nevertheless, she insisted that 
the character could do nothing useful and retired the character.

She devised another character whose powers work only at night.  I refused 
to accept the character, on the obvious grounds stated in the book.  She 
pleaded, and said that she would be perfectly happy to accept being 
effective only half the time, in return for knowing that the character 
would be dauntingly effective at those times.  I relented, on condition 
that she take a Follower, who would have some useful non-combat abilities 
that could give her something to do during daytime adventures.  Of 
course, the follower is not a main battle character, and so there are 
battles in which she cannot participate, because her follower dare not 
and her main character cannot.  She always complains to be afterwards 
about them.  Sigh!

Based on these experiences, I am willing to give Steve some slack.

-- 
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113  
http://www.erols.com/robtwest



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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 26 Jul 1998 20:10:29 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Carl D Cravens writes:

> I'm not arguing that accleration can't be part of the race car...  I'm
> arguing that acceleration *must* be part of the race car.  It's not
> something the *character* can buy and take from race car to race car.

No, it is something tied to the particular car.  Just as the Viper is more
maneuverable than a Neon, it can accelerate much faster than a Neon.  There
is no question about it.  Zero to sixty, Viper wins.

Maneuverability is represented with skill levels with a movement form to
reduce the Turn Mode for that movement form.  It is just a logical leap
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From to the concept of skill levels also being able to modify the
acceleration of a vehicle.  The skill levels are not posessed by the
driver, they are posessed by the vehicle.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 26 Jul 1998 20:06:52 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Carl D Cravens writes:

> Do you attempt to paint me an idiot?  3-point firearms skill levels
> applying to handguns, submachineguns and shoulder arms has little to do
> with flight skill levels applying to increasing acceleration.

Why not?  Or, if you would, why would a movement skill level not be able to
affect acceleration?  You have made that claim several times; please
substantiate it.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 26 Jul 1998 20:14:28 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mian Toris

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Surbrook writes:

> Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes
> 30	STR	20	15-	1600kg; 6d6
                                ^^^^^^
If she were 1600Kg, Wataru would never have been able to lug her off
Shion's battleship.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

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From susano@access.digex.net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mian Toris

On 26 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Michael Surbrook writes:
> 
> > Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes
> > 30	STR	20	15-	1600kg; 6d6

That's lift capacity, not weight.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 26 Jul 1998 21:05:01 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mian Toris

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Surbrook writes:

>>> 30	STR	20	15-	1600kg; 6d6

> That's lift capacity, not weight.

Oops.... my mistake.

What I get for skimming.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 05:59:50 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: "Vancian" Magic

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:30:50 -0700, Filksinger wrote:

>From: qts
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:12:24 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> >
>> >   Actually, I did use that principle when I was
>> playing A*&*.  The group
>> >was on its way from the village where they lived
>> to a nearby temple, and
>> >were about to be met on the road by a small army
>> of orcs.  Since the party
>> >was only (at best) fourth level and had only
>> five people in it, the one
>> >character who did have a wish coming wished that
>> the entire party was
>> >standing in front of the temple.  I had to write
>> down and closely examine
>> >the exact wording of the wish before I
>> determined that I couldn't teleport
>> >the temple to them, but had to do it the other
>> way around.
>>
>> With respect, if you act like that, you're
>> suffering from the 'killer
>> DM' syndrome. A Wish should only be twisted if
>> unreasonable or if
>> granted by a malevolent entity.
>
>Not necessarily. In many genres it is _traditional_ for
>wishes to be twisted. If the players expect this, it is part
>of the world.
>
>There are also neutral beings for whom a wish is a contest.
>Larry Niven wrote a short story about a Djinn who got quite
>upset when he realized that he was facing two people who
>knew that the whole point of "three wishes" was a game:
>Grant three wishes that leave the recipient in exactly the
>same state as when he started, or if you can't do that,
>leave him no better off.

That's different! You're granting them *Three* Wishes, and yes, this is
a staple of fiction

>
>Last but not least, there is the energy limitation. In my
>campaigns, wishes are often completely non-thinking magical
>constructs, which will always do whatever takes the least
>energy and fulfills the exact wording of the wish.

It's your campaign.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 12:05:14 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: "Vancian" Magic

On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 04:06:35 -0500 (CDT), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> With respect, if you act like that, you're suffering from the 'killer
>> DM' syndrome. A Wish should only be twisted if unreasonable or if
>> granted by a malevolent entity.
>
>Now what's the fun in that?  The best part of Wish is the
>unpredictability.  It's an example of, "Do I really want to take a chance
>to use this power?"

I think we have a fundamental difference of ethics here. If a Wish is
unreasonable, then I'll twist it, likewise if the wish-granter is
malevolent. But we play this game for MUTUAL FUN, not an ego-trip.

>  Of course, when the totally insane Beastman Chaos
>Warrior (anyone recognize that reference?) 

Runequest or Warhammer.

>wishes for a hot fudge sundae,
>well, I'll let him have a damn good hot fudge sundae.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 06:08:18 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net>,
    Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Juggy and Invulnerability (Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:30:48 -0700, Filksinger wrote:

>From: qts
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:24:07 -0700 (PDT), Kim
>> Foster wrote:
>>
>> >Maybe Shatterstar's swords were made by woman? :D
>>
>> I see someon'e been reading their Shakespeare.
>
>I always liked Act 5, Scene 8, where Macbeth informed his
>enemy, Macduff, that he could not be killed by "one of woman
>born", only to be told that Macduff was delivered by
>C-section.:)

Exactly!
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From tesseract@pclink.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:50:12 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Different Disads

`Lo All,

As long as we're talking characters here how about something different in
the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there is
going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID, Psych
Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good old
standards?

Another thing which might be useful are some different ways people use for
determining the appropriate disads for their characters.

Thanks,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 06:06:02 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>, Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Invulnerability

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:24:32 +1000, Lockie wrote:

>
>
>----------
>> From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>> To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>; Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
>> Subject: Re: Invulnerability
>> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 7:53 PM
>> 
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:06:43 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>> 
>> >I have no problem with indestructable creatures, what i ask is, 
>> >seeing as this is an npc-type creature, and you have the categories laid
>> >out, 
>> >why quantify it at all? why not just write 'invunerable to fire and 
>> >magical fire' in the ddescription notes?
>> 
>> Because adjustment powers affect DR. Take Howler from the HSR. She has
>> Absorbtion to her EC: DR. At some point it's going to get Absorbed to
>> 120AP at which point she will have 100%DR vs sound. Equally she might
>> get stuck in an Inertia field or whatever which Drains her DR to 25% or
>> 50%. Thus 100% DR needs to be quantified.
>> qts
>> 
>> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
>
>that's just silly. again you're insisting that dr eventually gives way to 
>100% proof vs damage, despite that being the ANTITHISIS of the power? 

I disagree: just because the chart only goes up to 75% doesn't mean
that it can't be extended to 100%

>Normal pd works from the princible that you get total proof vs limited
>damage. 
>DR works from the opposite- that you get LMITED proof vs any damage. 

Currently.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 06:17:38 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 05:12:35 -0400, TokyoMark wrote:

>Tokyo Rose -- Female martial artist or even mentalist.  Probably working
>independantly since the Japanese military would not be very supportive of a
>woman fighting for them.

Many women were ninja - 'kunoichi', if memory serves.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 06:20:58 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: "champs-l@sysabend.org" <champs-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:

>Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
>(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  

Surely the former would be a Turkish villain? :} After all, no PC wants
to get kebabbed.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:18:12 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 06:10 AM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Question on powers
>
>
>>Does the expression "Black Hole, from which nothing, not even light,
>>can escape" mean anything to you?
>
>> -Sam
>
>
>Under the new theories of Quantum physics "things" for brief periods of time
>can exceed the speed of light "sort of" and can and do therefore escape
>black holes.
>
>Alan
Under the "old" theories of quantum physics, a black hole can appear to be
giving off radiation.  In short, the idea is that occasionally two opposite
particles just "blink" into existance.  Normally, they would cancel each
other out (this is _not_ matter vs antimatter), but a black hole could suck
one in and the other would escape.  It gets weirder from here.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:37:40 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters

At 10:44 AM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:33:35 -0500, "Melinda and Steven Mitchell"
<mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote:
>>during design.  Note that I don't see anything wrong with those character
>>conceptions in general.  They were just clearly inappropriately weak for
>>the campaigns in question.
>
>Maybe the campaign was inappropriately powerful for the characters in
>question.  It's a dance, and while one leads, both have to be in step.
>If the characters were weak, you should have discussed this with the
>players and requested more appropriate characters, or you should have
>adjusted the campaign accordingly.
>
>From where I sit as a GM, I see the problem as being your fault...
>something had to change to make the campaign viable but you didn't do
>anything to cause a change.
>
As a player who has had at least two weak characters, I don't think the
campaign should be expected to change just because I can't design a PC.  I
sit down with the GM, who is very busy and probably has to check over 3
characters before tonight's game, and he/she looks for obvious errors and
quick repairs.  If the character is still of little or no use, the GM takes
it home.  At the next game, I get a more point-efficient version and some
suggestions on how to spend my points.  Like "I saved you 25 points.  You
might want 2d6 more in your EB."  But all in all, it's my fault because I
don't know the rules.
Exception: I once played with a min/max specialist.  He had designed the
characters for about half the group, and there was just no way anybody else
could compete.  That _was_ the GM's fault.  The 3 I remember best: A
multiform who changed forms to move on every phase and had hunteds for each
form, a powered armor brick who took damage from exposure to air, and a
normal guy with all his points in a "magic" power pool.  And I Know that
all of these are against the rules.  Either they weren't at the time
(1984?), or nobody at the game knew they were.

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______________________________________________________________________________



From rscott@hawaii.edu
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:45:03 -1000
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu>
To: lizard@mrlizard.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Off Topic]Superworld

perhaps because the system was 'deadly', so to speak?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 14/07/98, at 8:17, 	Lizard  wrote: 

>I picked up Superworld and Superworld Companion a few months ago at a con,
>but only got around to really reading them in-depth yesterday. It sure
>looks like a workable system for 1984. Why didn't it 'catch on'? I'd rate
>it as nearly as good as 2nd Ed Champions, (NOTE:That's without actually
>PLAYING it, mind you!) and it had the advantage of near-compatibility with
>the other Chaosium games, such as CoC. "Captain Mighty meets Cthulhu", anyone?
>
>So why did it end up forgotten and lost by gaming history?

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______________________________________________________________________________



From dave.wolf@intel.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:41:00 -0700
From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com>
To: "\"Champions Mailing List\" " <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    "\"Michael Surbrook\" " <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: RE: WWII Villians

Finally a subject that I can relate too.  

Here's some stuff I've picked up off the internet that might come in handy
for 
all of you Golden Age gamers-

Golden Age V&V but good for Champs also
http://www.pcisys.net/~pandemonium/v&v/glorydays/gd.htm
Lots of character write ups and equipment information that can be quickly 
adapted for Champs.

Some Axis and Allied Heroes for marvel at
http://www.expage.com/page/gah

Good military history can be found at
http://160.147.68.21:80/cmh-pg/
There are a lot of online handbooks on WWII here including an interesting
one on
German tactics and one on US Special Forces.

A great timeline of events in WWII can be found at
http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/ww2.htm

A day by day history from 1941-42 at
http://www.flash.net/~hfwright/dl_index.htm

Here's a timeline if your going to do something in San Francisco for this 
century
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/timeline.html

Another San Francisco timeline
http://www.sfmuseum.org/1906/ww2.html

Some good info on what was on the radio in the 40's
http://www.old-time.com/otrhx.html
Great stuff for atmosphere and alot of tapes of the radio shows have been
coming
out in bookstores all over the place.

Classic Movies from the 40's in case you wanted to know what was playing 
http://www.moviesunlimited.com/40music.htm

USMC Operations in WWII
http://sunsite.unc.edu/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-I.html#II

A good list of WWII historical links can be found at
http://www.cfcsc.dnd.ca/links/milhist/wwii.html

Historical Maps
http://ac.acusd.edu/History/WW2Timeline/Maps.html

Some great maps of German camps and Industrial complexes at
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7087/
Perfect if you ever have to send your PC's in to infiltrate a german
stronghold,
might as well be accurate.  Heck a few arial photographs never hurt the
realism 
either.

Here's some WWII Mecha for all of you Mecha fiends, I know your out there
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1320/gk/index.html

I know this is a lot of overkill but hey, if your going to run it why not
pull 
out all of the stops.  If any of you have any good WWII links please let me 
know.



A friend is setting up a Golden Age game, and the question arose:
     
What sort of Axis villains do you have (or had) active during WWII.  Names 
and brief powers descriptions would be nice. We've got some of our own, 
but seeing what others came up with would be a big help.
     
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        * 
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
***************************************************************************

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From h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:19:58 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>, Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The symbiote discussion, a new power, and the 5th Edition.

At 08:15 AM 7/20/98 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> At 01:31 PM 7/19/98 -0500, Carl D. Cravens wrote:
>>
>> >The problem that everyone seems to be ignoring is that Eddie Brock is a
>> >relatively innocent bystander in the scheme of things.  All of the
>> >powers belong to the symbiote, which can "merge" with anyone it wants.
>> >This fact is completely unrepresented by any combination of
>> >multiform/duplication/"combine".
>
>The powers are the symbiote's,

Largely the symbiote's, the short series Disconnection anxiety or something
had them separated and Brock has done a _lot_ of physical training and is
well above human average strength _now_.

> but the personality is Brock, or at least
>mostly Brock,

Largely so yes.

> so I'm not sure you can just say 'hes an innocent
>bystander'.  (This is based on my limited knowledge of the series.  I
>don't /think/ the symbiote controls Brock's mind, aside from maybe giving
>him an antipathy to Spiderman...)

Brock had his own reasons to hate Spiderman (although they've got an uneasy
truce at the minute)
>
>>  I don't remember, does Brock take damage when the symbiote takes damage
>> (And I mean real "heals at the speed a normal like Brock should heal"
>> damage, not "Brock looks like ground beef though, in reality, he's
>> regenerates real fast because of the symbiote" damage.)  In the former
>> case, mutliform is inappropriate because it removes Brock from the area (He
>> won't take damage).
>
>Take a limitation on Multiform: damage carries over between forms.
>
Generally the Symbiote absorbs all the damage.

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From h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:21:03 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: Douglas Uptegraft <s002cdu@discover.wright.edu>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers not exactly covered....

At 02:25 AM 7/21/98 -0400, Douglas Uptegraft wrote:
>Hi, all. 
> 
>I've just started getting this list recently. The discussion on powers not
>covered in 4th ed and how they could be done reminded me of a couple of
>ideas I never did get quite right. 
> 
>How would you mimic in game terms the ability to open a portal between two
>points? This would be something like the wormhole from _Sliders_ or maybe
>Magik of the New Mutants. I've tried everything from weird teleportation
>to tunneling as a base power and it still doesn't seem quite right.

Teleportation, area of effect (maybe extra time built in), of course range
might be lower than you want.
Extra-dimensional movement might be used as well, if you don't mind going
into "Limbo" or something.

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From h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:20:52 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers/power sets that HERO dosen't do well (or can't do  at all)

At 12:34 PM 7/20/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:

I hope nobody minds me trying to use this as a learning exercise myself 

>	...well, guys.  This is my can of worms.
>	When ever I'm 'pitching' HERO to any of my friends, I tell them
>'the remearkable thing about HERO is that you can model nearly *any* power
>with it...' and with that, I'm bombarded with every single cross-genre,
>magical, Anime, super-hero type power that my friends can think of.
>	
>	"I want to be able to make busses fall from the sky..."

Depending upon what the player actually want's to do with the power
That's a summon and probably an area of effect energy blast or killing attack.
It could even just be the special effect of a vehicle.

>	"I want a giant laser cannon floating in space like the SoL from
>AKIRA..."

How big is that? You could have it as a base or as a special effect on an
energy blast I guess.

>	"I want to be able to vomit jellybeans."

A bizarre transform?
A special effect life support no need to eat....

>	"I want to be able to project the parasitic nanoids in my
>circulatory system that will attack my enemies by eliminating the oxygen
>in their blood stream."

I'd have that as an NND energy blast myself.

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From h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:22:18 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The symbiote discussion, a new power, and the 5th Edition.

At 05:23 PM 7/21/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>
>> 
>> From the symbiote's point of view, Brock is meaningless.  And thus, a
>dupe.
>>  You might argue with innocent, but not dupe.
>> 
>>   Joe
>> 
>
>nuh-uh! venom had the edge on spidey because eddie brock 
>can benchpress a ton himself-

Well he can benchpress a lot anyway, either solely due to working out or
due to long term exposure to the symbiote.
The main reason that Venom has the edge over Spiderman comes down to 1 of 2
things. 
1) His spider sense doesn't work against it
2) Venom is quicker & stronger than Spidy is.

> and it's been a loooong time 
>since the symbiote tried to swop 'dupes'. . . .i can remember
>ages ago spidey knocked them out by offering the symbiote 
>his own body,

Yeah, way back in the first couple of confrontations iirc.

> but the conflict between eddie and the blob's 
>loyalties knocked them both out. . it is unlikely 
>that the black symbiote could change hosts now,

No, it could change hosts but it's not likely to chose to do so.

> however
>the RED symbiote has done so repeatedly. Kassidy is nothing
>without the red symbiote- so yer 'dupe' idea works there but 
>venom is another story.

Kassidy is still psychotic without the red symbiote, he doesn't have any
super-powers though.

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From h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:22:45 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Powers/power sets that HERO dosen't do well (or can't doat   all)

At 06:06 AM 7/22/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:10 PM 7/22/1998 +1000, Lockie wrote:

>
>>No it isn't. Remember, special effects are inaccurate concepts, when
>>compared
>>to power mechanics. Let's say a super is immune to EB attacks.

Maybe, but then again it's easier to come up with a character who would be
immune to all powers of a special effect than it is to come up with someone
who should be immune to all EBs. A character who absorbs all sound probably
shouldn't be affected by sonics, but what character should be immune to
sonics, lasers, electricity, plasma, ....etc

>> Fine, if it says 
>>'eb' in the power description, it's simple and easily understood.
>>Let's say a fire elemental is immune to fire- are they 
>>immune to MAGICAL fire? are they immune to the blue flame of the dark wyrm?

Again that'd depend, at least in part, on the special effects of the
powers. A Fire Elemental would probably be immune to magical fire, but I'd
need to know what the blue flame of the dark wyrm actually was and did
before I commented on it.
>
>   I know what EB is as a game mechanic (Energy Blast), but what type of
>special effect is EB?
>
>>What about molten magma? Where do yoiu draw the line? In the end 
>>it's all about drawing the line, and that's what gm calls and plot devices
>>are 
>>for. It's NOT what game mechanics are for. 

Well I don't know about that, I think there are times when it should be
mechanic based and times when it should be a gm call.

>
>   Actually, it's precisely what game mechanics are for.  The fire
>elemental in the example I deleted would take no damage from molten magma,
>from evaporated rock, or from the heart of a sun.  It's a fire elemental.

Well you do have to ask about the physical force of magma and the
gravitational force as it enters the sun but fair enough.

Also what about a more powerful elemental?
>
>>> IMHO, Hero products should rarely exclude something because it is deemed
>>> "cheesy" or unbalancing.  Put a stop sign, make it an optional rules,
>>flag
>>> it however you like--but let me decide for my game.
>>
>>Ok, from that logic then all game balance should be thrown out the window,

Look, I'm sorry to say this but there are a _heap_ of ways you can create a
completely overpowered character in Champions, you might want to look at
what you can do with a brick for 250 points if you pump dex up reasonably
high. 
The price Champions & Hero pay for their versatility is the ability to
create something (either deliberately or accidently) overpowered to the
extreme.

>>and 
>>most new players would end up in monty haul faster that you can recalibrate
>>your one-shot temporal destabiliser.

Sorry, but I don't agree there. I doubt that Hero will ever drag too many
people straight in off the street with no roleplaying experience. Hell, I
owned it for 3 years before I played it and I've been roleplaying for 10
years now because the rules are rather daunting. 

As such most people will be sensible enough to pay attention to the
comments on the dangers etc of various powers.

>> RPG's should be built with
>>constructive balances to 
>>the power system and work from the princible that a degree of game balance
>>is a good thing. The current stop-sign powers are FAR less beardy than any
>>sort
>>of mechanical invunerability.

I don't know, the ability to turn someone into a Goldfish is rather
powerful for mine, ditto summoning Thor....

>> If you want something in your game, add it.
>>don't 
>>expect publishers to threaten the structural integrity of their game just
>>to 
>>answer your particular requirements.
>
>   You think the current stop-sign powers are less "beardy" than mechanical
>invulnerability?  Pesonally, I'd rather deal with Mr. Lucky than with
>someone who can teleport his enemies into space (which can be done rather
>easily for the same 240 points it cost Mr. Lucky for that 100%DR).

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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:04:21 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers


----------
> From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Question on powers
> Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 3:18 PM
> 
> At 06:10 AM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
> >To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> >Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: Question on powers
> >
> >
> >>Does the expression "Black Hole, from which nothing, not even light,
> >>can escape" mean anything to you?
> >
> >> -Sam
> >
> >
> >Under the new theories of Quantum physics "things" for brief periods of
time
> >can exceed the speed of light "sort of" and can and do therefore escape
> >black holes.
> >
> >Alan
> Under the "old" theories of quantum physics, a black hole can appear to
be
> giving off radiation.  In short, the idea is that occasionally two
opposite
> particles just "blink" into existance.  Normally, they would cancel each
> other out (this is _not_ matter vs antimatter), but a black hole could
suck
> one in and the other would escape.  It gets weirder from here.

heyyy. . isn't the situation in which that partical/antiparticle thing
occurs 
more common in that particular area for some reason? or somehting. . 
wouldn't that lead to cool sfx? man i gotta re-read ABHOT. . 

"Enslave humanity willya?"


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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:53:04 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

----------
> From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: WWII Villians
> Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 8:02 AM
> 
> >The allies used a dead body of an officer who dies of pneumonia, to fake
> >the death of a courier off the coast of Spain (or Portugual, forget
> which).
> > The "courier" had fake notes placing the planned Normandy invasion in
> >Calias.
> 
> I believe you're thinking of Operation Mincemeat.  The corpse was
> actually a civilian, but got the "cover identity" of Major Martin, Royal
> Marines.  He was floated ashore in Spain with papers indicating that the
> Allies were going to attack Sicily next (they were really going to attack
> Sardinia).  Last time I was in a Barnes and Nobels, "The Man Who Never
> Was" was back in print -- it's a bit dated, but it describes the whole
> operation.
> 
> Leah
> 
> 

This was also used in a sci-fi series called
'space', in which a newly executed trooper was
strapped into a remote control dropship and
dumped on an alien planet. . they actually
refer to the original mission, so it was more of
a . . . tribute. 

_____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

______________________________________________________________________________
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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:40:56 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The symbiote discussion, a new power, and the 5th Edition.

----------
> From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
> To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>; champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: The symbiote discussion, a new power, and the 5th Edition.
> Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 9:22 PM
> 
> At 05:23 PM 7/21/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> From the symbiote's point of view, Brock is meaningless.  And thus, a
> >dupe.
> >>  You might argue with innocent, but not dupe.
> >> 
> >>   Joe
> >> 
> >
> >nuh-uh! venom had the edge on spidey because eddie brock 
> >can benchpress a ton himself-
> 
> Well he can benchpress a lot anyway, either solely due to working out or
> due to long term exposure to the symbiote.
> The main reason that Venom has the edge over Spiderman comes down to 1 of
2
> things. 
> 1) His spider sense doesn't work against it
> 2) Venom is quicker & stronger than Spidy is.
> 

stronger yes, quicker no. several times venom is mentioned as being
less fast, agile and 'fleet of foot', and the time he gets the drop on
spidey
are clearly due to the spider sence problem.

> > but the conflict between eddie and the blob's 
> >loyalties knocked them both out. . it is unlikely 
> >that the black symbiote could change hosts now,
> 
> No, it could change hosts but it's not likely to chose to do so.
> 

i disagree. they're a bonded pair. likely unto death. the 'moving symbiote'
plotline has been clearly carnage's sthic for some time. 

> > however
> >the RED symbiote has done so repeatedly. Kassidy is nothing
> >without the red symbiote- so yer 'dupe' idea works there but 
> >venom is another story.
> 
> Kassidy is still psychotic without the red symbiote, he doesn't have any
> super-powers though.

and he lies on the ground and shivers. . .sca-ry!


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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:05:52 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 11:50 PM 7/26/98 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>As long as we're talking characters here how about something different in
>the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there is
>going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID, Psych
>Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
>have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good old
>standards?
>
>Another thing which might be useful are some different ways people use for
>determining the appropriate disads for their characters.

A good source for disad ideas is the Dark Champions book.  

Also, you'll find that the better you know and understand your character
before you even start putting him on paper, the easier it's going to be 
to come up with those 100 points.  Especially, you should work out his 
background, perhaps even before you come up with his powers.

Enraged or Accidental Change are risky, but seem to be popular within
our group.  Also Distinctive Features, but I think that this rule tends
to be abused just a bit.  Personally, I like the Physical Limitations.

We also use Reputation as part of our team membership package.

All this is well and good, but I get the impression you were looking
for some specific examples:

- Your character volunteers with a local orphanage or school group.
  Take an entire class full of kids as a single DNPC.

- Unfamiliar with Human Society is good for an initial point boost, 
  but you should buy it off soon.

- Take a mystery Hunted.  They're fun and challenging, and the GM
  gets to do all the work.  Say your character is being stalked (or
  just THINKS he's being stalked) by some mysterious, dark, hooded 
  figure.  Maybe it just started out as an attention-getting ploy, 
  but has turned into a reality -- and nobody believes anymore the
  boy who cried 'wolf'.

- Colorblind is a good Physical lim.  And just wait until the first
  time you're asked to disarm a bomb over the radio link.

Keep in mind that you should never take a disad just for the sake
of getting some extra points for that multipower.  Be ready to play
any disad you take.
=========================  ==============================================
Mike Christodoulou           "I'd rather die while I'm living 
Cypriot@Concentric.net        Than live while I'm dead."
(770) 662-5605                               -- Jimmy Buffett
=========================  ==============================================

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From b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:52:00 -500
From: Vance Scott <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: vances@sympatico.ca
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 
> >Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
> >(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  

I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly. 



Vance Scott

vances@sympatico.ca

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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

On 26 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Carl D Cravens writes:
> 
> > Do you attempt to paint me an idiot?  3-point firearms skill levels
> > applying to handguns, submachineguns and shoulder arms has little to do
> > with flight skill levels applying to increasing acceleration.
> 
> Why not?  Or, if you would, why would a movement skill level not be able to
> affect acceleration?  You have made that claim several times; please
> substantiate it.

I think his problems stems from not seeing how a generic 'movement skill
level' in a car would be able to affect both accelleration and
maneuverability.

If the car is maneuverable, it should buy maneuvering skill levels.

If it accellerates quickly, it should buy accelleration skill levels.

If it does both, it should buy both skill levels, not one skill level that
encompasses both.

The only way I can really see having one skill level that would affect
both is for a system that allowed increased accelleration /or/
maneuverability, but not both at the same time.  The 'swing-wing' system
on a F-14 Tomcat comes to mind, but I don't think any cars have similar
systems.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:44:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lockie wrote:

<snip follower stuff>

> no, he cost 10 points, he has 1000

Last I checked, 10 points got you a 50 pt follower.  It's a 1:5 ratio, not 
1:100.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Vance Scott wrote:

> > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > 
> > >Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
> > >(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  
> 
> I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
> after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly. 

Uh... no.  In fact, Donner is an alternative name for Thor, as I
understand.  Much like Woden is Odin (and Lodge for Loki).  And if Donner
and Blitzen have any real power, no one will be laughing for long.

Then, of course, there is the fact that Eclair (or something close to
that) is French for Lightning...

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:24:33 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 07:52 PM 7/27/1998 -500, Vance Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> 
>> >Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
>> >(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  
>
>I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
>after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly.

   In light of Dr Nuncheon's point, though, they wouldn't be laughing for
long.... (or all the way to the intensive care unit).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:58:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

At 08:10 PM 7/26/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Carl D Cravens writes:
>
>> I'm not arguing that accleration can't be part of the race car...  I'm
>> arguing that acceleration *must* be part of the race car.  It's not
>> something the *character* can buy and take from race car to race car.
>
>No, it is something tied to the particular car.  Just as the Viper is more
>maneuverable than a Neon, it can accelerate much faster than a Neon.  There
>is no question about it.  Zero to sixty, Viper wins.

   This is essentially what Carl was saying, Rat.

>Maneuverability is represented with skill levels with a movement form to
>reduce the Turn Mode for that movement form.  It is just a logical leap
>from to the concept of skill levels also being able to modify the
>acceleration of a vehicle.  The skill levels are not posessed by the
>driver, they are posessed by the vehicle.

   The problem with looking at acceleration as a function of Skill Levels
is that even if they're possessed by the driver, they'd affect the vehicle,
just as the driver's Skill Levels would affect the maneuvering and, to an
extent, the turn mode.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:29:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: "Vancian" Magic

At 05:59 AM 7/27/1998, qts wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:12:24 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>
>>> >   Actually, I did use that principle when I was
>>> playing A*&*.  The group
>>> >was on its way from the village where they lived
>>> to a nearby temple, and
>>> >were about to be met on the road by a small army
>>> of orcs.  Since the party
>>> >was only (at best) fourth level and had only
>>> five people in it, the one
>>> >character who did have a wish coming wished that
>>> the entire party was
>>> >standing in front of the temple.  I had to write
>>> down and closely examine
>>> >the exact wording of the wish before I
>>> determined that I couldn't teleport
>>> >the temple to them, but had to do it the other
>>> way around.
>>>
>>> With respect, if you act like that, you're
>>> suffering from the 'killer
>>> DM' syndrome. A Wish should only be twisted if
>>> unreasonable or if
>>> granted by a malevolent entity.
>>
>>Not necessarily. In many genres it is _traditional_ for
>>wishes to be twisted. If the players expect this, it is part
>>of the world.
   [snip]
>>Last but not least, there is the energy limitation. In my
>>campaigns, wishes are often completely non-thinking magical
>>constructs, which will always do whatever takes the least
>>energy and fulfills the exact wording of the wish.
>
>It's your campaign.

   Just incidentally, as the person whose comment started this line of
talking, it was this very element that finally determined that it should be
the party, and *not* the temple, that was teleported.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:54:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Flight (Wings) - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

	I'm designing a character who has Flight (SFX Wings).  However,
this particular character has a maxium weight capacity of his casual STR.
In addition, I thought lessening the velocity of his flight with an
increasing burden would be appropiate for the character concept.
	I was wondering if these limitations would be best represented by
Limitations on Flight or Phys Lims.
	As a side question, is there any way to increase your 'casual
STR', as would be the case for the SFX 'extremely developed plyometric
stregnth.'
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:52:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 07:52 PM 7/27/1998 -500, Vance Scott wrote:
> >> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Yeah, I think everyone uses Blitxkreig and Ubermensch.  There's a Donner
> >> >(Thunder) and Blitzen (Lightning) as well.  
> >
> >I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
> >after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly.
> 
>    In light of Dr Nuncheon's point, though, they wouldn't be laughing for
> long.... (or all the way to the intensive care unit).

Eh? Is my name being taken in vain?  I didn't thinK i was even /in/ this
thread...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:47:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

> Then, of course, there is the fact that Eclair (or something close to
> that) is French for Lightning...
	...believe it or not, there is a duo of European super-heroes
named Eclair (and her partner has an equally silly name) in a book based
on the Tick: Animated Series.
	...even stranger, I wanted to buy it (but didn't).

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From ravenpub@southwind.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

> I think his problems stems from not seeing how a generic 'movement skill
> level' in a car would be able to affect both accelleration and
> maneuverability.

I think my problem stems from believing that acceleration should be a
power modifier and not a skill level at all.  

> If it accellerates quickly, it should buy accelleration skill levels.

This isn't a given.  I disagree with it. 
 
--
Carl (ravenpub@southwind.net)


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From paladin@uvic.ca Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Draco Paladin <paladin@uvic.ca>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 	As a side question, is there any way to increase your 'casual
> STR', as would be the case for the SFX 'extremely developed plyometric
> stregnth.'

You could buy X STR only for casual STR (-1).

Not sure of the lim value, maybe (-1/2), I guess it depends on how often
casual STR is used in your campaign.  In the campaigns I've been in it
hasen't been used that much.

---------------------------------------------
Mother is the name for GOD on the lips and
hearts of all children.  - Eric Draven



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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:23:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 	I'm designing a character who has Flight (SFX Wings).  However,
> this particular character has a maxium weight capacity of his casual STR.
> In addition, I thought lessening the velocity of his flight with an
> increasing burden would be appropiate for the character concept.
> 	I was wondering if these limitations would be best represented by
> Limitations on Flight or Phys Lims.

I'd call them limitations on flight - they don't affect you when you're
not flying, really.  OTOH, you could possibly take Phys Lim: Wings, and
tweak the value so that it would cover not only the velocity lessening but
also the problems of having big masses of muscle and feather hanging off
of your back - makes it uncomfortable to ride in a car, fit through tight
spaces, etc.

> 	As a side question, is there any way to increase your 'casual
> STR', as would be the case for the SFX 'extremely developed plyometric
> stregnth.'

20 STR (or pick a number), Only for increasing Casual STR (probably a -2)

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:03:20 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 8:05 AM -0400 7/27/98, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 11:50 PM 7/26/98 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>>As long as we're talking characters here how about something different in
>>the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there is
>>going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID, Psych
>>Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
>>have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good old
>>standards?
>>
>>Another thing which might be useful are some different ways people use for
>>determining the appropriate disads for their characters.
>
>A good source for disad ideas is the Dark Champions book.
>
>Also, you'll find that the better you know and understand your character
>before you even start putting him on paper, the easier it's going to be
>to come up with those 100 points.  Especially, you should work out his
>background, perhaps even before you come up with his powers.
>

Actually I find that the greater the detail on the character's personality
and background the harder it is to find more than 50-75 points of disadds
that fit the character. 150 points is a near impossibility. If I don't take
the time to come up with some sort of background and such it's a lot easier
to pick them. Pull out the standards, yadda, yadda, yadda. Now I try to
keep my character within 50-100 of base cost. Anyway, you were correct in
assuming that I was looking for examples. Thanks. I'll file them away for
future reference.

Laterz,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Manji

[comments welcome on the design.  This is going to go to Dark Horse Comics
once it checks out]

MANJI

Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes
15	STR	5	12-	200kg; 3d6
20	DEX	30	13-	OCV: 7 / DCV: 7
23	CON	26	13-	
13/33	BODY	6	12-/16-	
13	INT	3	12-	PER Roll 12-
18	EGO	16	13-	ECV: 6
20	PRE	10	13-	PRE Attack: 4d6
8	COM	-1	11-	
8	PD	5		Total: 8 PD
6	ED	2		Total: 6 ED
6	SPD	30		Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
8	REC	2		
50	END	2		
31	STUN	0		
Total Characteristics Cost: 136

Movement:	Running: 6" / 12"
		Swimming: 2" / 4"

Cost	Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
6	Combat Skill Levels: +2 with Kenjutsu
20	Combat Skill Levels: +10 OCV with Final Strike
1	Martial Arts: Kenjutsu; use Art with swords and other 'blade'
weapons
	Maneuver		OCV	DCV	Damage
4	Bind			+1	+0	35 STR Bind
4	Block			+2	+2	Block, Abort
4	Evade			+0	+5	Dodge vs All; Abort
4	Disarm			-1	+1	35 STR Disarm
4	Lightining Stroke	+2	+0	Weapon +2 DC
5	Running Stroke		+1	+0	Weapon +1 DC +v/5; Full Move
5	Sacrifice Stroke	+1	-2	Weapon +3 DC
5	Slashing Stroke		-2	+1	Weapon +3 DC
5	Takeaway		+0	+0	Grab Weapon; 35 STR to Takeaway
8	Two Damage Classes with Kenjutsu

Kenjutsu Powers:
26	Final Strike: HKA: 2d6, Autofire 10 (+3/4), Full Phase (-1/2),
	OIF: Any Bladed Weapon (-1/2), END 30
8	Missle Deflection: Thrown Objects, +6 to Roll, OAF: 'shuriken'

Kessen-Chu Powers:
20	Immortal Body: +20 BODY, Invisible Power Effects: Sight (+1/2),
	Only to stave off point of death (-2)
10	High Pain Threshold: Damage Reduction: 1/4 Energy, Resistant, 
	Stun Only (-1/2)
20	High Pain Threshold: Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, 
	Stun Only (-1/2)
15	Rapid Healing: Does Not Bleed
3	Immortal Body: Life Support: Immune to Aging
8	Rapid Healing: Regeneration: 1 BODY per minute (-1/4), Cannot
	regrow lost limbs, can reconnect severed limbs (-0)

Equipment:
96	12 Blades Variable Power Pool: 60 Point Pool
	No Skill Roll (+1), Can Change Powers as 0 Phase Action (+1), 
	Limited SFX: Hand-held Bladed Weapons (-1), OIF: Multiple weapons
	in pool (-1/2)

Kenjutsu Skills:
3	Talent: Ambidexterity
9	Iaijutsu: Fastdraw 16-
5	KS: Analyze Style 14-
5	KS: Kenjutsu 14-
3	Sleight of Hand 13-
4	WF: Chain Weapons, Off Hand, Swords, Thrown Swords

Samurai and Background Skills:
5	AK: Edo 14-
1	High Society 8-
1	Japanese (literate)
2	PS: Samurai 11-
3	Survival 11-
3	Stealth 13-
3	Streetwise 13-
3	Tactics 12-
331	Total Powers & Skills Cost
467	Total Character Cost

100+	Disadvantages
	Distinctive Features:
5	Black and white kimono / Manji insignia (EC, Noticed)
10	Scarred face / one eye (Conc, Noticed)
20	DNPC: Rin Asano (Norm) 14-
	Hunted: 
10	Assorted people (he's a wanted criminal) (AsPow) 8-
15	Kagehisa Anotsu and the Itto-ryu (AsPow) 11-
10	Physical Limitation: One Eye (I, G)
	Psychological Limitation:
15	Cynical and world weary (VC, M)
15	Wants to die (C, S)
15	Vow - to kill 1000 evil men (C, S)
15	Reputation: Manji, the 100 Men/12 Blades Killer (Ext) 11-
237	Experience
467	Total Disadvantage Points

Designers Notes:
Manji is the foremost of the two main characters in Hiroaki Samura's
samurai fantasy "Blade of the Immortal".  A former samurai in the service
of Lord Horii Shigenobu, Manji became disillusioned with his life and the
code of the samurai after he discovered that that criminals he had been
killing on Horii's orders were really farmers trying to contact the local
authorities to inform them of Horii's misuse of taxes.  Manji killed Horii
in return, and then killed 99 police officers who attempted to bring him
in.  Finally, Manji killed Saito Tatsumasa, right in front of Saito's
wife, Machi... who just so happened to be Manji's little sister.

At some point after this incident, Manji encountered Yaobikuni, who fed
Manji the Kessen-Chu to make him immortal.  Now, unable to be killed,
Manji felt he was more monster than man.  He also felt his skills
degrading, as he realized he couldn't be killed in a fight, and thus
didn't need to fight a well as he had before.  

After killing the fake priest Gyobutsu 'Johnny', Manji ran afoul of the
Shinsen-gumi, "the world's baddest ronin gang".  Their leader, Shido
Hishiyasu, killed Machi in revenge for the death of Johnny (who was his
brother).  Unfortunately for Shido and the rest of the Shinsen-gumi, Manji
then cut all of them down.  Upon returning to Yaobikuni, he made her a
deal.  He'd kill 1000 evil men as penance for the 100 innocent lives he
took, and in return, she'd give him the release of his own death.  

Description:
Manji looks to stand about 6' tall with a thin, rangy build.  He is
heavily scarred from his many battles that he fought before he was
infested with the Kessen-Chu, and has three prominent scars on his face.
One runs across both cheeks and the bridge o his nose, another runs along
his forehead, and the third is vertical, run through his right eye (which
is blind).  Manji's hair is a short disarrayed mess worn in the
traditional top-knot.

Manji always dresses in a two-color kimono.  The right half is white with
black trim, while the left half is black with white trim.  His belt is
white.  On the back of the kimono is a large sauvastika (or 'manji') in
contrasting colors to the base color of the kimono (ie. on the white half,
the manji is black, and white on the black half).  It is an important note
that this device is *not* a swastika and is nothing to do with the Nazi
party.

Powers Notes:
Manji is a master swordsman, and is very skilled in the art of Kenjutsu.
His DEX and SPD are meant to reflect this.  It's worth noting that his DEX
could be higher, but was made only a 20 to simulate the 'sloppy sword'
work; the same with his skill levels with Kenjutsu.  He only has tow, as
opposed to the four (or more) he hay have had a few years ago.  At his
prime, Manji probably had a 24 to 26 DEX and four levels in Kenjutsu.  As
a side note, the average swordsman in Blade is probably only DEX 13-15 and
SPD 3, with no skill levels in Kenjutsu.  

Manji's primary power is his swords, of which he carries about 12 or so.
Most are kept tucked inside his kimono (impossible yes, but this *is* a
fantasy), while two katana are thrust though his belt.  The power pool is
meant to simulate all the different bladed weapons he can carry.  Early on
in the "Cry of the Worm" collection, we see all of these weapons laid out
for sharpening, thus giving one a good idea of what sort of weapons there
are.  Most of them are simple 1d6 or 1d6+1 HKAs.  Looking at that page, we
see the following (working from right to left):

Sword with forked blade: This is probably a 1 1/2d6 HKA, with Reduced
Penetration.  The split blade would help to Bind of Disarm someone, so one
could but it with +2 OCV, only for Bind, Disarm.
Small knife: a simple 1/d6 HKA.  Possibly throwable (give it Usable at
Range for +1/2)
Two long-bladed swords with a secondary blade: These weapons look like the
Japanese jitte, except with blades instead of tines.  The are probably
1d6+1 HKAs with +2 OCV for Bind, Block, Disarm and Takeaway.  They are
favorites of Manji's, and have holes through the hilts to allow him to
spin them at great speed.
Small knife with a hooked blade: this weapon has a long stabbing point and
a secondary hook to one side.  It's a basic 1d6-1 HKA.  The long point may
make it an Armor Piercing weapon.  Manji has used the hooked side to keep
him up in a tree at one point.  He has also thrown this blade.
Two sickle-shaped weapons connected by a short chain: This weapon looks
like a nunchaku with blades added to the striking shafts.  
Long blade with hooks: this is a basic 1d6 HKA.  The hooks make wounds
painful, so give it a +1 STUN multiplier as well.
Long blade with 'points': this 1d6+1 HKA tapers in and out, producing a
series of equally spaced points along it's length.  It's possible that
this blade design is meant to produce terrible wounds (+1 STUN).
Short blade: possible the most mundane weapon in the picture, this is a
simple 1d6-1 HKA.

Manji also carries two katana.  These weapons are capable for doing much
more damage than a real katana ever could (such as cutting up Master
Sori's gate), and should be considered 2d6 HKA weapons.  

Along with his 12 Blades, Manji (and numerous other characters in the
series) is capable of generating a bloody and gruesome 'final strike'
attack that reduces his target to so many bloody chunks.  This is has been
bought as an Autofire attack, with 10 shots.  Technically, Manji can use
anywhere from 2 to 10, and often settles on 5.  The extreme END cost (30)
shows why it is only used as a weapon of last resort.  Note that Manji can
(and has) used all 12 blades to pull this attack off, switching from blade
to blade for each strike.  This should be considered just part of the
special-effect of this attack.

On top of his sword skills, Manji has the power of the Kessen-Chu, or
'holy blood worms'.  These creatures are what keep him alive even after he
has been hacked virtually to pieces (such as in his fight with the
Shinsen-gumi).  They will repair almost any wound, and can even reattach
lost limbs.  It seems likely that the worms cannot rebuild lost limbs, so
if someone severed Manji's hand and then destroyed that limb, he'd be out
of luck.  Although the worms render Manji immortal and very hard to kill,
he is no were as indestructible as Yakumo the Wu from 3x3 Eyes (who is
completely unkillable and able to regenerate from even total body
destruction).  Manji still needs to breathe and eat, and can be burned to
ashes.  You can also kill him be severing his head (thus depriving his
brain of oxygen) or cutting him up into really *small* chunks.  

Note that Manji has Damage Reduction.  This makes sense, as he has taken a
number of crippling hits and still remained conscious.  He also has 'Does
not bleed', which is a slight misnomer.  Manji bleeds all right, he just
doesn't loose any additional Body if reduced to below 0.  Manji's extra
Body serve no other purpose that to keep him from getting killed.  With 13
BODY, you would have to reduce Manji to -13 to kill him. His additional
Body makes that -33.  The Invisible Power Effects represents the fact that
although he may be a bloody mess (and look dead), he's not.

Manji's skills are meant to reflect things we've seen in the manga.
Although he is a samurai (or was) we have yet to see Manji demonstrate any
of the classic arts of the samurai (such as archery, poetry, riding, skill
with the tea ceremony and so on).

Disadvantages Notes:
Most of Manji's disadvantages are pretty self-explanatory.  He wears his
distinctive black and white kimono at all time.  His scarred face is hard
to miss (Yaobikuni writes that he "looks like he was born under a bad
sign").  As Rin's bodyguard, it's his duty to protect her, a task that can
be very difficult at times.  Manji is still wanted for the deaths of Horii
Shigenobu and 100 police officers.  Although the Itto-ryo are not actively
looking for him, they are under orders to cut Manji down if they encounter
him.  Manji is also missing an eye, which means that he should suffer
sight perception minuses if anyone comes up on his 'blind side'.
Suggested combat modifiers should -1 OCV in HTH and -3 Ranged. 

Manji's most telling point is his current state of mind.  Manji has become
a bitter, world-weary cynic, who recognizes the disparity between the
samurai ideal and what happens in the real world.  Disgusted with the
actions of his lord, Manji killed him, instead of doing the 'proper' thing
and serving him faithfully, thus proving his (Manji's) honor as a worthy
samurai.  He has, to an extend, become disgusted with the willingness of
the samurai to die for the cause, no matter how pointless that cause may
be.  His new-found cynical outlook has made him somewhat less than civil
and gracious, such that Master Sori wonders if Manji was abandoned as a
child and raised by monkeys.  Manji is also disgusted with his current
state.  He wants to die, to be rid of what he sees is a curse.  Thus, he
revels in a good fight, telling Kuro that "let us two-handed heretics of
the sword go at it like wildmen and make the sky rain blood".  He also
informs Magatsu Taito "This is the way to fight!".  This 'death-wish' is
tempered however by his duty as Rin's bodyguard, as well as his vow... to
kill 1000 evil men as restitution for killing 100 good men.  Only then
will Yaobikuni allow him to die.

(Manji created by Hiroaki Samura, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:32:19 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 01:03 PM 7/27/98 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>Actually I find that the greater the detail on the character's personality
>and background the harder it is to find more than 50-75 points of disadds
>that fit the character. 150 points is a near impossibility. If I don't take
>the time to come up with some sort of background and such it's a lot easier
>to pick them. Pull out the standards, yadda, yadda, yadda. 


Odd.  I don't know why that would be the case.  In fact, I often
find that I have to program my spreadsheet to simply ignore all
the disads past 150.

Sure, you could come up with 100-150 points of standard disads.
But it gets pretty old, and you wind up not playing any of the
disadvantages (which are what make the character interesting).

Figure out where the character comes from.  Did he (does he) 
have family (DNPC)?  What were the defining moments in his life
(Psych)?  Did the powers come from some kind of accident (Phys)?
Did his appearance change because of it (Features)?  What made
him decide to be a hero (More Psych lims)?  Who has he pissed 
off along the way (Hunted)?  And those are the easy ones.

Of course, I do find that the downside to this method of character
creation is that the character background forces me to spend a lot
of points on skills.  :)
======================  =================================================
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead
======================  =================================================

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:48:04 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 10:52 AM 7/27/1998 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> >I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
>> >after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly.
>> 
>>    In light of Dr Nuncheon's point, though, they wouldn't be laughing for
>> long.... (or all the way to the intensive care unit).
>
>Eh? Is my name being taken in vain?  I didn't thinK i was even /in/ this
>thread...

   Didn't you say something about Blitzen being an alternate name for Thor,
and probably as tough as a Marine MP's K-9 pit bull?  (My simile.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:50:05 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 08:44 AM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lockie wrote:
>
><snip follower stuff>
>
>> no, he cost 10 points, he has 1000
>
>Last I checked, 10 points got you a 50 pt follower.  It's a 1:5 ratio, not 
>1:100.
>
>J
>
>Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
>Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj
>
That is how it appears in the BBB.  1:5

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:57:51 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 08:05 AM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>- Take a mystery Hunted.  They're fun and challenging, and the GM
>  gets to do all the work.  <snip>
Of course, that only works if your GM wnats to do the work.  My GM wants to
ban hunteds because the GM does all the work.

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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:17:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.

	The SFX of the Flight is Wings.
	The wings are a part of the character, and as such are
Restrainable.
	The design of the wings are such as they become less efficent with
a greater payload, forcing the character to fly slower with a greater
burden.  In addition, the character can not carry more than casual STR.
	My question is as follows:
	The above limits on the powers are best represented as a
Limitations (such as a Limited Power) or a Physical Limitations.  If
either, how many points are each worth.
	Due to the fact the amoount of flight is limited by the ammount of
weight carried, there is a certain STR capacity/inches of Flight ratio to
be considered, for which I know of no mechanic in HERO.


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:18:40 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

At 11:48 AM 7/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 10:52 AM 7/27/1998 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>>> >I don't know. Donner, and Blitzen might get a few laughs being named 
>>> >after Santa's Rain Deer, the heroes would rib them mercilessly.
>>> 
>>>    In light of Dr Nuncheon's point, though, they wouldn't be laughing for
>>> long.... (or all the way to the intensive care unit).
>>
>>Eh? Is my name being taken in vain?  I didn't thinK i was even /in/ this
>>thread...
>
>   Didn't you say something about Blitzen being an alternate name for Thor,
>and probably as tough as a Marine MP's K-9 pit bull?  (My simile.)
>---
And the Author is:(drumroll please)
Michael Surbrook !

Not, alas, Dr.Nuncheon.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:24:03 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

At 03:17 PM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
>> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
>> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
>
>	The SFX of the Flight is Wings.
>	The wings are a part of the character, and as such are
>Restrainable.
>	The design of the wings are such as they become less efficent with
>a greater payload, forcing the character to fly slower with a greater
>burden.  In addition, the character can not carry more than casual STR.
>	My question is as follows:
>	The above limits on the powers are best represented as a
>Limitations (such as a Limited Power) or a Physical Limitations.  If
>either, how many points are each worth.
>	Due to the fact the amoount of flight is limited by the ammount of
>weight carried, there is a certain STR capacity/inches of Flight ratio to
>be considered, for which I know of no mechanic in HERO.
>
I got your original question, but alas can offer no help.  So I changed the
topic and raised my question:
If I tie this guy up, like wrapped round and round with rope, can he fly?
Superman can.  If the answer is "No, he has to spread his wings to fly,"
then he deserves some points.  Powered armor is an OIF, so I'd say wings
are too.  But if that causes problems howabout Gestures.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:56:06 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Greenwade writes:

>    The problem with looking at acceleration as a function of Skill Levels
> is that even if they're possessed by the driver, they'd affect the vehicle,
> just as the driver's Skill Levels would affect the maneuvering and, to an
> extent, the turn mode.

But the driver's skill levels *DON'T* affect the vehicle's Turn Mode.

Look at it this way.  A Chevrolet Corvette has a few inherent Turn Mode
skill levels, but most Corvette owners never use them, are never driving in
conditions where they could, and few are skilled enough to pull off a power
slide without spinning out.  But you put someone like Dave Marcis behind
the wheel and put him on a high-speed oval track, you better believe he can
get everything out of the car it can possibly give.  But the thing is,
Dave's skill is not adding to the car's maneuverability.  Put Dave inside a
Neon, he will not be powering around turns like he would in the 'vette.
Neon cannot do it, regardless of the driver's skill.

Another example, F-20 Tigershark, infamous for its fatal airshow accidents.
When the Air Force attempted to duplicate the conditions that lead to the
F-20 crashes, they found they could not.  T-38 Talon, which is physicaly
similar to F-20, does not "snap" as quickly as F-20 does, and thus does not
generate the kind of gs that result in gLOC that the F-20 was prone to do.
No pilot, not matter how good, can get 10+ gs out of T-30; the plane cannot
do it.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
                                    \ head.

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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:48:17 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.


I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
OIF.

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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:15:45 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: WWII Villians

From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>


>>The allies used a dead body of an officer who dies of pneumonia, to fake
>>the death of a courier off the coast of Spain (or Portugual, forget
>which).
>> The "courier" had fake notes placing the planned Normandy invasion in
>>Calias.
>
>I believe you're thinking of Operation Mincemeat.  The corpse was
>actually a civilian, but got the "cover identity" of Major Martin, Royal
>Marines.  He was floated ashore in Spain with papers indicating that the
>Allies were going to attack Sicily next (they were really going to attack
>Sardinia).  Last time I was in a Barnes and Nobels, "The Man Who Never
>Was" was back in print -- it's a bit dated, but it describes the whole
>operation.


I always liked the story myself. They needed a body with fluid in his lungs,
so they used a pneumonia victim. The coroner who was asked to confirm that
the body would pass as a drowning victim stated that a truly skilled
forensic specialist such as himself might discover the fraud, but that no
one in Spain was as good as he was.

Filksinger


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:08:30 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

At 03:48 PM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
>> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
>> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
>
>
>I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
>Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
>legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
>OIF.
>
Well,
I always thought that OIF Legs was assumed in the cost of Running.

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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:40:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

On 27 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Bob Greenwade writes:
> 
> >    The problem with looking at acceleration as a function of Skill Levels
> > is that even if they're possessed by the driver, they'd affect the vehicle,
> > just as the driver's Skill Levels would affect the maneuvering and, to an
> > extent, the turn mode.
> 
> But the driver's skill levels *DON'T* affect the vehicle's Turn Mode.
> 
> Look at it this way.  A Chevrolet Corvette has a few inherent Turn Mode
> skill levels, but most Corvette owners never use them,
<snip>
> Dave's skill is not adding to the car's maneuverability.  Put Dave inside a
> Neon, he will not be powering around turns like he would in the 'vette.
> Neon cannot do it, regardless of the driver's skill.

OTOH, Dave /can/ get more out of the 'vette's performance than say, me,
and the difference between Dave and I is?  Skill level.

So, both the driver's skill /and/ the inherent maneuverability of the car
(car's 'skill levels') affect driving rolls.

Perhaps what is needed here is an optional rule:

For realistic campaigns, you cannot more than double the vehicle's
inherent maneuverability bonus (i.e. the car's skill levels) by using your
own.

In cinematic campaigns, of course, this rule can be chucked.

This would mean that:

Corvettes are more maneuverable than Neons
Dave can make tighter turns and at higher speeds than I can without losing
control

...both of which are as they should be.


Another idea:  The car buys a few skill levels wiith 'RSR: Combat
Driving'.  Most people have no CD or have it at maybe 8-...professional
drivers would of course be much higher, and could use those extra skill
levels more effectively. 

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:46:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
> > Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
> > binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
> 
> I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
> Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
> legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
> OIF.


Generally, I've seen them given a 'Restrainable (-1/2)' limitation.  I
think its from HSA1.  

I think the drawbacks for having wings are big enough to warrant an actual
limitation, rather than just being SFX.  You need a certain amount of
space to take off and land, you can't fly if you're tied
up/entangled/whatever...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From Arknight1@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:50:35 EDT
From: Arknight1@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

Actually, from everything I've seen and heard, Wings is a Limited Power.

Limited Power: Wings(Restrainable)  for a -1/2  I believe.  That way, they
aren't a Focus, and can't be removed, but they can still be grabbed and
entangled and such.

TC

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From lizard@mrlizard.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:16:32 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

At 03:48 PM 7/27/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
>> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
>> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
>
>
>I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
>Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
>legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
>OIF.
>
But you could take the Restrainable disad from Almanac I, which was
specifically designed to cover wings.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:52:48 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nuncheon  writes:

> OTOH, Dave /can/ get more out of the 'vette's performance than say, me,
> and the difference between Dave and I is?  Skill level.

Those are Dave's skill levels, not the car's, and they apply to his Combat
Driving skill, not the vehicle's Turn Mode.  No matter how skilled Dave is,
he can never get the Turn Mode lower than the minimum the vechicle is
capable of sustaining.  If he tries to go beyond that point, he will spin
out.

> So, both the driver's skill /and/ the inherent maneuverability of the car
> (car's 'skill levels') affect driving rolls.

The Combat Driving Skill might affect Turn Mode skill levels, but Turn Mode
and Combat Driving will not affect each other.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ 
                                    \ 

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:57:41 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

At 04:08 PM 7/27/1998 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>At 03:48 PM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
>>> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
>>> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
>>
>>I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
>>Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
>>legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
>>OIF.
>>
>Well,
>I always thought that OIF Legs was assumed in the cost of Running.

   No, it's more like Gestures.  If it was Focus, you'd be able to take his
legs away, and he'd be able to go get them back or replace them, all
without major surgery.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:00:02 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Winged Flight

At 03:48 PM 7/27/1998 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, geoff heald wrote:
>> Are wings a focus, or what?  If the PC can be prevented from flying by
>> binding his wings, that's an OIF, not SFX.
>
>
>I disagree.  If the wings can be REMOVED, then it's an OIF.  
>Otherwise, its just a special effect.  You can bind a character's
>legs to keep him from running, but that doesn't make his legs an
>OIF.

   Correct.
   Hero System Almanac I offered a new -1/2 Limitation, "Restrainable,"
which basically means that the Power can be stopped with a Grab or
Entangle, but can't be removed.  This (or something like it) apparently has
some pretty wide-spread support, and will probably be in Hero5 (just a
speculation on that, though).
   Personally, I prefer to just enforce something along the lines of
Gestures, which does pretty close to (if not exactly) the same thing.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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______________________________________________________________________________



From KWilson411@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:39:29 EDT
From: KWilson411@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

>> >>Does the expression "Black Hole, from which nothing, not even light,
>> >>can escape" mean anything to you?
>> >
>> >> -Sam
>> >
>> >
>> >Under the new theories of Quantum physics "things" for brief periods
oftime
>> >can exceed the speed of light "sort of" and can and do therefore escape
>. >black holes.
>. >
>> >Alan
>> Under the "old" theories of quantum physics, a black hole can appear to be
>> giving off radiation.  In short, the idea is that occasionally two opposite
>> particles just "blink" into existance.  Normally, they would cancel each
>> other out (this is _not_ matter vs antimatter), but a black hole could suck
>> one in and the other would escape.  It gets weirder from here.

>heyyy. . isn't the situation in which that partical/antiparticle thing occurs
>more common in that particular area for some reason? or somehting. . 
>wouldn't that lead to cool sfx? man i gotta re-read ABHOT. . 

 Ahem,  According to all the info I've recieved, the particles in question are
very small and exist and dissappear almost instantaneously.  This happens
*EVERYWHERE* all the time but have no apparent effect on the rest of the
universe.  Except for the case of the black holes in which only one of the
particles in question might be trapped and the two do not self annihilate back
into nothingness.  Some of the particles in question could actually (according
to one source) have a negative mass and therefore have an anti-gravity effect.
Since this is at the moment still a theory and not proven fact <grin> its all
still up for grabs!!
Thank you for listening

Ken

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:39:47 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Different Disads

> From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
> As long as we're talking characters here how about something different in
> the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there is
> going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID, Psych
> Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
> have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good old
> standards?
> 
> Another thing which might be useful are some different ways people use
for
> determining the appropriate disads for their characters.

Well, this probably isn't terribly original to this list, but it has
certainly caused no end of fun in our campaign:  Sunny the Gnome has Psych:
Chronic Cheerful Disposition, frequent, total.  She always sees the silver
lining (and sometimes misses the cloud).  It probably isn't quite worth the
20 points she got for it, as it isn't that big of a disadvantage.  However,
the player plays Sunny to the hilt, which means that she drives the other
player's nuts.  That sort of makes up for all the disadvantages they've had
over the years that weren't quite worth the points.  Having seen both in
action now, I have to say that this is much funnier than the typical
halfling kleptomaniac :-)
 

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______________________________________________________________________________



From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:12:57 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

>No pilot, not matter how good, can get 10+ gs out of T-30; the plane cannot
>do it.


No, but a bad pilot could.  :-)

Alan



______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:10:54 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----Original Message-----
From: KWilson411@aol.com <KWilson411@aol.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Question on powers


>>> >>Does the expression "Black Hole, from which nothing, not even light,
>>> >>can escape" mean anything to you?
>>> >
>>> >> -Sam
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Under the new theories of Quantum physics "things" for brief periods
>oftime
>>> >can exceed the speed of light "sort of" and can and do therefore escape
>>. >black holes.
>>. >
>>> >Alan
>>> Under the "old" theories of quantum physics, a black hole can appear to
be
>>> giving off radiation.  In short, the idea is that occasionally two
opposite
>>> particles just "blink" into existance.  Normally, they would cancel each
>>> other out (this is _not_ matter vs antimatter), but a black hole could
suck
>>> one in and the other would escape.  It gets weirder from here.
>
>>heyyy. . isn't the situation in which that partical/antiparticle thing
occurs
>>more common in that particular area for some reason? or somehting. .
>>wouldn't that lead to cool sfx? man i gotta re-read ABHOT. .
>
> Ahem,  According to all the info I've recieved, the particles in question
are
>very small and exist and dissappear almost instantaneously.  This happens
>*EVERYWHERE* all the time but have no apparent effect on the rest of the
>universe.  Except for the case of the black holes in which only one of the
>particles in question might be trapped and the two do not self annihilate
back
>into nothingness.  Some of the particles in question could actually
(according
>to one source) have a negative mass and therefore have an anti-gravity
effect.
>Since this is at the moment still a theory and not proven fact <grin> its
all
>still up for grabs!!
>Thank you for listening
>
>Ken


Not necessarily small, just subatomic. ;-)

I don't think in the science of physics there are any proven facts.  The
above theory is about 24 years old and is going to be a theory for the
foreseeable future.


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______________________________________________________________________________



From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:12:42 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with


----------
> From: Dr. Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com>
> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 11:44 PM
> 
> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lockie wrote:
> 
> <snip follower stuff>
> 
> > no, he cost 10 points, he has 1000
> 
> Last I checked, 10 points got you a 50 pt follower.  It's a 1:5 ratio,
not 
> 1:100.
> 


last time i checked, 100% damage reduction was a bad joke. 

> J
> 
> Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
> Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj

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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:09:40 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Powers/power sets that HERO dosen't do well (or can't doatall)

> >>What about molten magma? Where do yoiu draw the line? In the end 
> >>it's all about drawing the line, and that's what gm calls and plot
devices
> >>are 
> >>for. It's NOT what game mechanics are for. 
> 
> Well I don't know about that, I think there are times when it should be
> mechanic based and times when it should be a gm call.
> 

yes, but i was speaking specifically as relating to indestructable folk 


> >
> >   Actually, it's precisely what game mechanics are for.  The fire
> >elemental in the example I deleted would take no damage from molten
magma,
> >from evaporated rock, or from the heart of a sun.  It's a fire
elemental.
> 
> Well you do have to ask about the physical force of magma and the
> gravitational force as it enters the sun but fair enough.
> 
> Also what about a more powerful elemental?


like i said, it'a  gm call. 

> >>Ok, from that logic then all game balance should be thrown out the
window,
> 
> Look, I'm sorry to say this but there are a _heap_ of ways you can create
a
> completely overpowered character in Champions, you might want to look at
> what you can do with a brick for 250 points if you pump dex up reasonably
> high. 
> The price Champions & Hero pay for their versatility is the ability to
> create something (either deliberately or accidently) overpowered to the
> extreme.
> 

no, the price paid is the 'complexity' of the character
creation system. And just becasue cheese abounds, does not mean
we should add more. . 


> >>and 
> >>most new players would end up in monty haul faster that you can
recalibrate
> >>your one-shot temporal destabiliser.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't agree there. I doubt that Hero will ever drag too many
> people straight in off the street with no roleplaying experience. Hell, I
> owned it for 3 years before I played it and I've been roleplaying for 10
> years now because the rules are rather daunting. 
> 
> As such most people will be sensible enough to pay attention to the
> comments on the dangers etc of various powers.
> 

yes, within *limits*


> 
> I don't know, the ability to turn someone into a Goldfish is rather
> powerful for mine, ditto summoning Thor....
> 

is thor invunerable? is he cooerative? and you can make me a goldfish as
easily
as you can blow me away. . 

> >> If you want something in your game, add it.
> >>don't 
> >>expect publishers to threaten the structural integrity of their game
just
> >>to 
> >>answer your particular requirements.
> >
> >   You think the current stop-sign powers are less "beardy" than
mechanical
> >invulnerability?  Pesonally, I'd rather deal with Mr. Lucky than with
> >someone who can teleport his enemies into space (which can be done
rather
> >easily for the same 240 points it cost Mr. Lucky for that 100%DR).

yes, and you have the right to object to that, and see those objections 
met with discussion. . 

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:46:58 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl D. Cravens <ravenpub@southwind.net>
Newsgroups: list.champ
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers


>If 100 points of Running is worth 80 points with a Turn Mode added, then
>80 points of Flight is worth 100 points with the Turn Mode removed.
>
>This of course assumes that you believe that trading three-dimensional
>movement for lack of a turn mode is an equal trade.

Even If I believe that assumption, it doesn't change the fact that if a
Limitation of a specific value is applied to one power it "saves" a
character X amount of points.  An Advantage of the same value applied to a
different power "costs" a character X+ amount of points.

For example:  If I buy a 45 point RKA and put No Range -1/2 on it, I pay 30
points for that power.  If I buy a 45 point HKA and put Ranged +1/2 on it, I
pay 68 points for that power.  I pay 23 points extra for a +1/2 Advantage, I
save only 15 points for -1/2 Limitation.

Only if I equalize my Advantages and Limitations on each power as you are
trying to do above do I "cancel" out the savings and overages and come up
with the idea that Advantages and Limitations of the same magnitude are
equal in effect.

My point is that the existence of a Limitation that does the opposite of
what you want, isn't, in and of itself, justification for changing the sign
and reversing the effect and calling it an Advantage.  In fact, sometimes
this would be blatantly bad, although I don't think it is in this case.  If
you don't agree, how would you feel about a character who takes Doesn't
Affect Desolid for -1/2?

I think Bob's reply to my post is a good reason for his choice of a +1/4 No
Turn Mode modifier.  I think I might have misread a post and thought that
the only reason was the -1/4 Turn Mode from Running.  I haven't looked
closely at the math but it sounds good.

Alan


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______________________________________________________________________________



From llwatts@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:19:46 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

>As long as we're talking characters here how about something different
in
>the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there
is
>going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID,
Psych
>Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
>have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good
old
>standards?

One of my alien supers came from a planet with a dimmer sun than ours (I
was taking astronomy at the time), so I gave her a couple plusses to her
sight PER rolls and a Vulnerability to Flash attacks, both based off "her
eyes are adapted to work in poor lighting".  I'm running a vigilante
currently who is allergic to penicillin (Susceptability), and can't wear
her Medic Alert tag in hero ID because she thinks the police could trace
her by it (she took them as a Hunted).  (BTW, _do_ Medic Alert tags have
ID numbers or codes on them?)

I've never done much with Accidental Change, but then I usually don't run
characters with Multiform or Instant Change.  Berserks are, IMHO, too
risk, but a carefully chosen Enraged can help show what a character
really hates.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From ravenpub@southwind.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:13:25 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters
Newsgroups: list.champ

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:00:55 -0700, "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> wrote:
>"Adjusting the campaign" to accomodate one player who is out-of-step
>with both the GM and the other players is hardly an attractive or

He implied that all of the characters were out of step with the
campaign.  His last paragraph implied that all of the characters were
inappropriately weak.  Rereading that, I see I may have misunderstood
it.  My apologies to Steve(?) if this is the case.

>sensible option.  As for catching it beforehand, Steve's post contained
>his mea culpas in that regard.  I don't know *any* Hero GM who has not,
>on occasion, misread a character sheet that some player submitted and
>ended up with a result that did not fit the campaign well.

But when this happens the best thing is to do something about it.  It's
better to rewrite a character mid-stream than to suffer with a character
that doesn't work in the game.  Character sheets aren't necessarily set
in stone once the game starts.

>> From where I sit as a GM, I see the problem as being your fault...
>> something had to change to make the campaign viable but you didn't do
>> anything to cause a change.
>
>Err...where do you get that from?  Nothing in the original post said a
>thing about the campaigns' having become non-viable.  One or two

"I should have killed them all."  "They were too weak."  Sounds
non-viable without modification on one side or the other to me.

>Nevertheless, I have had people come up with non-viable designs, and have
>generally found that they refuse to listen, and express disappointment
>that I am interfering with the brilliance of their grand vision.  I have
>even found this while attempting to help a neophyte player come up with a
>character for another GM's campaign.  Let me illustrate one player's
>exploits with three characters:

But this was not explained to be the case.  He didn't say that he
discussed the characters with the players... he said they designed weak
characters and he should have killed them all off so that the next
characters would be smarter.  This, to me, implies a lack of
communication and an unwillingness to adapt the the campaign to the
characters or to discuss the characters to adapt them to the campaign.

>everyone else's.  I warned her that this character design was
>offense-poor, but she insisted and would not listen.  Ultimately, the GM
>came in with a mandatory re-design, but she complained because he took
>away her Martial Arts to pay for some offensive powers that were usable.

It's a shame that the game can't be arranged to let someone play the
concept they want to play just because the concept is underpowered.
There are other things to do than combat.  Of course, if they *want*
spotlight time in combat, they're going to have to play something that's
going to see reasonable combat time.  (I no longer believe that it's
necessary for all the characters to be even close on point value.)

>campaign where Mental Defense was rare; nevertheless, she insisted that
>the character could do nothing useful and retired the character.

On the other hand, if the character just doesn't do what the player
wants when designed the way the player wanted, there's not much help for
that but maybe experience.  The player can't design one thing and expect
another.

>She devised another character whose powers work only at night.  I refused
>to accept the character, on the obvious grounds stated in the book.  She

Did this player ever create a NASA scientist that invented a space
battlesuit that used sonic powers (in vacuum?) which NASA had her (the
head researcher) test herself in space, and then let her keep the suit
when the program was scrapped?  (Because the sonic flight didn't work
well in vacuum I guess.)  And when you pointed out the minor
inconsistancies in this plan, she started crying about how everyone
picks on her all the time and then dropped out of the game?

>battles in which she cannot participate, because her follower dare not
>and her main character cannot.  She always complains to be afterwards
>about them.  Sigh!

Some people are slow to learn I guess.

Again, my apologies to Steve for my assumptions and harsh tone...  I
must have been in an arguing mood after some of the acceleration thing
and it carried over improperly.  Steve, write back and tell me I'm a
jerk anyway, so I know you saw this.  Otherwise I'll have to write you a
grovelling email directly.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!

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______________________________________________________________________________



From ravenpub@southwind.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:24:58 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On 26 Jul 1998 20:10:29 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>> I'm not arguing that accleration can't be part of the race car...  I'm
>> arguing that acceleration *must* be part of the race car.  It's not
>> something the *character* can buy and take from race car to race car.
>
>No, it is something tied to the particular car.  Just as the Viper is more
>maneuverable than a Neon, it can accelerate much faster than a Neon.  There
>is no question about it.  Zero to sixty, Viper wins.

I'm not sure why you're insisting on the faster-car-wins argument...
I've never disagreed here.  And I really don't see why you're
apparently disagreeing ("No...") by restating what I just said.

>Maneuverability is represented with skill levels with a movement form to
>reduce the Turn Mode for that movement form.  It is just a logical leap
>from to the concept of skill levels also being able to modify the
>acceleration of a vehicle.  The skill levels are not posessed by the
>driver, they are posessed by the vehicle.

And that's why I object to them being skill levels... because skill
levels are something characters can buy and use with multiple foci.
This is something that, it seems to me, is inherent in the *power*.

Skill levels that affect turn mode (while maybe not a great idea in
themselves) is still something that makes at least marginal sense as a
skill... it makes sense that a skilled flyer/pilot/driver can manage to
turn himself/the plane/the car sharper without losing control.  It
doesn't make sense that a skilled flyer/pilot/driver can make
himself/the plane/the car accelerate faster.  (I could probably
formulate an argument for why skill levels shouldn't affect turn mode,
too... making a vehicle turn tighter than its turn mode should run the
risk of losing control, and that really sounds like a Driving/Flying
skill and not multiple plusses in Running/Flight.  If the tighter turn
mode is inherent in the particular instance of the power and not in
somebody's skill to make the vehicle turn tighter, I'd say that there
ought to be a proper power mechanic to do it instead of skill levels.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that the published rules got
changed because in retrospect they were found to be relatively
unacceptable.  Hand Attack is a prime example.)

It's like saying that non-combat multiples should be skills.  If skill
makes the car accelerate faster, why can't skill make the car go faster?

IMO, skills should only be things that *characters* can buy and still
make sense with.  You can always buy them built into foci of course, but
the focus itself really isn't using them... the character is.

Both increased acceleration and decreased turn mode should probably be
modifiers to the movement powers in the way that non-combat multiples
are.

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
My reality check just bounced.

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From ravenpub@southwind.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:58:32 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On 27 Jul 1998 15:56:06 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>But the driver's skill levels *DON'T* affect the vehicle's Turn Mode.

Why not?  They're skill levels, and the Rulesbook says that skill levels
are character abilities.

>Look at it this way.  A Chevrolet Corvette has a few inherent Turn Mode
>skill levels, but most Corvette owners never use them, are never driving in
>conditions where they could, and few are skilled enough to pull off a power
>slide without spinning out.  But you put someone like Dave Marcis behind
>the wheel and put him on a high-speed oval track, you better believe he can
>get everything out of the car it can possibly give.  But the thing is,
>Dave's skill is not adding to the car's maneuverability.  Put Dave inside a
>Neon, he will not be powering around turns like he would in the 'vette.
>Neon cannot do it, regardless of the driver's skill.

This is the very reason that I think these abilities shouldn't be
represnted with skill levels.  Because it makes no sense for the
character to buy them.  Skills are *character* things.

Say that we didn't have a way to make PD resistant... you either bought
PD or you bought Armor, but you couldn't make PD gained through figured
characteristics resistant... and we want to create a mechanic for it.
So we decide to buy skill levels in PD.  Every 1-point skill level in
Physical Defense allows us to make our PD resistant when we want it to
be.  Of course, we can also make the non-resistant PD of that leather
armor resistant too.  Now what's the matter with this picture?  Skill
levels affecting armor doesn't sound quite right.  But it's hardly any
different than skill levels affecting acceleration... it's a
modification of the way the power works bought through the skill
mechanism.

>Another example, F-20 Tigershark, infamous for its fatal airshow accidents.
>When the Air Force attempted to duplicate the conditions that lead to the
>F-20 crashes, they found they could not.  T-38 Talon, which is physicaly
>similar to F-20, does not "snap" as quickly as F-20 does, and thus does not
>generate the kind of gs that result in gLOC that the F-20 was prone to do.
>No pilot, not matter how good, can get 10+ gs out of T-30; the plane cannot
>do it.

Uh-huh.  So explain why the ability to accelerate is best represented
through skill levels instead of a mechanic specifically intended for
increasing acceleration on movement powers.

What you're wanting isn't a skill level.  It's a modifier on a movement
power that you want to fit the skill level cost structure and
descriptive convention for no useful reason.  If a character can't buy
it directly and use it on forms of the movement power he can gain
control of, that is he will only encounter it built into various power
constructs, why do you want it to be a skill?

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Toto, I don't think we're online anymore...

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 28 Jul 1998 00:29:51 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Carl D Cravens writes:

>> But the driver's skill levels *DON'T* affect the vehicle's Turn Mode.

> Why not?  They're skill levels, and the Rulesbook says that skill levels
> are character abilities.

Because Skill Levels with Combat Driving are not Skill Levels with a
vehicle's Turn Mode.

[...]

> This is the very reason that I think these abilities shouldn't be
> represnted with skill levels.  Because it makes no sense for the
> character to buy them.  Skills are *character* things.

Then how do you propose to model the fact that an M-16 is more accurate
than an AK-47?

Skills are no more (or less) "character things" than anything else in the
book.  They are a game mechanic with special effects that are *usually*
character things.  But just because something is usually used for a
particular purpose does not mean that it must always be used that way.  You
do that, you are falling into the trap of using the mechanic's name, rather
than its effect, when trying to model a special effect.

[...]

> Uh-huh.  So explain why the ability to accelerate is best represented
> through skill levels instead of a mechanic specifically intended for
> increasing acceleration on movement powers.

Symmetry.  Skill levels affect one fundamental aspect of movement powers
(lateral velocity) It stands to reason that skill levels should also affect
the other (linear velocity).

Simplicity.  It does not introduce a new game mechanic.  It uses a
mathematically simple variation of an existing game mechanic.

Sanity.  Some normal people can run faster than others, and they can
accelerate faster than others.  But doubling base acceleration, the minimum
level proposed, is absurd in all but a very few circumstances (like using
starting blocks, which are only used for short sprints).  Besides, normals
cannot buy power modifiers on what few powers they can have, but they
certainly can buy skill levels.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:24:03 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weak characters

> From: Carl D. Cravens <ravenpub@southwind.net>
> He implied that all of the characters were out of step with the
> campaign.  His last paragraph implied that all of the characters were
> inappropriately weak.  Rereading that, I see I may have misunderstood
> it.  My apologies to Steve(?) if this is the case.

Just the two characters were weak, and they were in two separate campaigns.
 The first campaign (my first FH campaign) had 18 players, although never
more than 12, and rarely more than 6.  (Yes, I know a first time GM with
that many is ludicrous, but few could be consistent, so we went with who
showed up at a session.  Plus, I had successfully run AD&D with 12 players
for years.)  Raul (the thief) was viable, if his player hadn't insisted on
jumping into hopeless combats (with his WF: Quarterstaff, no less).  Raul's
player graduated and moved on before I could fix it.  We had bigger
problems to fix at the time. Like reining in that 18d6 Mind Control the
Diplomat/Mage had.

The pacifist healer was in the next campaign.  This was one of the best
characters I've ever seen (then or later).  So against my better judgement,
I let the character in.  The other 7 regular players fit the campaign
perfectly, and would not have fit a game that fit the healer, at least not
without a lot of stretching.  Actually, the player still has the character.
 If we ever get a group interested in playing the right kind of game (not
likely, but possible), she might still run her.

> "I should have killed them all."  "They were too weak."  Sounds
> non-viable without modification on one side or the other to me.

Did I say it that way exactly?  I did say that I didn't have the heart to
kill, since it was _partly_ my fault.  However, in hindsight, the group
would have been stronger if I had killed the (weak) characters.  (Or just
let them play as written, instead of bailing them out constantly, which
would have amounted to a death sentence.)

> But this was not explained to be the case.  He didn't say that he
> discussed the characters with the players... he said they designed weak
> characters and he should have killed them all off so that the next
> characters would be smarter.  This, to me, implies a lack of
> communication and an unwillingness to adapt the the campaign to the
> characters or to discuss the characters to adapt them to the campaign.

No way you could have known this, but this group did have to suffer a death
before they improved as players.  It concentrated their minds and helped
them realize that a character dying every now and then was not going to be
the end of the world.  I tried everything I could think off and nothing
worked.  The character death fixed everything very quickly.  Remember, this
is mostly novice role-players we are talking about.

> It's a shame that the game can't be arranged to let someone play the
> concept they want to play just because the concept is underpowered.
> There are other things to do than combat.  Of course, if they *want*
> spotlight time in combat, they're going to have to play something that's
> going to see reasonable combat time.  (I no longer believe that it's
> necessary for all the characters to be even close on point value.)

We have underpowered characters in our games all the time.  My wife plays
the weakest combat character in the group (despite leading in total
points).  But she's only slightly weak, and still sometimes frustrated.  We
have also have a mentalist mage who teleports away from all Melee contact,
even if it costs her half her actions.  But a pacificist in our group?  No
way! 

> Again, my apologies to Steve for my assumptions and harsh tone...  I
> must have been in an arguing mood after some of the acceleration thing
> and it carried over improperly.  Steve, write back and tell me I'm a
> jerk anyway, so I know you saw this.  Otherwise I'll have to write you a
> grovelling email directly.

No problem.  I'm developing a thick skin on this list fitfully, but
rapidly.  I didn't even blink at your response, so I guess I'm up to 10
PD/ED force field, only against email :-)


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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:45:09 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 2:32 PM -0400 7/27/98, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 01:03 PM 7/27/98 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>>Actually I find that the greater the detail on the character's personality
>>and background the harder it is to find more than 50-75 points of disadds
>>that fit the character. 150 points is a near impossibility. If I don't take
>>the time to come up with some sort of background and such it's a lot easier
>>to pick them. Pull out the standards, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
>
>Odd.  I don't know why that would be the case.  In fact, I often
>find that I have to program my spreadsheet to simply ignore all
>the disads past 150.
>

Well, it works something like this. Hero has parents. This could be a disad
except that when the background is finished we find out that Mr. & Mrs.
Hero have retired to Arizona. Even an 8- is stretching it. A girlfriend or
wife is a natural at 8- but I can't see it going much farther than that
unless the relationship is in the first stages in which case they spend a
lot more time together. Call it an 11-. What if the girlfriend or wife is a
homebody though? Doesn't really care to go out, just likes to spend quite
evenings at home. Hero may not even have a girlfriend yet. Depends on the
background.

Ocassionally it's fun to have a really nosey DNPC that seems to get into
all sorts of trouble but I'd still restrict it to an 11-. Frankly I can't
concieve of a 14- DNPC unless it's some kind of fan group or something like
that.

Hunteds and Secret IDs are another area. If the character has had a bit of
a career already then he may have hunteds. It's possible that he's watched
by the local authorities who want to keep a tab on him but if he's new to
the scene he's not likely to have hunteds and the cops are the only ones
who *might* be interested in watching him. For Secret ID, there has to be a
reason to protect his ID. If no one cares or if the character is a Bible
Belt kid moved to the Big City no one knows him or cares who he is.

Anyway, that's the problem with detailed background and disds. Maybe I'm
missing something here. ::Shrug:: You're right about one thing, backgrounds
do require more "fluff" skills and the like. I ususally end up buying
several skills and such that I know I'll never use. Same with powers.

Laterz,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:33:50 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Question on powers

From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
>
<snip>
>
>  Ahem,  According to all the info I've recieved,
> the particles in question are
> very small and exist and dissappear almost
> instantaneously.  This happens
> *EVERYWHERE* all the time but have no apparent
> effect on the rest of the
> universe.  Except for the case of the black holes
> in which only one of the
> particles in question might be trapped and the
> two do not self annihilate back
> into nothingness.  Some of the particles in
> question could actually (according
> to one source) have a negative mass and therefore
> have an anti-gravity effect.
> Since this is at the moment still a theory and
> not proven fact <grin> its all
> still up for grabs!!
> Thank you for listening


Actually, black holes are still theory, though we have
recently found some very solid candidates.

The particles are known as virtual particles. They come into
creation in pairs, and exist for a period of time so short
that they don't violate the laws of the universe. When they
form near a black hole, and one gets trapped and one
doesn't, the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy states
that the mass/energy of the escaping particle has to come
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From somewhere; that somewhere, it is believed, is the black
hole.

Filksinger


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:27:53 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 10:12 AM 7/28/98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>----------
>> From: Dr. Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com>
>> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
>> Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 11:44 PM
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Lockie wrote:
>> 
>> <snip follower stuff>
>> 
>> > no, he cost 10 points, he has 1000
>> 
>> Last I checked, 10 points got you a 50 pt follower.  It's a 1:5 ratio,
>not 
>> 1:100.
>> 
>
>
>last time i checked, 100% damage reduction was a bad joke. 
>
Holy non-sequiter, Batman.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:20:43 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 07:10 PM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: KWilson411@aol.com <KWilson411@aol.com>
>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 5:58 PM
>Subject: Re: Question on powers

>> Ahem,  According to all the info I've recieved, the particles in question
>are
>>very small and exist and dissappear almost instantaneously.  This happens
>>*EVERYWHERE* all the time but have no apparent effect on the rest of the
>>universe.  Except for the case of the black holes in which only one of the
>>particles in question might be trapped and the two do not self annihilate
>back
>>into nothingness.  Some of the particles in question could actually
>(according
>>to one source) have a negative mass and therefore have an anti-gravity
>effect.
>>Since this is at the moment still a theory and not proven fact <grin> its
>all
>>still up for grabs!!
>>Thank you for listening
>>
>>Ken
>
>
>Not necessarily small, just subatomic. ;-)
>
>I don't think in the science of physics there are any proven facts.  The
>above theory is about 24 years old and is going to be a theory for the
>foreseeable future.
>
>
Things fall.  That's a fact.  Air has mass.  That's a fact.  Physics has
lots of facts.  And lots of flaky theories, some of which may prove to be
true.  Physics is also famous for self contradiction and Law by Fiat.  As
an example of the latter, it has been proposed that time travel is
impossable not because observed laws prohibit it (quite the opposite is
true) but because no one knows what would happen if you kill your own
grandpa in the past.
Science decided that there are no naked singularities because if there
were, all of our physical laws must be local rather than universal and
anything is possable.  Stephen Hawking has proved that the odds that there
is a naked singularity _somewhere_ in our universe is 1(that is, a one in
one chance).

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:25:19 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 09:19 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
> I'm running a vigilante
>currently who is allergic to penicillin (Susceptability), and can't wear
>her Medic Alert tag in hero ID because she thinks the police could trace
>her by it (she took them as a Hunted).  (BTW, _do_ Medic Alert tags have
>ID numbers or codes on them?)
>
Yes, they do.  They have a 1-800 number to call to get the patient's full
medical records.  And, if you're X-files paranoid, they might also have
secret transponders to allow the patient to be tracked.  But _that_ is
fiction.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:36:45 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weak characters

At 10:13 PM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> From where I sit as a GM, I see the problem as being your fault...
>>> something had to change to make the campaign viable but you didn't do
>>> anything to cause a change.
>>
>>Err...where do you get that from?  Nothing in the original post said a
>>thing about the campaigns' having become non-viable.  One or two
>
>"I should have killed them all."  "They were too weak."  Sounds
>non-viable without modification on one side or the other to me.
>
It was clear to me that by "should have killed them all" he did not mean
that he should have killed the party, but rather that each time a vastly
underpowered character entered the game it should have been eliminated,
either through ban or gameplay.  The "them" did not refer to a weak party,
but to a number of weak PCs introduced at different times over a vast
period of time.
<<overly strident sentance deleted>>
You seem adequately repentant for an understandable mistake.

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From redlion@early.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:21:14 -0400
From: Len Carpenter <redlion@early.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Virtual Particles (Was: Question on powers)

>>> Under the "old" theories of quantum physics, a black hole can appear to be
>>> giving off radiation.  In short, the idea is that occasionally two opposite
>>> particles just "blink" into existance.  Normally, they would cancel each
>>> other out (this is _not_ matter vs antimatter), but a black hole could suck
>>> one in and the other would escape.  It gets weirder from here.
>> 
>> heyyy. . isn't the situation in which that partical/antiparticle thing
occurs
>> more common in that particular area for some reason? or somehting. . 
>> wouldn't that lead to cool sfx? man i gotta re-read ABHOT. . 
> 
> Ahem,  According to all the info I've recieved, the particles in question are
> very small and exist and dissappear almost instantaneously.  This happens
> *EVERYWHERE* all the time but have no apparent effect on the rest of the
> universe.  Except for the case of the black holes in which only one of the
> particles in question might be trapped and the two do not self annihilate
back
> into nothingness.  Some of the particles in question could actually
(according
> to one source) have a negative mass and therefore have an anti-gravity
effect.
> Since this is at the moment still a theory and not proven fact <grin> its all
> still up for grabs!!
> Thank you for listening
> 
> Ken

A good discussion of these virtual particles and other weirdisms in modern
physics is the book Hyperspace by Michio Kaku.  There's a lot of inspirational
material for a superhero or an SF campaign in that book--black holes,
wormholes, parallel universes, and time warps; the mystical notions and odd
fiction generated in the 19th Century with the discoveries of non-Euclidean and
higher-dimensional mathematics, and the implications for the 20th and 21st
Centuries with the recent theories of a ten-dimensional universe.  One of the
coolest parts of the book is the suggestion on using the Casimir effect (named
for the Dutch physicist who demonstrated how quantum physics and virtual
particles can be used to create negative energy) might be exploited to build a
time machine.

Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 17:25:27 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Different Disads

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:50:12 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:

>As long as we're talking characters here how about something different in
>the way of disadvantages? When a character is created, generally there is
>going to be a need for 100+ in disads. The standards are Secret ID, Psych
>Lims, DNPCs, and Hunteds which get really old after a while. Does anyone
>have any different disads they've used or different uses for the good old
>standards?

Accidental Change, Psychological Limitation, Susceptibility and
Vulnerability are all good for curses in FH.

Accidental Change doesn't have to be a werewolf-type change, it could
be a sex-change as was discussed some months ago, or a purely mental
change, or something along the lines of LadyHawk.

Psychological Limitation is pretty self-explanatory. How about Psych
Lim 'Can't stand the sight of own blood' for a warrior?

Susceptibility and vulnerability can be used for modelling things like
the effects of holy ground on a Vampire, or cold iron on a faerie, but
imagine if a warrior was cursed with the latter. How about Susceptible:
1d6 Cumulative Transform if kissed from a vengeful witch.

Unluck is a nasty one - try 4d6 Unluck, Only in presence of nobility
(-1).

But, paradoxically, they should make the character more fun to play and
NOT be a drag.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 17:27:17 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:54:29 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>	I'm designing a character who has Flight (SFX Wings).  However,
>this particular character has a maxium weight capacity of his casual STR.
>In addition, I thought lessening the velocity of his flight with an
>increasing burden would be appropiate for the character concept.

How about increasing the END used instead?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

On 27 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Nuncheon  writes:
> 
> > OTOH, Dave /can/ get more out of the 'vette's performance than say, me,
> > and the difference between Dave and I is?  Skill level.
> 
> Those are Dave's skill levels, not the car's, and they apply to his Combat
> Driving skill, not the vehicle's Turn Mode.  No matter how skilled Dave is,
> he can never get the Turn Mode lower than the minimum the vechicle is
> capable of sustaining.  If he tries to go beyond that point, he will spin
> out.

But he /can/ make the vehicle turn more tightly than I can without losing
control - that's my assumption.  If you don't agree with that, let me know
now. That is why I'm saying that the driver's skill has an effect on the
car's maneuverability.

Maybe to make it more accurate, I should say that 'as the driver's skill
increases, the car's effective maneuverability becomes closer to its
theoretical maximum'.  Is that more clear?

Now, the question is 'how do we handle this in game terms?'.

Item:  The statistics for the cars should be different, to reflect that a
Corvette is inherently more maneuverable than a Neon.

Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver influences the effective
maneuverability of the vehicle.  We should model this in game terms.

Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver has, at best, minimal
effect on the accelleration of the vehicle.  We should also model this in
game terms.

Are we agreed thus far?

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:05:30 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 12:45 AM 7/28/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
   [snip]
>Anyway, that's the problem with detailed background and disds. Maybe I'm
>missing something here. ::Shrug::

   Actually, yes, you are.  No disrespect is intended here, but you're
tending to come up with characters whose backgrounds are a bit boring.
   OK, so Captain Nice grew up in Indiana, where he left behind all his
family, never broke the law, and got a job as a field tester and high-power
security guard for a company in Phoenix developing battlesuits for the
Federal government, then yeah, he's not going to have much in Disads (the
above suggests just a Watched by his employer, and a few Psychological
Limitations).
   But then again, one can always have a "Girlfriend of the Week" DNPC (he
meets a girl, asks her out, and trouble starts while they're at the
restaurant).  The company might have an unethical competitor who wants to
grab the suit and use its technology, or at least cause them to lose their
precious government contract, giving him a Hunted that isn't really his
fault.  And then again, he might be "Unfamiliar with Big City Culture,"
good for a 5-point Physical Limitation until he gets acclamated (in other
words, it should be bought off fairly soon).
   On the other hand, if he got his Powers because some unethical scientist
slipped him a transmutation formula, or if he carries his high-tech
crime-busting weapons in an area with strict gun-control laws, or if there
happen to be rabid anti-alien or anti-mutant or anti-whatever groups who
don't like how he's giving a positive public portrayal for the group they
hate, then he has a bit of extra color to his background.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:08:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

At 12:29 AM 7/28/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Carl D Cravens writes:
>
>>> But the driver's skill levels *DON'T* affect the vehicle's Turn Mode.
>
>> Why not?  They're skill levels, and the Rulesbook says that skill levels
>> are character abilities.
>
>Because Skill Levels with Combat Driving are not Skill Levels with a
>vehicle's Turn Mode.

   Drivers are not limited to having Skill Levels with Combat Driving.
They can have generalized 3- or 5-point Skill Levels with Driving, or even
10-point Overall Levels.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:35:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers

At 07:46 PM 7/27/1998 -0500, Remnant wrote:
>My point is that the existence of a Limitation that does the opposite of
>what you want, isn't, in and of itself, justification for changing the sign
>and reversing the effect and calling it an Advantage.  In fact, sometimes
>this would be blatantly bad, although I don't think it is in this case.  If
>you don't agree, how would you feel about a character who takes Doesn't
>Affect Desolid for -1/2?

   This is an interesting point....  Mental Powers and (I *think*) NND
attacks normally do affect Desolid characters, at least under normal
circumstances (yes, there is Desolid vs Mental).  For these to always have
no effect against Desolid characters, I'd say that a -1/2 Limitation
wouldn't be altogether unreasonable, particularly of Desolid is common
enough to warrant a +1/2 Advantage.  (Though I'd certainly understand an
argument that the Limitation should be -1/4.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:41:53 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

> >last time i checked, 100% damage reduction was a bad joke. 
> >
> Holy non-sequiter, Batman.

erm actually, this was my POINT: godzilla for 10 points is 
just as silly as 100%dr. I can't help it if you lads think
in straight lines with bars on either side. 

"Enslave humanity willya?"

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From rambler@sowest.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:05:22 -0800
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Am I still here

Had a problem w/ my e-mail box.  Just checking if I'm still here

Eric



Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************



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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:27:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) Revisited - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

In regards to the question of Flight (Wings), with a maxium weight
capacity being casual STR and the speed of flight limited by the ammount
carried:

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> How about increasing the END used instead?
> qts

	The END used for STR or Flight?  In the case of STR, would it be a
Limitation on STR?  ...or would it be a limitation on Flight?
	The SFX I was thinking of would be wings that were 'weaker' than
the character's mighty musculature. While I'm thinking of giving the
character a 30 STR, she couldn't preform such feats as carrying a small
car while flying (because the wings would buckle under the weight).
	In the HERO Bestiary, are there any limitations on any of the 
Avian creatures?  For example, in AD&D, Dragons can't fly after they loose
more than %50 of their HP, or certain gossamer winged cretures may have
'Fragile' wings.  A few examples of Flight (Winged) power sets would be
appreciated.  
        
	I think I will encorporate an increased END cost on his NCM as a
limitation, requiring her to make more frequent stops if flying at greater
speeds...
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From willpickering@hotmail.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:25:07 PDT
From: Will Pickering <willpickering@hotmail.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Bye guys

Bye guys. I'm unsubscribing.

I've only been on the list for a short time and there've been some 
intersting points raised (not counting that interminable nonsense about 
100% Damage Reduction), but I'm finding the volume of traffic a bit much 
to deal with: I only get serious computer time every two or three days, 
and can't really justify spending three hours JUST to check my mail. 
I've got a campaign to run...

-------------------------------
Willhelm, Graf von Pickering-Round MA OJ SCCAM;
Lover of Women, Creator of Universes, Destroyer of False Gods;
Artist, Philosopher and Mountebank For Hire.
http:www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/Gaming/overwatch
-------------------------------
Always generalise;
and may the Force be with you all.  

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:50:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 12:41 AM 7/29/1998 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>> >last time i checked, 100% damage reduction was a bad joke. 
>> >
>> Holy non-sequiter, Batman.
>
>erm actually, this was my POINT: godzilla for 10 points is 
>just as silly as 100%dr. I can't help it if you lads think
>in straight lines with bars on either side.

   Unfortunately, in this case you tried to make a point that had nothing
to do with the matter under discussion, which in this case was how much a
Follower costs.  (This, by the way, is what a non-sequitur is, for those
who don't know -- a statement that has nothing to do with what goes before.
 Also, I have an ink cartridge for my printer that I bought nearly a month
ago and still haven't put in.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


______________________________________________________________________________
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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:02:12 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

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Nuncheon  writes:

> Maybe to make it more accurate, I should say that 'as the driver's skill
> increases, the car's effective maneuverability becomes closer to its
> theoretical maximum'.  Is that more clear?

Ah, good.  I think I have finally made my point.  Yes, this is more clear;
it is what I have been trying to get across.

> Now, the question is 'how do we handle this in game terms?'.

> Item:  The statistics for the cars should be different, to reflect that a
> Corvette is inherently more maneuverable than a Neon.

Give the vehicle Skill Levels with its Running Turn Mode (all vehicle
movement forms have a Turn Mode).  A Corvette will have more such levels
than a Neon (assuming Neon has any in the first place).  This is straight
out of the book.

> Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver influences the effective
> maneuverability of the vehicle.  We should model this in game terms.

Some of the Turn Mode skill levels have a -0 limitation (-0 because they
cost less than 5 points each): requires a Combat Driving roll.  If you want
to put a little more realism into it, you get one Turn Mode level for each
point or two by which you make the Combat Driving roll.

> Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver has, at best, minimal
> effect on the accelleration of the vehicle.

You'd be suprised.  The more experienced driver is better able to keep the
engine in its "power band" for each gear.  The power bands are where you
get maximum acceleration.

> We should also model this in game terms.

My suggestion is for Acceleration skill levels which work much like Turn
Mode skill levels.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
                                    \ head.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:09:05 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Filksinger  writes:

> The particles are known as virtual particles. They come into creation in
> pairs, and exist for a period of time so short that they don't violate
> the laws of the universe. When they form near a black hole, and one gets
> trapped and one doesn't, the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy
> states that the mass/energy of the escaping particle has to come from
> somewhere; that somewhere, it is believed, is the black hole.

Hawking radiation, because this theory is one of Steven Hawking's.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:05:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> (This, by the way, is what a non-sequitur is, for those
> who don't know -- a statement that has nothing to do with what goes before.
>  Also, I have an ink cartridge for my printer that I bought nearly a month
> ago and still haven't put in.)

And I like sushi.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:07:34 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Greenwade writes:

>    Drivers are not limited to having Skill Levels with Combat Driving.
> They can have generalized 3- or 5-point Skill Levels with Driving, or
> even 10-point Overall Levels.

So what?  The most skilled driver in the world cannot make a Neon power
slide around a fast oval like he can a Corvette.  Neon is physically
incapable of doing it.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:26:58 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

geoff heald writes:

> Things fall.  That's a fact.  Air has mass.  That's a fact.  Physics has
> lots of facts.

If you are going to argue this, get your terminology straight.

Physics has no facts, just repeated observations.

An hypothesis is an untested idea.

A theory is an hypothesis that has been subjected to experiment and
scrutiny and appears to be valid.

A law is a theory that is assumed to be valid in all cases within a
particular frame of reference.

Acceleration due to gravity is not a fact; it is a theory.  Matter has mass
is not a fact; it is a theory.

> And lots of flaky theories, some of which may prove to be true.  Physics
> is also famous for self contradiction and Law by Fiat.  As an example of
> the latter, it has been proposed that time travel is impossable not
> because observed laws prohibit it (quite the opposite is true) but
> because no one knows what would happen if you kill your own grandpa in
> the past.

The belief is that the Universe will not allow that to occour in the first
place.  Effects always follow causes.  For time travel backwards to occour
would create a situation in which effects preceed causes, which cannot
happen.

> Science decided that there are no naked singularities because if there
> were, all of our physical laws must be local rather than universal

Which we already know to be the case.  Specific relativity.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
                                    \ head.

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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:21:32 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 6:05 AM -0700 7/28/98, Bob Greenwade wrote:
[snip]
>   Actually, yes, you are.  No disrespect is intended here, but you're
>tending to come up with characters whose backgrounds are a bit boring.
>   OK, so Captain Nice grew up in Indiana, where he left behind all his
>family, never broke the law, and got a job as a field tester and high-power
>security guard for a company in Phoenix developing battlesuits for the
>Federal government, then yeah, he's not going to have much in Disads (the
>above suggests just a Watched by his employer, and a few Psychological
>Limitations).
>   But then again, one can always have a "Girlfriend of the Week" DNPC (he
>meets a girl, asks her out, and trouble starts while they're at the
>restaurant).
[snip]

Funny you should mention Captain Nice and Indiana. I'm currently working on
2 different character backgrounds trying to decide which one will be the
most fun to play. One happens to be born in Iowa and moved to Minnesota.
The purpose for this is to provide a balance for divorced parents, lower
income upbringing, and a desire for wealth and fame with good old fashioned
midwestern values. Not exactly Ma & Pa Kent but close.

Physical Lims are out for this guy due to the nature of his powers. I like
the "Girlfriend of the Week" for this guy but he tends to spend a lot of
time in the lab working [secretly] on his cure all/extend life project. Not
a nerdy or antisocial thing but a priorities viewpoint. Success first, then
the wife, house, 2.4 kids, and Porsche. I've also toyed with the "closet
romantic lab assistant/co-conspirator" schtick as well. Of course he still
has to finish his doctorate too so his research isn't exactly authorized.

Alright, so I have a DNPC 8-, about 30 points of Psych Lims (I don't see
this guy as one who takes a lot of irrational actions although he is a bit
impulsive), a Secret ID which actually works well for this character (for a
change), and a Vulnerability to radiation. This gives him around 80-100
points which is better than average but he'll need another 70 points or so
because I won't be able to do this character at Base+75 (my standard goal).

Okay, so this is an extremely condensed background and the thread was
intended to be a bit more generic but this guy's background fits your
description of "boring". So, leaving the basic concept/background intact,
how would you jazz this guy up without turning him into raving psycopathic
vigilante? I also want to avoid the Peter Parker bad luck syndrome. Been
there, done that, bought way to many T-shirts.

BTW, I wasn't offended. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
so far. :)

Laterz,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:01:44 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with


----------
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 2:50 AM
> 
> At 12:41 AM 7/29/1998 +1000, Lockie wrote:
> >> >last time i checked, 100% damage reduction was a bad joke. 
> >> >
> >> Holy non-sequiter, Batman.
> >
> >erm actually, this was my POINT: godzilla for 10 points is 
> >just as silly as 100%dr. I can't help it if you lads think
> >in straight lines with bars on either side.
> 
>    Unfortunately, in this case you tried to make a point that had nothing
> to do with the matter under discussion, which in this case was how much a
> Follower costs.  (This, by the way, is what a non-sequitur is, for those
> who don't know -- a statement that has nothing to do with what goes
before.
>  Also, I have an ink cartridge for my printer that I bought nearly a
month
> ago and still haven't put in.)
> ---

Actually the thread went like this:

i said something about how silly 100% dr was. 

someone else said that imbalancing stuff exists anyway

i replied with a few ludicrous examples, in the hope 
that the reality of 100% as a FAR GREATER IMBALANCE 
would sink in. 

someone missed the point of one of these examples and 
took it literally. babble about folowers insued. 

I pointed out the bleeding obvious- the laughable
idea of a 1000+ point godzilla clone being gotten for 10 
points is roughy equivalent to the 100% dr power construct. 

somebody else missed the point, now assuming that not 
only did i not know how much a follower cost, but i also didn't know 
what a non-sequiter was.  are we seeing a trend here?
i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE, 
and i'm happy to call names and stuff if that's what your after. 


> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From jonesl@cqnet.com.au Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:03:59 +1000
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with



----------
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
> To: 
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 4:05 AM
> 
> And I like sushi.
> 

Speaking of sushi, mr greenwade you really should check to 
see if the cartrige has an expiration date. Otherwise the 
peace plan will NEVER get off the ground. 

"Enslave humanity willya?"


>
***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
* 
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net               
* 
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:       
*   
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html            
*
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT           
*
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
*
>
***************************************************************************


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:00:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

On 28 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Nuncheon  writes:
> 
> > Item:  The statistics for the cars should be different, to reflect that a
> > Corvette is inherently more maneuverable than a Neon.
> 
> Give the vehicle Skill Levels with its Running Turn Mode (all vehicle
> movement forms have a Turn Mode).  A Corvette will have more such levels
> than a Neon (assuming Neon has any in the first place).  This is straight
> out of the book.

Agreed.
 
> > Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver influences the effective
> > maneuverability of the vehicle.  We should model this in game terms.
> 
> Some of the Turn Mode skill levels have a -0 limitation (-0 because they
> cost less than 5 points each): requires a Combat Driving roll.  If you want
> to put a little more realism into it, you get one Turn Mode level for each
> point or two by which you make the Combat Driving roll.

Agreed as well.

I just have to ask, though...isn't this /exactly/ what I said in a
previous post to the list?  (Unless I miss my guess, it was the one you
were replying to...)
 
> > Item: In the real world, the skill of the driver has, at best, minimal
> > effect on the accelleration of the vehicle.
> 
> You'd be suprised.  The more experienced driver is better able to keep the
> engine in its "power band" for each gear.  The power bands are where you
> get maximum acceleration.

I'll believe this - I doubt that you could double it or anything, but
buying a level or two with 'requires a skill roll' works for me.
 
J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:35:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Lockie wrote:

Just a few points...

> I pointed out the bleeding obvious- 

If it's 'bleeding obvious' then why's there so much discussion about it?
I think Bob Greenwade would say 'It's bleeding obvious that 100% DR is
/not/ a problem, since I used it and it worked.'

> the laughable
> idea of a 1000+ point godzilla clone being gotten for 10 
> points is roughy equivalent to the 100% dr power construct. 

Except that one (Follower) exists in the rules as they stand, and the
other (the proposed 100% DR) does not.

So one breaks the rules, and the other doesn't, **because there aren't any
rules for it to break.**

No offense, but it was a lousy analogy.

> i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
> the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE, 

You mean, like...a mathematical extrapolation of current Damage Reduction
levels and point costs? (Which is where the 120 pts - 100% rDR came from)

The series 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 continues with...4/4.*
The series 15, 30, 60 continues with...120.

Makes sense to me, makes sense to Bob, makes sense to a whole bunch of
other people.

* A lot of people would dearly like it to go to 7/8 or some such, but then
  1/4 doesn't fit at all.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly, the argument has been going like this:

Lockie:          This is unbalancing!
Someone else:    I used it in my game and it wasn't unbalancing.  You
 (Bob, me, etc)  just have to be careful.
Lockie:          But it's unbalancing!  If you let this happen everyone
                 will want to do it!
Someone else:    There are a lot of unbalancing things in the rules, and 
                 not everyone is doing them.
Lockie:          But it's UNBALANCING!

Game balance and points are artificial constructs, and points aren't even
the best way to handle game balance - just compare an experienced
HERO player's character to a newbie's, and you'll see the kind of power
level difference I'm talking about.  All point values do is get you into a
certain range which makes it easier for the GM to do the actual
fine-tuning of game balance.  That's all they /can/ do.

If you, as a GM, don't feel able to handle the potentially unbalancing
effects of 100% DR in your games, nobody says you have to allow it.  I
frequently discourage Telepathy and similar powers because they make
keeping secrets very difficult, and mystery scenarios are much harder to
run.  100% DR isn't going to help you when you're not in combat, and in
fact would be next to useless in a problem-solving or a social scenario*.
And there are even (as has been pointed out) ways around it in combat.  So
I don't think it's really the game-buster you make it out to be.  *MAYBE*
if your game consisted solely of fight scenes *and* the GM was unwilling
to use any of the combat methods we've discussed to 'get around' the 100%
DR, then - and only then - would it be so unbalancing as to break the
game.

IMHO.

* - Well, OK, I suppose you could use it to pick up chicks.  "Hey,
    baby...I'm invulnerable..."

J


Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:43:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 05:01 AM 7/29/1998 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>i replied with a few ludicrous examples, in the hope 
>that the reality of 100% as a FAR GREATER IMBALANCE 
>would sink in. 
>
>someone missed the point of one of these examples and 
>took it literally. babble about folowers insued. 
>
>I pointed out the bleeding obvious- the laughable
>idea of a 1000+ point godzilla clone being gotten for 10 
>points is roughy equivalent to the 100% dr power construct. 
>
>somebody else missed the point, now assuming that not 
>only did i not know how much a follower cost, but i also didn't know 
>what a non-sequiter was.  are we seeing a trend here?

   I didn't see the post where you made this statement... and, frankly, I
don't see the parallel.  A 1000+ point Godzilla clone as a Follower for 10
points is totally outside the realm of the printed rules, simply because
Followers cost 5:1, and 1:1 if the total is greater than the owner's, and
Limitations are not allowed.  (Although they *are* allowed on Summon, so it
is theoretically possible to get that Godzilla clone for 10 points.)
   On the other hand, it's a relatively simple matter (mathematically
speaking) to extend the Damage Reduction table using the formula of +25% to
Reduction for 2x points.  For that matter, it would be *theoretically*
possible to get 125% Damage Reduction for four times the cost of 75%, thus
*getting back* STUN and BODY when hit -- though just try getting that past
any GM (even if it does cost 240 points per damage type, if resistant).

>i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
>the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE, 
>and i'm happy to call names and stuff if that's what your after.

   No, just remember to put your counterarguments on the same plane as the
arguments you get.  If someone makes a point mathematically, don't argue
philosophy.  Make your points *specific* and detailed -- don't leave your
connections to guesswork.  Leave all salient parts of a conversation in
your quoted material (though at least you don't quote back every last byte,
or fail to quote at all).  I know you can handle this, because you've done
it before and made your points very clear, not to mention convincing, in
the process.
   And if you think the Damage Reduction table doesn't make sense, then
just say that directly; don't hide it behind a discussion of a rules
proposal.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:32:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

At 05:03 AM 7/29/1998 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>> And I like sushi.
>
>Speaking of sushi, mr greenwade you really should check to 
>see if the cartrige has an expiration date. Otherwise the 
>peace plan will NEVER get off the ground. 

   But what about Naomi?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:20:03 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

At 02:26 PM 7/28/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> And lots of flaky theories, some of which may prove to be true.  Physics
>> is also famous for self contradiction and Law by Fiat.  As an example of
>> the latter, it has been proposed that time travel is impossable not
>> because observed laws prohibit it (quite the opposite is true) but
>> because no one knows what would happen if you kill your own grandpa in
>> the past.
>
>The belief is that the Universe will not allow that to occour in the first
>place.  Effects always follow causes.  For time travel backwards to occour
>would create a situation in which effects preceed causes, which cannot
>happen.

   Of course, this assumes a linear, participatory view of time.  If one
sees time as circular, and takes an observational view, one can see many
possibilities for travelling back in time.  Of course, the observational
part is easy, since we're all storytellers and fans of stories told; the
circular view of time is more difficult, not to mention quite difficult to
explain.
   Think of time as a one-way freeway.  Everyone is travelling forward at
the same steady pace, and there's no traffic anywhere else.  Suddenly
someone in a four-wheel drive jumps the road, goes out into the field, and
travels at high speed in the opposite direction, rejoining traffic a ways
back because he wants to see a certain piece of scenery again.  (The
scenery is historical events.)  This is as opposed to the more traditional
view of time travel, where the truck just hits reverse and goes back.
   The first thing to remember is that it would not be possible to alter
your own experience.  The question of what would happen if you were to
travel back in time to kill your own grandfather before your father was
born would be that you would fail in the attempt.  The gun would jam, the
knife would break, the ground would slip, your resolve would waver, or
*something* would happen to prevent his actual death.  In fact, it's
entirely possible that you'd provide a vital link in the chain of events
that led to your father's birth.
   Want to stop the Kennedy assassination?  Given this theory, you'll
probably end up *causing* it, or at least making the difference that makes
it successful.  Want to keep Howard Hughes from becoming a paranoid
recluse?  You're more likely to get him wondering about your own hidden
agenda.
   Not that fictional time travel stories involving events that have
already transpired in the real world will end up being wholly implausible.
It'd be entirely plausible for a criminal to do research on what stocks
have done the best over history, and then go back and set up a trust fund
for himself, with instructions on what to buy and sell over the years.  The
fund could buy reasonably small amounts of stock and rack up the millions
over the past century without having much effect on the grand scheme of
things.  Then, at a point after he leaves, the traveller could start living
off the profits.  Of course, this constitutes insider trading, and could
have serious effects on the modern-day economy if this was done too much.
Similar plots could involve autographed Jackie Robinson rookie cards, or
mint-condition copies of Action Comics #1.
   Or what about fugitives from justice who hide at various eras in the
past, most often disappearing into the woodwork?  This could be the premise
of a whole campaign; at least a couple of TV shows have used this general
idea (Time Trax, Timecop).
   Also, time travel could have an important, if obvious, use for
historians, as they go back to personally observe and record significant
moments in history.  Having some video of the Gettysburg Address, for
instance, could show us the audience's real reaction as well as the true
sound of Lincoln's voice (described by some as high and twangy, by the way).
   Anyway, that's my thought on the topic.  I could be totally wrong.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:29:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 01:21 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>Funny you should mention Captain Nice and Indiana. I'm currently working on
>2 different character backgrounds trying to decide which one will be the
>most fun to play. One happens to be born in Iowa and moved to Minnesota.
>The purpose for this is to provide a balance for divorced parents, lower
>income upbringing, and a desire for wealth and fame with good old fashioned
>midwestern values. Not exactly Ma & Pa Kent but close.
>
>Physical Lims are out for this guy due to the nature of his powers. I like
>the "Girlfriend of the Week" for this guy but he tends to spend a lot of
>time in the lab working [secretly] on his cure all/extend life project. Not
>a nerdy or antisocial thing but a priorities viewpoint. Success first, then
>the wife, house, 2.4 kids, and Porsche. I've also toyed with the "closet
>romantic lab assistant/co-conspirator" schtick as well. Of course he still
>has to finish his doctorate too so his research isn't exactly authorized.
>
>Alright, so I have a DNPC 8-, about 30 points of Psych Lims (I don't see
>this guy as one who takes a lot of irrational actions although he is a bit
>impulsive), a Secret ID which actually works well for this character (for a
>change), and a Vulnerability to radiation. This gives him around 80-100
>points which is better than average but he'll need another 70 points or so
>because I won't be able to do this character at Base+75 (my standard goal).
>
>Okay, so this is an extremely condensed background and the thread was
>intended to be a bit more generic but this guy's background fits your
>description of "boring". So, leaving the basic concept/background intact,
>how would you jazz this guy up without turning him into raving psycopathic
>vigilante? I also want to avoid the Peter Parker bad luck syndrome. Been
>there, done that, bought way to many T-shirts.
>
>BTW, I wasn't offended. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
>so far. :)

   What you have so far are "basic background" Disads.  But what about his
super background?  What kind of powers does he have?  Are they intrinsic,
or through a Focus -- or does he just use normal equipment?  Does he carry
any heavy weaponry (generally frowned upon by law enforcement in most
states)?  Does he use martial arts to any heavy extent (possibly making
room for the "Style Disadvantage" Distinctive Feature)?  Is he an alien or
mutant, and if so is there an organization in the campaign that hates
aliens or mutants?
   Along a different line of thought, what kind of scientific research is
this guy doing?  If it's "not exactly authorized," could he be Hunted (or
at least Watched) by the people whose equipment he's using for it?  Could
he be Hunted (or Watched) by some unethical corporate body who wants this
data for their own purposes?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:33:47 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs


>   But what about Naomi?


Omigod!  I thought I was the only one that remembers Naomi!!

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From tsang@sedl.org Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:14:05 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

I think the only thing we really need to look at is "50% damage reduction
for 20 or 30 points".  It stacks, just like "x2 Noncombat Multiple for +5
pts", or "twice as many such followers for +5 pts".

The 25% case is an aberration (it should be about 30%, but people who can't
do math like 1/4 better, and "besides, you should be a little less efficient
at that low a point cost"), and the 75% case fits the cost structure.

Nothing in the rules says you can't buy:

30  50% Damage Reduction, Resistant Physical
20  50% Damage Reduction, Resistant Physical, OIF armor
15  50% Damage Reduction, Resistant Physical, OAF shield

What's the result?  Each one is applied sequentially, and voila!  Instant
87.5% Damage Reduction (about 90%, really, if you round at each stage).

Nothing in the rules says you _can_ buy 100% DR, so that would be a
House Rule.  Trying to get people to agree on House Rules is fruitless.

As a GM, I allow (90% / 100%) instead of (87.5% / 93.75%) in campaigns
where characters are built on fewer than 1000 points, but they have to
have a good justification.  That the 100% happens to cost exactly twice
what 75% does is... a coincedence.

  Donald

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From griffin@txdirect.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:05 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:52:14 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

>>Speaking of sushi, mr greenwade you really should check to 
>>see if the cartrige has an expiration date. Otherwise the 
>>peace plan will NEVER get off the ground. 
>
>   But what about Naomi?

Hey!  I know that one...from somewhere in the dim past...but wasn't it --

"...and what of Naomi?"

Damon

|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     |
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           |
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  |
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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:05:13 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: House Rules: (was Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

Donald Tsang writes:
>Nothing in the rules says you _can_ buy 100% DR, so that would be a
>House Rule.  Trying to get people to agree on House Rules is fruitless.

It's the absoluteness of this statement that I disagree with more than
whether 100% DR makes it into the rules.  Obviously, X% of people have
agreed on house rules in the past, else we would never have had anything
past 1st ed Champions.  Heck, we wouldn't even have 1st ed.  If I remember
my Hero history correctly, didn't George mix his powers with Steve P's
characteristic ideas?

I'm sure you guys can point out plenty of cases where house rules
eventually became rules.  Isn't that exactly what is happening with the
changing cost of Aid and Hand Attack in 5th ed?

I'll agree that you will never get 100% agreement.  I'll even agree that
there will always be a few violently against X rule.

Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net

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From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:03:33 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Question on powers


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>geoff heald writes:
>
>> Things fall.  That's a fact.  Air has mass.  That's a fact.  Physics has
>> lots of facts.
>
>If you are going to argue this, get your terminology straight.
>
>Physics has no facts, just repeated observations.


I didn't think I would ever say this but "Thanks, Rat."  :-)

Alan


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From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:52:44 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Questions about Flight & other powers


>At 07:46 PM 7/27/1998 -0500, Remnant wrote:
>>My point is that the existence of a Limitation that does the opposite of
>>what you want, isn't, in and of itself, justification for changing the
sign
>>and reversing the effect and calling it an Advantage.  In fact, sometimes
>>this would be blatantly bad, although I don't think it is in this case.
If
>>you don't agree, how would you feel about a character who takes Doesn't
>>Affect Desolid for -1/2?
>
>   This is an interesting point....  Mental Powers and (I *think*) NND
>attacks normally do affect Desolid characters, at least under normal
>circumstances (yes, there is Desolid vs Mental).  For these to always have


Mental yes, NND no.

>no effect against Desolid characters, I'd say that a -1/2 Limitation
>wouldn't be altogether unreasonable, particularly of Desolid is common
>enough to warrant a +1/2 Advantage.  (Though I'd certainly understand an
>argument that the Limitation should be -1/4.)


Yes that use of the Limitation Doesn't Affect Desolid makes sense.  However,
the "blatantly bad" example I was trying to make was not restricted to just
Mental powers.  Any power can occasionally work against a Desolid character.
A "silly putty" character in my game has Desolid that is affected by
heat-based attacks.  If I hit him with a Energy Blast w/SFX Fire he takes
the damage even if he is Desolid at the time.  If I placed a -1/2 Limitation
of Doesn't Affect Desolid on it, he would not take the damage.  The problem
is that in this case it certainly isn't worth a -1/2 or for that matter even
a -1/4.  The only time that such a Limitation could actually be valid is if
the power normally affected most Desolids and instead didn't, as in your
example regarding Mental Powers.

Alan


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:22:06 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

At 05:52 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>>>Speaking of sushi, mr greenwade you really should check to 
>>>see if the cartrige has an expiration date. Otherwise the 
>>>peace plan will NEVER get off the ground. 
>>
>>   But what about Naomi?
>
>Hey!  I know that one...from somewhere in the dim past...but wasn't it --
>
>"...and what of Naomi?"

   Not if you're thinking of the "Love of Chair" bit from "The Electric
Company."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From easleyap@mobis.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:01:09 -0500
From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Power Modifiers

I just had either a good idea or a bad idea.  I can't figure out which.

I thought it might be a good idea if we all submitted different Limitations
and Advantages that we use in our game and the value of them that are not in
the BBB or HSR.  I realize that this might start lots of argument over
whether or not the values for the Power Modifiers are "correct." If
everybody remembers that the value of the Power Modifiers often have to
adjusted to be appropriate for each game then maybe the arguing won't get
out of hand.  This might be a good resource for the newer players.  I often
found articles in the Adventurer's Club to be very useful when I started
playing.  If you think that a particular Modifier is confusing, a brief
description could be helpful.

Thanks, Alan.



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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:59:02 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: House Rules: (was Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

Donald, I'm piggybacking off of your question to provide what I think is
the real answer.  Please don't consider any of my commentaries to be
directed at you.
> From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
> I'm sorry, was the 100% DR discussion based on an actual 5E possibility?
It wasn't based on actual 5th ed possiblility, but it quickly got into
that.  IMHO, there are a lot of agendas (some hidden, some not) involved in
this discussion.  We are only partially discussing 100% DR.  We are also
discussing Hero Meta Rules, which is why this discussion is not "silly", as
some have said.  They've missed the point.

> I thought it had merely degenerated into the standard shouting match,
> with incoherent ramblings from our Australian friend, and weird backward
> strait-laced obtusely-by-the-book insistence from Rat.  I was merely
> trying to point out that there was already a built-in "extensiveness"
> to Damage Reduction, and included my own House Rules (clearly labeled
> as such) for people to adopt into their own campaigns.

Err, actually Rat has been very quiet on this one.  I gathered that he had
already had his say in an earlier thread.

Not to offend anyone here, but I really don't have that much mentally
invested in whether Hero includes 100% DR or not.  Whatever got included,
wouldn't be what I'm doing--so I'll continue using my own house rules.  Of
course, if Hero had published some optional 100% DR rules, chances are,
some of those would have worked close enough, and I could have saved myself
the trouble.

What I do object to is "holy reverence" towards the existing rules.  As in
anything outside the rules is not fit to be discussed within the same
sanctuary.  Hey, they are great rules, but they are not perfect.  In fact,
I can even live with the holy reverence crowd, as long as they don't see
everything in terms of black and white.  As in "100% damage reduction is
out, so unless you are on this list, that's the last we will hear of it." 
That's just too cavalier an attitude towards something that some paying
Hero customers obviously want (at least discussed).  It's not like someone
proposed a new power:  Instant Destruction, 5 points, never misses. 
Doesn't it strike everyone as just a little odd that so many people have
house rules for the same thing (100% DR)?  When the same people
independently develop something to meet the same need, I would say that
Hero isn't covering one of the bases.  (Yes, I restated the same thing
several ways.  I wanted to make sure my point was clear.)

I didn't get much comments on my 5th ed Almanac suggestion, but that seems
like a good place to include optional house rules.  I quote from Almanac I,
p. 4:  "We can't stress strongly enough, though, that all of the rules
presented in this section are optional.  They are not intended, at this
point, to become part of the permanent rules...depending on your feedback,
they might become part of the permanent rules."

A modest proposal:  What if Hero collected a set of short, optional rules,
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From this list and elsewhere.  Then edited them to pick out the more
interesting ones (and especially those with good explanations).  Let's say
they final list came down to about 30 pages.  Then we traveled back in time
and replaced the Spirit Rules with those 30 pages.  In everyone's opinion,
would this make a stronger, more interesting, better Almancac?  Could we
have a vote?

(I'm not just picking on the spirit rules.  Having actually used them for 2
years, before given up, I put them in the category of noble failure.  I
just think they took up too much space for what they provided.  I'm not
picking on the Almanac, either--except that I think optional rules work
better in lots of small does, rather than a few larges ones.)


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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:06:38 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Modifiers

> From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com>
> I just had either a good idea or a bad idea.  I can't figure out which.
> 
> I thought it might be a good idea if we all submitted different
Limitations
> and Advantages that we use in our game and the value of them that are not
in
> the BBB or HSR...

I think it's a good idea.  But I'm going to wait and see what kind of flak
you catch before I actually submit anything.  I don't have any Psych Lims
that require me to go out on a limb for a fellow list member ;-) 


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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:32:46 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: House Rules: (was Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

> From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
> >What I do object to is "holy reverence" towards the existing rules.  As
in
> >anything outside the rules is not fit to be discussed within the same
> >sanctuary.
> 
> While I agree with the sentiment, there's that other side: people discuss
> House Rules, but believe they're discussing "by the book" rules.  The BBB
> is there for a reason: standardization...

I agree.  In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that you cannot have any
decent house rules (or at least talk about them outside your own campaign)
without some standard in which to refer.  The tighter the standard, the
easier it is for the author and editor of the house rules to communciate
_where_ they differ.  Thus, the grey area--semi official rules that at
least some folks would like to talk about, but cannot quite make the cut as
standards.

I believe Hero uses "optional" to refer to such rules :-)  <goes into storm
shelter, grabs radio mike, and starts broadcasting, "I'm not completely
serious about that.">


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From llwatts@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:04:12 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

>Physical Lims are out for this guy due to the nature of his powers. I
like
>the "Girlfriend of the Week" for this guy but he tends to spend a lot of
>time in the lab working [secretly] on his cure all/extend life project.
Not
>a nerdy or antisocial thing but a priorities viewpoint. Success first,
then
>the wife, house, 2.4 kids, and Porsche. I've also toyed with the "closet
>romantic lab assistant/co-conspirator" schtick as well. Of course he
still
>has to finish his doctorate too so his research isn't exactly
authorized.

When my uncle was working on his doctorate, I remember he did a lot of
assistant teaching -- partly for financial reasons, but mainly because
that's the sort of thing doctoral candidates get stuck with by their
advisors.  Decide how often he has to leave his lab and teach Intro To
<name of appropriate science> to 75 bored freshmen, supervise
undergraduate labs, or similar tasks, and give him a Watched by
University.  He could also have a Reputation in the scientific/academic
community based on what's known about his research and his master's
thesis, or a Rivalry with someone else doing similar research.

Leah

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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:03:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Limited Power: Blade

What is Limited Power: Blade?

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From KWilson411@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:10:37 EDT
From: KWilson411@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Power Modifiers

Power Modifiers in use currently in my campaign:

Beyond Death      +1 Advantage 
Usually affects regeneration.  GM is required to allow the adv. and sets up
conditions depending on character as to when it won't work. 

Any Target           +1 Advantage
Specifically for Transformation.  Generaly transformation is only supposed to
affect one type of target when bought, however I didn't feel that this fit
with the type of SFX that I was using (nanites) which would not care what the
target was and start breaking it down and rebuilding it to the new specs. 

                                                     
I know I'm using a few more but I just can't seem to remember what they are.

Thank you for listening.

Ken

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From KWilson411@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:20:49 EDT
From: KWilson411@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Heromaker  2.5


I am having a problem with a specific area of Heromaker.  When saving
automatons, the information does not seem to be saved correctly and the
numbers get thrown around.  By numbers I mean the   base points and exp points
get totally messed up and the automaton powers are not on the character sheet
(printed) however they still modify the characteristics like they are supposed
to.  I was hoping that when the next version came out it would fix the problem
but I have not seen any more versions after 2.5.     Steve do you know if this
could be fixed? 

Thank you for listening.

Ken

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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:48:41 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 1:29 PM -0700 7/28/98, Bob Greenwade wrote:
[snip]
>   What you have so far are "basic background" Disads.  But what about his
>super background?  What kind of powers does he have?  Are they intrinsic,
>or through a Focus -- or does he just use normal equipment?  Does he carry
>any heavy weaponry (generally frowned upon by law enforcement in most
>states)?  Does he use martial arts to any heavy extent (possibly making
>room for the "Style Disadvantage" Distinctive Feature)?  Is he an alien or
>mutant, and if so is there an organization in the campaign that hates
>aliens or mutants?
>   Along a different line of thought, what kind of scientific research is
>this guy doing?  If it's "not exactly authorized," could he be Hunted (or
>at least Watched) by the people whose equipment he's using for it?  Could
>he be Hunted (or Watched) by some unethical corporate body who wants this
>data for their own purposes?
>---

I don't think I understand what you mean by "super background", but neither
of the characters have any experiences as supers. It's the nature of the
campaign. One of them is a gadgeteer but I'm making good progress with him
so I'm not going to introduce him. I'll take some of these comments that
are being tossed around and adapt them for him though.

The character we're talking about is a Mimic using the Nanotechnology
schtick. Yeah, I know that 1 out of 5 people have done this but I haven't
yet. Taking a cue from the Discovery channel, the nanites (sp?) are
biological rather than mechanical. ***Collage students pay attention and
see if I got this right*** While working on the thesis for his masters
degree he decided to experiment as well and developed some nanites. Of
course, he had to experiment on himself and inject / injested the little
buggers. They work fine, extending life, healing and the like. He can also
"inject" them into other people by touching them at which point they hop
onto the nervous system and do what they were sent to do (supply DNA code,
heal, whatever). Injected nanites do not reproduce. They complete their
task and traipse on down to the intestinal track where they die and are
expelled. The nanites living in Hero do reproduce.

Theres a one paragraph origin (sort of). Anyway, the Vulnerability to
radiation is because the radiation kills the nanites faster than they can
reproduce. There's also the possibility that the nanites don't work against
radioactive targets but that's a limitation that the GM and I will toss
around. The Secret ID in this case serves 2 functions. Hero seems to
perform better with a mask (almost becomes a different person) and he wants
to protect his research from falling into the hands of others before he's
had a chance to refine it. Also, theres some flaw in the formula that
requires more research. Sounds like an Addiction might work there but
having lived with an addict that is one bit of reality that I despise and
will not use.

For hunted/watched, I doubt that the University knows about the research.
They know about the paper though. ***Again, would the collage students
verify the former.*** It's possible that the paper or his activities
attracted some attention although it would most likely be covert watching
since public knowledge would bring patent sharks and job offers to spare (I
think). Hmmmm.

For present time, the change would have happened in his 6th or 7th years of
collage. He's finished his Masters and has moved to wherever he's going to
be a hero at (haven't asked yet). He's working on his Doctorate and
continuing his research (not sure how). I haven't exactly reached that
point of the background so the details are a bit sketchy. As far as I know
his first scenario will be his debute as a hero. Oh yeah, the research he's
doing is Biological/Medical research to find a cure for whatever ails
humanity and extend the life span of the average human. For those who
watch, the Discovery channel is a great resource isn't it. ;)

That's it for this round,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From burleson@genesisnet.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:57:21 -0500
From: Burleson's <burleson@genesisnet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker  2.5 {etc}



I am looking for software to compliment HeroMaker (The one from the Deluxe
book. Are there others?).
I have a HeroPlus electronic book, and have heard of other software. Some
was from old ACs but I have had no luck finding anyone who has a copy of
these to sell. Another I saw on a website called the Game Masters
Super-Powered Companion. I tried but could not download it. 

Anyone had better luck?

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From burleson@genesisnet.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:59:47 -0500
From: Burleson's <burleson@genesisnet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Weird Powers



I am having difficulty translating a comic book hero to Champions. Go
figure!

His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_.

Anyone familiar with this guy?

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From burleson@genesisnet.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:02:55 -0500
From: Burleson's <burleson@genesisnet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: San Angelo: City of Heroes



Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City of
Heroes" ?


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From Pat10355@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:14:53 EDT
From: Pat10355@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes

<<Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City of
Heroes" ?>>

San Angelo: City of Heroes is now at the printer, and is scheduled to debut
Friday, Aug. 7, at GenCon. It should hit the stores a week or so later. It's a
256-page book and carries a suggested retail price of $25.

If you mean "Is this book any good?" ... well, I happen to think so. But I'm a
little biased. :)

I believe several people on the list have seen the manuscript and they might
be willing to offer their opinions, though.

I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you might have about SA:CoH, and
I know Mark Arsenault, president of GRG, would be as well.

Patrick Sweeney

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From GoldRushG@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:27:57 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes

<< Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City of
Heroes" ? >>

  I posted an announcement here a few days ago (or so I thought). In any case,
it bears repeating. <G>

  We're pleased to announce that the much-anticipated SAN ANGELO: CITY OF
HEROES (SA:CoH) will make its debut at this year's GenCon! With much cajoling
and begging and such, we've arranged for the book to be shipped as soon as
it's off the press, and we expect it to arrive Friday (August 7th).

  This is the first Champions 4th Ed. "paper" book to be released in over a
year, and it's a whopping 256 pages packed with all the info you could want
about this brand new campaign setting. It's immediately usable as is, or can
easily be customized for your own campaign. You can get more info by visiting
our web site at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg, and check out the cover
while you're there.

  But now for the really exciting news...

  GenCon attendees who purchase a copy of SA:CoH will get not only the book,
signed by author Patrick Sweeney, but they will also receive a FREE copy of
the Champions Deluxe hardcover (sans HeroMaker)! That's right. Buy SA:CoH and
get a free copy of Champions Deluxe.

  "But what about those of us who can't make it to GenCon?"

  I'm glad you asked. Anyone who places a pre-order for SA:CoH by Sunday,
August 9th, will receive a copy of Champions Deluxe (sans HeroMaker) for just
$2 Shipping & Handling! That's a total cost of only $30 for both books!

  You can pay by check, money order or credit card (Visa/MC). See our web page
for more info (http://members.aol.com/goldrushg), or place a credit card order
by calling 1 (800) 936-4GRG. Pre-orders will be shipped as soon as we return
______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From GenCon, the week of August 10th.

  This offer is extended to customers on a first come, first served basis, and
only while supplies last. So act now. Order your copy of SAN ANGELO: CITY OF
HEROES today! Call 1 (800) 936-4GRG (4474) to order by credit card, or mail
your check or money order to: Gold Rush Games, PO Box 2531, Elk Grove, CA
95759.

  Or be the first to get your copy at GenCon! Come see us at booth #505, right
next to Hero Games!

  Be a Hero.

  Welcome to SAN ANGELO: CITY OF HEROES!

---------------------------------------------------------------
San Angelo: City of Heroes is a trademark of and copyright 1998 by Gold Rush
Games (http://members.aol.com/goldrushg). All rights reserved. Champions and
the Hero System are registered trademarks of Hero Games. Used under license.

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From HeroGames@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:27:01 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
To: KWilson411@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker  2.5


In a message dated 7/28/98 9:23:01 PM, KWilson411@aol.com writes:

>I am having a problem with a specific area of Heromaker.  When saving
>automatons, the information does not seem to be saved correctly and the
>numbers get thrown around.  By numbers I mean the   base points and exp
>points
>get totally messed up and the automaton powers are not on the character
>sheet
>(printed) however they still modify the characteristics like they are
supposed
>to.  I was hoping that when the next version came out it would fix the
>problem
>but I have not seen any more versions after 2.5.     Steve do you know
>if this
>could be fixed? 

There is a known bug in the automaton section, but no updates are planned.
However, we do have HERO Creator coming out for Gen Con (just next week!), and
that not only eliminates all the HeroMaker bugs, but adds some terrific new
features like importing pictures and being able to export to RTF and HTML (as
well as being a 32 bit Windows app). See our web site for details... we may be
able to get them up before we hit the convention trail next week.

-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 

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From HeroGames@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:31:44 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
To: burleson@genesisnet.net, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes


In a message dated 7/28/98 11:03:44 PM, burleson@genesisnet.net writes:

>Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City of
>Heroes" ?

Other than the fact that it's a 256 page, $25 book that's arriving a week from
Friday at Gen Con, it's a whole new campaign setting for Champions, and Kurt
Busiek of Astro City fame read the manuscript and really liked it, not much.
Gold Rush Games can doubtless tell you much, much more. The manuscript is very
well done, and the layouts I saw looked very cool. I expect it will be one of
the most useful Champions products for the GM, and a darned fun read for
players.

-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:43:07 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Time Travel

At 02:20 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>   Not that fictional time travel stories involving events that have
>already transpired in the real world will end up being wholly implausible.
>It'd be entirely plausible for a criminal to do research on what stocks
>have done the best over history, and then go back and set up a trust fund
>for himself, with instructions on what to buy and sell over the years.  The
>fund could buy reasonably small amounts of stock and rack up the millions
>over the past century without having much effect on the grand scheme of
>things.  Then, at a point after he leaves, the traveller could start living
>off the profits.  Of course, this constitutes insider trading, and could
>have serious effects on the modern-day economy if this was done too much.
>Similar plots could involve autographed Jackie Robinson rookie cards, or
>mint-condition copies of Action Comics #1.
Actually, our intrepid Time Traveller might not need to wait until after
his journey to reap his rewards.  I read a fine story where scientists were
sending messages into the past.  To verify that the messages were being
recieved, the sent a request like this: "Go to First National Bank.  Take
out a safety deposit box.  Use the name Ira Rassenberger.  Pay for it for
the next thirty years.  Put in a note saying Hello."  They then went and
checked, and found the note.  Then they realized that their request message
hadn't been sent yet.  It was in the pile of things to send, but it hadn't
been sent.  One scientist wondered what would happen if they _didn't send
the message, but was convinced that continued communication was more
important than the answer to his question.
To a ridiculous extreme, a Scientist could hatch a plan to invest and build
a huge bankroll.  Let's say he is working in July 1998.  He decides that as
the final instruction, the trustees are to contact him in July 1998 and
turn the money over to him.  There is a knock on the door.  The trustees'
lawyers have come to turn over the money.  He then uses the money to fund
research into Time Travel, bulids a machine, goes back in time, and begins
investing.  Bootstrap levitation.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:29:52 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 02:26 PM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> And lots of flaky theories, some of which may prove to be true.  Physics
>> is also famous for self contradiction and Law by Fiat.  As an example of
>> the latter, it has been proposed that time travel is impossable not
>> because observed laws prohibit it (quite the opposite is true) but
>> because no one knows what would happen if you kill your own grandpa in
>> the past.
>
>The belief is that the Universe will not allow that to occour in the first
>place.  Effects always follow causes.  For time travel backwards to occour
>would create a situation in which effects preceed causes, which cannot
>happen.
>
Says who?  Last I heard, european physicists had conducted an experiment
using two particles that must add to a given energy amount.  Though I am
far from understanding their experiment, the basics are that one particle
goes to one distant destination, and the other goes somewhere else.  When
the particle that has the greatest distance to travel arrives at its
destination, its energy is measured.  Schrodinger(spelling appologies) I
believe postulated that the energy of both particles would not be fixed
until one of them was measured.  This experiment was billed (in Popular
Science) as proof of that theory.  The part I really don't get is: somehow
they felt they had detected a change in the first particle when the second
particle was measured.  The important part is that one of the physicists
working on this said that they had an effect that occurred _before_ its cause.
I don't claim that this is fact, or even proven.  But I have seen no proof
that effects preceding causes "cannot happen".

Time travel that might work:
Assume there is a wormhole connecting two points in space.  This might be
possable.  No assume that one end is fixed in place while the other end
moves around a bit.  This is also possable.  Since moving objects
experience time differently than stationary ones, time is moving at
different rates at the opposite ends of the wormhole.  Therefore, it is
possable that you might come one end before you entered the other.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:36 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

At 12:03 AM 7/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What is Limited Power: Blade?
>
Beats Me.  Where's it from?

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From IQJason@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:43:40 EDT
From: IQJason@aol.com
To: burleson@genesisnet.net, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re:  Weird Powers


In a message dated 7/29/98 6:04:48 AM, you wrote:

<<His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_. Anyone familiar with
this guy?>>

Think so, although I stopped reading DV8 when Campbell left.
If I'm not mistaken, Powerhaus is the one that gets huge when agitated or
otherwise exposed to emotional energy. Sounds like Growth with a limitation.
At least, I think I've got the right character.

Are you doing the whole team? I'd love to see a write-up for the others,
particularly Copycat.

yours,
-J


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 10:49:15 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) Revisited - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:27:22 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>In regards to the question of Flight (Wings), with a maxium weight
>capacity being casual STR and the speed of flight limited by the ammount
>carried:
>
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> How about increasing the END used instead?
>
>	The END used for STR or Flight?  In the case of STR, would it be a
>Limitation on STR?  ...or would it be a limitation on Flight?

For flight. This idea came from the Encumbrance chart in the
HSR/Fantasy Hero.

>	The SFX I was thinking of would be wings that were 'weaker' than
>the character's mighty musculature. While I'm thinking of giving the
>character a 30 STR, she couldn't preform such feats as carrying a small
>car while flying (because the wings would buckle under the weight).

Surely you mean 'not large enough'? IRL a bird's carrying capacity is
related to the size of its wings - look how big a swan's or an eagle's
wings are.

>	In the HERO Bestiary, are there any limitations on any of the 
>Avian creatures?  For example, in AD&D, Dragons can't fly after they loose
>more than %50 of their HP, or certain gossamer winged cretures may have
>'Fragile' wings.  

This would be an additional Limitation.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:11:05 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

At 04:22 PM 7/28/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:52 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>>>>Speaking of sushi, mr greenwade you really should check to 
>>>>see if the cartrige has an expiration date. Otherwise the 
>>>>peace plan will NEVER get off the ground. 
>>>
>>>   But what about Naomi?
>>
>>Hey!  I know that one...from somewhere in the dim past...but wasn't it --
>>
>>"...and what of Naomi?"
>
>   Not if you're thinking of the "Love of Chair" bit from "The Electric
>Company."


"... AND, what about Naomi?"

"Love of Chair" was my favorite part of the show!
======================  =================================================
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead
======================  =================================================

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From mjo@dojo.mi.org Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike O'Connor <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Bye guys


:I've only been on the list for a short time and there've been some 
:intersting points raised (not counting that interminable nonsense about 
:100% Damage Reduction), but I'm finding the volume of traffic a bit much 
:to deal with: I only get serious computer time every two or three days, 
:and can't really justify spending three hours JUST to check my mail. 
:I've got a campaign to run...

It'd be really nice if there were a digest version of this list, for
people like me who mostly end up deleting threads they might be
interested in but they clutter the mailbox too much.  

-- 
 Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
 InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
 =--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"Homework, I command thee, BE DONE!"                                  -Calvin

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:57:59 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 11:48 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>I don't think I understand what you mean by "super background", but neither
>of the characters have any experiences as supers. It's the nature of the
>campaign. One of them is a gadgeteer but I'm making good progress with him
>so I'm not going to introduce him. I'll take some of these comments that
>are being tossed around and adapt them for him though.

   "Super background" was just a term I was using for what we usually call
"origin"; it fit into the other terminology we were using.  Sorry about the
confusion.

>Theres a one paragraph origin (sort of). Anyway, the Vulnerability to
>radiation is because the radiation kills the nanites faster than they can
>reproduce. There's also the possibility that the nanites don't work against
>radioactive targets but that's a limitation that the GM and I will toss
>around. The Secret ID in this case serves 2 functions. Hero seems to
>perform better with a mask (almost becomes a different person) and he wants
>to protect his research from falling into the hands of others before he's
>had a chance to refine it. Also, theres some flaw in the formula that
>requires more research. Sounds like an Addiction might work there but
>having lived with an addict that is one bit of reality that I despise and
>will not use.

   I'm not sure where you got the Addiction from, but it looks like you've
come up with some pretty good ideas here.

>For hunted/watched, I doubt that the University knows about the research.
>They know about the paper though. ***Again, would the collage students
>verify the former.*** It's possible that the paper or his activities
>attracted some attention although it would most likely be covert watching
>since public knowledge would bring patent sharks and job offers to spare (I
>think). Hmmmm.

   Yeah, they might be Watching him.  There might also be someone on the
outside who has learned of the nature of his research and wants to steal it
(which is a good premise for a Hunted).  Or, some religious nut could learn
about it, decide that the project is "against the edicts of God and
nature," and try to shut it down.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:05:41 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

At 01:56 AM 7/29/1998 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>At 12:03 AM 7/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>What is Limited Power: Blade?
>>
>Beats Me.  Where's it from?

   This is in Dark Champions, page 82.
   It's a -1/4 Limitation that signifies a metal blade that can't be used
to do things like cut through rock or metal, and gets dull if used
improperly.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:22:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Modifiers

At 07:01 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Remnant wrote:
>I just had either a good idea or a bad idea.  I can't figure out which.
>
>I thought it might be a good idea if we all submitted different Limitations
>and Advantages that we use in our game and the value of them that are not in
>the BBB or HSR.  I realize that this might start lots of argument over
>whether or not the values for the Power Modifiers are "correct." If
>everybody remembers that the value of the Power Modifiers often have to
>adjusted to be appropriate for each game then maybe the arguing won't get
>out of hand.  This might be a good resource for the newer players.  I often
>found articles in the Adventurer's Club to be very useful when I started
>playing.  If you think that a particular Modifier is confusing, a brief
>description could be helpful.

   I have a few that are on my website, particularly a distillation of "Can
Be Thrown" and "Range Limited by STR" in relation to object mass.
   I also use Sean Fannon's "Battlesuit" Limitation; it does slow things
down a tad from the complexity, but it's a nicely detailed piece of work
and represents quite nicely how battlesuits work in comics and other fiction.
   Aside from these two areas, though, I do have a few Advantages that I've
used with some success (though, I admit, not recently).
   One is Extended Armor Piercing.  This allows extra levels of Armor
Piercing to be bought at a successive +1/4 extra Advantage to halve
defenses more than once.  Thus, to cut defenses to one-quarter would be
+1/2 for the first AP plus +3/4 for the second, for a total of +1-1/4.  To
cut defenses to one-eighth would be an additional +1 Advantage, for a total
of +2-1/4.  (Note, though, that in a 60AP campaign the maximum damage this
could do is 5d6 and 3-1/2d6 respectively, making this good primarily as an
agent-buster.)  Levels of Hardened defenses eliminate the largest Armor
Piercings first.
   The other Advantage is Mental Paralysis, for +2.  The version of MP in
TUM was good, but suffered two weaknesses: a +1-3/4 Advantage is awkward to
manage, and the total of the three Advantages placed on it there (BOECV,
Transparent to Physical Attacks, and Works Against EGO) don't quite fully
place it in the Mental Powers category (Invisible Power Effects vs two
Senses, leaving it open to Mental Awareness, would be needed at the least).
 Either of these would be easily tolerable if not for the other, but I
think this fix handles both well.
   Along similar lines, I have also allowed "Regenerates Lost Limbs" as a
+1/2 Advantage for REC, Regeneration, and Healing Aid.  I haven't thought
much about also including other Regeneration elements from Fuzion, but I
think there's plenty of room for it, as well as a positive consensus.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From llwatts@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:33:02 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

>>What is Limited Power: Blade?
>>
>Beats Me.  Where's it from?
>

I think it was from Dark Champions, and of course I don't have that book
with me right now, but as I recall it's all the common sense limitations
for a knife/sword/meat cleaver/other blade weapon rolled into one: will
need regular sharpening, can't cut through a brick wall even if you roll
all 6s for damage, stuff like that.  I'll get my book out and post the
whole thing tonight if no one's beaten me to it.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:36:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> For that matter, it would be *theoretically*
> possible to get 125% Damage Reduction for four times the cost of 75%, thus
> *getting back* STUN and BODY when hit -- though just try getting that past
> any GM (even if it does cost 240 points per damage type, if resistant).

Of course, there you might be better off going witheither Absorbtion or
(if your GM allows it) xd6 Healing Aid, Damage Shield, self only.

That last one would be subject to interpretation...could one legitimately
put Damage Shield on an Aid, and have that Aid go off whenever he was hit?
Well, sure...but the important part here is, could he have it legally
target himself, rather than the person who hit him?  

Actaully, after a bit of thought, I think that falls under 'duplicating
other powers', and that Absorbtion would be what would have to be used... 

J, with 100%DR and Absorbtion, only vs. mailing list flames.

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:38:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: IQJason@aol.com
Cc: burleson@genesisnet.net, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re:  Weird Powers

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 IQJason@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/29/98 6:04:48 AM, you wrote:
> 
> <<His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_. Anyone familiar with
> this guy?>>
> 
> Think so, although I stopped reading DV8 when Campbell left.
> If I'm not mistaken, Powerhaus is the one that gets huge when agitated or
> otherwise exposed to emotional energy. Sounds like Growth with a limitation.
> At least, I think I've got the right character.

Could also be Accidental Change then...


J (no...the other one...)

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From dflacks@ican.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:01:29 -0400
From: dflacks <dflacks@ican.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Invulnerability vs 0 END


> From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
> To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Invulnerability vs 0 END
> Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 3:07 PM
> 
> Just to put the shoe on the other foot, I thought I'd constrast something
> absolute in the rules that I don't care for.  Yes, I know 0 END is an
> advantage, but it is an absolute one.
> 
> A little background:  The rational for magic in my campaign is that magic
> permeates all things.  A spellcaster can, using known rituals and/or
> prayers form a link to one or more sources of magic power (put a spell
into
> a VPP).  Forming such a connection requires no energy, but does require
> time.  Using the connection does require energy, as well as other
> requirements to safely call forth the energy in a set pattern (all the
> other limitations on the spells).
> 
> My problem was that normal END rules work very well for this setup, but 0
> END isn't quite right.  Some spells may require very little END, but they
> do still require some.  Furthermore, there is too big a jump from 1/2 END
> to 0 END (in this setup).  For awhile, we simply played normal END rules
> with the caveat that 0 END wasn't truly 0 END.  Rather, it was "nigh 0
> END," which meant a character could run around for a short period of time
> without paying END, but eventually LTE would kick in.  This method
required
> GM fiat to determine how long a character could maintain a spell and how
> much LTE he would lose if he exceeded that time.
> 
> What I finally came up with was making all 0 END on spells actually be 1
> END per turn.  Persistent powers automatically start at 1 END per turn
when
> used in spells.  This costs the same +1/2 advantage as normal 0 END. 
Each
> step up the time chart costs an additional +1/4.  So 1 END per 5 minutes
is
> +1.  After 1 END/minute, there really isn't much of a combat effect, but
> such spells cost 1 LTE every +2 intervals on the chart.  That is, a spell
> with 1 END per 5 minutes costs 1 LTE every hour (using the modified time
> chart in Almanac I).  BTW, spells costs a fraction of a slot based on
their
> END usage, so END isn't the only reason to buy the advantage up. 1 END
per
> turn takes half a slot and it halves each +1/4 from there.
> 
> Now for many campaigns, such a construct would just be academic and
useless
> extra mechanics.  Thus the 0 END for +1/2 absolute mechanic makes sense. 
> Yet, obviously someone (me) is finding some use in the more complicated
> alternative, or I wouldn't have bothered to construct it--especially
given
> that I'm rabid about reducing unneeded complexity.
> 
            <<SNIP>>
> 
> Steven Mitchell
> mdmitche@advicom.net

Not to long ago I found an interesting take on 0 END cost on someone's
Fantasy Hero Web Page.  Sorry I can't remember who, so Thanks whoever you
are.

Instead of 0 END cost for +1/2 there was Initial END cost only for +1/2. 
Initial END cost spells cost twice the END to cast, but do not cost any END
to maintain.  For example Wind Wall force field spell might require 4 END
each time the caster's phase comes up, or 8 END to start and none after
that.  This means that all spell require END.  Since in my campaign spells
can not be Persistent, the caster has the option of designing a spell to be
constant, then pumping in a set amount of END and letting it run, or using
the Initial END cost advantage.  With the advantage he can keep his spell
up as long as he stays conscious.  Of course It still counts as one of the
spells he can have active simultaneously.

The distinction is particularly important as my campaign has a form of
Magical Awareness, similar to Mental Awareness.  All spell casters have it
and non-spell casters can purchase it.  This allows them to sense when END
is being burned to power a spell.  So they can not tell if an item is
magical unless it is active.  Similarly, a constant spell that is burn a
preloaded amount of END would be detectable throughout its duration while
an Initial END cost spell would only be detectable when cast.  That why
wizards need a detect magic spell.


Daniel Flacks   dflacks@ican.net

Give me ambiguity or give me something else

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From dmattingly@platsoft.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:48:39 -0700
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Power Modifiers

> >I thought it might be a good idea if we all submitted different
> Limitations
> >and Advantages that we use in our game and the value of them that are
>not in the BBB or HSR.

One of my favorites for fast healers is to buy +10 STUN with the lim, "Only
When Unconscious," at -1. This raises the recovery level by 1. For example,
a character at -15 STUN will recover once per turn. The same character with
this added stun will recover as if he were at -5 STUN, so would still
recover every phase (but would still have to recover from -15).


Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org

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From johndesmarais@yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:48:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers

---Burleson's  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> I am having difficulty translating a comic book hero to Champions. Go
> figure!
> 
> His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_.
> 
> Anyone familiar with this guy?

Nope, but if you can describe the character's power clearly and
concisely I'm sure that the folks on the list can tell you how to
write him up (actually, the excercise of coming up with a clear power
description will usually make things clearer for yourself as well).


==




====================================
        John Desmarais  
====================================
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From johndesmarais@yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes

---Burleson's  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City
of
> Heroes" ?

Ya gotta love this list.  Ask a question about a book and get
responses from the author, the publisher, and the folks that own the
game system.

-=>John D.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From johndesmarais@yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Bye guys

---Mike O'Connor  wrote:
>
> 
> :I've only been on the list for a short time and there've been some 
> :intersting points raised (not counting that interminable nonsense
about 
> :100% Damage Reduction), but I'm finding the volume of traffic a bit
much 
> :to deal with: I only get serious computer time every two or three
days, 
> :and can't really justify spending three hours JUST to check my mail. 
> :I've got a campaign to run...
> 
> It'd be really nice if there were a digest version of this list, for
> people like me who mostly end up deleting threads they might be
> interested in but they clutter the mailbox too much.  

I'm working on it, I'm working on it...


==




====================================
        John Desmarais  
====================================
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:56:07 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 5:57 AM -0700 7/29/98, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:48 PM 7/28/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
[snip]
>>Also, theres some flaw in the formula that
>>requires more research. Sounds like an Addiction might work there but
>>having lived with an addict that is one bit of reality that I despise and
>>will not use.
>
>   I'm not sure where you got the Addiction from, but it looks like you've
>come up with some pretty good ideas here.
>

Sorry, that would be Dependence. Addiction is from another system. Anyway.
there has to be something wrong with the formula or he would release it to
the world. A possible downside is that the formula is addicting. Rather
than having the nanites replenish themselves automatically he could become
"addicted" to them which would require regular doses of nanites to
replenish those that had been used up. Not something I care for but someone
else might like the idea.

One fluff disad I thought of was some sort of massive food requirement.
Seems kind of cheesy though.

Laterz,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From backflash@mindspring.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:21:13 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
To: Burleson <burleson@genesisnet.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers



Burleson's wrote:

> I am having difficulty translating a comic book hero to Champions. Go
> figure!
>
> His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_.
>
> Anyone familiar with this guy?

    I read DV8, so yes, I am very familiar with Powerhaus. I have been
reading DV8 since issue #1. However, I would not call any of the members
of that group heroes. More of a group of paranormal lost souls who are
being manipulated by a pretty sick supervillainess.


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From rambler@sowest.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:28:23 -0800
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

<snip>

>Time travel that might work:
>Assume there is a wormhole connecting two points in space.  This might be
>possable.  No assume that one end is fixed in place while the other end
>moves around a bit.  This is also possable.  Since moving objects
>experience time differently than stationary ones, time is moving at
>different rates at the opposite ends of the wormhole.  Therefore, it is
>possable that you might come one end before you entered the other.

OK, we've gone from arguing about 100% DR to theoretical phyisics.  Life
around here is getting more interesting every day. <grin>

Eric



Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************



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From lizard@mrlizard.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:11:27 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

I recently DLed the version 5.0 of the Fuzion rules from the Hero Games web
site, because I keep hoping they'll come out with a Fuzion I like. I have
to complain about the carelessness of the editing, because such implies
contempt for your customers. The .pdf file is RIDDLED with "FILL BLANK" and
"XX" markers, indicating text to be filled in, which never was. This is
very grating to see coming from a professional company with nearly 20 years
experience, and makes me nervous (to bring this on-topic) about what I'm
going to get when I plonk down my money for Hero 5.

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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 13:38:07 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
Subject: Re: House Rules: (was Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with)

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:59:02 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:

<snip>

>What I do object to is "holy reverence" towards the existing rules.  As in
>anything outside the rules is not fit to be discussed within the same
>sanctuary.

Amen!

>A modest proposal:  What if Hero collected a set of short, optional rules,
>from this list and elsewhere.  Then edited them to pick out the more
>interesting ones (and especially those with good explanations).  Let's say
>they final list came down to about 30 pages.  Then we traveled back in time
>and replaced the Spirit Rules with those 30 pages.  In everyone's opinion,
>would this make a stronger, more interesting, better Almancac?  Could we
>have a vote?

Stand by while I call the fire brigade.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:17:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) Revisited - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

> >	The END used for STR or Flight?  In the case of STR, would it be a
> >Limitation on STR?  ...or would it be a limitation on Flight?

	Would you use a similar granular Limitation on Flight?
AP's of STR required to carry weight negate AP's of Flight?  Similarily,
can Turn Modes be reduced granularily?  How much would each of these
Limitations cost?
> 
> For flight. This idea came from the Encumbrance chart in the
> HSR/Fantasy Hero.
> 
	How much does this Limitation cost?  What is it defined as?

> >	The SFX I was thinking of would be wings that were 'weaker' than
> >the character's mighty musculature. While I'm thinking of giving the
> >character a 30 STR, she couldn't preform such feats as carrying a small
> >car while flying (because the wings would buckle under the weight).
> 
> Surely you mean 'not large enough'? IRL a bird's carrying capacity is
> related to the size of its wings - look how big a swan's or an eagle's
> wings are.

	I stand corrected.  

> >	In the HERO Bestiary, are there any limitations on any of the 
> >Avian creatures?  For example, in AD&D, Dragons can't fly after they loose
> >more than %50 of their HP, or certain gossamer winged cretures may have
> >'Fragile' wings.  

> This would be an additional Limitation.

	On the Power or on the character as a Phys. Lim?



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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 18:28:34 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) Revisited - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:17:56 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>> >	The END used for STR or Flight?  In the case of STR, would it be a
>> >Limitation on STR?  ...or would it be a limitation on Flight?
>
>	Would you use a similar granular Limitation on Flight?
>AP's of STR required to carry weight negate AP's of Flight?  Similarily,
>can Turn Modes be reduced granularily?  How much would each of these
>Limitations cost?
>> 
>> For flight. This idea came from the Encumbrance chart in the
>> HSR/Fantasy Hero.
>> 
>	How much does this Limitation cost?  What is it defined as?

It's a side-effect (note, not Side Effect :) of using Str

For your task, I'd put Str as a -0 Limitation (obviously) and 1/2 Str
as a -1/4 Limitation

>> >	In the HERO Bestiary, are there any limitations on any of the 
>> >Avian creatures?  For example, in AD&D, Dragons can't fly after they loose
>> >more than %50 of their HP, or certain gossamer winged cretures may have
>> >'Fragile' wings.  
>
>> This would be an additional Limitation.
>
>	On the Power or on the character as a Phys. Lim?

On the power. Alternatively, you could use the Impairing/Disabling
rules and give the wings 1 or 2 hit locations.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From HeroGames@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:22:32 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
To: lizard@mrlizard.com, champ-l@sysabend.org, BruceHH@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.


In a message dated 7/29/98 10:03:18 AM, lizard@mrlizard.com writes:

>I recently DLed the version 5.0 of the Fuzion rules from the Hero Games
>web
>site, because I keep hoping they'll come out with a Fuzion I like. I have
>to complain about the carelessness of the editing, because such implies
>contempt for your customers. The .pdf file is RIDDLED with "FILL BLANK"
>and
>"XX" markers, indicating text to be filled in, which never was. This is
>very grating to see coming from a professional company with nearly 20 years
>experience, and makes me nervous (to bring this on-topic) about what I'm
>going to get when I plonk down my money for Hero 5.
>

Your remarks are off-base, because you don't understand the background behind
the latest rules posting. We've been beseiged by requests for an updated
Fuzion posting, but Bruce Harlick has been kept too busy with new products (5
new releases at Gen Con!) to have the time to work on it. Despite his work
load, he managed to take the AT VOTOMS Fuzion file and post it in unedited
form at the request of numerous users, as an interim step until he can have
time to actually process the file properly. This has led to great satisfaction
on the Fuzion mailing list, as they have *something* to work from for the time
being. Now, he could have just waited longer to post the actual edited
version, but since there's no way he can get to that for another month at
minimum, he felt this was a necessary step.

Perhaps the file should be labeled more clearly to prevent misunderstandings
such as yours; I'll request that Bruce take care of that. But I think having
the file in rough form available is better than not having it at all.

-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 

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From lizard@mrlizard.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:32:05 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: HeroGames@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org, BruceHH@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

At 01:22 PM 7/29/98 EDT, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
>Perhaps the file should be labeled more clearly to prevent misunderstandings
>such as yours; I'll request that Bruce take care of that. But I think having
>the file in rough form available is better than not having it at all.
>
Such a message would have caused me to make no comments at all;I'm quite
forgiving to an acknowledged 'rough draft' 'prerelease' 'beta test' or
what-have-you. I was irked because this looked like the long-awaited (18
months!) update/consolidation/etc of the Fuzion rules from the old RTG site.

I will say the rules seem better in this version -- I don't know if
anything major has changed, or if my tastes have, but Fuzion looks more
appealing now than it did in April '97. Perhaps the fact that this release
is clearly a set of 'core rules', not a stripped-down Champions, is what
causes me to have better feelings. (That, and I've been looking through my
old RTal stuff and thinking about how easy it would be convert it to Fuzion...)

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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:38:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

Greetings,
	I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
can challenge supers in a fight.
	Some manuevers I'm working on are...

	The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.

	In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
look like the running of the bulls (or young girls chasing after the
Beetles), but our skilled friend here can chuck the members of the crowd
aside like oh so many cocktail shrimp.  I was thinking Area of Effect
Radius, Autofire, No Range- but what would limit the radius to be only the
hexes surrounding the character (This was mentioned a few time in posts as
of late...).  And what power would allow you to do the grab/throw?  Buy
the Advantages on STR?

	A *hyper foreknuckle strike* would also be nice, where the
character flies through the air, the first two foreknuckles of his fist
extended, and smashes them into his opponents chest/head.  I was thinking
of using HKA, AP, Penetrating or an NND that does BODY (yipe!); but the
power wouldn't work against heroes in power suits, or those who wore hard
armor.  I could see it working against resistant but -fleshy- characters
(such as Ogre).  What sort of a Lim. would that be?

	Other powers, such as Armor and DR, RSR Acrobatics, with
appropiate Lims. to simulate a super dodge and Missle Reflection I think
would also work well.

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From m00bi800@mcmail.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:18:48 +0100
From: Mr Michael Pegg <m00bi800@mcmail.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Another Bye

Gonna have to unsubscibe and leave the group for a bit, I'm moving and
the computer's going into storage for a month or so.
Sorry for the question on 'Desoild to mind attacks only' a while back,
made for a good discussion thou.

Catch you all later.

Mike

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: FFH - Monster Trainer

I'm back at work on my Final Fantasy Hero game, after a hiatus caused by
switching jobs.  After doing a bit of research I discovered a character
type in FFV called the 'Monster Trainer' which I thought had a neat
ability - capturing and training a monster to work with the party.  So, of
course, I set about pondering how to do this in HERO.

I came up with two basic ideas:

1) Mind Control (with limitations).  
   Pros: Simulates the effect quite well.
   Cons: Might be too easy to break free of training.  No limit on number
         or power level of beasts controlled (unless added somehow in
         limitations).  Have to constantly keep rerolling and ordering the
         creatures around.

2) Variable Power Pool, only for followers
   Pros: controls power level of creatures quite well.  Creatures are sure
         to remain loyal.
   Cons: Might be a bit dodgy on the rules angle.

I like the way the VPP 'feels', but has anyone ever encountered something
like this before?  I'm looking for past experience on whether or not it
would be a Good Idea or a Big Mistake.

If one of these followers died, then by the rules, the character would
lose that portion of his Power Pool, correct?  (I have to decide if I like
that or not...part of me does, since by letting his 'friends' die he's
also harming his mysic connection to animals.)

I also wouldn't mind opinions on how to write up the pool and the
limitation levels.  Here's what I've got:

VPP, only for Followers (-1?), only changes in specified circumstances
(monster has been caught and trained) (-??), probably takes extra time to
change...the skill roll to change would be Monster Training, of course
(PRE-based).

I actually may combine the two methods above - the Mind Control for short
term effects, and the Follower pool for monsters the Trainer has taught to
accompany the party.

J, who has only two players at the moment.  Interested 
   Final Fantasy & HERO fans in my area (just north of 
   Boston) can feel free to e-mail me...

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From dmattingly@platsoft.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:24:49 -0700
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: FFH - Monster Trainer

I've seen a character with a VPP of followers, can only change at
base/jungle. It was a Tarzan/Kraven type, who would bring a lion one week, a
python the next, an elephant the next, a pair toucans the next, etc. It
worked out very well.


Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org

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______________________________________________________________________________



From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:46:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker  2.5

At 02:27 AM 7/29/1998 EDT, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>There is a known bug in the automaton section, but no updates are planned.
>However, we do have HERO Creator coming out for Gen Con (just next week!),
and
>that not only eliminates all the HeroMaker bugs, but adds some terrific new
>features like importing pictures and being able to export to RTF and HTML (as
>well as being a 32 bit Windows app). See our web site for details... we
may be
>able to get them up before we hit the convention trail next week.

   I think that, in a way, we can consider Hero Creator to be the
equivalent of HeroMaker 3.0, just under a slightly different name --
especially considering that HC comes with a utility to convert HeroMaker
files.
   Speaking for myself, I'm only waiting for HC to appear in the online
store so I can buy it (and a small handful of other things, such as PRIMUS).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From rambler@sowest.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:21:22 -0800
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

>Greetings,
>	I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
>normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
>can challenge supers in a fight.
>	Some manuevers I'm working on are...
>
>	The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
>decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
>your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
>I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
>behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
>combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
>grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
>I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.
>

I would give him 360 degree, Targeting, Spatial Awareness.  That way he
could punch the guy running up behind him.



Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************



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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:34:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:

> I've seen a character with a VPP of followers, can only change at
> base/jungle. It was a Tarzan/Kraven type, who would bring a lion one week, a
> python the next, an elephant the next, a pair toucans the next, etc. It
> worked out very well.

Wonderful! Do you by chance remember how his power was purchased exactly,
or was I pretty close?  I'm especially curious about the limitation level
for 'only for Followers'...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From dmattingly@platsoft.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:48:40 -0700
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: FFH - Monster Trainer

>>It was a Tarzan/Kraven type

>Do you by chance remember how his power was purchased exactly,
>I'm especially curious about the limitation level for 'only for
Followers'...

It wasn't my character, and this was under the Third Edition rules (when
VPPs had just come out), but I think there was no limitation -- it was just
declared as special effects. Which kind of balances out the fact that
Followers in a VPP is sketchy. If it weren't for the Change at Base
limitation, the VPP probably wouldn't have been allowed.


Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:11:46 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

At 01:38 PM 7/29/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Greetings,
> I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
>normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
>can challenge supers in a fight.
> Some manuevers I'm working on are...
>
> The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
>decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
>your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
>I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
>behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
>combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
>grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
>I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.

   This is, like, when the thug is sneaking up behind the hero (forgive me
if this is a rather loose application of the word), and the hero just
reaches out and bops the thug without looking, right?  I've seen this done
elsewhere too, like the animated Batman....
   Basically, for the strike itself, I'd use a regular Martial Arts strike.
 The unusual ability comes in being able to sense the thug.  I think
Spatial Awareness is probably the best choice for this.

> In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
>an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
>look like the running of the bulls (or young girls chasing after the
>Beetles), but our skilled friend here can chuck the members of the crowd
>aside like oh so many cocktail shrimp.  I was thinking Area of Effect
>Radius, Autofire, No Range- but what would limit the radius to be only the
>hexes surrounding the character (This was mentioned a few time in posts as
>of late...).  And what power would allow you to do the grab/throw?  Buy
>the Advantages on STR?

   What's the precise visualization on this?  The impression I get from the
above is that a crowd presses toward the hero, and the hero reaches out and
knocks the entire crowd over.
   In this case, get a Shove (or possibly Throw) maneuver, and then buy the
Area Effect (probably either Hex or Line) on the amount of effective STR
that would be used for the maneuver.  For instance, if the character is 20
STR and uses a Shove maneuver from TUMA (+15 STR) with +4 DCs on his
Martial Arts, he'd be using an effective STR of 55, so the Advantage would
be based on that.  It would be bought as a "naked" Power Advantage, not
directly connected to a Power or Maneuver.

> A *hyper foreknuckle strike* would also be nice, where the
>character flies through the air, the first two foreknuckles of his fist
>extended, and smashes them into his opponents chest/head.  I was thinking
>of using HKA, AP, Penetrating or an NND that does BODY (yipe!); but the
>power wouldn't work against heroes in power suits, or those who wore hard
>armor.  I could see it working against resistant but -fleshy- characters
>(such as Ogre).  What sort of a Lim. would that be?

   That would depend on the setting, but given that you're apparently using
a superhero universe, I'd just make "wearing external armor" the defense of
the NND (or, at least, one of them).

> Other powers, such as Armor and DR, RSR Acrobatics, with
>appropiate Lims. to simulate a super dodge and Missle Reflection I think
>would also work well.

   I'd also suggest some Superleap.  I'm no expert on anime (that would be
Michael Surbrook's strong suit), but I've never seen a Japanese
super-martial artist without it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


______________________________________________________________________________
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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:16:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

At 09:11 AM 7/29/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>I recently DLed the version 5.0 of the Fuzion rules from the Hero Games web
>site, because I keep hoping they'll come out with a Fuzion I like. I have
>to complain about the carelessness of the editing, because such implies
>contempt for your customers. The .pdf file is RIDDLED with "FILL BLANK" and
>"XX" markers, indicating text to be filled in, which never was. This is
>very grating to see coming from a professional company with nearly 20 years
>experience, and makes me nervous (to bring this on-topic) about what I'm
>going to get when I plonk down my money for Hero 5.

   Don't panic.  This has already been a topic of discussion, come and
gone, on the Fuzion Mailing List.
   Basically, this document was done as a rush job as Bruce prepares for
GenCon.  Only two of the six things scheduled for release at that time are
finished, and while the other four are on schedule there's still a lot of
work to do.  Bruce mainly did this as a courtesy for some folks on the FML
who were repeatedly asking for it.
   Bruce is well aware of these glitches, and has stated that he will be
fixing them, but *after* GenCon.
   As for comparing this to Hero5, don't worry; that's Steve Long's work,
and he's giving that his *full* attention, not trying to do fifty other
things at the same time.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:32:53 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 09:56 AM 7/29/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>>   I'm not sure where you got the Addiction from, but it looks like you've
>>come up with some pretty good ideas here.
>
>Sorry, that would be Dependence. Addiction is from another system. Anyway.

   Ah, I see.  Okay.

>there has to be something wrong with the formula or he would release it to
>the world. A possible downside is that the formula is addicting. Rather
>than having the nanites replenish themselves automatically he could become
>"addicted" to them which would require regular doses of nanites to
>replenish those that had been used up. Not something I care for but someone
>else might like the idea.

   Don't confuse the two terms; there's much more to drug and alcohol
addictions than whatever effects might be suffered in withdrawal.  On the
other hand, if a character is dependent on something for continued
survival, that's hardly an addiction in any sense we'd think of it.  It's
more like Aquaman's Dependence on being immersed in water periodically, or
Tony Stark's dependence on the pacemaker in his armor (depending on which
version of the story you listen to, and what period of his life you're
considering).

>One fluff disad I thought of was some sort of massive food requirement.
>Seems kind of cheesy though.

   I've done similar things in the past.  This could probably be bought as
a 5-point Physical Limitation, or as a Vulnerability to starvation effects
(which would be an Uncommon "attack").  Or, if it's a really severe problem
-- possibly to the point of being comical -- both.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:40:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes

At 07:46 AM 7/29/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Burleson's  wrote:
>> Any one heard anything about the Gold Rush product 'San Angelo: City of
>> Heroes" ?
>
>Ya gotta love this list.  Ask a question about a book and get
>responses from the author, the publisher, and the folks that own the
>game system.

   What say we give kudos to those three individuals, wot?  :-]
   Yay, Patrick!  Yay, Mark!  Yay, Steve!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


______________________________________________________________________________
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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:42:18 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: FFH - Monster Trainer

At 11:24 AM 7/29/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I've seen a character with a VPP of followers, can only change at
>base/jungle. It was a Tarzan/Kraven type, who would bring a lion one week, a
>python the next, an elephant the next, a pair toucans the next, etc. It
>worked out very well.

   Actually, this one sounds more like a straight Follower Perk with some
sort of "Variable Result" Advantage.
   However, I liked the Followers VPP quite a bit; it can be used to have
one really big Follower, or several smaller Followers of different types,
or anything in between, varying according to need.  (I liked it well
enough, in fact, that I've put it in my Hero Archive!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:22:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 	The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
> decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
> your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
> I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
> behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
> combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
> grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
> I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.

Damage Shield only workls if they hit you.  Try 360 Degree Spatial
Awarness and the 10 point version of Defense Maneuver from UMA.
 
> 	In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
> an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
> look like the running of the bulls (or young girls chasing after the
> Beetles), but our skilled friend here can chuck the members of the crowd
> aside like oh so many cocktail shrimp.  I was thinking Area of Effect
> Radius, Autofire, No Range- but what would limit the radius to be only the
> hexes surrounding the character (This was mentioned a few time in posts as
> of late...).  And what power would allow you to do the grab/throw?  Buy
> the Advantages on STR?

One suggestion would be a limited form of TK (only to throw to the
ground).  For a cinematic martial arts campaign I was in, we developed
AoE: Adjacent Hexes, whih was a +3/4 Advantage affecting the 6 hexes
surrounding the character, but leaving the center hex unaffected, which
might be the effectyou want.
 
> 	A *hyper foreknuckle strike* would also be nice, where the
> character flies through the air, the first two foreknuckles of his fist
> extended, and smashes them into his opponents chest/head.  I was thinking
> of using HKA, AP, Penetrating or an NND that does BODY (yipe!); but the
> power wouldn't work against heroes in power suits, or those who wore hard
> armor.  I could see it working against resistant but -fleshy- characters
> (such as Ogre).  What sort of a Lim. would that be?

Why an HKA?  In most HK and anime flics this would just be a Passing
Strike (+1 OCV, STR + v/5; Full Move, 5 points).  Buy a lot of Superleap
and maybe some extra dice of Hand Attack (linked to the use of this
maneuver) and you're all set.
 
> 	Other powers, such as Armor and DR, RSR Acrobatics, with
> appropiate Lims. to simulate a super dodge and Missle Reflection I think
> would also work well.

my website has an article entitled Wuxia Hero, which contains a mess of
ideas for characters like this.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 29 Jul 1998 16:38:16 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Greenwade writes:

>    It's a -1/4 Limitation that signifies a metal blade that can't be used
> to do things like cut through rock or metal, and gets dull if used
> improperly.

Ugh.

I've seen sword blades that certainly can cut through rock (or perhaps
"shatter" is a more accurate description) without being significantly
damaged.

And all the knives I've owned have grown dull with *proper* use.

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
                                    \ 

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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:31:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

On 29 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Bob Greenwade writes:
> 
> >    It's a -1/4 Limitation that signifies a metal blade that can't be used
> > to do things like cut through rock or metal, and gets dull if used
> > improperly.
> 
> I've seen sword blades that certainly can cut through rock (or perhaps
> "shatter" is a more accurate description) without being significantly
> damaged.

What kind of blade? What kind of rock?  Where did you see it? Are these
the swords that the HERO folks saw when they wrote the rules so that you
can cut through a castle wall with a sword? 8)
 
> And all the knives I've owned have grown dull with *proper* use.

But they dull more quickly with /im/proper use, I'm sure.  

IMHO, 'Blade' would in part reflect the fact that the weapon needed upkeep
of some sort - honing & polishing, etc, to stay in 'fighting trim'.  If
you put it away bloody or wet, it's going to damage the blade.  If you use
it to chop firewood, it'll dull, and if you use it to chop stones, it'll
dull really fast, possibly break, and probably not do much useful. 

It's one of those 'realistic' limitations like 'Real armor', that don't
get used a lot, and never* in a superheroic setting. 

J

* - And now someone will disprove me with one exampl, once again reminding
me to 'never say never'. 

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From john.desmarais@ibm.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:26:02 -0500
From: John Desmarais <john.desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:31:06 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On 29 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> Bob Greenwade writes:
>> 
>> >    It's a -1/4 Limitation that signifies a metal blade that can't be used
>> > to do things like cut through rock or metal, and gets dull if used
>> > improperly.
>> 
>> I've seen sword blades that certainly can cut through rock (or perhaps
>> "shatter" is a more accurate description) without being significantly
>> damaged.
>
>What kind of blade? What kind of rock?  Where did you see it? Are these
>the swords that the HERO folks saw when they wrote the rules so that you
>can cut through a castle wall with a sword? 8)

Well, I have this 20 pound monstrosity leaning against my wall that could certainly 
shatter most rocks smaller than a bowling ball (larger ones too, but it would probably 
take multiple strikes).  I shudder to think what the blade would look like when finished 
though.


-= John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> =-
-=
-= Keeper of the Champions Mailing List.
-= http://www.sysabend.org/champions


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From ravenpub@southwind.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:58:43 -0500
From: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System
Newsgroups: list.champ

On 28 Jul 1998 00:29:51 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>> Why not?  They're skill levels, and the Rulesbook says that skill levels
>> are character abilities.
>
>Because Skill Levels with Combat Driving are not Skill Levels with a
>vehicle's Turn Mode.

Who said anything about Combat Driving?  My character has skill levels
in Flight.  According to the rules, he can apply those to any focus
which lends him Flight.

>> This is the very reason that I think these abilities shouldn't be
>> represnted with skill levels.  Because it makes no sense for the
>> character to buy them.  Skills are *character* things.
>
>Then how do you propose to model the fact that an M-16 is more accurate
>than an AK-47?

Buy 'em built-in skill levels.  Why aren't you reading what I write?
More than once I've said that you can buy skills through foci...  I'm
not arguing that.  I'm saying that

>Skills are no more (or less) "character things" than anything else in the
>book.  They are a game mechanic with special effects that are *usually*

The Rulesbook says they're character things.  "Skills are abilities that
characters possess."  Skills that characters cannot buy seem illogical
to me.

>character things.  But just because something is usually used for a
>particular purpose does not mean that it must always be used that way.  You
>do that, you are falling into the trap of using the mechanic's name, rather
>than its effect, when trying to model a special effect.

Then why did we name them "skills" if they aren't skills?  If it's not a
skill, it's a talent or a power.

>Symmetry.  Skill levels affect one fundamental aspect of movement powers
>(lateral velocity) It stands to reason that skill levels should also affect
>the other (linear velocity).

I previously pointed out that I don't think Turn Mode should be affected
by skill, either.  And you insist that characters can't buy Turn Mode
for use on vehicles anyway, which is not apparent to me in the rules.

>Simplicity.  It does not introduce a new game mechanic.  It uses a
>mathematically simple variation of an existing game mechanic.

But why call it a skill?  You can easily say '+1" of acceleration for 2
points."  Calling it a skill actually makes it *more* complex,
especially if you have to point out that characters can't buy the skill
and use it on vehicles.

>Sanity.  Some normal people can run faster than others, and they can
>accelerate faster than others.

Can't argue that.  Now explain why this makes it necessary to represent
this with a skill.  Running faster isn't represented with a skill, why
should accelerating faster be such?

>But doubling base acceleration, the minimum level proposed, is absurd
>in all but a very few circumstances (like using starting blocks, which
>are only used for short sprints).  Besides, normals cannot buy power
>modifiers on what few powers they can have, but they certainly can buy
>skill levels.

I'm not arguing for my system (which I've begun to doubt the viability
of anyway).  I'm arguing against yours.  It's not a matter of one or the
other, it's a matter of your's not being suitable, regardless of the
suitability of mine.

Why can't normals buy power modfiers?  Where do the rules say that?
They've got the power and they can buy more of it, why can't they buy
modifiers?

(And why is doubling absurd?  (To argue my system for a moment.)
Champions is full of doublings, especially where movement is
concerned... non-combat multiples, and FTL Travel.  If lack of extra
acceleration has been a minor problem, why does an acceleration mechanic
need to represent such a fine grain?)

--
Carl D. Cravens (ravenpub@southwind.net)
Old beta-testers don't die, they just crash to DOS.

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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 01:11:14 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:38:20 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>	I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
>normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
>can challenge supers in a fight.

Mr Surbrook's your man here!
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 01:13:20 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>I like the way the VPP 'feels', but has anyone ever encountered something
>like this before?  I'm looking for past experience on whether or not it
>would be a Good Idea or a Big Mistake.
>
>If one of these followers died, then by the rules, the character would
>lose that portion of his Power Pool, correct?

No - that's why it's a _V_PP.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 01:10:08 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:38:20 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>Greetings,
>	I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
>normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
>can challenge supers in a fight.
>	Some manuevers I'm working on are...
>
>	The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
>decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
>your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
>I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
>behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
>combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
>grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
>I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.

Looks good.

>
>	In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
>an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
>look like the running of the bulls (or young girls chasing after the
>Beetles), but our skilled friend here can chuck the members of the crowd
>aside like oh so many cocktail shrimp.  I was thinking Area of Effect
>Radius, Autofire, No Range- but what would limit the radius to be only the
>hexes surrounding the character (This was mentioned a few time in posts as
>of late...).  And what power would allow you to do the grab/throw?  Buy
>the Advantages on STR?

AoE Radius, Selective Attack. Not sure if Personal Immunity is also
required. Partially Limit the Radius Advantage with Limited: Adjacent
hexes only.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:29:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> 
> >If one of these followers died, then by the rules, the character would
> >lose that portion of his Power Pool, correct?
> 
> No - that's why it's a _V_PP.

Maybe I'm under a misapprehension then...

If I have a VPP, and I make a power with (say) the OAF limitation, and
someone disarms me...I can just switch the points away from that power and
into something else?  If so, that doesn't seem like much of an OAF
limitation to me.  /Maybe/ an OIF.  Maybe.

It would seem like Followers would be much the same - by putting the
points into Follower, you're effectively getting certain limitations on
those points, which are why they come so cheaply.  If a Follower dies,
isn't it basically like losing an independant power? i.e. you lose the
points?  Or am I misinterpreting that as well?

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:36:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> > The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
> >decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
> >your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
> 
>    This is, like, when the thug is sneaking up behind the hero (forgive me
> if this is a rather loose application of the word), and the hero just
> reaches out and bops the thug without looking, right?  I've seen this done
> elsewhere too, like the animated Batman....

Yep.  Just like that.

> > In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
> >an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
> 
>    What's the precise visualization on this?  The impression I get from the
> above is that a crowd presses toward the hero, and the hero reaches out and
> knocks the entire crowd over.
	Actually, think of it as a group of ninjas on six sides of the
hero, and as each one advances, they are grabbed (by the wrist, arm, or
leg) and thrown outside of the defender's circle.  It is most certainly
supposed to be him grabbing and throwing each individual, using their own
momentum against them to intercept their advancement and send them on
their butts.	

>    That would depend on the setting, but given that you're apparently using
> a superhero universe, I'd just make "wearing external armor" the defense of
> the NND (or, at least, one of them).

	Works for me.

>    I'd also suggest some Superleap.  I'm no expert on anime (that would be
> Michael Surbrook's strong suit), but I've never seen a Japanese
> super-martial artist without it.

	I'd consider it, though I wouldn't want to make it any more than
any 'real' person's ability.



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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:43:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:

> Damage Shield only workls if they hit you.  Try 360 Degree Spatial
> Awarness and the 10 point version of Defense Maneuver from UMA.
	What does the 10 pt version do?

> One suggestion would be a limited form of TK (only to throw to the
> ground).  For a cinematic martial arts campaign I was in, we developed
> AoE: Adjacent Hexes, whih was a +3/4 Advantage affecting the 6 hexes
> surrounding the character, but leaving the center hex unaffected, which
> might be the effectyou want.
	Precisely what I'd want, but would any attacker entering the AoE
be affected by the TK?

> Why an HKA?  In most HK and anime flics this would just be a Passing
> Strike (+1 OCV, STR + v/5; Full Move, 5 points).  Buy a lot of Superleap
> and maybe some extra dice of Hand Attack (linked to the use of this
> maneuver) and you're all set.

	The *hyper foreknucle strike* is a finishing move, much like the
dreaded strikes seen in MA flicks... all neat and Bruce Lee like with the
shaking fist.  It one of those dealy -last resort- sacred knowledge
Chin-Na-ish/Dim Mak-ish lost through the centuries semi-chi based powers
of doom that can kill a man with a blow to the head... usually with blood
spurting from the ears and eyes.  Eww.  Probally paired with -Find
Weakness- (or, in fact, it could be an SFX of Find Weakness).


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:

> AoE Radius, Selective Attack. Not sure if Personal Immunity is also
> required. Partially Limit the Radius Advantage with Limited: Adjacent
> hexes only.

A note on this...Ninja Hero implies that the AE: Radius advantage on an
HKA is already limited to the hexes around you.

Personally, I (and I think several others, judging from other posts on
this list) think this is a load of hooey - the 'range' of an AoE attack is
the distance from you to the target hex...which is 0.  (If Aaron Allston's
interpretation were correct, you'd be better off buying a No Range AE RKA
with Str Adds (and for fewer points, to boot!) Therefore, the 'limited to
surrounding hexes' should be worth an additional limitation - probably
only a -1/4. 

Personal Immunity (or Hole in the Center) would indeed be required, unless
perhaps it was a sacrifice throw...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj



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From GoldRushG@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:16:31 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes

<< "...one of the most useful Champions products for the GM, and a darned fun
read for players." >>

  Hmm... Maybe we should use that in advertising. ;)

  Of course, I'm kind of partial top Kurt Busiek's quote and our own tag line,
"Remember when being a superhero was something wondrous? So do we." But, hey,
every little positive helps, right?

  Mark @ GRG

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From GoldRushG@aol.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:30:05 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

<< I have to complain about the carelessness of the editing, because such
implies
contempt for your customers.>>

  Not to excuse "sloppy" editing, but sometimes in the haste to get product
out to excited fans I have missed some things. For all of our hours and hours
of sweat and work editing San Angelo up to the day of sending it to the
printer, I suspect there will still be a few typos or boo boos in there.

  As for Fuzion, the PDF version may be a stripped version of the stuff
intended for print. As such, there are bound to be references to pages that
don't exist. To remove them and similar marks would mean reformatting the
entire document, skewing the layout, etc. For a free product, I think it's a
minimal issue. But that's just me. ;)

  Mark @ GRG

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From mirage@dhc.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:40:07 (-0600)
From: Robert Rutherford <mirage@dhc.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Hello,

Hello,

After almost a year off the list I've resubscribed and wanted to say hello.
I've relocated to Dallas and I'm looking for a Champions game, or players
interested in starting a game.  I already have a couple of possible players,
but I like a couple of more.

Thanks

--
+-----------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
|Rob Rutherford               |Mandatory Disclaimer:                      |
|A.K.A. mirage                |                                           |
|E-mail                       |If my views were those of my university    |
|mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu |my tuition wouldn't go up every year.      |
+-----------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
|           URL http://hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu/~mirage/home.html            |
+-----------------------------+-------------------------------------------+


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:56:42 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

At 09:11 AM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I recently DLed the version 5.0 of the Fuzion rules from the Hero Games web
>site, because I keep hoping they'll come out with a Fuzion I like. I have
>to complain about the carelessness of the editing, because such implies
>contempt for your customers. The .pdf file is RIDDLED with "FILL BLANK" and
>"XX" markers, indicating text to be filled in, which never was. This is
>very grating to see coming from a professional company with nearly 20 years
>experience, and makes me nervous (to bring this on-topic) about what I'm
>going to get when I plonk down my money for Hero 5.
>
Actually, the version 5.0 Fuzion was done in a hurry, to get it up before
GenCon.  Considering that Bruce is a really busy guy, we were all very
happy he did this and accepted his promise to finish/fix it after GenCon.
The "FILL BLANK" stuff is because these pages came straight out of Armored
Trooper VOTOMS, which the Fuzion list widely haied as the most readable
version of Fuzion, but the references to the VOTOMS world were not cleared
for free distribution and had to be (hastily) deleted.  Considering how
much money you had to "plonk down", I'd say you got a pretty good product.

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From kalten@herring.sandwich.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:22:48 -0400
From: Matt Korth <kalten@herring.sandwich.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

> For hunted/watched, I doubt that the University knows about the research.
> They know about the paper though. ***Again, would the collage students
> verify the former.*** It's possible that the paper or his activities
> attracted some attention although it would most likely be covert watching
> since public knowledge would bring patent sharks and job offers to spare
> (I think). Hmmmm.

There's another thing that he'd have to be aware of with regards to his 
research.  He may not have the rights to it.  IIRC most universities own 
the rights to anything their resources were used to develop; I know this 
is true of at least one major university (Michigan State, where I did my 
MS work).

--M

--
kalten@sandwich.net   http://www.sandwich.net/kalten
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. ***
"Officer, am I under arrest?"
"No, ma'am.  Stupidity's still legal."  --_High Incident_
LCU #1496 (TINLC)

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From kalten@herring.sandwich.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:22:48 -0400
From: Matt Korth <kalten@herring.sandwich.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

> At 08:05 AM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >- Take a mystery Hunted.  They're fun and challenging, and the GM
> >  gets to do all the work.  <snip>
> Of course, that only works if your GM wnats to do the work.  My GM wants
> to ban hunteds because the GM does all the work.

If he *really* wants to get rid of Hunteds, banning them isn't the way to 
go.  Hose the players with their Hunteds often enough, and they'll 
learn... :)

Case in point: My first character for *any* Hero System game had two 
Mystery Hunteds.  I've forgotten who the second one was (though I've got 
the character sheet around somewhere...).

The first one was Dr. Destroyer.

I haven't taken a 'mystery hunted' since.


--
kalten@sandwich.net   http://www.sandwich.net/kalten
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. ***
"Officer, am I under arrest?"
"No, ma'am.  Stupidity's still legal."  --_High Incident_
LCU #1496 (TINLC)

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:14:18 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 12:32 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>   Don't confuse the two terms; there's much more to drug and alcohol
>addictions than whatever effects might be suffered in withdrawal.  On the
>other hand, if a character is dependent on something for continued
>survival, that's hardly an addiction in any sense we'd think of it.  It's
>more like Aquaman's Dependence on being immersed in water periodically, or
>Tony Stark's dependence on the pacemaker in his armor (depending on which
>version of the story you listen to, and what period of his life you're
>considering).
>
Try it this way: Am I addicted to air?  No.  How about food, am I addicted
to food?  No.  If I am deprived of these things, will I take damage?  Yes.
I am Dependant on them.

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From llwatts@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:48:29 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

>For hunted/watched, I doubt that the University knows about the
research.
>They know about the paper though. ***Again, would the collage students
>verify the former.*** It's possible that the paper or his activities
>attracted some attention although it would most likely be covert
watching
>since public knowledge would bring patent sharks and job offers to 
>spare (I think). Hmmmm.

I believe master and doctoral work requires at least one advisor,
possibly a committee -- so at the least the university knows what the
character is _officially_ working on.  It's up to you how closely related
his private research and his degree work are, though unless this guy has
LS: Doesn't Sleep I don't see how he could run his private research and a
totally unrelated official research project AND go adventuring as well.

You're probably right about any interest generated by his research being
a Watched.  As I recall, theses and dissertations are printed, I think by
the accepting university, so interlibrary loan could probably turn up a
copy of his work.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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From rossrannells@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:05:30 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Carl D. Cravens" <ravenpub@southwind.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System



Carl D. Cravens wrote:

> On 22 Jul 1998 15:02:32 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
> >Then using a 3-point firearms skill level with handguns, submachineguns and
> >shoulder arms must make no sense to you, either.
>
> Do you attempt to paint me an idiot?  3-point firearms skill levels
> applying to handguns, submachineguns and shoulder arms has little to do
> with flight skill levels applying to increasing acceleration.  Skill in
> accurately pointing several types of firearms makes sense to me.  Skill
> in being able to make an airplane accelerate faster does not.  It's like
> saying that skill levels in firearms can make the bullets go faster.
>

The skill does not make the plane accerate faster, it lets the pilot take better
advantage of tailwind or minimize the effects of a headwinds which in turn allows the
plane to perform better then it shoule.  The planes thrust to wieght ratio is unchanged,
the speed at which it accerates is.  As I have stated before the thrust to wieght ratio
of a plane is a major contributor to a planes acceration, but it is not the only
contributor.  Skill levels are a good way to reflect some of the less tangable one,
whether they are the planes of the pilots skill levels.


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From why@superlink.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:55:07 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: "Vancian" Magic 

At 03:57 AM 7/25/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >> > Wish is just a lot of luck dice with a funky special effect. :-)
>> >>
>> >>         Nope.  Wish is "Contact, GM, 18-"  =]
>> >
>> Wish is Transform.  Transform this air into money.  Transform that dead guy
>> into a live one.  Transform the princess into a princess who's in love for
>> me(since feelings are intangible, I doubt they could be Transformed).
>
>	Which therefore makes Transform the wrong mechanic.  The way a
>AD&D-style of wish works is basically a request for a GM fiat, plain and
>simple.  How is this not "Contact (or Favor), GM"?

That's why I called it a lot of luck dice: which is also GM fiat.

  Joe


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From lizard@mrlizard.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:53:33 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
To: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Off Topic][Fuzion]Attn. Hero Games -- sloppy work.

I have only one more thing to say on this topic -- the general tone of
comments has been "It's free, stop whining." This is not a good attitude.

Software companies often give out free demos. If the demo is buggy, or
slow, or carelessly assembled, they almost certainly will lose sales. Some
people might be DLing the Fuzion 5.0 rules as their first exposure to
Fuzion -- maybe even their first exposure to Hero Games. ("Want a free
game? Click here!" is certainly a tempting come-on) If what they get is
poorly edited or just sloppy, they might think twice about putting down
real money for a product.

All it takes is a disclaimer or notice to the effect that "This is
pre-release and has not been edited. It is being given out free due to fan
demand and a more polished file will be made available soon", or words to
that effect.

I apologize for any toes I might have stepped on. My sole interest was that
Hero Games put its best face possible to the world. Obviously, since the
product WAS free, I'm not a 'disgruntled customer'.

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From burleson@genesisnet.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:32:54 -0500
From: Burleson's <burleson@genesisnet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers



----------
> From: John Desmarais <
> > 
> Nope, but if you can describe the character's power clearly and
> concisely I'm sure that the folks on the list can tell you how to
> write him up (actually, the excercise of coming up with a clear power
> description will usually make things clearer for yourself as well).
> 
> 

Well his intro bio says: "... is an empathic siphon, capable of converting
emotional energy into raw power, taking the form of increased muscle mass."

Clear as mother's milk to me.:)

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From burleson@genesisnet.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:26:28 -0500
From: Burleson's <burleson@genesisnet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers



----------
>
> <<His name is _Powerhaus_ from the team called _DV8_. Anyone familiar
with
> this guy?>>
> 
> Think so, although I stopped reading DV8 when Campbell left.
> If I'm not mistaken, Powerhaus is the one that gets huge when agitated or
> otherwise exposed to emotional energy. Sounds like Growth with a
limitation.
> At least, I think I've got the right character.
> 
> Are you doing the whole team? I'd love to see a write-up for the others,
> particularly Copycat.


I'm attempting to. It's a challenging endeavor. Are you able to accept
HeroMaker files?


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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:37:12 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

I'm doing the unforgivable and combining a couple of posts here. The first
section is Universities and Hunted/Watched and the second is
Dependency/Addiction.

SB
------------------------------------------

At 10:22 PM -0400 7/29/98, Matt Korth wrote:
>> For hunted/watched, I doubt that the University knows about the research.
>> They know about the paper though. ***Again, would the collage students
>> verify the former.*** It's possible that the paper or his activities
>> attracted some attention although it would most likely be covert watching
>> since public knowledge would bring patent sharks and job offers to spare
>> (I think). Hmmmm.
>
>There's another thing that he'd have to be aware of with regards to his
>research.  He may not have the rights to it.  IIRC most universities own
>the rights to anything their resources were used to develop; I know this
>is true of at least one major university (Michigan State, where I did my
>MS work).
>
>--M

At 10:48 PM -0400 7/29/98, Leah L Watts wrote:
[snip]
>I believe master and doctoral work requires at least one advisor,
>possibly a committee -- so at the least the university knows what the
>character is _officially_ working on.  It's up to you how closely related
>his private research and his degree work are, though unless this guy has
>LS: Doesn't Sleep I don't see how he could run his private research and a
>totally unrelated official research project AND go adventuring as well.
>
>You're probably right about any interest generated by his research being
>a Watched.  As I recall, theses and dissertations are printed, I think by
>the accepting university, so interlibrary loan could probably turn up a
>copy of his work.
>
>Leah
>

Ooooo!! I have some collage types here. ;) Seriously, this is a good thing
because I know zip about degrees and such. Anyway, here's the deal. Hero is
a bright but basically normal person prior to becoming Nanotized in the 6th
or 7th year of collage. Basically, towards the end of his masters degree.
Up until 14 he's basically directionless although his mother pushes him in
the towards high paying, prestigious jobs. At 14 he reads some books by
Robert Heinlien, Methuselah' Children, Lazarus Long etc. Bingo! He has a
direction. Medical/Biological research (Life extention and miracle cures).
Okay, so it's a bit thin but work with me here. Anyway he starts in right
away, reading books, experimenting, all that good stuff. His initial
experiments model the books using selective breeding with mice to try and
duplicate the effects described in the stories. He also does frog
dissecting and other such things which thrill his mother and gross out his
sister. He learns fast and as time goes by his experiments become more
sophisticated until he hits upon the nano-tech idea in his second year of
collage. Not a really new idea but he sees ways that it can be done. Now
here's some points:

1) This *has* to be a one time or limited event. Some flaw in the formula
that requires further reseach before being released to the public. To
release this sort of thing into the GMs world would dramatically change it
and as a player I shouldn't be able to do that (and don't want to).

2) Along with a noble desire to do something for humanity, he also has a
not so noble craving for wealth and fame. He's been relatively poor most of
his life and his mother has been encouraging him seek position. He wants to
help people but he want his slice of the pie too.

3) Just a side note here. I *think* a masters degree is 3 years (total 7).
At the start of the campaign Hero has just finished his masters and is
going on to his doctorate. Prior to the completion of his masters there is
no adventuring. He'll be moving to another state where he'll study,
research, and adventure. Methinks he's going to end up a perpetual student
like Peter Parker though because he's not going to have much time.

Alright, on to Hunted/Watched. I've been giving some thought to Hero's
origin. A hunted or watched would add a lot to the character I think if
done right. The only problem is that what I've come up with so far will
drastically change the character. Originally I had planned on Hero being,
ummm, careless and experimenting on himself. This could still happen or he
could be forced to take it through neccessity.

Enter villainous old man. Rich, powerfull, no scruples, and dying. He finds
out about the project and decides he needs it for himself. Since I don't
want this stuff loose in the campaign we can't use the reasonable approach
of bribes or hostages here. Villain can't get his hands on the stuff or
he's finished as a hunted. That leaves brute force.

Villain has his henchmen go to Hero's house and lab to get the information.
Afterwards, being villainous, they torch both places in order to hide the
evidence. The scenerio that comes to mind most often is that Hero's mother
and sister are at home and killed in the fire. Hero is at the lab and is
mortally wounded. The only hope for him is to take the Nano-Tech serum to
stay alive and drag himself out of the building. This leaves him alive and
know so that the villain can continue to be a Hunted. It also removes Mom
and Sis from the hostage arena.

Naturally, this would have a serious impact on Hero's psyche. It would most
likely produce a darker character than I had planned on running. Of course,
due to some forethought on Hero's part, the formula the villains grab
doesn't work. Villain assumes it hasn't been finished and commences to
watch/hunt Hero. Nasty but interesting.

I don't think a Watched by University will work though. Not only will he be
changing locations but the U would most likely release the information of
his research. The old problem of not damaging the GMs world. Ordinarily I
think Hero would go along with it but for the GMs sake I'll say he hides
the research not wanting to share the glory with the other kiddies.

That's about all I can think of right now. If anyone has suggestion I'll be
happy to take them. Question though. For the collage students. Based on the
information I've given, what would you call the degree he's going for.
Research oriented, medical for sure, and the nanites are biological rather
than mechanical.

--------------

At 10:14 PM -0400 7/29/98, geoff heald wrote:
>At 12:32 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>   Don't confuse the two terms; there's much more to drug and alcohol
>>addictions than whatever effects might be suffered in withdrawal.  On the
>>other hand, if a character is dependent on something for continued
>>survival, that's hardly an addiction in any sense we'd think of it.  It's
>>more like Aquaman's Dependence on being immersed in water periodically, or
>>Tony Stark's dependence on the pacemaker in his armor (depending on which
>>version of the story you listen to, and what period of his life you're
>>considering).
>>
>Try it this way: Am I addicted to air?  No.  How about food, am I addicted
>to food?  No.  If I am deprived of these things, will I take damage?  Yes.
>I am Dependant on them.

Actually I haven't confused the terms. I did the Aquaman water schtick a
while back and have no problem with that. Cool character even if he did
require a sea type setting. Okay on land but watch out if you ever tangled
with him in water.

Needing regular injections of nanites however strikes to close to the
addiction mark for comfort as far as I'm concerned. I think I'd take unluck
first and I *don't* take unluck. Been burned far more frequently than the
disad was worth by GMs who use it to get out of trouble or as plot devices.

That's all for now.

Laterz,
Schlepp Boy :)



-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From tesseract@pclink.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:07:13 -0500
From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers

At 1:32 AM -0500 7/30/98, Burleson's wrote:
>----------
>> From: John Desmarais <
>> >
>> Nope, but if you can describe the character's power clearly and
>> concisely I'm sure that the folks on the list can tell you how to
>> write him up (actually, the excercise of coming up with a clear power
>> description will usually make things clearer for yourself as well).
>>
>>
>
>Well his intro bio says: "... is an empathic siphon, capable of converting
>emotional energy into raw power, taking the form of increased muscle mass."
>
>Clear as mother's milk to me.:)

A note from the peanut gallery. This sounds like either an Aid or a
Transfer depending on whether he affects people or not. If he simply sops
up emotions without affecting anyone then it's an Aid to STR. If he drains
emotions and converts it then I'd say it's an Transfer EGO to STR. There
might be some additional body and con as well depending on whther he gets
harder to kill or stun.

The number of dice determine how fast he goes up and his STR top end is
determined by extra points.

To simulate higher levels absorption for stronger emotions use the Empath
table in the Ultimate Mentalist as a guide. Full cost for dice that work
with low end emotions and a -1/4 for each step on the dice that are only
uasble with higher degrees of emotion so that a full blown gonna kill you
berzerker rage is a -3/4.

Limitation on the power as a whole would be a -1/4 (at best) limitation
"Only in the presence of emotion" or something like that. I don't know if
he has to direct his power. If he only needs to be within a certain range
then an Area Effect might be required. Sounds expensive to me but then most
comic book characters are.

Hope this helps,
Schlepp Boy :)


-----------------------------------------------
Why is it that when some bloodthirsty creature clearly
threatens the planetary exploration team, some damn fool
always wanders off and gets himself killed?
	James Patrick Kelly
-----------------------------------------------



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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 10:23:25 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>,
    HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:54 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> AoE Radius, Selective Attack. Not sure if Personal Immunity is also
>> required. Partially Limit the Radius Advantage with Limited: Adjacent
>> hexes only.
>
>A note on this...Ninja Hero implies that the AE: Radius advantage on an
>HKA is already limited to the hexes around you.
>
>Personally, I (and I think several others, judging from other posts on
>this list) think this is a load of hooey - the 'range' of an AoE attack is
>the distance from you to the target hex...which is 0. 

Hang on, this is Radius, not Range.

>Personal Immunity (or Hole in the Center) would indeed be required, unless
>perhaps it was a sacrifice throw...

I'm not sure, but doesn't AE: Selective Attack cover this? You only
roll to hit the targets you want, which obviously does not include
yourself. Or does it?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:53:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 
> > Damage Shield only workls if they hit you.  Try 360 Degree Spatial
> > Awarness and the 10 point version of Defense Maneuver from UMA.

> 	What does the 10 pt version do?

Having cleverly lent my copy of UMA out, I can't give you specifics.
(lesse)

Basically it gives you your full DCV vs all attacks (out of LOS or not)
and it doesn't require a half-move to do.
 
> > One suggestion would be a limited form of TK (only to throw to the
> > ground).  For a cinematic martial arts campaign I was in, we developed
> > AoE: Adjacent Hexes, whih was a +3/4 Advantage affecting the 6 hexes
> > surrounding the character, but leaving the center hex unaffected, which
> > might be the effect you want.

> 	Precisely what I'd want, but would any attacker entering the AoE
> be affected by the TK?

No, unless you made it a continous effect.  You could only affect people
on your phase when you attack.  Make it continous and you'll be pushing
people aside for as long as the END holds out.  I wouldn't allow this last
effect, personally.
 
> > Why an HKA?  In most HK and anime flics this would just be a Passing
> > Strike (+1 OCV, STR + v/5; Full Move, 5 points).  Buy a lot of Superleap
> > and maybe some extra dice of Hand Attack (linked to the use of this
> > maneuver) and you're all set.
> 
> 	The *hyper foreknucle strike* is a finishing move, much like the
> dreaded strikes seen in MA flicks... all neat and Bruce Lee like with the
> shaking fist.  

In most Bruce flics I'd call that a pushed MA Strike, or the use of levels
to increase damage.  As for a finihsing move, you could build yourself a
move like this using a combination of Hand Attack, Extra END and
limitations like "must perform 1/2 move".

> It one of those dealy -last resort- sacred knowledge
> Chin-Na-ish/Dim Mak-ish lost through the centuries semi-chi based powers
> of doom that can kill a man with a blow to the head... usually with blood
> spurting from the ears and eyes.  Eww.  Probally paired with -Find
> Weakness- (or, in fact, it could be an SFX of Find Weakness).

That's not what I think of when I hear 'hyper-horehead knuckle', but I get
the picture.  If you want to shatter people with a single blow, but a lot
of HA with appropriate lims (Extra END and Incantations (name of attack)
are good), or a HKA with the same mods.  Use AP instead of Find Weakness,
as it presumes your chi will shatter your opponents defences naturally.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From ghoyle1@airmail.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:02:21 -0500
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Nauseating Smells

What's the best way to represent fighting in an area filled with a really nauseating smell?

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:54 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> >
> >> AoE Radius, Selective Attack. Not sure if Personal Immunity is also
> >> required. Partially Limit the Radius Advantage with Limited: Adjacent
> >> hexes only.
> >
> >A note on this...Ninja Hero implies that the AE: Radius advantage on an
> >HKA is already limited to the hexes around you.
> >
> >Personally, I (and I think several others, judging from other posts on
> >this list) think this is a load of hooey - the 'range' of an AoE attack is
> >the distance from you to the target hex...which is 0. 
> 
> Hang on, this is Radius, not Range.

Exactly.  HKAs have 'no range', but NH interpreted that to be 'no radius'
as well.  It said that basically an AE: Radius HKA would only affect your
hex and the hexes around you, unless you had (for example)  stretching or
something similar. 

/I/ figured that that was being hit twice for the same thing (the 'no
range' portion of HKA) - after all, 'no range' on an AE RKA just means
that the 'target hex' has to be yours or right next to yours - not that
all of the affected hexes need to be.

Is that more clear?
 
> >Personal Immunity (or Hole in the Center) would indeed be required, unless
> >perhaps it was a sacrifice throw...
> 
> I'm not sure, but doesn't AE: Selective Attack cover this? You only
> roll to hit the targets you want, which obviously does not include
> yourself. Or does it?

My bad.  I forgot about 'selective', cos the other powers I've done like
this were AE: Radius, and AE: nonselective, both of which did need PI.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:57:32 -500
From: Vance Scott <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: vances@sympatico.ca
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Flight (Wings) - Limitations or Phys Lim on weight capacity?

> 	I'm designing a character who has Flight (SFX Wings).  However,
> this particular character has a maxium weight capacity of his casual STR.
> In addition, I thought lessening the velocity of his flight with an
> increasing burden would be appropiate for the character concept.
> 	I was wondering if these limitations would be best represented by
> Limitations on Flight or Phys Lims.

What you want to do is buy some of your flight with a limitation 
doesn't work if carrying more than X weight. You and your GM will 
have to work out the value of the limitation based on the weight that 
effects your flight speed. The limitations should be a small one, 
-1/4. Most of the time you won't be carrying anything, or anyone so 
this isn't that much of a limitation.

> 	As a side question, is there any way to increase your 'casual
> STR', as would be the case for the SFX 'extremely developed plyometric
> strength.'

+30 Strength, 
 -2 Only usable as casual strength, 
-----
 10

Of course you can only use half of that strength as casual. Buying 
increased casual strength to counter the casual limitation on your 
flight is probably inappropriate though.



Vance Scott

vances@sympatico.ca

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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:40:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: A site to offend everyone.

You thought the opening to USM was bad?

HAH!

That was nothing.  Go here:

http://www.jyu.fi/~np/rpg/DnD/satangame.html

And *really* be offended!!!

...

Oh...

by the way...

this is a...

JOKE!!!

Funny and sick, but a joke.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:12 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nauseating Smells

At 10:02 AM 7/30/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>What's the best way to represent fighting in an area filled with a really
nauseating smell?
>

Is this an environmental concern or a power?

If the smell is simply a function of the environment, I'd probably require
an EGO roll to stay in the area (modified by the intensity of the smell and
any relevent psych lims). Naturally, other smell PER rolls (if they should
happen to come up) would take a penalty. If the smell was really, really,
bad, I might give it one or two dice of NND damage, and require another EGO
roll to resist vomiting - which would kill your DCV (not to mention your PRE.)

If this is a power we're discussing, I'd consider a Flash vs. Smell, a Mind
Control to flee or vomit, and an NND attack, in some combination. Linked,
of course. Could anything be more nauseating than another Linked debate?

Yet another approach just struck me as I wrote this - how about Darkness
vs. Smell? Even the halved DCV would be appropriate (due to nausea.)


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From ghoyle1@airmail.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:51:48 -0500
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Streamlining Mass Combat

Back in an old issue of AC there was a system to streamline combat, where=
 you basically figured up the levels at which the NPCs would be hurt,=
 stunned, etc. before the combat began then just checked them off when they=
 took a certain amount of damage. Can anyone summarize this systemn for me?=
 Or, if not, do you have any system which works to make running battles=
 quicker and easier? I'd rather focus on what's going on than on=
 bookkeeping.

Thanks,

Guy


Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:44:06 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: "Vancian" Magic 

At 10:55 PM 7/29/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 03:57 AM 7/25/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Which therefore makes Transform the wrong mechanic.  The way a
>>AD&D-style of wish works is basically a request for a GM fiat, plain and
>>simple.  How is this not "Contact (or Favor), GM"?
>
>That's why I called it a lot of luck dice: which is also GM fiat.

   And if that Luck costs END to use, can you Push it?
   (Or should I not go there?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


______________________________________________________________________________
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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:19:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers

At 01:32 AM 7/30/1998 -0500, Burleson's wrote:
>> From: John Desmarais <
>> > 
>> Nope, but if you can describe the character's power clearly and
>> concisely I'm sure that the folks on the list can tell you how to
>> write him up (actually, the excercise of coming up with a clear power
>> description will usually make things clearer for yourself as well).
>
>Well his intro bio says: "... is an empathic siphon, capable of converting
>emotional energy into raw power, taking the form of increased muscle mass."
>
>Clear as mother's milk to me.:)

   Sounds to me like a combination of Powers, with the following
possibilities depending on how it's portrayed in the story (with which I'm
absolutely unfamiliar):
   1.  Density Increase, partially limited for Only when
Angry/Enranged/Berserk.
   2.  Aid to STR &/or DI, must be around highly emotional situations
   3.  Absorption of Mental Attacks, to STR &/or DI, possibly Emotion-Based
Only.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:46:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

At 08:36 PM 7/29/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> > In the cinematic tradition of Akido, I want the character to have
>> >an attack that can stop multiple attackers...  sure, the onslaught could
>> 
>>    What's the precise visualization on this?  The impression I get from the
>> above is that a crowd presses toward the hero, and the hero reaches out and
>> knocks the entire crowd over.
> Actually, think of it as a group of ninjas on six sides of the
>hero, and as each one advances, they are grabbed (by the wrist, arm, or
>leg) and thrown outside of the defender's circle.  It is most certainly
>supposed to be him grabbing and throwing each individual, using their own
>momentum against them to intercept their advancement and send them on
>their butts. 

   Sounds like a Sweep of a Martial Throw to me.  It could probably be done
with Skill Levels vs Sweep.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:15:38 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

At 07:29 PM 7/29/1998 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> 
>> >If one of these followers died, then by the rules, the character would
>> >lose that portion of his Power Pool, correct?
>> 
>> No - that's why it's a _V_PP.
>
>Maybe I'm under a misapprehension then...
>
>If I have a VPP, and I make a power with (say) the OAF limitation, and
>someone disarms me...I can just switch the points away from that power and
>into something else?  If so, that doesn't seem like much of an OAF
>limitation to me.  /Maybe/ an OIF.  Maybe.

   You've lost those points *until* you get into a situation where you
could normally change your points.

>It would seem like Followers would be much the same - by putting the
>points into Follower, you're effectively getting certain limitations on
>those points, which are why they come so cheaply.  If a Follower dies,
>isn't it basically like losing an independant power? i.e. you lose the
>points?  Or am I misinterpreting that as well?

   If a VPP Follower dies, then you're without the Follower until you can
get into a situation where you'd normally be able to change Followers.  In
the example given by Dave of a Tarzan/Kraven type, it'd be when the
character next goes to his base, or into the jungle.
   Just because the elephant dies doesn't mean he can't come back later
with four chimpanzees and a gorilla.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:12:27 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 02:37 AM 7/30/1998 -0500, Schlepp Boy wrote:
>Okay, so it's a bit thin but work with me here. Anyway he starts in right
>away, reading books, experimenting, all that good stuff. His initial
>experiments model the books using selective breeding with mice to try and
>duplicate the effects described in the stories. He also does frog
>dissecting and other such things which thrill his mother and gross out his
>sister.

   Okay, here ya go.  His sister gets so grossed out by this experimenting
on animals that she becomes a rabid, radical animal-rights activist.  She
forms a group called the Vegan Regime, and sends her terrorist squads out
to destroy all abusers of innocent animals, expecially that twerp brother
of hers.
   All right, I'm being facetious on the details (though who knows that you
won't like them enough to go for it, eh?), but this does demonstrate how
some passing little thing can be expanded into a viable Disadvantage.
   (And now that I think of it, the Vegan Regime sounds like a good
organization for Cascade Champions....)

>1) This *has* to be a one time or limited event. Some flaw in the formula
>that requires further reseach before being released to the public. To
>release this sort of thing into the GMs world would dramatically change it
>and as a player I shouldn't be able to do that (and don't want to).

   Maybe what happened was actually an accident, and he's still trying to
figure out how it can be safely duplicated.

>2) Along with a noble desire to do something for humanity, he also has a
>not so noble craving for wealth and fame. He's been relatively poor most of
>his life and his mother has been encouraging him seek position. He wants to
>help people but he want his slice of the pie too.

   There's a good Psych Limit right there (but I suspect you already knew
that).

>3) Just a side note here. I *think* a masters degree is 3 years (total 7).
>At the start of the campaign Hero has just finished his masters and is
>going on to his doctorate. Prior to the completion of his masters there is
>no adventuring. He'll be moving to another state where he'll study,
>research, and adventure. Methinks he's going to end up a perpetual student
>like Peter Parker though because he's not going to have much time.

   Actually, Master's degrees are usually 1-2 years, depending on the
program.  (At least, that was my observation when I attended Western Oregon
State College, and later worked at Oregon State University.)

>Villain has his henchmen go to Hero's house and lab to get the information.
>Afterwards, being villainous, they torch both places in order to hide the
>evidence. The scenerio that comes to mind most often is that Hero's mother
>and sister are at home and killed in the fire. Hero is at the lab and is
>mortally wounded. The only hope for him is to take the Nano-Tech serum to
>stay alive and drag himself out of the building. This leaves him alive and
>know so that the villain can continue to be a Hunted. It also removes Mom
>and Sis from the hostage arena.

   Actually, aside from my above (facetious) detailing on what can be done
with Sis, it may be viable to leave Mom in the picture.  If Mom was badly
hurt in the fire, that may increase her point value as a DNPC.  That mean
old man may have other reasons for not simply using her as a hostage -- or
he may do so, only to trigger some hidden Enraged (When Family is
Intentionally Endangered, or some such) that the Hero has.  Boost his
Powers by about 25%, Only When Enraged (-1/2), and there's a good reason to
not do that again.

>Naturally, this would have a serious impact on Hero's psyche. It would most
>likely produce a darker character than I had planned on running. Of course,
>due to some forethought on Hero's part, the formula the villains grab
>doesn't work. Villain assumes it hasn't been finished and commences to
>watch/hunt Hero. Nasty but interesting.

   Don't worry overmuch about giving dark aspects to four-color heroes.
Even Superman, the prototype four-color Boy Scout hero, has had his quirks
(the Golden Age one tended to use excessive force, and the Silver Age one
tended to be brash and make bad assumptions; I don't know enough about the
Post-Modern Superman to say much on him, but he does seem to have a problem
with pride).  As long as his overall attitude is an idealistic one, he
should come out OK.

>I don't think a Watched by University will work though. Not only will he be
>changing locations but the U would most likely release the information of
>his research. The old problem of not damaging the GMs world. Ordinarily I
>think Hero would go along with it but for the GMs sake I'll say he hides
>the research not wanting to share the glory with the other kiddies.

   It would clearly be a low-value Watched (3 points' worth: As Powerful,
NCI, Mild, Limited Geography, 8-).

>That's about all I can think of right now. If anyone has suggestion I'll be
>happy to take them. Question though. For the collage students. Based on the
>information I've given, what would you call the degree he's going for.
>Research oriented, medical for sure, and the nanites are biological rather
>than mechanical.

   He's probably in biophysics; at least that's what I'd assume.
   (And BTW, there's no A in "college."  A "collage" is a piece of art.)
:-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 18:27:46 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>,
    HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:54 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> >On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> >
>> >> AoE Radius, Selective Attack. Not sure if Personal Immunity is also
>> >> required. Partially Limit the Radius Advantage with Limited: Adjacent
>> >> hexes only.
>> >
>> >A note on this...Ninja Hero implies that the AE: Radius advantage on an
>> >HKA is already limited to the hexes around you.
>> >
>> >Personally, I (and I think several others, judging from other posts on
>> >this list) think this is a load of hooey - the 'range' of an AoE attack is
>> >the distance from you to the target hex...which is 0. 
>> 
>> Hang on, this is Radius, not Range.
>
>Exactly.  HKAs have 'no range', but NH interpreted that to be 'no radius'
>as well.  It said that basically an AE: Radius HKA would only affect your
>hex and the hexes around you, unless you had (for example)  stretching or
>something similar. 

Hmmm... not sure I agree with that.

>/I/ figured that that was being hit twice for the same thing (the 'no
>range' portion of HKA) - after all, 'no range' on an AE RKA just means
>that the 'target hex' has to be yours or right next to yours - not that
>all of the affected hexes need to be.
>
>Is that more clear?

The difference is that you can add Str to a HKA but not a no-range RKA.

>> >Personal Immunity (or Hole in the Center) would indeed be required, unless
>> >perhaps it was a sacrifice throw...
>> 
>> I'm not sure, but doesn't AE: Selective Attack cover this? You only
>> roll to hit the targets you want, which obviously does not include
>> yourself. Or does it?
>
>My bad.  I forgot about 'selective', cos the other powers I've done like
>this were AE: Radius, and AE: nonselective, both of which did need PI.

Right.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 10:32:31 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:29:50 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> 
>> >If one of these followers died, then by the rules, the character would
>> >lose that portion of his Power Pool, correct?
>> 
>> No - that's why it's a _V_PP.
>
>Maybe I'm under a misapprehension then...
>
>If I have a VPP, and I make a power with (say) the OAF limitation, and
>someone disarms me...I can just switch the points away from that power and
>into something else?  If so, that doesn't seem like much of an OAF
>limitation to me.  /Maybe/ an OIF.  Maybe.

Of course you can - as long as you've paid for the ability to change it
instantaneously.

>It would seem like Followers would be much the same - by putting the
>points into Follower, you're effectively getting certain limitations on
>those points, which are why they come so cheaply.  If a Follower dies,
>isn't it basically like losing an independant power? i.e. you lose the
>points?  Or am I misinterpreting that as well?

Not if they're in a VPP. Remember, you're paying 50% extra for this.
Note that replacing a follower is typically not an instant event. You
could make it a RP opportunity. "Kid, I've had my eye on you for a
little while. How'd you like to learn to be The Masked Marvel?"


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:26:39 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>


>Greetings,
> I'm working on an NPC for my upcoming game who appears to be a
>normal human, but whose martial skills are so unbelieveabaly great that he
>can challenge supers in a fight.
> Some manuevers I'm working on are...
>
> The -'I can't see you in my line of sight, but because you
>decided to sneak up behind me I'll hit you with the back of my fist in
>your face and it will hurt.'- move.  Damage Shield presents some problems.
>I'm not sure wether I should Limit the DS to cover only a 180 degree arc
>behind the character.  Also, it would activate in combat to individuals in
>combat selectively.  It wouldn't work if the character was bound or
>grabbed.  I need to figure out if any of these attributes on the power set
>I want deserve Limitations and at what point cost.


One possibility is a very good Danger Sense in combat. If he makes his roll
by 1/2, he can strike at full OCV. Nothing is said about having to look
first.

This fits in with such things as "Cannot be snuck up on in fight" and "Not
caught by surprise moves", which also fit the character in question.

Filksinger


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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:28:24 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>geoff heald writes:
>
>> Things fall.  That's a fact.  Air has mass.  That's a fact.  Physics has
>> lots of facts.
>
>If you are going to argue this, get your terminology straight.
>
>Physics has no facts, just repeated observations.

Incorrect. If something is observed to occur, that it has occured is a fact.
That it will continue to occur, why it did occur, or that it must occur is a
hypothesis, theory, or law.

>An hypothesis is an untested idea.
>
>A theory is an hypothesis that has been subjected to experiment and
>scrutiny and appears to be valid.
>
>A law is a theory that is assumed to be valid in all cases within a
>particular frame of reference.
>
>Acceleration due to gravity is not a fact; it is a theory.

That the acceleration has occured in the past is a fact; that it is due to
gravity, or that it will continue into the future, is a theory.

>Matter has mass
>is not a fact; it is a theory.

Matter has been observed to have mass, therefore it is a fact. It is a
theory that it must have mass, or that it will continue to have mass, or
that it has always possessed mass.

>> And lots of flaky theories, some of which may prove to be true.  Physics
>> is also famous for self contradiction and Law by Fiat.  As an example of
>> the latter, it has been proposed that time travel is impossable not
>> because observed laws prohibit it (quite the opposite is true) but
>> because no one knows what would happen if you kill your own grandpa in
>> the past.
>
>The belief is that the Universe will not allow that to occour in the first
>place.  Effects always follow causes.  For time travel backwards to occour
>would create a situation in which effects preceed causes, which cannot
>happen.


First you claim that there are no facts, then you make a statement of dogma
as an absolute?

There is no evidence so far that causes cannot preceed effects. That is
merely the observations to date.

>> Science decided that there are no naked singularities because if there
>> were, all of our physical laws must be local rather than universal
>
>Which we already know to be the case.  Specific relativity.
>

Ceasar: Forgive him. He is a barbarian, and believes that the customs of his
tribe are the laws of the universe.

Filksinger



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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:48:36 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Time Travel

From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>

>To a ridiculous extreme, a Scientist could hatch a plan to invest and build
>a huge bankroll.  Let's say he is working in July 1998.  He decides that as
>the final instruction, the trustees are to contact him in July 1998 and
>turn the money over to him.  There is a knock on the door.  The trustees'
>lawyers have come to turn over the money.  He then uses the money to fund
>research into Time Travel, bulids a machine, goes back in time, and begins
>investing.  Bootstrap levitation.

There was a story of a scientist who invented a theory of time travel, but
needed money for the actual work. He made a decision to send himself a
package after he finished, telling him what he needed to get rich. He
received the package, an obituary, and a note: "From your grateful heirs."

He realized that he would never finish the machine, that he would die trying
to complete it, that he would never see it work. First he was upset, then
stopped, and decided that, since he developed the theory _and_ would soon be
filthy rich, that _they_ could finish the time machine themselves.:)

Filksinger


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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:56:28 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>



>>
>Says who?  Last I heard, european physicists had conducted an experiment
>using two particles that must add to a given energy amount.  Though I am
>far from understanding their experiment, the basics are that one particle
>goes to one distant destination, and the other goes somewhere else.  When
>the particle that has the greatest distance to travel arrives at its
>destination, its energy is measured.  Schrodinger(spelling appologies) I
>believe postulated that the energy of both particles would not be fixed
>until one of them was measured.  This experiment was billed (in Popular
>Science) as proof of that theory.  The part I really don't get is: somehow
>they felt they had detected a change in the first particle when the second
>particle was measured.  The important part is that one of the physicists
>working on this said that they had an effect that occurred _before_ its
cause.
>I don't claim that this is fact, or even proven.  But I have seen no proof
>that effects preceding causes "cannot happen".


I know the experiment in question. It wasn't proof of time travel, but of
the fact that basic laws of physics that bound two particles together bound
them together so that changes in one affected the other before light could
have transmitted the information from one to the other.

Unfortunately, it is completely useless for the transmission of information.
Rats.

>Time travel that might work:
>Assume there is a wormhole connecting two points in space.  This might be
>possable.  No assume that one end is fixed in place while the other end
>moves around a bit.  This is also possable.  Since moving objects
>experience time differently than stationary ones, time is moving at
>different rates at the opposite ends of the wormhole.  Therefore, it is
>possable that you might come one end before you entered the other.

Scientists have shown several ways in which time travel could occur. In
fact, no consistent theory has managed to eliminate black holes, and no
consistent theory allows black holes without time travel. Interestingly
enough, attempts to see what would happen if you tried to change the past
using wormholes and other time machines appears to show that you can have
time travel, but the past cannot be changed with time travel.

Filksinger


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:29:50 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> 
> >If I have a VPP, and I make a power with (say) the OAF limitation, and
> >someone disarms me...I can just switch the points away from that power and
> >into something else?  If so, that doesn't seem like much of an OAF
> >limitation to me.  /Maybe/ an OIF.  Maybe.
> 
> Of course you can - as long as you've paid for the ability to change it
> instantaneously.

But then how does 'OAF' limit that power?  It doesn't.  Therefore you
shouldn't get the points for it.

If you have a limitation on when you can change your power, then I can see
giving full value for OAF, because the whatever can be taken away from you
for a while...but if you can just dissolve the whatever and recreate it or
something else by instantly swapping the points in your power pool, then
OAF doesn't limit you...and (all together now) 'a Limitation that doesn't
limit the character isn't worth points'.
 
The situation is much the same as an RKA or Missile Deflection with 'OIF
Object of opportunity' - even though each individual object is an OAF, you
can always grab something else to throw/block with.  If your VPP whatever
gets disarmed and you can just swap to another power, it's not worth the
-1 limit for OAF.

> >It would seem like Followers would be much the same - by putting the
> >points into Follower, you're effectively getting certain limitations on
> >those points, which are why they come so cheaply.  If a Follower dies,
> >isn't it basically like losing an independant power? i.e. you lose the
> >points?  Or am I misinterpreting that as well?
> 
> Not if they're in a VPP. Remember, you're paying 50% extra for this.
> Note that replacing a follower is typically not an instant event. You
> could make it a RP opportunity. "Kid, I've had my eye on you for a
> little while. How'd you like to learn to be The Masked Marvel?"

True, and I can agree with this, since (as above) there's a limit on when
you can change the pool. I don't think it'd be too abusive either way.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:05:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

> >Exactly.  HKAs have 'no range', but NH interpreted that to be 'no radius'
> >as well.  It said that basically an AE: Radius HKA would only affect your
> >hex and the hexes around you, unless you had (for example)  stretching or
> >something similar. 
> 
> Hmmm... not sure I agree with that.

I thought it was a bit off as well.
 
> >/I/ figured that that was being hit twice for the same thing (the 'no
> >range' portion of HKA) - after all, 'no range' on an AE RKA just means
> >that the 'target hex' has to be yours or right next to yours - not that
> >all of the affected hexes need to be.
> >
> >Is that more clear?
> 
> The difference is that you can add Str to a HKA but not a no-range RKA.

RKA, Str adds (+1/2), no range (-1/2).  The point was that 'no radius' was
not implied by 'no range'.
 
J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:11:27 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nauseating Smells

At 10:02 AM 7/30/1998 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>What's the best way to represent fighting in an area filled with a really
nauseating smell?

   Well, I'm assuming by your phrasing that you're referring to an
environmental state.
   Essentially, I'd just make every character operate at -5 STUN (treat it
as -2d6 Suppress STUN), and require that everyone make an EGO Roll every
Phase to keep from retching (in which case they're at 0 DCV and can do
nothing).  Even if they do make the Roll, they're still at 1/2 OCV and DCV,
unless the Roll is made by 5 or more (or, they can add 1 to OCV and DCV for
each extra point they make the Roll by, up to the norm).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:01:54 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

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Nuncheon  writes:

> IMHO, 'Blade' would in part reflect the fact that the weapon needed
> upkeep of some sort - honing & polishing, etc, to stay in 'fighting
> trim'.

Uh-huh.  That applies to *ANY* tool or weapon, not just bladed weapons.

If you don't clean and oil your firearms the receivers and barrels will
become fouled, resulting in jams and loss of accuracy.  The steel
components will rust, and they will rust faster than any blade will.

So why don't firearms get this limitation, too?

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:05:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Things I learned from Playing Champions

I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
life should be.  Thus, I present:

Feel free to add your own.

THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS

1: Strength is your friend.  Get some.
2: The best defense is resistant.
3: Drains suck.
4: When all else fails... Haymaker.
5: Suppresive fire, doesn't.
6: There is nothing worse than a properly GM'd Hunted.
7: Except for a properly GM'd DNPC.
8: Steve Long is American for John Woo.
9: The original Champions Universe was a thinly diguised adaption of the
Marval Universe (Crusader = Capt America, Grond = Abomination, Ogre =
Hulk, Brick = The Thing, Dr. Destroyer = Dr. Doom, Mechanon = Ultron,
etc).
10: This is not necessarily a bad thing.
11: Explosions in the hand of a tactical idiot are your worst nightmare.
12: A PCs best friend is a '3'.
13: His worst enemy is an '18'.
14: Actually, his worst enemy is a 2nd lieutenant with a map and a
compass, but lets not quibble.
15: Being rich is easy, just spend 5 points.
16: The same with being drop-dead handsome/beautiful.
17: If you're in a Heroic game and no one has any armor, grab a shotgun.
18: If you're in a Dark Champions game, grab a shotgun; just use solid
slug rounds.
19: In fact, if you're in *any* game, grab a shotgun... shotguns rule.
(unless it's Silent Mobius, then grab a Graviton).
20: They need rules for shotguns in Fantasy Hero.
21: People who use the word 'level' while playing Champions should be
flogged.
22: Fusion is the work of the devil.
23: Area of Effect attacks: the great equilizer.
24: Mental powers, the even bigger equalizer.
25: You *never* can have too many skills.
26: You never can have too many points, either.
27: Your house rules are great, everyone elses suck.
28: GURPS Supers is a joke.
29...

well?  I ran out of steam.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 30 Jul 1998 16:58:19 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Flight and other Ponderances: Movement Construction System

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Carl D Cravens writes:

> Who said anything about Combat Driving?  My character has skill levels
> in Flight.  According to the rules, he can apply those to any focus
> which lends him Flight.

Vehicles are not Foci.

[...]

> I previously pointed out that I don't think Turn Mode should be affected
> by skill, either.  And you insist that characters can't buy Turn Mode
> for use on vehicles anyway, which is not apparent to me in the rules.

The vehicle buys them, not the character.


> But why call it a skill?

Because that is what the mechanic is called (actually "skill level").  The
precedent already exists: Energy Blast and RKA are not skills, but one can
buy "combat skill levels" with these.


> Can't argue that.  Now explain why this makes it necessary to represent
> this with a skill.  Running faster isn't represented with a skill, why
> should accelerating faster be such?

Because, as I said, the orthogonal mechanic exists as such.  Improving
lateral acceleration is accomplished with skill levels; linear acceleration
should also be accomplished with skill levels.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:10:20 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Filksinger  writes:

> First you claim that there are no facts, then you make a statement of
> dogma as an absolute?

No, the statement is what is believed to be true, that effects cannot
precede causes.

And as you related in your other message, where time travel might be
possible it would be impossible to change the "past".  Effects do not
precede causes (though depending on frames of reference it could seem as if
they do).

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

On 30 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> > IMHO, 'Blade' would in part reflect the fact that the weapon needed
> > upkeep of some sort - honing & polishing, etc, to stay in 'fighting
> > trim'.
> 
> Uh-huh.  That applies to *ANY* tool or weapon, not just bladed weapons.
> 
> If you don't clean and oil your firearms the receivers and barrels will
> become fouled, resulting in jams and loss of accuracy.  The steel
> components will rust, and they will rust faster than any blade will.
> 
> So why don't firearms get this limitation, too?

I think the idea was that the Blade limitation would keep people from
using their 1 1/2d6 katanas as 3d6+1 lightsabers (via martial arts and
strength and so on). Technically, at 3d6+1 my katana is now slightly more
damaging than a .50 HMG and can hack up a car, chop through a wall and
wreck armored vehicles.  Not a chance.  And if the PC does try and hack
through a wall, the GM can slap some DC minus on pretty fast.

There are rules for guns jamming and failing.  One could give handguns
some sort of 'projectile weapon' lim for -1/4 as well to account for your
exact points.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:55:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

On 30 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Nuncheon  writes:
> 
> > IMHO, 'Blade' would in part reflect the fact that the weapon needed
> > upkeep of some sort - honing & polishing, etc, to stay in 'fighting
> > trim'.
> 
> Uh-huh.  That applies to *ANY* tool or weapon, not just bladed weapons.

But not (for example) to Wrillimean's Adamantheants hand-blades, or the
Inhuman Scorch's flame blast.
 
> If you don't clean and oil your firearms the receivers and barrels will
> become fouled, resulting in jams and loss of accuracy.  The steel
> components will rust, and they will rust faster than any blade will.
> 
> So why don't firearms get this limitation, too?

Sure, sounds good to me.  Heck, most firearms are poor tools for putting
holes in bricks and rocks, too.

Call it 'Real Weapon' to be similar to 'Real Armor'.  Only use in
appropriate campaigns. (That is to say, rarely, since in most heroic games
items don't get built on points, and in superheroic games they don't
usually have those limits. I s'pose you'd want to use it if you were
(say) magically enchanting an Uzi...)

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 30 Jul 1998 18:16:58 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nuncheon  writes:

>> Uh-huh.  That applies to *ANY* tool or weapon, not just bladed weapons.

> But not (for example) to Wrillimean's Adamantheants hand-blades, or the
> Inhuman Scorch's flame blast.

Fine, they paid character points for those things rather than having them
as normal, mundane equipment.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ 
                                    \ 

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: 30 Jul 1998 18:16:06 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Surbrook writes:

> I think the idea was that the Blade limitation would keep people from
> using their 1 1/2d6 katanas as 3d6+1 lightsabers (via martial arts and
> strength and so on).

That being the case, the problem is not with the powers per se, but the
lack of a Strength minimum (regardless of how you want to work it out).
That, or a failure on the part of the GM enforcing special effects.  "Not a
lightsaber" is not a valid limitation unless lightsabers are a reasonably
common commodity in the game.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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From dwtoomey@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:18:20 -0500
From: David W Toomey <dwtoomey@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing...

--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: JonOz@aol.com
 
 THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS
..
..
.. 
29: Never ask the GM "do I have to roll for this?", because then you do
30: And your dice will betray you.
31: Your character is hero when your lucky shot saves the day
32: And your dice are to blame when he blows that easy shot
33: You might as well take a DNPC and get the points, because you'll end
up
with one anyway.
34: Ditto for hunteds.
35: Unluck... too dangerous to give a GM
36: You really don't need a character sheet for every NPC
37: For a player, there's no such thing as too much XP
38: Never play yourself as a character if you'd qualify as an incompetent
DNPC
39: Heromaker... a GM's best friend

Next?

--------- End forwarded message ----------

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

______________________________________________________________________________
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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:35:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

At 06:16 PM 7/30/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Michael Surbrook writes:
>
>> I think the idea was that the Blade limitation would keep people from
>> using their 1 1/2d6 katanas as 3d6+1 lightsabers (via martial arts and
>> strength and so on).
>
>That being the case, the problem is not with the powers per se, but the
>lack of a Strength minimum (regardless of how you want to work it out).
>That, or a failure on the part of the GM enforcing special effects.  "Not a
>lightsaber" is not a valid limitation unless lightsabers are a reasonably
>common commodity in the game.

   I think you may be missing the point.  (I'm not certain of it, but it
looks like it to me, based on the above.)
   That katana that Michael mentioned can do 3d6+1, with STR added
(assuming that the character with the katana has a STR of 25, which would
be unusual in a Champions game but not outrageous).  This has an average
roll of 11.5.
   Per the HSR (page 178), Brick has a DEF of 5, and a wall 125mm (~4")
thick has 5 BODY per hex.
   Also per the rules on page 178, if a character can overcome the DEF of a
wall to do its listed BODY, he leaves a human-sized hole, x2 size for every
+1 BODY.  (Most have interpreted this to mean the basic hole is one hex,
but a human doesn't fill an entire hex; call it 1/4 hex.)
   Thus, with an average roll for damage, a katana could slice through a
brick wall and leave a hole big enough for two to four people to walk
through, with a single stroke.
   Even in a heroic-level campaign, where STR Min would be used (a katana
has a STR Min of 12, per TUMA) and the wielder is unlikely to have STR
above 18, he can still use 2d6, with an average roll of 7.  Average damage
gets the character a usable hole in three strokes.
   The "Blade" Limitation is supposed to make that a no-no.
   Now, as you imply, this could be ruled out by virtue of Special Effects.
 However, the text on SFX-based Advantages and Limitations says that "[t]he
special effects of a Power can contain minor advantages and limitations
otherwise too small to reflect with Power Advantages or Power
Limitations....  Of course, once the Advantages or Limitations of the Power
become significant, they can (and should) be reflected in the cost of the
Power."  Based on the example given, I've taken this passage, rightly or
wrongly, to imply that a combination of Advantages and Limitations should
be reasonably balanced with each other so that the end result is fairly
close to the base utility of the Power.
   So we're left with one (or both) of two questions to answer:  (1) Is
there some other property, or set of properties, to having a Blade that
offsets the inability of a blade to cut through stone as described above?
(2) Is the utility of end result (with or without such an advantage)
reasonably close to the basic Power as written?
   I'm no expert on blades, but I can't come up with anything that would be
good for the first question; and for the second one it seems limited enough
that a -1/4 Limitation value seems right.  After all, it means that the
character can't cut through walls, vehicular armor, chains, and similar
targets the way an unmodified HKA (as described in the HSR) can.  That's a
significant weakness (albeit a relatively small one; it's only -1/4, after
all) in just about any campaign where swords are likely to be used with any
regularity.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:30:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

At 05:05 PM 7/30/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
>filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
>life should be.  Thus, I present:
>
>Feel free to add your own.
>
>THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS
   [snip]
>29...
>
>well?  I ran out of steam.

   A very good start you have here, too.  Let's see what I can come up with
(and I'll let you fill in the numbers yourself):

-:  They don't call it a Long manuscript for nothing.
-:  Never argue politics, religion, pizza toppings, or the "Linked"
Limitation.
-:  Most of the best supplements have Seeker on the cover, unconscious.
-:  The other best supplements have a wealth of factual information in them.
-:  Some of the best published characters happened by accident (like Foxbat).
-:  A cleverly-applied Mental Illusion can leave your teammates with
nothing to do.
-:  A Berserk can leave your teammates with *too much* to do.
-:  Before you take a "Mystery Hunted," make sure you know what your GM is
likely to do with it.
-:  Attack Multipowers really rock.
-:  Avoid surprises.  Get Danger Sense and/or 360 Degree Vision.
-:  Smart master villains don't tell their entire plans to henchmen who can
be captured.
-:  Really smart master villains give their henchmen false or misleading
information, and let them get captured on purpose.
-:  Time travel is a lot easier to handle in fiction than it is in a game.
-:  So is precognition.
-:  Sometimes it's easier to teach a lesson to a character than it is to a
player.
-:  Every Hero player, regardless of genre, absolutely needs to buy The
Ultimate Super Vehicle when it comes out.  ;-]
-:  If a player starts blurring the difference between game and reality,
hit him with an 8d6 Ego Attack.  He'll come around when he Recovers enough
STUN.
-:  Some of the best ideas for any genre come from fiction in other genres.
-:  If at first you don't succeed, get better equipment, get someone else's
help, and take five times as long on your next try.
-:  Not everything is easily translatable to game terms (slick surfaces,
gravity increase, overriding television transmissions, a pie in the face,
and destroying a planet being a few cases in point).
-:  Simpler is better.  If you don't really need those three Advantages and
seven Limitations on the Teleportation power that you'll be using in
combat, then don't take them.
-:  Losing a battle, or even letting your enemy escape, doesn't necessarily
mean failure.  It can mean a lesson learned, or even an opportunity for
greater things in the future.
-:  If your GM says "No" to a character or power construct, go along with
it.  He has a good reason.  If you argue about it and get your way, you'll
end up having little or no fun.
-:  Most of the published rules are for all campaigns; some aren't, though.
 Use careful discretion to know which is which, and which of the latter are
for you.
-:  Often, the ideal course of action doesn't look like it.
-:  The fiction you read and watch will affect the characters you play.
The characters you play will affect the person you are.  Thus, play
characters with qualities you want to develop in yourself.
-:  The welfare of a player is more important than the welfare of a character.
-:  Superheroes aren't just for kids any more.

   Be sure and post the finalized list somewhere (like your website)!  :-]
   (By the way, I've ordered this so that the first several are specific to
the game, and the rest actually contain life applications, most of them
hidden....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


______________________________________________________________________________
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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:53:10 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

From: Schlepp Boy <tesseract@pclink.com>


<snip>

>1) This *has* to be a one time or limited event. Some flaw in the formula
>that requires further reseach before being released to the public. To
>release this sort of thing into the GMs world would dramatically change it
>and as a player I shouldn't be able to do that (and don't want to).
>
>2) Along with a noble desire to do something for humanity, he also has a
>not so noble craving for wealth and fame. He's been relatively poor most of
>his life and his mother has been encouraging him seek position. He wants to
>help people but he want his slice of the pie too.
>
>3) Just a side note here. I *think* a masters degree is 3 years (total 7).
>At the start of the campaign Hero has just finished his masters and is
>going on to his doctorate. Prior to the completion of his masters there is
>no adventuring. He'll be moving to another state where he'll study,
>research, and adventure. Methinks he's going to end up a perpetual student
>like Peter Parker though because he's not going to have much time.
>
>Alright, on to Hunted/Watched. I've been giving some thought to Hero's
>origin. A hunted or watched would add a lot to the character I think if
>done right. The only problem is that what I've come up with so far will
>drastically change the character. Originally I had planned on Hero being,
>ummm, careless and experimenting on himself. This could still happen or he
>could be forced to take it through neccessity.
<snip>
>Naturally, this would have a serious impact on Hero's psyche. It would most
>likely produce a darker character than I had planned on running. Of course,
>due to some forethought on Hero's part, the formula the villains grab
>doesn't work. Villain assumes it hasn't been finished and commences to
>watch/hunt Hero. Nasty but interesting.


That is a rather extreme possibility. Others exist, however.

Ex: Lab assistant also tries formula. Is horribly deformed and given super
powers. Now hunts character, possibly insane.

Ex: Hero gave formula to villain. Villains son tried it; died. Villain hunts
hero, hero cannot release formula because of potentially fatal side effects.

Ex: Formula works on no one but hero, due to hero's mutant
powers/biochemistry/mystic protector/karma.  Villain knows hero has formula,
knows it works on hero, and does not accept the truth. Hunts hero to gain
formula.

Ex: As above, but mother, as hostage, was killed when hero couldn't supply
formula. Hero's sister blames hero, also hunts hero.

Other Disads include: Rep: Fraud and quack. Hero may have great difficulty
getting supporters for his research and attempts to get doctorate;
Susceptabilities to certain chemicals which cause breakdowns or even berserk
behavior on the part of the nanites; DNPC: Mother who wants to know what
hero is doing in his spare time when he should be working to become
successful, follows him around and thereby accidentally gets into danger,
never quite discovering his Secret ID.

Filksinger


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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:05:27 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
<snip>
>
>So why don't firearms get this limitation, too?


In my campaigns, they do.

Filksinger


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From filkhero@usa.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:02:36 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Filksinger  writes:
>
>> First you claim that there are no facts, then you make a statement of
>> dogma as an absolute?
>
>No, the statement is what is believed to be true, that effects cannot
>precede causes.


You did not state that it was believed to be impossible, you stated that it
_was_ impossible.

>And as you related in your other message, where time travel might be
>possible it would be impossible to change the "past".  Effects do not
>precede causes (though depending on frames of reference it could seem as if
>they do).


Again, this is a _belief_. The fact that some scientists thought experiments
in attempting to create experiments that change the past had interesting
results that they could not create an experiment in which the laws of
physics violated this principle does not make it a fact that the principle
can never be violated.

That the speed of light cannot be exceeded is more heavily demonstrated than
the inviolability of causuality; we have actually tested it with objects
approaching the speed of light, but we have never tested the effects of time
travel. Would you take the stance of repeatedly saying "impossible" when
faced with discussions of FTL?

Filksinger


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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:18:43 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 05:56 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
>
>
>
>>>
>>Says who?  Last I heard, european physicists had conducted an experiment
>>using two particles that must add to a given energy amount.  Though I am
>>far from understanding their experiment, the basics are that one particle
>>goes to one distant destination, and the other goes somewhere else.  When
>>the particle that has the greatest distance to travel arrives at its
>>destination, its energy is measured.  Schrodinger(spelling appologies) I
>>believe postulated that the energy of both particles would not be fixed
>>until one of them was measured.  This experiment was billed (in Popular
>>Science) as proof of that theory.  The part I really don't get is: somehow
>>they felt they had detected a change in the first particle when the second
>>particle was measured.  The important part is that one of the physicists
>>working on this said that they had an effect that occurred _before_ its
>cause.
>>I don't claim that this is fact, or even proven.  But I have seen no proof
>>that effects preceding causes "cannot happen".
>
>
>I know the experiment in question. It wasn't proof of time travel, but of
>the fact that basic laws of physics that bound two particles together bound
>them together so that changes in one affected the other before light could
>have transmitted the information from one to the other.
>
>Unfortunately, it is completely useless for the transmission of information.
>Rats.
>
Perhaps I was unclear.  I did not intend this as an example of time travel.
 I indended this to rebut the assertion that effects cannot appear to
precede their cause.  I say appear because we are all moving in time, at 1
day/day, and it might be _our_ view that is distorted.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:28:47 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 07:02 PM 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>Filksinger  writes:
<<snip>>
>That the speed of light cannot be exceeded is more heavily demonstrated than
>the inviolability of causuality; we have actually tested it with objects
>approaching the speed of light, but we have never tested the effects of time
>travel. Would you take the stance of repeatedly saying "impossible" when
>faced with discussions of FTL?
>
>Filksinger
>
If anyone cares, I have a travel method that uses Einstein to show how an
object could appear to travel faster than light to an outside observer and
to itself.

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From gheald@worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:25:33 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 05:10 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Filksinger  writes:
>
>> First you claim that there are no facts, then you make a statement of
>> dogma as an absolute?
>
>No, the statement is what is believed to be true, that effects cannot
>precede causes.
>
I doubt that any one has proof of this.  It seems like they said "time
travel is impossable, therefore time travel is impossable."  One hundred
years ago the top minds felt that what we call Black Holes couldn't
possably exist not because science said so, but because it seemed silly to
say that something could collapse that way.  "There must be a law which
prevents it."

>And as you related in your other message, where time travel might be
>possible it would be impossible to change the "past".  Effects do not
>precede causes (though depending on frames of reference it could seem as if
>they do).
>
Well, I don't understand him when he talks about it, but my brother
disagrees.  Something about how killing your own grandpa doesn't eliminate
the you who did it, only the future you who will (or won't) be born.  Like
in Back to the Future, where Marty remembers his life the way it didn't
happen because he's changed the past.  I insist he's talking parallel
worlds, but he says he isn't.

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From llwatts@juno.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:18:26 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

>>3) Just a side note here. I *think* a masters degree is 3 years (total
7).
>>At the start of the campaign Hero has just finished his masters and is
>>going on to his doctorate. Prior to the completion of his masters there
is
>>no adventuring. He'll be moving to another state where he'll study,
>>research, and adventure. Methinks he's going to end up a perpetual
student
>>like Peter Parker though because he's not going to have much time.
>
>   Actually, Master's degrees are usually 1-2 years, depending on the
>program.  (At least, that was my observation when I attended Western
Oregon
>State College, and later worked at Oregon State University.)

If the character doesn't have much money, he may have needed to take a
year off school (or go part-time) -- that should stretch things out to 3
years.

>Alright, on to Hunted/Watched. I've been giving some thought to Hero's
>origin. A hunted or watched would add a lot to the character I think if
>done right. The only problem is that what I've come up with so far will
>drastically change the character. Originally I had planned on Hero
being,
>ummm, careless and experimenting on himself. This could still happen or
he
>could be forced to take it through neccessity.

<snipped the rich old villian bit>

Well, let's see:  I think you said the nanites could only reproduce
themselves inside Hero -- when he uses his nano-tech powers on others,
the nanites can't move in permanently.  Hero-to-be is working in the lab
and thinks he's come up with a way to get the nanites to reproduce inside
a person.  He's already blown the lab animal budget, so he injects
himself with the serum (or, for a little comic relief, accidentally
sticks himself with the syringe), but apparently nothing happens.  Then
something comes up -- the rich old villian could learn of the research
and try to grab it (and Hero to finish the work); Hero could try to
figure out why the serum didn't work, and be so distracted by the problem
that he neglects safety procedures; Hero is so down about the failure
that he accidentally eats in the university cafeteria on Institutional
Mexican Food night :)  ; the latest flu bug could get loose on campus and
Hero catches it -- it can be anything, but whatever it is acts as a
catalyst for the nano-tech serum and his powers activate.  However, since
the catalyst wasn't planned, Hero can't reproduce it (if he even knows
what it was).

To get a Hunted/Watched out of this will probably depend on just what the
catalyst was.  The rich old villian idea would work, especially if his
tame scientists assured him that the "crackpot research" Hero was doing
was doomed to failure -- and suddenly there's someone in spandex and a
mask with powers clearly based on that "crackpot research".  Once the ROV
finishes replacing his tame scientists, he can start sending goon squads
after Hero to capture him for research.

If this is a "standard" superhero world, anti-alien or anti-mutant groups
might see Hero as no longer human because of the nanite symbiotes --
there's another possible Hunted, though you would need to establish how
they can identify his powers as nanite-based.  (Perhaps they've been
sabotaging similar research, or waving grants at people with the
condition that they get out of nanite research.)

For a slightly weirder option, probably a Watched rather than a Hunted,
some New Age group has been rereading Nostradamus, and once Hero starts
adventuring will announce that Hero is the fulfillment of prophecy (you
can read _anything_ into Nostradamus).  (Can you tell it's been a long
day?)

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

______________________________________________________________________________
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From mhoram@relia.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:41:21 -0600
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 
> I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
> filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
> life should be.  Thus, I present:
> 
> Feel free to add your own.
> 
> THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS

> 21: People who use the word 'level' while playing Champions should be
> flogged.
 21 a) ...unless they are saying which are going to OCV or DCV.

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From chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:29:51 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
To: Champ's Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions



Michael Surbrook wrote:

> I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
> filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
> life should be.  Thus, I present:
>
> Feel free to add your own.
>
> THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS
>
>
> 29...
>

29) 30 DEX 4 SPD agents are wrong
30) Never take a PC as a Rival, they become a 'hunted' shortly after
31) Never give alient technology to the government
32) If you fight the same villain over and over always losing, when you finally
defeat him Kill him.
33) GOLDEN AVENGER! THANK GOD YOU"RE HERE!!! (didn't work but it should have)
34) Never trust a smiling GM
35) Don't trust happy players either.
36) Bring the food (its worth 3d6 luck)
37) Never MACH 2 Movethrough a ninja/aikido master....



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From dpawtows@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:37:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions


 N+1: Never underestimate the power of a high REC.
 
 N+2: Never set a major fight in an empty field.  Give the PC's something
      to _work_ with.

 N+3: Never roll your dice on a thick carpet.
    
 N+3.14159: On a pizza-pie is worse.

                                 Daniel "e!" Pawtowski

 

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From mhoram@relia.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:10:20 -0600
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Nuncheon  writes:
> 
> > IMHO, 'Blade' would in part reflect the fact that the weapon needed
> > upkeep of some sort - honing & polishing, etc, to stay in 'fighting
> > trim'.
> Rat writes:
> Uh-huh.  That applies to *ANY* tool or weapon, not just bladed weapons.
> 
> If you don't clean and oil your firearms the receivers and barrels will
> become fouled, resulting in jams and loss of accuracy.  The steel
> components will rust, and they will rust faster than any blade will.
> 
> So why don't firearms get this limitation, too?
> 
I always thought they did, but just checked HSR and lo and behold they
don't. I've always played them as such, basically using the 'real gun'
limitation at -1/4, just as armor has the 'real armor' limitation at
-1/4 (HSR 205-206). I always considered the 'blade' lim to be that same
sort of thing.

Maybe we could genericise the limitation and call it 'real world rules'
-1/4. It would be required for all Heroic level campaign equipment, and
would mean just the sort of things mentioned.. needs upkeep, can't do
damage beyond a 'real world' situation even if max damage is rolled,
that sort of thing.

-Mhoram

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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 18:54:21 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Streamlining Mass Combat

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:51:48 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:

>Back in an old issue of AC there was a system to streamline combat, where=
> you basically figured up the levels at which the NPCs would be hurt,=
> stunned, etc. before the combat began then just checked them off when they=
> took a certain amount of damage. Can anyone summarize this systemn for me?=
> Or, if not, do you have any system which works to make running battles=
> quicker and easier? I'd rather focus on what's going on than on=
> bookkeeping.

Yes - for mooks you just mark down whether they'll take one hit or two
or three; if Sir Percival goes and criticals a 2-hit mook with his 2H
sword, then that's 2 hits in one, with a suitable description.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 10:34:06 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>,
    HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:05:57 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>
>> >Exactly.  HKAs have 'no range', but NH interpreted that to be 'no radius'
>> >as well.  It said that basically an AE: Radius HKA would only affect your
>> >hex and the hexes around you, unless you had (for example)  stretching or
>> >something similar. 
>> 
>> Hmmm... not sure I agree with that.
>
>I thought it was a bit off as well.
> 
>> >/I/ figured that that was being hit twice for the same thing (the 'no
>> >range' portion of HKA) - after all, 'no range' on an AE RKA just means
>> >that the 'target hex' has to be yours or right next to yours - not that
>> >all of the affected hexes need to be.
>> >
>> >Is that more clear?
>> 
>> The difference is that you can add Str to a HKA but not a no-range RKA.
>
>RKA, Str adds (+1/2), no range (-1/2).  The point was that 'no radius' was
>not implied by 'no range'.

Agreed, but as I've mentioned, Hero can do it already just by partially
limiting the Radius advantage, so why go to the complexity?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 18:51:53 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>,
    "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Nauseating Smells

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:12 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

>At 10:02 AM 7/30/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>What's the best way to represent fighting in an area filled with a really
>nauseating smell?
>>
>
>Is this an environmental concern or a power?
>
>If the smell is simply a function of the environment, I'd probably require
>an EGO roll to stay in the area (modified by the intensity of the smell and
>any relevent psych lims). Naturally, other smell PER rolls (if they should
>happen to come up) would take a penalty. If the smell was really, really,
>bad, I might give it one or two dice of NND damage, and require another EGO
>roll to resist vomiting - which would kill your DCV (not to mention your PRE.)
>
>If this is a power we're discussing, I'd consider a Flash vs. Smell, a Mind
>Control to flee or vomit, and an NND attack, in some combination. Linked,
>of course. Could anything be more nauseating than another Linked debate?

ROTFL!

>Yet another approach just struck me as I wrote this - how about Darkness
>vs. Smell? Even the halved DCV would be appropriate (due to nausea.)

How about 1d6 Continuous NND Flash vs smell, defense is CON roll
@-something or self-contained breathing?

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From cptspith@teleport.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:10:35 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

> >>>   But what about Naomi?
> >>
> >>Hey!  I know that one...from somewhere in the dim past...but wasn't it --
> >>
> >>"...and what of Naomi?"
> >
> >   Not if you're thinking of the "Love of Chair" bit from "The Electric
> >Company."
> 
> "... AND, what about Naomi?"
> 
> "Love of Chair" was my favorite part of the show!

   Just to show my own anal-retentiveness and obscurity, I believe it
was actually titled "The Boy and The Chair".
   My dad quipped that "And what about Naomi?" incessantly, and still
does....


-- 
  -Reverend Spith
   Savior of Humanity
   Secular Messiah


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From Cypriot@concentric.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:01:34 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nauseating Smells

At 10:02 AM 7/30/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>What's the best way to represent fighting in an area filled with a really
nauseating smell?
>
>Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
>http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
> 

You might tie it to a CON roll.   Throw in some minuses for the smell,
or even define the smell as a CON drain.

Then, if they miss the CON roll, consider them impaired or flashed for
a certain period of time while the stand in the corner of the room 
throwing up.

======================  =================================================
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead
======================  =================================================

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From cptspith@teleport.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:36:34 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character creation "problem"

Kim Foster wrote:
> 
> I just wanted to ask some other champs players and gms their opinion on
> this. Among Champions player, in particular those with a lot of experience,
> I've noticed a tendency to shoot for the maximum right off the bat. If a
> range is given for stats, damage class and defenses every character will be
> at the top end in the every feild regardless of "archtype". I can agrees to
> an extent that pgioneholing character into types like "brick" and "Blaster"
> can be stifling but I personally find it a little dull when all the
> characters are identical. "Mighty man" is just as fast and agile as the Blur
> who has just much defenses as Mighty Man ann Zapper and all of them do the
> exact same amount of damage. It doesn't seem to get the feel of team
> superhero comics either. What do the rest of you think about it? Has anyone
> come up with any "fixes"?

   I would say there are two primary methods of attempting to remedy
this problem; inexperience and GM control on an individual basis.
  1)In my game, I have a slightly larger than 50% level of 'new'
players; players who are not mechanics-oriented gamers, and are
generally unfamiliar with the Hero System (which I use!).  For each of
these platers, I spend as much time as necessary crafting their
character(s) with/for them.  This yields two very useful dynamics; they
have to think a lot about their character's concept(s), and it allows me
to exert some level of control over the balance and variety of their
abilities.
   2)For players who are Hero System players from the get-go, I simply
set what _I_ consider to be appropriate limits or balances for their
characters' STATS and abilities.  If a player wants a brick, (s)he will
have to justify any beyond average DEX or SPD, for example.

   Basically, it simply boils down to the GM taking charge and making
decisions (on and individual basis) regarding each character's strengths
and weaknesses.  As GM, it is your responsibility to encourage or
ascertain a good mix of characters for your game.  Personally, I always
try to make sure that my PCs all have a weak point which may be covered
by a teammate; as simple as an EGOist having low defenses or a Brick
being slow.  The trick is simply to demand variety in characters, and
not settle for everything the player wants.

-- 
  -Reverend Spith
   Savior of Humanity
   Secular Messiah


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From backflash@mindspring.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:43:56 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: The Superbabes/Hero conversion. Part 2

    Many people on the list will remember this conversion article I did
______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



From quite sometime back. It remains one of the achievements in
conversion that I still take alot of pride in. Conversion systems are
not easy to make. They take many hours of number crunching and sweating
over a keyboard to get right.

    Well I am making an announcement of a new project that takes this
conversion system, and brings it into a new age. The Superbabes Creation
Workshop templates.

    It is my intention to create a template set for Superbabes for
Creation Workshop. Not just a set of templates, but a set of conversion
scripts that will allow free transference between Superbabes and The
Hero System. At least this is my intent, after I get the Hero Creator
templates.

    What will change from the conversion system that I just posted?
Quite abit, actually. It is my intent to go through the entire numerical
range of Superbabes and create a set of charts and equasions to go along
with the conversion. A clearly defined set of formulas that will be
usable in the construction of conversion scripts.

    This is no small undertaking. But it will allow the extension of the
features of Creation Workshop to take some supplements I really like and
distill them into both Hero and Fuzion versions of all of the
characters.


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 06:03:15 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Question on powers

At 11:25 PM 7/30/1998 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>>And as you related in your other message, where time travel might be
>>possible it would be impossible to change the "past".  Effects do not
>>precede causes (though depending on frames of reference it could seem as if
>>they do).
>>
>Well, I don't understand him when he talks about it, but my brother
>disagrees.  Something about how killing your own grandpa doesn't eliminate
>the you who did it, only the future you who will (or won't) be born.  Like
>in Back to the Future, where Marty remembers his life the way it didn't
>happen because he's changed the past.  I insist he's talking parallel
>worlds, but he says he isn't.

   I tend to agree with you on this one.  Effects cannot eliminate their
causes (though they obviously can eliminate their instrument thereof, after
the fact).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:59:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Nonsequiturs

At 03:10 AM 7/31/1998 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>> "Love of Chair" was my favorite part of the show!
>
>   Just to show my own anal-retentiveness and obscurity, I believe it
>was actually titled "The Boy and The Chair".

   Hm.  I wonder why they kept identifying it on the air as "Love of
Chair," then?

>   My dad quipped that "And what about Naomi?" incessantly, and still
>does....

   As do I.  (Other non-sequitur statements I've come to love are "The cows
are not what they seem," and, "You mother is on the roof."  Don't ask.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:56:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Different Disads

At 11:18 PM 7/30/1998 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote:
>>>3) Just a side note here. I *think* a masters degree is 3 years (total 7).
>>>At the start of the campaign Hero has just finished his masters and is
>>>going on to his doctorate. Prior to the completion of his masters there is
>>>no adventuring. He'll be moving to another state where he'll study,
>>>research, and adventure. Methinks he's going to end up a perpetual student
>>>like Peter Parker though because he's not going to have much time.
>>
>>   Actually, Master's degrees are usually 1-2 years, depending on the
>>program.  (At least, that was my observation when I attended Western Oregon
>>State College, and later worked at Oregon State University.)
>
>If the character doesn't have much money, he may have needed to take a
>year off school (or go part-time) -- that should stretch things out to 3
>years.

   Actually, it's relatively unusual (though by no means rare, especially
in scientific fields) for a student to go directly from graduating with his
Bachelor's to earning his Master's.  Most take a year or two (or, more
often, several years) in between to save up for the endeavor.

>For a slightly weirder option, probably a Watched rather than a Hunted,
>some New Age group has been rereading Nostradamus, and once Hero starts
>adventuring will announce that Hero is the fulfillment of prophecy (you
>can read _anything_ into Nostradamus).  (Can you tell it's been a long
>day?)

   This gets me to thinking....  There probably ought to be an option under
Hunted/Watched for "Interference," for someone who just plain gets in the
way of things without really being a DNPC.  Imagine being pursued by a fan
club of nutcases, or a sidekick wannabe, or a dog who's decided to "adopt"
you....  These characters don't necessarily get themselves into trouble
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From which the hero must extricate them, but they can cause extra trouble
for the hero.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:17:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:05:57 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

> >RKA, Str adds (+1/2), no range (-1/2).  The point was that 'no radius' was
> >not implied by 'no range'.
> 
> Agreed, but as I've mentioned, Hero can do it already just by partially
> limiting the Radius advantage, so why go to the complexity?

OK.  Lemmee go over all of this one more time.

1) First, I agree with you. I think the power should be HKA, AE: Radius,
   blah blah blah.

2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
   limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
   unless you buy Stretching or some such.

3) I said that /if that was true/, you'd be better off buying the
   following power construct: RKA, no range, AE, Str adds.  It'd be
   cheaper, too.  That suggests that Aaron didn't think things through
   when he wrote that power description.

4) Therefore, you should be able to put a limitation on AE: Radius that
   would reduce the radius of the Area Effect.  It's /still/ not 
   point-balanced with the RKA solution, but that's because of the nature
   of advantages and limitations on HERO.*

More clear now?

J

* Hmm. Killing Attack, 10 points per die.  No range, only does base
damage.  Ranged and Str Adds would both be +1/2 advantages available for
this power.  That would make things come out even no matter what
combination of advantages were put on the power.  It's also one step
closer to a 'generic building block' for HERO.  Comments? 

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From bob.greenwade@klock.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 06:05:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champ's Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

At 11:29 PM 7/30/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
>31) Never give alient technology to the government

  -: Never refuse to give alien technology to the government.
  (I'm not arguing against yours; I'm saying both should be included.  Back
to back.)

>33) GOLDEN AVENGER! THANK GOD YOU"RE HERE!!! (didn't work but it should have)

   This will probably work a little better under Johnson than under Kaufman.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm


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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:25:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Ichiban Kubikiri (was >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<)

	I've decided to give Ichiban Kubikiri a VPP for Martial Arts,
and quite a large one at that.  I'll think of a few examples for some of
his abilities and post them with the character.

	...here is my new question:  

If Ichiban knows many different strikes for a given Martial Art form,
would that just be SFX of the strikes in general or would he need to buy
VSFX.

If Ichiban wanted to have special Advantages for his martial arts
abilities (such as Invisible [for strikes quicker than the eye could see]
or Autofire [for multiple strikes]) could he develop 'naked' slots with
his VPP, or would he have to buy said Advantages for his STR (as 'naked'
slots individually or with Variable Advantage).

Is there any way to simulate, by means of a power set or by placing a
Limitation on EGO, a character extremely adept at pushing.

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From icepirat@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:55:52 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> 2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
>    limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
>    unless you buy Stretching or some such.

I agree with you here, but see Allston's point. Was hole in the middle or
personal immunity included?  I feel you need that with an AE that starts on
your hex.

> 3) I said that /if that was true/, you'd be better off buying the
>    following power construct: RKA, no range, AE, Str adds.  It'd be
>    cheaper, too.  That suggests that Aaron didn't think things through
>    when he wrote that power description.
This strikes me as being kludgy.  Though maybe not as bad if you have to add
str to be able to add str.  (You would need to add 22.5 str per 15...)

> 4) Therefore, you should be able to put a limitation on AE: Radius that
>    would reduce the radius of the Area Effect.  It's /still/ not
>    point-balanced with the RKA solution, but that's because of the nature
>    of advantages and limitations on HERO.*

Which is what I would push for, since I dislike #3.  My construct would be:
Xd6 HKA, AE: Radius (+1), PI
The limitation on AE would depend on the active points of the HKA.  If we're
talking 20 points or less, no limitation since it would only cover your hex
and the hexes surrounding anyways.

> * Hmm. Killing Attack, 10 points per die.  No range, only does base
> damage.  Ranged and Str Adds would both be +1/2 advantages available for
> this power.  That would make things come out even no matter what
> combination of advantages were put on the power.  It's also one step
> closer to a 'generic building block' for HERO.  Comments?

Why buy EB then?

-Mark

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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:13:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ichiban Kubikiri (was >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<)

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 	I've decided to give Ichiban Kubikiri a VPP for Martial Arts,
> and quite a large one at that.  I'll think of a few examples for some of
> his abilities and post them with the character.
 
> 	...here is my new question:  
> 
> If Ichiban knows many different strikes for a given Martial Art form,
> would that just be SFX of the strikes in general or would he need to buy
> VSFX.

I would say that it's the SFX for the strike.  There isn't enough
difference between a punch and a kick to make it an advantage.
 
> If Ichiban wanted to have special Advantages for his martial arts
> abilities (such as Invisible [for strikes quicker than the eye could see]
> or Autofire [for multiple strikes]) could he develop 'naked' slots with
> his VPP, or would he have to buy said Advantages for his STR (as 'naked'
> slots individually or with Variable Advantage).

No.  No 'naked slots'.  You could buy it as an advantage for your STR,
Another way is to but the advantage for your STR and some dice of Hand
Attack to get the right level of damage.  We liked to use Hand Attack,
"STR does not add" (-1/2) to create such powers, since the system given in
UMA was overly complex.
 
> Is there any way to simulate, by means of a power set or by placing a
> Limitation on EGO, a character extremely adept at pushing.

What?  You want to push anything?  I guess you could buy levels to EGO
"Only to push".  Or, you could buy extra STR wit a high END cost and call
it 'pushing'.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:32:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ichiban Kubikiri (was >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<)

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 	I've decided to give Ichiban Kubikiri a VPP for Martial Arts,
> and quite a large one at that.  I'll think of a few examples for some of
> his abilities and post them with the character.
> 
> 	...here is my new question:  
> 
> If Ichiban knows many different strikes for a given Martial Art form,
> would that just be SFX of the strikes in general or would he need to buy
> VSFX.

SFX would be 'martial arts strike' IMHO.  I wouldn't require VSFX to use
6d6 HA as punch or kick any more than I would require you to buy
'Offensive Strike' twice.
 
> If Ichiban wanted to have special Advantages for his martial arts
> abilities (such as Invisible [for strikes quicker than the eye could see]
> or Autofire [for multiple strikes]) could he develop 'naked' slots with
> his VPP, or would he have to buy said Advantages for his STR (as 'naked'
> slots individually or with Variable Advantage).

Hmm.

To do a 'martial arts' vpp you should be buying HA or HKA (or occasionally
other powers, like Flash) with the appropriate power modifiers - there's a
discussion on 'Martial Arts multipowers' in NH that deals with much the
same thing.

You could buy 6d6 HA, Invisible and do 6 dice of damage...or you could buy
6d6 HA, Invisible and pay enough extra points for the invisible for it to
apply to your STR, as well - most GMs will allow that.

For some advantages, GMs may even allow you to add your strength on a
limited basis - example: 6d6 HA AP with 15 STR - you could add 15 AP from
your strength which translates to 2d6 AP for a total of 8d6.
 
> Is there any way to simulate, by means of a power set or by placing a
> Limitation on EGO, a character extremely adept at pushing.

Buy extra dice for the power, with 'requires EGO roll -1/2' and possibly
'extra END'.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:00:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Mark Lemming wrote:
> Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> > 2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
> >    limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
> >    unless you buy Stretching or some such.
> 
> I agree with you here, but see Allston's point. Was hole in the middle or
> personal immunity included?  I feel you need that with an AE that starts on
> your hex.

It was Selective.
 
> > 3) I said that /if that was true/, you'd be better off buying the
> >    following power construct: RKA, no range, AE, Str adds.  It'd be
> >    cheaper, too.  That suggests that Aaron didn't think things through
> >    when he wrote that power description.
> This strikes me as being kludgy.  Though maybe not as bad if you have to add
> str to be able to add str.  (You would need to add 22.5 str per 15...)

It /is/ kludgy...but the point was that you were getting limited from a
limitation that was never there on the power to begin with.
 
> Which is what I would push for, since I dislike #3.  My construct would be:
> Xd6 HKA, AE: Radius (+1), PI
> The limitation on AE would depend on the active points of the HKA.  If we're
> talking 20 points or less, no limitation since it would only cover your hex
> and the hexes surrounding anyways.

My thought would be something like the reverse of the 'adding area'
mechanic, which escapes me at the moment...something like -1/4 to halve
the radius?
 
> > * Hmm. Killing Attack, 10 points per die.  No range, only does base
> > damage.  Ranged and Str Adds would both be +1/2 advantages available for
> > this power.  That would make things come out even no matter what
> > combination of advantages were put on the power.  It's also one step
> > closer to a 'generic building block' for HERO.  Comments?
> 
> Why buy EB then?

Er, where does EB come into it?  This just evens up RKA and HKA.

If you wanted to do a similar thing with EB/HA, it'd probably get messy,
because the costs for those and STR are a bit dodgy.

I suppose you could make it a 3 pt base, with 'adds str' and 'ranged'
being +1/2 advantages.  Then you get into the problem of 'buying strength
is cheaper than buying HA' and all that.  It's ugly.  I'm starting to
agree with the 'raise the price of STR' crowd*.

J

* - is there an FAQ for the whole 'raise the price of STR and CON'
discussion? Preferably one that summarizes both sides?  I'll have to
decide on using this in FFH soon...

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From mdmitche@advicom.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:10:58 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
>filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
>life should be.  Thus, I present:

>Feel free to add your own.

>THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS

The Side Effects subsection:

29: When the party takes serious damage only from their own SE, the
opposition is too weak.
30: The party will still be just as irritated as if the opposition had done
it.
31: AoE and/or random target SE are funny enough to justify the reduced
damage to the character.
32: If the character with the AoE SE misses his roll enough, the other
party member will make up for the reduced damage when they "correct" the
character.
33: A large AoE with a poor targeting roll is as good as a SE, maybe
better.
34: Player will only agree with the above after 2:00 A.M. when everything
is funny--"Here, let me cast my lightning bolt. Oops!  Ha Ha hah, I just
took a critical to my head"--<followed by gales of laughter all around>.

Other:

35: Quoting Monty Python's "Quest for the Holy Grail" is funny half way
into the game--not so funny 5 minutes from the get go.
36: On a 14-, the first Grail quote will be, "Run Away, Run Away"
37: Followed quickly by: "And there was much rejoicing", "What is your
favorite color", or some riff on the Trojan Rabbit scene.
38: On an 8-, a given Hero player will not have seen said movie--and will
wear a tight smile while the above occurs.
39: Throwing dice (1 STUN pip physical EB, autofire) at those who quote
Grail is an acceptable level of physical violence, even if not otherwise
permitted.

40: It's easier to teach a pleasant, team oriented, Hero novice the rules
than it is to deal with an irritating, grab all the attention, Hero expert.
41: More fun and rewarding, also.
42: Mixed gender, mixed age groups of players have more fun--when it works.
43: Young boys play better when there are two or more females in the
group--especially if one of the females is their mom.
44: You cannot always add "just one more player".
45: Some Hero mechanics make no sense until you try them.
46: Some make perfect sense until you try them.
47: If a tree fell in a forest, and no one was there, someone could still
model the effect using Hero :-)
 
Thanks Michael, that was fun.

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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:27:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental

	PhotoCynthia, ther verdant menace, had broken into Metro City's
Botanical Garden to 'liberate' a rare mutant strain of fast growing
nightshade.  Metro City's resident superhero, the Flasher, springs into
action, unaware of PhotoCynthia's flora-physiology.  Using her solar based
powers, the Flasher leaps into action, trying to take the green-thumbed
miscreant out the easy way with a Solar Flare (Light based Flash versus
sight).
	PhotoCynthia, whose skin is fed by such light based attacks,
laughs heartily, for the Flasher's powers only serve to stregnthen her
photosynthetic energies!!! (Absorbtion vs. Light based attacks to END
reserve)
	
	PsiPhon is a being from the M-Dimension, a world parallel to our
own comprised of mental energy.  He feeds upon the 'wavelegnths' that
derive all mental energy, but the 'waves' from Mentor's (a mentalist's)
EGO blast are particularily tasty (Absorbtion versus Mental SFX).
	'The fools!' PsiPhon thinks to himself.  'Soon, the entire Brain-
Gang will be here to try and stop me!!!  And in doing so, they will only
bolster my power, feeding me unbtil I am strong enough to take over the
universe!!!  Muhahahahaha!!!!!'

	...problem is, is there a mechanic for Absorbtion vs. Flash or
Absorbtion vs. Mental?

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From ravanos@njcu.edu Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:32:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Disembodied Brains are People Too.

    [The following text is in the "DEC-MCS" character set]
    [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
    [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]

I'm working on a Disembodied Brain NPC who is an extremely intelligent
mentalist mutant whose brain was divorced from his body and can survive
outside of a human body in a properly prepared nutrient bath (and limited
ammounts of time outside of the bath).
My problems come in the form of:
	Physical Limitations- How many?  He has no body (no manipulatory
appendages, no ability to move, etc.), no 'natural' senses (sight,
hearing, smell, taste, touch), and no ability to communicate.
	However, some of these disadvantages would be offset by certain
Mentalist Abilities (360 degree Mental sensing Sense, Mind Scan,
Telepathy, and Mind Link).
	I need to know how I should break the Disadvantages up.

	Also, his @^^˾Eݼ_@T

-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song." 
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6. 
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-



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From susano@access.digex.net Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:37:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:

  
> Thanks Michael, that was fun.

You should see "Things I learned While Reading Silent Mobius" 

BTW: a few quotes from the list that inspired this silliness.

Terminator
 16. Cyborgs don't have feelings, but they have style
 33. The Terminator could kick Data's ass.

Aliens
 60. Whenever you have a problem, the best solution is to nuke it from
orbit.
 74. Guns are cooler in the future. Especially when Hicks is using them.
 75. The coolest guys always carry shotguns.
 76. Keep a shotgun handy for close encounters

The Killer
113. If you use two pistols, you hit more with each of them.
114. Ammo is expendable. Bad guys, doubly so.

A Better Tomorrow
120. In China, plants have guns for fruit

Hard Boiled
124. One gun = Superman, Two guns = God
139. If you can smoke a cigarette and chew on a toothpick or matchstick,
you can also probably shoot with an automatic pistol in each hand.
144. Don't eat at the same restaurant as Chow-Yun Fat

Blade Runner
287. If you cross Hicks and a cyborg, you get Rutger Hauer dancing around
naked, waxing philosophic, and beating up Han Solo.  Not bad.

Highlander
310. There can be only one. Not three. One.


Big Trouble in Little China
116. It's all in the reflexes
126. Normally, guys-with-guns beat guys-with-sticks

El Mariachi
220. A guitar case is the ideal place to store buttloads of guns.
238. Musicians are naturally better shots than trained assassins.

The Killer (again)
270. You can't kill somebody if you don't have style. That's why hired
thugs never win.

The Hunt for Red October
395. James Bond is a Soviet sub captain.

Terminator 2
476. Mack truck/pickup truck is like a much simpler version of
     rock/paper/scissors. You'd think an intelligent cyborg like Arnold
     Schwarzenneger could figure it out.


Judge Dredd
493. Never let Hollywood get ahold of your cool comic ideas


Desperado
545. "Antonia Banderas" is Spanish for "Chow-Yun Fat".
556. If you need to jump backwards across a rooftop but can't quite make
it, shoot a lot. The extra recoil will propel you to safety.


Okay, I got carried away, but you get the idea.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************


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From jeffj@io.com Wed Aug 12 11:42:06 1998
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:43:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> 
> 	...problem is, is there a mechanic for Absorbtion vs. Flash or
> Absorbtion vs. Mental?

Well...there's absorption vs. physical and vs. energy...it wouldn't be too
much of a stretch to expand that to absorbtion vs. Mental in my book.

As for the Flash...maybe Flashes should be defined as physical or energy
just like regular attacks.  That way we can have PFD and EFD...

Physical Flash vs. sight:  dust/sand/Stooge fingers/whatever in the eyes
Energy Flash vs. sight:  bright light

PFD (sight): nictating membranes, cybernetic optics
EFD (sight): cheap sunglasses (might provide some PFD as well), polarized
             eyes

etc...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 10:45:02 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:29:50 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> 
>> >If I have a VPP, and I make a power with (say) the OAF limitation, and
>> >someone disarms me...I can just switch the points away from that power and
>> >into something else?  If so, that doesn't seem like much of an OAF
>> >limitation to me.  /Maybe/ an OIF.  Maybe.
>> 
>> Of course you can - as long as you've paid for the ability to change it
>> instantaneously.
>
>But then how does 'OAF' limit that power?  It doesn't.  Therefore you
>shouldn't get the points for it.

Yes it does - in your example, it's been taken away from you and can
then be used against you.

>If you have a limitation on when you can change your power, then I can see
>giving full value for OAF, because the whatever can be taken away from you
>for a while...but if you can just dissolve the whatever and recreate it or
>something else by instantly swapping the points in your power pool, then
>OAF doesn't limit you...and (all together now) 'a Limitation that doesn't
>limit the character isn't worth points'.

Then the GM shouldn't allow you to take OAF in the first place, though
it would be ok for a magic pool.
 
>The situation is much the same as an RKA or Missile Deflection with 'OIF
>Object of opportunity' - even though each individual object is an OAF, you
>can always grab something else to throw/block with.  If your VPP whatever
>gets disarmed and you can just swap to another power, it's not worth the
>-1 limit for OAF.

Agreed.

>> >It would seem like Followers would be much the same - by putting the
>> >points into Follower, you're effectively getting certain limitations on
>> >those points, which are why they come so cheaply.  If a Follower dies,
>> >isn't it basically like losing an independant power? i.e. you lose the
>> >points?  Or am I misinterpreting that as well?
>> 
>> Not if they're in a VPP. Remember, you're paying 50% extra for this.
>> Note that replacing a follower is typically not an instant event. You
>> could make it a RP opportunity. "Kid, I've had my eye on you for a
>> little while. How'd you like to learn to be The Masked Marvel?"
>
>True, and I can agree with this, since (as above) there's a limit on when
>you can change the pool. I don't think it'd be too abusive either way.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 18:55:40 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:17:47 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:05:57 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>
>> >RKA, Str adds (+1/2), no range (-1/2).  The point was that 'no radius' was
>> >not implied by 'no range'.
>> 
>> Agreed, but as I've mentioned, Hero can do it already just by partially
>> limiting the Radius advantage, so why go to the complexity?
>
>OK.  Lemmee go over all of this one more time.
>
>1) First, I agree with you. I think the power should be HKA, AE: Radius,
>   blah blah blah.
>
>2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
>   limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
>   unless you buy Stretching or some such.

No - consider a warhammer or throwing ax, Ranged HKAs if ever there
were.

>3) I said that /if that was true/, you'd be better off buying the
>   following power construct: RKA, no range, AE, Str adds.  It'd be
>   cheaper, too.  That suggests that Aaron didn't think things through
>   when he wrote that power description.

So far so good.

>4) Therefore, you should be able to put a limitation on AE: Radius that
>   would reduce the radius of the Area Effect.  It's /still/ not 
>   point-balanced with the RKA solution, but that's because of the nature
>   of advantages and limitations on HERO.*
>
>More clear now?

Yes.

>* Hmm. Killing Attack, 10 points per die.  No range, only does base
>damage.  Ranged and Str Adds would both be +1/2 advantages available for
>this power.  That would make things come out even no matter what
>combination of advantages were put on the power.  It's also one step
>closer to a 'generic building block' for HERO.  Comments? 

I'll have to think about that one.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From qts@nildram.co.uk
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 18:56:29 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:55:52 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote:

>Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> 2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
>>    limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
>>    unless you buy Stretching or some such.
>
>I agree with you here, but see Allston's point. Was hole in the middle or
>personal immunity included?  I feel you need that with an AE that starts on
>your hex.

Don't forget we were including AoE: Selective Attack
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


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From jeffj@io.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:16:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >
> >But then how does 'OAF' limit that power?  It doesn't.  Therefore you
> >shouldn't get the points for it.
> 
> Yes it does - in your example, it's been taken away from you and can
> then be used against you.

So the OAF stays around even after I switch the points to another power in
my pool?  That's an uncomfortable precedent...it would make me (and other
players) wonder why I can't create an OAF magic battleaxe in my pool, give
it to Bob, swap the points for an OAF magic sword, give it to Pete, make
an OAF magic rubber duckie for myself, etc. 
 
> >OAF doesn't limit you...and (all together now) 'a Limitation that doesn't
> >limit the character isn't worth points'.
> 
> Then the GM shouldn't allow you to take OAF in the first place, though

This is exactly my point.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 15:40:47 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

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Bob Greenwade writes:

>    I think you may be missing the point.  (I'm not certain of it, but it
> looks like it to me, based on the above.)
>    That katana that Michael mentioned can do 3d6+1, with STR added
> (assuming that the character with the katana has a STR of 25, which would
> be unusual in a Champions game but not outrageous).  This has an average
> roll of 11.5.

No, I am not missing the point.  A 25 Strength is unreasonable for the
campaign level (Dark Champions).  Adding all 25 Strength to the weapon is
unreasonable for the campaign level.

The limitation is worth nothing: you want to routinely make passable holes
in walls, buy Tunnelling.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
                                    \ head.

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 15:51:43 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

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Filksinger  writes:

> That the speed of light cannot be exceeded is more heavily demonstrated
> than the inviolability of causuality; we have actually tested it with
> objects approaching the speed of light, but we have never tested the
> effects of time travel. Would you take the stance of repeatedly saying
> "impossible" when faced with discussions of FTL?

FTL is not impossible.  All the math says is that it is impossible for an
object with rest mass to travel *at* c: e = mc^2.  It is certainly possible
for an object to travel faster than c (although measuring such objects is
problematic).  You can accelerate ("deceleration" is acceleration)
asymptotically to c, but you can never achieve it while you have mass.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

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From Cypriot@concentric.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental


>	...problem is, is there a mechanic for Absorbtion vs. Flash or
>Absorbtion vs. Mental?


I just went through the same thing.  I wanted a character who could 
Absorb any attack -- Physical, Energy, Mental -- and fire it back in
kind.  Physical and Energy were obvious, as they are directly covered
by the rules.  Mental proved to be a bit of a problem.

I reasoned that, by only stretching the rules slightly, you could 
simply pretend that the Mental attack does body for the purposes of
the Absorption.  My GM refused to allow it, insisting that Mental 
attacks don't do body.  ("Yes, but if they did ...!" -- "But they 
don't!" -- "sigh")

Instead, I switched over to Aid.  And then put on the disadvantage
"Only up to the amount of the 'body' rolled" and a couple of other
disads.  (I don't have the sheet with me at the moment, but if you're
curious, I can go look it up later.)  With all the disads I took, 
I wound up EXACTLY duplicating the Absorption power, except that it
was AID and it would accept Mental attacks as easily as the others.
And strangely enough, the cost worked out exactly the same.

For some reason, this was acceptable to the GM.
    


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From ajackson@iii.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

Stainless Steel Rat writes:

> FTL is not impossible.  All the math says is that it is impossible for an
> object with rest mass to travel *at* c: e = mc^2.  It is certainly possible
> for an object to travel faster than c (although measuring such objects is
> problematic).  You can accelerate ("deceleration" is acceleration)
> asymptotically to c, but you can never achieve it while you have mass.
 
Actually, an object with real rest mass can't travel faster than c, as its mass
becomes imaginary (an object with imaginary rest mass, whatever that means, can
travel faster than c but cannot travel at or slower than c).  As a side effect,
any effect which travels faster than c and can actually transfer information
(certain virtual objects can travel faster than c but have no energy or
information content, which makes the point somewhat irrelevant) will allow
causality violations; if a normal object can actually travel FTL that will
imply time travel.

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From robtwest@erols.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:09:01 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disembodied Brains are People Too.

Jason Sullivan wrote:
> 
> I'm working on a Disembodied Brain NPC who is an extremely intelligent
> mentalist mutant whose brain was divorced from his body  . . . 

Wow!  I want to see the transcript from that court case!  Does it get 
alimony?  ;-)


> . . .                                                 and can survive
> outside of a human body in a properly prepared nutrient bath (and limited
> ammounts of time outside of the bath).

> My problems come in the form of:
>         Physical Limitations- How many?  He has no body (no manipulatory
> appendages, no ability to move, etc.), no 'natural' senses (sight,
> hearing, smell, taste, touch), and no ability to communicate.
>         However, some of these disadvantages would be offset by certain
> Mentalist Abilities (360 degree Mental sensing Sense, Mind Scan,
> Telepathy, and Mind Link).

My $.02:

	Physical Limitations
20	Unable to Walk (frequent, fully impairing)
25	No Hands (Always, fully impairing)
15	Requires special Life Support Equipment to Eat, keep warm, etc.
10-	Allowance for limited offset from TK, Levitation, etc.
	(Also limits category to 50 points maximum)

25	Dependence on Nutrient Bath (unique, 1D6/turn; 5 min delay)

25	Distinctive Features, Disembodied Brain (Not Conc., Extreme)

10	DNPC Scientist 14- (competent normal, useful skills)

	Vulnerabilities
30	2xBODY from Physical Killing Attacks (very common)
15	1.5xBODY from Energy Killing Attacks (very common)
---
155	Total Disadvantages

	Sell Back Everyman Powers
12-	6" Running
2-	2" Swimming
30- 	Normal Sight (Discriminatory Spatial Awareness)
20-	Normal Hearing (Discriminatory Sense + Ranged for Hearing Group)
---
64-	Everyman Powers sold back.


For a character like this, I sometimes just lift the rule on maximum 
Limitations, in lieu of adding a "villain bonus" or experience, and this 
guy will probably have a host of Psychological Limitations to boot.  I 
suggest selling back everyman powers, rather than taking a physical 
limitation, if a character is giving up normal senses, since the 
character usually buys back other senses that somewhat offset the 
limitation.  Some people may disagree with my pointing of Normal Sight 
and Hearing, but barring a pronouncement in 5th Edition that clarifies 
the active and real point totals for those powers, those are what I use.

The Physical Limitation "Requires Special Life Support" may seem at first 
to be redundant with the Dependence, that is not so.  They have the same 
special effect, but are not the same Disadvantage.  The nutrient bath is 
needed to provide the environment that allows the brain to survive at 
all, but there is other equipment that is necessary to keep the bath 
oxygenated, at a constant temperature of 37C, and to process nutrients in 
the way that the digestive system and Liver do in a normal person.  As 
such, the Brain has the following problems:

Loss of power = cannot breathe
Loss of feeder tubes = cannot eat
Cannot adapt to small temperature changes, especially if out of the bath.

Thus, a simple Change Environment may be deadly to the Brain.  Moreover, 
the entire complex that protects the Brain is highly immobile.

The Dependence has a long period (5 min) to the first onset of problems, 
and a shorter period (turn) between taking STUN thereafter.  In such 
cases, I think it is simplest to average the point contribution of the 
two times.  I also regarded the batch as "unique", which is two steps 
rarer than "uncommon".  To be "Unique," the object of the dependence need 
not be irreproducable, just not reproducable in an emergency without 
advance preparation.  Thus, the Brain may have an escape pod set up with 
an emergency version of the bath that can take him to his back-up base, 
but if the heroes destroy that, he is SOL, and will probably die.

By the same token, the heroes are unlikely to be able to construct one in 
a hurry if they carelessly destroy his base.

-- 
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113  
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 16:11:50 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

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Anthony Jackson writes:

> Actually, an object with real rest mass can't travel faster than c, as
> its mass becomes imaginary (an object with imaginary rest mass, whatever
> that means, can travel faster than c but cannot travel at or slower than
> c).

Imaginary rest mass is just as real as rest mass within its reference
frames.  To a particle travelling faster than c, the particles that travel
slower than c are the imaginary particles.

> As a side effect, any effect which travels faster than c and can actually
> transfer information (certain virtual objects can travel faster than c
> but have no energy or information content, which makes the point somewhat
> irrelevant)

Actually, they don't; they only appear to do so given a particular frame of
reference.

> will allow causality violations; if a normal object can actually travel
> FTL that will imply time travel.

Again, only from a particular frame of reference.  Time dialation does not
really happen; it is a description of what *seems* to happen given
prejudiced reference frames.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From ajackson@iii.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> 
> Actually, they don't; they only appear to do so given a particular frame of
> reference.

The problem is that if you can initiate FTL from any frame of reference, you
can make an ftl jump, accelerate into a frame of reference by which you moved
backwards in time, make an FTL jump _back_ to your original position,
accelerate into your original reference frame, and you will arrive before you
left.  Note that if you assign a priveleged reference frame for FTL this can be
avoided, but this is philosophically unattractive and negates the base precepts
of relativity.


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From jeffj@io.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:44:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

On 31 Jul 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> No, I am not missing the point.  A 25 Strength is unreasonable for the
> campaign level (Dark Champions).  Adding all 25 Strength to the weapon is
> unreasonable for the campaign level.
> 
> The limitation is worth nothing: you want to routinely make passable holes
> in walls, buy Tunnelling.

You /are/ missing the point then.  The point is that no matter how much
damage a katana does, it should not blow 2m holes in brick walls.

OK.  Assume an 18 strength.  Quite reasonable in Dark Champions, yes?

Assume a 1 1/2d6 katana.  I think that's the right damage level, if not,
pick your favorite overestimated Japanese weapon from NH/TUMA.

I don't have the STR mins for a katana here, but I think that that 18 STR
is going to let you get the damage up to at least 2d6K, right?

Max roll on 2d6 K is 12 BODY.

How big a hole does 12 BODY make in a brick wall, according to the rules
in the book?

What if I got max damage on a Haymaker using the katana (why not?  the
wall isn't going to dodge or hit me back...)?  How big would the hole be
then?

J, who personally thinks it's a problem with the 'DEF and BODY of common
   objects' tables, since they lead to ridiculous stuff like the
   oft-argued 80 BODY Earth...make walls tougher!

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 16:49:26 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

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Anthony Jackson writes:

> The problem is that if you can initiate FTL from any frame of reference,

Which you cannot do, because you cannot accelerate through c.  But assuming
you can find a way to bypass that...

> you can make an ftl jump, accelerate into a frame of reference by which
> you moved backwards in time,

... you will appear to do so, within that particular, special frame of
reference.  Special frames of reference are just that; they are at best an
approximation of what is really happening.  You cannot use specific
relativity to circumvent general relativity since by definition general
relativity encompasses all of specific relativity.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 17:25:10 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

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Nuncheon  writes:

> You /are/ missing the point then.  The point is that no matter how much
> damage a katana does, it should not blow 2m holes in brick walls.

Then either the katana's damage rating is much higher than it should be, or
the book's DEF and BODY values for walls are much lower than they should
be.  I tend to favor the latter.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

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From ajackson@iii.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> 
> > The problem is that if you can initiate FTL from any frame of reference,
> 
> Which you cannot do, because you cannot accelerate through c.  But assuming
> you can find a way to bypass that...

Ok, if you can send an FTL message the effect works slightly differently (you
can't then physically travel in time, though you can send messages which arrive
before you sent them)
> 
> ... you will appear to do so, within that particular, special frame of
> reference.  Special frames of reference are just that; they are at best an
> approximation of what is really happening.  You cannot use specific
> relativity to circumvent general relativity since by definition general
> relativity encompasses all of specific relativity.

No, you will in fact appear to do so from all frames of reference.  If in some
frame of reference you return _to the same point_ earlier than you left it, you
will appear to travel backwards in time from all frames of reference.

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From robtwest@erols.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:56:41 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Limited Power: Blade

Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> 
> 
> It's one of those 'realistic' limitations like 'Real armor', that don't
> get used a lot, and never* in a superheroic setting.
> 
> J
> 
> * - And now someone will disprove me with one exampl, once again reminding
> me to 'never say never'.

Actually, I have seen this type of limitation used fairly often in a 
superheroic setting, whereever real-world equipment must nevertheless be 
bought with character points.

- The follower or DNPC who is a skilled normal.
- A VPP used to buy real-world or near-real-world combat equipment.
- When agents are described with a real-point limit on their equipment,
	essentially having a VPP.
- When NPCs are written up using Superheroic rules, either for
	publication or because the GM prefers it that way.
- As a mandatory limitation when a player wants to add something that is
	not "in concept" but can be readily obtained: the Projector who
	buys a 9mm weapon to surprise the villain who is immune to his
	energy blasts; the Martial Artist who wants some Kevlar armor
	for occasional use.

I grant that these are all exceptional situations, but that does not mean 
that they don't come up in a lot of campaigns.

-- 
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113  
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net
Date: 31 Jul 1998 18:43:30 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

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Anthony Jackson writes:

> No, you will in fact appear to do so from all frames of reference.

It don't work that way; you cannot cheat general relativity through
specific relativity.  A frame of reference is a relative comparison between
an observer and an event.  Changing one's frame of reference changes how
one observes an event; it does not change how the event occours.

In other words, while it might seem as if you were travelling through time,
it is just an illusion based on a particular observer's frame of reference.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
                                    \ 

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From ajackson@iii.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> 
> > No, you will in fact appear to do so from all frames of reference.
> 
> It don't work that way; you cannot cheat general relativity through
> specific relativity.  A frame of reference is a relative comparison between
> an observer and an event.  Changing one's frame of reference changes how
> one observes an event; it does not change how the event occours.

There's no difference between the two statements in GR.  There _is_ no absolute
concept of how an event occurs.  You don't need to cheat GR through special
relativity (if you change reference frames you're using GR in any case),
causality violations are in fact a prediction of GR, not SR.

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From mdmitche@advicom.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:01:05 -0500
From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental

> From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
> Instead, I switched over to Aid.  And then put on the disadvantage
> "Only up to the amount of the 'body' rolled" and a couple of other
> disads.  (I don't have the sheet with me at the moment, but if you're
> curious, I can go look it up later.)  With all the disads I took, 
> I wound up EXACTLY duplicating the Absorption power, except that it
> was AID and it would accept Mental attacks as easily as the others.
> And strangely enough, the cost worked out exactly the same.

Was this Aid at 5 points per die or the much ballyhooed 10 points per? 
Just curious.


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From Cypriot@concentric.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:29:37 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental


Follow-up ...  Here's my "Absorbtion vs. Mental Attack".  The same should
hold true for Flash as well, I suppose.

Aid Ego Attack:  
   Constant, Persistent (+2); 
   Not usable on others (-1); 
   Only after being hit by Ego Attack or Mind Control (-1);
   Limited to amount of "BODY" or Aid die roll, whichever is less (-1/4)

======================  =================================================
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead
======================  =================================================

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From Cypriot@concentric.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:31:56 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental


>Was this Aid at 5 points per die or the much ballyhooed 10 points per? 
>Just curious.


By the book.  5 points per 1d6.   
======================  =================================================
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead
======================  =================================================

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From GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:26:25 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Authors needed

  We have a number of products in need of authors. I will tell you in advance
that at this time that they are all either Hero System or Fuzion products. If
you're familiar with either, you might want to limit your choices to those
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From the appropriate list, unless you're willing to learn a new game system
(Fuzion being the easier to learn). If you are already familiar with both
systems, then you have a broad field to pick from. ;)

  Rather than send the list of titles individually to everyone who inquires,
they are listed below:

LICENSED HERO SYSTEM PRODUCTS
Heroic Adventures Vol. 3: Fantasy Hero adventures

SAN ANGELO CAMPAIGN SERIES (for Champions)
Denizens of San Angelo: Details many NPCs living in and around San Angelo
San Angelo Map Book: Places, with associated NPCs and adventure seeds
P.A.R.T. Sourcebook: Details SAPD's Paranormal Alert Response Team
Chinatown Sourcebook: All about Chinatown (tongs, magic, etc.)
Mystic San Angelo: Details the mystic scene in San Angelo
Pulp San Angelo: Details San Angelo in the 1920s-1935
Golden Age San Angelo: Details San Angelo in 1936-1950
Enemies Incarcerated: Details Gaviota Island Federal Prison for supers
New Century City: Details the East Coast metropolis (ahem).

SENGOKU RPG
Shadows of Nihon: the ninja sourcebook
Hokkaido: Details the northern island and the Ainu people (culture, magic,
etc.)
Sengoku Campaign Book: Establishes the "official" campaign setting for Sengoku
Tokugawa: Campaign book detailing the Tokugawa era (1603-1850)
Tokaido: Adventure anthology, all linked to the eastern highway, the tokaido.

USAGI YOJIMBO RPG
Usagi Yojimbo: Villains: Villains and enemies that have appeared in the
comics.
___ Adventure Book: Adventures for the RPG.

  Mark @ GRG
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
  ICQ: 9614976

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From ravanos@njcu.edu
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disembodied Brains are People Too.

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Robert A. West wrote:
<muchly snipped>

	Great!  precisely what I needed...
	...now if I could only work out hit locations charts.

	(Wow!  He actually gets shrinking as a power! *laugh*)

	My message was cut off due to call wasting.  I forgot to add the
part about certain powers compensating (such as Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind
Link, and a Mental sensing Sense), and the 'nutrient bath' that he would
have a dependency to.  Looks like you read my mind.
 


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From rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:06:35 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A site to offend everyone.

Offended?  Nah.  Laughed myself silly reading it, but.  All you 
can do is ignore raving lunnies like him.  (No offence intended to 
bonafid raving lunnies out there.)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time between play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From ratinox@peorth.gweep.netDate: 31 Jul 1998 23:34:55 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Question on powers

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Anthony Jackson writes:

> There's no difference between the two statements in GR.  There _is_ no
> absolute concept of how an event occurs.

I never said otherwise.  I said that changing one's frame of reference
changes how one observes the event, and that doing so does not change how
the event occours.

> You don't need to cheat GR through special relativity (if you change
> reference frames you're using GR in any case),

In which case what you described would not require "changing" frames of
reference.

> causality violations are in fact a prediction of GR, not SR.

If only because anything possible within specific relativity must likewise
be possible within general relativity.  Yes, I am familiar with the concept
of a cylinder, dense as a neutron star, rotating at relatvistic speeds.
But remember that the math is all extremely hypothetical and that our
understanding of relativity is incomplete.

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-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:07:56 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ichiban Kubikiri (was >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<)

At 10:25 AM 7/31/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> I've decided to give Ichiban Kubikiri a VPP for Martial Arts,
>and quite a large one at that.  I'll think of a few examples for some of
>his abilities and post them with the character.

   I know "Ichiban" means "Number One" in Japanese, but for some reason it
always makes me want to go get the Preparation H....]
   (Sorry....)

> ...here is my new question:  
>
>If Ichiban knows many different strikes for a given Martial Art form,
>would that just be SFX of the strikes in general or would he need to buy
>VSFX.

   VPP carries with it, by implication, a sort of limited VSFX.
Essentially, if he can pull something out of a VPP, he can freely determine
the SFX, subject to the type of VPP it is (gadget, magic, martial arts,
whatever).

>If Ichiban wanted to have special Advantages for his martial arts
>abilities (such as Invisible [for strikes quicker than the eye could see]
>or Autofire [for multiple strikes]) could he develop 'naked' slots with
>his VPP, or would he have to buy said Advantages for his STR (as 'naked'
>slots individually or with Variable Advantage).

   Variable Advantage on STR might be interesting, but I'd just recommend
that the points spent from the VPP include any needed Advantages to the
strikes and such.
   Basically, I'd allow either construct, though I'd discuss it with the
player to make sure that the dynamics involved match what's desired more
closely than the other way of doing it.  (This is why, when I developed the
character Rattler for my game and website, I used Mind Control for his
"Mental Paralysis" rather than the Advantage on Entangle that I usually
prefer.)

>Is there any way to simulate, by means of a power set or by placing a
>Limitation on EGO, a character extremely adept at pushing.

   Try buying additional STR with Extra END.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From student@cqu.edu.auDate: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:08:23 +1000
From: Labuser <student@cqu.edu.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A site to offend everyone.



Offended?  Nah.  Laughed myself silly reading it, but.  All you
can do is ignore raving lunnies like him.  (No offence intended to
bonafid raving lunnies out there.)
--

none taken.
oh, and the word is 'loonies', as in 'loon'.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time between play
-----------------------------------------------------------

  [ Part 2: "Included Message" ]

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:06:35 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A site to offend everyone.

Offended?  Nah.  Laughed myself silly reading it, but.  All you 
can do is ignore raving lunnies like him.  (No offence intended to 
bonafid raving lunnies out there.)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time between play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From jonesmj@cqu.edu.auDate: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:24:04 +1000
From: happyelf <jonesmj@cqu.edu.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

> > i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
> > the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE,
>
> You mean, like...a mathematical extrapolation of current Damage Reduction
> levels and point costs? (Which is where the 120 pts - 100% rDR came from)
>
> The series 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 continues with...4/4.*
> The series 15, 30, 60 continues with...120.
>
>

no, the power is constructed not from simple math, but game concepts as
well.the fractions are not the issue, the issue is what the power is used for.
This power
is used when you want to reduce the damage taken, but not negate it cimpletly.
It's used to depict many things, but not bulletproof types- such a concept is
the
antithisis of the damage reduction power.

> Makes sense to me, makes sense to Bob, makes sense to a whole bunch of
> other people.
>
> * A lot of people would dearly like it to go to 7/8 or some such, but then
>   1/4 doesn't fit at all.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

why not? who says? you? fine, put it in your game- jst don't pretend this is
how the power is 'meant to be'.


> Honestly, the argument has been going like this:
>
> Lockie:          This is unbalancing!
> Someone else:    I used it in my game and it wasn't unbalancing.  You
>  (Bob, me, etc)  just have to be careful.
> Lockie:          But it's unbalancing!  If you let this happen everyone
>                  will want to do it!
> Someone else:    There are a lot of unbalancing things in the rules, and
>                  not everyone is doing them.
> Lockie:          But it's UNBALANCING!
>
>

allow me.. .

me: why do you want 100% dr?

them: becasue we want indestructable characters

me: ok, here's scads of discourse as to indestructability.
firstly it's an sfx concept so using a single power to model it
is a joke, second you are asking to pay 120 points to ignore
one category of attack, which has nothing to do with
the 'power' (sfx) of being indestructable. Now, why can't you just buy
high defences, since they will get you the same thing?

them: no!

me: why not?

them: don't want to!

me: why not?

them: shut up!

gee, i love one-sided renditions. .


> Game balance and points are artificial constructs, and points aren't even
> the best way to handle game balance - just compare an experienced
> HERO player's character to a newbie's, and you'll see the kind of power
> level difference I'm talking about.  All point values do is get you into a
> certain range which makes it easier for the GM to do the actual
> fine-tuning of game balance.  That's all they /can/ do.
>

yes a RANGE. don't you think 100% dr is an example of something whichfalls
outside of that RANGE? somehting perhaps, for either a different category
of power, or a gm call situation?


> If you, as a GM, don't feel able to handle the potentially unbalancing
> effects of 100% DR in your games, nobody says you have to allow it.  I
> frequently discourage Telepathy and similar powers because they make
> keeping secrets very difficult, and mystery scenarios are much harder to
> run.  100% DR isn't going to help you when you're not in combat, and in
> fact would be next to useless in a problem-solving or a social scenario*.
> And there are even (as has been pointed out) ways around it in combat.  So
> I don't think it's really the game-buster you make it out to be.  *MAYBE*
> if your game consisted solely of fight scenes *and* the GM was unwilling
> to use any of the combat methods we've discussed to 'get around' the 100%
> DR, then - and only then - would it be so unbalancing as to break the
> game.
>

see, this is the problem. you are happy to induct 100% dr becasue you want
it.you then rationalise that desire, becasue you aren't capable of inventing
an original power OR leaving this in the hands of the gm?. Game balance is
one of the most important areas of a game system. You hapily ramble about
powergaming, but let's face it- YOU'RE THE ONE wanting the ultimate
combat power. if this was just an 'addition to rp' concept, you could do with
80 or 120 rd to depict it- the smigen of extra damage wouldn't bother you.

> IMHO.
>

well duh. . .

> * - Well, OK, I suppose you could use it to pick up chicks.  "Hey,
>     baby...I'm invulnerable..."
>
> J
>
> Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
> Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj



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From jonesmj@cqu.edu.auDate: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:35:03 +1000
From: happyelf <jonesmj@cqu.edu.au>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

>

<final post. . i promise.  .>

>    I didn't see the post where you made this statement... and, frankly, I
> don't see the parallel.  A 1000+ point Godzilla clone as a Follower for 10
> points is totally outside the realm of the printed rules, simply because
> Followers cost 5:1, and 1:1 if the total is greater than the owner's, and
> Limitations are not allowed.  (Although they *are* allowed on Summon, so it
> is theoretically possible to get that Godzilla clone for 10 points.)
>    On the other hand, it's a relatively simple matter (mathematically
> speaking) to extend the Damage Reduction table using the formula of +25% to
> Reduction for 2x points.  For that matter, it would be *theoretically*
> possible to get 125% Damage Reduction for four times the cost of 75%, thus
> *getting back* STUN and BODY when hit -- though just try getting that past
> any GM (even if it does cost 240 points per damage type, if resistant).
>

this is the exact opposite of what makes sence to me. You HAVE followers,you
can GET a 1000 point follower for 200 points (depending on your own points
level).
The only thing wrong is the cost.
you DON'T HAVE 100% damage reduction! how can you argue that it lies more
within the rules than 10 pt gozilla? ones a mis-cost issue, the others a
non-existant power
AND a mis-cost.


> >i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
> >the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE,
> >and i'm happy to call names and stuff if that's what your after.
>
>    No, just remember to put your counterarguments on the same plane as the
> arguments you get.  If someone makes a point mathematically, don't argue
> philosophy.

your math is impeccable. if the chart progresses as you claim- 25, 50, 75,
100,then you are correct. but the chart does not progress in that fasion.
your PRIMARY ASSUMPTION, the philosophical assumption you make,
is flawed. Hence my replies.

> Make your points *specific* and detailed -- don't leave your
> connections to guesswork.  Leave all salient parts of a conversation in
> your quoted material (though at least you don't quote back every last byte,
> or fail to quote at all).  I know you can handle this, because you've done
> it before and made your points very clear, not to mention convincing, in
> the process.
>    And if you think the Damage Reduction table doesn't make sense, then
> just say that directly; don't hide it behind a discussion of a rules
> proposal.

<one more time: capitals for emphasis>no, the damage reduction table makes
perfect sence- your reading of it
is JUST PLAIN WRONG. The whole POINT of damage reduction is that
SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH. That is the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
upon which the power is BUILT. I am sorry that you can't see that and likely
you never will.
Being indestructable is a COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ISSUE, with NOTHING TO DO WITH
DAMAGE REDUCTION, which works from the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
that SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH! Clearly, this is NOT what being indestructable
ENTAILS.


> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm



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From filkhero@usa.netDate: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:52:12 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Question on powers

    [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
    [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
    [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]

From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Anthony Jackson writes:
>
> > Actually, an object with real rest mass can't
> travel faster than c, as
> > its mass becomes imaginary (an object with
> imaginary rest mass, whatever
> > that means, can travel faster than c but cannot
> travel at or slower than
> > c).
>
> Imaginary rest mass is just as real as rest mass
> within its reference
> frames.  To a particle travelling faster than c,
> the particles that travel
> slower than c are the imaginary particles.

Irrelevant. There still has to exist a term to distinguish
between them, "real" and "imaginary" are the terms used.

> > As a side effect, any effect which travels
> faster than c and can actually
> > transfer information (certain virtual objects
> can travel faster than c
> > but have no energy or information content,
> which makes the point somewhat
> > irrelevant)
>
> Actually, they don't; they only appear to do so
> given a particular frame of
> reference.

Experiments have been done with particles entangled by the
Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, which shows that changes
in one particle can affect the other particle
instantaneously. It just happens to be a form of
"instantaneous" that does not actually violate General or
Special Relativity.

> > will allow causality violations; if a normal
> object can actually travel
> > FTL that will imply time travel.
>
> Again, only from a particular frame of reference.
>  Time dialation does not
> really happen; it is a description of what
> *seems* to happen given
> prejudiced reference frames.

Experiments have been done in which two atomic clocks are
used, one of which is then sent on a plane trip. The clocks
measured different periods of time; one _was_ younger than
the other. Time dilation is real.

Filksinger

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From filkhero@usa.netDate: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:52:15 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A site to offend everyone.

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From: Rick Holding
> (No
> offence intended to
> bonafid raving lunnies out there.)

Indeed. This guy isn't a lunatic, he's a jokester with too
much time on his hands.

Filksinger

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From filkhero@usa.netDate: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:52:11 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Question on powers

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From: Anthony Jackson
>
>
> Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>
> > FTL is not impossible.  All the math says is
> that it is impossible for an
> > object with rest mass to travel *at* c: e =
> mc^2.  It is certainly possible
> > for an object to travel faster than c (although
> measuring such objects is
> > problematic).  You can accelerate
> ("deceleration" is acceleration)
> > asymptotically to c, but you can never achieve
> it while you have mass.
>
> Actually, an object with real rest mass can't
> travel faster than c, as its mass
> becomes imaginary (an object with imaginary rest
> mass, whatever that means, can
> travel faster than c but cannot travel at or
> slower than c).  As a side effect,
> any effect which travels faster than c and can
> actually transfer information
> (certain virtual objects can travel faster than c
> but have no energy or
> information content, which makes the point
> somewhat irrelevant) will allow
> causality violations; if a normal object can
> actually travel FTL that will
> imply time travel.
>

OK, OK! Bad example!

I should have known better than to use FTL as an example.
Everything said above is things I knew, but saying, "Faster
than light for things having real rest mass is impossible",
it wouldn't have had the same impact.

Filksinger

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From filkhero@usa.netDate: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:52:09 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Things I learned from Playing Champions

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From: Michael Surbrook

>
<snip>
>
> Highlander
> 310. There can be only one. Not three. One.

True. Too, too true.

I couldn't believe it when Siskel and Ebert said that
Highlander III made them wish for Highlander II- until I saw
it.

Filksinger

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From jonesmj@cqu.edu.auDate: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:59:36 +1000
From: happyelf <jonesmj@cqu.edu.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weird Powers



Burleson's wrote:

> ----------
> > From: John Desmarais <
> > >
> > Nope, but if you can describe the character's power clearly and
> > concisely I'm sure that the folks on the list can tell you how to
> > write him up (actually, the excercise of coming up with a clear power
> > description will usually make things clearer for yourself as well).
> >
> >
>
> Well his intro bio says: "... is an empathic siphon, capable of converting
> emotional energy into raw power, taking the form of increased muscle mass."
>
> Clear as mother's milk to me.:)

boost to strength, prescence and body, do it either as aid (which doesn't
effect figured)
or just a straight bonus bought 'only in highly emotional situations'. it
depends on wether
he siphons or DRAINS, but i assume it's an 'ambient energy' situation. Here's a
possibility:

+20 strength: only in highly emotional situations (-1/4) (16)
+10 body, only in highly emotional situations (-1/4) (16)
+10 pre (bulked up, probably glowing eyes, ect) only in (as above, -1/4)(8),
plus maybe an 'only for offensive pre attacks' or somesuch



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From qts@nildram.co.ukDate: Fri, 31 Jul 98 19:09:44 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:27:18 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>	PhotoCynthia, ther verdant menace, had broken into Metro City's
>Botanical Garden to 'liberate' a rare mutant strain of fast growing
>nightshade.  Metro City's resident superhero, the Flasher, springs into
>action, unaware of PhotoCynthia's flora-physiology.  Using her solar based
>powers, the Flasher leaps into action, trying to take the green-thumbed
>miscreant out the easy way with a Solar Flare (Light based Flash versus
>sight).
>	PhotoCynthia, whose skin is fed by such light based attacks,
>laughs heartily, for the Flasher's powers only serve to stregnthen her
>photosynthetic energies!!! (Absorbtion vs. Light based attacks to END
>reserve)
>	
>	PsiPhon is a being from the M-Dimension, a world parallel to our
>own comprised of mental energy.  He feeds upon the 'wavelegnths' that
>derive all mental energy, but the 'waves' from Mentor's (a mentalist's)
>EGO blast are particularily tasty (Absorbtion versus Mental SFX).
>	'The fools!' PsiPhon thinks to himself.  'Soon, the entire Brain-
>Gang will be here to try and stop me!!!  And in doing so, they will only
>bolster my power, feeding me unbtil I am strong enough to take over the
>universe!!!  Muhahahahaha!!!!!'
>
>	...problem is, is there a mechanic for Absorbtion vs. Flash or
>Absorbtion vs. Mental?

Yes - it's standard. Per HSR p58 you absorb 1d6 character points, so 1
point of Flash 'damage' is worth 10 CP (being the average result of
1d6). Mental attacks are similar.

Example: PC has 10 pts Flash Defense and 10d6 Absorbtion vs Light-based
attacks. The Flasher hits her with his 5d6 Flash and rolls 5 pips. PC
isn't Flashed, and rolls 40 on her dice, so she Absorbs 40 CP.

I find int interesting that the description specifies Character Points,
not Active Points. This means that an Absorber can absorb more from an
attack with Limitations. I've always assumed that this is a misprint.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From qts@nildram.co.ukDate: Fri, 31 Jul 98 19:13:51 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>,
    Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net>
Subject: Re: Things I learned from Playing Champions

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:10:58 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:

>> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>>I once found a web site cvalled "Things We Learned From the Movies",
>>filled with funny and quirky satements based on scenes from movies on how
>>life should be.  Thus, I present:
>
>>Feel free to add your own.
>
>>THINGS I LEARNED FROM PLAYING CHAMPIONS
>
>The Side Effects subsection:
>
>29: When the party takes serious damage only from their own SE, the
>opposition is too weak.
>30: The party will still be just as irritated as if the opposition had done
>it.
>31: AoE and/or random target SE are funny enough to justify the reduced
>damage to the character.
>32: If the character with the AoE SE misses his roll enough, the other
>party member will make up for the reduced damage when they "correct" the
>character.
>33: A large AoE with a poor targeting roll is as good as a SE, maybe
>better.
>34: Player will only agree with the above after 2:00 A.M. when everything
>is funny--"Here, let me cast my lightning bolt. Oops!  Ha Ha hah, I just
>took a critical to my head"--<followed by gales of laughter all around>.

A GM after my own heart. Favourite side effect: 4d6 Explosive Flash
<evil GM grin>


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From qts@nildram.co.ukDate: Sat, 01 Aug 98 10:21:55 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: FFH - Monster Trainer

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:16:43 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (CDT), Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> >
>> >But then how does 'OAF' limit that power?  It doesn't.  Therefore you
>> >shouldn't get the points for it.
>> 
>> Yes it does - in your example, it's been taken away from you and can
>> then be used against you.
>
>So the OAF stays around even after I switch the points to another power in
>my pool?  That's an uncomfortable precedent...it would make me (and other
>players) wonder why I can't create an OAF magic battleaxe in my pool, give
>it to Bob, swap the points for an OAF magic sword, give it to Pete, make
>an OAF magic rubber duckie for myself, etc. 

Not exactly - it is precedented that a focus *taken* from one character
may be used by another, but *giving*, that's a different story.
 
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:26:15 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Absorbtion versus Flash/Absorbtion versus Mental

At 12:27 PM 7/31/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> ...problem is, is there a mechanic for Absorbtion vs. Flash or
>Absorbtion vs. Mental?

   Sure.  Why not?  Just use Absorption, and say it applies to Flash or
Mental attacks.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:04:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 03:35 PM 8/1/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>    I didn't see the post where you made this statement... and, frankly, I
>> don't see the parallel.  A 1000+ point Godzilla clone as a Follower for 10
>> points is totally outside the realm of the printed rules, simply because
>> Followers cost 5:1, and 1:1 if the total is greater than the owner's, and
>> Limitations are not allowed.  (Although they *are* allowed on Summon, so it
>> is theoretically possible to get that Godzilla clone for 10 points.)
>>    On the other hand, it's a relatively simple matter (mathematically
>> speaking) to extend the Damage Reduction table using the formula of +25% to
>> Reduction for 2x points.  For that matter, it would be *theoretically*
>> possible to get 125% Damage Reduction for four times the cost of 75%, thus
>> *getting back* STUN and BODY when hit -- though just try getting that past
>> any GM (even if it does cost 240 points per damage type, if resistant).
>>
>
>this is the exact opposite of what makes sence to me. You HAVE followers,you
>can GET a 1000 point follower for 200 points (depending on your own points
>level).
>The only thing wrong is the cost.
>you DON'T HAVE 100% damage reduction! how can you argue that it lies more
>within the rules than 10 pt gozilla? ones a mis-cost issue, the others a
>non-existant power
>AND a mis-cost.

   The last sentence was basically my point.  (Though I do believe that
Damage Reduction does exist as a Power, and that the cost is a simple
mathematical extrapolation.)
   So then why, as you claim, are the two things so similar?

>> >i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
>> >the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE,
>> >and i'm happy to call names and stuff if that's what your after.
>>
>>    No, just remember to put your counterarguments on the same plane as the
>> arguments you get.  If someone makes a point mathematically, don't argue
>> philosophy.
>
>your math is impeccable. if the chart progresses as you claim- 25, 50, 75,
>100,then you are correct. but the chart does not progress in that fasion.
>your PRIMARY ASSUMPTION, the philosophical assumption you make,
>is flawed. Hence my replies.

   Well, let's see....
   25 is the lowest value.
   25 + 25 = 50, the second value.
   50 + 25 = 75, the third value.

   10 is the lowest value (for cost of Normal, non-resistant Reduction).
   10 x 2 = 20, the second value.
   20 x 2 = 40, the third value.

   Seems to me that the fashion in which the chart flows is pretty clear:
add 25 to the percentage, double the cost.  Adding a fourth entry with 100
and 80 (respectively) is mathematically logical.
   As to the philosophical discussion:

><one more time: capitals for emphasis>no, the damage reduction table makes
>perfect sence- your reading of it
>is JUST PLAIN WRONG. The whole POINT of damage reduction is that
>SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH. That is the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
>upon which the power is BUILT. I am sorry that you can't see that and likely
>you never will.
>Being indestructable is a COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ISSUE, with NOTHING TO DO WITH
>DAMAGE REDUCTION, which works from the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
>that SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH! Clearly, this is NOT what being indestructable
>ENTAILS.

   OK... Then how would you price being Industructible?
   (Remember, with 75% DR and 80 Armor, there's still a threshold where
*something* can get through....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:24:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

At 06:55 PM 7/31/1998, qts wrote:
>>2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
>>   limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
>>   unless you buy Stretching or some such.
>
>No - consider a warhammer or throwing ax, Ranged HKAs if ever there
>were.

   Not Ranged.  Throwable.  (If you throw a weapon at a target, you have to
retrieve it before you can use it again.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:20:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

At 07:55 AM 7/31/1998 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> 2) Aaron Allston does not agree with us. He thinks that HKA inherently
>>    limits the radius of the power to your hex and the ones surrounding it,
>>    unless you buy Stretching or some such.
>
>I agree with you here, but see Allston's point. Was hole in the middle or
>personal immunity included?  I feel you need that with an AE that starts on
>your hex.

   Maybe what's needed here is a new AE: Reach.  It goes only as far as you
can reach, but automatically includes Personal Immunity (or, at least,
doesn't include yourself directly).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:46:38 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Fwd: drivel: Light Bulbs on the Internet

   This is something my wife got forwarded from her sister, and I asked her
to forward it to me, so I could forward it to you.  The original newsgroup
it appeared on wasn't even remotely related to what we do (it was a
Knitting newsgroup), but a lot of it looked hauntingly familiar.  It just
goes to show that some things really are pretty universal!  ;-]

>>>>>Light Bulbs on the Internet
>>>>>
>>>>>How many people does it take to change a light bulb in cyberspace?
>>>>>
>>>>>1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the mail list
>>>>>that the light bulb has been changed.
>>>>>
>>>>>14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the
>>>>>light bulb could have been changed differently.
>>>>>
>>>>>7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>>27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
>>>>>bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>>53 to flame the spell checkers.
>>>>>
>>>>>156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb
>>>>>discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.
>>>>>
>>>>>41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
>>>>>
>>>>>109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take
>>>>>this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb.
>>>>>
>>>>>203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
>>>>>alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
>>>>>
>>>>>111 to defend the posting to this list, saying that, "We are all using
>>>>>light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list."
>>>>>
>>>>>306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to
>>>>>buy the best light bulbs, what brands of light bulb work best for this
>>>>>technique, and what brands are faulty.
>>>>>
>>>>>27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>>14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and to post corrected
>>>>>URLs.
>>>>>
>>>>>3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
>>>>>list, which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.
>>>>>
>>>>>33 to collate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
>>>>>and footers, and then add "Me Too."
>>>>>
>>>>>12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
>>>>>handle the light bulb controversy.
>>>>>
>>>>>19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
>>>>>
>>>>>4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
>>>>>
>>>>>1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
>>>>>
>>>>>47 to say that this is just what this list was meant for, leave it here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>143 votes for a new list alt.lite.bulb.
>>>>>
>>>>>38 votes proclaiming the advantages in using vintage light bulbs.

   Of course, a Light Bulb under 4th Edition is a Fragile OIF for Change
Environment, though in TUSV I mention using a variation on Images that
might make its way into 5th Edition....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:24:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A site to offend everyone.

At 12:06 PM 8/1/1998 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>Offended?  Nah.  Laughed myself silly reading it, but.  All you 
>can do is ignore raving lunnies like him.  (No offence intended to 
>bonafid raving lunnies out there.)

   None taken.  ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:39:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disembodied Brains are People Too.

At 12:32 PM 7/31/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>I'm working on a Disembodied Brain NPC who is an extremely intelligent
>mentalist mutant whose brain was divorced from his body and can survive
>outside of a human body in a properly prepared nutrient bath (and limited
>ammounts of time outside of the bath).
>My problems come in the form of:
> Physical Limitations- How many?  He has no body (no manipulatory
>appendages, no ability to move, etc.), no 'natural' senses (sight,
>hearing, smell, taste, touch), and no ability to communicate.
> However, some of these disadvantages would be offset by certain
>Mentalist Abilities (360 degree Mental sensing Sense, Mind Scan,
>Telepathy, and Mind Link).
> I need to know how I should break the Disadvantages up.

   When I built a disembodied brain NPC, I didn't even build him as a
regular character; I built him as an AID.  That way, I didn't worry about
the "No Body" Physical Limitations, but just built up from there.
   Something I didn't do in this case, but you might consider, is adding
DEF and BODY as Characteristics for the AID, using Vehicles as a model.
   Oh, and remember to include a Dependence on the nutrient bath.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

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From bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:53:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

At 03:24 PM 8/1/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>> > i mean hey, you can ignore the point if you want, i mean it's not like
>> > the 100% dr construct is based on anything that MAKES SENCE,
>>
>> You mean, like...a mathematical extrapolation of current Damage Reduction
>> levels and point costs? (Which is where the 120 pts - 100% rDR came from)
>>
>> The series 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 continues with...4/4.*
>> The series 15, 30, 60 continues with...120.
>
>no, the power is constructed not from simple math, but game concepts as
>well.the fractions are not the issue, the issue is what the power is used
for.
>This power
>is used when you want to reduce the damage taken, but not negate it
cimpletly.
>It's used to depict many things, but not bulletproof types- such a concept
is the
>antithisis of the damage reduction power.

   But how is what's described something that doesn't make sense?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member]
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)
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From susano@access.digex.netDate: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:15:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: >>>Anime Ninja Crusher Strike!<<<

On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>    Maybe what's needed here is a new AE: Reach.  It goes only as far as you
> can reach, but automatically includes Personal Immunity (or, at least,
> doesn't include yourself directly).

How's this:

NEW ADVANTAGE: 
When designing certain types of "punch-everyone-around-me" maneuvers, it
rapidly became apparent that the Area of Effect options in the Hero System
Rulebook don't quite work.  AOE -  Radius results in too large of an area,
and AOE -  One Hex doesn't expand properly to allow one to affect adjacent
hexes.  To resolve this problem a new type of Area of Effect was created:
Area Effect Adjacent Hexes (+3/4).  This type of power affects all 6
adjacent hexes, and only those six.  Like AOE -  One Hex, you can't
increase it's size (if you want to do that, take AOE - Radius with hole in
the middle or personal immunity).

Note that this is intended as a "melee" AOE - as such, it should usually
have Selective or Nonselective applied to it (so that you roll versus the
defender's DCV, rather than versus a hex DCV of 3).  Exceptions can be
made for special effects that clearly affect the whole area of the hex
(using a dozen tentacles, for example, or a table).

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *   
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             *
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From miq@teleport.com
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Powers set Hero has trouble with

Bob Greenwade says:
>    The last sentence was basically my point.  (Though I do believe that
> Damage Reduction does exist as a Power, and that the cost is a simple
> mathematical extrapolation.)

reduction exists, invulnerable does not.

>    So then why, as you claim, are the two things so similar?
> 
>    Well, let's see....
>    25 is the lowest value.
>    25 + 25 = 50, the second value.
>    50 + 25 = 75, the third value.
> 
>    10 is the lowest value (for cost of Normal, non-resistant Reduction).
>    10 x 2 = 20, the second value.
>    20 x 2 = 40, the third value.
> 
>    Seems to me that the fashion in which the chart flows is pretty clear:
> add 25 to the percentage, double the cost.  Adding a fourth entry with 100
> and 80 (respectively) is mathematically logical.

No.  Its double the cost, for half the damage THAT GETS THROUGH!  the last
three words are the key to DR, DAMAGE GETS THROUGH.  All seem to agree that
the initial start doesn't really fall neatly in the linnear extrapolation,
but it has to start somewhere.

Thus your simple math chart should be a small program:

1) y = x points == a bunch of damage gets through
2) y = 2x points == half the damage gets through
3) y = 2y points == half of the last level gets through
4) go to step 3 and repeat

>    As to the philosophical discussion:
> 
> ><one more time: capitals for emphasis>no, the damage reduction table makes
> >perfect sence- your reading of it
> >is JUST PLAIN WRONG. The whole POINT of damage reduction is that
> >SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH. That is the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
> >upon which the power is BUILT. I am sorry that you can't see that and likely
> >you never will.
> >Being indestructable is a COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ISSUE, with NOTHING TO DO WITH
> >DAMAGE REDUCTION, which works from the PRIMARY ASSUMPTION
> >that SOME DAMAGE GETS THROUGH! Clearly, this is NOT what being indestructable
> >ENTAILS.

Happyelf, you summed up this very well.

>    OK... Then how would you price being Industructible?
>    (Remember, with 75% DR and 80 Armor, there's still a threshold where
> *something* can get through....)

Indestructible should be based upon the campaign for costs.  Or not even
assigned a cost.

Example:  

You have a player that wants to be Indestructible, have him make a character
on 0 points + 50 disads, of his "other" stuff, and just say he's
indestructible.  All damage is ignored, he gets to play with the big boys,
and he doesn't do much in the way of anything beyond a normal.  One of his
disads is NCM.

Or
You pick a level that is based on your campaign.  If you are playing in a
12 dc 250 point game, 120 points for indestructible seems reasonable for
one type of damage.  If you are playing in a 20 dc 500 point game, its a
bit unreasonable.  There could be a brick with 40 defenses fully resistent
and 50% reduction to Physical, that brick has spent 90 points in physical
defenses to still take 5 to 10 stun per attack.  It is out of proportion to
let him toss all that and for an additional 30 points ignore everything.
In this case it would make more sense to have it cost 200 or so. 

However, there are no absolutes in the game system, unless the GM makes
them.  If you have a guy who has a 70 str, he might be the strongest in the
world, but there is a possibility for there to be someone with 75 str.

In the comics the really tough guys might seem "nigh invulnerable" but
eventually there is something that gets through.

I think the point about being in the (granted absurd) center of a star
should not be ignored by some wimpy bunsen burner dude.

When someone says they are indestructible, how so?  What is the limit?
None?  If they were hit by a bus, they ignore it.  What about having a tank
dropped on him?  What about a battle ship?  What about a full oil tanker?
What about a large meteor landing on him?  Eventually, even if it hits the
scale of the absurd, there is going to be a limit to how much that
character can really truely just ignore.

Just as Bob has had good experience with his player "Lucky" in a campaign,
I and others on this list have had good experience with having damage
reduction not reach an absolute, the doubel cost for half gets through
works.  I have played with other characters that had 7/8th reduction and it
was balanced at that level (granted rather higher than some of the close
minds on this list seem to fathom.....).

-- 
__
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com  
Tualatin, OR

 

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