Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 106
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 8:13 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #106
champ-l-digest Wednesday, December 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 106
In this issue:
Re: Zero phase actions
Re: Time Stop
Re: San Angelo
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Re: 95 years ago...
Re: Zero phase actions
Re: San Angelo
unsubscribe me, pleeease!
Re: Zero phase actions
RE: New Skill: Meditation
RE: House Rule: Please Comment
RE: New Skill: Meditation
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: Zero phase actions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:02:53 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Zero phase actions
> This brings up an interesting question (at least, to MY mind).
>
> How do you figure the cost of an advantage to a characteristic that you
>have not increased over the base (i.e. FREE) points?
> For instance, in the above example, if the desolid character only had
>his original base STR of 10, how much would it cost to add Affects Solid World?
They still have a point value, so I don't see it being a problem. 10 points
of Strength has a cost value of 10 whether you got given them free or
purchased them, so the +2 value would apply to 10, and therefor cost 20 points.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:46:15 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Time Stop
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> I wouldn't worry about it. There's an episode of "Batman: the Animated
>Series" where the Clock King does something very similar. Also, there was
>an episode of the "Twilight Zone" revival in the '70s where something very
>similar is done.
>---
and thent here was the episode of tng where people got trapped on the
holodeck during a western computer game and something went wrong, and we all
know jere THAT came from . .
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:41:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo
At 01:44 PM 12/22/98 -0800, Eric Chaves wrote:
>I just picked up San Angelo yesterday and I was wondering how other people
>integrate the rest of the Champions Universe with San Angelo. I'm planning
>to start a new campain after the holidays.
>
>Thanks for any advice.
Well, considering that SACoH is intended to describe a whole new
superhero universe that is separate and distinct from the Champions
Universe, probably very few GMs do that. Some, but very few.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:31:34 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
- -----Original Message-----
From: Hudson, Robert <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 6:38 AM
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
>At 12:52 PM Dec 18 Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come
>into play because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only
>for a 4DC attack.
>
> [I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - apologies all!]
>
> True enough. But by the same token, an HKA bought with Armor
>Piercing retains the advantage on the extra dice given to the HKA from the
>user's STR - without requiring that the AP be purchased for the higher
>total.
>
the higher purchase occurs in how the strength adds to the dc.
15 pts of baste str is +1 dc- but if the ka has a +1 combat advantage,
then you need 30 str to add +1 dc. .
> How do you resolve this double standard?
>
> Rob Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:28:36 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: 95 years ago...
- -----Original Message-----
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: 95 years ago...
>
>>
>>95 years ago, two young men - both high-school drops outs - who made their
>>living repairing bicycles, accomplished a feat deemed impossible by many
>>of their fellows.
>>
>>They flew.
>
>And less than 70 years later we accomplished a feat that was considered
>only in the realm of science fiction . . .
>
>We landed a man on the moon.
>
>
>
and someday, with work, we'll invent airline food that can be eaten.
TO THE FUTURE!
>Geek Code
>***************************************************************************
*
>GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++
!V
>po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
>***************************************************************************
*
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:39:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Zero phase actions
At 02:19 PM 12/22/98 -0800, Dale Ward wrote:
>Greetings!
>
>---Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
>
>> It's beyond rules raping; it's a violation of the rules to allow any
>> zero phase action in the middle of a Phase. The general rule is that zero
>> phase actions can be performed only at the beginning of a Phase; "no-time"
>> actions can be performed at any time. (It's not explicitly in HSR4, but it
>> is the general consensus of how things should be treated, from a list
>> discussion about 3 yrs ago.) To do the above would require Affects Solid
>> World (a +1 Advantage) on STR.
First, to correct a typo: This should be a +2 Advantage.
> This brings up an interesting question (at least, to MY mind).
>
> How do you figure the cost of an advantage to a characteristic that you
>have not increased over the base (i.e. FREE) points?
> For instance, in the above example, if the desolid character only had
>his original base STR of 10, how much would it cost to add Affects Solid
World?
Any advantage to STR (or any other Characteristic) should be based on
its total value. Thus, Affects Solid World (again, that's a +2 Advantage,
not +1) on 10 STR would cost 20 points.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:25:40 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: San Angelo
At 01:44 PM 12/22/1998 -0800, Eric Chaves wrote:
>I just picked up San Angelo yesterday and I was wondering how other people
>integrate the rest of the Champions Universe with San Angelo.
Speaking only for myself, I don't. It's possible I'm about to argue a
point of pure semantics here, so first let me try to make myself clear:
I interpret the phrase "integrate the rest of the Champions Universe with
San Angelo" to mean that you want to use the city of San Angelo as the
focal point of your game universe, and surround that city with elements
from the Champions Universe; I would usually interpret the phrase
"integrate San Angelo with the rest of the Champions Universe" to mean that
you play in the Champions Universe at large and want to drop the city of
San Angelo into that universe. If the former is not what you had in mind,
or if you see not distinction between the two quoted passages, you can
probably ignor everything else I have to say.
Still with me? Okay, then. Here's the distinction I make between the two
quoted phrases: to me, the first implies that San Angelo is the important
part of the game, and that if elements from the Champions Universe have to
be shaped to fit San Angelo, they will be. The second suggests the
opposite to me: that you use the Champions Universe more or less as is, and
if you have to make changes to San Angelo in order to fit it into the
Champions Universe, you will.
San Angelo is designed for ease of customization, so fitting it into a
Champions Universe campaign should be no problem. Retooling the Champions
Universe to fit San Angelo would be much more difficult, and probably
unnecessary. The San Angelo product line (see partial list of scheduled
releases below) will expand on the foundation of San Angelo: City of Heroes
and create the San Angelo Universe. So I figure (again, speaking only for
myself and not as someone on a mission) if you're going to run campaigns in
San Angelo, why rework the old Champions Universe when you're being
provided with a new one that's a custom fit for your chosen campaign
setting? There's plenty of material in SACoH alone to keep you and your
players busy until the next few sourcebooks come out.
If your "new" campaign is meant to feature new characters and a new local
setting, but in the universe you're already familiar with, then it sounds
like you're just tweaking San Angelo to fit it into the Champions Universe.
Only you can say what specific changes you'd have to make in order to do
that, but again, it should be easy to do.
Damon
** This has not been a paid advertisement for Gold Rush Games, Inc. :) **
avail. San Angelo: City of Heroes
Jan'99 Enemies of San Angelo
Spr'99 Denizens of San Angelo
Mar'99 Chinatown
Mar'99 Mystic San Angelo
Apr'99 Pulp San Angelo
May'99 Lockdown: Enemies Incarcerated
Jun'99 Armed Forces: Military Sourcebook
Jul'99 New Century City: East Coast Metropolis
Aug'99 Shades of Gray: Streets of San Angelo
Sep'99 San Angelo Worldwide
Oct'99 Third World: International Sourcebook
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:30:04 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: unsubscribe me, pleeease!
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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sorry topost this on the list, but this is my last day on this email =
addy and i want to be sure this gets through
unsubscribe jonesl@pronet.com.au
See ya after christmas. . . maybe my new email addy will allow me to. . =
use my real net-name!
"Enslave humanity willya?"
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>sorry topost this on the list, but =
this is my=20
last day on this email addy and i want to be sure this gets =
through</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>unsubscribe <A=20
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>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>See ya after christmas. . . maybe my new email addy =
will allow=20
me to. . use my real net-name!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>"Enslave humanity=20
willya?"</FONT></DIV>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:04:53 EST
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zero phase actions
In a message dated 12/22/98 9:45:11 AM Central Standard Time,
bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
> >Desolidification: Again, activating a power has been considered a zero
phase
> >action. With desolid, can a character become desolid, fly through a wall,
> >become solid, perform a move by and again go desolid through another wall
> >all in the same phase? This seems to be a bit of rules raping when it
> comes
> >to activating a power.
>
> It's beyond rules raping; it's a violation of the rules to allow any
> zero phase action in the middle of a Phase. The general rule is that zero
> phase actions can be performed only at the beginning of a Phase; "no-time"
> actions can be performed at any time. (It's not explicitly in HSR4, but it
> is the general consensus of how things should be treated, from a list
> discussion about 3 yrs ago.) To do the above would require Affects Solid
> World (a +1 Advantage) on STR.
Not according to how I read it in HSR4... "The zero (0) phase actions can be
done at the beginning or the middle of a Phase, as many different ones as
wished, but not after an attack." pg 140. Also, "A power can be turned on or
off at the beginning of the Phase or after a character have performed his
first half-Phase, but not at any other time."
From that, it looks like the desolid character in the example could almost do
everything up to the move through, at which point he's solid, and his Phase
ends. I say almost because the Move through is a full phase movment, not a
half move and an attack. But it does look like a desolid character could turn
desolid, fly through a wall, turn desolid off, and then perform a half Phase
attack. People will probably debate the 'or' in both sentences, though...
just a feeling :).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:36:35 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: New Skill: Meditation
From: qts [mailto:qts@nildram.co.uk]
<snip>
> That's going to be an administrative nightmare - the GM will have to
> note every PER roll!
Not at all. He simply notes that the character _would have_ seen it,
and marks it on a tally sheet.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:36:22 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: House Rule: Please Comment
From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "F" == Filksinger <filksinger@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> This is all or nothing, in that you can't have things like "He
> F> hesitates, then continues. However, his movements are
> slowed, as if he
> F> is fighting the control", or "He screams, 'I can't
> control myself much
> F> longer! Get out, before I kill you all!" You can kludge
> them, but the
> F> don't exist under the standard Mind Control as written.
>
> That is because these are all...
>
> wait for it...
>
> SPECIAL EFFECTS OF FAILING THE BREAKOUT ROLL!!!
That's an awful lot of hoopla for such a poor answer.
Mind Control, in virtually all genre's where it exists, exhibits
examples which match the above description which are clearly _not_
just "SPECIAL EFFECTS OF FAILING THE BREAKOUT ROLL!!!", no matter how
obnoxiously you 'shout' it. People who are paralyzed for seconds,
minutes, or hours, trying to fight the effects of a Mind Control
command, then give in or win and free themselves, allowing others time
to escape them or capture them. People who can resist for a while, but
like an alcoholic, will slip in a moment of weakness. People who
follow the command "kill your brother!", but do it so badly that the
brother, who was always the second-best fighter, can defeat the victim
without killing him.
Mind Control, as it is now, is much more of an "all or nothing"
approach than it is in almost all examples in the literature. In
almost all cases in the literature where the "Mind Control" can be
resisted, there exist delays, slowdowns, moments of hesitation which
are significant in game terms, sometimes very much so. In HERO, the
victim either carries out the commands with the same abilities he
would if he was fully enthusiastic, or he refuses outright. There is
no middle ground except for insignificant an "SPECIAL EFFECTS OF
FAILING THE BREAKOUT ROLL!!!"
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:48:16
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: New Skill: Meditation
On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:36:35 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>From: qts [mailto:qts@nildram.co.uk]
>
><snip>
>> That's going to be an administrative nightmare - the GM will have to
>> note every PER roll!
>
>Not at all. He simply notes that the character _would have_ seen it,
>and marks it on a tally sheet.
Exactly - just in case the character uses his power. I'd go for the
Eidetic Memory or highly limited retrognition.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:50:28 -0600
From: "Michael" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
>> SPECIAL EFFECTS OF FAILING THE BREAKOUT ROLL!!!
One small topic that was never covered in the question... what was the
special effect of the Mind Control?
A mind altering drug that makes the target follow the commands of the evil
Dr.?
A powerful egoist who takes control of the mind of her victim?
The puppet master... who controls the bodies of his victims?
3 special effects, each the same 12d6 mind control, but you could argue
from now till Hero 6th edition about what the target would be able to do
under each.
It's a GM's call... there is no way you can make a blanket statement to
cover each use. If you as the GM feel the target could yell.. "I"m being
controlled, get away." that's fine, just be consistent on your rulings.
------------------------------
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:11:06 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> People who are paralyzed for seconds, minutes, or hours, trying to fight
F> the effects of a Mind Control command, then give in or win and free
F> themselves, allowing others time to escape them or capture them.
Please, show me where in the BBB it states that the victim of Mind Control
always performs commands immediately, without hesitation. I cannot find it.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:52:57 -0800
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <davidn@edmark.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> People who are paralyzed for seconds, minutes, or hours, trying to fight
>F> the effects of a Mind Control command, then give in or win and free
>F> themselves, allowing others time to escape them or capture them.
>
>Please, show me where in the BBB it states that the victim of Mind Control
>always performs commands immediately, without hesitation. I cannot find
it.
So, if you used Mind Control on a villain in my campaign and told him to
attack his allies, and you succeeded, but I declared that he fought you for
two Turns before acting, you wouldn't object?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:01:34 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Zero phase actions
At 09:17 PM 12/22/98 -0800, Eric Wylie wrote:
>Desolidification: Again, activating a power has been considered a zero phase
>action. With desolid, can a character become desolid, fly through a wall,
>become solid, perform a move by and again go desolid through another wall
>all in the same phase? This seems to be a bit of rules raping when it comes
>to activating a power.
I wouldn't allow that, strictly on the basis that you've effectively
let a desolid character affect the solid world without paying the
Advantage costs.
My other impulse -- although this one may be somewhat debatable --
is that as soon as you hit the target on the move by, you've
ended your phase (with the exception that he can still run out
his move by) and cannot activate any other powers.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #106
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