Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 113

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 7:00 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #113 
 
 
champ-l-digest       Tuesday, December 29 1998       Volume 01 : Number 113 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Define Loss of Balance 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Precise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI  (Elem.Controls) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
    Skill Levels and DEX 
    Re: Let's do the time warp... again? 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 19:04:03  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Define Loss of Balance 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:44:08 -0800 (PST), Brent Sadler wrote: 
 
>I'm looking for a way to define losing one's balance. Special effect 
>would be messing with inner ear, or vertigo, for example. 
> 
>I'm considering Dex Drain, but looking for other alternatives from 
>this august assembly. :> 
 
How about Flash? Sense of Balance is one of the Unusual Senses. 
 
Anyone got the Oil Slick thread summarized? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 18:57:29  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:41:22 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of his head. If you 
>flash him, he extends new ones. 
> 
>Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
 
Simple Hardened Flash Defense (but lots of it) with N easily 
recoverable charges (if you only have one extra set of eyes, you're 
stuffed if you get flashed twice in quick succession). Further you 
could say that if a Flash exceeds the FD, it's so powerful that it's 
got through and affected all the spare eyes. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 18:42:42  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:18:20 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>>>>     Precognitive Abilities: 
><snip> 
>> 
>>>>10 2 Combat Skill Levels: DCV only 
>>> 
>>>DCV Only is a -1 Limitation, so this is 5 pts. 
>> 
>>The way I'm reading the book, I don't think she would get a limitation. 
>>A 5-point CSL is usually +1 with a wide group of attacks, but "can serve 
>>as a +1 DCV against all attacks, if bought as such" (p. 22, Champs 
>>Deluxe).  I think the lim is already factored in.  Rat, are you following 
>>this thread?  Anything in the errata about this? 
> 
> 
>Not in the errata, but in the rules themselves. Levels only add to DCV vs 
>Ranged attacks (as opposed to HTH), if the levels are 8 pt. Levels, 10 pt. 
>Levels, or 5 pt. Levels bought "DCV Only". 
 
Yes, and then the rules go on to say, 'Finally, the 5 pt CSL is the 
smallest CSL that can be bought with Limitations.' 
 
Not to apply a Limitation here makes no sense - you could have +6 DEX 
[18], Affects DCV Only -1 1/2 (possibly even -2) for 8 (or 6) pts. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:00:25 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
 
 
<snip> 
>You're right, Eidetic Memory doesn't give you a perfect memory.  It does 
>give you near perfect recall, which is all the character needs.  The 
>player's memory isn't perfect, and neither is the GM's, so they're going to 
>have to cooperate in faking a "perfect" memory for the character anyway. 
>The character can remember everything he's heard, seen or read, for 
>example?  Fine.  Can the player and GM remember, perfectly, exactly what 
>the character has and has not heard, seen or read? 
 
 
The description of Eidetic Memory is not exactly clear on what gets 
memorized, but does indicate that the character does not perfectly recall 
everything that happens. It seems to imply a deliberate effort to memorize. 
 
That said, I still think that Eidetic Memory needs more detail. If not 
additional levels of effect, then exactly what the character remembers 
perfectly, nearly perfectly, and/or much the same as everyone else. I've had 
GMs who said that you have to actually study and memorize things to those 
who said, "Sure, you remember the entire completely unmemorable conversation 
from when you were six." 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:53:42 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
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>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of his head. If 
>F> you flash him, he extends new ones. 
> 
>F> Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
> 
>Flash Defense (Sight) 15.  SFX: Extra eyes inside of his head that he 
>extends as required. 
 
 
I thought of that. Under the present rules, I'd probably do that. However, 
it falls quite a bit short. Under the present rules, assuming SPD of 4 all 
around, this character could be blinded for two Turns by a Flash that 
blinded a human for only a minute. Somehow that doesn't seem to simulate a 
quarter-inch plate of titanium as a shield for his eyes. This character's 
eyes should _melt_ before he gets blinded by a bright light- heat 
penetrating most armors much better than light. If someone shines a light on 
your armor bright enough to be seen right through it, being temporarily 
blinded by bright lights is the _least_ of your worries. 
 
How about buying Extra Eyes, like we buy Extra Limbs? Extra Eyes can be kept 
out of sight to prevent blindness, or can be used to look around blindfolds, 
etc. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 18:48:40  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:09:21 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
 
>>>>       	Psych Limitations: 
>>>>10	  Afraid to tell others about her visions (uncommon, strong) 
>>>> 
>>>Surely this is going to seriously adversely affect her interactions 
>>>with the other PCs? 
>>> 
> <discussion of other things Anita can do snipped> 
>> 
>>But how quickly are the other PCs going to start saying things like, 
>>"We can see you've just seen something; you *must* tell us."? 
> 
>I didn't keep my statistics textbook, so I can't number-crunch this, but 
>I think a 9- would only turn up every fourth adventure or so.  Of course, 
>it does depend on just how badly scrambled she gets when she has a vision 
>-- if she passes out, they'll catch on sooner than if she just stares 
>into space for a minute or two. 
 
With only a 2d6 Stun, she won't do either. Anyway, I would suggest you 
look forward to when the power is more reliable. How about reversing 
it? This way the power could have two side effects - the Stun which 
always happens, and a false vision which happens if the activation roll 
fails. 
 
 
>>>>10	Susceptability: 2d6 STUN from precognitive visions 
>>>>	  (instant effect, uncommon) 
>>> 
>>>This should be a Side Effect of the Power, not a Disadvantage. How many 
>>>people are going to hit her with a Precog UAO? 
>>> 
>>Sorry, I didn't phrase that clearly.  When her visions occur, she takes 
>>2d6 STUN.  The lowest level of Side Effects would require taking 30 
>>points of effect on a 45 active point power, and IMHO that's a little 
>out 
>>of scale.  Susceptability seemed like a more balanced approach. 
>> 
>>So make it a Stun Drain with a long recovery interval. Anyway, 2d6 Stun 
>>is hardly limiting - she'd get it all back within a Turn from 
>>Recoveries - and the power isn't going to happen often enough to make 
>>it noticeable. If you're looking for the 'fainting fit' type, then you 
>>need far more - 6d6 or so. 
> 
>I didn't want her passing out, but you have a point -- maybe combine a 
>Stun Drain with a End Drain.  One of the examples for Side Effects uses 
>two Psych Lims to get the required number of points, so two Drains should 
>be legit. 
 
I still object to it as a Disadvantage - it needs to be a Side Effect. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:14:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> >And as no doubt you noticed, a lot of people on this list HATE Elemental 
> >Controls for some reason. 
>  
> Hehehe! I don't have a problem with ECs - I just say that a Drain vs 1 
> power starts to affect all the other powers once the Drain bites into 
> the points which come from the EC. 
 
I don't mind ECs either... I just don't like the idea of a EC of 
characteristics. 
 
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com  
http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:47:37 -0800 (PST) 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
Filksinger writes: 
> From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
> >Filksinger writes: 
> >> OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of his head. If 
> you 
> >> flash him, he extends new ones. 
> >> 
> >> Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
> > 
> >Uh, Flash Defense, defined as having extra eyes inside his head? 
>  
> How much Flash Defense is a titanium skull? Enough light to Flash this 
> character should cook his computer brain and eyes before the Flash ever got 
> through. Normals in the area would probably vaporize before his inner eyes 
> were blinded by a bright light. 
 
Can't answer that question -- it depends on the campaign.  Give him an 
appropriate amount of Flash Defense to deal with the biggest Flash you 
expect, make it Hardened if you're worried. 
 
- --  
  Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell 
 [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] 
      "... nothing wrong with Southern California that a rise in the ocean 
                    level wouldn't cure."  -- Ross Macdonald 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:40:32 -0800 (PST) 
From: miq@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Precise Measurements 
 
Filksinger says: 
>  
> From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
>  
>  
> <snip> 
> >Surely the fighter pilot above is suffering some problems 
> >such as OCV penalties because he's used to using 2 eyes 
> >for targeting his guns. 
>  
>  
> Nope. Your eyes don't give depth perception for distances that help a 
> fighter pilot. Outside the cockpit, a jet-sized target that close is _much_ 
> closer than point-blank range. Inside the cockpit, if you need depth 
> perception to tell where things are, you have no business flying in combat 
> anyway. 
 
In fact the newest technology for weaponry only uses a single eyepiece. 
 
I know its partial hype and fiction, but the system used in the passably 
bad Nicholas Cage/Tommy Lee Jones movie Fire-something or other about 
helicopters is based on real technology. 
 
Don't bother with a rental, unless you really like helicopters. 
 
 
- --  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 15:15:12 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> That said, I still think that Eidetic Memory needs more detail. 
 
Eidetic Memory is a TALENT, not a POWER.  If you want more detail, look at 
Clairsentience/Retrocognition. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 15:13:50 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> I thought of that. Under the present rules, I'd probably do 
F> that. However, it falls quite a bit short. Under the present rules, 
F> assuming SPD of 4 all around, this character could be blinded for two 
F> Turns by a Flash that blinded a human for only a minute. 
 
Just FYI, such a Flash would have an active point total of around 170 
points.  If you are playing in a 36DC campaign, buying ~45 points of Flash 
Defense would be appropriate and equivalently as inexpensive as buying ~15 
points of Flash Defense in a 12DC campaign. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:40:06 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
 
 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:18:20 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
<snip> 
>>Not in the errata, but in the rules themselves. Levels only add to DCV vs 
>>Ranged attacks (as opposed to HTH), if the levels are 8 pt. Levels, 10 pt. 
>>Levels, or 5 pt. Levels bought "DCV Only". 
> 
>Yes, and then the rules go on to say, 'Finally, the 5 pt CSL is the 
>smallest CSL that can be bought with Limitations.' 
> 
>Not to apply a Limitation here makes no sense - you could have +6 DEX 
>[18], Affects DCV Only -1 1/2 (possibly even -2) for 8 (or 6) pts. 
 
 
Absolutely not. If you have a Skill, Talent, or Power that you want, you 
cannot take a more powerful version of a Skill, Talent, or Power, put a 
limit on it, and thus create a cheaper version that duplicates the weaker 
version but for fewer points. There already exists a method spelled out for 
creating Combat Levels "DCV Only, works vs Ranged attacks". You can't create 
the exact same effect for cheaper by limiting more powerful Combat Levels. 
 
Furthermore, a -1 1/2 or -2 Limitation is way overboard. "Only at night" is 
only -1/2. A +1 w/ HTH combat is 5 pts. If I used your limitation, I could 
buy +1 HTH, DCV Only (-1 1/2) and +1 HTH, OCV Only (-1 1/2) (since OCV and 
DCV are pretty much equal in value), and thus buy a +1 to my OCV and DCV 
simultaneously for only 4 pts. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:23:21 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:52 AM 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:41:22 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of his head. If 
you 
>>flash him, he extends new ones. 
>> 
>>Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
> 
>Simple Hardened Flash Defense (but lots of it) with N easily 
>recoverable charges (if you only have one extra set of eyes, you're 
>stuffed if you get flashed twice in quick succession). Further you 
>could say that if a Flash exceeds the FD, it's so powerful that it's 
>got through and affected all the spare eyes. 
 
 
If the character is a small sentient tank, and his extra "eyes" are stored 
behind 8 cm laminate armor plate, how much FD do you need to protect his 
eyes? Especially as humans can, in theory, just cover their eyes, or even 
close them? 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:28:03 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
 
 
<snip> 
>> >> Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
>> > 
>> >Uh, Flash Defense, defined as having extra eyes inside his head? 
>> 
>> How much Flash Defense is a titanium skull? Enough light to Flash this 
>> character should cook his computer brain and eyes before the Flash ever 
got 
>> through. Normals in the area would probably vaporize before his inner 
eyes 
>> were blinded by a bright light. 
> 
>Can't answer that question -- it depends on the campaign.  Give him an 
>appropriate amount of Flash Defense to deal with the biggest Flash you 
>expect, make it Hardened if you're worried. 
 
 
Then you will, eventually, in a long enough campaign, run into one of those 
"I have an unlimited defense against this attack! I should be immune!" "No 
you aren't, because HERO doesn't have immunity to this." 
 
Basically, we've defined a simple, real-world possible, description for a 
power that equates to infinite defense against Flash, but there is no such 
thing in HERO. 
 
I still like the idea of making the character buy Normal Sight from scratch, 
all over again. It gives a fairly reasonable cost for a one-time only 
absolute Flash Defense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:33:23 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
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>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> That said, I still think that Eidetic Memory needs more detail. 
> 
>Eidetic Memory is a TALENT, not a POWER.  If you want more detail, look at 
>Clairsentience/Retrocognition. 
 
 
Are you under the impression that shouting things convinces people? It 
doesn't; in fact, it generally does the opposite. 
 
Besides which, you didn't understand what I meant. Even if I agree that 
Eidetic Memory should have only a single, unchanging, base setting, and any 
power greater than that is really Retrocognition, that doesn't alter the 
fact that the rules are a touch vague as to what, exactly, Eidetic Memory 
gives the character. The rules are still vague as to what the limit to 
Eidetic Memory _is_. 
 
Since you seem to think that Retrocognition is useful for going into areas 
beyond Eidetic Memory (which sounds, frankly, at least as kludged as using 
Clinging to simulate "Super Climbing"), then you clearly agree that Eidetic 
Memory has a limit. However, can you tell me exactly what the limit is? 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:19:43 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
At 10:00 AM 12/29/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>The description of Eidetic Memory is not exactly clear on what gets 
>memorized, but does indicate that the character does not perfectly recall 
>everything that happens. It seems to imply a deliberate effort to memorize. 
 
Yes, but unlike Cramming it doesn't give a minimum time requirement 
(Cramming requires the character needs "several hours of study").  The 
central point of the EM Talent isn't the study, but the ability to remember 
things.  As long as player and GM agree, and if it's appropriate to the 
nature of the Talent as defined for that character, the time required to 
memorize simple audio or visual input (taking a mental "photograph") could 
be cut to a fraction of a second -- again, the description of EM implies no 
minimum time, so this doesn't seem abusive.  Memorizing entire phone books 
would still take longer, if only because it takes time to turn the pages 
and scan down the columns of names and numbers.   
 
Note, however, that the description of Speed Reading says very clearly: 
"When combined with Eidetic Memory, Speed Reading allows a character to 
memorize documents as fast as he can turn the pages."  Read it again: 
"...as fast as he can turn the pages."  In other words, no extra time is 
involved in order to commit the text to memory.  Again, this would seem to 
support the notion that the process of memorizing, in and of itself, need 
not occupy measurable amounts of the character's time. 
 
>That said, I still think that Eidetic Memory needs more detail. If not 
>additional levels of effect, then exactly what the character remembers 
>perfectly, nearly perfectly, and/or much the same as everyone else. I've had 
>GMs who said that you have to actually study and memorize things to those 
>who said, "Sure, you remember the entire completely unmemorable conversation 
>from when you were six." 
 
Perhaps it was deliberately left vague in order to allow it to cover a 
range of uses; Energy Blast, as written, intentionally leaves certain 
details out of the basic writeup, allowing players to define it as doing 
Knockback (or not), being STUN Only (or not) and being applicable to PD 
rather than ED.  The nature of the EB is defined more by the player than by 
the three paragraphs describing EB, the parameters of the EB being dictated 
by the player's definition of the Power and its SFX.  You could argue that 
the *effectiveness* of the EB is variable, depending on whether or not it 
does KB or is a STUN Only attack -- but this doesn't change the cost of the 
Power. 
 
Maybe you should think of Eidetic Memory as something that purposely isn't 
described in exacting detail, so that the player and GM can specify exactly 
how it works, which things it covers, and what degree of infallibility it 
offers; these things would be based on the nature of the Talent *as written 
for that individual character*. 
 
If you simply must have more detail, try quantifying Eidetic Memory in such 
a way that characters can buy EM more than once in order to get the degree 
of precision they want.  Speed Reading, for example, allows a person to 
read 10x faster than normal; presumably a person (or more likely, a 
computer) could buy it more than once to gain a speed multiple of 100x or 
1000x.   
 
For Eidetic Memory, you might perhaps allow the character a 90% chance (14- 
roll) to recall anything he's experienced over the last quarter of his life 
to date; buying EM a second time would give him a second die roll 
(increasing his chances to 99%) as well as extending the range of his 
memory to the latter half of his life to date; a third level of EM would 
grant a third die roll (99.9%) and allow the character to remember events 
from his entire life to date. 
 
I'm not actually recommending that change to EM; I think it works okay as 
is.  And if you do want to add detail, perhaps you can think of a better 
way of doing it.  The above was just an off-the-cuff example. 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:53:55 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> I thought of that. Under the present rules, I'd probably do 
>F> that. However, it falls quite a bit short. Under the present rules, 
>F> assuming SPD of 4 all around, this character could be blinded for two 
>F> Turns by a Flash that blinded a human for only a minute. 
> 
>Just FYI, such a Flash would have an active point total of around 170 
>points.  If you are playing in a 36DC campaign, buying ~45 points of Flash 
>Defense would be appropriate and equivalently as inexpensive as buying ~15 
>points of Flash Defense in a 12DC campaign. 
 
 
Ever play in a campaign where the heroes are hit by something incredibly 
massive compared to them? When the players are hit by, for example, a 
blinding light from a godlike being, or a nuke flash. A armored war machine 
character with extra cameras stored inside his body should be completely 
immune to such an attack (with a pause while he brings out the other 
camera), while the others are blinded for minutes or hours. 
 
Sure, it _could_ be a "campaign effect", but sometimes you want an attack 
that big spelled out in game terms, for example, when you have more than one 
campaign in the same universe and characters in one campaign (a medium-level 
game) run into a baddy from another game. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:47:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 07:17:17 -0600, Logan Darklighter wrote: 
> 
>>And as no doubt you noticed, a lot of people on this list HATE Elemental 
>>Controls for some reason. 
> 
>Hehehe! I don't have a problem with ECs - I just say that a Drain vs 1 
>power starts to affect all the other powers once the Drain bites into 
>the points which come from the EC. 
 
I don't hate them, since I more or less invented them; I do wish they'd used 
them for what they were originally used for, which was power package deals, 
though. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:44:54 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
> 
>How much Flash Defense is a titanium skull? Enough light to Flash this 
>character should cook his computer brain and eyes before the Flash ever got 
>through. Normals in the area would probably vaporize before his inner eyes 
>were blinded by a bright light. 
 
So buy about 20 points worth.  Given the progressive power system in Champs, 
I doubt there's much of anything you'd ever run into in most game universes 
that would exceed that.  If you want to be really paranoid about it, buy it 
hardened. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 17:15:28 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> If the character is a small sentient tank, and his extra "eyes" are 
F> stored behind 8 cm laminate armor plate, how much FD do you need to 
F> protect his eyes? 
 
What is the largest Flash you expect to see in the campaign?  Add about 25% 
to that, and maybe make it hardened. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:54:07 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: GENKI  (Elem.Controls) 
 
>I don't hate them, since I more or less invented them; I do wish  
>they'd used them for what they were originally used for, which  
>was power package deals, though. 
 
Let's say JJ has a body infused with Iron and Cobalt, and 
therefore he's tougher, thicker, hits harder. His eyes are 
resistant to blindness, and he can sense magnetics 
and see further into the spectrum, all because his optics 
are hardened and refined by the same fusing process. 
 
To me it sounds like UV vision and Flash defense ought 
to be in his elemental control, as well as Power Def, 
but these are all no-no for some reason. 
 
When YOU'RE building a character, what questions do you 
ask before you put a power in an EC? 
 
== 
Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:26:04 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
>>> How much Flash Defense is a titanium skull? Enough light to Flash this 
 
>>Can't answer that question -- it depends on the campaign.  Give him an 
>>appropriate amount of Flash Defense to deal with the biggest Flash you 
>>expect, make it Hardened if you're worried. 
 
>Then you will, eventually, in a long enough campaign, run into one of those 
>"I have an unlimited defense against this attack! I should be immune!" "No 
>you aren't, because HERO doesn't have immunity to this." 
 
One of the tenants of Hero Games is that you cannot have an absolute power,  
 
>Basically, we've defined a simple, real-world possible, description for a 
>power that equates to infinite defense against Flash, but there is no such 
>thing in HERO. 
 
Because there is always some way to work it.  YOu are assuming flash means 
a bright light, here we have a special effects problem.  What if the flash 
is a psionic attack on the imaging centers of the brain (typically bought 
with a limitation does not affect non organics)?  What if the flash is a 
covering over the target's eyes that is opaque (deploy all the eyes you 
want, they are all covered) etc, etc. 
 
There is no such thing as an absolute infinite flash defense because that 
isnt how the game works, based on special effects. 
 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- ----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:29:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
At 07:06 PM 12/28/98, qts wrote: 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 07:17:17 -0600, Logan Darklighter wrote: 
> 
>>And as no doubt you noticed, a lot of people on this list HATE Elemental 
>>Controls for some reason. 
> 
>Hehehe! I don't have a problem with ECs - I just say that a Drain vs 1 
>power starts to affect all the other powers once the Drain bites into 
>the points which come from the EC. 
 
   Though perhaps a bit oversimplified in its description, this is 
precisely my take on Adjustment Powers vs ECs. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Skill Levels and DEX 
 
> 
>>Not in the errata, but in the rules themselves. Levels only add to DCV vs 
>>Ranged attacks (as opposed to HTH), if the levels are 8 pt. Levels, 10 pt. 
>>Levels, or 5 pt. Levels bought "DCV Only". 
> 
>Yes, and then the rules go on to say, 'Finally, the 5 pt CSL is the 
>smallest CSL that can be bought with Limitations.' 
> 
>Not to apply a Limitation here makes no sense - you could have +6 DEX 
>[18], Affects DCV Only -1 1/2 (possibly even -2) for 8 (or 6) pts. 
>qts 
 
If you're just noticed that combat levels about the 3 point are not a good 
deal generally, welcome to Champions.  Buy extra Dex No Figured 
Characteristics (-1/2) so you get the Speed, only for CV purposes (even if 
conservative at least -1/4 since it loses the DEX rolls, skills and 
initiative aspects) and it costs just about 5 points for a CV at both ends 
for all purposes.  The relationship is broken.  That's still no excuse for 
buying bogus limitations on combat levels, or you'd be doing it _all_ the time. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:32:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Let's do the time warp... again? 
 
At 10:30 AM 7/29/98 -0400, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 01:16 PM 12/26/98 -0800, Dale Ward wrote: 
>> >Greetings! 
>> > 
>> >     Geez... you guys must have used up all your imagination trying to 
figure 
>> >out what gifts to buy for Christmas! I give you the perfect straight 
line to 
>> >give me a mental complex for years and all you can come up with are REAL 
>> >answers?!? 
>>  
>>    Well, it's a little early to be buying Christmas gifts already, isn't 
>> it?  I'm not even going to worry about it for at least a couple more 
months. 
> 
>Hey!  Real Men in Black start buying right after Independence Day! 
 
   Yeah, well, I thought I'd get a small jump on it.... 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:20:20 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
I'm forwarding this for James Jandebeur. 
 
From: James Jandebeur <james.jandebeur@esstech.com> 
 
 
 
>I can't send to the list from work, so, here: 
> 
>>> OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of  
>>> his head. If you flash him, he extends new ones. 
>>> Now, write it under the rules as they exist now. 
>> 
>>Pay for the sight sense group again and put trigger on it? 
>> 
>>just a hazard 
> 
> 
>I like it! But I wouldn't use trigger, make it voluntary. 
> 
>Filksinger 
> 
>One problem: you'd have to pay for it as many times as you can pull this 
>stunt. It could get expensive. 
> 
>As for Flash Defense: It works fine as long as you work with the GM to 
>ascertain what you need to always bounce every Flash attack that's ever 
>going to be thrown at you. As is frequently the case, like with 
>Invulnerability, this depends on the game and the GM, and there is no set 
>answer. But it does work if you have this agreement: "The highest Flash 
>Attack will be 6 dice." "Okay, so I buy 12 points Flash Defense." I'd also 
>put a limitation on it that you are always flashed for 1 phase, until the 
>eyes come out. 
> 
>James 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:27:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks) 
 
At 06:42 PM 12/29/98, qts wrote: 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:18:20 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>>>>     Precognitive Abilities: 
>><snip> 
>>> 
>>>>>10 2 Combat Skill Levels: DCV only 
>>>> 
>>>>DCV Only is a -1 Limitation, so this is 5 pts. 
>>> 
>>>The way I'm reading the book, I don't think she would get a limitation. 
>>>A 5-point CSL is usually +1 with a wide group of attacks, but "can serve 
>>>as a +1 DCV against all attacks, if bought as such" (p. 22, Champs 
>>>Deluxe).  I think the lim is already factored in.  Rat, are you following 
>>>this thread?  Anything in the errata about this? 
>> 
>> 
>>Not in the errata, but in the rules themselves. Levels only add to DCV vs 
>>Ranged attacks (as opposed to HTH), if the levels are 8 pt. Levels, 10 pt. 
>>Levels, or 5 pt. Levels bought "DCV Only". 
> 
>Yes, and then the rules go on to say, 'Finally, the 5 pt CSL is the 
>smallest CSL that can be bought with Limitations.' 
> 
>Not to apply a Limitation here makes no sense - you could have +6 DEX 
>[18], Affects DCV Only -1 1/2 (possibly even -2) for 8 (or 6) pts. 
 
   This application is what makes no sense, at least to my mind. 
   First, one doesn't buy Limited Characteristics when the same thing can 
be done with a Skill Level, even if the latter is more expensive. 
   Second, what kind of Limitation would be applied to the Combat Skill 
Levels in this case?  The only Limitation you put on the DEX was Affects 
DCV Only, and that's already covered when you buy 5-point CSLs with DCV. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:42:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
Filksinger writes: 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> >Hash: SHA1 
> > 
> >"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> > 
> >F> I thought of that. Under the present rules, I'd probably do 
> >F> that. However, it falls quite a bit short. Under the present rules, 
> >F> assuming SPD of 4 all around, this character could be blinded for two 
> >F> Turns by a Flash that blinded a human for only a minute. 
> > 
> >Just FYI, such a Flash would have an active point total of around 170 
> >points.  If you are playing in a 36DC campaign, buying ~45 points of Flash 
> >Defense would be appropriate and equivalently as inexpensive as buying ~15 
> >points of Flash Defense in a 12DC campaign. 
>  
> Ever play in a campaign where the heroes are hit by something incredibly 
> massive compared to them? When the players are hit by, for example, a 
> blinding light from a godlike being, or a nuke flash. A armored war machine 
> character with extra cameras stored inside his body should be completely 
> immune to such an attack (with a pause while he brings out the other 
> camera), while the others are blinded for minutes or hours. 
>  
> Sure, it _could_ be a "campaign effect", but sometimes you want an attack 
> that big spelled out in game terms, for example, when you have more than one 
> campaign in the same universe and characters in one campaign (a medium-level 
> game) run into a baddy from another game. 
 
When I have more than one campaign in the same universe, I figure my 
"ultimate defenses" based on the high level campaign, personally.  But 
that's just me... 
 
Anyhow.  If you would like to say "Boy, it would be nice if Hero had 
the concept of total immunity," then I will agree with you.  You can't 
do immune to damage of type X.  I'm hard-pressed to figure out a way 
to deal with this, though. 
 
- --  
  Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell 
 [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] 
      "... nothing wrong with Southern California that a rise in the ocean 
                    level wouldn't cure."  -- Ross Macdonald 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:50:40 -0600 
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@cyberramp.net> 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 2:04 PM 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> >And as no doubt you noticed, a lot of people on this list HATE Elemental 
>> >Controls for some reason. 
>> 
>> Hehehe! I don't have a problem with ECs - I just say that a Drain vs 1 
>> power starts to affect all the other powers once the Drain bites into 
>> the points which come from the EC. 
> 
>I don't mind ECs either... I just don't like the idea of a EC of 
>characteristics. 
 
 
I just had an interesting thought. What if I changed the "Reflex booster" EC 
into a multipower? That might produce interesting effects, because the 
multipower is effectively bing used simutaneusly by two pilots, one could 
get the extra SPD and/or DEX for actually piloting the thing, and the gunner 
could use the DEX and Levels in targeting for the weapons. 
 
Hmmm. Let me look at this. Okay, here's the original EC: 
 
>Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1) 
>Elemental Control (3) 
>  a - +5 DEX, doesn't add to figured (-1/2) (3) 
>  b - +1 SPD, doesn't add to figured (-1/2) (3) 
>  c - +3 Lvls w/Weapons (4) 
 
 
Here's a multipower version: 
 
Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1) 
Multipower (30 Pt Pool) (Real Cost 15) 
u - +5 DEX, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
u - +1 SPD, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
u - +3 Levels with Weapons (1) 
 
Now, since we've pretty much established that the powers of a vehicle can be 
used by both of the operators of that vehicle, as long as they're trained to 
run it, then this Multipower is available for use by both Pilot and Gunner 
simultaneusly. There are enough points in the pool so that two slots can be 
used at once. At first glance that looks like the Pilot can use one slot and 
the Gunner can use another, but that's not the way it works, at least how I 
understand it. For the purposes of the Pilot and Gunner, each having access 
to this Reflex booster means that thin effect _both_ have a separate version 
of this for themselves, as long as they're hooked up. 
 
So the Pilot can use the +5 DEX and SPD for moving the vehicle. And the 
Gunner can use the +5 DEX and +3 Levels with Weapons for targeting the 
weapons. 
 
Which means that this is a more limiting version that illustrates the need 
for having two operators to utilize the full aspects of the Genki. 
 
Now, the Pilot _could_ fire the lasers while at the same time the Gunner 
fires the Missiles or the Gatling. But he's not going to have access to the 
same skill modifiers. 
 
And if there's only one pilot available at all for the Genki, then they have 
to choose which arrangement of the multipower best represents their needs at 
the moment. 
 
Maybe there should be a further limitation, "Only to match Genki's stats". 
Applied to the Multipower pool cost as a whole so that the stats don't 
exceed that of the machine. But I don't know what it should be. -1/2? -1/4? 
 
What do you think? 
 
- -Logan 
 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- -- 
 "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable 
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective 
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex 
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite 
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who 
_smiles all the time_." 
   -Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett 
    _Good Omens_ 
*i.e., everybody. 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- -- 
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand/ 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #113 
***************************** 


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