Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 114

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 1:35 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #114 
 
 
champ-l-digest      Wednesday, December 30 1998      Volume 01 : Number 114 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Hero Creator: HTML Templates? 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI  (Elem.Controls) 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Hero Creator 1.4 patch? 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Skill Levels and DEX 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
    Re: Hero Creator 1.4 patch? 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: SAN ANGELO 
    Doomsday-Y 
    Re: Skill Levels and DEX 
    Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
    Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
    Mental Defense Question 
    Re: Mental Defense Question 
    RE: Mental Defense Question 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:53:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
Subject: Hero Creator: HTML Templates? 
 
Does anyone have any good HTML templates for Hero Creator?  In  
particular, I'd really like something like the template on Bob's 
Original Hero Stuff page. 
- --  
  Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell 
 [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] 
   "There are things that are so serious that you can only joke about them." 
                           -- Werner Karl Heisenberg 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 18:50:13 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> [rant elided]. The rules are still vague as to what the limit to Eidetic 
F> Memory _is_. 
 
HSR, "Eidetic Memory", page 48: 
 
  "What it does mean is that any subject that the character TAKES TIME TO 
  MEMORIZE will be remembered exactly, down to the smallest detail." 
 
Emphasis mine. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:11:25 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: GENKI  (Elem.Controls) 
 
>>I don't hate them, since I more or less invented them; I do wish  
>>they'd used them for what they were originally used for, which  
>>was power package deals, though. 
> 
>Let's say JJ has a body infused with Iron and Cobalt, and 
>therefore he's tougher, thicker, hits harder. His eyes are 
>resistant to blindness, and he can sense magnetics 
>and see further into the spectrum, all because his optics 
>are hardened and refined by the same fusing process. 
> 
>To me it sounds like UV vision and Flash defense ought 
>to be in his elemental control, as well as Power Def, 
>but these are all no-no for some reason. 
 
Mostly because they made a generic statement about frameworks, rather than 
spelling them out individually.  I've permitted special powers in ECs on 
several occasions, though I'd not normally do so in multipowers, and only in 
special cases in VPPs.  One the other hand, those are also pretty small 
powers and not getting the savings shouldn't normally be a big deal. 
 
> 
>When YOU'RE building a character, what questions do you 
>ask before you put a power in an EC? 
 
Depends, do you mean me as a GM or me as a player?  The answers are slightly 
different. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:20:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
> >Then you will, eventually, in a long enough campaign, run into one of those 
> >"I have an unlimited defense against this attack! I should be immune!" "No 
> >you aren't, because HERO doesn't have immunity to this." 
> One of the tenants of Hero Games is that you cannot have an absolute power,  
	Barring Adjustment Powers, Life Support is an Absolute Power... 
> >Basically, we've defined a simple, real-world possible, description for a 
> >power that equates to infinite defense against Flash, but there is no such 
> >thing in HERO. 
> Because there is always some way to work it.  YOu are assuming flash means 
> a bright light, here we have a special effects problem.  
> What if the flash is a psionic attack on the imaging centers of the  
>brain (typically bought with a limitation does not affect non organics)?  
	Preferabally with Based on Ego Combat Value and the afore 
mentioned "ineffective againt creatures with no nervous system" or witha 0 
point Limitation "Works against Mental Defense instead of Flash Defense."  
 
> What if the flash is a 
> covering over the target's eyes that is opaque (deploy all the eyes you 
> want, they are all covered) etc, etc. 
 
	This sounds like an NND Flash, in which Flash Defense would be 
ineffectual (and the Reasonabally Common Defense would depend on SFX; 
water to wash off paint, or taking off/destroying a burlap bag), or a 
specific form of Darkness. 
 
> There is no such thing as an absolute infinite flash defense because that 
> isnt how the game works, based on special effects. 
 
	Based on SFX, being behind a door, or a barrier, or covering your 
eyes, or being blind folded, or having retractable photo-receptors are all 
valid defenses that can work against the SFX: Flash Bulb, Flash versus 
Sight. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:07:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote: 
> >>If GM and player can't agree to use Eidetic Memory as written to cover 
> >>this, perhaps you can agree on some Advantage that will modify it to suit 
> >>your requirements.  What is it, exactly, that you find inadequate about 
> >>Eidetic Memory at the moment? 
	Is it HERO cannon to allow Talents to have Advantages and 
Limitations? 
	Eidetic Memory says it allows characters to "remember images that 
he has studied (...) with near photographic exactness.  This does not mean 
that the character remembers everything that happens perfectly; nor does 
it mean that the character does not forget facts over time." 
	Eidetic memory also states that: "any subject that the character 
takes time to memorize will be remebered exactly, down to the smallest 
detail." 
	 
	For the purposes of this power, a number of things can be 
remembered.  Sight, sound, tactile sensations- coupled with the various 
other "special" robotic senses, such as the ability to gauge distance, 
ambient temperature, and velocity, Eidetic Memory is not sufficent to 
cover the desired SFX. 
	Also, since Roboti-X has absolutely perfect (not "near 
photographic") exactness, can remember everything that happens perfectly, 
does not forget facts over time, and takes merely the sense itself, and 
does not take time to "study" or "time to memorize." 
 
<snip>  
> You're right, Eidetic Memory doesn't give you a perfect memory.  It does 
> give you near perfect recall, which is all the character needs.  The 
> player's memory isn't perfect, and neither is the GM's, so they're going to 
> have to cooperate in faking a "perfect" memory for the character anyway. 
> The character can remember everything he's heard, seen or read, for 
> example?  Fine.  Can the player and GM remember, perfectly, exactly what 
> the character has and has not heard, seen or read?   
>  
> Three months down the road, real time:   
> "No, wait, had he already left the room when that happened?" 
>   "Yeah, so he didn't see it, but he'd still have heard it." 
> "No, because my noisy attack power went off during that same phase." 
>   "You remember exactly what *phase* your power went off, from three months 
> ago?" 
> Damon 
 
	The purpose of this power set is for investigative purposes.  The 
character is a 24-7 recorder, with analysis systems and perception far 
beyond that of a normal humans. 
	If it's not relevant to the story, I would say there is no 
relevant information aside from that which is to be expected. 
	But if the character goes back in his memory, he can recognize a 
voice, or a distinctive feature, or even something as trivial as a certain 
cologne, from days, months, or even years passed. 
	In this way, the character can realize certain plot threads other 
characters would be oblivous to due to the lack of such a power. 
	I am tempted to include a number of special senses, such as 
"Detect Number", so the character could count the blades of grass he could 
perceive in a field... 
	Powers like this are not uncommon among characters such as "Data" 
from ST:TNG, or other friendly humanoid androids. 
	One way of keeping track of such powers would be with careful book 
keeping, or plots that would take such perceptions into account, so the 
person running the game could 'seed' such details. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:39:28 EST 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Hero Creator 1.4 patch? 
 
In a message dated 12/28/98 2:53:52 PM, lazarus@onramp.net writes: 
 
>My buddy has Hero Creator v1.4, and it is giving him some serious math 
>errors (it is calculating values incorrectly, not GPF-type errors). What 
>patches are available for this, and where can thay be found? 
 
Version 1.4 is the latest version. Please let us know about specific errors, 
with examples, that you've found; we're working on 1.5 right now. If you can 
email any errors (and attach a sample character that includes the errors) that 
would be very helpful. 
 
 Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:30:02 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
 
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> 
>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> If the character is a small sentient tank, and his extra "eyes" are 
>F> stored behind 8 cm laminate armor plate, how much FD do you need to 
>F> protect his eyes? 
> 
>What is the largest Flash you expect to see in the campaign?  Add about 25% 
>to that, and maybe make it hardened. 
 
 
I have run many campaigns. Almost always, eventually, I exceed the maximum 
expected limit somewhere. With some GMs, this guarantees a "Sorry, I know 
the SFX say you are immune, but you didn't buy enough Flash Defense." 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:24:49 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>When I have more than one campaign in the same universe, I figure my 
>"ultimate defenses" based on the high level campaign, personally.  But 
>that's just me... 
 
 
That would be nice, but what if you have a character who is a shapeshifting 
being who can make new eyes at will in a 150 pt. game, and you are also 
running a 1000 pt. game? The ability to be immune to Lumina, Goddess of 
Light's Flash attack could cost a tidy sum indeed for a low powered 
character, and wouldn't be worth the points, 99 times out of 100. 
 
>Anyhow.  If you would like to say "Boy, it would be nice if Hero had 
>the concept of total immunity," then I will agree with you.  You can't 
>do immune to damage of type X.  I'm hard-pressed to figure out a way 
>to deal with this, though. 
 
 
I do kind of like the idea of buying Normal Sight a second time to simulate 
a second set of eyes that you only bring out when the first set fails. It 
isn't too expensive, but works and makes sense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 20:26:48 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX 
 
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
 
WS> If you're just noticed that combat levels about the 3 point are not a 
WS> good deal generally, welcome to Champions. 
 
Wrong.  +1 CV via DEX costs you 9 points, six if you sell back your Speed 
or take No Figured Characteristics (which ammounts to the same thing).  For 
the same 6 points I can get a +2 OCV bonus to a tightly related group of 
attacks, or a +3 OCV bonus for a single power or maneuver. 
 
Given the same points spent, I can always get a better OCV through 2-point 
and 3-point skill levels than you can get out of raw DEX. 
 
Depth vs. breadth.  That is the tradeoff.  Neither is inherently better or 
worse than the other. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:18:13 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
At 07:07 PM 12/29/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote: 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote: 
>> >>If GM and player can't agree to use Eidetic Memory as written to cover 
>> >>this, perhaps you can agree on some Advantage that will modify it to suit 
>> >>your requirements.  What is it, exactly, that you find inadequate about 
>> >>Eidetic Memory at the moment? 
 
>	Is it HERO cannon to allow Talents to have Advantages and 
>Limitations? 
 
p46: "Talents must usually be bought as they are; a character cannot 
purchase a Talent with any Power Limitiation [or, by extension, any Power 
Advantage - MDG], except with special GM permission." 
 
The Hero canon says it's okay if your GM approves it.  Not the usual thing, 
but you don't have to rewrite the book to permit it.  
 
 
>	Eidetic Memory says it allows characters to "remember images that 
>he has studied (...) with near photographic exactness.  This does not mean 
>that the character remembers everything that happens perfectly; nor does 
>it mean that the character does not forget facts over time." 
>	Eidetic memory also states that: "any subject that the character 
>takes time to memorize will be remebered exactly, down to the smallest 
>detail." 
>	For the purposes of this power, a number of things can be 
>remembered.  Sight, sound, tactile sensations- coupled with the various 
>other "special" robotic senses, such as the ability to gauge distance, 
>ambient temperature, and velocity, Eidetic Memory is not sufficent to 
>cover the desired SFX. 
 
The word "eidetic" does relate to images, but I think most people broaden 
the scope of the Talent to include sounds, smells, etc.  If you don't agree 
with that, I suppose one way to handle it would be to buy the equivalent of 
Eidetic Memory separately for each sense group (with a cost break if you're 
covering All Sense Groups). 
 
The abilities of gauging speed, distance, temperature, etc. are not 
"senses", they are merely ways of accurately measuring data gathered by the 
ordinary senses.  How do you gauge distance?  By using Sight, or Radar 
Sense, and the Lightning Calculator Talent.  How do you gauge Temperature? 
Probably via the normal tactile sense -- skin receptors or whatever.  The 
Exact Measurement(Temperature) Talent gives you the ability to get an 
accurate meansurement of something your ordinary Tactile sense picks up. 
Yeah, you may have to invent Exact Measurement, but you don't have to 
invent Detect Temperature; it's built into the human body (even, I assume, 
an artificial human body). 
 
>	Also, since Roboti-X has absolutely perfect (not "near 
>photographic") exactness, can remember everything that happens perfectly, 
>does not forget facts over time, and takes merely the sense itself, and 
>does not take time to "study" or "time to memorize." 
 
Okay, fine: 
 
TOTAL SENSORY RECALL (STOP SIGN) 
    The character is able to remember anything he has ever seen (or heard, 
smelled, touched, tasted or experienced as any form of sensory input -- 
character may choose one sense, one Sense Group or All Sense Groups at 
varying costs).  Recording of the sensory data is both continuous and 
automatic, so long as the character is conscious. 
Base cost is 20 points for one Sense, +5 for each additional Sense, or +10 
for each additional Sense Group.   
    In situations where a PER Roll would normally be required, the 
character must make such a roll in order to take notice of things in the 
present.  If the character fails to notice something by failing the PER 
Roll, however, and has the vague sense that he "missed something" earlier, 
he can go back and review his experience later and roll again; if the 
character knows what bit of information he wants to go back and retrieve, 
success is automatic and no roll is needed. 
    The character can effectively re-live a situation by simultaneously 
recalling all sensory memories from a given point in time.  Depending on 
the SFX of the ability, this may put the character into a VR-like state 
where he is only aware of the memories, and his current situation and 
surroundings are blocked out; the effects of this are much like 
Concentration (0 DCV).  The character may be aware of his detailed memories 
and his current surroundings simultaneously without penalty, for +5 points 
(memories of one sense), +10 points (memories of all senses in one Sense 
Group) or +15 points (memories of all senses in all Sense Groups). 
 
Total Sensory Recall: Normal Sight(20), Hearing(+10), Smell/Taste(+10), 
Tactile(+5), may use all recalled memories simultaneously without 
penalty(+15) = 60 points 
  
>	The purpose of this power set is for investigative purposes.  The 
>character is a 24-7 recorder, with analysis systems and perception far 
>beyond that of a normal humans. 
>	But if the character goes back in his memory, he can recognize a 
>voice, or a distinctive feature, or even something as trivial as a certain 
>cologne, from days, months, or even years passed. 
>	In this way, the character can realize certain plot threads other 
>characters would be oblivous to due to the lack of such a power. 
>	I am tempted to include a number of special senses, such as 
>"Detect Number", so the character could count the blades of grass he could 
>perceive in a field... 
 
Lightning Calculator, and a good enough PER Roll, should allow this.  No 
need to invent a Talent or build a Sense in this case. 
 
>	Powers like this are not uncommon among characters such as "Data" 
>from ST:TNG, or other friendly humanoid androids. 
>	One way of keeping track of such powers would be with careful book 
>keeping, or plots that would take such perceptions into account, so the 
>person running the game could 'seed' such details. 
 
I'm just afraid the bookkeeping will become the focus of the game.  Is it 
*really* worth inventing a new Talent/Power/whatever -- one that may cost 
many times more than Eidetic Memory, if you use anything like what I wrote 
up above -- in order to have a mechanical construct to model something that 
is properly little more than a plot device?  Especially if the ability 
you're trying so hard to detail is one that the player and GM cannot, over 
time, accurately simulate themselves, so that all this extensive 
bookkeeping is required?  You *can't* reliably anticipate what things may 
or may not be relevant to future plot developments.  That's the reason you 
want the character to have the ability, but it also means you as player 
won't know what to write down. 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:42:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Logan Darklighter wrote: 
 
> I just had an interesting thought. What if I changed the "Reflex booster" EC 
> into a multipower? That might produce interesting effects, because the 
> multipower is effectively bing used simutaneusly by two pilots, one could 
> get the extra SPD and/or DEX for actually piloting the thing, and the gunner 
> could use the DEX and Levels in targeting for the weapons. 
 
Well, the pool would have to be big enough to have both slots run at once, 
*or* have all multi slots as opposed to ultras. 
  
> Hmmm. Let me look at this. Okay, here's the original EC: 
>  
> >Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1) 
> >Elemental Control (3) 
> >  a - +5 DEX, doesn't add to figured (-1/2) (3) 
> >  b - +1 SPD, doesn't add to figured (-1/2) (3) 
> >  c - +3 Lvls w/Weapons (4) 
>  
> Here's a multipower version: 
>  
> Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1) 
> Multipower (30 Pt Pool) (Real Cost 15) 
> u - +5 DEX, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
> u - +1 SPD, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
> u - +3 Levels with Weapons (1) 
 
Only one problem.  Characteristics in Multipowers are already "Not vs 
Figured".  Otehr than that... it will work. 
  
> Maybe there should be a further limitation, "Only to match Genki's stats". 
> Applied to the Multipower pool cost as a whole so that the stats don't 
> exceed that of the machine. But I don't know what it should be. -1/2? -1/4? 
>  
> What do you think? 
 
That might work.  Bob? 
 
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com  
http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:16:10 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@home.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Creator 1.4 patch? 
 
HeroGames@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Version 1.4 is the latest version. Please let us know about specific errors, 
> with examples, that you've found; we're working on 1.5 right now. If you can 
> email any errors (and attach a sample character that includes the errors) that 
> would be very helpful. 
 
okay, here's an easy one to duplicate. 
 
1. Create a new character 
2. buy your dex up to 14, and your speed up to 3 
3. buy your dex up to 27 with a limitation on it (like only in hero ID) 
4. Now try to buy speed (with the OHID limitation) to get up to 6.  It 
wont let you. 
 
 
Todd 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 29 Dec 1998 21:41:50 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> I have run many campaigns. Almost always, eventually, I exceed the maximum 
F> expected limit somewhere. With some GMs, this guarantees a "Sorry, I know 
F> the SFX say you are immune, but you didn't buy enough Flash Defense." 
 
Now you are doing it on purpose. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:13 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
<snip> 
> 
>I'm just afraid the bookkeeping will become the focus of the game.  Is it 
>*really* worth inventing a new Talent/Power/whatever -- one that may cost 
>many times more than Eidetic Memory, if you use anything like what I wrote 
>up above -- in order to have a mechanical construct to model something that 
>is properly little more than a plot device?  Especially if the ability 
>you're trying so hard to detail is one that the player and GM cannot, over 
>time, accurately simulate themselves, so that all this extensive 
>bookkeeping is required?  You *can't* reliably anticipate what things may 
>or may not be relevant to future plot developments.  That's the reason you 
>want the character to have the ability, but it also means you as player 
>won't know what to write down. 
 
 
True, but like many things, the GM can (and undoubtedly will) "wing it". 
 
I would say that, yes, it is worth it (though I might reduce the cost), 
because there are so very many characters/automations who/which should have 
this ability. I have wanted to have it for a scenario many times, and 
frequently wished I had it for base or vehicle computers of incredible 
power. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:36:49 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> [rant elided]. The rules are still vague as to what the limit to Eidetic 
>F> Memory _is_. 
> 
>HSR, "Eidetic Memory", page 48: 
> 
>  "What it does mean is that any subject that the character TAKES TIME TO 
>  MEMORIZE will be remembered exactly, down to the smallest detail." 
> 
>Emphasis mine. 
 
 
You will note that this is apparently _not_ clear and detailed enough for 
many people, since we have so many disagreements as to what EM does/does not 
do. For example, people who have indicated that characters with EM will 
remember _everything_ that happens, at any time. It also leaves completely 
vague as to how long you will remember it for, and how much of the knowledge 
of mankind you can have memorized at one time. 
 
For example, would a librarian with EM and Speed Reading be able to memorize 
a major metropolitan library in toto? If he did this at 30, would he 
remember it all, barring senility, at 90? 
 
The number of different takes on EM that I have seen here indicate that 
there is plenty of room for disagreement between players and GMs as to what 
EM does or does not do. That line you quoted, though illuminating, does not 
cover it in full. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:57:07 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
At 06:49 PM 12/29/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
><snip> 
>> 
>>I'm just afraid the bookkeeping will become the focus of the game.  Is it 
>>*really* worth inventing a new Talent/Power/whatever -- one that may cost 
>>many times more than Eidetic Memory, if you use anything like what I wrote 
 
>>up above -- in order to have a mechanical construct to model something that 
>>is properly little more than a plot device?   
> 
>I would say that, yes, it is worth it (though I might reduce the cost), 
>because there are so very many characters/automations who/which should have 
>this ability. I have wanted to have it for a scenario many times, and 
>frequently wished I had it for base or vehicle computers of incredible 
>power. 
 
Okay.  Let us know what you decide on as a final form for this. 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:55:25 EST 
From: Pat10355@aol.com 
Subject: Re: SAN ANGELO 
 
In a message dated 98-12-27 01:07:12 EST, tdj723@webtv.net writes: 
 
<<  I would've liked to see a few more in the core book, to make being able 
 to use the sourcebook 'out of the box' easier.  I will say, though, that 
 I did find it clever that each of the metahuman characters you did 
 include had a different psychological 'niche' to give the reader 
 examples of the various role playing possibilities (Here is the standard 
 4-color bad guy; here is the grey area baddie; etc.).  Very in keeping 
 with the tone of SA as an ASTRO CITY/MARVELS/KINGDOM COME book. >> 
 
The inclusion of only a few superhuman heroes and villains was primarily a 
space consideration. And believe me, there was a lot of discussion about just 
how many needed to be in the core book. 
 
My rationale is that, while there will be future enemies books, SA:CoH was my 
only chance to present details on things like the commercial scene or the NPC 
heroes of the city. I felt it was more important to devote space to those 
things than to elements that could, and would, get their own books later. 
 
Your point is well-taken, though, and I'll admit to some second thoughts about 
whether I should have included some more villains or an overview of a 
villainous agency similar -- at least in campaign roles if not in nature -- to 
the CU's Viper, Marvel's Hydra or DC's Hive. 
 
I did take some pride in the presentation of villains that filled specific 
campaign niches, as opposed to just a bunch of villains with cool powers. I'm 
glad to see readers found that useful. :) 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:19:16 -0800 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Doomsday-Y 
 
Heya, 
 
I seem to recall, and I hope I'm right, that the author of the Superbabes 
module Doomsday-Y is on this list. That true? If so, I've got a couple 
questions if you have some time. :) 
 
Thanks, 
- -Nic 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:41:23 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
> 
>WS> If you're just noticed that combat levels about the 3 point are not a 
>WS> good deal generally, welcome to Champions. 
> 
>Wrong.  +1 CV via DEX costs you 9 points, six if you sell back your Speed 
>or take No Figured Characteristics (which ammounts to the same thing).  For 
>the same 6 points I can get a +2 OCV bonus to a tightly related group of 
>attacks, or a +3 OCV bonus for a single power or maneuver. 
> 
>Given the same points spent, I can always get a better OCV through 2-point 
>and 3-point skill levels than you can get out of raw DEX. 
> 
>Depth vs. breadth.  That is the tradeoff.  Neither is inherently better or 
>worse than the other. 
 
First off, the above was supposed to read 'above the three point level'. 
Second, even in that case, you still have the issue that you've gotten one 
full OCV and DCV for the price that would otherwise get you two far narrower 
levels...and the former may also give you a skill roll/DEX roll bonus, and 
will certainly give you an initiative bonus. 
 
The only levels which really are a good deal in a superhero game are the two 
pointers...and the only reason the others are sometimes a good deal 
elsewhere is because of the ability to turn them into damage and the 
characteristic caps. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:55:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements 
 
At 07:07 PM 12/29/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote: 
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote: 
>> >>If GM and player can't agree to use Eidetic Memory as written to cover 
>> >>this, perhaps you can agree on some Advantage that will modify it to suit 
>> >>your requirements.  What is it, exactly, that you find inadequate about 
>> >>Eidetic Memory at the moment? 
> Is it HERO cannon to allow Talents to have Advantages and 
>Limitations? 
 
   Absolutely -- if you try it, Steve Peterson will come over and shoot you 
with a cannon.  ;-] 
   Seriously, the HSR does state (in the introductory section under 
Talents, last paragraph) that Limitations may be taken on Talents only with 
special permission from the GM.  Thus, it is canon, though restricted. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 06:21:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
 
At 02:01 AM 12/30/98 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
>cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil) 
>> Here's a multipower version: 
>>  
>> Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1) 
>> Multipower (30 Pt Pool) (Real Cost 15) 
>> u - +5 DEX, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
>> u - +1 SPD, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1) 
>> u - +3 Levels with Weapons (1) 
> 
>Only one problem.  Characteristics in Multipowers are already "Not vs 
>Figured".  Otehr than that... it will work. 
 
   One other problem that I've already mentioned is that this system will 
only afect *either* the pilot *or* the gunner, not both simultaneously.  Of 
course, a second can be purchased for +5 real points. 
 
>> Maybe there should be a further limitation, "Only to match Genki's stats". 
>> Applied to the Multipower pool cost as a whole so that the stats don't 
>> exceed that of the machine. But I don't know what it should be. -1/2? -1/4? 
>>  
>> What do you think? 
> 
>That might work.  Bob? 
 
   Just offhand, I'd call it -1/2 in a superheroic campaign, or -1/4 in a 
heroic campaign (where Characteristics are generally lower and so the 
Limitation is less likely to come into play). 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:07:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Mental Defense Question 
 
   Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on. 
   In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named 
Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to 
mental powers.  He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists, 
so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense. 
   Now, I'm mostly hand-waving the Psychic Surgery (though Headmaster does 
have the appropriate Transform BOECV); what I'm wondering about is the 
Mental Defense itself, since Headmaster wants to be able to get past it 
himself.  Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental Defense, not 
vs Headmaster.  The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as 
Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on all 
his subjects now and then. 
   If it were just for my own campaign, I'd probably just hand-wave it, or 
at any rate not worry about it too much, but this one is for publication so 
it should be built in a way that will be satisfactory to as much of the 
Hero community at large as possible.  For that reason, I'm asking the 
advice of the list. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:56:29 +0000 
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com> 
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on. 
>    In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named 
> Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to 
> mental powers.  He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists, 
> so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense. 
>    Now, I'm mostly hand-waving the Psychic Surgery (though Headmaster does 
> have the appropriate Transform BOECV); what I'm wondering about is the 
> Mental Defense itself, since Headmaster wants to be able to get past it 
> himself.  Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental Defense, not 
> vs Headmaster.  The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as 
> Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on all 
> his subjects now and then. 
>    If it were just for my own campaign, I'd probably just hand-wave it, or 
> at any rate not worry about it too much, but this one is for publication so 
> it should be built in a way that will be satisfactory to as much of the 
> Hero community at large as possible.  For that reason, I'm asking the 
> advice of the list. 
> --- 
 
I can't see why that sort of limiation would not be valid.  If he has 
the necessary skills to do the Psychic Surgery, why wouldn't he be able 
to build in a back door for him to use.  
 
This also opens up other possibilities if other mentalists could "forge" 
Headmaster's mental signature and gain access to Goth... 
 
Chris Hartjes 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:24:36 -0500 
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
Subject: RE: Mental Defense Question 
 
Good question, Bob. 
 
I guess it all depends on how you look at it. From HeadMaster's point of 
view, his ability to bypass Goth's MD is an advantage. It's almost like 
summoning a creature with the psych lim "Blind Loyalty to the Summoner". 
It's just not a disad for the boss. Personaly, I don't like using Transforms 
to give characters abilities. The rules don't deal with how many points you 
can squeeze into a character in this way. 
 
If Goth agreed to the surgery and paid out the points for it, then sure, put 
the -1/4 disad on it as a one-off. I had a flesh mage in a FH campaign with 
a Transform to change any living thing into any other living thing. Mainly, 
it was a justification for the PC's to spend points they wouldn't normaly 
get to spend. For example, by working on one of the PC's legs for a couple 
of days, the GM allowed him to buy a great big superleap. 
 
However, if this is the kind of thing that HeadMaster might do all the time, 
I'd give HeadMaster an Aid to MD with the advantage 'personal immunity' 
where the immunity relates to him instead of Goth. Likewise you could have 
HeadMaster buy a chunk of his own MD with 'Usable by One Other' and 'Ranged' 
or something similar. This way, HeadMaster can just shut it down if he needs 
to. 
 
Another thing to consider is how HeadMaster bypasses the MD. I don't know if 
this kind of thing is covered in TUM but the mechanics of a back door 
through the MD is an interesting bit of flavour. Could another mentalist 
discover this hole? I think if there's a way for another teep to sneak past 
the defenses, then it's probably worth the -1/4. Certainly it would be 
difficult but not impossible. Maybe a Find Weakness roll using Mental Sense 
or anyone who had studied mentalism with Headmaster would expose the 
limitation. 
 
That's it. 
BRI 
 
 
 
  
]    Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on. 
]    In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named 
] Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is  
] Vulnerable to 
] mental powers.  He wants to protect her from attacks by rival  
] mentalists, 
] so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense. 
]    Now, I'm mostly hand-waving the Psychic Surgery (though  
] Headmaster does 
] have the appropriate Transform BOECV); what I'm wondering about is the 
] Mental Defense itself, since Headmaster wants to be able to  
] get past it 
] himself.  Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental  
] Defense, not 
] vs Headmaster.  The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as 
] Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic  
] Surgry" on all 
] his subjects now and then. 
]    If it were just for my own campaign, I'd probably just  
] hand-wave it, or 
] at any rate not worry about it too much, but this one is for  
] publication so 
] it should be built in a way that will be satisfactory to as  
] much of the 
] Hero community at large as possible.  For that reason, I'm asking the 
] advice of the list. 
] --- 
] Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
]    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
] Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
]    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
]  
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #114 
***************************** 


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