From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 11:51 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #149 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Tuesday, January 19 1999        Volume 01 : Number 149 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Gambit Write-up... 
    Re: Gambit Write-up... 
    Re: Loser Heroes (fwd) 
    Re: superleap attacks 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: DC: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Gambit Write-up... 
    Re: Gambit Write-up... 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes (fwd) 
    Re: Point balance vs. Power balance 
    Re: superleap attacks 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Egotistical blathering 
    Re: Camp Councilor 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers 
    Re: Point balance vs. Power balance 
    RE: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: DC: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: superleap attacks 
    Re: superleap attacks 
    Kid Dynamo (was Re: Loser Heroes) 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Reply to does not go to champ-l 
    Re: superleap attacks 
    RE: Character: Bilbo Baggins 
    Re: Loser Heroes 
    Killing and Expectations 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:54:28 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Gambit Write-up... 
 
- ---Jorge Cadavid <cadavid@gate.net> wrote: 
> 
> Hey Guys, new to the list.  Started playing Champions a few months 
ago. 
> Wanted to get some tips on making a character.  The theme for the 
> champions game I'm in is for mutants.  Now from what I hear people 
> usually play your basic bricks (hulk, jugger), or the EP (torch, 
> iceman), or martial artists (wolverine).  I wanted to make something 
> slightly different and I went with guy no one has ever mentioned of 
> playing before....Gambit! 
 
> I thought to make him a martial artist/EP/thief/slight mentalist.  The 
> campaign is only 250 pts.  Someone mentioned to me about getting the 
> heromaker since I'm new.  I was wondering if anyone might have a 
copy of 
> it online somewhere or on there webpage, where I might go to download 
> it.  Or if anyone might know where I can get it.  Also if anyone hear 
> might have a write-up for Gambit. 
 
Heromaker is no longer available, but it's replacement, Creation 
Workshop (or Hero Creator if all you want is the ability to make Hero 
characters) is available from Hero Games or any game store that sells 
Hero Games products. 
 
Creation Workshop costs $30 and the Hero template for it costs $15 
Hero Creator costs $25 
 
Check out Hero Game web site (http://www.herogames.com) for more 
information and some scren shots). 
 
As for the write-up of Gambit, try 
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html or 
http://www.darkrealms.com/~antcrusher/gnborh.html 
 
If it's on either site though it will probably be built on more than 
250 points, but it would give you a starting point at least. 
 
- -=>John Desmarais 
http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
 
p.s. 
 
It's never a good idea to request to pirate software on a list 
frequented by the folks who own the product (ie. Hero Games). 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:25:02 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Gambit Write-up... 
 
>Someone mentioned to me about getting theheromaker since I'm new.   
It's great, but a few quirks exist. 
 
> I was wondering if anyone might have a copy of it online  
> somewhere or on there webpage,  
That would be quasi-legal. 
 
> where I might go to download it.   
If only, If only, If only HERO would... 
 
> Or if anyone might know where I can get it. 
Champions Deluxe Hardcover w/Disk, $55, available nowhere  :) 
== 
Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:55:53 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes (fwd) 
 
>Some comments from a friend of mine on the Legion of Substitue Heroes: 
> 
>> Of course, speaking of the Legion, there's always the Legion of Substitute 
>> Heroes - Polar Boy, Color Kid, Chlorophyll Kid, Stone Boy and others ? 
> 
>Ah, now I know why I got this forwarded to me.  :-) 
> 
>The original Subbies were Polar Boy (the leader, could project cold; later 
>joined the Legion and eventually became their last leader before Cham 
>reformed the team years later), Fire Lad (could breathe fire; in later, 
>"goofier" issues in the 80's, he seemed to exhibit *less* control of his 
>power), Color Kid (could change things different colors), Stone Boy (could 
>turn himself to stone; power varied according to the writer as to whether 
>or not he became a "walking statue" or just an immobile paperweight), 
 
In his original appearances it was the latter, though he was pretty good at 
turning it on and off fairly quickly so as to actually get some use out of it. 
 
>Night Girl (had super-strength, probably at least on par with Timber Wolf, 
>but only at night or in the dark...Lydia hung around with the Legion some, 
>partly because she was sleeping with Cosmic Boy, and partly because Shadow 
>Lass was just a convenient person to be around when you have that 
>power...the absolute skimpiest of the Mike Grell costumes except possibly 
>for Laurel Kent), and Chlorophyll Kid (could make plants grow super-strong 
>and super-fast). 
 
That's super-large and super-fast.  And actually, if I remember that period 
Projectra's costume was in the running too.  Of course Invulnerable Girl's 
made Vampirella's looks bulky, so it's moot. 
 
 
> 
>After Polar Boy and (I think) Night Girl left in the late 80's, the Subs 
>picked up some rejected applicantants from waaaaay back when Wildfire 
>joined in Superboy #199.  That was Infectious Lass (could immediately 
>render her target ill, but her control was less-than-ideal) and Porcupine 
>Pete (body covered with quills, which he could project...aimlessly).  That 
>was also the Keith Giffen Subs, played purely for laughs -- teamed with 
>Superman to battle Ambush Bug, for example. 
 
[Makes ritual spitting noise when Giffen the Destroyer is mentioned.] 
 
> 
>The Subs used to meet in a cave (possibly the old Batcave, rediscovered in 
>the 30th Century, but it was never spelled out).  When the Legion moved 
>into their Mike Grell-designed Citadel, the Subs got their old 
>"pranged yellow rocket-ship" HQ, which they kept for a looooong while. 
> 
>I think Evolvo Lad was one of the Heroes of Lallor, a sort of "indy" 
>Legion on another planet.  Renamed Elvo at some point for an issue or 
>three, probably until they realized what kind of cracks could be made 
>outta that ("Elvo has left the building!") 
 
Hmmm.  I think you're confusing the Lallorian heroes and the team that 
inclded Quantum Queen, Dartalg and company, who's name suddenly escapes me. 
Elvo was the fellow who carried the electrified sword before they re-wrote 
him late in the day.  Evolvo Lad is back in the current continuity. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:28:10 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: superleap attacks 
 
>Well... if he _dives_ off, he has to make an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll 
>to end up with his legs pointing the right direction in order to USE his 
>Superleap.  If, on the other hand, he leaps off (no angular momentum, 
>feet down), no problem. 
 
 
OK, Donald, I might agree if one assumption is made: the ability to absorb 
the landing impact is solely in the legs and not in the overall resistance 
of the character's physiology.  Who's to say that a Superleaping character 
can't come into a combat situation and land on his hands, lets say...?  When 
using Superleap normally, I haven't ever had to roll and Acrobatics roll to 
land and avoid taking damage, although for really high Superleaps this may 
not be such a bad idea. 
 
PS I also remember an old Dragon article that had some poorly thought out 
Champions powers and skills including the skill: "Bouncing".  For 5 points 
or so, the character can use it to simulate going to and fro among the 
flagpoles, canopies and streetlights as a mode of movement in conjunction 
with Superleap.  I can't remember which Dragon it was but it had to be out 
during the early-to-mid 80's.  (That's when Acrobatics cost 10 pts.  Man, 
I'm old).  Anybody else remember that article "More Champions Powers" or 
something... 
 
Miller 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:30:42 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
There was a guy who scrapped SpiderMan a couple of times called the Leaper. 
 
 
That would be Batroc, he showed up in a few Captain America's too.  His 
forte was Savate, actually.  Wasn't he one of the Frightful Four or the 
Sinister Six or something like that? 
 
Miller 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:31:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Kevin Mulder <kevinmu@ccpl.carr.lib.md.us> 
Subject: Re: DC: Loser Heroes 
 
     Heya! On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Chad Riley wrote: 
 
> Hey All, I was wondering if you could think of some of Marvel's less 
> respected heroes. I'm doing something with them I already have a core of 
> the Lightning Rods, Frogman, the Osprey (the guy from the old Marvel 
> Superheroes Game), and Captain Ultra. I'm looking for guys and girls who 
> have never really measured up to the big leagues, characters who were 
> made that way on purpose, not just ones you can't stand. However aside 
> from the Lightning Rods (formerly Great Lakes Avengers), I don't want 
> anyone who already is in a team (like Speedball). Any ideas? The heroes 
> introduced on assistant editor's month would be good. I need 
> predominately Marvel characters but if they're lame enough I will take 
> DC Characters. 
 
     Well, since Vinnie already beat me to Razorback, lemme toss this 
guy out at you: Texas Twister! A Texas cowpoke caught in the blast when 
a tornado hit the nuclear power plant conveniently located next to the 
ranch he was working at, he gained the power to create contolled tornadoes 
that he can use as weapons or a means of flight, ala Whirlwind. Originally 
seeking a career as a villain(he was another Frightful Four aplicant along 
with The Osprey), he reformed and became part of SHIELD's short-lived 
super-agent program. He eventually ended up with the *group* of losers 
called the Rangers, a sort of Western-motif version of the Lightning Rods. 
If he's been seen since the Rangers broke up in a long-ago issue of WEST 
COAST AVENGERS, I haven't heard Happy Mort-ing(to borrow a phrase from 
WIZARD Magazine)! Later!   
  
                                             Kevin J. Mulder 
            
 kevinmu@ccpl.carr.lib.md.us 
 Slickpuppy on FurryMUCK 
 "Don't take life so serious, son. 
  It ain't nohow permanent." 
                     - Walt Kelly  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:38:05 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Gambit Write-up... 
 
>It's never a good idea to request to pirate software on a list 
>frequented by the folks who own the product (ie. Hero Games). 
 
I doubt Jorge expected pirate software.  No doubt he thought 
it was a shareware utility.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"But where is the ambiguity? Over there, in a box." 
        John Cleese, Monty Python's Flying Circus 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:12:57 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Gambit Write-up... 
 
> It's never a good idea to request to pirate software  
You seem to be assuming people know when and what that is. 
 
== 
Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:35:38 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>   Then there's Darkwing Duck.  A couple of his associates would fit into 
>this category too: Comet Guy, Gizmoduck, and another fellow who was 
>transformed from a duck into a dinosaur (I forget his name offhand). 
 
 
The dinosaur was Stegmut [sic, but that's how it's pronounced], one of the 
Justice Ducks (Neptunia: "But we're not ducks!" Stegmut: "I used to be."). 
 
And you left out my favorite, aside from DD: Morgana Macaber, our hero's 
girlfriend and Mistress of Magic, whose terrible powers (and aim) would 
often transform DD into various oddities. 
 
DD had a short run from DC (heh), so it's not totally off the thread. 
 
JAJ, GP, DD Fan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:07:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes (fwd) 
 
> > 
> >I think Evolvo Lad was one of the Heroes of Lallor, a sort of "indy" 
> >Legion on another planet.  Renamed Elvo at some point for an issue or 
> >three, probably until they realized what kind of cracks could be made 
> >outta that ("Elvo has left the building!") 
>  
> Hmmm.  I think you're confusing the Lallorian heroes and the team that 
> inclded Quantum Queen, Dartalg and company, who's name suddenly escapes me. 
> Elvo was the fellow who carried the electrified sword before they re-wrote 
> him late in the day.  Evolvo Lad is back in the current continuity. 
>  
>  
 
The Wanderers !  I got the mini-series although I'd never seen them in  
a story before.  The mini-series started with an interesting premise, 
the characters were all clones of the original Wanderers (in some cases 
with upgrades, i.e. 'cause their original powers were too stupid) 
and were investigating what happened to the originals.... 
 
Curt Hicks  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:52:44 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Point balance vs. Power balance 
 
> > Who is on this list who doesn't care about point  
> > balancing the heroes? 
 
A small minority opinion here: 
I've run a few campaigns and had no guidelines 
whatsoever. Characters ranged from 250-515 points, 
right beside each other. Yes. Some players had more 
powerful characters than others. 
Disads were legion. Damage class limits? Nope. 
Some characters even had "Mutation Bonuses" or 
"Experience Bonus" tallies to make them 'balance' 
 
The Justice League of Alabama campaign was described 
from the start as a hearkening back to the days when 
giants like Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter were  
on the same team as Batman and Green Arrow.  
 
Character concepts, not numbers, were it's tenets. 
 
== 
Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:07:55 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: superleap attacks 
 
>It's not "feet or not feet"; it's controlled landing vs uncontrolled 
>landing.  The latter does you damage that Superleap doesn't subtract from, 
>much in the same way as Bracing vs Knockback only works in the direction 
>you brace toward. 
 
 
All I'm saying is that there has to be some assumptions when talking about 
given powers, like the assumption that your hands don't burn off when you 
buy a fire based EB without any consideration to fire resistance (yes, it is 
actually done).  I'm a HUGE fan of realism, so I'm really agreeing with you 
here, but when you have to go as far as to say "I'm Superleaping downtown to 
the harbor area -- AND I LAND CORRECTLY!"  , or "I'm going to jump off the 
building before the bomb explodes -- AND I LAND CORRECTLY!", that may be a 
bit too much wouldn't you agree?  Just like "I aim the EB away from my 
face!" (I know, I've gone too far).  Like I said, certain things should be 
assumed to save a night from total frustrating anal pratter. 
 
>If you want it the other way, "overall resistance of the character's 
>physiology" is called PD. 
> 
This goes beyond PD, refer to the original post if you still have it.  You 
don't have to be a Brick to have Superleap (character concept aside). 
 
> 
>>PS I also remember an old Dragon article that had some poorly thought out 
>>Champions powers and skills including the skill: "Bouncing". 
> 
>Steve Maurer's article, after it was rejected by Adventurer's Club? 
>"Champions Minus", I believe it was called... 
> 
Was that it?  When did it come out?  I'm gonna lose sleep if I don't find 
it.  It's here somewhere...  It had a characture of Steve P. in "Generic 
Hero"s costume right (a big hex on the chest, not Herculan)? 
 
 
Miller 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:32:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>From: dwcheung@mindspring.com (David W Cheung) 
 
  
>>CHANCE and GOMI from Fallen Angels: 
>> Chance enhances mutant powers, Gomi had 
>> artificial TK powers which he could use to 
>> fire force blasts... he was friends/owner of 
>> two cybernetic lobsters! (what could be sillier 
>> than cyber-crustaceans?!)  
 
Geez, I forgot about Gomi!!! 
 
Wasn't there also a tacky alien type called Ariel who came from the 
dimension (I kid you not) Coconut Grove, and could teleport people and 
things, but only using doors as a focus? 
 
And don't forget Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy! 
 
>>HAYWIRE, from Squadrom Supreme: shot 
>> thin metal wire from his hands... came 
>>from nowhere.  
 
I dunno--Haywire never struck me as that awful--Pinball, however, who 
could expand his body into a big ball and try to run people over (he 
appeared in a SS crossover with CAPTAIN AMERICA) and Remanat, a guy who 
threw lethal carpet samples--they were both pretty awful. 
 
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without 
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?" 
- --Harry Shearer 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP 
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:31:36 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Egotistical blathering 
 
Sorry this is out of reference, but I just have to say it: 
 
"It's GOOD to be the GM!" 
 
With apologies to Mel Brooks. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:35:16 -0800 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Camp Councilor 
 
Chris Hartjes wrote: 
 
> I played in a campaign once where there were no limits on the powers, 
> and it simply degenerated into a contest between us and the GM, where 
> his NPCS were always perfectly tailored to beat the snot out of the 
> group. 
 
   I played in a campaign with no limits on powers, and had a very 
different experience.  The GM said to figure out your character's 
concept, and build it.  DON'T worry about point levels, DON'T worry 
about balancing disads with CHAR points, just have a GOOD conception.  
Then, the campaign went along having little to do with individual 'us 
vs. them' dynamics at all.  It was simply a story with main characters 
who happened to have various abilities which may or may not come into 
play at different times.  Certainly it's not for everybody (or every 
GM), but it was one of the most enjoyable gaming proposals I ever 
played, even though the game died nearly as soon as it began (only a few 
sessions before the group scattered geographically). 
   In fact, the character I created for the game has become one of my 
all-time favorite concepts I've come up with.  Since that game, I've 
taken the same basic character concept and adapted it to three different 
games-worlds I've played in. 
  
> I prefer not to have such an adversarial relationship with my players. 
> The limits are in place to start but they can certainly go above them 
> with experience. 
 
   It largely depends on the tone of the campaign.  If it's 
mechanics-heavy (lots of 'what you can DO'), it'll get pretty 
adversarial.  If the game concentrates mostly on 'who you ARE', there's 
much less worry about points and power. 
   Also how fairly the GM applies the Disadvantage and Limitation 
levels.  A +1 limitation should LIMIT significantly.  a 25 point disad 
should prove significantly disadvantageous.  There should be general 
equity between characters if all these rules are followed properly (and 
'base points' are equal). 
 
- --  
- -Reverend Spith 
 
   "Message to myself; Do the dumb things I gotta do.  Touch the puppet 
head." 
      -TMBG 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:23:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>From: exucurt@exu.ericsson.se (Curt Hicks) 
 
>>Actually, Mannikin could summon a brutish 
>> caveman type, an evolved future man, and 
>> an amoeba thing that could dissolve stuff. 
>> These all appeared at the same time and 
>> Manikin was also present.  
 
Okay--I admit that Mantlo's run on ALPHA FLIGHT made my head hurt.  A 
lot.  So I gave up on the book after a while and only returned when 
James Hundell took over (an interesting run marred by the awful art of 
Jim Calimee...) 
 
>>Now, **Evolvo Lad** from the Legion of 
>> Superheroes comic could slide up and down 
>> the evolutionary scale. Evolvo Lad was not a 
>> member of the Legion, but another group 
>> whose name escapes me at the moment.  
 
I think you're referring to the Wanderers.... 
 
>>Of course, speaking of the Legion, there's 
>> always the Legion of Substitute Heroes - 
>> Polar Boy, Color Kid, Chlorophyll Kid, Stone 
>> Boy and others ?  
 
They did add others during the Giffen run--Double Header, Infectious 
Lass, Porcupine Girl, Night Lass 
 
And of course, my friend and I had to come up with the Legion of 
Substitute Substitutes, characters like Foul-Mouthed Boy and his brother 
Censorship Lad (their powers cancelled each other out), the All-Nighter 
(who could find an all-night deli anywhere in the galaxy) and Powerful 
Girl (an inhabitant of a planet of weaklings who has the proportional 
strength of a normal earth girl) 
 
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without 
 
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?" 
- --Harry Shearer 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP 
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:58:33 -0800 
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>Old New Mutant members Cypher, Rusty and Skids. Poor. 
 
>If you want to consider CYPHER from the New Mutants.  OOOOO... Languages. 
>Scare me more. 
> 
HEY, hey hey hey, don't y'all be talking about cypher like that, cypher ruled. 
I mean anyone who's got adamantium bones or a nova blast can go out and 
fight evil, but to fight the good fight when all you have is 20 points in 
universal translator, you got ta be a stud. Besides he had that thing going 
with Psylock ( and roulette, and raine). 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:12:36 +0000 
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net> 
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers 
 
Wayne Shaw wrote: 
 
> 
> >So I would call any 12+ DC attack a KA.  It's a rules change that 
> >makes the world more lethal, so any superhero with a CAK had better 
> >think twice before loosing the full force of his mightiest attack 
> >without knowing what the target can withstand. 
> 
> It's also seriously counter-genre. 
 
Then why, Wayne, does Cyclops hold back the full-force of his optic blasts? Why 
does Superman pull his punch when hitting normals (or even most supervillains)? 
Why does Batman not beat the living $#!+ out of muggers and thugs, leaving them 
comatose? 
 
I say it's because they know how damaging "Normal Attacks" are, and their Codes 
won't let them unload on someone they have a chance of killing or maiming. 
 
Gary 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:56:54 -0600 
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net> 
Subject: Re: Point balance vs. Power balance 
 
A small minority opinion here: 
I've run a few campaigns and had no guidelines whatsoever. Characters ranged 
from 250-515 points, right beside each other. Yes. Some players had more 
powerful characters than others. 
Disads were legion. Damage class limits? Nope.  Some characters even had 
"Mutation Bonuses" or "Experience Bonus" tallies to make them 'balance' 
 
The Justice League of Alabama campaign was described from the start as a 
hearkening back to the days when giants like Wonder Woman and Martian 
Manhunter were on the same team as Batman and Green Arrow. 
 
Character concepts, not numbers, were it's tenets. 
 
That's fine when all the players are close friends, but when they're not, 
it's important to have some type of play balance.  Otherwise the 10d6, 5 
speed players might be a little ticked off at the 25d6, 8 speed players. 
 
Character concept is 70%, but the 30% of equal playability is far more 
important when the combat starts against the Legion of Doom. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:48:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: RE: Loser Heroes 
 
>From: bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com (Brian Wawrow) 
 
>>There was a guy who scrapped SpiderMan a 
>> couple of times called the Leaper. He was 
>> presented with this bad French accent and 
>> barely a hint of irony.  
 
I think you're referring to the immortal Batroc the Leaper (or Leapair), 
a classic Captain America villian--when Byron Preiss let me know that 
the next anthology after X-MEN LEGENDS was going to be THE ULTIMATE 
CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE AVENGERS, I actually considered (and talked to 
my editor about) a story called "The Ultimate Batroc".....I LOVE THIS 
GUY!!! 
 
>>Also, the mentalist with low self esteem, 
>> Mentalo or something like that. Upon 
>> hearing his name, Bruce Banner exclaimed, 
>> 'That LOSER?'  
 
You mean Mentallo--partner of the Fixer. 
 
>>Hawkeye wasn't exactly a total loser but next 
>> to everyone else in the Defenders, he was a 
>> total Potsy. roll call: Dr. Strange, Namor, 
>> Silver Surfer [!], The Hulk and... [ahem] 
>> Hawkeye.  
 
I think you're referring to Nighthawk, who was one of my favorite Marvel 
characters, a guy with wings who I'm convinced the Defenders let hang 
around because he was FILTHY rich ("Hey, we need money for a new 
clubhouse...Nighthawk, give us money to build it and we'll let you come 
beat up Thanos with us."  "Okay!").  Nighthawk--who I envision as the 
Michael Mancini of the Marvel Universe--plays a pretty large role in my 
story in THE ULTIMATE HULK. 
 
>>There's a really good homepage dedicated to 
>> half-assed heros in Marvel called Attack of 
>> the Second Stringers here: 
>> http://www.flash.net/~jeanneb/index.html  
 
I'm there, dude! 
 
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without 
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?" 
- --Harry Shearer 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP 
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:20:21 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
> I think you're referring to the immortal Batroc the Leaper (or Leapair), 
> a classic Captain America villian--when Byron Preiss let me know that 
> the next anthology after X-MEN LEGENDS was going to be THE ULTIMATE 
> CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE AVENGERS, I actually considered (and talked to 
> my editor about) a story called "The Ultimate Batroc".....I LOVE THIS 
> GUY!!! 
 
Chalk me up as someone who loves Batroc too. Unlike most loser villains, the 
guy is fun. He tries so hard - he's like Wile E. Coyote in tights with a 
cheezy accent and a dumb goatee. 
 
I think the "best" loser heroes or villains are ones which don't take 
themselves *too* seriously, but which don't go all the way into camp or 
parodyland either. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:15:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>From: rabmiller@email.msn.com (Ronald A. Miller) 
 
>> That would be Batroc, he showed up in a 
>> few Captain America's too. His forte was 
>> Savate, actually. Wasn't he one of the 
>> Frightful Four or the Sinister Six or 
>> something like that?  
 
Batroc led his own mercenary super-villian team called Batroc's Brigade, 
composed primarily of old Shang Chi villians and a guy named Machete 
(who was pretty much a loser--his power?  He had a machete....)  
 
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without 
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?" 
- --Harry Shearer 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP 
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:20:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: DC: Loser Heroes 
 
>From: kevinmu@ccpl.carr.lib.md.us (Kevin Mulder) 
 
>>He eventually ended up with the *group* of 
>> losers called the Rangers, a sort of 
>> Western-motif version of the Lightning Rods. 
>> If he's been seen since the Rangers broke 
>> up in a long-ago issue of WEST COAST 
>> AVENGERS, I haven't heard Happy 
>> Mort-ing(to borrow a phrase from WIZARD 
>> Magazine)! Later!  
 
The other Rangers were, if I remember correctly, Shooting Star (she had 
a gun that shot star-saped projectiles; turned out to be a demon), Night 
Rider (grandson of the somewhat cool Western Hero), Red Wolf (Indian 
hero) and Firebird (who briefly became a missionary super called 
Espiranza before deciding to go back to her old name and make guest 
appearances in THE AVENGERS--best known for Marvel's attempt to mislead 
us into thinking she was Pheonix reincarnated) 
 
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without 
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?" 
- --Harry Shearer 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP 
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:50:11 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>Cypher 
 
Anyone old enough to have read the fan fiction piece "Kid Dynamo"? 
(author: Connie Hirsch; used to be on ocf.berkeley.edu somewhere) 
 
Old Doug isn't so wimpy in *there* once he learns the languages of 
Martial Arts and DNA... 
 
  Donald 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:44:14 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: superleap attacks 
 
Ronald A. Miller wrote: 
> >If you want it the other way, "overall resistance of the character's 
> >physiology" is called PD. 
> > 
> This goes beyond PD, refer to the original post if you still have it.  You 
> don't have to be a Brick to have Superleap (character concept aside). 
 
I have cat MA with superleap. 
Superleap and landing badly; I never have made a character make a roll to land 
correctly if he initiated the leap.  Just if he was dropped out of a building, 
etc...  Maybe if he was shot and knocked back while leaping. 
 
House rule alert: 
When a character is falling, I base the minuses to the Dex roll only on 
velocity, not on height.  If you're falling from 2 miles up, you've got a lot 
of time to get ready.  Though I haven't thought about bonuses for time.  Makes 
falling further a better deal, but then cats get better at surviving falls 
from a certain height. 
 
>  
> > 
> >>PS I also remember an old Dragon article that had some poorly thought out 
> >>Champions powers and skills including the skill: "Bouncing". 
> > 
> >Steve Maurer's article, after it was rejected by Adventurer's Club? 
> >"Champions Minus", I believe it was called... 
> > 
> Was that it?  When did it come out?  I'm gonna lose sleep if I don't find 
> it.  It's here somewhere...  It had a characture of Steve P. in "Generic 
> Hero"s costume right (a big hex on the chest, not Herculan)? 
 
I don't think it was called Champions Minus.  I think it came out around '85, 
but 
I could be wrong.  Our group called them Maurerisms.  Even though we gamed 
with 
Steve, our group rejected half of them.  Not that Steve didn't have some good 
ideas.  I really liked his Macross game. 
 
- -Mark Lemming 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:55:53 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: superleap attacks 
 
>Note that this message (like the other two) is being sent PRIVATELY... 
 
All right, but I don't know why, it's an interesting string :-) 
 
 
>No, I wouldn't agree at all.  When you leap off the building just before 
>the bomb explodes, the bomb's overpressure wave might catch up to you and 
>unbalance you.  You can't just *say* you land correctly; that's the GM's 
>job.  Your character does his best to do rational things, but circumstances 
>can alter the actual results. 
> 
My head's hurting... as PC you can declare actions, if the GM deems a roll 
necessary then that's fine.  In a typical Superleap move (we're not talking 
about attacks anymore) you don't need a roll to land safely according to the 
rules.  Again, depending on the situation, you may or may not have control 
over jumping (explosion overpressure yada yada) but that is in no way 
universal. 
 
>Further... 
> 
>Superleap is a movement power.  Without applying Advantages and 
Limitations, 
>the following statements are true about it: 
> 
>(a) it adds to the leap that Strength already entitles you to have. 
>(b) you can half-Superleap and still attack with your full OCV. 
>(c) you can reduce your falling damage. 
 
 
(c) I'm talking about (c) only, welcome to the conversation (don't take this 
the wrong way...) 
 
>But (c) can only happen if you're in a position to do so (DEX, Acrobatics, 
>or Breakfall roll to get "your feet" under you).  If you have interesting 
>SFX that always makes this so, you almost certainly must pay points for 
>other powers to fill in the gaps of that SFX. 
> 
OK I'll bite, but if you make the roll then no damage, right?  Why would 
anybody buy Superleap if it would end up in self-mutilation?  I'm not trying 
to get anything for free, it's a side effect like extra dice for a sonic 
attack underwater. 
 
> 
>>>If you want it the other way, "overall resistance of the character's 
>>>physiology" is called PD. 
>> 
>>This goes beyond PD, refer to the original post if you still have it.  You 
>>don't have to be a Brick to have Superleap (character concept aside). 
> 
>But if your character has 'physiological resistance' to falls, such that 
>hitting him with an object as big as the ground generically doesn't do 
>him damage, THAT'S PD.  You may buy it with the limitation "only vs area 
>effect and falling damage" or something, but YOU MUST BUY IT. 
 
 
Here you are going full bore off track, I'm not talking about anything but 
surviving the fall once your character Superleaps up.  A 50 pt character 
with 50 pts in Superleap and a 3 PD is assumed to be able to survive the 
downfall from the Superleap. 
> 
 
And so it goes... 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:14:25 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Kid Dynamo (was Re: Loser Heroes) 
 
Okay, this is probably a mistake, but I've grabbed the hard-to-locate 
Kid Dynamo archives and put them in 
 
     http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~tsang 
 
It's pretty long, but it's great stuff.  Well, it's great stuff if you 
used to read "The New Mutants" and were hugely disappointed by X-Force. 
 
It takes place (if I recall correctly) after the 'kids return from their 
Asgardian capers, before Illyana ever dies, during the term where Magneto 
was a "good guy". 
 
 
(I used to read this stuff?  [the comics, not the fanfic]) 
 
  Donald 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:26:51 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@home.com> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
Donald Tsang wrote: 
 
> >Cypher 
> 
> Anyone old enough to have read the fan fiction piece "Kid Dynamo"? 
> (author: Connie Hirsch; used to be on ocf.berkeley.edu somewhere) 
> 
> Old Doug isn't so wimpy in *there* once he learns the languages of 
> Martial Arts and DNA... 
 
Oh sure, attach the stigma of 'old'.. but yep, I've read it.  FANTASTIC 
story.  If only the writers of The New Mutants could have come up with a 
storyline even HALF as imaginative. 
 
Is the story still available on the web anywhere?  I would LOVE to 
re-read it. 
 
 
Todd 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:23:10 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
>>Cypher 
> 
>Anyone old enough to have read the fan fiction piece "Kid Dynamo"? 
>(author: Connie Hirsch; used to be on ocf.berkeley.edu somewhere) 
> 
>Old Doug isn't so wimpy in *there* once he learns the languages of 
>Martial Arts and DNA... 
 
I once thought about the implications of letting Doug loose in Dr. Strange's 
library... 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:43:05 -0800 
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Subject: Reply to does not go to champ-l 
 
I know this has been discused before, but I must admit I wasn't paying 
enought attention. 
Why is the list set up so that the messages are "from" the writer of the 
message instead of "from" the champ-l list. 
(I just hit "reply to" and sent a message that was intended to the list as 
a whole to just the person who wrote the message, usually I rember to 
change the "to" field, usually.) 
	Max Callahan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:53:09 -0500 
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: superleap attacks 
 
Sorry, man.  Every one who takes offense can contact me.  :-D  I'm used to 
it already...  BTW it's the truth right?  It's been long enough that I'm 
sure it's just dust in the wind now. 
 
Your pal 
Miller 
 
 
>>>Note that this message (like the other two) is being sent PRIVATELY... 
>> 
>>All right, but I don't know why, it's an interesting string :-) 
> 
>Actually, it was my classification of Steve Maurer's "Champions Minus" 
>as "having been rejected by Adventurer's Club" that I didn't want 
>paraded around publically. 
> 
>People might take undue offense. 
> 
>  Donald 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:02:06 -0500 
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net> 
Subject: RE: Character: Bilbo Baggins 
 
> 10	PRE	0 
I'd probably raise this to 13; not because he's impressive, 
but because he's both very personable and has that 'elder' 
feeling (subjective, I know). 
 
I'd also add PS: Writer to his skills, and give him a 
psych lim "Wants the ring back" (Uncommon, Strong).  A very 
good write-up, IMHO. 
 
	----Scott 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:45:11 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: Loser Heroes 
 
(this is from Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com&> who misaddressed his reply) 
 
>>Cypher 
> 
>Anyone old enough to have read the fan fiction piece "Kid Dynamo"? 
>(author: Connie Hirsch; used to be on ocf.berkeley.edu somewhere) 
> 
>Old Doug isn't so wimpy in *there* once he learns the languages of 
>Martial Arts and DNA... 
 
And does the obvious thing, puts on some armor.  I tried to build the "New" 
Doug once lordy he's expensive what with his ability to use every skill 
(literaly every skill if it existed, he had it (his power had gotten 
expanded from the ability to use any language to the ability to use any 
skill)) and the gadget pool. But then again I also tried to build Jesica 
(got as far as the 75 STR TK, fine manipulation, affects porus, 0 end, 
fully invisible, Area affect: any area. Then I realised I needed to make it 
a MP for all the other TK tricks  (the missile deflection, the AVLD RKA) 
and stopped) 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:44:31 -0800 (PST) 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Killing and Expectations 
 
B.C. Holmes writes: 
 
> 	In a V&V campaign, I once set up (or, rather, the mad scientist  
> set up) a situation [...] 
> 
> And that one time, the bad guy was vapourized.  With TV crews nearby, 
 
     Just make sure you give the players an decent chance to handle 
the situation correctly.  I got really hosed in one campaign, when I 
slammed a seemingly invulnerable 'toon into the side of a mountain at 
Mach 3, killing him instantly. 
 
     I was fairly surprised because he'd laughed off some of my best 
shots earlier.  To quote the GM, "No, he really was hurt by those 
shots.  He wasn't invulnerable, just crazy."  Of course, that didn't 
stop the GM from putting my character through a kangaroo murder trial, 
etc. 
 
     Feh. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #149 
*****************************