Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 156

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:58 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #156 
 
 
champ-l-digest       Saturday, January 23 1999       Volume 01 : Number 156 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Hero Games website 
    Re: Character: Celeborn 
    Re: Hero Games website 
    Re: More Triggered Questions 
    Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
    Re: Character: Celeborn 
    RE: Hero Games website 
    Multipower and Entangle 
    Re: RE: Hero Games website 
    Charcter: Eomer 
    Re: Character: Celeborn 
    Re: Character: Celeborn 
    Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
    Re: Multipower and Entangle 
    Re: List Help 
    Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
    Re: Multipower and Entangle 
    Re: Multipower and Entangle 
    Re: Character: Celeborn 
    Re: Character: Goodgulf 
    Re: Character: Goodgulf 
    Caveat emptor 
    Re: Charcter: Eomer 
    Sigh: Elrond Note 
    Re: Charcter: Eomer 
    Levels and Limitations 
    test message 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:28:10 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games website 
 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
 
<snip talk about the HG website being down> 
>   I suggest announcing both here and on the Fuzion list (where this is 
>also under discussion) when it's back in working order.  :-] 
 
 
Your suggestion is my command. Or something like that. 
 
They're baaaack. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:24:18 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Character: Celeborn 
 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
 
 
>Michael Hayden mhayden@tsoft.com 1/21/99 10:13 PM 
<snip> 
>>Umm, in the Mirror scene, doesn't Galadriel also tell Frodo that the 
>>second ring is with Elrond and that the third is "hidden"? It would 
>>suggest that she knows Gandalf has it... 
> 
>Actually, sence she says outright who has Vilya her not saying Gandalf 
>had (as he was "dead" at that point, anyway) Narya implies to me she 
>didn't know... 
 
Actually, to me it implies neither one. It could mean "Our enemies know 
where Vilya is, so I can tell you", or it could mean, "I don't know where 
Narya is", or it could mean a number of other things. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:57:17 EST 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Hero Games website 
 
The Hero Games web site is back up!  Hopefully there'll be no more 
interruptions. Bruce will perform his update later today. 
 
In related news, the last bureaucratic hurdle has been cleared, and therefore 
our online store should be operational again in a few days! Then we'll be 
pushing for making our e-products downloadable. When the store goes up, we'll 
have at least one new product to offer, so stay tuned! We also have 4 or 5 new 
products coming up in February, so keep checking our site. We'll be posting 
info about the new products next week. 
 
 Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 22 Jan 1999 13:34:17 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: More Triggered Questions 
 
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"LH" == Lisa Hartjes <beren@unforgettable.com> writes: 
 
LH> Hmm....  Did what I just say make any sense to anyone but me?  :) 
 
Yeah.  And like I said, Damage Shield is *NOT* Trigger.  So, just ignore 
everything about Trigger when it comes to Damage Shield. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:18:13 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
 
From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com> 
 
 
 
>I wrote: 
<snip> 
>     The realism isn't an attempt to force physics into comics, but 
>rather keeping the social and psychological aspects of the situation 
>realistic, sometimes by house rules (usually limiting power levels) 
>and sometimes by roleplaying.  For example, I like games where the 
>power norms are kept within a sufficient range that normals with can 
>be a significant threat.  A heavy pistol (2d6+1 RKA) may not *kill* 
>the hero but neither should it be negligible, particularly in the 
>hands of an exceptional person (who might have Find Weakness). 
 
 
A _very_ heavy pistol.:) 2d6+1 RKA cannot be found in an automatic, and only 
a tiny handful of revolvers, as even a .44 Magnum only reaches 2d6. A .454 
Casull is the only revolver I _know_ reaches those muzzle energies, which 
appears to be what Hero Games bases their damage estimates on. 
 
<snip> 
>     I think this is why I like playing superhero RPGs, plus perhaps 
>the mythic aspects.  Brin has said in forewords, etc, that most of his 
>short work tends to be quite "mythic" in flavor (which is why The 
>Postman, which started life as three novellas, had that aspect to it - 
>the book was *much* better than the movie, I recommend it highly). 
 
 
Absolutely. Brin's "The Postman" was a _good_ book, mangled into a _bad_ 
movie that only somewhat resembled the book. I recommend the book highly, 
myself. 
 
The only part I didn't like was when certain characters near the end of the 
book did _something_ (I won't explain, that would give too much away), that 
was inconsistent with basic mechanical physics. Since Brin is a physicist, I 
found this disappointing. To be fair, though, it was the sort of thing an 
engineer would spot more readily than a physicist. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:46:10 -0800 (PST) 
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Celeborn 
 
On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, John P Weatherman wrote: 
 
> >Umm, in the Mirror scene, doesn't Galadriel also tell Frodo that the 
> >second ring is with Elrond and that the third is "hidden"? It would 
> >suggest that she knows Gandalf has it... 
>  
> Actually, sence she says outright who has Vilya her not saying Gandalf 
> had (as he was "dead" at that point, anyway) Narya implies to me she 
> didn't know... 
 
Ah, but Galadriel was also a precog/clairvoyant, via the Mirror. One of 
Frodo's own visions was apparently of Gandalf wandering near Fangorn 
before he met up with Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn.  
 
We could just as easily guess that as soon as the Fellowship delivered the 
news to Galadriel and Celeborn, Galadriel went to the Mirror and used it 
to find out Gandalf's ultimate fate. Think about it -- of all the 
Fellowship, only Aragorn really understood that Gandalf and the Balrog 
were both Maiar, but he was so torn up by his apparent failure as a leader 
that he couldn't keep the story straight. Galadriel heard the news and 
figured, "Hey, Gandalf can't be beaten that easily. Maybe he survived the 
battle." Poof, off she went to her Mirror... 
 
As for Galadriel's motivation to not tell the Fellowship that Gandalf 
might have survived? Easy -- the Fellowship would want to wait in Lorien 
for Gandalf to come out of Moria and be healed. Galadriel knew the 
Fellowship couldn't afford that kind of delay, so she sent them on, 
content in her own mind that Gandalf would catch up to them when needed. 
 
Bah, this is all a huge tangent. Long story short: I think that as a 
clairvoyant and as a fellow ringbearer, Galadriel knew Gandalf had Narya. 
In telling Frodo only that the third ring was "hidden," she was simply 
hedging her bets on if/when/how Gandalf would make it out of Moria. 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
   Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/ 
          Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away!  (^_^) 
 "What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors." 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:10:35 -0500 
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
Subject: RE: Hero Games website 
 
Any word on when the on-line store will be activated [8 or less] again? I've 
been entirely unsuccessful putting my hands on a copy of Broken Kingdoms.  
 
I've never had such a hard time parting with cash before. The up side is 
that the exchange rate I get on the U.S. dollar is getting better every day. 
:| 
 
] >   I suggest announcing both here and on the Fuzion list  
] (where this is 
] >also under discussion) when it's back in working order.  :-] 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:30:16 -0800 
From: Kirk Lund <klund@technologist.com> 
Subject: Multipower and Entangle 
 
Question: Say a speedster has Entangle, "Only with items in the 
envirnoment" placed into a Multipower of speedy-things-he-can-do. 
He uses this to entangle opponents with things like spare tires, trash 
cans, rope, cable, anything he can find.  If he switches to a different 
slot to use, say, Missile Deflection or his Super-Noogie attack, 
does this Entangle automatically go down? 
 
(I could've sworn this came up on the list recently, but can't find the 
posts in my mailbox.) 
 
- --Kirk 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:52:22 EST 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Subject: Re: RE: Hero Games website 
 
In a message dated 1/22/99 11:38:14 AM, bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com 
writes: 
 
>Any word on when the on-line store will be activated [8 or less] again? 
>I've been entirely unsuccessful putting my hands on a copy of Broken 
Kingdoms. 
> 
 
The online store could be operational as early as Monday; it just depends on 
how fast things move from point A to point B, and get implemented by someone. 
I'd suspect Tuesday or Wednesday as more likely, though. 
 
 Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:49:07 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Charcter: Eomer 
 
EOMER, THIRD MARSHALL OF THE RIDDERMARK 
 
15	STR	5 
16	DEX	18 
18	CON	16 
16	BODY	12 
15	INT	5 
20	EGO	20 
18	PRE	8 
14	COM	2 
8	PD	5 
6	ED	2 
4	SPD	14 
10	REC	6 
46	END	5 
55	STUN	27 
Characteristics Cost: 145 
 
5	WF,Lances,Common Melee,Common Missile	 
32	4 Levels,all combat	 
10	2 Levels: Mounted Combat,related group	 
10	1 Levels,all skills	 
		 
11	Animal Handler 15-	 
3	High Society 13	- 
9	Navigation 14-	 
5	Oratory 14-	 
17	Riding 19-	 
13	Survival 16-	 
9	Tactics 15-	 
9	Tracking 15-	 
		 
3	Bump Of Direction	 
7	14- Fast Draw	 
5	1D6 Luck	 
4	+2" Running 
		 
1	Lang: Rohirric,native,literacy	 
4	Lang: Westron,fluent w/accent,literacy	 
		 
8	AK: Rohan 17-	 
3	AK: Anorien 12-	 
4	KS: Eothraim History 13-	 
5	KS: Rohan Politics 14- 
3	KS: Orc Tribes 12- 
		 
5	14- Contact: Theoden	 
4	13- Contact: Marshals of Rohan	 
2	11- Contact: Gandalf	 
		 
75	2,000 100-point Followers (The Eastern Riddermark)	 
		 
5	Member of Aristocracy	 
5	Money	 
 
Powers Cost: 276 
Total Cost: 421 
 
Base Points: 75 
13	Watched,"By Theoden",more powerful,noncombat influence, 
	 harsh,appear 11- 
10	Watched,"Saruman",more powerful,noncombat influence,harsh, 
	 appear 8- 
5	Watched,"Grima Wormtongue",less powerful,noncombat 
	 influence,harsh,appear 8- 
15	Psychological Limitation,"Loyal to Theoden",common,strong 
10	Psychological Limitation,"Protective of Eowyn",common, 
	 moderate 
15	Psychological Limitation,"Hatred of Orcs",common,strong 
10	Public ID,"Third Marshall of the Riddermark" 
10	Reputation,"Great Leader",occur 11- 
258	Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 346 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 421 
 
Eomer, son of Eomund, is the nephew of King Theoden of Rohan, 
and one of his warleaders.  The evil counsel of Grima turned Theoden's 
heart against his nephew, and so Eomer was not welcome in the halls 
of Edoras.  Despite that, he remained faithful to his king and his country, 
and occasionally received the wise counsel of Gandalf. 
 
During the War of the Ring, Eomer fought heroically at the Hornburg, 
the Pelennor Fields and the Morannon and became fast friends with  
Aragorn.  As Theoden lay dying on  the Pelennor Fields, he named 
Eomer his heir and successor, and so Eomer became the eighteenth 
king of Rohan.   
 
In Third Age 3020, he married Lothiriel of Dol Amroth and together they 
had one child, Elfwine the Fair.  Eomer also renewed the Oath of Eorl  
with Aragorn (now King Elessar) and fought beside him in Harad and Rhun 
into the Fourth Age.  Eomer was born in Third Age 2991, was twenty-eight 
at the time of the war of the ring, and died in Fourth Age 63 at the age of 
ninety-three. 
 
NOTES: 
 
1)The "harsh" notation under the "Watched by Theoden" disadvantage 
is because of Grima's evil counsel.  Eomer was close to being jailed 
for treason. 
 
2) Eowyn is -not- a DNPC because as a "less powerful", "useful skills" 
she would be worth no points.  Moreover, Eowyn can take care of herself! 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal  
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,  
or dangerous to do so." 
        Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:09:49 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Celeborn 
 
Agreed on all accounts. Galadriel was the symbolic equivalent for the Third Age 
that Melian was for the First Age, just as Lothlorien has many of the same 
properties that Doriath had in the First Age (magically hard to reach, sanctuary of 
the Wood Elves ruled by High Elves); it's hard to underestimate her power and 
knowledge. Even before Tolkien raised Galadriel to the equal of Feanor (as he did 
in his later writings, when he also removed her from the status of rebel against 
the Valar), she was the oldest of the elven lords still in Middle-earth, and as 
granddaughter of Finwe, sister of Finrod (the most sympathetic of all elven lords 
in the Silmarillion), and Melian's pupil, had a status that no one else had in 
Middle-earth. Her skeptical reaction to Gandalf's death, and her role as the first 
person in Middle-earth to whom Gandalf turned after his return (IIRC) convinces me 
that it would be unlikely that she *wouldn't* know the disposition of all elven 
rings. And we thought the Balrog was controversial... 
 
But Scott hasn't hit the "G"s yet. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
Michael Hayden wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, John P Weatherman wrote: 
> 
> > >Umm, in the Mirror scene, doesn't Galadriel also tell Frodo that the 
> > >second ring is with Elrond and that the third is "hidden"? It would 
> > >suggest that she knows Gandalf has it... 
> > 
> > Actually, sence she says outright who has Vilya her not saying Gandalf 
> > had (as he was "dead" at that point, anyway) Narya implies to me she 
> > didn't know... 
> 
> Ah, but Galadriel was also a precog/clairvoyant, via the Mirror. One of 
> Frodo's own visions was apparently of Gandalf wandering near Fangorn 
> before he met up with Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn. 
> 
> We could just as easily guess that as soon as the Fellowship delivered the 
> news to Galadriel and Celeborn, Galadriel went to the Mirror and used it 
> to find out Gandalf's ultimate fate. Think about it -- of all the 
> Fellowship, only Aragorn really understood that Gandalf and the Balrog 
> were both Maiar, but he was so torn up by his apparent failure as a leader 
> that he couldn't keep the story straight. Galadriel heard the news and 
> figured, "Hey, Gandalf can't be beaten that easily. Maybe he survived the 
> battle." Poof, off she went to her Mirror... 
> 
> As for Galadriel's motivation to not tell the Fellowship that Gandalf 
> might have survived? Easy -- the Fellowship would want to wait in Lorien 
> for Gandalf to come out of Moria and be healed. Galadriel knew the 
> Fellowship couldn't afford that kind of delay, so she sent them on, 
> content in her own mind that Gandalf would catch up to them when needed. 
> 
> Bah, this is all a huge tangent. Long story short: I think that as a 
> clairvoyant and as a fellow ringbearer, Galadriel knew Gandalf had Narya. 
> In telling Frodo only that the third ring was "hidden," she was simply 
> hedging her bets on if/when/how Gandalf would make it out of Moria. 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>    Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/ 
>           Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away!  (^_^) 
>  "What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors." 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:53:58 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Celeborn 
 
At 12:09 PM 1/22/99 -0800, Scott Bennie wrote: 
 
>Middle-earth. Her skeptical reaction to Gandalf's death, and her role as the 
first 
>person in Middle-earth to whom Gandalf turned after his return (IIRC) 
convinces me 
>that it would be unlikely that she *wouldn't* know the disposition of all 
elven 
>rings. And we thought the Balrog was controversial... 
> 
>But Scott hasn't hit the "G"s yet. 
 
And now I'm scared... 
 
I'll be doing two versions of Gandalf, BTW.  The Grey and the White.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal  
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,  
or dangerous to do so." 
        Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:34:22 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
 
On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com> 
> >     The realism isn't an attempt to force physics into comics, but 
> >rather keeping the social and psychological aspects of the situation 
> >realistic, sometimes by house rules (usually limiting power levels) 
> >and sometimes by roleplaying.  For example, I like games where the 
> >power norms are kept within a sufficient range that normals with can 
> >be a significant threat.  A heavy pistol (2d6+1 RKA) may not *kill* 
> >the hero but neither should it be negligible, particularly in the 
> >hands of an exceptional person (who might have Find Weakness). 
>  
> A _very_ heavy pistol.:) 2d6+1 RKA cannot be found in an automatic, and only 
> a tiny handful of revolvers, as even a .44 Magnum only reaches 2d6. A .454 
> Casull is the only revolver I _know_ reaches those muzzle energies, which 
> appears to be what Hero Games bases their damage estimates on. 
 
Actually, 2d6+1 RKA is used for an automatic pistol, the IMI Desert Eagle 
.50.  The .454 Casull is the only revolver I know of that is written up as 
a 2d6+1 RKA. 
  
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
            "What would you do with a brain if you *had* one?" 
             Dorothy (Judy Garland), from _The Wizard of Oz_ 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 22 Jan 1999 16:55:32 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower and Entangle 
 
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"KL" == Kirk Lund <klund@technologist.com> writes: 
 
KL> If he switches to a different slot to use, say, Missile Deflection or 
KL> his Super-Noogie attack, does this Entangle automatically go down? 
 
No.  Entangle creates a permanent object.  It does not go away until it is 
destroyed.  If you want/need a similar power that goes away, try using 
Telekenesis instead. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ head. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:50:32 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: List Help 
 
At 01:43 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote: 
>On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> wrote: 
> 
>>I want to thank the list for all the support and comments 
>>I've received in writing up Tolkien's characters.  I read and 
>>consider every post, and will be making many of the suggested 
>>improvements in the final drafts, which I plan to post on my 
>>website when I am all through. 
> 
>On that note, where exactly is your website?  I'll be wanting to keep an  
>eye out for the final drafts.  I'm always interested in character  
>writeups.  Good work so far... 
 
Thank you.  None of these writeups (or any others) are on the site 
yet.  That can wait until I'm finished.  But the site is at: 
 
http://www.erols.com/nolan  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal  
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,  
or dangerous to do so." 
        Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 22 Jan 1999 17:24:56 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant) 
 
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"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> writes: 
 
MS> Actually, 2d6+1 RKA is used for an automatic pistol, the IMI Desert 
MS> Eagle .50.  The .454 Casull is the only revolver I know of that is 
MS> written up as a 2d6+1 RKA. 
 
That would be because .454 Casul is >< more powerful than .50 Magnum.  They  
are considered comparable loads. 
 
And please do not confuse .50 Mag with .50 Browning, which is way more 
powerful than either handgun load. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:11:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multipower and Entangle 
 
At 11:30 AM 1/22/99 -0800, Kirk Lund wrote: 
>Question: Say a speedster has Entangle, "Only with items in the 
>envirnoment" placed into a Multipower of speedy-things-he-can-do. 
>He uses this to entangle opponents with things like spare tires, trash 
>cans, rope, cable, anything he can find.  If he switches to a different 
>slot to use, say, Missile Deflection or his Super-Noogie attack, 
>does this Entangle automatically go down? 
 
   Nope.  There's no logical reason for it to. 
   The only Power this seems to apply to is Aid, and personally I think 
this should be done with a Limitation rather than a default condition. 
 
>(I could've sworn this came up on the list recently, but can't find the 
>posts in my mailbox.) 
 
   Perhaps a similar discussion came up, but I never saw it (though a 
couple of discussions got kinda strange, and I skipped them, so it's hard 
to tell). 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:34:25 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Multipower and Entangle 
 
>Question: Say a speedster has Entangle, "Only with items in the 
>envirnoment" placed into a Multipower of speedy-things-he-can-do. 
>He uses this to entangle opponents with things like spare tires, trash 
>cans, rope, cable, anything he can find.  If he switches to a different 
>slot to use, say, Missile Deflection or his Super-Noogie attack, 
>does this Entangle automatically go down? 
> 
>(I could've sworn this came up on the list recently, but can't find the 
>posts in my mailbox.) 
 
No.  Entangle is an instant power with an ongoing effect, just like most 
other attack powers.  The only place where this logic is somewhat ignored in 
the rules is the benign end of the effect of Adjustment powers, because the 
consequences of not doing so would be too horrible to contemplate. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:39:09 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Celeborn 
 
this is a great discussion.  sigh. 
if only it could be on the FH list. 
 
(not a flame, just the FH list begs for this...) 
== 
===========================  Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid == 
=== JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ =========== 
=== http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html = 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:35:18 -0800 (PST) 
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Goodgulf 
 
>MBh, this is all  ory short: I thnk that as a 
>claioyant  Galarel knew Gadalf had Nya. 
>In telng Fro g was "hiddn" she was smply 
>hging her be uld make it out of Mria. 
 
Galadwrap hid the ring because of certain intimate  
personal favors she owed Goodgulf. Had Frito learned  
of her Magic Ring, he would've ran to Gulfie like a  
wino with a $20 pawn ticket and sold her out, man. 
 
Consider everything else Frito knew about the Rings,  
Sorhed, the plottings of Serutan and the land of Gonad: 
That knowledge and two farthings will get you a cup 
of hot java in downtown Minas Troney... 
 
 
== 
===========================  Elliott  aka  The Egyptoid == 
=== JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ =========== 
=== http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html = 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:09:13 -0800 (PST) 
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Goodgulf 
 
On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Ell Egyptoid wrote: 
 
> Galadwrap hid the ring because of certain intimate  
> personal favors she owed Goodgulf. Had Frito learned  
> of her Magic Ring, he would've ran to Gulfie like a  
> wino with a $20 pawn ticket and sold her out, man. 
>  
> Consider everything else Frito knew about the Rings,  
> Sorhed, the plottings of Serutan and the land of Gonad: 
> That knowledge and two farthings will get you a cup 
> of hot java in downtown Minas Troney... 
 
Ah, so you've read "Bored of the Rings" too... 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
   Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/ 
          Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away!  (^_^) 
 "What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors." 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:05:33 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Caveat emptor 
 
As part of a recent discussion on 1st through 4th editions of Champions, 
Steve Peterson was good enough to provide specific descriptions of each 
one.  He noted at the time that Hero Games still had some copies of 1st 
edition (not first printing, but 1st edition) available for sale.  Based on 
these descriptions -- 
 
"BTW, just to clear up the historical record: The first edition of Champions 
was a 4-color cover (predominantly blue!) book, 64 pages long, for $10. (You 
can still pick up copies of the second printing of this book; see the order 
form on our web site. We have a few left for the collectors...) The second 
edition was a boxed set with the same cover..." 
 
- -- and on a close examination of my own books, I decided that my earliest 
book was 2nd edition.  I decided to indulge myself in a frivolous addition 
to the collection and spend $10 to buy a 1st edition copy. 
 
I didn't get one. 
 
Instead of the 64-page book described above, I was sent an 80-page book 
clearly marked 2nd edition.  I already own this book; in fact both the copy 
I already had, and the one I received today, are from the Fourth Printing 
of the 2nd Edition.  It kind of feels like I wasted $10, though the new 
copy is of course in pristine shape, something that cannot be said of my 
earlier copy. 
 
I wrote Hero Games about it, and received a reply within a couple of hours. 
 I don't know *who* replied (it was just signed "Hero Games"), but whoever 
it was apologized and agreed to update the Hero Plus orderform to reflect 
what was actually available.  No offer could be made to replace the 2nd 
edition book I'd received with the 1st edition book I'd ordered, because 
they do not in fact have any 1st edition books. 
 
Steve Peterson's claim that they did was backed up by the online orderform, 
and I don't blame him personally for the mix-up...unless, of course, he is 
solely responsible for both maintaining the product inventory and for 
editing the online orderform, in which case:  Bad Steve!  Bad Steve!  :) 
 
Hero Games is *not* a bad retailer, and I do *not* want to discourage 
anyone from ordering from them.  But for those few items where there could 
be some ambiguity in what's being ordered -- to avoid disappointments, ask 
first. 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:56:29 EST 
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> 
Subject: Re: Charcter: Eomer 
 
>5	14- Contact: Theoden	 
>4	13- Contact: Marshals of Rohan	 
>2	11- Contact: Gandalf	 
 
How about a Contact with Aragorn as well?  They became friends pretty 
rapidly, IIRC. 
 
Leah 
 
___________________________________________________________________ 
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:51:19 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Sigh: Elrond Note 
 
Another error.  In the Second Draft, I meant for the ring, Vilya,  
to have 15d6 of Aid, at a cost of 10 points per die, not 30d6 
at a cost of 5 per. 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal  
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,  
or dangerous to do so." 
        Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:49:54 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Charcter: Eomer 
 
At 11:56 PM 1/22/99 -0500, you wrote: 
>>5     14- Contact: Theoden     
>>4     13- Contact: Marshals of Rohan   
>>2     11- Contact: Gandalf     
> 
>How about a Contact with Aragorn as well?  They became friends pretty 
>rapidly, IIRC. 
 
But only toward the end of the War of the Ring.  Any time after late 3019, I  
would agree with you.  I have attempted to model the character more or less 
at the point where he met the Three Walkers.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal  
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,  
or dangerous to do so." 
        Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:37:34 EST 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Subject: Levels and Limitations 
 
In one of the Middle Earth writeups, someone mentioned that only 5-point and 
higher Levels could be bought with Limitations. This is 'by the book' for 4th 
ed - but it's something I'd like to see changed in 5th ed.  
 
As GM, I allow Limiations on 2- and 3-point levels as long as at least five 
points worth of levels are packaged together. For example, if a player buys a 
blaster rifle with two 3-point levels, I'll allow a Focus Limitation applied 
to the 6 points.  
 
I've also slightly redefined the different levels of Levels to work out what I 
see as a kink in the progression and to eliminate the concept of the 'tight 
group.' IMHO the 'tight group' requires too many judgment calls and is too 
vulnerable to abuse.  
 
The way I define Levels are:  
 
2-pt: Can only be used as a +1 'fixed' Level with a single attack. It will 
almost always be a +1 OCV, but can be defined as a +1 DCV if the conception 
really really calls for it.   
 
3-pt: Can be used either as a 'flexible' Level (applied to OCV, DCV or extra 
damage) with a single attack, *or* as a 'fixed' level with a group of related 
attacks (a set of maneuvers in a martial art, the set of powers in a 
Multipower, etc.) If used as a 'fixed' level, it will usually be defined +1 
OCV, but may be defined as a +1 DCV with a good conception (e.g. a 'Crazed 
Weasel' martial art might take one or more +1 DCV levels with all its 
maneuvers to represent the emphasis on not getting hit.) 
 
5-pt: Can be used either as a 'flexible' Level with a group of related 
attacks, *or* as a 'fixed' Level with all combat. If used as a 'fixed' Level, 
it will usually be defined as +1 DCV with all combat. [I don't use the split 
between 'hand to hand combat' and 'ranged combat' with this. It's officially 
listed as an optional rule in the BBB, and as GM I officially option it *out* 
of my games.] 
 
8-pt: A 'flexible' Level with all combat, as described in the BBB.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:32:26 EST 
From: DVBaum@aol.com 
Subject: test message 
 
This is only a test 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #156 
***************************** 


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