Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 174

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 4:41 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #174 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Sunday, January 31 1999        Volume 01 : Number 174 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: dux and stuff 
    Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
    Other SRPGs as source material? 
    Re: Champs Mailing List 
    Taking BODY 
    Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
    Re: Champs Mailing List 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
    Re: Character: Gandalf The Grey 
    Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
    Re: Taking BODY 
    Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Life Support 
    Re: GenCon 99 
    capitol patrol 
    Re: Life Support 
    Re: Life Support 
    Re: Champs Mailing List 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:36:24 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
[Snippet of example of using the disabling/impairing rules deleted] 
 
> How does this seem unrealistic to you?-- 
 
It doesn't seem unrealistic. It doesn't seem very genre for a four color 
superhero game either. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:11:12 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
 
- ---David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
> 
> For anyone who is familiar with Superhero RPGs other than Champions, 
could 
> you comment on their value in the following categories? 
>  
> * Ideas for powers 
> * Ideas for character disadvantages (150 points of disads is always 
hard 
> for my group to achieve without stretching the concept somewhat..."I 
guess 
> I'll be hunted and have a 2nd DNPC, because I don't know how else to 
get to 
> 150 points") 
> * Adventure ideas / GM tips on running a superhero campaign 
>  
> The games I have in mind are GURPS Supers and Heroes Unlimited, 2nd 
> Edition.  I own the 1st editions of both Marvel Super Heroes and DC 
Heroes, 
> but haven't looked at them in ages, so I don't know how much I could 
glean 
> from them.  Anyway, I always find those two games I mentioned very 
tempting 
> from a source material perspective, but I always decide against 
buying them 
> (I assume I would also want to buy the GURPS rulebook in order to 
> understand the stats provided for the powers and whatnot).  I don't 
really 
> care how good or bad the rules are, since I don't really want to 
switch 
> from Hero (way too much invested in it, financially and 
intellectually, 
> plus I just like it).  I'm just looking for sources for fresh ideas. 
 I 
> also find the art in RPG books to be very inspiring, as long as the 
quality 
> isn't so poor that it distracts from the picture itself (I'm part of 
the 
> tiny minority that actually likes the New Millennium art). 
 
Personally, I've found a wealth of useful material in GURPs 
supplements, but the GURPs Supers stuff is kind of at the low end of 
the GURPs material I've gotten - it's a very different feel than 
Champions and this comes through somewhat in te adventures.  On the 
plus side though, I've never found the GURPs rules to be neccessary in 
understanding the supplements. 
 
 
== 
======================================= 
John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing 
list.  http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
======================================= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:02:16 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
At 08:36 PM 1/29/99 -0800, you wrote: 
>[Snippet of example of using the disabling/impairing rules deleted] 
> 
>> How does this seem unrealistic to you?-- 
> 
>It doesn't seem unrealistic. It doesn't seem very genre for a four color 
>superhero game either. 
 
certainly not, but I thought the problem was "Hero gun damage is 
unrealisitic" not "Hero gun damage using optional rules is four color" 
 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:20:59 -0500 
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: dux and stuff 
 
At 07:38 PM 1/30/99 -0800, you wrote: 
>>>I get mine at Bob's Discount Ducks, they throw in a roll of duct tape with 
>>>every mallard. On a game theme: How WOULD you buy duct tape? seriously? 
>> 
>>Cosmic Power Pool :-)  Or possibly an Aid to Body.  Or the ever dreaded 
>>catch all Transformation Attack. 
> 
>Actually I was thinking of Entangle.  Holds the material together, stays in 
>place, once its broken its useless... 
> 
Not useless!  You can wad it up and use it to fill holes. 
I'd buy Duct tape as a gadget pool. 
 
 
============================ 
Geoff Heald 
============================ 
And it's a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages. 
Roving bands of well-paid craftsmen fitted two extra beads to abacuses and 
sorted it out. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:10:14 -0500 
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
 
At 02:05 PM 1/30/99 -0500, you wrote: 
>I was surfing the web this afternoon and discovered a very useful web site - 
>you pick a major city anywhere in the world, and it will show you the 
>effects of a nuclear bomb exploding there. 
> 
What, keeping the URL a secret? 
 
 
>As any good (and Evil) GM would, I started thinking about the applications 
>of this web site to my game.  I know there is LS: Immune to High Radiation. 
>Now, would having this power make a character immune to the radiation 
>effects of a nuclear bomb?  Of course, they can still be killed by the high 
>pressure wave that will tear through the area, but I'm asking specifically 
>about the radiation. 
> 
 
Yes. 
 
 
============================ 
Geoff Heald 
============================ 
And it's a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages. 
Roving bands of well-paid craftsmen fitted two extra beads to abacuses and 
sorted it out. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:53:53 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Other SRPGs as source material? 
 
For anyone who is familiar with the other superhero RPGs out there, can you 
comment on their value as source material in the following areas: 
 
* Ideas for powers 
* Ideas for character disadvantages (always tough for my group to get 150 
points of disads without coming up with some contrived stuff that distorts 
the original character concept..."I'll take a 2nd Hunted and a 3rd DNPC, 
just because otherwise I'll never make it to 150") 
* GM advice (adventure ideas, handling problems and certain 
player/character types, etc). 
 
The two games that have had me wondering are GURPS Supers and Heroes 
Unlimited 2nd Edition.  I don't care how good or bad the rules system is (I 
understand that Palladium (HU2E) really sucks), I'm just looking for 
sources for some fresh ideas.  I own the 1st editions of both Marvel Super 
Heroes and DC Heroes...DC Heroes had some interesting ideas for the first 
two bullets above, but I found Marvel to be pretty much worthless as source 
material for Champions.  Ironic, since I read a lot of Marvel comics but 
don't like DC comics very much at all. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:03:16 -0500 
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: Champs Mailing List 
 
At 01:45 AM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: 
>Hi all, 
>    I'm usually one of the silent listeners and enjoy reading the list but I 
>have a question. Why do I get mail from about 4 different sources? so far I 
>have 7 different filters to get the champs list mail into it's folder but I 
>still get stuff that falls through...Other mailing lists I'm on all comes 
>from one source. Is there something I can do or is it the way the list is 
>handled? I get mail from champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org. 
>champs-l@sysabend.org, among others not to mention that sometimes it in the 
>cc field, to field, from field.... 
>    Is there something I'm missing or are other's having this problem? 
> 
Because the eply To: field is set to the original author, when you hit 
Reply it goes to him instead on the list.  Many people just add a CC: to 
the list.  That explains why it's sometimes in the CC: instead of To:. 
 
I don't use my filters much, so I don't know about the rest. 
 
============================ 
Geoff Heald 
============================ 
And it's a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages. 
Roving bands of well-paid craftsmen fitted two extra beads to abacuses and 
sorted it out. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:50:16 -0800 
From: "Eric Wylie" <erk@halcyon.com> 
Subject: Taking BODY 
 
I'd like to get some feedback on a house rule.  I have included the complete 
text below.  This rule was originally created in a previous campaign by the 
GM.  I personally have no problem with the rule, but have received some 
grumblings from one of my players.  Therefore, I'd appreciate some feedback 
from the list. 
 
Regards, 
Eric 
 
 
 
 
9. Body Damage: If you've taken BODY damage, even if it's been healed, the 
character must come out of play for one Game Session or "Scenario Week" for 
every 3 BODY taken to allow for proper recuperation from your injuries.  If 
the character wants to continue even while trying to recuperate, there'll be 
the following restrictions: 
 
 Any physical exertion the character makes (i.e., using STR, running, 
inherent powers) will be considered to be, for the duration of recuperation, 
on an Activation Roll of 14- (Base).  This Activation will be at a -1 for 
every 3 BODY taken.  In the event the Activation Roll is unsuccessful, the 
character will take 1d6 NND (muscle ache & pain) for every point the roll 
was failed by.  In the event of a fumble on the Activation Roll, that power 
or ability will be considered to be lost for the duration of the run, and 
the recuperation period will be doubled. 
 
In addition, when a character takes BODY damage in combat, they will be 
required to make an EGO roll at -1 for every 2 BODY taken that phase 
(rounding down) before continuing.  If the EGO roll is unsuccessful, it must 
be made on a successive Active Phase before the character can continue to 
operate, or until the character has taken a Recovery.  This is the 
equivalent of pressing forward in spite of your injuries, and will make 
things more realistic, and will apply equally to heroes and villains. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:37:37 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
 
At 09:11 PM 1/30/1999 -0800, John Desmarais wrote: 
>---David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> For anyone who is familiar with Superhero RPGs other than Champions, could 
>> you comment on their value in the following categories? 
>>  
>> * Ideas for powers 
>> * Ideas for character disadvantages (150 points of disads is always hard 
>> for my group to achieve without stretching the concept somewhat..."I guess 
>> I'll be hunted and have a 2nd DNPC, because I don't know how else to get to 
>> 150 points") 
>> * Adventure ideas / GM tips on running a superhero campaign 
>>  
>> The games I have in mind are GURPS Supers and Heroes Unlimited, 2nd 
>> Edition.  I own the 1st editions of both Marvel Super Heroes and DC Heroes, 
>> but haven't looked at them in ages, so I don't know how much I could glean 
>> from them.  Anyway, I always find those two games I mentioned very tempting 
>> from a source material perspective, but I always decide against buying them 
>> (I assume I would also want to buy the GURPS rulebook in order to 
>> understand the stats provided for the powers and whatnot).  I don't really 
>> care how good or bad the rules are, since I don't really want to switch 
>> from Hero (way too much invested in it, financially and intellectually, 
>> plus I just like it).  I'm just looking for sources for fresh ideas.  I 
>> also find the art in RPG books to be very inspiring, as long as the quality 
>> isn't so poor that it distracts from the picture itself (I'm part of the 
>> tiny minority that actually likes the New Millennium art). 
 
Other superhero games I'm aware of: 
 
GURPS Supers, et al - I find GURPS books in general to be a good source of 
raw inspirational or generic reference material.  (When putting together a 
Star Hero campaign last year, I got far more useful material from GURPS 
Space than I did from Star Hero itself.)  The rules are pretty basic and 
intuitive, so you probably don't need the core rulebook unless you want to 
try to do a full GURPS-to-Hero conversion for some of the characters or 
equipment you want to use. 
 
HEROES UNLIMITED - Like GURPS, I find this system to be a decent source of 
raw material.  However, in this case it's limited to inspiration for 
applications of powers, and writeups of equipment.  No adventure hooks 
here, and less general reference than GURPS.  As with GURPS, you won't need 
to be familiar with the core rules unless you plan to do a detailed 
conversion...but with HU, most of the things you might want to look at are 
in the core rulebook anyway.  Character building isn't done like it is in 
GURPS or Hero (it's a level-based game like AD&D), and there are no 
Disadvantages, nor Power Advantages or Limitations. 
 
VILLAINS & VIGILANTES - there are a lot of adventure books, and they're 
cheap.  This system might be good for some adventure plots -- or hooks, 
anyway -- and they're especially good if you happen to be a fan of color, 
cardboard heroes (and vehicles, and animals, and furniture...)  V&V does 
include character Weaknesses (Disads) but they're handled oddly.  For one 
thing, they're listed with the Powers, rather than separately.  Also, 
Powers and Weaknesses are generated by random die roll, then you pick one 
Power to drop.  If you want to drop the Weakness you rolled, you must give 
up a second Power.  The revised edition of the core rules (and perhaps the 
earlier edition as well) contains a fairly detailed breakdown of the Laws 
of the Land, based on the laws of New York State. 
 
SUPER SQUADRON - In layout if nothing else, the core rulesbook was heavily 
influenced by the first edition of the AD&D Player's Handbook.  I don't 
recall anything in the Powers list that isn't available in Hero.  You have 
to remember that Hero is almost unique in its use of elementary powers as 
building blocks for traditional super abilities; most superhero RPGs will 
list various types of energy blast as separate powers, for example.  Super 
Squadron has Dimensional Gate and Time Travel (both Extra-Dimensional 
Movement), Water Breathing and -- get this -- "Non-Requirement of Air" 
(appropriate Life Support), and so on.  The only thing this game *might* 
offer is a few ideas for unusual *applications* of powers that already 
exist in Hero.  Good luck finding a copy of this 16-year-old Australian 
RPG, or either of its supplements. 
 
GUARDIANS - I just picked this up today, in fact.  I haven't had a chance 
to look at it closely, but a couple of things did pop out at me.  The book 
lists an "Adapt" power, which seems to act as a combination Life 
Support/Damage Resistance versus a wide variety of threats...one at a time. 
 You get hit with a laser, your body adapts to become more resistant to 
energy attacks; you get slugged, your body abandons the extra energy 
protection and adapts to become more resistant to kinetic attacks.  You get 
your head shoved underwater for a minute or so, your body drops the extra 
PD and adapts to let you breathe underwater.  Also, Urban Survival as a 
skill:  you know how to survive, find shelter and food in the big city, 
with little or no money.  Measures how well you can survive under primitive 
conditions in an urban setting.  In Hero, you could just allow "Urban Area" 
to be bought as an environment under the standard Survival Skill...but how 
many people have thought of it? 
 
SUPERWORLD - This one's from Chaosium, and uses a format similar to Call of 
Cthulhu.  There are Powers, Skills, Advantages, Limitations and 
Disadvantages, though, which is more like Hero than CoC.  I can't think of 
a single item in any of those categories that isn't already fully covered 
in Hero.  The Chaosium book "Trouble for Havoc" might be a good source for 
adventures, though.  It offers three linked scenarios for Superworld, and 
character stats are given for Champions and Villians & Vigilantes as well.  
 
MACHO WOMEN WITH GUNS - Sure, this is strictly for laughs...but the laughs 
are there.  The core rules provide characters with skills like Run In High 
Heels, Do Technical Stuff, Perform Anatomically Impossible Feat, and Spot 
Obvious.  The "Renegade Nuns On Wheels" supplement adds things like Combat 
Genuflection (okay, it's just a Dodge maneuver).  I imagine SUPERBABES (the 
FemForce RPG) is similar, if less over-the-top, but I haven't seen any of 
those books yet. 
 
Other Superhero RPGs I can't offer any information on right now: 
 
Cosmic Enforcers (Mymidon Press) 
Golden Heroes (Games Workshop) 
Heroes & Heroines (Excel Marketing) 
Justifiers (StarChilde Publications) 
Superhero 2044 (Judges' Guild) 
Tomorrow's Heroes (Plaid Rabbit) 
	...and the DC and Marvel Superhero RPGs 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:22:16 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Champs Mailing List 
 
No, Keldon, that's Just How It Is. Would that it were otherwise, myself; I 
think that this mailing list is the only one I've ever been on that does it 
this way, and I'm not sure why they chose that way.  By the same token, 
whenever you do a simple reply, it sends the reply back to the originator 
and not to the list; to send a message back to the list, you have to do a 
reply to alkl, and edit out the people you don't send it to.  I cannot 
explain the merits of the existing system over the other approach. 
 
Guy 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@NetNitco.net> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:13 AM 
Subject: Champs Mailing List 
 
 
|Hi all, 
|    I'm usually one of the silent listeners and enjoy reading the list but 
I 
|have a question. Why do I get mail from about 4 different sources? so far I 
|have 7 different filters to get the champs list mail into it's folder but I 
|still get stuff that falls through...Other mailing lists I'm on all comes 
|from one source. Is there something I can do or is it the way the list is 
|handled? I get mail from champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org. 
|champs-l@sysabend.org, among others not to mention that sometimes it in the 
|cc field, to field, from field.... 
|    Is there something I'm missing or are other's having this problem? 
| 
|Peace, 
|     Keldon Mor 
|     Keldon@NetNitco.net 
|     http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon 
| 
| 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:05:44 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
Your first statement, after quoting my post,  was "Yet again, we have an 
example of not using the optional rules." followed by a long example of the 
optional rules in play, and ended in "How does this seem unrealistic to you?" 
Given that my post did not deal with the realism or unrealism of the disabling 
rules whatsoever, your post stated my opinion for me and implied I was 
neglecting other approaches where no such advocacy was intended. It's a 
rhetorical approach I resent, even on a manner as trivial as this one. But it's 
also one which can occur by accident in a long thread such as this one, so I 
won't take it too badly. 
 
 There's nothing wrong with the impairing/disabling rules if you don't mind a 
bit of added complexity and bookkeeping and it fits your campaign style. 
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't hurt to list options that 
people may not have considered, such as the reduced BODY option that Carl 
developed, and it shouldn't be assumed that listing them advocates a "one true 
way" or the exclusion of other approaches. One general rule I've noticed over 
the years (which I suspect most veterans of the Hero rules wars will agree): 
given the flexibility of the Hero system, looking for a "one true way" is 
usually an exercise in futility. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
 
Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> At 05:33 PM 1/29/99 -0800, you wrote: 
> >I've also pretty sure I've heard George MacDonald refer to guns as doing 
> about 
> >half the damage they should do if it were "realistic", but that was a long 
> time 
> >ago. 
> > 
> >One thing I've done for Gestalt is steal an idea from Carl Rigney and 
> reduce a 
> >normal's BODY from 8-10 to 5; this allows a pistol shot to leave them 
> dying, but 
> >still keeps the heroes at a pretty tough level. Of course, for campaigns 
> where 
> >you want the supers to compete on a more level playing field with normals, 
> this 
> >may not be a desireable option. 
> 
> Yet again, we have an example of not using the optional rules.  Lets take a 
> D6+1 KA against a regular joe, BOD 8.  This does an average of 4 Body and 8 
> Stun per shot, of which Joe gets not defenses against, owie.  Now lets add 
> in hit locations.  Joe is hit in a normal body shot, the chest (for 
> example) and takes 4 Body and 12 Stun owie, he's stunned.  Add in bleeding, 
> Now Joe takes 2D6 NND every turn, full damage, until paramedics stop the 
> bleeding (and he doesnt move or do anything else to reopen the wound).  Now 
> lets add in Impair/Disable.  Joe took a disabling wound to the chest, 
> losing some stats temporarily (the disabling chart is poorly written, 
> durations should be considerably longer). 
> 
> OK so you just got shot in the chest with a small calibre weapon, stunned, 
> and inactive for 12 seconds.  Each 12 seconds you take on the average 2 BOD 
> and 7 STN, until you die or are patched up (this bleeding accellerates as 
> your BOD total goes down). 
> 
> Now what happens if you are hit in the Head?  The body is doubled to 8 
> (impairing) and the Stun becomes 20.  This knocks Joe totally out, reduces 
> him to 0 BOD and in the rules the GM can rule him simply dead.  Either way, 
> in a few moments he WILL be dead from bleeding.  Unlike what the movies 
> like to portray, it actually does take a while to bleed to death, one 
> almost never dies instantaneously from an attack (especially not bullet 
> holes). 
> 
> How does this seem unrealistic to you? 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Sola Gracia             Sola Scriptura          Sola Fide 
> Soli Gloria Deo         Solus Christus          Corum Deo 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:05:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor) 
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
 
AS both a GURPer and a Rifter The answer is not much. If I hada better 
computer or typing skills I could post most of the semi-original stuff, 
but webtv kicks me off to often. HU2 does give good templates, and has a 
good selection of magic spells and psionics. GURPs has a good world 
background and timeline, reprinted in GURPs IST.  
 
On the otherhand, i suggest expanding your question. GURPS main book has 
more skills then you can use in most campaigns. GURPs Martial arts and 
Psionics are both great books that convert well. Many other GURP books 
have something to offer ( I own about half of the collection. HU2 has 
little support itself. Villain Unlimited makes a good enemy book and 
anyone looking for aliens needs to check out Aliens Unlimited, it lives 
up to its title. The rest of the Pallidium books ( I won't start an 
argument. I own almost all of them ) have many good ideas. If you like 
weapons pick up any rift book. If you like cybernetics HU2, Ninja and 
Superspies, and most Rift books are loaded. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 
has some good ideas. Rifts supports several different magic types. I 
love tattoo magic myself. 
 
Personally I convert GURPs and DC Heroes straight over to champions 
unless they are obviously, not just merely inferior. ( GURPS flight 
rules stink ) I'm still working on the skill conversions. I'm also 
converting Rifts Atlantis to Champions to use as the main villains in a 
PBEM game i want to run next year. 
 
Have you checked out Marvels Ultimate Power book. If anyone wants I can 
post a couple really good Hero Unlimited web addresses 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 18:57:57  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Character: Gandalf The Grey 
 
On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:50:34 +1000, happyelf wrote: 
 
>so i take it you'd never hand out 'distinctive features' for anything other 
>than an individual? no elves, orcs, or hobbits? 
 
If hobbits et al are sufficiently rare. Generally, they aren't. Now, a 
hobbit with a peg-leg would qualify. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 09:38:51  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
 
On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:39:41 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote: 
 
>>I disagree - only if all the items use the *same* OAF does the 
>>Limitation apply. 
> 
>I think it's _utterly_ unsupported by the rules that the slots wouldn't get 
>the limitation.  You don't apply limitation values to slot costs?  W 
 
Actually, I do apply the limitation to the slot cost - see the examples 
I hae posted. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:56:29 -0500 
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com> 
Subject: Re: Taking BODY 
 
Eric Wylie wrote: 
 
> 9. Body Damage: If you've taken BODY damage, even if it's been healed, the 
> character must come out of play for one Game Session or "Scenario Week" for 
> every 3 BODY taken to allow for proper recuperation from your injuries.  If 
> the character wants to continue even while trying to recuperate, there'll be 
> the following restrictions: 
 
It certainly reflects the long-term effect of wounds, but not all genres need 
that level of "realism". What genre were you thinking of? 
 
I also think it might be too harsh. I'm not too keen on keeping characters from 
playing. What would the player do during the sessions his character is healing? 
 
And how does your rule interact with Regeneration? 
 
Mathieu 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:17:58 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
 
>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:39:41 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote: 
> 
>>>I disagree - only if all the items use the *same* OAF does the 
>>>Limitation apply. 
>> 
>>I think it's _utterly_ unsupported by the rules that the slots wouldn't get 
>>the limitation.  You don't apply limitation values to slot costs?  W 
> 
>Actually, I do apply the limitation to the slot cost - see the examples 
>I hae posted. 
 
Then I suspect you didn't mean quite what the section quoted above says. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:17:53 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
>I've also pretty sure I've heard George MacDonald refer to guns as doing about 
>half the damage they should do if it were "realistic", but that was a long time 
>ago. 
> 
>One thing I've done for Gestalt is steal an idea from Carl Rigney and reduce a 
>normal's BODY from 8-10 to 5; this allows a pistol shot to leave them 
dying, but 
>still keeps the heroes at a pretty tough level. Of course, for campaigns where 
>you want the supers to compete on a more level playing field with normals, this 
>may not be a desireable option. 
 
Oh, there are all manner of fixes for it; I've done many of them myself.  I 
don't think it's particularly easy to modify Hero into a really realistic 
game, because the baseline is oriented away from that, but there are 
certainly things you can do to move it significantly more in that 
direction...probably more than sufficient for most people. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:36:40 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
>Your first statement, after quoting my post,  was "Yet again, we have an 
>example of not using the optional rules." followed by a long example of the 
>optional rules in play, and ended in "How does this seem unrealistic to you?" 
>Given that my post did not deal with the realism or unrealism of the 
disabling 
>rules whatsoever, your post stated my opinion for me and implied I was 
>neglecting other approaches where no such advocacy was intended. It's a 
>rhetorical approach I resent, even on a manner as trivial as this one. But 
it's 
>also one which can occur by accident in a long thread such as this one, so I 
>won't take it too badly. 
 
No, I was reacting to your statement: "I've also pretty sure I've heard 
George MacDonald refer to guns as doing about half the damage they should 
do if it were 'realistic'..." which prompted me to show how they WERE 
realistic, if the optional rules were used, but they werent in four color, 
because they arent supposed to be.  I wasnt reacting to YOU, but HIM. 
Sorry if I offended you, this was not my intent, and it was not aimed at 
you in any case.  This is just an example of how the list works, you quote 
he quote that other guy quotes and someone responds to the quoted portions 
irregardless of who said it. 
 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:43:45 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
>Now what happens if you are hit in the Head?  The body is doubled to 8 
>>(impairing) and the Stun becomes 20.  This knocks Joe totally out, reduces 
>>him to 0 BOD and in the rules the GM can rule him simply dead.  Either way, 
>>in a few moments he WILL be dead from bleeding.  Unlike what the movies 
>>like to portray, it actually does take a while to bleed to death, one 
>>almost never dies instantaneously from an attack (especially not bullet 
>>holes). 
>> 
>>How does this seem unrealistic to you?   
> 
>One: one can die a lot faster than the bleeding rules will allow. 
 
But, on the other hand, one can die a lot SLOWER than the bleeding rules 
will allow.  As such the rules seem to be useful, flexible for a range of 
results, but with neither extreme, which are not typically the rule, but 
the exception, wouldn't you agree?  Another thought: perhaps someone who 
died faster from bleeding had a lower BOD (you cant see their character 
sheet after all). 
 
>Two: The rules for death on disable or impair or disable run too far in the 
>other direction. 
 
Im not sure what you mean here. 
 
>Three: The bleeding rules are set up that for the most part, 1-5 Body hits 
>will likely stop themselves long before they kill you, since they only do an 
>extra Body on a 6 (and it will take several to kill you) and they stop on a 
>1.  This is actually even more likely with 6-10; you have 3 chances in 36 to 
>take one extra Body, and 10 chances in 36 to stop bleeding.  You're also not 
>much less likely to die of a penknife wound to the chest than a bullet to 
>the chest. 
 
What do you mean here?  The BOD damage of a penknife wound is much less 
than a bullet, unless its like a .22 pistol round, I watched an episode of 
cops where a guy with 3 bulletholes in his gut drove around looking for the 
guy who shot him with the cops, he was uncomfortable but not in danger, he 
was hardly bleeding.   
 
>Do I really need to continue?  The bleeding, disabling and hit location 
>rules are patches.  Some of them are fairly good ones (the hit location 
>table) some of them rather poor (bleeding).  But none of them do a 
>particularly good job of reflecting reality.  They tend to either mitigate 
>the unrealism of the system, or swing it unrealistic in the other direction 
>(as the death on Impair tends to do, particularly). 
 
The Death in Impair is given as an option to GMs, an option within an 
option (this is used by me to represent guys who drop like a stone in 
movies from a major hit and never get back up).  Thus it is not what I 
would call a set rule nor an example of poor writing, but a way for GMs to 
have a cinematic effect should they so choose. 
 
Note, everyone, Wayne has long been someone who complains about Hero being 
innately impossible to model reality in a believable manner but on the rest 
of Hero I always think he does an excellent job :)  He just needs our help 
to see heheheh sorry Wayne, I couldnt resist 
 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:29:12 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
I see. Not a problem. Thanks Christopher. 
 
Ah, what tangled webs we weave... 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> >Your first statement, after quoting my post,  was "Yet again, we have an 
> >example of not using the optional rules." followed by a long example of the 
> >optional rules in play, and ended in "How does this seem unrealistic to you?" 
> >Given that my post did not deal with the realism or unrealism of the 
> disabling 
> >rules whatsoever, your post stated my opinion for me and implied I was 
> >neglecting other approaches where no such advocacy was intended. It's a 
> >rhetorical approach I resent, even on a manner as trivial as this one. But 
> it's 
> >also one which can occur by accident in a long thread such as this one, so I 
> >won't take it too badly. 
> 
> No, I was reacting to your statement: "I've also pretty sure I've heard 
> George MacDonald refer to guns as doing about half the damage they should 
> do if it were 'realistic'..." which prompted me to show how they WERE 
> realistic, if the optional rules were used, but they werent in four color, 
> because they arent supposed to be.  I wasnt reacting to YOU, but HIM. 
> Sorry if I offended you, this was not my intent, and it was not aimed at 
> you in any case.  This is just an example of how the list works, you quote 
> he quote that other guy quotes and someone responds to the quoted portions 
> irregardless of who said it. 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Sola Gracia             Sola Scriptura          Sola Fide 
> Soli Gloria Deo         Solus Christus          Corum Deo 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:50:27 -0600 (CST) 
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net> 
Subject: Life Support 
 
One of my PC's has recently acquired desolid as a power. 
         
in order to have this though, he needs to have life support.  so he has 
picked that up as well. 
one thing though, he has decided to throw on a limitation to the lif support 
saying that it only works while he is desolid. 
 
So my question is this, how much of a disad would it be for the character? 
 
Life Support: Only when Desolid ???  
 
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/  ....   
	"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?"  ... Real Genius 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:15:07 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99 
 
At 02:34 PM 1/30/99 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>I know it's only January, but does anyone have any info about GenCon for 
>this year?  I will be going for the first time this year, so please, be 
>gentle. :) 
 
   They have a website; I know, because when I was first making plans to go 
this year we did a Web search and found it.  I'm having some trouble with 
my browser right at the moment, but you should be able to do likewise.  :-] 
   (PS: Delays in getting TUV out have all but scrubbed those plans.)  :-( 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:05:37 EST 
From: DVBaum@aol.com 
Subject: capitol patrol 
 
I was wondering if anybody had any info on the Capitol Patrol.  They were 
mentioned in Champions Universe.  I also know that they were featured in some 
convention games.  Unfortunately that is all I know.  If anybody can help me 
out, I would appreciate it.  They seemed like a cool group of heroes. 
 
Derek B 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:05:09 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: Life Support 
 
> in order to have this though, he needs to have life support.  so he has 
> picked that up as well. 
 
	Why does he "need" life support?  It is useful should one want to 
move through, say, solid rock, but the power doesn't require it. 
 
> one thing though, he has decided to throw on a limitation to the lif support 
> saying that it only works while he is desolid. 
>  
> So my question is this, how much of a disad would it be for the character? 
>  
> Life Support: Only when Desolid ???  
 
	How often is he desolid?  If it's a majority of the time, only 
about -1/4.  If it's very rare, -1 or more. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:41:43 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Life Support 
 
At 01:50 PM 1/31/99 -0600, Brats Incorporated wrote: 
>One of my PC's has recently acquired desolid as a power. 
>         
>in order to have this though, he needs to have life support.  so he has 
>picked that up as well. 
>one thing though, he has decided to throw on a limitation to the lif support 
>saying that it only works while he is desolid. 
> 
>So my question is this, how much of a disad would it be for the character? 
> 
>Life Support: Only when Desolid ???  
> 
 
 
A lot of people take Life Support at full price, and it only 
actually does something useful on the occasions when they go 
into space, under water, etc. 
 
For this to be a limitation, you'll have to figure out how  
often the character needs life support when he's not desolid. 
Let's say, for example, that the life support is a self-breathing 
apparatus.  If he gets caught in a vacuum or in poisonous gas 
when he's solid, this life support could not be used.  Is that a 
disadvantage?  I suppose that depends on how easy it is for him 
to simply go desolid in these situations. 
 
Bottom line:  I'd look very suspiciously on such a limitation. 
 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:05:57 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champs Mailing List 
 
At 12:03 AM 1/31/99 -0500, geoff heald wrote: 
>At 01:45 AM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: 
>>Hi all, 
>>    I'm usually one of the silent listeners and enjoy reading the list but I 
>>have a question. Why do I get mail from about 4 different sources? so far I 
>>have 7 different filters to get the champs list mail into it's folder but I 
>>still get stuff that falls through...Other mailing lists I'm on all comes 
>>from one source. Is there something I can do or is it the way the list is 
>>handled? I get mail from champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org. 
>>champs-l@sysabend.org, among others not to mention that sometimes it in the 
>>cc field, to field, from field.... 
>>    Is there something I'm missing or are other's having this problem? 
>> 
>Because the eply To: field is set to the original author, when you hit 
>Reply it goes to him instead on the list.  Many people just add a CC: to 
>the list.  That explains why it's sometimes in the CC: instead of To:. 
 
   Actually it's not always the person's fault.  Sometimes it's a nuance of 
the software. 
   Years ago, when I first joined the list, I was on a board which 
automatically set the person in the incoming From: field into the outgoing 
To: field whether you wanted it that way or not.  I could put "To: 
hero-l@whateveritwas.com" at the top of what I wrote, but instead of 
putting that in the To: field in place of the original author it would just 
CC: it to the list. 
   And then, nobody believed me when I explained that I was doing it that 
way; they insisted that I was intentionally double-replying, and assumed 
that I had a choice in the matter. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #174 
***************************** 


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