Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 175

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 12:12 AM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #175 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Monday, February 1 1999        Volume 01 : Number 175 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: GenCon 99 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Champs Mailing List 
    Martial artist power 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Life Support 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Martial artist power 
    Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
    Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
    Re: Taking BODY 
    Re: capitol patrol 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Shadowrun Magic to Hero system ? 
    RE: Champs Mailing List 
    RE: Martial artist power 
    Re: dux and stuff 
    Re: A painful question 
    Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
    Re: Martial artist power 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Taking BODY 
    Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
    Re: Martial artist power 
    Re: A painful question 
    Re: Martial artist power 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:36:36 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99 
 
At 07:15 AM 1/31/1999 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 02:34 PM 1/30/99 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>>I know it's only January, but does anyone have any info about GenCon for 
>>this year?  I will be going for the first time this year, so please, be 
>>gentle. :) 
> 
>   They have a website; I know, because when I was first making plans to go 
>this year we did a Web search and found it.  I'm having some trouble with 
>my browser right at the moment, but you should be able to do likewise.  :-] 
 
Search engines can be weird things.  I tried searching on "gencon" and 
mostly got sites for Gencon Plastics; I added "Lake Geneva" to the search 
and it did start pulling in pages that at least mentioned GenCon...for 
previous years.  I added "1999" to the mix and started getting hits for 
GenCon *1998* (conclusion: the Y2K problem will have retroactive effects).   
 
I finally found what looked like a decent site for last year's con, then 
manually changed the part of the URL that referred to the year.  That 
brought up a site none of the search engines had noticed: 
 
http://www.andonunlimited.com/CONS/GEN99/ 
 
This site is slow-loading and at least some of the links seem to go back to 
their pages on the '98 Con.  I think this is really just a shell waiting 
for this year's information. 
 
The TSR page that tells you what conventions WotC is attending this year -- 
doesn't even *mention* GenCon! 
 
Damon 
 
  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:05:09 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
>>Now what happens if you are hit in the Head?  The body is doubled to 8 
>>>(impairing) and the Stun becomes 20.  This knocks Joe totally out, reduces 
>>>him to 0 BOD and in the rules the GM can rule him simply dead.  Either way, 
>>>in a few moments he WILL be dead from bleeding.  Unlike what the movies 
>>>like to portray, it actually does take a while to bleed to death, one 
>>>almost never dies instantaneously from an attack (especially not bullet 
>>>holes). 
>>> 
>>>How does this seem unrealistic to you?   
>> 
>>One: one can die a lot faster than the bleeding rules will allow. 
> 
>But, on the other hand, one can die a lot SLOWER than the bleeding rules 
>will allow.  As such the rules seem to be useful, flexible for a range of 
>results, but with neither extreme, which are not typically the rule, but 
>the exception, wouldn't you agree?  Another thought: perhaps someone who 
>died faster from bleeding had a lower BOD (you cant see their character 
>sheet after all). 
 
The difference in Body scores isn't big enough to represent the difference. 
And your other point just reinforces mine; no, it isn't particularly realistic. 
 
> 
>>Two: The rules for death on disable or impair or disable run too far in the 
>>other direction. 
> 
>Im not sure what you mean here. 
 
Just what I said; that they tend (particularly the death on impair) to make 
the game unrealisitically _lethal_. 
 
> 
>>Three: The bleeding rules are set up that for the most part, 1-5 Body hits 
>>will likely stop themselves long before they kill you, since they only do an 
>>extra Body on a 6 (and it will take several to kill you) and they stop on a 
>>1.  This is actually even more likely with 6-10; you have 3 chances in 36 to 
>>take one extra Body, and 10 chances in 36 to stop bleeding.  You're also not 
>>much less likely to die of a penknife wound to the chest than a bullet to 
>>the chest. 
> 
>What do you mean here?  The BOD damage of a penknife wound is much less 
>than a bullet, unless its like a .22 pistol round, I watched an episode of 
>cops where a guy with 3 bulletholes in his gut drove around looking for the 
>guy who shot him with the cops, he was uncomfortable but not in danger, he 
>was hardly bleeding.   
 
Then the bleeding rules aren't a representation of what you're talking 
about.  That's part of the problem with them.  And the minimum damage on a 
small firearm and a penknife are about the same, but any wound in the 1-5 
range bleeds the same. 
 
> 
>>Do I really need to continue?  The bleeding, disabling and hit location 
>>rules are patches.  Some of them are fairly good ones (the hit location 
>>table) some of them rather poor (bleeding).  But none of them do a 
>>particularly good job of reflecting reality.  They tend to either mitigate 
>>the unrealism of the system, or swing it unrealistic in the other direction 
>>(as the death on Impair tends to do, particularly). 
> 
>The Death in Impair is given as an option to GMs, an option within an 
>option (this is used by me to represent guys who drop like a stone in 
>movies from a major hit and never get back up).  Thus it is not what I 
>would call a set rule nor an example of poor writing, but a way for GMs to 
>have a cinematic effect should they so choose. 
 
Actually, it happens in reality, too.  Just not too often with small arms, 
particularly handguns.  And we weren't talking about whether a rule was good 
or not; we were talking about whether it was realistic.  Those aren't the 
same thing.  A good rule serves it's intended purpose; a bad rule doesn't. 
One can only asses that on realism levels if realism is one's intent.  The 
death on impair _isn't_ realistic, however; it suffers from the opposite 
problem the system is usually heir to, which is to say that it is _too_ 
lethal.  If using the death on impair unmodified, especially in connection 
with hit location, it can be hard to hit anyone with a normal range without 
killing them instantly.  This is over and above my personal dislike for 
rules that apply unequally to PCs and NPCs. 
 
 
> 
>Note, everyone, Wayne has long been someone who complains about Hero being 
>innately impossible to model reality in a believable manner but on the rest 
>of Hero I always think he does an excellent job :)  He just needs our help 
>to see heheheh sorry Wayne, I couldnt resist 
 
No offense taken.  But I'll note I'm hardly alone in that position. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:38 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Champs Mailing List 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@NetNitco.net> 
> To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:13 AM 
> Subject: Champs Mailing List 
>  
> |Hi all, 
> |    I'm usually one of the silent listeners and enjoy reading the 
list but 
> I 
> |have a question. Why do I get mail from about 4 different sources? 
so far I 
> |have 7 different filters to get the champs list mail into it's 
folder but I 
> |still get stuff that falls through...Other mailing lists I'm on all 
comes 
> |from one source. Is there something I can do or is it the way the 
list is 
> |handled? I get mail from champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org. 
> |champs-l@sysabend.org, among others not to mention that sometimes 
it in the 
> |cc field, to field, from field.... 
> |    Is there something I'm missing or are other's having this 
problem? 
 
Ok, the rundown on the multiple sources. 
 
Prior to my taking over the list it was host by Geoff Speare at 
<omg.org>.  When  the switch from Geoff to me took place, Geoff set up 
a .forward to the new address and some people still ahve the old 
<omg.org> address in the address books. 
 
During the many years that the list has existed, it has had several 
names; so when I set up the list on <sysabend.org> I set it up under 
the name <champ-l> with two aliases <hero-l> and <champs-l> to make 
things easier for people. 
 
The upshot of this is that you can send mail to the list by addressing 
it to <champ-l@sysabend.org&> <champs-l@sysabend.org&> 
<hero-l@sysabend.org&> and (until the account is deleted off of 
Geoff's old office computer) <champ-l@omg.org&> <champs-l@omg.org> (I 
think), and <hero-l@omg.org> - but the REAL address is 
<champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
 
 
== 
======================================= 
John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing 
list.  http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
======================================= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:20:31 -0500 
From: "Marc" <games@nassau.cv.net> 
Subject: Martial artist power 
 
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Hi. 
I am working on a Martial Artist.  A defenceive based M.A. 
I gave him.  Desolid.  (Not thgout Solds or flow through cracks).  The = 
special effect is that he twists, Turns, Sidesteps, and other maneuvers = 
that avoid contact. 
 
He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect powers. 
 
Any comments on the power? 
 
_________________________________________________________________________= 
_____________________________________ 
IN CHARACTER.  Home of my characters and soon (or later) my BPEM = 
campaign 
 
HTTP://www.liii.com/~dragon 
 
 
 
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<HTML> 
<HEAD> 
 
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = 
http-equiv=3DContent-Type> 
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>I am working = 
on a Martial=20 
Artist.&nbsp; A defenceive based M.A.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I gave him.&nbsp; Desolid.&nbsp; (Not thgout Solds = 
or flow=20 
through cracks).&nbsp; The special effect is that he twists, Turns, = 
Sidesteps,=20 
and other maneuvers that avoid contact.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect = 
 
powers.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Any comments on the power?</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20 
size=3D2>________________________________________________________________= 
______________________________________________<BR>IN=20 
CHARACTER.&nbsp; Home of my characters and soon (or later) my BPEM=20 
campaign</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20 
href=3D"http://www.liii.com/~dragon">HTTP://www.liii.com/~dragon</A></FON= 
T></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:24:48 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
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"q" == qts  <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
q> Doesn't seem quite right, does it, that he can use the MP 100 times and 
q> still get the 'One Charge' Limitation? It doesn't Limit the MP! 
 
Does not seem quite right that you are using a Multipower when by all 
rights you should be using a Variable Power Pool, so I cannot buy the 
comparision that you make. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:29:39 +0800 
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au> 
Subject: Re: Life Support 
 
I personally would just use th dreaded Linked (-1/2) and leave it at that. 
 
******************************************************** 
Colin Clark 
This .sig left intentionally blank 
http://www.iinet.net.au/~astroboy 
******************************************************** 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 4:30 AM 
Subject: Life Support 
 
 
>One of my PC's has recently acquired desolid as a power. 
> 
>in order to have this though, he needs to have life support.  so he has 
>picked that up as well. 
>one thing though, he has decided to throw on a limitation to the lif 
support 
>saying that it only works while he is desolid. 
> 
>So my question is this, how much of a disad would it be for the character? 
> 
>Life Support: Only when Desolid ??? 
> 
>Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/  .... 
> "In the words of Socrates... I drank what?"  ... Real Genius 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:30:53 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
 
WS> And one guy who really didn't mean it as harshly as he took it.  I 
WS> didn't think there was anything wrong with his adding rules to make 
WS> Hero do what he wanted.  I just wanted to emphasize that the basic 
WS> design _was_ cinematic. :P 
 
Yes, the basic design is cinematic.  Gun damage can be disturbingly 
realistic if you use all the optional stuff (especially the hit location 
table), but the basic system is still cinematic.  Because of that, grafting  
on more mechanics to make it more realistic is just going to bog things 
down in totally unnecessary ways.  If you want a playable system with a 
more accurate damage scale, try Phoenix Command, or the original 
incarnation of Cyberpunk, the version with the original Friday Night 
Firefight. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:48:14 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: Martial artist power 
 
> I am working on a Martial Artist.  A defenceive based M.A. 
> I gave him.  Desolid.  (Not thgout Solds or flow through cracks).  The special effect is that he twists, Turns, Sidesteps, and other maneuvers that avoid contact. 
>  
> He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect powers. 
>  
> Any comments on the power? 
 
	Besides the fact that many people really don't like this 
construction?  Nope.  It's actually in The Ultimate Martial Artist, so 
it's nothing new.  Just be prepared for another battle on the list over 
it. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:41:48 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
 
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"LH" == Lisa Hartjes <beren@unforgettable.com> writes: 
 
LH> I know there is LS: Immune to High Radiation.  Now, would having this 
LH> power make a character immune to the radiation effects of a nuclear 
LH> bomb? 
 
Um, yes. 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:40:36 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
 
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"h" == happyelf  <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> writes: 
 
h> hence: seven-in-one is a limt on the mp pool, seven ones is the limt on 
h> each slot, not the pool? 
 
Exactly. 
 
h> There is a minor advantege to seven in one- damage.  If the focus is 
h> tougher due to higher ap, small er powers wil be better protected. 
 
Um, not really.  Foci are fairly brittle to begin with: DEF is the active 
cost of the largest power in the Focus divided by 5.  For a 60-point 
reserve, regardless of how many slots it has its DEF is going to be a 
maximum of 12.  And regardless of how many slots it has its Body is always 
going to be 1. 
 
Which means that the 7-in-1 is more fragile than 7-in-7.  7-in-1 has 12 DEF 
(for example) and 1 Body, whereas 7-in-7 has 7 powers each with up to 12 
DEF and 1 Body.  7-in-1 can be entirely destroyed by a single attack that 
does 13 Body; 7-in-7 would require 7 separate attacks (or a couple of big 
Autofire attacks) doing up to 13 Body each. 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:46:49 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Taking BODY 
 
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"EW" == Eric Wylie <erk@halcyon.com> writes: 
 
EW> 9. Body Damage: If you've taken BODY damage, even if it's been healed, 
EW> the character must come out of play for one Game Session or "Scenario 
EW> Week" for every 3 BODY taken to allow for proper recuperation from your 
EW> injuries. 
 
See ya, I'll go play in someone else's game. 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:19:02 -0500 
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca> 
Subject: Re: capitol patrol 
 
At 04:05 PM 1/31/99 EST, you wrote: 
>I was wondering if anybody had any info on the Capitol Patrol.  They were 
>mentioned in Champions Universe.  I also know that they were featured in some 
>convention games.  Unfortunately that is all I know.  If anybody can help me 
>out, I would appreciate it.  They seemed like a cool group of heroes. 
> 
I've wondered about these characters myself; I've never seen them in any 
official supplement, just a couple of brief mentions in CU and other things. 
 
Glen 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:23:24 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
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"h" == happyelf  <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> writes: 
 
h> It isn't an exception. if you place a limt on that pool (only use 4 
h> times, only in rain) and the limt comes into effect (no rain, used four 
h> times) then all the slots don't work. 
 
But that is *NOT* what is in the book.  By the book, if you put a 
limitation on the reserve, that limitation is also applied to the slots. 
No modifiers to that is ever mentioned in the book.  Which means if you put  
x2 END on the reserve, you put x2 END on the slots.  If you put OIF on the 
reserve, you put OIF on the slots.  If you put 1 Turn Extra Time on the 
reserve, you put 1 Turn Extra Time on the slots.  If you put 14- Activation  
with Burnout on the reserve, you put 14- Activation with Burnout on the 
slots. 
 
If you put 4 Charges on the reserve, you put 4 Charges on the slots.  That 
is strictly by the book. 
 
If Charges breaks, it is Charges that is broken and needs to be fixed. 
Making an exception is not fixing the problem, it is covering it up. 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ head. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 19:45:05 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Magic to Hero system ? 
 
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"KM" == Keldon Mor <Keldon@NetNitco.net> writes: 
 
KM> Actually with SR3, the drain isn't fixed anymore... Combat spells have a 
KM> drain based on the damage level cast. Cast a Deadly force spell, resist a 
KM> Deadly force drain, Light force, Light Drain, etc. 
 
Nice change, makes things a lot simpler.  Guess I now have a reason to pick 
up the new edition. 
 
KM> Casting area affect spells kicks the drain level up one or force up two 
KM> for deadly spells...  Casting that Force 8 Deadly Manaball sure takes 
KM> care of things, you among them. (drain=10D) 
 
I once played a Sorcery Adept that actually could cast a spell like that 
without killing himself.  Of course, magic was about all he could do. :) 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:23:12 -0800 
From: "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net> 
Subject: RE: Champs Mailing List 
 
I am probably speaking out of place, but maybe I could just say: 
 
Aren't people on this list bright enough to use ONE address for this list????  Is it really necessary to cater to the dolts who either can't figure it out, or are too lazy to try?  I for one would be very glad for a single email address to send to (and receive from) rather than the "old baggage" and "convenience-doting" that's going on here?  Aren't Champions gamers smart enough to be told what the ONE address for the list is going to be...and then use JUST THAT ONE??? 
 
OK...I'm done now.  Thanks.  I feel much better.  ;-) 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:23:13 -0800 
From: "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net> 
Subject: RE: Martial artist power 
 
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    I gave him.  Desolid.  (Not thgout Solds or flow through cracks).  The 
special effect is that he twists, Turns, Sidesteps, and other maneuvers that 
avoid contact. 
 
    He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect powers. 
 
    Any comments on the power? 
 
 
    Desolid takes this guy out of the fight offensively, though.  I designed 
a "ghost" once that simply had an obscene amount of PD and KB Resistance, 
with the special effect that anything that didn't exceed his PD seemed to 
"pass through him."  You could try something like this as well, if Desolid 
is going to get in the way of his taking action.  Otherwise desolid is fine 
for this use...as approved by the GM. 
 
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    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I gave him.&nbsp; Desolid.&nbsp; (Not thgout = 
Solds or flow=20 
    through cracks).&nbsp; The special effect is that he twists, Turns,=20 
    Sidesteps, and other maneuvers that avoid contact.</FONT></DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>He can get hit with mental powers and area fo = 
effect=20 
    powers.</FONT></DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Any comments on the power?<SPAN=20 
    class=3D460331801-01021999><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial = 
size=3D2>=20 
    <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20 
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    class=3D460331801-01021999><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial = 
size=3D2>Desolid takes=20 
    this guy out of the fight offensively, though.&nbsp; I designed a=20 
    &quot;ghost&quot; once that simply had an obscene amount of PD and = 
KB=20 
    Resistance, with the special effect that anything that didn't exceed = 
his PD=20 
    seemed to &quot;pass through him.&quot;&nbsp; You could try = 
something like=20 
    this as well, if Desolid is going to get in the way of his taking=20 
    action.&nbsp; Otherwise desolid is fine for this use...as approved = 
by the=20 
    = 
GM.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:30:57 +0000 
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net> 
Subject: Re: dux and stuff 
 
Duct Tape is like The Force: 
    It has a Light Side, a Dark Side and it holds the universe together! 
 
Gary 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:09:25 -0800 (PST) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: A painful question 
 
Greetings! 
 
     Okay... there's no way anyone can blame this on time zones! 
 
     The attached message from Scott Bennie arrived in my Rocketmail box dated 
Feb. 26th, 1999. And, I just have one question. 
 
 
 
 
     Scott, do you have any advice concerning Lotto numbers for the coming 
month? Pretty please?!? 
 
Dale A. Ward 
 
- ---Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> wrote: 
> 
> Just want to thank everyone who's responded to this thread - with a 
<MAIN MESSAGE SNIPPED> 
>And maybe one day I'll try to write a more general article on the subject. 
>  
> Scott Bennie 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:49:06 +0000 
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net> 
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material? 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
> For anyone who is familiar with the other superhero RPGs out there, can you 
> comment on their value as source material in the following areas: 
> 
> * Ideas for powers 
> * Ideas for character disadvantages (always tough for my group to get 150 
> points of disads without coming up with some contrived stuff that distorts 
> the original character concept..."I'll take a 2nd Hunted and a 3rd DNPC, 
> just because otherwise I'll never make it to 150") 
> * GM advice (adventure ideas, handling problems and certain 
> player/character types, etc). 
 
I have found that some of the best adventure ideas are some of the better 
Villains and Vigilantes adventures. Plus, every adventure for V&V has at least 
two pages of cut-apart cardboard counters in full-color of heroes, villains, 
vehicles, etc. I now have dozens of counters to use for agents, villains, 
police cars... 
 
IMHO, the best V&V adventures include: 
 
    Search for the Sensei 
    Secret in the Swamp 
    F.O.R.C.E. 
    For the Greater Good 
    The Great Con Game 
 
All of these have interesting characters and interesting adventures. 
 
Be warned...many of the villain collections (similar to the Enemies books for 
Champions) have really _goofy_ villains. Not all of the supplements, but a 
majority. 
 
Gary 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:31:44 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Martial artist power 
 
> 
> I am working on a Martial Artist.  A defensive based M.A. 
> I gave him.  Desolid.  (Not thgout Solds or flow through cracks).  The 
> special effect is that he twists, Turns, Sidesteps, and other maneuvers that 
> avoid contact. 
>   
> He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect powers. 
>   
> Any comments on the power? 
 
 
 
This has come up before, alert the Rat heheheh. 
 
Personally I dont like it because you are using a special power as a defensive 
power, but its Champs, you can model almost anything with anything.  If you 
allow it in your game thats fine :)  I personally prefer to use the powers 
that 
are written for a specific purpose rather than use another power to model 
them.  Why not buy the 12 skill levels a 0 END cost Desolid would purchase and 
be unhittable then?  If this seems gross or overpowered for the campaign, 
perhaps the desolid is too? 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:28:29 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
>>>>How does this seem unrealistic to you?   
>>> 
>>>One: one can die a lot faster than the bleeding rules will allow. 
>> 
>>But, on the other hand, one can die a lot SLOWER than the bleeding rules 
>>will allow.  As such the rules seem to be useful, flexible for a range of 
>>results, but with neither extreme, which are not typically the rule, but 
>>the exception, wouldn't you agree?  Another thought: perhaps someone who 
>>died faster from bleeding had a lower BOD (you cant see their character 
>>sheet after all). 
> 
>The difference in Body scores isn't big enough to represent the difference. 
>And your other point just reinforces mine; no, it isn't particularly 
realistic. 
 
It reinforces your point that the bleeding rules are unrealistic when they 
believably model reality the majority of the time? 
 
>>What do you mean here?  The BOD damage of a penknife wound is much less 
>>than a bullet, unless its like a .22 pistol round, I watched an episode of 
>>cops where a guy with 3 bulletholes in his gut drove around looking for the 
>>guy who shot him with the cops, he was uncomfortable but not in danger, he 
>>was hardly bleeding.   
> 
>Then the bleeding rules aren't a representation of what you're talking 
>about.  That's part of the problem with them.  And the minimum damage on a 
>small firearm and a penknife are about the same, but any wound in the 1-5 
>range bleeds the same. 
 
Actually to me that negates your complaint that you stop bleeding too 
easily at low levels and that bullet damages are too similar to knife 
wounds.  A small wound is a small wound, whether its caused by a pitchfork, 
a forklift or a pinecone.  The source of the damage is insignificant if the 
trauma is similar (energy causes different effects like cauterization, acid 
damages differently than a spoon, but a knife and bullet do similar kinds 
of damage for this argument). 
 
>>>Do I really need to continue?  The bleeding, disabling and hit location 
>>>rules are patches.  Some of them are fairly good ones (the hit location 
>>>table) some of them rather poor (bleeding).  But none of them do a 
>>>particularly good job of reflecting reality.  They tend to either mitigate 
>>>the unrealism of the system, or swing it unrealistic in the other direction 
>>>(as the death on Impair tends to do, particularly). 
>> 
>>The Death in Impair is given as an option to GMs, an option within an 
>>option (this is used by me to represent guys who drop like a stone in 
>>movies from a major hit and never get back up).  Thus it is not what I 
 
>>would call a set rule nor an example of poor writing, but a way for GMs to 
>>have a cinematic effect should they so choose. 
> 
>Actually, it happens in reality, too.  Just not too often with small arms, 
 
So you are saying that this rule is realistic at least on some level? 
 
>particularly handguns.  And we weren't talking about whether a rule was good 
>or not; we were talking about whether it was realistic.  Those aren't the 
>same thing.  A good rule serves it's intended purpose; a bad rule doesn't. 
>One can only asses that on realism levels if realism is one's intent.  The 
>death on impair _isn't_ realistic, however; it suffers from the opposite 
 
So you are saying it isnt realistic on any level?  Im confoozed. 
 
>problem the system is usually heir to, which is to say that it is _too_ 
>lethal.  If using the death on impair unmodified, especially in connection 
>with hit location, it can be hard to hit anyone with a normal range without 
>killing them instantly.  This is over and above my personal dislike for 
>rules that apply unequally to PCs and NPCs. 
 
Like I pointed out, its an option to an option, hardly enforced, I use it 
unrealistically to eliminate downed little guys that dont matter or to 
reward a spetacular hit.  In addition, the PCs are playing a GAME and thus 
the point is to have fun, and being dropped by a lucky hit isnt fun unless 
you are playing Paranoia heheh.  This is neither here nor there, but I 
always hated critical hits for this reason. 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:53:37 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: Taking BODY 
 
> EW> 9. Body Damage: If you've taken BODY damage, even if it's been healed, 
> EW> the character must come out of play for one Game Session or "Scenario 
> EW> Week" for every 3 BODY taken to allow for proper recuperation from your 
> EW> injuries. 
>  
> See ya, I'll go play in someone else's game. 
 
	Ah, not me.  I'll take regen. 
	 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:52:30 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage 
 
> LH> I know there is LS: Immune to High Radiation.  Now, would having this 
> LH> power make a character immune to the radiation effects of a nuclear 
> LH> bomb? 
>  
> Um, yes. 
 
	Unless, of course, the Nucular Bomb radiation attack wasn't bought 
with "not vs LS: Radiation."  Of course, all attacks like this should be 
bought with such a limitation. 
 
	Don't necessarily blame the system if something doesn't make 
sense--sometimes it requires just a bit of common sense from the GM. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 31 Jan 1999 22:45:36 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Martial artist power 
 
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
"M" == Marc  <games@nassau.cv.net> writes: 
 
M> Any comments on the power? 
 
Try +8 DCV (40 AP).  Aside from fitting your special effects, it sidesteps 
all the other problems inherent in abusing Desolidification in this 
fashion. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:41:01 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: A painful question 
 
Unfortunately, debasing the timeline for such personal gain would cause such 
destruction that it would make the Y2K bug pale by comparison! Well, almost. 
 
Excuse me, Masseuse #7, would you scratch a little lower? And tell Mr. Gates that 
he can take the rest of the night off once he's finished refueling the yacht and 
installing the latest version of Linex-99 on my system... 
 
Ah, the good life... 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
Dale Ward wrote: 
 
> Greetings! 
> 
>      Okay... there's no way anyone can blame this on time zones! 
> 
>      The attached message from Scott Bennie arrived in my Rocketmail box dated 
> Feb. 26th, 1999. And, I just have one question. 
> 
>      Scott, do you have any advice concerning Lotto numbers for the coming 
> month? Pretty please?!? 
> 
> Dale A. Ward 
> 
> ---Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > Just want to thank everyone who's responded to this thread - with a 
> <MAIN MESSAGE SNIPPED> 
> >And maybe one day I'll try to write a more general article on the subject. 
> > 
> > Scott Bennie 
> 
> _________________________________________________________ 
> DO YOU YAHOO!? 
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:12:34 -0600 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Martial artist power 
 
At 03:20 PM 1/31/99 -0500, Marc wrote: 
> I am working on a Martial Artist.  A defenceive based M.A. 
> I gave him.  Desolid.  (Not thgout Solds or flow through cracks). The 
> special effect is that he twists, Turns, Sidesteps, and other maneuvers 
> that avoid contact. 
> 
> He can get hit with mental powers and area fo effect powers. 
> 
> Any comments on the power? 
 
What's your 3 Senses? Desolid isn't Persistent, and therefore is *visible*. 
Your GM may not accept "he dodges really good" as "Vision group", since it's 
not necessarily obvious to an opponent when you're using the power or not 
(i.e. it has to be distinct from a mundane dodge). And that only covers your 
proverbial butt for one sense -- still need a +3/4 Invisible Effects 
Advantage. Assuming a -1 limitation for stripping the Desolid's "passwall" 
benefits, that leaves you with 35 Real points, spending 7 END per phase. 
 
Also, you get the wierdness of Affects Desolid attacks suddenly neutralizing 
your dodging effectiveness ... but I consider that a flaw of the advantage, 
not the construction. 
 
Compare to combat levels -- for about the same price, you can get: 
a)      +7 DCV at all times. 
b)      +10 DCV, Costs END (-1/2) 
b)      +12 DCV with Block, Dodge, and Escape. 
 
The first option alone would leave even a normal scrub (DEX 10) at 
better-than-even odds against the "average" superhero (DEX 23, according to 
the BBB) ... and one would assume a martial artist will typically have a 
HIGHER than average DEX for the campaign. Any of these options (esp. the 
last) would make a martial artist of otherwise typical construction /nearly/ 
untouchable ... and the "nearly" is a plus in and of itself, because it's 
the absolute nature of Desolid that's going to draw the most criticism from 
a potential GM (and/or folks on this list ;]) -- barring true 
insubstantiality, there ought to be SOME chance of hitting the character, 
with sufficiently high skill. (Or so a GM might reason.) 
 
- -- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- attributed to Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #175 
***************************** 


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