From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 9:56 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #182 
 
 
champ-l-digest       Wednesday, February 3 1999       Volume 01 : Number 182 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: teleporting through water pipes?! 
    Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: <FHList> Necromacy Limitation / Fantasy World 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
    Re: GenCon 99  
    Re: How much damage should guns do. 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: GenCon 99  
    Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:32:56 -0000 
From: "Phil Dack" <philipd@intonet.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: teleporting through water pipes?! 
 
> The character may be able to move freely through water-filled or empty 
> pipe, but he won't be able to move through a valve that is, after all, 
> designed to prevent water flow.  You might want to figure out a way to 
> translate the character's STR to a p.s.i. value to determine how much water 
> pressure he's capable of extering from inside the pipe; that will determine 
> whether he can burst a pipe or push past a valve in order to escape 
> confinement. 
>  
 
Surely whilst teleporting it isn't possible for the water elemental character 
to  
exert ANY water pressure. If I understand correctly the power is as follows: 
 
1. Teleporting 
2. Only between places connected by the water system, as if travelling 
through them. 
 
Teleporting: "disappear from one point and appear at another, without 
traveling 
in between" is the 4th Ed definition. 
 
It may be, of course, that you've included a requirement that the route not 
only be covered by the water system but that it is subject to physical 
blockages as well.  To my mind, however, this is fundamentally changing the 
nature of the teleport power and the player should instead just buy running 
w. non-combat multiples. 
 
In general, though, responding to Tod's point: 
 
>I let him just buy teleport with a limitation only through water pipes 
>(based on the teleport through wires that Dynamo has in San Angelo), 
>which was just fine as long as he was using it for silly stuff like 
>making his grand entrance by jumping out of drinking fountains and 
>stuff... but then I experienced the down side... he can basically get in 
>ANYWHERE he wants to.. who guards their water pipes? 
 
YES!  That's the whole thing with Teleport - you CAN get anywhere with it.  
So, unless you plan putting power inhibitors all around town, or make every 
wall 'hardened' you should be very VERY careful with this power.  I think the 
rulebook errs in not putting a caution mark next to it. 
 
One way around it - travel through water pipes includes covering the 
necessary distance.  It may be that a pipe doesn't follow the most obvious 
route - the main water main may well be several metres underground, so moving 
from, for example, first floor lavatory to second floor impregnible science 
lab may involve going all the way underground and back again.  If it's too 
much to make in one go, it can't be done with Teleport (you can't teleport 
halfway one round and half the next, unless he can survive in one-inch thick 
pipes (variation on desolid?)). 
This gives you the ultimate GMs fiat - for normal purposes don't worry, but 
if they have a secure location, they are probably going to have a link direct 
to the water main for safety's sake.  These people are used to living in a 
world of superheroes, remember. 
 
Phil Dack 
 
p.s. This is my first ever post on this list after many years away from 
roleplaying.  If I've made some fundamental cock up, please be gentle with 
me! 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 03 Feb 1999 14:31:25 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
 
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
 
WS> You're missing my point, Rat.  Active Points are the base cost of an 
WS> ability with all Advantages.  To me, that describes the slot cost of a 
WS> given slot in a multipower just as much as it does the pool. 
 
If you go that route, then a slot of a 60-point Multipower will be at best 
1 DEF.  Foci are brittle enough as it is without going here. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:27:00 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:58 AM 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
 
>>*cough cough* it's only one guy *cough cough* 
> 
>And one guy who really didn't mean it as harshly as he took it.  I didn't 
>think there was anything wrong with his adding rules to make Hero do what 
he 
>wanted.  I just wanted to emphasize that the basic design _was_ cinematic. 
:P 
> 
 
yes but remember now, you're actually wrong about that. 
'cinematic' is a catch-all term used when the equally catch-all 
'realistic' is not being used. It's very severly redundant. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:42:40 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 8:49 AM 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
 
> 
> 
>>>Sorry, but I was quite serious.  If he wants a game where the default 
>>>assumptions are realistic rather than cinematic, he _is_ playing the 
wrong 
>>>game.  That's not the Hero System. 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>name one game closer in general to achieving that goal. he's got the best 
>>bet in general 
>>with the hero system, just becaus he's talking default weapons lists 
doesn't 
>>mean he's 
>>playing the wrong game. 
> 
>If he can't stand a fundamentally cinematic approach to weapon damage and 
>combat in the underlaying system, which seemed to be what he was saying, 
I'd 
>say that's incorrect. 
 
that's a very distant rationale. Remember, you're the one making the 
expansive commentary here. 
Also, there's nothing fundamentally cinematic about it, it's by deffinition 
not fundamental to the system,. 
 
> He might well be better off with something like, say, 
>CORPS. 
> 
 
nothing. there *is* no realistic system, imhho. yer best bet is an 
easiuly tweakable system that you can adapt to you own needs 
and jugement of the issue. 
 
>>>And this relates to what I said in what fashion. 
>>> 
>> 
>>you mentioed str as an example of an unrealism. this is an example 
>>of how you can counteract that and make strength more realistic. 
> 
>But that's not the _base system_.  He specifically mentioned he wanted the 
>base system to be realistic, and toggled for genre. 
 
the _base system_ is not the base stats the base system is the ide of 
customisation. 
full stop. 
 
> That's _not_ the Hero 
>System.  The base system is cinematic and toggled for genre.  That's all 
>I've _ever_ been trying to say. 
> 
 
that you can't grasp my point suttgests more of a perspective than you 
claim. 
 
>>>And you'll notice these are none of them in the base rules.  i never said 
>>>the Hero System couldn't be mutated into something non-cinematic...i said 
>>it 
>>>wasn't designed that way as a base assumption. 
>>> 
>> 
>>but the issue remains- its closer than anyhting else, via that 'mutation'. 
> 
>Actually, I disagree.  But it would be a much longer issue to pursue than 
>I'm intending to follow.  In any case, it has nothing much to do with the 
>point I was making. 
> 
 
yes it does. and you're wrong, customisation is the way- 
and no, gurps and fuzion do not compare, sorry! 
 
>> 
>>not really. you just have to say 'oh, i shold use a genre-customisation 
>>method instead' 
>>not much grief really. 
> 
>Again, I disagree. 
> 
 
 
read the sentence again. it's not high on the grief index. 
 
>> 
>>no, it's not designed to be cinematic. it's designed to be customisable. 
>>if it was cinematic, points total would be based on cast importance as 
>>opposed to abstract power refrence, ect, ect, ect. The word 'cynematic' is 
>>wayyy overused. 
> 
>I'm sorry, but you're essentially incorrect; it was designed as a superhero 
>game, and really very lightly modified over time comparitively. 
 
Wrong. it's designed to be a multigeneric game, used to shape whatever 
effect you want- 
superheroics are by far the most widely varied characters in a given genre. 
For your preconceptions to function accuratly, the reality of the hero 
system's 
flexibility would have to be challenged, and it is the most flexible, or 
equal  first 
on a VERY bad day. 
 
>  It simply 
>came before the idea of that heavy a hand in enforcing cinematic convention 
>was common, but it was built to model a very stylized type of setting (the 
>superhero game) and that's still what the core rules are based around. 
 
stylised? the superheric genre is one of the most varied ever! Name one 
popular genre less stylised? 
variation in combat ability, power level, agenda, all of this is fully 
realised in the original version. 
You simply have the typical view of certain genres that have more to do with 
genre preconceptions than genre itself. 
 
> If 
>you don't like the term 'cinematic' in this context, feel free but I've 
>heard Steve Peterson use the same term for it. 
> 
 
Hmm, I could care less. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 20:46:16  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: <FHList> Necromacy Limitation / Fantasy World 
 
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:25:20 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
 
>Hello Fantasy Hero Players / GMs 
> 
>I am trying to put together my own campaign world, and have run into a 
>question.  I am not sure what value to give to the following Necromantic 
>Limitation. 
> 
>Caster must kill at least 1 Body pip of creatures per 5 points of the spells 
>active cost. 
 
I'd give it a -1/4 - don't forget you'll also be getting the benefits 
of an Expendable Focus. 
 
Why only -1/4? Because most of the problems associated with it are 
subsumed into the Focus Limitation (qv discussion on Foci in various 
Hero books). 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 03 Feb 1999 14:42:11 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
 
WS> If that was the only Limitation that had this problem, I'd agree.  It 
WS> isn't.  Burnout suffers from exactly the same problem, as does Extra 
WS> Time. 
 
Only if you insist that the limitations restrict the usefulness of the 
reserve, which is, bluntly, wrong.  Extra Time does not make it take longer 
to switch slots, it makes it take longer to use the powers in the slots. 
Burnout does not mean that the reserve fails, it means that the powers in 
the slots fail. 
 
Why do you insist that Charges be treated differently?  Because of the 
bonuses?  Yes, there is a clear discrepancy between number of charges and 
the corresponding bonus.  That discrepancy is made blatant by Multipower, 
but Multipower is not the root cause. 
 
No, I do not know a good way to fix Charges without breaking its legacy 
into a bazillion pieces. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:20:45 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>Yes, the basic design is cinematic.  Gun damage can be disturbingly 
>realistic if you use all the optional stuff (especially the hit location 
>table), but the basic system is still cinematic.  Because of that, grafting 
>on more mechanics to make it more realistic is just going to bog things 
>down in totally unnecessary ways.  If you want a playable system with a 
>more accurate damage scale, try Phoenix Command, or the original 
>incarnation of Cyberpunk, the version with the original Friday Night 
>Firefight. 
 
yeah right 
'ohh, look at me! i have a kevlar blankie and nobody can hurt me! 
oh, and animal kung fu can actually kill people!' 
 
realism is a myth, nobody agrees on what it is. better to have a 
system oyu can tweak to suit what you think of as realistic. 
As for bogging down, it's just spending points, same as always. 
 
 
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>-- 
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:24:19 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:53 AM 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
 
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>"h" == happyelf  <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> writes: 
> 
>h> It isn't an exception. if you place a limt on that pool (only use 4 
>h> times, only in rain) and the limt comes into effect (no rain, used four 
>h> times) then all the slots don't work. 
> 
>But that is *NOT* what is in the book.  By the book, if you put a 
>limitation on the reserve, that limitation is also applied to the slots. 
>No modifiers to that is ever mentioned in the book. 
 
modifier? it applies! it happens! if x happens, it happens in response. 
 
> Which means if you put 
>x2 END on the reserve, you put x2 END on the slots.  If you put OIF on the 
>reserve, you put OIF on the slots.  If you put 1 Turn Extra Time on the 
>reserve, you put 1 Turn Extra Time on the slots.  If you put 14- Activation 
>with Burnout on the reserve, you put 14- Activation with Burnout on the 
>slots. 
> 
 
what if oyu roll burnout on a single slot? what if you take a slot focus 
away? 
imhho, both would negate the whole framework- IF the limtation was bought on 
the 
pool. 
 
>If you put 4 Charges on the reserve, you put 4 Charges on the slots.  That 
>is strictly by the book. 
> 
 
 
yes. you put 4 charges on the slots. not 4 charges on each slot. 
 
>If Charges breaks, it is Charges that is broken and needs to be fixed. 
>Making an exception is not fixing the problem, it is covering it up. 
 
 
it's not an exception. it's a mroe logical interpetation. 
 
 
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>-- 
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and 
cover 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ head. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 03 Feb 1999 16:33:46 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
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"h" == happyelf  <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> writes: 
 
h> yeah right 
h> 'ohh, look at me! i have a kevlar blankie and nobody can hurt me! 
 
Tell that to a FA-MAS in either system.  It might even help (but I doubt 
it).  That was a nice thing about the original FNFF: characters hit by 
combat weapons go down and stay down. 
 
h> oh, and animal kung fu can actually kill people!' 
 
Ever hear the phrase, 'bludgeoned to death'? 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:24:04 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
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>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
> 
>WS> You're missing my point, Rat.  Active Points are the base cost of an 
>WS> ability with all Advantages.  To me, that describes the slot cost of a 
>WS> given slot in a multipower just as much as it does the pool. 
> 
>If you go that route, then a slot of a 60-point Multipower will be at best 
>1 DEF.  Foci are brittle enough as it is without going here. 
 
Depends on the slot, but I just consider that the trade off for doing the 
multipower thing. No one holds a gun at their head and makes them choose to 
treat those as seperate foci; if they do that's part of the price. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:31:42 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99  
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
> 
> I know we can't really fight it.  My major reaction has always 
>been to wonder whether or not the Wargamers felt the same way when RPGs 
>first hit it big. 
> 
> 
 
 
*cough cough* games workshop? It's not like that- 
it's just ccg's are expensive, as is gw, and rpg's are cheap. 
Rpg's don't make mony of twonks who think their collection 
is going to be worth somethig someday, or people 
who almost perfectly quit the idea of having more dollars then sense. 
I men, ccg's took a chunk out ff marvel becasue they were running the same 
scam, 
and it hit the sports cards too- we're talking about a cash cow here, and 
one which 
i'd call a little bit. . questionable in certain contexts. 
 
So of course we have less money. but that's aprt fo the charm. You can rp 
forever 
with one rule book and a group- hell thrown in ths mail list and oyu have 
all you'll even need. 
What, one book a year? What other pastime is that cool, but that cheap? 
 
> -Tim Gilberg 
> -"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:26:11 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:58 AM 
>Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do. 
> 
> 
>>>*cough cough* it's only one guy *cough cough* 
>> 
>>And one guy who really didn't mean it as harshly as he took it.  I didn't 
>>think there was anything wrong with his adding rules to make Hero do what 
>he 
>>wanted.  I just wanted to emphasize that the basic design _was_ cinematic. 
>:P 
>> 
> 
>yes but remember now, you're actually wrong about that. 
>'cinematic' is a catch-all term used when the equally catch-all 
>'realistic' is not being used. It's very severly redundant. 
 
Actually, I don't agree.  There is a middle ground between games designed 
with a deliberately cinematic bias and those designed to be realistic.  It 
is a continuum, and I think having a term for which end of the spectrum a 
game runs to is indeed useful. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:39:16 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
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>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
> 
>WS> If that was the only Limitation that had this problem, I'd agree.  It 
>WS> isn't.  Burnout suffers from exactly the same problem, as does Extra 
>WS> Time. 
> 
>Only if you insist that the limitations restrict the usefulness of the 
>reserve, which is, bluntly, wrong.  Extra Time does not make it take longer 
>to switch slots, it makes it take longer to use the powers in the slots. 
>Burnout does not mean that the reserve fails, it means that the powers in 
>the slots fail. 
 
And we're right back to the Limiters limiting the effect of the multipower 
less than they would an individual power, then, especially with the Burnout. 
 
> 
>Why do you insist that Charges be treated differently?  Because of the 
>bonuses?  Yes, there is a clear discrepancy between number of charges and 
>the corresponding bonus.  That discrepancy is made blatant by Multipower, 
>but Multipower is not the root cause. 
 
I insist on it because to do otherwise produces stupid results.  When 
someone could build a multipower with identical slots that's more attractive 
than the individual power, something is wrong.  That's true with both the 
Charges and the Burnout, and that tells me there's a problem with the 
multipower, since this occurs nowhere else, not even with the other two 
Frameworks. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:51:40 -0600 (CST) 
From: gilberg@ou.edu 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99  
 
>*cough cough* games workshop? It's not like that- 
>it's just ccg's are expensive, as is gw, and rpg's are cheap. 
 
        GW?  Not really wargames, in my opinion.  More like 
Battletech--Miniatures Lite. 
 
        I'm talking about the downturn by most wargames, miniature or not. 
You still see them at cons, but it is a rapidly aging and slowly-shrinking 
group of people.  Is this the fate that will befall RPGers? 
 
 
>with one rule book and a group- hell thrown in ths mail list and oyu have 
>all you'll even need. 
>What, one book a year? What other pastime is that cool, but that cheap? 
 
        Sure, depending on the game.  Hell, most "real" Wargamers go ahead 
and write their own version of the "perfect" rules for their era--and while 
miniatures are nice, cardboard squares do just fine. 
 
        For cards?  You can play with a starter deck, I guess.  Slasher, the 
one I mentioned earlier, is just that single purchase, and that's for the 
entire group playing. 
 
        But for the real idea of economical gaming?  Chess--nothing needed 
at all. 
 
        I'll take white, someone follow along.   
         
        1) d2-d4 
 
 
 
                                                -Tim Gilberg 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:27:36 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans as 
heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain characteristic 
concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the infamous "eggshells 
with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector. 
 
On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is 
possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to 
stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than 50/50 
chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly physically 
normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing them 
to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the 
hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises. 
 
On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give him a 
human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first good Haymaker 
from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by being hit just 
once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by spitting 
hard on him. 
 
On the third hand, if Rogue, for example ever truly let lose on Cyclops, it 
is generally understood that she could pulp him. He couldn't just stand in 
front of her, say, "Let me have it!", brace himself, and expect to live 
through the punch, and she is far from a heavy hitter in the brick 
department. 
 
So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are powers 
that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against Juggernaut and 
still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that claim 
to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't slaughter them, 
without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_ slaughter 
them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they survive as 
superheroes. 
 
For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when target 
can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of Severe Injury. 
This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to avoid 
serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's unconscious, 
but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed his "Dive for 
Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get partial cover 
before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it missed 
the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on. 
 
Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have no 
resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no effect on 
normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem to hit 
him solidly enough, even when he does get shot. 
 
Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
 
Filksinger 
 
- --Lysdexia is a terrisease dibble. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:57:55 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
 
 
>>possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to 
>>stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than 
50/50 
>>chance of taking no BODY damage. 
> 
>Isn't dynamite a killing explosion? 
 
No. 
 
>(shouldn't it be?) 
 
 
Maybe. The point still remains. In order to survive, superheroes in most 
games will have superhuman PD, by quite a bit. People who are effectively 
immune to being killed with a baseball bat, for example, no matter how long 
you beat them with it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 03 Feb 1999 19:49:44 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
 
WS> And we're right back to the Limiters limiting the effect of the 
WS> multipower less than they would an individual power, then, especially 
WS> with the Burnout. 
 
Then maybe *ALL* limitations on Multipower reserves should be worth some 
fraction of their total bonus, not just Charges. 
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=i8m5 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 03 Feb 1999 20:03:02 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
 
Ummm... a lot of effort for something that should never be allowed to be a 
problem in the first place. 
 
If a mosquito lands on your arm, do you smash it with a haymaker, or do 
swat it with a tiny fraction of your strength?  Juggernaut would never use 
his full strength against Cyclops; he would swat Cyclops the way you or I 
would swat that mosquito. 
 
And the best thing of all is that you don't need to fudge any game 
mechanics to do it. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ head. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:13:54 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
I have no problems with using Luck as a SFX to give additional defenses or even 
armor. I did so with "Johnny", a talented normal type in Steve Perrin's old 
campaign, and in retrospect I wish I had given the same type of armor to Seeker 
when I did the high-end version of that character for Champions Universe; it 
would have ended a lot of pointless arguments on that character's survivability. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans as 
> heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain characteristic 
> concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the infamous "eggshells 
> with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector. 
> 
> On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is 
> possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to 
> stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than 50/50 
> chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly physically 
> normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing them 
> to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the 
> hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises. 
> 
> On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give him a 
> human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first good Haymaker 
> from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by being hit just 
> once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by spitting 
> hard on him. 
> 
> On the third hand, if Rogue, for example ever truly let lose on Cyclops, it 
> is generally understood that she could pulp him. He couldn't just stand in 
> front of her, say, "Let me have it!", brace himself, and expect to live 
> through the punch, and she is far from a heavy hitter in the brick 
> department. 
> 
> So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are powers 
> that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against Juggernaut and 
> still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that claim 
> to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't slaughter them, 
> without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_ slaughter 
> them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they survive as 
> superheroes. 
> 
> For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when target 
> can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of Severe Injury. 
> This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to avoid 
> serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's unconscious, 
> but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed his "Dive for 
> Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get partial cover 
> before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it missed 
> the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on. 
> 
> Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have no 
> resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no effect on 
> normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem to hit 
> him solidly enough, even when he does get shot. 
> 
> Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> --Lysdexia is a terrisease dibble. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:39:44 (-0600) 
From: Robert Rutherford <mirage@dhc.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:27:36 -0800, 
"Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> wrote about Normal Men as Superheroes: 
[SNIP] 
 
I personally like the basic eggshell approach to normal humans.  Normal humans 
shouldn't be able to stand up an let the likes of Durak hit them without 
getting killed. 
 
> So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are powers 
> that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against Juggernaut and 
> still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that claim 
> to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't slaughter them, 
> without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_ slaughter 
> them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they survive as 
> superheroes. 
> 
> For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when target 
> can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of Severe Injury. 
> This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to avoid 
> serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's unconscious, 
> but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed his "Dive for 
> Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get partial cover 
> before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it missed 
> the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on. 
> 
> Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have no 
> resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no effect on 
> normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem to hit 
> him solidly enough, even when he does get shot. 
> 
> Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
A  much simpler solution for the 'normal' superhero to not get killed in one 
shot by a high end paranormal, buy more body. 
+10 BODY, 20 points, works for physical and energy attacks.  With 20 Body and 
8 PD /ED the character should be able to survive one shot, from most attacks. 
 
Later 
 
 
- -- 
+-----------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ 
|Rob Rutherford               | Always do sober what you said you'd do    | 
|                             | drunk. That will teach you to keep your   | 
|A.K.A. mirage                | mouth shut.                               | 
|E-mail                       |                                           | 
|mirage@dhc.net               |  --Ernest Hemingway                       | 
+-----------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:52:50 -0600 
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
This seems like you are emulating one element of heroic luck 
other elements are plot devices that allow a hero to go for a walk 
and just coincidently find the bad guys or atleast the clue 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans as 
> heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain characteristic 
> concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the infamous "eggshells 
> with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector. 
> 
> On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is 
> possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to 
> stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than 50/50 
> chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly physically 
> normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing them 
> to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the 
> hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises. 
> 
> On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give him a 
> human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first good Haymaker 
> from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by being hit just 
> once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by spitting 
> hard on him. 
> 
> On the third hand, if Rogue, for example ever truly let lose on Cyclops, it 
> is generally understood that she could pulp him. He couldn't just stand in 
> front of her, say, "Let me have it!", brace himself, and expect to live 
> through the punch, and she is far from a heavy hitter in the brick 
> department. 
> 
> So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are powers 
> that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against Juggernaut and 
> still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that claim 
> to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't slaughter them, 
> without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_ slaughter 
> them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they survive as 
> superheroes. 
> 
> For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when target 
> can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of Severe Injury. 
> This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to avoid 
> serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's unconscious, 
> but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed his "Dive for 
> Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get partial cover 
> before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it missed 
> the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on. 
> 
> Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have no 
> resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no effect on 
> normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem to hit 
> him solidly enough, even when he does get shot. 
> 
> Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> --Lysdexia is a terrisease dibble. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:09:33 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes: 
> 
>WS> And we're right back to the Limiters limiting the effect of the 
>WS> multipower less than they would an individual power, then, especially 
>WS> with the Burnout. 
> 
>Then maybe *ALL* limitations on Multipower reserves should be worth some 
>fraction of their total bonus, not just Charges. 
 
Well, Charges and Burn-Out are the only ones I know of that when applied 
globally, seem to limit less on a multipower than they do on a normal power. 
Activation is pretty much as big a pill on a Multipower as anywhere else, 
for example; same for Increased Endurance, because no matter how many slots 
do it, it still comes from the same Endurance.  Someone had it right; the 
problem with Charges (and Burnout) is much the same as the old saw about 
making one slot only work during the day and one work only at night; in 
theory they're both equally limiting, but as soon as you can go use one when 
the other doesn't work, in practice they aren't. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:16:01 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames? 
> 
>Ummm... a lot of effort for something that should never be allowed to be a 
>problem in the first place. 
 
 
I have never seen a game where it _wasn't_ a problem. Take a look at the 
various Hero Games suppliments. Show me how many people with supposedly 
fairly normal physiques actually have a PD/ED in the NCM range, without FF, 
Armor, or DR to keep them alive when the inevitable superhero level smash 
hits? 
 
>If a mosquito lands on your arm, do you smash it with a haymaker, or do 
>swat it with a tiny fraction of your strength?  Juggernaut would never use 
>his full strength against Cyclops; he would swat Cyclops the way you or I 
>would swat that mosquito. 
 
 
Really? Enough STR to splat him flat, eh? That kind of creates the problem I 
was worried about, doesn't it? 
 
Before you tell me, "He should be showing restraint", keep in mind that most 
PCs in the Hero System do not routinely pull their punches when trying to 
stop supervillians, however normal they appear. And why do you suppose the 
villain would always pull his punces. Suppose Juggy was trying to _kill_ 
Cyclops? 
 
Ever have this happen? Someone designs a superhero whose description makes 
him a very fast and hard to hit person, but with only normal defenses, at 
best. You give him an 8 PD/ED, which is fairly high, given the character 
described. 
 
Said hero goes up against Titan One. TO is having trouble hitting him, and 
is using his full 70 STR, so that when he connects, the hero will go down. 
So, the hero leaps from atop a wall at his head, TO finally connects, does 
16 BODY, produces 12" knockback into a wall only 5" away, producing another 
12 BODY, and the martial artist ends up _dead_. 
 
The very first character I ever created was designed to be a very quick 
martial artist. I decided to test the character, so I put him against Ogre. 
It worked fine, until Ogre connected _once_ and sent him straight into 
negative BODY land. 
 
And before you tell me he should have had higher PD/ED, the comics are full 
of characters who survive for _years_ without high defenses, nothing but 
speed and cunning, and often only human level speed and cunning. Cyclops 
would have died years ago in a typical Champions game, with his minimal 
defenses _and_ normal human DCV. Many Energy Projectors in the Marvel 
Universe have a similar problem. In HERO, everyone buys them FF. 
 
When was the last time you tried to run a superhero whose only DEF, Damage 
Reduction, etc., were ordinary PD and ED, in NCM range, and he relied upon 
DCV, Dodge, Block, and Rolling with the Punch? And how long did he live? 
 
>And the best thing of all is that you don't need to fudge any game 
>mechanics to do it. 
 
 
Fudge? Let me guess, I have somehow violated your idea of how the HERO 
System is "supposed to be played" again? 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #182 
*****************************