Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 183
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 1:26 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #183
champ-l-digest Thursday, February 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 183
In this issue:
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: teleporting through water pipes?! - the result
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: GenCon 99
Re: teleporting through water pipes?!
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: teleporting through water pipes?!
RE: <FHList> The Necrotron
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheores
Fwd: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:38:49 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>realism is a myth, nobody agrees on what it is. better to have a
>system you can tweak to suit what you think of as realistic.
>As for bogging down, it's just spending points, same as always.
I always have preferred the term 'believable' because realism isnt really
what most people actually want in a game (reality is why we PLAY games,
cause it blows). If something is believable, given certain prepositions
about the setting (fantasy uses magic, etc) then it is fun and comfortable
for everyone.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 03 Feb 1999 22:51:19 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Before you tell me, "He should be showing restraint", keep in mind that
F> most PCs in the Hero System do not routinely pull their punches when
F> trying to stop supervillians, however normal they appear.
Supervillains aren't normals, and this fact usually shows rather quickly.
That said, most heroes should treat apparant normals as normals until they
learn otherwise. That is a genre convention that dates back at least as
early as Superman. Those that do not are not particularly heroic, and will
probably screw themselves over by 'accidentally' killing a villain who
really is just a normal guy.
F> And why do you suppose the villain would always pull his punces.
Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
full strength.
F> Suppose Juggy was trying to _kill_ Cyclops?
It is a convention of genre. Cyclops will *NEVER* find himself in a boxing
match with Juggernaut. Something will happen to prevent that from
happening. Or something will happen to even the odds a bit.
[...]
F> Said hero goes up against Titan One. TO is having trouble hitting him, and
F> is using his full 70 STR, so that when he connects, the hero will go down.
F> So, the hero leaps from atop a wall at his head, TO finally connects, does
F> 16 BODY, produces 12" knockback into a wall only 5" away, producing another
F> 12 BODY, and the martial artist ends up _dead_.
I played a character exactly like that, and exactly that happened. My
character was totally out-classed. I knew this. But I was stupid, he was
stupid, and we paid for it. The fault was mine, not the GM's and not the
system's. If you insist on playing a character with defenses that are
significantly below what the campaign calls for (ie, 8 DEF in a 12DC
campaign), do not blame the system for that character's death when you or
he does something stupid.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:46:28 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans as
>heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain characteristic
>concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the infamous "eggshells
>with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector.
>
>On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is
>possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to
>stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than 50/50
>chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly physically
>normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing them
>to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the
>hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises.
>
>On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give him a
>human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first good Haymaker
>from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by being hit just
>once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by spitting
>hard on him.
>
>On the third hand, if Rogue, for example ever truly let lose on Cyclops, it
>is generally understood that she could pulp him. He couldn't just stand in
>front of her, say, "Let me have it!", brace himself, and expect to live
>through the punch, and she is far from a heavy hitter in the brick
>department.
Comics do that a lot, Spiderman is strong enough to lift ten TONS, thats
with a T, as in 20,000 pounds, as in 5 cars stacked on top of each other.
Yet he punches Doc Octopus in a massive haymaker, which makes doc fly
back... and reconsider his strategy. Cyke would die like a dog in any game
(although their uniforms are armored, probably 8-10 PD) because he is
simply a poorly armored gun emplacement. Thats just one of those things in
comics (Storm has NO demonstrable PD, she got clocked by a sling bullet in
one comic, but it NEVER happens unless its a plot device, hell one comic
had her in front of like 15 people sort of cringing as they all got
shredded by this wierd shuriken throwing spinning loser from the Marauders).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 04:14:25 GMT
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:16:01 -0800, "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> sent
these symbols into the net:
<stuff snipped>
>When was the last time you tried to run a superhero whose only DEF, Damage
>Reduction, etc., were ordinary PD and ED, in NCM range, and he relied upon
>DCV, Dodge, Block, and Rolling with the Punch? And how long did he live?
Speaking canonically, (or whatever) Cyclops *should* have armor bought as
OIF (costume). All X-uniforms are armored even if they look skin-tight,
except in the case of a character who doesn't need armor. Spider-Man is a
different case, and IMO should have Damage Reduction (SFX: luck) and
possibly Missile Deflection (SFX: evades missiles). There's also an
unwritten rule in comic-book land that an the accuracy of an attack is
inversly proportional to its Lethality. Thus, a mega-blast capable of
blowing holes thru questonite walls can seldom be made to hit a target much
smaller than said walls, whilst a banana-cream pie rarely misses.
**********************************************************************
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.*
* Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter. *
**********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:05 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
<mass snipage>
>The very first character I ever created was designed to be a very quick
>martial artist. I decided to test the character, so I put him against Ogre.
>It worked fine, until Ogre connected _once_ and sent him straight into
>negative BODY land.
Ogre's only got a 12d6 punch, either your characters pd and body were
_really_ low, or Ogre rolled a 3, or haymakered (or possably hit a good
location (or rolled a 3 while haymakering and hit the head, 32 body taken
by a character with an 8 PD yuck)).
>And before you tell me he should have had higher PD/ED, the comics are full
>of characters who survive for _years_ without high defenses, nothing but
>speed and cunning, and often only human level speed and cunning. Cyclops
>would have died years ago in a typical Champions game, with his minimal
>defenses _and_ normal human DCV. Many Energy Projectors in the Marvel
>Universe have a similar problem. In HERO, everyone buys them FF.
<more snipage>
>Filksinger
Characters in comics survive for years not with human levels of defense and
speed, but because the writers don't want to kill them off (or somtimes
because the fans love them and despite the writers wanting to kill them).
In comic books the writers have 100% control over what happens (ok, given
Marvels editors this isn't true, but play along with me), what this means
is that unless the writer wants Cyclops pounded into meat Juggs just dosn't
get to hit him (and Juggs can connect with spider man) heck usually Juggs
isn't ever near Cyclops as he's to busy fighting collossus or rouge, double
heck even Dazzler managed to go toe to toe with Juggernaught (ok so it was
during a period that the X-men sucked, and he did beat her unconcsious and
bury her thinking she was dead, but the point is she got back up, dug
herself out, thanked her mutant metabolism, and went on)
If you have 100% control of what happens in your game then building Cyclops
as a 18 Dex guy with 6 PD and nothing else works fine and is a good model
of what the character is really like. The instant you lose any control
(like rolling dice forinstance) he's dead meat.
This is an issue that had troubled me for years (Look at the avengers, Iron
Man and Hawkeye on the same team, how does _that_ work anything that will
annoy Iron Man will pulp Hawkeye), and I've come up with 2 solutions,
A) Let the normals have better defenses, (Cyclops has one of thoes
Mutant Metabolism thingies, that'll justify a 10 PD and a 15 or so body,
and what kind of shmuck is going to put himself in harms way year after
year with out geting some sort of armor so lets give him a 5pd 5ed Armor
OIF: Suit, oh and for 10 points, +5 with Martial Dodge)
B) Give the Players some way of soaking Body damage, the rolling
with the punch maneuver works will for this (and to make it better let it
work on ranged attacks, and without the -2 OCV penalty (at that point it
should probably be Body only)), institute some sort of brownie point system
(the player does something I like they get a brownie point, one brownie
point can adjust any roll by one or it can negate 5 points of incoming Body
damage)
Max Callahan
(unwholsome thought, Cyclops is a pretty good martial artist, perhaps he
has Ranged martial arts maneuvers bought usable with his eyebeams, he has
put in enough danger room time to justify developing such a thing, and hey,
that makes disarms using his eyebeams really easy to do)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 00:36:08 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
At 10:51 PM 2/3/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Before you tell me, "He should be showing restraint", keep in mind that
>F> most PCs in the Hero System do not routinely pull their punches when
>F> trying to stop supervillians, however normal they appear.
>
>Supervillains aren't normals, and this fact usually shows rather quickly.
>That said, most heroes should treat apparant normals as normals until they
>learn otherwise. That is a genre convention that dates back at least as
>early as Superman. Those that do not are not particularly heroic, and will
>probably screw themselves over by 'accidentally' killing a villain who
>really is just a normal guy.
>
>F> And why do you suppose the villain would always pull his punces.
>
>Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
>full strength.
>
>F> Suppose Juggy was trying to _kill_ Cyclops?
>
>It is a convention of genre. Cyclops will *NEVER* find himself in a boxing
>match with Juggernaut. Something will happen to prevent that from
>happening. Or something will happen to even the odds a bit.
Rat, you're assuming two things. First, that everyone plays the way
you would like them to, which is manifestly not true; and second, that
the PC will always be the 'normal' in question. If I ran a Cyclops-like
NPC villain, you may sure that the players would use -all- their strength,
genre or no, and be mightily upset if I told them that the genre required
less.
Filk, I like you ideas and may well use them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He reached that middle height, and at the stars,
Which are the brain of heaven, he looked and sank.
Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
The army of unalterable law."
George Meredith, Lucifer in Starlight
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 01:45:23 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@home.com>
Subject: Re: teleporting through water pipes?! - the result
Okay, as requested by someone a while back, Im going to post what I decided
to do with the 'teleport through water pipes' problem.
Thanks alot for all the suggestions, I discussed all the options with the
player in question, and this is what we decided on:
He already had 20" of swimming, with x8 non-combat, and he had desolid with a
limitation of not through air(water)-tight... so, we just scratched the whole
teleport thing, and I'm letting him 'swim' through water pipes while he's
desolid. Also, he still has to deal with the issue of water shut-off valves,
etc (he cant go through a faucet unless the water is running, for example)
It's not perfect, but it works to the satisfaction of both player and GM, so
I guess thats what counts, right?
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 00:02:01 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Filksinger wrote:
> From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
>
> >>possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to
> >>stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than
> 50/50
> >>chance of taking no BODY damage.
> >
> >Isn't dynamite a killing explosion?
>
> No.
>
> >(shouldn't it be?)
>
> Maybe. The point still remains. In order to survive, superheroes in most
> games will have superhuman PD, by quite a bit. People who are effectively
> immune to being killed with a baseball bat, for example, no matter how long
> you beat them with it.
>
> Filksinger
Actually, in my campaign long ago, a martial artist named Aikido was pretty
annoying. She was fast (dex 30 spd 7), low attacks (6-8dc) and 10/10 pd/ed. She
had an "auto throw" that I allowed because she had so few other attacks. Using
levels and Martial dodge or block, she almost never got hit. She certanly never
was hit by a brick or anything like that and she was played for over a year.
The only two memorable losses for her were 1) Mentalla turned her against the
team she beat half of them. 2) she tried to throw the Blob, he just lifted her
of the ground and looked at her. Then he punched her through a wall. I've known
martial artists to rely on some interesting abilites to defend themselves but
to be truthful I give all "normal" Heroes armored costumes. It just makes sense
unless they just can't afford it conceptually.
Chad
"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:04:31 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: GenCon 99
gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
> But for the real idea of economical gaming? Chess--nothing needed
> at all.
>
> I'll take white, someone follow along.
>
> 1) d2-d4
Okay. b8-c6
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:11:29 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: teleporting through water pipes?!
Todd Hanson wrote:
>
> Okay.. I have a really wierd player. (I think every GM has had to deal
> with this player at one time or another).
>
> He is playing a water elemental, and he wants a variation on the old
> 'teleport through wires' that electrical based characters have - he
> wants to be able to teleport (swim) through water pipes.
>
> I let him just buy teleport with a limitation only through water pipes
> (based on the teleport through wires that Dynamo has in San Angelo),
> which was just fine as long as he was using it for silly stuff like
> making his grand entrance by jumping out of drinking fountains and
> stuff... but then I experienced the down side... he can basically get in
> ANYWHERE he wants to.. who guards their water pipes?
I believe he would have a problem with taps. Unless the tap is open,
he would not be able to move from the pipe to the basin.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:30:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Acid Rainbow wrote:
> Spider-Man is a
> different case, and IMO should have Damage Reduction (SFX: luck) and
> possibly Missile Deflection (SFX: evades missiles).
SFX for both of those as well as his high DCV is his Spider-Sense - he had
a lot of trouble fighting Venom because the symbiote didn't set off the
spider-sense. At least..that's what I /think/ I remember...
> There's also an
> unwritten rule in comic-book land that an the accuracy of an attack is
> inversly proportional to its Lethality. Thus, a mega-blast capable of
> blowing holes thru questonite walls can seldom be made to hit a target much
> smaller than said walls, whilst a banana-cream pie rarely misses.
Heh. Unless, of course, the target can take the hit (that mega-blast vs.
Superman). Hmmm...mandatory OCV adjustment based on the power of the
attack vs. the defense level...interesting...probably too slow to run
with, unfortunately. Champs combat doesn't need anything /else/ to slow
it down.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:27:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
On 3 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> And why do you suppose the villain would always pull his punces.
>
> Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
> full strength.
Replace Juggernaut with an enraged Hulk, then. I don't think the Hulk is
thinking anything but 'Hulk SMASH!' when he's berserk, and he's /not/
going to be using less than his full strength. C'mon, when he misses and
hits the ground, we've got shattered slabs of concrete and other assorted
craters.
> F> Suppose Juggy was trying to _kill_ Cyclops?
>
> It is a convention of genre. Cyclops will *NEVER* find himself in a boxing
> match with Juggernaut. Something will happen to prevent that from
> happening. Or something will happen to even the odds a bit.
Now this I can agree, but the thought needs to be expanded upon a bit. As
the GM, you've got the position mostly like the writer of the comic book,
setting up the situation...so yes, you should avoid setting up the
situation so that Cyke gets himself squished. The problem is twofold:
1) You don't have complete control - the characters are acting of their
(or rather their player's) own free will.
2) If you constantly make sure 'something happens' to the opposition to
make it a 'fair fight', the PCs are going to catch on and probably abuse
it, or try to.
So, suggestions on making it work?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 22:42:00
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:37:26 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>If you need to make an exception for Charges, I resubmit that Charges is
>>the problem, not Multipower.
>
>If that was the only Limitation that had this problem, I'd agree. It isn't.
>Burnout suffers from exactly the same problem, as does Extra Time. That
>tells me it's a framework problem, not a problem with the Limitation.
I fail to see that it's a problem at all - it's one of the advantages
of the Hero System which enables you to model just about anything. If
you apply the Limitation to the MP, then that Limitation affects the
whole MP. If your MP has a Burnout which kicks in, then the whole MP is
Burned Out; if it's just the Powers within the MP, then it's just that
one Power which gets Burned Out.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 22:51:57
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: teleporting through water pipes?!
On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:40:30 -0600, Todd Hanson wrote:
>Okay.. I have a really wierd player. (I think every GM has had to deal
>with this player at one time or another).
>
>He is playing a water elemental, and he wants a variation on the old
>'teleport through wires' that electrical based characters have - he
>wants to be able to teleport (swim) through water pipes.
Sounds pretty cool.
>I let him just buy teleport with a limitation only through water pipes
>(based on the teleport through wires that Dynamo has in San Angelo),
>which was just fine as long as he was using it for silly stuff like
>making his grand entrance by jumping out of drinking fountains and
>stuff... but then I experienced the down side... he can basically get in
>ANYWHERE he wants to.. who guards their water pipes?
What would happen <evil cackle> if the pipe ended in, say, a toilet
cistern, with a high bleach content? Or if it went through some sort of
purifier?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 13:33:01
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: <FHList> The Necrotron
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:00:41 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
><snipping my the Necrotron description>
>
>
>] Yuk! Hehehe!
>Well, necromancy's kind of an ugly business so if I'm going to do it, I
>should do it all the way.
That's the spirit! er I mean meat of the matter :}
>]
>] How about an AOE TK, Non-Selective? Or a low-powered AOE NS Entangle?
>Yea, something like this, except instead of doing a STR contest between the
>TK and the player's STR every half phase, I'm just going to have them make a
>modified STR roll. The entangle is maybe a better mechanic than the grab,
>since you could hack your way through. I think I'm going to require
>successful CON rolls to do any recovery on account of the nasty nasty smell.
>
>] Some thoughts, though: how much magic do the PCs wield?
>Well, the warlock has a pool around 30pts. and about 6 spheres so he's
>fairly versatile but not that powerful yet. The Crusader has about 20pts. in
>his pool but his magic is focused on cranking up his STR and armour.
OK, so not much - apprentice level effects only.
> Gliding, Force
>] Wall, Flight, Entangle could all make the trap easy to bypass.
>True. In fact, one of the basic spells in the Life sphere is Bind Undead
>which is an entangle against undead. This would certainly make things
>easier. If he thinks of it, I'll let him do it.
Hope he's not reading this list, then.
> How
>] about adding body parts to the walls like in Aliens?
>I've already used these things I call Pendulous Dead. Imagine a torso with
>nothing below the rib cage. Now, tie chains to the bottom of the rib cage
>and hang the torso from the ceiling by the long chain. Use blood magic to
>extend the bones in the hands into long claws. Animate and swing. My players
>found these guys very intimidating. When the warlock got grabbed, everybody
>freaked right out.
I'm not surprised, that is truly gross! Well done.
>]
>] A Cumulative Dispel or Transform would make for a good scene with the
>] priest chanting away at the Dispel / Transform while the warriors
>] heroicly defend him.
>I think the most likely scenario is the warlock using his air sphere's
>TK-in-a-cone to push back a path. This is going to be a riot.
Sounds like it. Have fun
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 09:38:59 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>> Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
>> full strength.
N> Replace Juggernaut with an enraged Hulk, then.
It does not matter who the brick is, it is a convention of genre. The
situation you describe simply will not happen, ever.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:15:17 -0500
From: David_A._Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us (David A. Fair)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
filkhero@usa.net writes:
>On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is
>possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to
>stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than
>50/50
>chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly
>physically
>normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing
>them
>to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the
>hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises.
Who in their right mind is not modeling Dynamite as a Killing Attack?
It almost defines the Explosive Killing Attack. Normal PD will not help
them
here, They are gonna need Resistant Defenses.
>On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give him
>a
>human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first good
>Haymaker
>from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by being hit
>just
>once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by
>spitting
>hard on him.
Which explains why he don't get hit...It wouldn't make a good story. It
won't
make a good game either.
>So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are
>powers
>that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against Juggernaut
>and
>still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that
>claim
>to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't slaughter
>them,
>without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_
>slaughter
>them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they survive as
>superheroes.
>For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when
>target
>can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of Severe
>Injury.
>This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to avoid
>serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's
>unconscious,
>but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed his "Dive
>for
>Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get partial
>cover
>before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it
>missed
>the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on.
I wouldn't bother with all of that, just make him buy a couple of extra
DCV
combat levels to represent how good he is at avoiding getting hit. He
probably
has a higher SPD than the brick who would paste him, so he can afford
to avoid
him when he needs to. Maybe throw combat sense and/or defensive
maneuver
in there for good measure.
>Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames?
Just this - If you (the GM) don't think the character ought to die from
a bad roll,
then don't make him die from a bad roll. If it won't be fun,
meaningful, etc. then
don't let it happen.
Thanks,
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:58 -0500
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campuscwix.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>
>Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have no
>resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no effect on
>normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem to hit
>him solidly enough, even when he does get shot.
>
>Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames?
>
>Filksinger
I like these ideas. They might be applicable to other genres where
characters seem to lightly armored for the damage they take like some
Fantasy or Action/Adventure movie type games.
Email Address change:Please update to the following:
nexus@uky.campuscwix.net
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 09:44:20 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
SN> Rat, you're assuming two things. First, that everyone plays the way
SN> you would like them to, which is manifestly not true;
The example characters are 4-color characters in a 4-color world. What I
described is a convention of the 4-color genre that dates back more than 50
years.
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:38:37 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>SN> Rat, you're assuming two things. First, that everyone plays the way
>SN> you would like them to, which is manifestly not true;
>
>The example characters are 4-color characters in a 4-color world. What I
>described is a convention of the 4-color genre that dates back more than 50
>years.
In comic books, yes. I agree with you there. Cyclops will not
fight Juggernaut. -In comic books-. But in a game of Champions,
I'd like to know how you will enforce the genre. As GM, I can
make sure that NPC Brick does not full-strength smash PC
Energy Projector, but how do I enforce the same consideration
on the PCs? In my experience, players don't give a rat's ass
for the conventions of genre; they go for efficient combat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He reached that middle height, and at the stars,
Which are the brain of heaven, he looked and sank.
Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
The army of unalterable law."
George Meredith, Lucifer in Starlight
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> "SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
>
> SN> Rat, you're assuming two things. First, that everyone plays the way
> SN> you would like them to, which is manifestly not true;
>
> The example characters are 4-color characters in a 4-color world. What I
> described is a convention of the 4-color genre that dates back more than 50
> years.
Thanks! Now we're all aware of it.
So, let's get back to *other* ways of keeping martial artists viable
when fighting bricks...
- --
Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
If we're so smart and so creative, why aren't we happier than they are?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:05:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
On 4 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >> Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
> >> full strength.
>
> N> Replace Juggernaut with an enraged Hulk, then.
>
> It does not matter who the brick is, it is a convention of genre. The
> situation you describe simply will not happen, ever.
And how do you propose enforcing this aspect ofthe genre in a game? Do
you ensure that the low DEF PC never meets the high-STR NPC brick? Do you
have the NPCs always miss? Do you fudge the dice so the PC brick that
swats an NPC low-DEF character only 'stuns' him?
At this point you are no longer running a game you are leading the PCs
through a story of your devising. You also have removed the random chance
of the dice and any notion of PC freewill. And I am almost positive that
that is the sort of game where you, Rat, would say 'See ya'.
There is understanding the genre and there is railroading players.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"What would you do with a brain if you *had* one?"
Dorothy (Judy Garland), from _The Wizard of Oz_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:52:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
On 04-Feb-99 I could have sworn that Scott Nolan said:
>
> In comic books, yes. I agree with you there. Cyclops will not
> fight Juggernaut. -In comic books-. But in a game of Champions,
> I'd like to know how you will enforce the genre. As GM, I can
> make sure that NPC Brick does not full-strength smash PC
> Energy Projector, but how do I enforce the same consideration
> on the PCs? In my experience, players don't give a rat's ass
> for the conventions of genre; they go for efficient combat.
As the GM I would think you have the power to lay down the rules in regards to
the genre. If your players aren't willing to follow the genre then perhaps you
need to find some different players.
In all the game I run I've always enforced the genre, making it clear that
efficient combat (as you put it) is not the goal. Role-playing is the goal.
If they just want to smash things then they should go play Warhammer or
something.
- ----------------------------------
E-Mail: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Date: 04-Feb-99
Time: 10:50:28
This message was sent by XFMail
- ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:55:44 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>I like these ideas. They might be applicable to other genres where
>characters seem to lightly armored for the damage they take like some
>Fantasy or Action/Adventure movie type games.
I have always assumed that Action Adventure heroes have damage reduction
to varying degrees, as well as aid to stun and body that activates when
the scene changes.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech..."
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:13:32 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <MCGINNESSS@parliament.uk>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheores
I think a lot of the problem in this stems from teh fact that as the number of D6
thrown for damage the more the damage huddles towards average. This
means that whilst a martial artist throwing 6D6 punches will not be too surprised
at the odd 30+ STUN result the brick throwing 12D6 punches is utterly amazed
to be getting 60+ STUN results.
In the genre the brick types are often slow and the martial artists are shown
scooting around making them miss and only getting glancing blows. I rate
submitted characters by throwing them up against hollow characters and see
how much damage they do over a round. I then modify them either up or down. I
also modify damage by how well the hit is made so modifications can be made
either through changing CV or through changing damage capability.
I now have far more martial artists who dish out 5 or 6 dice damage and have
defences of less than 12. They survuve and compete but if a brick does actually
catch one of them they are in serious trouble.
Fast, agile, extremely strong bricks are, and should be exceptionally
dangerous in my campaign.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:47:06 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux
>Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:52:46 -0500 (EST)
>Organization: Entertainment Resources Group
>Sender: chris@fiasco.ergmusic.com
>From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
>To: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
>Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>
>
>On 04-Feb-99 I could have sworn that Scott Nolan said:
>>
>> In comic books, yes. I agree with you there. Cyclops will not
>> fight Juggernaut. -In comic books-. But in a game of Champions,
>> I'd like to know how you will enforce the genre. As GM, I can
>> make sure that NPC Brick does not full-strength smash PC
>> Energy Projector, but how do I enforce the same consideration
>> on the PCs? In my experience, players don't give a rat's ass
>> for the conventions of genre; they go for efficient combat.
>
>As the GM I would think you have the power to lay down the rules in
regards to
>the genre. If your players aren't willing to follow the genre then perhaps
you
>need to find some different players.
>
>In all the game I run I've always enforced the genre, making it clear that
>efficient combat (as you put it) is not the goal. Role-playing is the goal.
>If they just want to smash things then they should go play Warhammer or
>something.
Wow. I wish I lived in the land of pliant game-players. They'd obey
my instructions, and if they didn't there'd be a ready supply of replacements.
Unfortunately, neither has ever come close to my experience.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He reached that middle height, and at the stars,
Which are the brain of heaven, he looked and sank.
Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
The army of unalterable law."
George Meredith, Lucifer in Starlight
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:21:28 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> At 10:51 PM 2/3/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
> >
> >F> Before you tell me, "He should be showing restraint", keep in mind that
> >F> most PCs in the Hero System do not routinely pull their punches when
> >F> trying to stop supervillians, however normal they appear.
I'll agree that that is a rare happening. Though if you don't penalize
the players when they act heroic, some players will start acting more genre.
> >It is a convention of genre. Cyclops will *NEVER* find himself in a boxing
> >match with Juggernaut. Something will happen to prevent that from
> >happening. Or something will happen to even the odds a bit.
>
> Rat, you're assuming two things. First, that everyone plays the way
> you would like them to, which is manifestly not true; and second, that
> the PC will always be the 'normal' in question. If I ran a Cyclops-like
> NPC villain, you may sure that the players would use -all- their strength,
> genre or no, and be mightily upset if I told them that the genre required
> less.
I ran a series of games in a campaign that had three different teams with
three different power levels.
Protectors were running at 35d6 attacks were the norm.
Academy was at ~20d6 and the Institute was running ~12d6.
The series involved the revenge scheme of one of my villains and the
disembodied brain of a clone of one of my PC's. It involved kidnapping
characters from several different power levels and then ended with a
huge battle royale involving all three teams and ~25 villains. To keep
players from beating on the weaker villains with their high powered I
had a little "genre" chart showing how many experience points one would
lose for attacking a lowered powered villain. Plus there were plenty
of targets anyways. Except for one Protector grabbing a high powered
weapon and shooting one of the Institute villains, it worked out well.
(The villain survived because she was a brick...) And another hero got
too close to an explosion as well and got killed. (In retrospect I
should of figured out how to get the hero to survive, but the player
had been annoying me for awhile.)
So you can run a game that way, it's just more difficult to enforce. I
think Filksinger's ideas for writing up "Writer's fiat" works better in
the long run.
- -Mark Lemming
p.s. These Protectors had nothing to do with the ones that got written
up in the published module.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #183
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