Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 186

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:31 AM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #186 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Friday, February 5 1999        Volume 01 : Number 186 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Other SRPGs as source material 
    unsubscribe 
    Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
    Desolidification 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    Re: Desolidification 
    Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers] 
    Re: [Re: Multipower Questions] 
    Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
    RE: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    RE: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
    RE: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:07:50 -0600 
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> 
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material 
 
Hmmm perhaps what he was promoting in his extended argument was the idea that 
HEROs explicit definition of powers discourages, imaginative ingame 
applications/adaptations of ones powers more than more than somewhat freeform 
definition of powers does. 
 
ooh boy that was verbose 
 
Tim Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > This is exactly what I'm looking for.  I'm not really looking for rules 
> > that aren't covered by the Hero System, I'm just looking for examples.  For 
> > instance, Heroes Unlimited describes a Smoke/Mist Control power and then 
> > lists several things you could do with that (obscure an area, choke 
> > someone, etc).  In Hero terms, this would be an Elemental Control, with 
> > Darkness and NND as slots.  The HU book just gave me some ideas in the 
> 
>         Er--reminds me of a bad memory. 
> 
>         I got into an *extended* argument with a fanatic of the Marvel 
> Super Heroes rules who insisted that system was better than hero because 
> it gave things like suffocation for mist form by default.  When I 
> pointed out that this was perfectly doable in Champs, she said that it was 
> a failing because it wasn't automatic--a character couldn't do things that 
> he/she hadn't bought specifically and therefore the system was bad. 
> 
>         Ug. 
> 
>                                         -Tim Gilberg 
>                         -"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:35:04 -0500 
From: Kenn Hogentogler <wingedwolf@earthlink.net> 
Subject: unsubscribe 
 
How do I go about unsubscribing from this list?  I lost all that info in 
a recent building fire.  (New computer, therefore, new hard drive) 
 
Thanks 
Kenn. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 4 Feb 99 19:57:43 MST 
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
 
> > So when you see the 14 year old kid with his prepackaged Magic deck at the 
> > gaming convention, don't dis him. He's one of us. He's just new.  
>  
> 	But what about those that never get beyond Magic?  I was just 
> dragging around some D&D books at that age, but I moved beyond--however, 
> roleplaying and card playing are quite different.  By roleplaying, I 
> realized how much more I could do when unencumbered by the (terrible) D&D 
> rules.  When card playing, that player may realize how much more he can do 
> by spending $50 on that kick-ass rare super-power-ultra card. 
>  
> 	Anyway, it's not the kids that bother me.  It's the older gamers 
> that were very much into the roleplaying scene, playing in a campaign or 
> two, that abandoned such to play Magic.  Or, just as bad, showed up at the 
> campaign with the cards to play side games with each other. 
 
Here's my observation on the subject (and it's probably so obvious no 
one else has bothered to post it...) 
 
Rember those crotchety old guys who used to waste thier time playing 
Axis & Alies or Mustangs & Meserschmitts or Napoleoncis or whatever 
on those funny green tables?  They used to sneer at us, we used to  
laugh at them.  Sure, some of 'them' took up D&D - but they always  
seemed to treat it like a small-scale tactical game, like they were 
playing Squad Leader or something - and some of use tried or hands at 
tactical or (more rarely) strategic games.  But, overall, it was, like, 
a near-miss. 
 
Well, we're them now, sneering at the CCGers and they're laughing at us. 
 
A hobby only lasts as long as it attracts adherents from each new  
generation.  Wargaming started with HG Well's 'Little Wars,' it lasted 
what, a century?  Quite an illustrius history, with a very noble begining 
(The idea of 'Little Wars' was that governments could simulate wars 
rather than fighting them).  We killed it.  Bunch of ignorant punk kids 
playing a lame 1:1 scale game with no historical merit... 
 
Now it's our turn. 
  
 
> > It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays 
> > off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if 
it 
> > brings new people into gaming, it's all good. 
>  
> 	Actually, I got into White Wolf well after Champions.  It can make 
> for a good game, if the GM is good.  Of course, that's true for any game. 
 
 
At least WW is still basicly an RPG.  I first dusted off my gloom-and-doom 
speach above when LARPing started taking off.  I was wrong then, LARPers 
tended to migrate to tabletop and vice versa pretty easily.  Now I'm  
thankful that WW came around.  Even if the generation of RPG'ers they  
attracted are a bunch of whinny, psuedo-angsty, goth-bunnies.  ;) 
 
 
We do have one thing in common with the Magic-addicts though.  The  
Fundies hate them, too. 
 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:20:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net> 
Subject: Desolidification 
 
question??? 
 
When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people 
 or would  he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so? 
 
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/  ....   
	"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?"  ... Real Genius 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 04 Feb 1999 22:34:48 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets mostly out of 
F> the way"? 
 
Um... Filk?  Have you read anything I've written?  What is wrong with it is 
that in a 4-color campaign it should not be a requirement.  An 8 DEF 
character will not have to worry about being slammed by a 70 Strength 
opponent because said opponent will *NEVER* go after that character with 
more than his casual Strength. 
 
If your players are ignoring this convention of the genre, don't reward the 
victims, punnish the perps by taking away experience (bad role-playing). 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:56:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Donald Tsang wrote: 
 
> For example, one might be: 
>  
>    Maximum DC of a non-martial strike = 
>  
>       target's (BODY + STR + CON) / 3 
>     + target's rPD or PD/5, whichever is higher 
>     - target's (levels in shrinking) * 3 
>     + target's (levels in growth) 
>     + target's KB resistance (clinging counts here, as does density increase) 
>  
>   Excess STR converts into knockback at a 1" / 5 STR rate 
>  
> ----- 
> What do you think? 
 
Way to much math for me.  But then, I thik the system is fine pretty much 
as is. 
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
Kevin Matchstick: "Oh great.  So, I'm reverting.  Becoming a child again." 
Mirth: "No, Kevin, you are becoming a warrior." 
 
_Mage_, Matt Wagner 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:02:16 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
At 12:28 AM 2/5/99 +0000, you wrote: 
>quick poll. 
> 
>does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that: 
> 
>a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence. 
>b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased 
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that 12-. 
 
make your syllogism Strength and see if you object: 
 
a. 15 Strength is twice that of 10 Strength. 
b. Accomplishing a basic strength roll, 10 STR has a barely decreased 
statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that 12-. 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:37:25 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification 
 
At 09:20 PM 2/4/1999 -0600, Brats Incorporated wrote: 
>question??? 
> 
>When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people 
> or would  he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so? 
 
No, to effect people, you probably want to buy Summoning.  This would be 
true whether or not the character is Desolid.  (Sorry, I'm in one of those 
Conan the Grammarian moods.) 
 
Damon 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.     
						-- Eddy Peters 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:04:26 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
>> Ok now another one : Falling system allows an average superhuman to fall 
>> for hundreds of meters and stay alive !! 
>> It is wrong in my opinion so falling should be more lethal... 
>> Any advice ??? Thank ya all!! 
> 
>It's strange, but it's more a problem with characters being able to survive 
>amazing damage.  See Filk's ideas on that.  I prefer it to the various 
>systems where you can die if you trip over a dachshund. 
 
I have always assumed the falling rules to represent falling on a neutral 
surface like dirt, and being aware and prepared for the fall.  Falling on 
something less yeilding like rock or water would be a killing attack 
conversion, and the damage increases if the character is unprepared for the 
fall (usually by 2-4D6). 
 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 04 Feb 1999 22:57:03 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filksinger@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Batman went up against the Hulk and attacked him unarmed hand to hand. 
F> Care to try again? 
 
Neat trick, that.  The DC/Marvel crossovers always were a bit whacked in 
the head. 
 
[...] 
 
F> Hero Games suggested Damage Reduction quite a while ago for heroes or 
F> villains who didn't appear superhuman, but somehow kept on coming. 
F> What's wrong with that? 
 
Nothing. 
 
What is 'wrong' is your application of that to *ANY* low-defense character, 
like Cyclops per your example.  Cyclops does *NOT* keep coming after being 
hit repeatedly.  On the relatively rare occasions he is hit hard, he goes 
down and stays down. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:54:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
On 4 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> MS> And how do you propose enforcing this aspect ofthe genre in a game?  Do 
> MS> you ensure that the low DEF PC never meets the high-STR NPC brick? 
>  
> By never having the high-STR NPC brick go directly after low-DEF PC, thus 
> obviating the fudging of dice or railroading the PCs.  Of course, if said 
> PC is foolish enough to challenge said NPC, the first time I will fudge it 
> a bit by having the NPC simply brush away the insignificant insect with 
> casual Strength.  If the PC keeps pressing in, well, by that point he 
> should know better. 
 
Okay, so PCs with psych lims such as "Must stop injustice" or "Code vs 
Killing" are fair game to be splattered if their psych lims state that 
they would try and interfere in the actions of the 70 STR brick? 
 
I mean, some PCs go ahead and get into such situations, even though they 
know that might be hurt and or killed, because to the player it is the 
'heroic' *GENRE* thing to do.  Saying that the PC is foolish and 
"...should know better" is an insult to all those that try to play by the 
exact same 4-color genre conventions you are describing. 
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
Kevin Matchstick: "Oh great.  So, I'm reverting.  Becoming a child again." 
Mirth: "No, Kevin, you are becoming a warrior." 
 
_Mage_, Matt Wagner 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 04 Feb 1999 22:47:41 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
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"DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes: 
 
DT> That works for NPC Bricks who have some sort of Psychological 
DT> Limitation, but what about Mr. Grey-Green-Berserk-Guy? 
 
When has Mr. Grey-Green-Berserk-Guy ever used his full strength against 
someone it would instantly pulverize? 
 
Look, does anyone question Mr. Average Guy turning into Mr. Grey- 
Green-Berzerk-Guy or Stretchy-Guy or Firey-Guy or what have you because 
they were doused with high-energy radiation?  Hell! no.  Radiation turns 
you into a superhero or supervillain.  It is totally unrealistic, but it is 
a convention of genre. 
 
This is the same thing.  Even the most careless, berzerk brick will never 
(okay, almost never) hit someone with his full strength unless that someone 
could take it.  It is not a matter of psychology or disadvantages or game 
mechanics.  It is totally unrealistic, but it is a convention of genre. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:08:09 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers] 
 
At 06:33 PM 2/4/99 -0700, you wrote: 
>owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote: 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> Hash: SHA1 
>>  
>> "ML" == Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> writes: 
>>  
>> ML> Example:  A focus providing 10/0 armor (15 active) would still have 3 
>def 
>> ML>           vs energy. 
>>  
>> But only for itself; you do not get 3 rED out of the Focus.  Just 
>> mentioning it so nobody gets any bright ideas. :) 
>>  
>> [...] 
>>   
>> ML> "Any Focus that provides defenses to the character is automatically 
>> ML>  hit by any attack that hits the character." BBB softcover pg 106 
>>  
>> Yeah, I know.  It makes Foci that provide defenses utterly useless. 
> 
>Should probably get some kind of award for the 'Most ignored rule in  
>Hero System.'  Or maybe, the 'Most broken rule to survive 4 Editions.' 
 
In my opinion the problem isnt with THIS rule, but with the incredibly 
teeny defenses that foci get.  Especially armor, why would it have less DEF 
than it provides?  AND the 1 BOD rule is absurd, the old system was much 
better, DEF/BOD for all items.  I half damage that items take if they are 
not directly attacked (armor for example). 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 04 Feb 1999 23:07:05 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [Re: Multipower Questions] 
 
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"AV" == ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> writes: 
 
AV> 2x END on a Multipower means, /any/ use of the Multipower is double END - 
AV> doesn't matter which slot you use. 
 
But switching slots does not require x2 END expenditure (not that it costs 
any END... :).  The Multipower framework is limited, not the reserve. 
 
AV> Act 14- on a Multipower mean, if you want to use /anything/ in the  
AV> Multipower, it's a 14- roll to activate. 
 
But switching slots does not require an activation roll.  The Multipower 
framework is limited, not the reserve. 
 
AV> 4 Chgs on a Multipower means, you can use this Multipower 4 times and  
AV> that's it. 
 
If you put x2 END on a Multipower framework, each slot gets the x2 END 
limitation.  If you put 14- Activation on a Multipower framework, each slot 
gets the 14- Activation limitation.  Pick any limitation in the book; if 
you put it on the Multipower framework, each slot gets that limitation. 
 
If you put 4 Charges on a Multipower framework, each slot gets 4 Charges. 
 
If not, you are treating Charges differently from every other limitation in  
the book. 
 
AV> OAF on a Multipower means, if someone takes away your OAF, the whole 
AV> Multipower is gone. 
 
Because a Multipower with Focus is considered to be a single power.  This 
is the only 'exception', and it is not really an exception but a 
clarification. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:19:52 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
 
>A hobby only lasts as long as it attracts adherents from each new  
>generation.  Wargaming started with HG Well's 'Little Wars,' it lasted 
>what, a century?  Quite an illustrius history, with a very noble begining 
>(The idea of 'Little Wars' was that governments could simulate wars 
>rather than fighting them).  We killed it.  Bunch of ignorant punk kids 
>playing a lame 1:1 scale game with no historical merit... 
> 
>Now it's our turn. 
 
Oh now, Wargaming is still around and doin fine trust me :)  Its just not 
as popular, but there are newer forms like Chronopia and such appearing as 
well, hobbys go through various waves and stages, RPGs will do so. 
Collectible Card Games, as fun as they are, are NOT in the same class, 
however, they are pretty limited in their charm and variety, and while 
magic was addictive for a while, poor management of supply, insane, 
inconsistent and contradictory changes to the rules, and inherant rarity 
problems basically have cut its throat, MTG is bleeding, and is losing 
popularity fast.  RPGs suffered a little bump, but are coming back, 
miniature games seem to be having an upsurgance too.    
 
CCGs will always be with us, they are lots of fun and easier to play at 
lunch, requiring no preparation and little creativity to play.  But RPGs 
arent dead nor dying any more than Wargaming is. 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:11:01 -0500 
From: "Warren E. Taylor" <wtaylor@mindspring.com> 
Subject: RE: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
>quick poll. 
> 
>does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that: 
> 
>a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence. 
>b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased 
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that 
12-. 
> 
>Or is it just me being petty? 
 
It's just you running into one of the conventions of the system.  A punch 
that only does more damage class is also from someone twice as strong. 
 
I do not find these things objectionalble. An 11- is a 62.5% success chance 
and a 12- is a 74% chance of success. Looked at another way, the 11- is a 
37.5% chance of failure and the 12- is a 26% chance. This happens to be 
about a 144% greater chance of failure for the 10 INT. I don't happen to 
think that twice the intelligence in real life would yield half the failure 
chance, so these numbers are quite reasonable. The bell curve of the 3d6 
system is a very important consideration. 
 
As for damage, there are lots of arguments. A 15 STR should NOT produce 
twice the damage. In the first place, punching power and strength are very 
loosely correlated. If we want realism, an increase in the DEX of the 
character would be a bigger factor because the velocity of the punch is more 
important than the strength of the character. 
 
Furthermore, Hero was probably geared toward the average fight a character 
might encounter. If a punch does 3d6 (10-11 damage) and it increases to 4d6 
(14 damage), the 14/10 ratio is only 1.4. This might be accurate enough 
considering that twice the strength would not yield twice the damage. 
However, if players have an average PD of 8, for example, the 3d6 punch 
would yield 2 net damage and the 4d6 punch would yield a net of 6 damage, a 
3:1 ratio. Because of practical considerations of this nature, the Hero 
system would fall apart if the rewards for increased stats were linear. I 
like the system just fine. 
 
Warren 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:57:00 -0500 
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net> 
Subject: RE: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
I think I'd have to disagree here...there are a number of  
circumstances (most notably Berzerk/Enraged, but others as 
well), where that brick /would/ fully unload on the PC.   
In such a situation, I agree with Filk that it would be  
good to have a well-defined way that the character can 
survive such an attack without forcing the GM to resort to 
fudging dice rolls, or the actions of the brick.  If you 
choose to exclude any game where these events are possible 
from your strict definition of "4-Color", that's fine, but  
I think that there are a lot of these "5-Color" games out  
there that could benefit from a mechanic such as this. 
 
	----Scott 
 
> F> What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets  
> mostly out of the way"? 
>  
> Um... Filk?  Have you read anything I've written?  What is  
> wrong with it is 
> that in a 4-color campaign it should not be a requirement.  An 8 DEF 
> character will not have to worry about being slammed by a 70 Strength 
> opponent because said opponent will *NEVER* go after that  
> character with more than his casual Strength. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:02:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
 
>>...and the thing everybody seems to be 
>> forgetting is that, since we're dealing with an 
>> RPG--by definition a social activity--the >>brittle character wil 
rarely have to go up >>against the hulking bruiser alone.  
 
>That doesn't mean events won't force him to 
> be the one to have to deal with him. Games 
> don't run on scripts.  
 
Well, they run on scripts, albeit a much more freeform one--and there 
are ways to skew things without making the environment totally in the 
brittle character's favor....I've faced down bricks in my day with 
low-DEF characters by, to use one example, using their psychological 
hang-ups against them so I can keep my distance.  *Any* player who's 
smart and aware of the game environment can find a way to avoid being 
squished without GM fiat--if worse comes to worse, running away to 
regroup is not without precedence in comic book land.... 
 
>>Personally, I find players enjoy these kinds of 
>> confrontations because it makes them think, 
>> and gives them a sense of true 
 >>accomplishment after winning.  
 
>Right up until the point it doesn't work out. Nor 
> is it always that tidy; there's no promise that 
> such a way exists.  
 
Yes, there is--it's called 'giving players opportunities to work their 
way out,' which is a minor form of GM fiat that, to me, is a lot more 
'palatable' than keeping brittle characters safe. 
 
Of course, if a brittle character insists on doing things the hard way, 
challenging the big ol' brick and not taking no for an answer, choosing 
to tough it out rather than relying on his wits (which brittle 
characters tend to have more of in the long run--whether its in 
detective skills or Cyclops' spacial geometry skill so he could, let's 
say, bounce a beam off a wall and hit the Hulk in the back of the head, 
stunning him), then he prolly should be seriously hurt to teach his ass 
a lesson.... 
 
But I, as a GM or as a player, have never had to do that. 
 
"Many bears talk" 
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say." 
"Talk Goddamn head off.  Always got something to say about bees." 
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found 
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story 
from the archives....you've been warned. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:19:04 -0800 (PST) 
From: miq@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
Michael Surbrook says: 
>  
> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Donald Tsang wrote: 
>  
> > For example, one might be: 
> >  
> >    Maximum DC of a non-martial strike = 
> >  
> >       target's (BODY + STR + CON) / 3 
> >     + target's rPD or PD/5, whichever is higher 
> >     - target's (levels in shrinking) * 3 
> >     + target's (levels in growth) 
> >     + target's KB resistance (clinging counts here, as does density increase) 
> >  
> >   Excess STR converts into knockback at a 1" / 5 STR rate 
> >  
> > ----- 
> > What do you think? 
>  
> Way to much math for me.  But then, I thik the system is fine pretty much 
> as is. 
 
and a touch too deadly. 
 
I played a martial artist that started as a normal guy in the early years 
of what eventually became the high powered Bell's Protectors.  He relied on 
not being hit.  Had 10 pd/ed and 6/6 armor on a 14- for at least the first 
50 experience points (I found my stack of old character sheets and those 
are his defenses at 57 exp).  Of course once he was hit by the mutating 
rays of the evil Ninja-tron..... 
 
Let's take his numbers at 317 points.  He had a 20 str, 18 con, 15 body.   
 
20+18+15/3 = 17.666 + 6 = 23.666 == 83 stun and 24 body on the average. 
Enough to one punch him out of the scenario.  It never happened, he could 
usually take two or three shots before being taken down. 
 
I'm pretty sure this is about 40-50% too high. 
 
 
- --  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 05:34:57 GMT 
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow) 
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:15:05 -0800, Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
sent these symbols into the net: 
 
> 
>Too much for what?  For the damage done?  I have always felt without the 
>full set of optional rules that the strength damage is far too LOW for the 
>amount you lift (if I can lift a tank over my head I should kill a normal 
>person instantly with any even semi solid punch, I would say, but 10D6 just 
>makes them go owiee and maybe bleed to death if they are 8 BOD, 
>eventually).  If you dont like the amound they can lift, limit the STR 
>level and let them buy extra dice for the damage if you want that.  I dont 
>see any reason to alter the strength chart, if you dont want people to lift 
>trawlers, put a cap on STR. 
  I tend to think that punching damage is partly based on how fast you can 
move your fist, as well as raw strength, I mean  a fork lift can lift a 
ton, but the the lifting mechanism moves too slowly to do damage to 
anything that can move away. 
********************************************************************** 
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.* 
*       Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter.             * 
********************************************************************** 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:38:42 -0500 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
On Feb. 4, Black Bishop wrote: 
 
 
>Hi folks, I am sorry if I didn't write before but study kept me very 
busy 
>Well just today I was planning a new campaign for us 
>It is designed in 2047, with a setting similar to "Age of Apocalypse" 
(BUT 
>NOT THE SAME!!!!) 
>(Just to make you understand) 
>Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my 
campaign... 
>it is TOO powerful !!! 
>Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I 
think !!! 
 
 
Depends on what you mean by "lift."  The BBB isn't terribly clear on 
this.  A few of the folks on this list have come up with their own 
guidelines for what STR really means.  Here's mine. 
 
Now a 10 STR indicates an ability to lift and carry a mass of 100 kg, 
putting the full STR of his body into the feat, such as carrying a 
100-kg man in a fireman's carry.  This "shoulder lift" is what's given 
in the STR table, and defines his encumbrance maximum.  (I place a 
severe movement penalty on this fully encumbered state.)  As a method 
of reference for other types of lift, a character's squat-lift 
potential is about 2/3 his shoulder lift capability, a dead-lift 
weight is about 1/2 his shoulder lift, a bench press or clean-and-jerk 
about 1/3 his shoulder lift, and a snatch-and-jerk or lift with one 
hand about 1/4 his shoulder lift.  So a 10 STR man can shoulder or 
carry a maximum of 100 kg without Pushing, squat-lift roughly 70 kg, 
dead-lift about 50 kg, bench press or clean-and-jerk around 35 kg, and 
snatch-and-jerk about 25 kg. 
 
A 20 STR man who can who can deadlift 200 kg or bench press 135 kg is 
hardly superhuman.  This scale places the strongest weight lifters in 
the 23-25 STR range. 
 
>And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift 
TOO 
>MUCH!!! 
>(Hey man... 100 tons are too much!!!) 
>Could you halp me to find a good idea ? I was thinking about allow 
lift the 
>STR^2 in Kilos but it is too weak !!! 
 
 
I've tinkered with the STR/mass/energy scale of Hero at the upper 
ranges to provide for a more graduated rise in these figures.  From 
51-100 STR, lift mass doubles with every +10 STR.  Above 100 STR, lift 
mass doubles with every +20 STR.  It also implies that for 11-20 DC 
attacks, every +2 DC means a doubling of gross damage energy, while 21 
DC attacks and better double their energy with every +4 DC. 
 
This method has points for and against it.  It makes the truly 
superhuman seem much more impressive than the merely heroic.  Those 18 
BODY normal humans aren't quite so problematic when the BODY of very 
massive objects is even greater.  High energy attacks like tank guns, 
when translated into Hero terms, do much more damage--which means 
rolling a lot more dice, of course--making the world more 
realistically lethal. 
 
On the other hand, the DEF figures of armor and strong materials must 
be revised upward.  It also means changing the values of the Growth 
and the Density Increase powers.  And if you think hard about issues 
of mass and energy, you have to take into account the "transition 
zones" where the scale changes, adding a further level of complexity. 
 
All this scale-changing sacrifices much of the existing simplicity of 
the game's scale, so it's purely experimental. 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:04:27 -0800 (PST) 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> "BD" == Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> writes: 
>  
> BD> So, let's get back to *other* ways of keeping martial artists viable 
> BD> when fighting bricks... 
>  
> Don't play a character with defenses that are half the minimum recomended 
> by the DC cap of the game.  That is, if you are in a 12DC game, you should 
> have 12 PD and ED, minimum.  If you have less than that... don't fight 
> 70-Strength bricks, because eventually one of them will tag you. 
 
That's fair. 
 
I'd actually probably be comfortable with simply buying PD and ED 
defined as "genre defenses."  Automatic rolling with the blow, as it 
were.  That'd require a strong GM hand to avoid twinkism, but it would 
certainly be the simplest way to simulate the genre convention. 
 
- --  
  Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell 
 [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] 
       "If you can't learn to do it well, learn to enjoy doing it badly." 
                             -- Ashleigh Brilliant 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:18:29 -0500 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
 
>>A hobby only lasts as long as it attracts adherents from each new 
>>generation.  Wargaming started with HG Well's 'Little Wars,' it 
lasted 
>>what, a century?  Quite an illustrius history, with a very noble 
begining 
>>(The idea of 'Little Wars' was that governments could simulate wars 
>>rather than fighting them).  We killed it.  Bunch of ignorant punk 
kids 
>>playing a lame 1:1 scale game with no historical merit... 
>> 
>>Now it's our turn. 
 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some of the most popular computer 
games of our day wargames?  Wargames haven't passed away--they've 
instead passed into a new form where the computer takes over the messy 
work of calculating damage, combat results, movement points spent, 
fatigue levels, and so on. 
 
I was an avid wargamer back in the 70s, before I discovered RPGs, but 
still had a hard time finding folks in my area who shared my hobby. 
Wearing my SPI/Strategy & Tactics t-shirt brought only stares and 
questions from classmates.  When I tried to explain wargaming to them, 
they shook their heads in puzzlement. 
 
The move to computers has made wargaming a truly viable and popular 
hobby, what with all the web sites devoted to sharing scenarios for 
Steel Panthers, Empire II (my fave), and other games.  Usenet groups 
are devoted to computer wargames.  Computer wargames can be played 
online.  RPGs may have had an effect on those 
moving-cardboard-counters-across-the-hex-sheet games, but wargames in 
their new form are doing just fine. 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:19:12 -0500 
From: "Randy Buttram" <dasbutz@hotmail.com> 
Subject: RE: Multipower Questions 
 
>Same thing with 4 charges.  If one of the slots in an EB and another, 
an RKA, the 4 charges on the EB really mean 'cannot be used after the EB 
has been used 4 times without recovering it's charges.'  And the 4 charges 
of RKA are really 'cannot be used after the RKA has been used 4 times 
without recovering it's charges.'  When the limitation of on one slot 
comes up, it doesn't come up for any of the others.  They're not the 
same limitation. 
 
I could see putting a limitation on the Reserve in such a case of "x clips 
of y charges" where x is the number of slots in the Multipower and y is the 
number of charges each slot has. Of course, the SFX of the multipower would 
have to support it as well. 
 
My 2 points worth.... 
 
Randy Buttram 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:10:24 EST 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
In a message dated 99-02-04 14:40:59 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes: 
 
> And if the mega-blast hits a hero, the hero was _mostly_ missed, while still 
>  taking damage and being put down. The blast hit the wall and the concussion 
>  took the hero down. Or it grazed him, and he got bad burns, but lived. Etc, 
>  etc, etc. 
>   
>  This is exactly what I am trying to build here. Sets of "powers" that 
aren't 
>  powers, per se, but enforcement of genre conventions, allowing heroes who 
>  would have died in the first major supervillain assault to go on for years. 
 
I agree that something like this is desirable. But I don't think Damage 
Reduction is the right Power to represent this. IMO it's better represented by 
extra PD and ED bought with the Limitation "Only vs Body." (The sfx can be an 
'armored' costume, preternatural combat skill, luck, or some combination of 
these).  
 
For example, in our current superhero game I'm a martial-artist/gadgeteer 
named Cavalier who's a physically a normal human. But he's also a Brilliant 
Scientist (chemistry type) in his secret ID, and one of his gimicks is a 
'special chemical treatment' of his costume's fabric that makes it 15 pt 
armor. But it also has a weakness: The PD portion of the armor has the Lim 
"only vs Body."  
 
He isn't often hit, since he has a good DEX and a fist full of Levels. But 
when he is hit, he's usually CON-stunned and often KOed, at least if the 
attack is physical rather than energy. The result is a pretty good 
approximation of genre: He has plenty of incentive to dance around and avoid 
getting hit, and when he is hit he ends up in the genre position of lying 
unconscious on top of some rubble. Furthermore, the aftermath is the in-genre 
one of his waking up to face a deathtrap or some other evil plot rather than 
the contra-genre one of lost BODY, broken bones, paramedic first aid, and 
lengthy hospital stays.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 12:12:43  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:16:50 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote: 
 
>>On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:37:26 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote: 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>If you need to make an exception for Charges, I resubmit that Charges is 
>>>>the problem, not Multipower. 
>>> 
>>>If that was the only Limitation that had this problem, I'd agree.  It isn't. 
>>>Burnout suffers from exactly the same problem, as does Extra Time.  That 
>>>tells me it's a framework problem, not a problem with the Limitation. 
>> 
>>I fail to see that it's a problem at all - it's one of the advantages 
>>of the Hero System which enables you to model just about anything. If 
>>you apply the Limitation to the MP, then that Limitation affects the 
>>whole MP. If your MP has a Burnout which kicks in, then the whole MP is 
>>Burned Out; if it's just the Powers within the MP, then it's just that 
>>one Power which gets Burned Out. 
> 
> 
>At which point, only the slot should get the Limitation, not the Multipower. 
>That's the problem; as discussed, the system doesn't make any distinction 
>between charges-on-slots and charges-on-pool.  Hell, I'll even admit that my 
>interpetation doesn't help as soon as you get into the break even or higher 
>charges numbers; I had to come up with a house rule to address it in the end. 
> 
>My argument was that the cost value is clearly broken when a four slot 
>multipower with charges can end up with more overall uses than one of it's 
>single powers would while costing less.  Something is obviously wrong at 
>that point.  Rat thinks it's the Charges; I think it's how the Multipower 
>handles them. 
 
I rather think it is in the description of the MP - the Limitation only 
applies to the MP if it is *identical*, not merely alike. So with a 
Focus, it must be the exact same focus; with Charges, it must be the 
exact same Charges, not the same no of Charges, but the *same*; with 
Burnout, it must be the same Burnout, not one for each. Et cetera 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #186 
***************************** 


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