Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 188
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:04 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #188
champ-l-digest Friday, February 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 188
In this issue:
Re: blocking the heavy hits
RE: Proposal for new sourcebook
psychological limitations and how they can get you into trouble
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Torg Possibilities (was: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions)
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]
Character: Gandalf The White
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Desolidification
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Proposal for new sourcebook
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Character: Gandalf The White
RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 13:17:24 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
MS> uhm... wait a moment. I have seen, both in comics and in other
MS> genres/media, scenes where person A has tried to block person B's atatck
MS> and falied miserably because person B's blow was too
MS> powerful/strong/heavy. Happens in fantasy a lot.
Person A failed his Block roll. Happens a lot the other way, too, both in
fiction and real life.
MS> As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
MS> blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
MS> failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack.
Because Superman did not use his full strength.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE2uzW0gl+vIlSVSNkRAly2AJ9rSMV+T6nwsXaniaiC4XKXi02Y5QCfcGV2
4Hs9IfUyQ0FOdHNlUfxVcho=
=X5P7
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:56:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Subject: RE: Proposal for new sourcebook
On 05-Feb-99 I could have sworn that David Stallard said:
> Here's an idea for a sourcebook for Hero/Gold Rush to consider or shoot
> down (I'd be interested to know if any other list members would find this
> valuable, too). Some similar ideas have been floated before (the Ultimate
> Energy Projector, for instance), but this idea is more broad. Here goes:
>
> How about a "Hero System Ultimate Powers Book"? There was once an Ultimate
> Powers book for Marvel Super Heroes (you can now download this in PDF
> format for free, but I don't have the URL handy right now) which is great
> for drawing ideas for Champions characters. I think this concept would be
> great for Champions, since the Big Blue Book essentially gives you the
> basic and explains the math, but doesn't do much as far as showing you how
> to apply the powers/advantages/limitations by describing common powers. I
> know that 5th Edition Hero System will have lots more examples, but I have
> a feeling the examples will mostly be used to explain the math, not give
> you lots of applications for a power. Besides, giving examples of all the
> common powers seen in comics and and other media would be ambitious enough
> of a project to warrant it's own book.
>
> What I envision is a description of a power in plain english, followed up
> by how to implement it in the Hero System. For example (and much
> abbreviated): "Fire Blast allows your character to shoot jets of fire out
> of his hands, eyes, or any focus you might choose. This is represented
> with a standard Energy Blast. For more realistic fire, that burns after
> the shot is finished, you can apply Continuous, Uncontrolled to the power.
> For <some other special effect>, you can use <some other advantage or
> limitation>. <And so on>." Ice Blast and Laser Blast (and whatever else)
> would have their own entries which would be similar (based on EB), but the
> special versions would be different because of the different
> advantages/limitations needed to pull off that effect.
>
> Part of the book could also be organized by Elemental Control. For
> example, there could be a section for "Magnetism Control", followed by a
> bunch of common powers and how to implement them in the Hero System. There
> could also be sections like "Speedster powers," "Strength Powers," or
> "Mental Mastery," which would then have lists of powers commonly used by
> those types of characters (Speedsters, Bricks, and Mentalists,
> respectively). Several concept implementations via Multipower and Variable
> Power Pool would also be good.
>
> In a sense, this book would pull together all of the "Ultimate" books
> (those published as well as those still on a wishlist somewhere, such as
> Ultimate Energy Projector) into one volume which would be the ultimate
> reference to building a character. However, in no way would it replace
> those books. They would still be the "specialty" books for when greater
> detail is needed, but this Ultimate Powers book would give players a taste
> of what lies in each of those books, so they could build decent characters
> in any genre without having to seek out the large (and growing) collection
> of Ultimate <character type> books.
>
> And this book wouldn't have to strive to list every conceivable power under
> the sun. It could just list the common ones that are often seen in comic
> books and related media, and it would still be up to the players to
> implement the more unique powers they come up with. But just having the
> basics written down with an "official" implementation would be really
> valuable as a springboard for ideas, as well as really helping new players
> create the character they want with a much smaller learning curve than is
> required by the current material (the Big Blue Book).
>
> So what do you think?
It's an interesting concept, that's for sure. For certain special effects
there are numerous ways to develop the actual mechanics. To me, the focus of
the book should be how to turn special effects into powers and the justifcation
that goes along with them.
Examples are great because they usually fuel other ideas on how to build that
power you've been mulling around in your head.
- ----------------------------------
E-Mail: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Date: 05-Feb-99
Time: 12:54:57
This message was sent by XFMail
- ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:50:58 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: psychological limitations and how they can get you into trouble
At the risk of getting into one of these long, drawn-out debates over the
minutae of Champs philosophy, I disagree.
I think we can all agree that psych lims effect the way a character responds
to a given stimulus or circumstance. The varying levels of severity for
psych lims are well known to everyone here. The higher the severity of the
psych lim, the less likely it is that your character has the option to use
his/her better judgement instead of following the psych lim.
So, let's look at an example. Chuck, the Sacred Golden Fist of Winnipeg is a
square jawed martial artist hero with really tall hair and has the following
psych lim:
20 Defends the Innocent [uncommon, total]
Now, Chuck watches in horror as Rhinox, the brick who likes move-throughs is
lining up a busload of preschoolers that's teetering on the edge of a cliff.
Chuck's intel on Rhinox is that he sucks up damage like a ShopVac and can
really lay the big hits. Now, knowing full well that on his best day, Chuck
is totally outmatched, what does he do?
Does Chuck...
[A] pretend he didn't see nothin', go get some poutine.
[B] try in vain to distract Rhinox with his little sissy martial strikes,
thus having something to point to as an attempt to save the children
[C] get in Rhinox's way and get beat on, thus giving the nuns a chance to
get the schoolkids off the bus and call 911 on behalf of Chuck, the Sacred
Golden Fist of Winnipeg
If your answer is anything other than [C], I don't see where you deserve the
20pts.
Is [C] the *smart* move? Not really. Heroic? For sure. Required by the rules
of the game? I would say that it is.
Clearly, this issue tends to get more arbitrary when you get into things
like 'Overconfident' or 'Vengeful' but I like a nice, clearcut example to
make the point.
Phobias are also good examples. It's stupid and irrational to be afraid of
open spaces or mice but there are a lot of otherwise reasonable people who
are afraid of these things.
I do agree that stupidity can be produced by other things, like role-playing
[good or bad], illusions of grandeur, closed mindedness, and so on. Just as
hypothetical examples.
Have a super day,
BRI
] >> Having a psychological limitation does not mean you have
] to be stupid
] >> about it.
]
] BW> The whole point of a psych lim is that sometimes you do
] stupid things.
]
] No, the whole point of a psych lim is that you act or react a
] certain way
] to certain things. Stupidity is role-playing (or lack
] thereof), not a game
] mechanic.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:43:46 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
] Very, but that's because Galactus' attack is most
] likely considered
] AE. That's a rather large fist or foot.
Right you are. Gigantic attacks are a bad example.
<snippage>
] Nope, both are quite blockable. Remember, there may
] very well be no
] contact at all with a block. Try a sidestep. You're taking
] the maneuver
] too literally--it's a maneuver that keeps an attacker from
] hitting you while
] giving you an edge with your next attack--that may be a
] stopped move, that
] may be a sidestep, that may be a duck, etc.
So, what's the difference between a block and a dodge in terms of SFX?
What if your special effect is that you physically *block* the attack. For
example, suppose you have a shield that's a focus for +4OCV with blocks. If
you block an attack that's big enough to destroy the shield, would you get
the +4OCV?
I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a
problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the interest
of realism. I know that realism is something of a dirty word with some
members of the list here but it's important to my game.
Thanks ever so,
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:50:35 -0800
From: "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net>
Subject: Torg Possibilities (was: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions)
> I think the best example of this kind of system is Torg, where
> points can be
> used to buy off 'levels' of damage, either stun, knock-out
> effects or killing
> damage. Similarly in Champions, you could buy off stun, Body or
> knock back
> (hmm, I'm prepared to take the damage but I'll buy off the knock
> back so that
> I won't hurt that crowd of press photographers who are ALWAYS so
> close to the
> action - heroic use).
>
> Mechanics? Hey, don't ask me, I'm a philosopher.
FWIW, here are some rules I developed for Fuzion, back when I had hope for the system... ;-)
- -=-=-=-=--=--=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-
Possibilities-
Everyone has possibility energy coursing through them. This is the energy that the High Lords have come to steal. This energy is the energy that will catapult one of those raiders to ultimate power. It helps us change our futures, and mold our destinies.
When the High Lords landed on Earth, they created an urgent need for Earth to defend itself. Earth responded by choosing special people who have within them the seeds of heroism as Her special army of soldiers. Knights who can brave the storms.
These Storm Knights have become empowered with the ability to store and use possibility energy (possibilities) at their command, and are considered in game terms to be "Possibility-rated." Possibility-rated characters have the ability to alter the reality around them with that Possibility energy. Possibilities can be used in a variety of ways.
Here are the ways you can spend a Possibility:
1) Add +1D6 to the die roll to hit.
2) Add +3DC of damage
3) Reduce damage done in Stun/Hits (how much?)
You may do 3 of the following:
a) -10 Stun from the attack
b) -10 Hits from the attack
c) Cancel a Stunned Condition
d) -3" Knockback
4) Counter other possibility used to add to Hit or Damage
5) Create a reality bubble for 15 minutes.
Or...
6) Spend them to permanently increase skills, stats, etc. at 1 OP per Possibility.
I believe the math worked out to be approximately equal to 15 Active points in Hero System if the possibility was spent on the fly, and as a regular experience point for permanent change.
I used these rules for a Con game, and it made the "normals that were sucked into an alternate reality" a lot tougher. A lot! But the main baddies had the same ability to use possibilities...so that leveled things out quick.
Hope this helps. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:32:44 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
>blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
>failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack. Hmm..
>Filksinger? This looks like your realm.
Supes has to pay for it, he's got an Energy Blast (or perhaps a RKA) thats
bought triggered "when someone blocks one of my punches" with no range and
the special effect of "I hit so hard you take damage despite your block",
it's pricey, but hey it's superman. It also makes a rude ability for a
master villian or one of his lieutenants.
Max Callahan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:37:58 -0500
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
Brian Wawrow wrote:
> What if your special effect is that you physically *block* the attack. For
> example, suppose you have a shield that's a focus for +4OCV with blocks. If
> you block an attack that's big enough to destroy the shield, would you get
> the +4OCV?
>
> I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a
> problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the interest
> of realism. I know that realism is something of a dirty word with some
> members of the list here but it's important to my game.
IMHO, Block should also include the SFX of deflection -- turning a heavy blow
aside with a shield or weapon, so that you don't stop it but redirect it so it
misses or hits something else. That might cause some collateral damage.
Mathieu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:50:04 -0500
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:14 PM
>> instead passed into a new form where the computer takes over the messy
>> work of calculating damage, combat results, movement points spent,
>> fatigue levels, and so on.
>
>Instead wargames have passed into a new form where the computer takes
>over the messy work of actually having to smell wargamers, buy them
>beer, listen to them chat about their gout, etc.
>
>
> just a spin, not meant as a flame :)
Not to mention the fact that most computer wargames have such poor AI that,
even at their highest level of challenge, beating them is often no great
toil. And the computer never complains if you cheat by changing the
initial setup of forces. :)
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:38:14 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Gandalf The White
GANDALF THE WHITE
18 STR 8
18 DEX 24
20 CON 20
25 BODY 30
25 INT 15
30 EGO 40
35 PRE 25
14 COM 2
10 PD 6
10 ED 6
5 SPD 22
15 REC 14
80 END 20
60 STUN 16
Characteristics Cost: 248
6 Life Support,immune to disease,immune to aging
9 +3 Enhanced Perception,with all senses
9 +2 Detect,"Magic",make into sense
60 75% Damage Reduction (PD),resistant
60 75% Damage Reduction (ED),resistant
12 12/12 Damage Resistance
20 Clairsentience,see future, No Conscious Control, 0 END
3 Bump Of Direction
38 15- Danger Sense, any attack, general area
10 Eidetic Memory
3 Lightsleep
15 3D6 Luck
2 WF,Swords,Quarterstaff
5 1 Levels: Melee Weapons
20 2 Levels, all skills
11 Conversation 20-
9 Deduction 17-
11 High Society 20 -
13 Navigation 16-
9 Oratory 19-
3 Paramedic 14-
17 Persuasion 23-
5 Riding 14-
3 Linguist
1 Lang: The Tongue of Aman, native, literacy
5 Lang: Quenya, imitate dialects, literacy
4 Lang: Sindarin, imitate dialects, literacy
4 Lang: Adunaic, imitate dialects, literacy
4 Lang: Westron, imitate dialects, literacy
4 Lang: Hobbitish, imitate dialects, literacy
5 Lang: Khuzdul, imitate dialects, literacy
4 Lang: Black Speech, imitate dialects, literacy
5 Lang: Haradrim, imitate dialects, literacy
5 Lang: Easterling, imitate dialects, literacy
28 15- Universal Translator
3 Traveler
6 AK: Eriador 18-
5 AK: Gondor 17-
4 AK: Rhovanion 16-
2 AK: Rhun 14-
2 AK: Mordor 14-
2 AK: Haradwaith 14-
4 AK: Aman 16-
3 Scholar
5 KS: History of Middle-Earth 17-
4 KS: The Peoples of Middle-Earth 16-
9 KS: Councils of the Wise 21-
8 KS: Minions and Powers of Sauron 20-
5 KS: Items of Power 17-
3 KS: Maiar of Middle-Earth 15-
2 KS: Will of the Valar 14-
2 KS: Fireworks 14-
3 Well-Connected
1 11- Contact: Cirdan
5 15- Contact: Elrond
1 11- Contact: Thranduil
4 14- Contact: Celeborn and Galadriel
2 12- Contact: Saruman
3 13- Contact: Radagast
5 15- Contact: Aragorn
1 11- Contact: Eomer
1 11- Contact: Faramir
1 11- Contact: Imrahil
1 11- Contact: Bard II
1 11- Contact: Dain II Ironfoot
1 8- Contact: Fangorn
1 11- Contact: Gwaihir
217 Variable Power Pool (100-poin pool),
restricted type of powers ("Istari Powers"),
can change powers as 0 phase, no skill roll required
32 Package, "Glamdring - Gondolin Broadsword",OAF,STR Min 10
(18) 2D6 Killing Attack HTH, vs physical defense,
+1 Increased Stun Multiple
(6) 3 Levels,related group
(9) Sense Orcs and Other Dark Servants, 360-degrees, +3 PER
362 Package,"Narya The Ring of Fire", IIF,0 END Persistent
(13) KS: Fire Magic 20-
(108) 10D6 Aid, "To VPP", Use Risks Drawing Sauron's Attention,
Extra Time (1 turn), Continuous, Uncontrolled
Only for Fire Magic or to bring Courage and Strength
(64) Invisibility, Detect, Mental Group,no fringe
(63) 3D6 Aid to Presence, fade rate: per day, Usable By Others,
doesn't lose power, usable at range, x16 # Of Targets
(69) 75% Damage Reduction (ED),resistant, Only v. Fire and Cold
(5) Life Support,safe in heat/cold
(16) 10 Flash Defense, Sight Group
(24) 4" Change Environment, "Heat and Flames"
Powers Cost: 1116
Total Cost: 1368
Base Points: 75
15 Distinctive Features, "Aura of Power", concealable, major
5 Hunted,"Minions of Sauron", less powerful, harsh, appear 8-
10 Watched, "The Valar", more powerful, noncombat influence,
mild, appear 11-
5 Watched, "The Wise", less powerful, noncombat influence,
mild, appear 11-
20 Psychological Limitation," Opposition to Sauron", very common,
strong
15 Psychological Limitation, "Spirit of Compassion", common,
strong
15 Psychological Limitation, "Protective of Companions",
common, strong
10 Reputation, "Istari", occur 8- ,extreme reputation
10 Reputation,"Meddler", occur 11-
5 Rivalry,"Saruman", professional
15 Secret ID,"Bearer of the Ring Narya"
1099 "The Man from Aman" Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 1293
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 1368
After the destruction of his fana (material body) as Gandalf the Grey,
which occured while defeating the Balrog of Moria, the maiar Olorin
returned to the holy land of Aman to report to the Valar. Manwe gave
him a new body, more capable of holding his power, and he was
returned to Middle-Earth as Gandalf the White, now holding the power
and authority that had once been the assignment of the traitorous
Saruman.
Upon his return, Gandalf sought no more to work in secret, as he had
for two thousand years, but openly proclaimed his opposition to
Sauron, and sought to rally the flagging Free Peoples. He appeared
to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in the forest of Fangorn and bid
them track down and rescue the hobbits Merry and Pippin. Then
he traveled to Edoras, the capitol of Rohan, and threw off the evil
spells which Grima had laid upon the mind of Theoden, the old king.
From there, he travelled to Isengard, where he cast Saruman out
of the Order of the Istari, and pronounced the judgment of the Valar
upon him. He then went to Gondor, where he stopped the Lord of
the Nazgul and the army of Mordor from entering the gates of Minas
Tirith until the army of Rohan could arrive to rout them. He also
stopped the mad Steward, Denethor, from immolating his sick son,
Faramir. He stood with the Gondorian army at the Gates of the
Morannon
After the War of the Ring, Gandalf crowned Aragorn king of the
Reunited Kingdom. He left Middle-Earth for Aman with the Last
Riding of the Keepers of the Ring in Third Age 3021.
NOTES:
1) Gandalf's new body was impervious to any weapon or magic.
I thought of modelling this with the Spirit rules or with Desolid,
but I think the huge defenses listed above ought to do it.
2) As noted previously, I've toned down (slightly) the power
of the VPP's. Note that I've also eliminated the 0 END
requirement.
3) "Maiar" powers are severely limited in special effect.
Gandalf the Grey never used his powers on mortals;
Gandalf the White is more aggressive, throwing off Grima's
spells and undoing Saruman's. But he still does not use
blasting spells, nor does he fly or Jello-wrestle Sauron.
Spells typical of Gandalf are the contest of wills he held
with the Lord of the Nazgul (Ego Blasts), the freeing of
Theoden's mind (Dispel Magic or Psychic Surgery,
from The Complete Mentalist), or the disarming of
Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas (Telekinesis).
4) I have chosen not to list Shadowfax as a power or follower.
It was a close call. You may see it differently.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:04:39 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>>As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
>>blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
>>failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack. Hmm..
>>Filksinger? This looks like your realm.
>
>
>Supes has to pay for it, he's got an Energy Blast (or perhaps a RKA) thats
>bought triggered "when someone blocks one of my punches" with no range and
>the special effect of "I hit so hard you take damage despite your block",
>it's pricey, but hey it's superman. It also makes a rude ability for a
>master villian or one of his lieutenants.
> Max Callahan
That last line should have ended "in a martial arts game", I really must
work on my proofreading.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:12:14 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
<snip>
>make your syllogism Strength and see if you object:
>
>a. 15 Strength is twice that of 10 Strength.
>b. Accomplishing a basic strength roll, 10 STR has a barely decreased
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that
12-.
I'm not certain how that is supposed to make it look better. If anything, it
makes me feel worse about the HERO System skill and CHA roll system.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:02:37 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
>What if your special effect is that you physically *block* the attack. For
>example, suppose you have a shield that's a focus for +4OCV with blocks. If
>you block an attack that's big enough to destroy the shield, would you get
>the +4OCV?
>
When one is blocking with a shield it's a) out on an arm so that the
movement of the arm will act as a shock adsorber and b) generally held at
an angle to the incoming attack so the attack will glance off the shield.
Used this way it's possible to block hits that would break the shield if
the hit was targeted directly at it
>I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a
>problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the interest
>of realism. I know that realism is something of a dirty word with some
>members of the list here but it's important to my game.
>
In fantasy hero page 82 the section on Breaking weapons
"Weapon breakage is ignored while blocking and attacking. If the GM
wants to check weapon breakage under these circumstances, a weapon breaks
if it takes more than 2x its DEF while blocking an attack or delivers more
than 3x its DEF while making an attack" and weapons have DEF = to their
Active points /5. That dosn't help with the hand to hand side of the
problem, but it does cover all the weapon examples we've seen so far (and
it lets you break your sword if you do a pushed haymaker with it).
Max Callahan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:12:39 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
>question???
>
>When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people
> or would he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so?
You must purchase the Advantage on any attack power used from
Desolidification that affects the real world. Technically, any power
whatsoever, but I'd probably allow exceptions for a few, such as Mind Link,
on the assumption that since you are visible and can talk, communication is
possible in other forms.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:53:21 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
<snip>
>I'd actually probably be comfortable with simply buying PD and ED
>defined as "genre defenses." Automatic rolling with the blow, as it
>were. That'd require a strong GM hand to avoid twinkism, but it would
>certainly be the simplest way to simulate the genre convention.
That's a decent one. I'd prefer Damage Reduction. My original suggestion
wasn't intended to reduce all damage, however, only to avoid death without
appearing superhuman.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:40:12 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:
>
>DT> That works for NPC Bricks who have some sort of Psychological
>DT> Limitation, but what about Mr. Grey-Green-Berserk-Guy?
>
>When has Mr. Grey-Green-Berserk-Guy ever used his full strength against
>someone it would instantly pulverize?
When going up against heroes, it was my impression that he did _frequently_,
when he was berserk. He just never quite seemed to connect well enough to
kill them.
>This is the same thing. Even the most careless, berzerk brick will never
>(okay, almost never) hit someone with his full strength unless that someone
>could take it. It is not a matter of psychology or disadvantages or game
>mechanics. It is totally unrealistic, but it is a convention of genre.
I don't think that the list generally agrees with your contention that it is
a part of the genre.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:56:12 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Proposal for new sourcebook
Message text written by Michael Surbrook
>David Mattingly is working on the Champions Genre book, which (I think)
will contain material much like this. You may want to write to him, he's
on this list (or was).<
Some weeks ago, Dave Mattingly posted something akin to a working table of
contents for the genre book. From what I recall, it seemed to mostly be GM
advice such as enforcing genre conventions, etc. I was hoping that the
Genre book would contain (in addition to other stuff) something similar to
the "Ultimate List of Powers" that I suggested, but I didn't get hat
impression from what Dave listed as his plans for the book. I'll be
delighted if I was mistaken, though. I still think the Champions Genre
book has the potential to be the single most valuable resource to me as a
superhero GM, regardless of whether it has the "big list of power
implementations" or not.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:32:32 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"F" == Filksinger <filksinger@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Batman went up against the Hulk and attacked him unarmed hand to hand.
>F> Care to try again?
>
>Neat trick, that. The DC/Marvel crossovers always were a bit whacked in
>the head.
Didn't last long. Batman tried some nerve strikes, noted that they had
effect, but he would be dead long before they took the Hulk down (NND vs.
Rigid Defenses, with Hulk-level STUN and REC, it fits HERO System), and
changed his mind, fast.
Even if it was a bit whacked, it is hardly the only example a dedicated
comic book enthusiast could name.
>[...]
>
>F> Hero Games suggested Damage Reduction quite a while ago for heroes or
>F> villains who didn't appear superhuman, but somehow kept on coming.
>F> What's wrong with that?
>
>Nothing.
>
>What is 'wrong' is your application of that to *ANY* low-defense character,
>like Cyclops per your example. Cyclops does *NOT* keep coming after being
>hit repeatedly. On the relatively rare occasions he is hit hard, he goes
>down and stays down.
Look again. In my example, the character, if hit hard, _does_ go down and
stays down. The _only_ thing my construct gave him was "he'll live". No STUN
defense was included. He is knocked out as easily as before, he just is
capable of returning to the fight reasonably soon, say, after some bed rest.
I'd even limit it further. Damage Reduction, BODY Only, 25%, only if attack
does 1x victim's BODY score or more, plus Damage Reduction, BODY Only, 50%,
only if attack equals 2x victim's BODY or more, plus Damage Reduction, BODY
Only, 75%, only if attack equals victim's 6x BODY or more.
The idea is a power whose only purpose is to prevent death, without making
the character appear superhuman. Its only purpose is to keep the character
alive on that day when he eventually does get splatted, however careful he
is.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:29:07 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
<snip>
>As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
>blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
>failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack. Hmm..
>Filksinger? This looks like your realm.
Maybe Batman bought the power, "50% Damage Reduction, BODY only, only vs
attacks that do 1x BODY or greater", for just such emergencies?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:13:05 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets mostly out of
>F> the way"?
>
>Um... Filk? Have you read anything I've written? What is wrong with it is
>that in a 4-color campaign it should not be a requirement.
OK, OK. It's just that I got the impression from your original post that you
objected to it as a construct.
>An 8 DEF
>character will not have to worry about being slammed by a 70 Strength
>opponent because said opponent will *NEVER* go after that character with
>more than his casual Strength.
I can recall several times when that was not the case in comics I have read,
and I have read comics for about two years straight in my entire life, about
14 years ago. Common sense says, "Avoid the heavy hitter if you aren't well
armored." Genre convention says, "Even when you are outclassed and certain
to get killed, you don't back down when other people's lives are on the
line."
I'm sorry, but I do not agree that it is genre convention. What appears to
me to be much more of a genre convention is that, when the whimpy-DEF
superhero finally gets caught in the explosion, crushed by the falling
building, or smacked casually by Juggernaut (whose Causual STR is reported
to readily kill normals as tough as an unarmored Collosus), somehow, they
just don't get smashed.
>If your players are ignoring this convention of the genre, don't reward the
>victims, punnish the perps by taking away experience (bad role-playing).
"I'm sorry, I know that your character is probably the last hope for
stopping Force One, but you aren't allowed to fight him, because if he hits
you, you are dead. That doesn't happen in comic books."
Sorry. Even if I agreed that it was a genre convention (which I most
certainly do not), I refuse to be so heavy handed in enforcing it.
Superheroes fight who they have to; if they have to fight someone who can
splat them, they do. That _is_ genre.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:05:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
> From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
>
> In fantasy hero page 82 the section on Breaking weapons
>
> "Weapon breakage is ignored while blocking and attacking. If the GM
> wants to check weapon breakage under these circumstances, a weapon breaks
> if it takes more than 2x its DEF while blocking an attack or delivers more
> than 3x its DEF while making an attack" and weapons have DEF = to their
> Active points /5. That dosn't help with the hand to hand side of the
> problem, but it does cover all the weapon examples we've seen so far (and
> it lets you break your sword if you do a pushed haymaker with it).
>
Actually, maybe you could do something comparable for a hand-to-hand block,
based on the DEF and/or BODY of the character blocking versus the damage
caused by the incoming attack ?
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:41:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Character: Gandalf The White
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Scott Nolan wrote:
> 362 Package,"Narya The Ring of Fire", IIF,0 END Persistent
> (13) KS: Fire Magic 20-
> (108) 10D6 Aid, "To VPP", Use Risks Drawing Sauron's Attention,
> Extra Time (1 turn), Continuous, Uncontrolled
> Only for Fire Magic or to bring Courage and Strength
I don't think anyone commented on this before, but: is 'Use risks drawing
Sauron's attention' really a limitation, or does Sauron just have the
power 'Sense Ring Use' with a metric buttload of Telescopic etc.? I'd be
inclined to say the latter...
> (63) 3D6 Aid to Presence, fade rate: per day, Usable By Others,
> doesn't lose power, usable at range, x16 # Of Targets
Er...doesn't lose power? What does this mean? (Sorry if this got brought
up before, I may have missed it...)
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:28:02 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
Filksinger wrote:
>] >For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when
>] >target can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of
>] Severe
>] >Injury. This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes
>] can manage to
>] avoid
>] >serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's
>] >unconscious, but when he wakes up, he's only slightly
>] bruised. He failed
>] his "Dive
>] >for Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get
>] partial
>] >cover before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his
>] chest, but it
>]
>] >missed the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on.
>]
These are definitely ideas with merit. My only concern would be, what
if you required all (or even just some) of the characters in your group
to take these or similar powers? Would someone be put off the notion of
playing their Longshot-style probability-manipulator because everyone
else would be stealing his thunder? I've built a few characters along
those lines, and they're fun to play, but only if that's "their thing",
and not something everyone else can do... Of course, if you check with
your players and no one cares, I say go for it.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:10:15 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
>>make your syllogism Strength and see if you object:
>>
>>a. 15 Strength is twice that of 10 Strength.
>>b. Accomplishing a basic strength roll, 10 STR has a barely decreased
>>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that
>12-.
>
>I'm not certain how that is supposed to make it look better. If anything, it
>makes me feel worse about the HERO System skill and CHA roll system.
Its not neccessarily, its just that one tends to react less poorly to the
way strength is set up than any other characteristic. What was missed in
the post about Intelligence is that +5 points of INT does NOT neccessarily
make you smarter, it makes you quicker of thought and better of memory,
which changes to me at least how it feels. If you say that 10 INT is 100
IQ and 15 INT is 200 IQ (double the intelligence for the purposes of this
argument, IQ actually measures... how well you take IQ tests) then it looks
godawful to say that you only get +1 to your roll. But if you say it
doubles your ability of recollection and how quickly you percieve and
respond mentally, it is less offensive.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #188
*****************************
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 09:38 AM