Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 194
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 8:12 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #194
champ-l-digest Monday, February 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 194
In this issue:
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Re: Enemies of San Angelo cover
Re: Desolidification
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
RE: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Desolidification
Re: The Ultimate Super Hero (TUSH)
Dark Champions
Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Dark Champions
Re: Dark Champions
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Character: Legolas
Re: Desolidification
Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
Unsubscribe
Desolidification: Another Question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:45:41 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
>quick poll.
>
>does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that:
>
>a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence.
>b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely
>that 12-.
>
>Or is it just me being petty?
>
>Phil
Just you being petty. It works fine for me.
Intelligence is so hard to measure and discuss accurately anyway, that
any game system's approach to the subject is going to fall apart under
scrutiny. The problem here not the game system but our approasch to
thinking about intelligence.
Now as for the rest of the 3d6 system used in HSR, I personally like it.
I'll refer you a munchkinesque character I once had in a GURPS game
called "Super Ninja" All the ninja skills and a bizzarely superhuman
DEX. (This was supposed to be in what in HSR would be a heroic level
game)
In HSR, characters can over inflate some of their stats but it's evened
out in the systemry. They're happy because they have a 20 DEX, I'm happy
because they're still rolling 13- to do anything with it.
It works.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech..."
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:12:13 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Enemies of San Angelo cover
> Keep in mind that there is more to being the "most important" heroes than
>mere point totals. What's more, we can't assume that every group will be using
>250 point characters (though my assumption is that the majority of Champions
>players will).
I wasn't talking about point totals per se, so much as the range of attacks
and defenses...and I can't help but think that if there are NPC heroes out
there with a significantly higher range of these than the PCs, then unless
there is some other reason they're less active or less available than the
PCs, it's still going to be difficult for this to automatically mean they're
the primary heroes. SA seemed to rather assume this too, since the
apparently fairly experienced 'native' team was not particularly high powered.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:39:33 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
[Desol Mentalists must buy Affects Real World
>This almost seems unfair, though, unless the character has spent the
>extra 20 points to be unaffected by mental powers.
>
>The point of the +2 Advantage for attacks is "Ha! I can touch you,
>but you can't touch me!" That's not the case for mental powers, at
least not
>where the base level of Desolid is being used.
>
>Desolid characters, by default, are themselves affected by mental
>powers. In effect, they aren't Desolid with regard to that class of
power.
>Why should he have to pay triple the cost to target someone in the
>material world -- with a power that *anyone* in the material world can
use on
>him?
>
>Damon
Compare a mentalist trying to use his on the Harbinger of Justice and a
Desolid Mentalist trying to use his mental Powers on the Harbinger of
Justice. One winds up riddled with bullets one winds up untouched.
(Until the Harbinger can get his special "Affects Desolid" bullets...)
The fact of the matter is that a normal mentalist is not immune to
counter attacks by other types of characters (Blaster, bricks or
gun-toting lunatics), while your desolid mentalist is to all but other
mentlists.
So he pays more point for the priveldge. Q.E.D.
see?
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech..."
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: 07 Feb 1999 14:29:45 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
MS> Wrong. Batman is a superheroic character being run in a superheroic
MS> universe and on a superheroic point scale.
Then by definition he is *NOT* a normal person and should not be used as an
example of such.
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------------------------------
Date: 07 Feb 1999 14:28:47 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Really? So, if someone claims (which I do not) that every time you
F> repeat yourself, that you are being dogmatic and refuse to consider
F> other views, their answer has merit?<G>
If what I am repeating accurately models the effects presented in each new
example, then what I am repeating should at least be considered to have
some merit.
What I am refusing is your insistence on rewarding low but otherwise
reasonable DEF characters with defenses that their concepts neither deserve
nor require in a properly balanced campaign.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:18:34 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>But, you know, if you can't bend and improvise to make sure the players
>have a good time, the game becomes adversarial. Surely you agree that
>that's the worse thing that can happen?
I disagree with the premise. The unwillingness to comprimise the situation
does not imply adverseriality; it implies neutrality. They aren't the same
thing.
>
>And if a GM is prepared enough, even if something happens on the fly,
>you can improvise something without violating the internal logic of
>either the adventure or the world.
And this is a point that I don't agree is universally true. I think in many
cases it would require far more contrivance than I want to see even in a
superhero worl.
>
>>>Problem is, often they've already asked me
>>> for some detail before it comes up. And I
>>> intensely dislike doing retcon patches.
>
>Well then, you should know your characters well enough to be prepared
>when/if "Brittle Man" decides to take on "The Massive Destructor".
Actually, I just make sure no one is that brittle.
>you know, Wayne, early on I said something to the effect that I give
>them opportunities to work things out for themselves, but that if they
>proceeded to ignore those opportunities, anddecided to face down the
>Massive Destructor regardless of their imbalance, they deserved to be
>squished. But I'm not going to squish a character until I give him
>several chances to avoid the squishing (and use both his brain and
>clever role-playing) in the process....and isn't role-playing, and not
>combat, what this game is all about? :)
It's about both to me, actually. As I've said to other many times, I don't
consider one part of the term 'role-playing game' more important than the other.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:19:55 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
> So, once CCGs have driven the last nail into the coffin of 'paper and
> pencil' RPGs, we can look forward to playing endles variations of
> Ultima On-line?
>
> I will try to take comfort in that thought....
Of course not: don't be silly. Ultima Online (and Everquest, Middle
Earth, and others coming out) is not an on-line role-playing game
(regardless of the press). It is an on-line setting in which
role-playing can take place if the individuals playing it want to do so
(if they don't get disrupted by the jerks whe think they are cigarrettes
or something). Completely different thing. Much as I might sometimes
enjoy UO, it has nothing to do with role-playing unless the people
involved decide to do so, and it never will.
An on-line role-playing game would be more like WebRPG, where you have a
place to set up and run your game. There might someday be nifty graphics
and/or game engines in the system based on your favorite game, but
you'll ultimately need something with a GM out there running it (unless
you have a true AI), with many bells and whistles. So quit your griping:
that won't be a bad thing, it will just computerize the "pens and
papers".
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: 07 Feb 1999 14:25:13 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> At least in superheroic games, I don't, to be honest. In many ways the
WS> block is already less attractive than the dodge, so I saw no reason to
WS> make it even moreso.
What makes Block useful as a maneuver, aside from the setup aspect if
fighting some of the same Speed, is that it gives you two okay chances to
avoid taking damage. Dodge gives you one good chance. A while back I did
some figuring. IIRC, Block is mathematically superior to Dodge if your
Blocking OCV is better than your opponent's attacking OCV. Otherwise Dodge
is a better choice.
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------------------------------
Date: 07 Feb 1999 14:17:24 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
N> Strength is largely irrelevant mostly because there really isn't /that/
N> much human variance in strength. I have never seen an aikidoka attempt
N> (or even suggest that one /should/ attempt) blocking a car or a falling
N> telephone pole or anything of the sort.
In game mechanics terms, these are AoE attacks, which cannot be blocked
anyway.
[...]
N> Ahh. But then again, there's no rule that I know of for breaking the
N> object used in a block. (If there were, the whole Batman scenario would
N> work just fine: Batman's arms are not strong enough to use to block
N> Superman's punch - so they broke.)
If that is what you want, try playing Phoenix Command. :)
[...]
N> I think the point was that if Batman hadn't done what he did, he would
N> have been /dead/.
No, he would not. Superman would never kill Batman, voluntarilly or
involuntarilly. There is absolutely no question of that in my mind.
Therefore, a mechanic that allows for that result is wrong. It does not
fit the genre.
(Batman *did* kill Superman once, but that was in a situation where
Superman's invulnerability kicked in retroactivly and un-killed him, which
is exactly what Batman knew would happen. This was pre-Crisis, FWIW).
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:27:09 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>I have just realized part of the reason for this argument. When I saw
>this post, I suddenly realized that I agreed completely with Wayne, in
>spite of the fact that I was the one that created the power that
>started it all. While I cannot speak for everyone who agrees with me,
>for myself, I was viewing Wayne's position entirely wrong.
Well, actually Filk, I never thought your idea was a particularly bad one; I
was mostly taking issue with the side that thinks it's unnecessary, because
the only way i see to do so requires a level of contrivance and
interventionism I don't find appropriate in a game at all. I don't
particularly feel a need for your approach because I think at least as far
as what Hero calls normal damage, even heroes in the comics who are
theoretically in the normal range seem to take a hell of a lot of it and
somehow not only not get killed but often not stay down, so the high normal
defense plus a little orthodox armor approach works for me. But I can see
from where you're coming from where your approach might be superior.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:24:32 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
>An on-line role-playing game would be more like WebRPG, where you have a
>place to set up and run your game. There might someday be nifty graphics
>and/or game engines in the system based on your favorite game, but
>you'll ultimately need something with a GM out there running it (unless
>you have a true AI), with many bells and whistles. So quit your griping:
>that won't be a bad thing, it will just computerize the "pens and
>papers".
Feh. No computer game will ever replace a group sitting in the basement,
laughing and passing the chips and dip.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:22:08 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>F> Really? So, if someone claims (which I do not) that every time you
>F> repeat yourself, that you are being dogmatic and refuse to consider
>F> other views, their answer has merit?<G>
>
>If what I am repeating accurately models the effects presented in each new
>example, then what I am repeating should at least be considered to have
>some merit.
>
>What I am refusing is your insistence on rewarding low but otherwise
>reasonable DEF characters with defenses that their concepts neither deserve
>nor require in a properly balanced campaign.
I believe its time to let it go, guys.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:35:21 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
At 11:39 AM 2/6/1999 -0800, Jay P Hailey wrote:
>[Desol Mentalists must buy Affects Real World
>
>>This almost seems unfair, though, unless the character has spent the
>>extra 20 points to be unaffected by mental powers.
>>
>>The point of the +2 Advantage for attacks is "Ha! I can touch you,
>>but you can't touch me!" That's not the case for mental powers, at
>least not
>>where the base level of Desolid is being used.
>>
>>Desolid characters, by default, are themselves affected by mental
>>powers. In effect, they aren't Desolid with regard to that class of
>power.
>>Why should he have to pay triple the cost to target someone in the
>>material world -- with a power that *anyone* in the material world can
>use on
>>him?
>>
>>Damon
>
>Compare a mentalist trying to use his on the Harbinger of Justice and a
>Desolid Mentalist trying to use his mental Powers on the Harbinger of
>Justice. One winds up riddled with bullets one winds up untouched.
>(Until the Harbinger can get his special "Affects Desolid" bullets...)
>
>The fact of the matter is that a normal mentalist is not immune to
>counter attacks by other types of characters (Blaster, bricks or
>gun-toting lunatics), while your desolid mentalist is to all but other
>mentlists.
>
>So he pays more point for the priveldge. Q.E.D.
>
>see?
Apparently *you* didn't see. My fault for not explaining in a clear manner.
First, let me stress that I began my original comment by saying "this
*almost* seems unfair". I wasn't suggesting any part of the system was
broken or in need of revision, just making an observation. I'm afraid I
don't see your point about the Desolid character being subject to other
attacks forms. How is that relevant to the fairness, or lack thereof, of
making Desolid characters pay for an Advantage that is not required of
solid characters in *exactly* the same circumstances? Why should the use
of mental powers be a one-way thing?
Suppose the Harbinger of Justice wants to be able to shoot Desolid
characters. He must buy an attack with the Affects Desolid Advantage in
order to do so. It is only right and proper that a Desolid character who
wants to shoot the Harbinger (or indeed affect him with any physical or
energy-based attack) must buy an attack with the Affects Physical World in
order to do so. I have no qualms about that.
However, suppose Mind Slayer wants to attack a Desolid character. She has
an EC of Mental Powers which give her a variety of attack and defense
possibilities. She can attack the Desolid character with impunity, without
any need for an Affects Desolid Advantage on any of her powers *because
Desolid characters are affected by Mental Powers by default*.
So my only question was, it is entirely fair to make the Desolid mentalist
pay triple the cost for his mental powers in order to affect the physical
world *with those powers* when the reverse isn't true?
The mentalist should absolutely pay for the advantage to affect the
material world, for any power which would require that a solid character
buy the Affects Desolid Advantage in order to affect the immaterial world;
mental powers do not carry that requirement for solid characters, so I'm
not sure its fair to require it of Desolid characters.
That last paragraph was poorly worded, but I think you can get the sense of
it.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:03:26 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super Hero (TUSH)
Message text written by Dave Mattingly:
>But the ultimate powers list is still there.<
Sounds great. I would be looking forward to the Champions genre book
either way, but having an "ultimate powers" section really puts it over the
edge as one of the most valuable sourcebooks I could own for my Champions
game.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:33:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Dark Champions
I'm pretty much a straight 4-color guy (Avengers is one of my current
favorites...the Marvel Knights dark stuff was interesting at first, but is
starting to get tedious except for the Doctor Strange limited series).
However, my whole group has been clamoring for a Dark Champions campaign,
so I thought maybe I'd give it another look. I haven't followed the Dark
Champions releases at all. The only book I own is the basic Dark
Champions: Heroes of Vengeance book. Oh, and I also have Creatures of the
Night: Horror Enemies, which I guess leans more toward use in Dark
Champions. Anyway, could someone give me a rundown (summary and opinion)
of the rest of the Dark Champions line? I'm guessing that the Hudson City
sourcebook (I think it's called Justice Not Law?) would probably be a good
one for me to get, but I don't know anything about the other books. Also,
would it be worthwhile to track down a copy of that Hudson City software
from years ago? I believe it's a 16-bit program (either DOS or Windows
3.x), so that sorta makes me less interested in it, but it seemed like a
neat concept.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 17:14:19 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
At 02:11 PM 2/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> >you have a true AI), with many bells and whistles. So quit your griping:
>> >that won't be a bad thing, it will just computerize the "pens and
>> >papers".
>>
>> Feh. No computer game will ever replace a group sitting in the basement,
>> laughing and passing the chips and dip.
>
>Hmm. First of all, I never said a "computer game" would: I'm talking
>about using the computer as a facilitator for a role-playing game, with
>a GM and so on. The phrase "computer game" belittles what I was talking
>about by putting it in the same category as Quake or Civilization or
>something (not that those can't be fun, but they are certainly not the
>same). This facilitation would include being able to get people together
>on-line for the game.
>
>Second of all, I also never said that the computer would replace that.
>But a great many of us don't have the luxury of getting together the
>group to sit in the basement, laughing etc. If it's a choice between
>gaming on-line with real people, or playing a CRPG, or not gaming at
>all, I know which one I'll take, thank you very much.
>
>This is a bit of a sore point for me: I've found in the recent past that
>it is sometimes difficult for me to get together with a live group, but
>have been in several on-line games and enjoyed it. To see people deride
>and belittle what I can get with "it's not as good" is, frankly,
>somewhat annoying.
Alright. I'm sorry if it came across that way. For the record, I run
- -two- PBEMs and play in six more. I like PBEM. It has several
advantages over face-to-face gaming, even. What I meant to convey
is that I don't buy into the evolutionary model being proposed. I
- -don't- think CCGs or PBEMs will replace FTF gaming, nor would
I want them to. In truth, PBEM is not -In my opinion- as good
as FTF gaming. But it has several strong advantages and it
was not my intention to belittle or deride.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:42:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
On 7 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> N> I think the point was that if Batman hadn't done what he did, he would
> N> have been /dead/.
>
> No, he would not. Superman would never kill Batman, voluntarilly or
> involuntarilly. There is absolutely no question of that in my mind.
> Therefore, a mechanic that allows for that result is wrong. It does not
> fit the genre.
And there you have it. I think it is this paragrah more than anything
else that has made me realize how futile this attempt at a rational
discussion is (with Rat anyway). I'm outta here.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I don't buy temporary insanity as a murder defense, 'cause people
kill people. That's an animal instinct. I think breaking into
someone's home and ironing all their clothes is temporary insanity."
Sue Kolinsky
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:21:38 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions
At 05:33 PM 2/7/1999 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Champions. Anyway, could someone give me a rundown (summary and opinion)
>of the rest of the Dark Champions line? I'm guessing that the Hudson City
>sourcebook (I think it's called Justice Not Law?) would probably be a good
>one for me to get, but I don't know anything about the other books. Also,
>would it be worthwhile to track down a copy of that Hudson City software
>from years ago? I believe it's a 16-bit program (either DOS or Windows
>3.x), so that sorta makes me less interested in it, but it seemed like a
>neat concept.
Dark Champions paper products (there's the Hero Plus "book", Widows &
Orphans) include Justice, Not Law as well as Hudson City Blues, Shadows of
the City, Underworld Enemies, An Eye For An Eye, Murderer's Row and GRG's
Heroic Adventures Volume 2.
Shadows of the City and the GRG book are strictly adventure books. Shadows
has three detailed multipart adventures in about 140 pages; Heroic
Adventures has six scenarios in about 100 pages.
Underworld Enemies and Murderer's Row are both villain books. I think
Murderer's Row has a bit more variety in the choice of villains, as it
includes a couple of mystic cults, and some Oriental groups.
Justice, Not Law is an indispensible book *if* you plan on running a game
in Hudson City, but only then. Otherwise it's a nice book, but far from
indispensible, as it concerns itself with detailing the city, not the genre
(well-covered elsewhere, after all).
Hudson City Blues describes itself as a sourcebook, but is mostly
adventures. It does introduce and detail The Machine, a sophisticated
self-replicating OS whose goal is to investigate the world around it, which
could be a very interesting part of the game.
An Eye for An Eye is an excellent sourcebook, with information on criminal
psychology, advanced forensics, illegal drugs, equipment and gadgets, and
various new options for character creation. Personally, I wouldn't run a
DC campaign without this book.
I can't tell you whether the Goldtree software would be worthwhile, but I
can tell you where to find it.
The Goldtree Engine was DOS-based, but Kingspoint was for Windows 3.1.
Hudson City Sector One was meant to be used with Kingspoint, but the Hudson
City software is no longer available from Goldtree. The Goldtree website
notes that Hudson City was written by "Steve Long and a team of really
talented and dedicated individuals".
The Sentry Box, on the other hand, has both Kingspoint and Hudson City.
Prices in Canadian dollars are $82.75 and $24.50 respectively (about $55.00
and $16.00 US).
http://www.sentrybox.com/games/access/games-a3.html
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:47:10 EST
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions
> Anyway, could someone give me a rundown (summary and opinion)
>of the rest of the Dark Champions line? I'm guessing that the Hudson
City
>sourcebook (I think it's called Justice Not Law?) would probably be a
good
>one for me to get, but I don't know anything about the other books.
I don't have all of the books, but the ones I have:
"Justice, Not Law": The Hudson City book, not as detailed as San Angelo
but there's enough there to get you started. It also has several
villians and some generic maps/floorplans, and expanded notes on some of
the criminal groups from Dark Champs. If you're running in the Champions
Universe, the chapter on world politics (which refers to some CU
countries) might make more sense than it did to me, but you won't lose
anything by skipping that section.
"An Eye For An Eye": Currently, AFAIK, only available in Hero Plus
format. I really don't want to get _that_ argument running again, but I
would advise getting the book. The sourcebook ranges from drug addiction
(and some fictional drugs) to an expanded car chase system to more
weapons and vehicles to a Dark Champions rewrite of Raven (from the old
Super-Agents book). (Unfortunately, the big history goof in Raven's
background didn't get edited out, but it's not likely to come up in
play.)
"Murderers' Row": An enemies book that lives up to its title -- they're
all killers. Most of the character entries were written up as files from
the Master of Crime, which personally I found a bit annoying, but that's
a matter of personal taste. There's also references to characters who
don't appear in the book, and who aren't cross-referenced to another
book. How much of this book you can use will depend on the tone of your
game. The appendix on homicide investigation might be useful, but if
that's the only thing you're buying this for try to get it used.
>Also,
>would it be worthwhile to track down a copy of that Hudson City software
>from years ago? I believe it's a 16-bit program (either DOS or Windows
>3.x), so that sorta makes me less interested in it, but it seemed like a
>neat concept.
I've seen references to this program, but I've never heard just what it
did. If anyone on the list has information on it, would you mind passing
it on to me as well?
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:04:32 +0000
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
(lots of PGP stuff deleted because it is irritating...
>
> You forgot something: a properly prepared weightlifter would get upwards of
> a +5 bonus to his Strength roll for his preparation. His 14- roll becomes
> a 19- roll, which is impossible to fail on a 3d6 roll.
But...an 18 is always a failure, even with rolls higher than 18 (ALIMG)
Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 02:53:28 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Legolas
LEGOLAS, PRINCE OF MIRKWOOD
10 STR 0
17 DEX 21
13 CON 6
11 BODY 2
15 INT 5
16 EGO 12
16 PRE 6
18 COM 4
4 PD 2
3 ED 0
4 SPD 13
7 REC 4
40 END 7
35 STUN 12
Characteristics Cost: 94
6 Life Support, immune to disease, immune to aging
6 +2 Enhanced Perception with all senses
10 Eidetic Memory
5 Ultraviolet Vision
3 Ultrasonic Hearing
3 Lightsleep
4 +2" Running
4 +3 Stealth,Only in Woodland Environment
14 8" Flight, Only to Leave no Trail when walking, or to walk
across snow, 0 END
4 WF, Common Melee, Common Missile
8 1 Levels, all combat
9 3 Levels: Bows
4 2 Rng Levels: Bows
6 15- Contact: Thranduil
2 11- Contact: Dain II Ironfoot
1 8- Contact: Elrond
1 8- Contact: Celeborn and Galadriel
5 Member of Aristocracy
10 Money,wealthy
7 Acrobatics 14-
7 Climbing 14-
9 Concealment 15-
7 High Society 14-
7 Mimicry 13-
3 Riding 12-
9 Stealth 15-
9 Survival 14-
5 Tracking 13-
1 Lang: Sindarin, native, literacy
2 Lang: Quenya, fluent conversation, literacy
4 Lang: Westron, fluent w/accent, literacy
7 AK: Mirkwood 16-
4 AK: Rhovanion 13-
5 KS: Elven History 14-
25 Package, "The Bow of Galadriel", STR Min 10, OAF,
32 recoverable Charges, Gestures
(19) 2D6 Killing Attack Ranged
(6) 2 Levels
Powers Cost: 216
Total Cost: 310
Base Points: 75
10 Distinctive Features, "Wood-Elf", concealable, minor
8 Watched, "Thranduil", more powerful, noncombat influence,
mild, appear 8-
10 Psychological Limitation, "Hatred of Sauron", uncommon, strong
15 Psychological Limitation, "Protective of Kingdom of
Mirkwood", common, strong
10 Psychological Limitation, "Views nonelves as children",
common, moderate
10 Public ID, "Prince of Mirkwood"
5 Reputation, "Deadly Archer", occur 8-
167 Dead-Eye Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 235
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 310
Legolas is the son of Thranduil, King of the Sindarin kingdom of
Mirkwood. His date of birth is not specified, though it is probably
some time in the Third Age. In Third Age 3019, he travelled to
Imladris and became the elven representative among the Fellowship
of the Ring.
He became the first elf to enter Khazad-dum in over a thousand
years. In Lorien, Galadriel foresaw that Legolas would never again
be content with Middle-Earth once he saw the sea and heard the ancient
call of the Vala, Ulmo. He also became fast friends with Gimli the dwarf,
a friendship that would last beyond the confines of the world.
Legolas journeyed with Gimli and Aragorn in search of the kidnapped
Merry and Pippin, and fought beside them at the Battle of Helm's Deep.
He accompanied them through the Paths of the Dead, and fought at
Pelargir and the Pelennor Fields. While at Pelargir, he first saw the
sea, and true to Galadriel's vision, the desire for Aman was awakened
in him.
After the War, Legolas led a band of elves from Mirkwood to Ithilien,
where the helped to heal the war-ravaged land and make it the fairest
of the human lands. After the death of Elessar in Fourth Age 120,
Legolas at last followed his heart and took ship for Aman. With him
on this journey went his friend Gimli, the only dwarf ever to make that
journey.
Legolas was tall and golden haired, of noble bearing, though not as
tall or regal as those elves who, like Galadriel and Elrond, had seen
the Two Trees, or bore the blood of those who had. He dressed in
the green and brown of his people. Legolas, like all elves, was quick
to laugh or sing, but equally quick with a bow or haughty word, if he
felt the situation called for it. He called Gimli and Aragorn "children",
but in jest, not derision.
Legolas was able to run across a rope as easily as running on
land, and was able to run across a snow drift without sinking in
or even leaving a footprint.
He bore a longbow given him in Lorien by Galadriel that was longer
and more powerful than those used by the folk of Mirkwood and which
was strung with elven hair.
NOTES:
1) Legolas would be a good candidate for the use of the ranged
martial arts maneuvers in The Ultimate Martial Artist.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:04:24 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
>First, let me stress that I began my original comment by saying "this
>*almost* seems unfair". I wasn't suggesting any part of the system was
>broken or in need of revision, just making an observation. I'm afraid I
>don't see your point about the Desolid character being subject to other
>attacks forms. How is that relevant to the fairness, or lack thereof, of
>making Desolid characters pay for an Advantage that is not required of
>solid characters in *exactly* the same circumstances? Why should the use
>of mental powers be a one-way thing?
Because vulnerability is not symmetrical. Everyone is effected by mental
powers, but not everyone has one. A desolid character doesn't expect to run
into a mentalist constantly...even if there's one on an oppositing group he
has to deal with, most of the group can be ignored. On the other end, he
can _always_ use whatever power he has for the most part...at least within
the run of normal people, all his targets are vulnerable to attack.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:10:04 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]]
>Alright. I'm sorry if it came across that way. For the record, I run
>-two- PBEMs and play in six more. I like PBEM. It has several
>advantages over face-to-face gaming, even. What I meant to convey
>is that I don't buy into the evolutionary model being proposed. I
>-don't- think CCGs or PBEMs will replace FTF gaming, nor would
>I want them to. In truth, PBEM is not -In my opinion- as good
>as FTF gaming. But it has several strong advantages and it
>was not my intention to belittle or deride.
I still don't think you're getting the sort of thing he's talking about;
playing realtime with other live people over the computer, where the people
can still exchange comments and tell the GM what they're doing, they're just
doing it over a computer...and perhaps the computer is taking a lot of the
bookkeeping aspects of the game over at the same time. Having MUSHed for a
while, I suspect such a thing is not an unviable future path for future
RPGing, and isn't, other than medium, that different than the experience we
know. Some people may not take to it because they don't like the typing
(though with voice recognition, that's not necessarily an indefinite limit)
or for other reasons, and obviously the penetration of computers and
internet access would have to be more complete for it to be _really_
practical, but I suspect both of these are going to be progressively less of
a problem over time.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:56:19 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Unsubscribe
Unsubscribe
"Forget the fact we live in this bucket! Forget the fact I can't buy
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_______________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:01:05 -0500
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
Subject: Desolidification: Another Question
In the BBB, it says that a desolid character is immune to NND's. It also
says that they can walk through solid objects, but if they don't have LS:
Doesn't (or self-contained) breathe, they will take damage.
One of my NPC's has an NND, a grenade with the sfx that it creates a vacuum
and sucks away all the air in a 1-hex area, so anyone in that hex can't
breathe.
Given that the BBB says that desolid characters are immune to NND's, but
still need to be able to breathe, would the above attack affect the desolid
character?
Lisa Hartjes
Lead Developer, The Crimson Covenant
beren@unforgettable.com
http://roswell.fortunecity.com/daniken/79
ICQ: Berengiere (9062561)
If the GM smiles, run. If she laughs, it's too late...
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #194
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Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 10:30 AM