From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 6:04 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #195 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Monday, February 8 1999        Volume 01 : Number 195 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
    Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
    Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Dark Champions 
    Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
    Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
    Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: Character: Gollum 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
    Re: Desolidification 
    RE: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
    Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
    Re: Character: Gollum 
    Sanity in the HERO system 
    Re: Desolidification 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
    Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
    Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
    Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    RE: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
    Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
    RE: Sanity in the HERO system 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
    Campaign Ideas ? 
    Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
    Re: Character: Gollum 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 13:17:33  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
 
On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:12:57 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
 
>7	+10 Presence, Only If Viewer knows who Ghan is	 
 
Isn't this a classic example of Reputation? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:06:21 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
 
At 01:17 PM 2/8/99 +0000, qts wrote: 
>On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:12:57 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
> 
>>7     +10 Presence, Only If Viewer knows who Ghan is   
> 
>Isn't this a classic example of Reputation? 
 
Yes, it is.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
(What like a bullet can undeceive!) 
But now they lie low, 
While over them the swallows skim, 
And all is hushed at Shiloh. 
        Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862) 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:05:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, qts wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:12:57 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>  
> >7	+10 Presence, Only If Viewer knows who Ghan is	 
>  
> Isn't this a classic example of Reputation? 
 
In a way.  This is an example of Reputation working as an advantage as 
opposed to a disadvantage.  Now, one could assign an Activation Roll to 
this xtra PRE with the roll being equal to the character's Reputation. 
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
      "I registered my copy of the Bible.  I'm hoping to get an upgrade 
                               in the mail." 
                               Darren Hansen 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:20:46 -0500  
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
ATTN: Mr. Rat 
 
<snip> 
] BW> I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says  
] you may have a 
] BW> problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the 
] BW> interest of realism. 
]  
] In the kind of Universe in which Galactus exists, you ask for realism. 
] There is something very wrong about that, I think. 
 
Well, I see gaming like this. I [the GM] lay out rules for how reality 
operates. I state where reality in my game differs from RL reality and 
assume everything else is about the same. I don't care if your uncle's been 
brought back from the dead again, steel is still steel and flesh is still 
flesh. 
 
So, there is nothing wrong with me looking for some gritty realism in my 
fight mechanics. Even if you're fighting zombies. This is my opinion. I do 
not claim it to be humble. 
 
'nuff said. 
BRI 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:20:12 -0500 
From: David_A._Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us (David A. Fair) 
Subject: Re: Dark Champions 
 
DBStallard@compuserve.com writes: 
>Also, 
>would it be worthwhile to track down a copy of that Hudson City software 
>from years ago?  I believe it's a 16-bit program (either DOS or Windows 
>3.x), so that sorta makes me less interested in it, but it seemed like a 
>neat concept. 
 
Dear, Sweet, God, NO! That thing was awful. Good concept, Really poor 
execution, especially by today's standards, but even by standards back 
then. 
 
Thanks, 
Dave 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 
David A. Fair 
Montgomery County Public Schools 
Office of Global Access Technology 
Elementary User Support Specialist 
David_Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 08 Feb 1999 10:22:20 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
 
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"LH" == Lisa Hartjes <beren@unforgettable.com> writes: 
 
LH> Given that the BBB says that desolid characters are immune to NND's, 
LH> but still need to be able to breathe, would the above attack affect the 
LH> desolid character? 
 
Strictly by the book, ignoring special effects of the relevant NND and 
Desolidificataion, no. 
 
I personally think that the SFX of both need to be taken into account. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:20:56 -0800 
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
 
>In the BBB, it says that a desolid character is immune to NND's.  It  
>also says that they can walk through solid objects, but if they don't 
have  
>LS: Doesn't (or self-contained) breathe, they will take damage. 
> 
>One of my NPC's has an NND, a grenade with the sfx that it creates a  
>vacuum and sucks away all the air in a 1-hex area, so anyone in that hex 
 
>can't breathe. 
> 
>Given that the BBB says that desolid characters are immune to NND's,  
>but still need to be able to breathe, would the above attack affect the  
>desolid character? 
> 
>Lisa Hartjes 
>Lead Developer, The Crimson Covenant 
 
Now, I have to ask, how many seconds does the grenade operate?  I can't 
imagine that a one second change in the air pressure would change my 
breathing lots and lots.  The SFX doesn't sound really well thought out. 
 
Now if you took a normal character and a Desol character and locked 'em 
in a sealed room and took the air out, then they would both tend to 
suffocate IMHO. 
 
If a desolid is breathing, are they breathing desolid air? Is a certain 
amount of the air around us "desolid ions" or something? If a certain 
amount of the air is desolid in nature, to allow desol's to breathe, then 
might it be reasonable to assume that desolid air doesn't react to 
physical forces the same way as normal air? 
 
OTOH, you can say "t'heck with it!" and let the NND air grenade act 
normally. 
 
 
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> 
 
The Thought Police just gave me a ticket for loitering! 
 
___________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:44:06 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
hunsaker writes: 
> Why not just use the KE=mgh rule, as the KE(kinetic energy) is what 
> determines damage.  Thus, falling damage is linear with height fallen(not 
counting wind resistance).  You can determine what "terminal velocity" you will 
use, but use this formula.  Thus, if you set a standard value, you can work 
with this.  Say m(mass) is set as 100 kg, and g is already set, and with this 
mass, a body takes , say, 1 DC per meter fallen.  Thus, falling one "inch" or 5 
meters causes 5 DC, or 5d6(normal damage, not killing).        Then, you can 
factor in the mass of the person, just divide his mass by 100 kg, and use it as 
a multiple to the DC.  Thus, a 200 kg character takes 10d6 per 5 meters(normal 
damage).  Of course, such heavier characters are usually tougher, so they can 
take more of a hit, but this system is just the mathematical formula for 
falling in a constant gravitational field.   
 
Mainly because Hero is, in general, a _logarithmic_ system.  If we assume a 
'normal size' (50-100 kilogram) man falling for one second (10 m/s) takes 5d6, 
there should be an additional +2 DC per doubling of velocity (x2 velocity is x4 
KE).  As terminal velocity in air is about 60 m/s (2.5 doublings) a terminal 
velocity fall would thus do 10d6; each level of DI or growth would add 1d6 to 
falling damage, each level of shrinking would subtract 3d6. 
 
Now, this is actually a pretty decent system, mechanically speaking...but it's 
probably a bit low lethality for people who think falling isn't dangerous 
enough.  If I were inclined to bother I'd say around 4d6 for 1 hex/segment of 
velocity, +2dc per doubling, which makes terminal velocity around 14d6 (to be 
honest, a terminal velocity fall probably _isn't_ more dangerous than being 
swatted by someone who can lift 400 tons, or standing next to ten kilos of high 
explosive when it detonates). 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 13:29:47  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Character: Gollum 
 
On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:21:01 EST, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
 
>In a message dated 99-02-06 15:11:18 EST, nolan@erols.com writes: 
> 
>> GOLLUM, FORMER RING-BEARER 
>>   
>>  14	STR	4 
> 
>I haven't been paying as much attention as I'd like to to your Middle Earth 
>posts, but this one just jumped out and bit me. 14 STR for Gollum??  
 
<snip> 
 
>I'd give the average Hobbit STR 4-5, Frodo STR 5 (instead of the STR 10 you 
>gave him) and Bilbo STR 5 in his prime and STR 3 at the time of the War. I'd 
>give Gollum STR 8 or STR 10 at most.  
 
Was Gollum that strong? I'm not so sure - when he made his grab for the 
Ring he was probably Pushing his STR. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:54:24 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"WET" == Warren E Taylor <wtaylor@mindspring.com> writes: 
> 
>WET> If a 4-year-old gets a 25% chance, a prepared grown man should _never_ 
>WET> fail, much less a world-class weightlifter. The bell curve is nice, 
>WET> but it just doesn't do the job. 
> 
>You forgot something: a properly prepared weightlifter would get upwards of 
>a +5 bonus to his Strength roll for his preparation.  His 14- roll becomes 
>a 19- roll, which is impossible to fail on a 3d6 roll. 
 
 
Actually, _I_ said that. 
 
However, you misunderstood. By "prepared", I meant that he knew the door 
would be hard to open, so he used his STR on it, not his Casual STR. That's 
all. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:03:46 EST 
From: CptPatriot@aol.com 
Subject: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
 
A friend of mine asked a question regarding the following: 
 
What if a character with a mimic pool, tried to mimic a character with a 
cosmic power pool? 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 14:05:34  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification 
 
On Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:35:21 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin 
wrote: 
 
>At 11:39 AM 2/6/1999 -0800, Jay P Hailey wrote: 
>>[Desol Mentalists must buy Affects Real World 
>> 
>>>This almost seems unfair, though, unless the character has spent the  
>>>extra 20 points to be unaffected by mental powers. 
>>> 
>>>The point of the +2 Advantage for attacks is  "Ha! I can touch you,  
>>>but you can't touch me!"  That's not the case for mental powers, at 
>>least not  
>>>where the base level of Desolid is being used. 
>>> 
>>>Desolid characters, by default, are themselves affected by mental  
>>>powers. In effect, they aren't Desolid with regard to that class of 
>>power.   
>>>Why should he have to pay triple the cost to target someone in the  
>>>material world -- with a power that *anyone* in the material world can 
>>use on  
>>>him? 
>>> 
>>>Damon 
>> 
>>Compare a mentalist trying to use his on the Harbinger of Justice and a 
>>Desolid Mentalist trying to use his mental Powers on the Harbinger of 
>>Justice.  One winds up riddled with bullets one winds up untouched. 
>>(Until the Harbinger can get his special "Affects Desolid" bullets...) 
>> 
>>The fact of the matter is that a normal mentalist is not immune to 
>>counter attacks by other types of characters (Blaster, bricks or 
>>gun-toting lunatics), while your desolid mentalist is to all but other 
>>mentlists. 
>> 
>>So he pays more point for the priveldge.  Q.E.D. 
>> 
>>see? 
> 
>Apparently *you* didn't see.  My fault for not explaining in a clear manner.  
> 
>First, let me stress that I began my original comment by saying "this 
>*almost* seems unfair".  I wasn't suggesting any part of the system was 
>broken or in need of revision, just making an observation.  I'm afraid I 
>don't see your point about the Desolid character being subject to other 
>attacks forms.  How is that relevant to the fairness, or lack thereof, of 
>making Desolid characters pay for an Advantage that is not required of 
>solid characters in *exactly* the same circumstances?  Why should the use 
>of mental powers be a one-way thing? 
> 
>Suppose the Harbinger of Justice wants to be able to shoot Desolid 
>characters.  He must buy an attack with the Affects Desolid Advantage in 
>order to do so.  It is only right and proper that a Desolid character who 
>wants to shoot the Harbinger (or indeed affect him with any physical or 
>energy-based attack) must buy an attack with the Affects Physical World in 
>order to do so.  I have no qualms about that. 
> 
>However, suppose Mind Slayer wants to attack a Desolid character.  She has 
>an EC of Mental Powers which give her a variety of attack and defense 
>possibilities.  She can attack the Desolid character with impunity, without 
>any need for an Affects Desolid Advantage on any of her powers *because 
>Desolid characters are affected by Mental Powers by default*. 
> 
>So my only question was, it is entirely fair to make the Desolid mentalist 
>pay triple the cost for his mental powers in order to affect the physical 
>world *with those powers* when the reverse isn't true? 
> 
>The mentalist should absolutely pay for the advantage to affect the 
>material world, for any power which would require that a solid character 
>buy the Affects Desolid Advantage in order to affect the immaterial world; 
>mental powers do not carry that requirement for solid characters, so I'm 
>not sure its fair to require it of Desolid characters. 
> 
>That last paragraph was poorly worded, but I think you can get the sense of 
>it. 
 
I would suggest that the character would be required to have his 
Desolid with the Desolid to MA advantage (+20), and attacks with the 
ARW (+2) Advantage. Otherwise this is an exceptionally lethal combo. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:24:48 -0800 
From: "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net> 
Subject: RE: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
 
> Some people may not take to it because they don't like the typing 
> (though with voice recognition, that's not necessarily an  
> indefinite limit) 
 
Voice/video is becoming more viable as well... 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:05:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 CptPatriot@aol.com wrote: 
 
> A friend of mine asked a question regarding the following: 
>  
> What if a character with a mimic pool, tried to mimic a character with a 
> cosmic power pool? 
 
I'd say that the Mimic Pool can only copy the current powers that are 
active in the Cosmic Power Pool.  
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
    "We're not against ideas.  We're just against people spreading them." 
                         General Augusto Pinochet 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:08:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Subject: Re: Character: Gollum 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, qts wrote: 
> On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:21:01 EST, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> >I'd give the average Hobbit STR 4-5, Frodo STR 5 (instead of the STR 10 you 
> >gave him) and Bilbo STR 5 in his prime and STR 3 at the time of the War. I'd 
> >give Gollum STR 8 or STR 10 at most.  
>  
> Was Gollum that strong? I'm not so sure - when he made his grab for the 
> Ring he was probably Pushing his STR. 
 
Well, recall that he /was/ strong enough to strangle goblins. (Sure, he 
preferred to kill the small ones, but I got the impression that was mostly 
out of cowardice.) Presumably if he only had a 5 STR or so the orcs would 
be able to just peel him from off of their necks and stomp him into 
Gollum paste. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:17:20 -0500  
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com> 
Subject: Sanity in the HERO system 
 
A friend of mine is running a Horror HERO type campaign, and had noticed that there are no rules for sanity or sanity losses, like Call of Cthulhu has.  
 
He had come up with an idea of something like this: 
 
SAN (Sanity) = EGO + NIT/2 + PRE/2 
Average person would have a SAN of 20. Anyone with 20's in everything would have a SAN of 40. I have no idea how he would handle SAN losses for various horrifying events, and recovery of SAN. 
 
Does anyone out there have any ideas? Has anyone developed a sanity system for HERO? 
 
 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
Adam Johnson 
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (RAT) 
ajohnson@clariion.com 
 
	Life's a long song... but the tune ends too soon for us all 
Jethro Tull, "Life's a Long Song," Living in the Past 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:56:21 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification 
 
From: Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
 
 
<snip> 
 
> 
>So my only question was, it is entirely fair to make the Desolid mentalist 
>pay triple the cost for his mental powers in order to affect the physical 
>world *with those powers* when the reverse isn't true? 
 
 
Its because the two situations are not truly mirror images of each other. It 
isn't a matter of "Does it seem reasonable that it only works one way"; its 
a matter of "Is it balanced if it _doesn't_ go only one way." 
 
If characters with Desolid who were vulnerable to mental powers could use 
them without the requisite Advantage, you end up with this situation: 
 
The character can attack mentalists. Mentalists can attack the character. 
The character can attack non-mentalists. Non-mentalists cannot attack the 
character. 
 
This gives the character an unbalanced edge vs others, without paying for 
it. 
 
OTOH, if you wanted to declare that, because of their unusual ability to 
affect the minds of Desolid characters, mentalists and only mentalists 
_could_ be affected by the mental powers of Desolid characters ( a sort of 
"I can reach your mind, you can reach mine"), then go for it. It seems to 
balance just fine. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:43:22 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
> 
>If what I am repeating accurately models the effects presented in each new 
>example, then what I am repeating should at least be considered to have 
>some merit. 
 
 
I agree that your idea has merit. I simply disagree that it accurately 
models the situation. 
 
Over and over again, in the comic books and other genre's, we see heroes 
barely avoid attacks (and other sources of damage) that, guaged by the 
destruction caused (or by comparison to the real world, such as with a 
collapsing building), would have killed them had the attack connected. Every 
so often in such situations, the hero gets hit with the attack (or other 
damaging situation), but with a glancing blow, happen to land on something 
soft, gets buried under rubble but not the really heavy stuff, etc. They 
take damage, even hospitalizing damage, but they live. 
 
In order for your assessment (that these heroes are always being hit with 
pulled-punches or casual STR) to be true, I must assume that heroes who are 
attacked but missed are attacked with full-power attacks (to explain the 
damage), while heroes who are attacked and hit are hit with pulled punches. 
While this can be arranged in a comic book, and I could fudge the die rolls 
in HERO ("Oh, he just fired his mega-cannon at half power, to save energy." 
"But his last shot went clear through the vault!" "Well, he was using full 
power then."), I find that sort of tampering to be unacceptable. 
 
Which leaves me with only two choices that I can see. One is that 
_everything_ that could kill the hero that the hero can't simply avoid 
(there are bound to be things; he is a hero, and thus lives a dangerous 
life) just happens to be whimply enough to not kill him (pulled punches), or 
just never happens at an inconvenient time (the low-DEF character is in the 
area of effect, so the murderous berserk brick decideds that, even though he 
is trying to kill them all, he won't throw the semi until he moves). The 
other is that I accept that "soft" heroes are simply not viable in the long 
run in Champions. Which has been, up until now, my experience, and the 
experience of the GMs I have played with. 
 
>What I am refusing is your insistence on rewarding low but otherwise 
>reasonable DEF characters with defenses that their concepts neither deserve 
>nor require in a properly balanced campaign. 
 
 
The _genre_ shows that, if the hero is hit with a potentially fatal attack, 
it will somehow fail to kill him. Your only solution to this so far is to 
claim that having such an attack directed at the hero is somehow non-genre. 
That has not been my experience, and _every_ example you have given has only 
claimed that the hero doesn't get smashed; none of them have shown that the 
hero doesn't get into potentially deadly situations. They do all the time. 
 
Hero enters collapsing building. Hero has building collapsed on top of him. 
Hero gets hit by brick whose last attack, aimed at same hero, did enough 
damage to clearly squash hero like bug. Hero gets clipped by EB from villain 
who not only can clearly kill him with the EB, but is specifically trying to 
do so at the moment, as demonstrated by storyline and by the damage that the 
barely connecting EB did to the wall behind the hero. 
 
In a dice controlled environment, eventually a potentially deadly situation 
_will_ kill. I prefer to create a mechanic to explain the "doesn't quite get 
killed" situation, rather than fudge the situation or the die rolls, 
especially to match a "genre convention" that directly contradicts my 
experience with the genre. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:58:38 -0500 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
 
At 02:17 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Johnson, Adam wrote: 
> 
>A friend of mine is running a Horror HERO type campaign, and had noticed 
that there are no rules for sanity or sanity losses, like Call of Cthulhu 
has.  
> 
 
I strongly suggest you try to track down Horror Hero, which did a nice job 
of dealing with sanity as well as general fright in an extension of the 
rules for Presence Attacks.  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 08 Feb 1999 15:10:07 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
 
"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes: 
 
>> What if a character with a mimic pool, tried to mimic a character with a 
>> cosmic power pool? 
 
MS> I'd say that the Mimic Pool can only copy the current powers that are 
MS> active in the Cosmic Power Pool.  
 
Seconded. 
 
- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:04:12 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
 
At 02:17 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Johnson, Adam wrote: 
> 
>A friend of mine is running a Horror HERO type campaign, and had noticed that 
there are no rules for sanity or sanity losses, like Call of Cthulhu has.  
> 
>He had come up with an idea of something like this: 
> 
>SAN (Sanity) = EGO + NIT/2 + PRE/2 
>Average person would have a SAN of 20. Anyone with 20's in everything would 
have a SAN of 40. I have no idea how he would handle SAN losses for various 
horrifying events, and recovery of SAN. 
> 
>Does anyone out there have any ideas? Has anyone developed a sanity system 
for 
HERO? 
 
 
I'd just use EGO as is.  If you really want ot have a separate score,  
I'd suggest something more like SAN (Sanity) = (EGOx2 + INT + PRE),  
giving you an average around 40.  This allows you more latitude when  
bleeding off Sanity, which should happen a lot in a Cthulhu- type 
game.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
(What like a bullet can undeceive!) 
But now they lie low, 
While over them the swallows skim, 
And all is hushed at Shiloh. 
        Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862) 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:44:21 GMT 
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow) 
Subject: Re: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:24:48 -0800, "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net> 
sent these symbols into the net: 
 
>> Some people may not take to it because they don't like the typing 
>> (though with voice recognition, that's not necessarily an  
>> indefinite limit) 
> 
>Voice/video is becoming more viable as well... 
   Personally I'd be happy with some interface that was easier to use than 
a keyboard, I happen to be a rather poor typist. Unfortunately voice 
doesn't work either, as I tend to start coughing within minutes after 
starting a conversation. Last of all, I'd just as soon present something 
different from the face and form I was born with. 
********************************************************************** 
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.* 
*       Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter.             * 
********************************************************************** 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:07:50 -0600 
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
Apples and oranges are getting compared perhaps 
 
A Blocking Parry is different than a Diverting Parry 
 
Diverting Parries require far less energy to be absorbed 
by what you are diverting with (and the more skilled the 
implementation the less it is) and can make an opening 
for you to attack against the person you are parrying. It 
is directed versus a specific attack (and is more vulnerable 
to a feint) 
 
A blocking parry can be very nearly a passive defense and 
takes less timing and energy to get it into place and it can 
more easily apply versus multiple attacks to the same region. 
 
No they arent really that discrete but it might be a useful way of emulating it 
 
happyelf wrote: 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 2:07 PM 
> Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> >Hash: SHA1 
> > 
> >"N" == Nuncheon  <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
> > 
> >N> Er...but I think the point would be that if Person B wasn't as strong as 
> >N> they were, that the block would have worked.  Also, there's no mechanism 
> >N> in HERO for making Blocks more difficult based on the strength of the 
> >N> attacker. 
> > 
> >Ask any student of Aikido, he'll tell you that the strength of an attacker 
> >is largely irrelevant to neutralizing his attack.  Making Blocks more 
> >difficult based on the strength of the attacker is just plain wrong. 
> > 
> 
> not so. it amkes a nice line, but if you're stong enough youn can break 
> out of things. also, we're talking class 100 strength here! 
> they're punching so hard the pavement is shattering beneath their feet. . 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:44:45 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
 
>A friend of mine asked a question regarding the following: 
> 
>What if a character with a mimic pool, tried to mimic a character with a 
>cosmic power pool? 
 
Technically, you can't put a framework in a framework, so I'd probably just 
have him mimic the current or last powers that had been pulled out of the pool. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 08 Feb 1999 15:16:47 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filksinger@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Actually, _I_ said that. 
 
Apologies.  Chalk it up to someone's MUA not denoting citations at all. 
 
F> However, you misunderstood. By "prepared", I meant that he knew the door 
F> would be hard to open, so he used his STR on it, not his Casual STR. 
F> That's all. 
 
Well, if he knows that opening the door will be difficult, he will also 
position himself in an attempt to maximize the effect of his STR.  The two 
are complimentary: he gets his full STR for the roll, and he gets a 
conditional bonus for the roll.  With both he should have no problem 
opening the door. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:43:09 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: RE: [Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ]] 
 
>> Some people may not take to it because they don't like the typing 
>> (though with voice recognition, that's not necessarily an  
>> indefinite limit) 
> 
>Voice/video is becoming more viable as well... 
 
Well, I have to suspect we're gonna run into some bandwidth problems if that 
becomes to common, though. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:35:10 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Desolidification:  Another Question 
 
>In the BBB, it says that a desolid character is immune to NND's.  It also 
>says that they can walk through solid objects, but if they don't have LS: 
>Doesn't (or self-contained) breathe, they will take damage. 
> 
>One of my NPC's has an NND, a grenade with the sfx that it creates a vacuum 
>and sucks away all the air in a 1-hex area, so anyone in that hex can't 
>breathe. 
> 
>Given that the BBB says that desolid characters are immune to NND's, but 
>still need to be able to breathe, would the above attack affect the desolid 
>character? 
 
Probably not, though you're starting to run into one of the tricky, 
'privledged frame of reference' problems with Desolid. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:33:53 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
<snip> 
>Well, if he knows that opening the door will be difficult, he will also 
>position himself in an attempt to maximize the effect of his STR.  The two 
>are complimentary: he gets his full STR for the roll, and he gets a 
>conditional bonus for the roll.  With both he should have no problem 
>opening the door. 
 
 
Problem still exists. If both the weight lifter and the small child prepare, 
they still have the same separation on the probability chart. If the weight 
lifter _needed_ the +5, because the door was at a STR -5 to open, then the 
body builder and the child still have the same relative chances of success 
as with the original situation. It still remains that, if the child could 
succeed, there should be virtually no chance that the weight lifter could 
fail, but both possibilities exist. No matter how prepared, nevertheless, if 
everything else is otherwise equal, the child's STR roll still compares too 
favorably to the weight lifters. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 21:54:57  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Mimic & Cosmic Pools 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:03:46 EST, CptPatriot@aol.com wrote: 
 
>A friend of mine asked a question regarding the following: 
> 
>What if a character with a mimic pool, tried to mimic a character with a 
>cosmic power pool? 
 
The GM gets a headache? :} 
 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:49:14 -0500  
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
Subject: RE: Sanity in the HERO system 
 
Mind Control is very handy for altering a player's behavior in subtle ways. 
Typically, you see people using Mind Control for Jedi Mind Tricks and Kill 
Your Buddy effects. It's pretty straight forward to dump specific emotional 
problems onto your PC's with MC. 
 
The MC doesn't even need to be all that powerful if it fits the setting. If 
a PC is confronted with something horrible, it's generally not that tough to 
convince them to freak out. Likewise, if you use the plot and NPC's to plant 
the seeds of paranoia, a little MC can nudge someone just far enough to 
start showing some really antisocial behavior, resulting in friction with 
other PC's, reinforcing the paranoia, etc. 
 
This can work either on short term bursts of terror or long term phobias or 
subliminal triggers. Assuming the PC doesn't have a psych lim that goes 
directly against the thrust of the MC, you can usually convince them with a 
moderate level of control. Given the penalty to break out of MC based on how 
much the MC roll exceeded the required roll, you can adjust the length of 
the effect fairly easily. Obviously, characters with high EGO's don't go 
quite so nuts for quite so long. 
 
I see where you're going with the extra figured sanity stat but I don't 
think it's necessary. I think in CoC, you're sane until you're crazy, right? 
Basically a continuum from 'just fine' to 'eating your own fingers'. In 
Champs, I think you've just got a lot more flexibility to impose certain 
kinds of insanity. Delusions, paranoia, berserks and so on. 
 
Also, I don't think INT or PRE has that much to do with sanity. There's 
quite a few intelligent psychopaths with good people skills. 
 
BRI 
 
 
] At 02:17 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Johnson, Adam wrote: 
] > 
] >A friend of mine is running a Horror HERO type campaign, and  
] had noticed 
] that there are no rules for sanity or sanity losses, like  
] Call of Cthulhu 
] has.  
] > 
]  
] I strongly suggest you try to track down Horror Hero, which  
] did a nice job 
] of dealing with sanity as well as general fright in an  
] extension of the 
] rules for Presence Attacks.  
]  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 08 Feb 1999 16:12:35 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
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"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> The _genre_ shows that, if the hero is hit with a potentially fatal 
F> attack, it will somehow fail to kill him. 
 
Then by convention of genre, such an attack is not lethal.  I choose to 
dispense with the idea of a non-lethal attack being lethal as the oxymoron 
it is. 
 
At this point it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to model this 
phenomenon as simply and as fairly as possible.  Your method gives low DEF 
characters defenses that are inappropriate for their concepts.  Either you 
give it to them for free, or you force them to spend points they should 
not.  Either way, I think that is unfair. 
 
Likewise, it is unfair in its implementation: by your method and mechanics, 
a character with 10 Body gets more out of your construct than an otherwise 
identical character with 15 Body for the exact same point expenditure. 
 
[...] 
 
F> In a dice controlled environment, eventually a potentially deadly 
F> situation _will_ kill. 
 
Ah, this is the root of our disagreement, I think.  My take is that dice 
control nothing.  They are a tool, a guideline, a crutch if you would.  My 
methods reflect that.  I control the dice, they do not control me. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 18:40:00  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Character: Ghan-Buri-Ghan 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:05:39 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, qts wrote: 
> 
>> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:12:57 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>>  
>> >7	+10 Presence, Only If Viewer knows who Ghan is	 
>>  
>> Isn't this a classic example of Reputation? 
> 
>In a way.  This is an example of Reputation working as an advantage as 
>opposed to a disadvantage.  Now, one could assign an Activation Roll to 
>this xtra PRE with the roll being equal to the character's Reputation. 
 
Good idea! 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:22:26 +0100 
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it> 
Subject: Campaign Ideas ? 
 
Hi folks it's me again !!!! 
I am preparing finally (thanking you all for all the help you gave me!!!!) 
the campaign in a 2047 A.D. similar to the Age of Apocalypse (you rememeber 
the Marvel one ?)based on the survival but not only of course. 
My group is composed by 225 power points character, basically mutants 
 
  
I was just wondering if you have some original idea for adventures (yeah I 
have a lot of mine but I am just curious and I think more people could do 
more original adventures) 
 
Thank ya a lot 
 
B-Bishop 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 21:56:32  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Sanity in the HERO system 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:17:20 -0500, Johnson, Adam wrote: 
 
> 
>A friend of mine is running a Horror HERO type campaign, and had noticed that there are no rules for sanity or sanity losses, like Call of Cthulhu has.  
> 
>He had come up with an idea of something like this: 
> 
>SAN (Sanity) = EGO + NIT/2 + PRE/2 
>Average person would have a SAN of 20. Anyone with 20's in everything would have a SAN of 40. I have no idea how he would handle SAN losses for various horrifying events, and recovery of SAN. 
> 
>Does anyone out there have any ideas? Has anyone developed a sanity system for HERO? 
 
How about a Cumulative Transform: Sane person to Insane Person BOECV? 
Possibly with an EGO Drain as well 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 21:54:14  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Character: Gollum 
 
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:08:03 -0600 (CST), Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
 
>On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, qts wrote: 
>> On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:21:01 EST, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
>>  
>> >I'd give the average Hobbit STR 4-5, Frodo STR 5 (instead of the STR 10 you 
>> >gave him) and Bilbo STR 5 in his prime and STR 3 at the time of the War. I'd 
>> >give Gollum STR 8 or STR 10 at most.  
>>  
>> Was Gollum that strong? I'm not so sure - when he made his grab for the 
>> Ring he was probably Pushing his STR. 
> 
>Well, recall that he /was/ strong enough to strangle goblins. (Sure, he 
>preferred to kill the small ones, but I got the impression that was mostly 
>out of cowardice.) Presumably if he only had a 5 STR or so the orcs would 
>be able to just peel him from off of their necks and stomp him into 
>Gollum paste. 
 
I think I can go along with that. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #195 
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