Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 201

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 10:43 AM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #201 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Friday, February 12 1999        Volume 01 : Number 201 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Multipower Questions 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Fw: Re: Rules books online 
    Re: Damage Shield question (& answer) 
    Re: Damage Shield question 
    Re: Damage Shield question (& answer) 
    Re: Fw: Re: Rules books online 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
    Stats and Strength Tables 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Re: Paying END sporadically 
    Character: Lord of the Nazgul, Second Draft 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:24:49 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
> Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
> does its damage?   
>  
> e.g. a character with an electricity Damage Shield.  Does 
> he constantly have an arcing effect around him, or does  
> he just spark when somebody gets close enough? 
 
Hmm.  IIRC, you only pay END for the Damage Shield when it goes off, 
right?  Or am I misremembering?  If I'm not, then I'd say the Damage 
Shield is only visible when it goes off. 
 
In any case, I think the default condition would be that the Damage Shield 
is only visible when you are paying END (or when you would be paying END 
if you didn't have Charges/0 END/whatever on the power) - just like any 
other power in the HERO system.  If you're paying END for it constantly 
(Force Field), its always visible.  If you pay END for it only when it is 
used (Energy Blast) then it's only visible when it's being used. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:31:52 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
 >If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>does its damage?   
 
As far as I know, it's visible all the time. 
 
> 
>e.g. a character with an electricity Damage Shield.  Does 
>he constantly have an arcing effect around him, or does  
>he just spark when somebody gets close enough? 
 
The former.  Though I could certainly see giving a limitation on Invisible 
Power Effects if it only hid the Damage Shield in 'passive' mode. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:38:00 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
At 02:10 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>does its damage?   
> 
 
 
Some good thoughts so far.  I hadn't considered the END  
angle.  Ok ... Let me throw in one more twist.  This  
Damage Shield is bought "Always On" -- therefore it also 
has "0 END, Persistent". 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:43:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
At 02:10 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>does its damage?   
> 
>e.g. a character with an electricity Damage Shield.  Does 
>he constantly have an arcing effect around him, or does  
>he just spark when somebody gets close enough? 
 
   I'd expect that it should be visible at all times.  To make it visible 
only when affecting someone, use Invisible Power Effects with the 
Limitation (on the Advantage only) "Only When Affecting a Target." 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:46:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
At 04:38 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>At 02:10 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>>does its damage?   
>> 
> 
> 
>Some good thoughts so far.  I hadn't considered the END  
>angle.  Ok ... Let me throw in one more twist.  This  
>Damage Shield is bought "Always On" -- therefore it also 
>has "0 END, Persistent". 
 
   A Damage Shield that's Always On is also Always Visible.  :-] 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:51:56 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>  
> At 02:10 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
> >If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a 
> >Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
> >does its damage? 
>  
> Some good thoughts so far.  I hadn't considered the END 
> angle.  Ok ... Let me throw in one more twist.  This 
> Damage Shield is bought "Always On" -- therefore it also 
> has "0 END, Persistent". 
 
Until he buys "invisible power effects", it would still be 
arcing around him. (Electricity right?) Just because 0 End 
is on a power, doesn't mean it becomes invisible. 
 
And just to set some people straight: You pay End to have the 
DS up like a Force field. 
 
 
- -Mark Lemming 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:44:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
At 02:24 PM 2/11/99 -0600, Dr. Nuncheon wrote: 
>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
> 
>> If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>> Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>> does its damage?   
>>  
>> e.g. a character with an electricity Damage Shield.  Does 
>> he constantly have an arcing effect around him, or does  
>> he just spark when somebody gets close enough? 
> 
>Hmm.  IIRC, you only pay END for the Damage Shield when it goes off, 
>right?  Or am I misremembering?  If I'm not, then I'd say the Damage 
>Shield is only visible when it goes off. 
 
   You are misremembering.  The character pays END each Phase that the 
Damage Shield is active (regardless, BTW, of how many targets are affected 
by it). 
 
>In any case, I think the default condition would be that the Damage Shield 
>is only visible when you are paying END (or when you would be paying END 
>if you didn't have Charges/0 END/whatever on the power) - just like any 
>other power in the HERO system.  If you're paying END for it constantly 
>(Force Field), its always visible.  If you pay END for it only when it is 
>used (Energy Blast) then it's only visible when it's being used. 
 
   This much is indeed correct.  :-] 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:52:42 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Paying END sporadically 
 
How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
only costs END when someone touches you, or a Force Wall that stays up for 
days unless beat on it hard enough. 
 
There should be varying levels for the second one, so you can have two 
versions: one for pays END when hit, the other for pays END in proportion to 
damage stopped. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:30:48 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
At 03:52 PM 2/11/99 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>only costs END when someone touches you, or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
> 
>There should be varying levels for the second one, so you can have two 
>versions: one for pays END when hit, the other for pays END in proportion to 
>damage stopped. 
 
I like that question, there seems to be a gap in END cost for something 
like that, I came up with an END to start power only advantage, but this is 
something I have often wanted to do and couldn't figure out the best way to 
model it, any ideas? 
 
Incidentally the END to start power only is +1/4 and makes the initial cost 
of END doubled... and each time the power level is changed (less PD and ED 
in a forcefield, etc) the END cost (x2) is paid, but none otherwise.  Very 
handy for a lot of spell-like effects in Fantasy Hero 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 01:08:08  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:52:42 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>only costs END when someone touches you, 
 
A Damage Shield costs END every phase, whether it goes off or not, 
unless it's bought to 0 END 
 
> or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
 
How about 0 END Persistent, Uncontrolled 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 01:04:35  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:10:52 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>does its damage?   
> 
>e.g. a character with an electricity Damage Shield.  Does 
>he constantly have an arcing effect around him, or does  
>he just spark when somebody gets close enough? 
 
All the time unless he buys IPE. Are you getting mixed up with Delayed 
Effect or Trigger? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 01:05:37  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:38:00 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
>At 02:10 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>>does its damage?   
>> 
> 
> 
>Some good thoughts so far.  I hadn't considered the END  
>angle.  Ok ... Let me throw in one more twist.  This  
>Damage Shield is bought "Always On" -- therefore it also 
>has "0 END, Persistent". 
 
Not relevant IMO. Unless it's been bought with Invisible Power Effects, 
it's visible. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:43:46 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
At 03:52 PM 2/11/1999 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
>you only pay END when it does something? 
 
The full END cost you'd normally pay for a Constant or Persistent Power 
(whichever this is).  If it's up all the time, it's doing something.  A 
Force Field that runs continuously is always there to protect you from 
potential damage, whether or not a blow ever lands.  If you want to pay 
sporadically, perhaps you can buy Danger Sense and Trigger the Power to 
activate when your Danger Sense is tripped. 
 
I'm not sure how efficient that would be in terms of overall character 
cost, but if you're concerned about constantly using END for a Power you 
only benefit from once in a while, and something about your character 
concept means it doesn't make sense to just buy extra END to cover the END 
cost of the shield... 
  
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 11 Feb 1999 20:36:39 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
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Hash: SHA1 
 
"N" == Nuncheon  <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
N> Hmm.  IIRC, you only pay END for the Damage Shield when it goes off, 
N> right?  Or am I misremembering?  If I'm not, then I'd say the Damage 
N> Shield is only visible when it goes off. 
 
Nope.  Damage Shield makes a power Persistent, which means you spend END 
throughout its use. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 11 Feb 1999 20:35:40 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions 
 
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"TG" == Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> writes: 
 
TG> 	There is no other way to interpret this, as advantages are not, 
TG> by the book, bought for an entire multipower. 
 
I cannot see the 'problem'; a -0 Limitation or a +0 Avanteage is 
mathematically equivalent to no modifier whatsoever. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:55:51 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
> N> Hmm.  IIRC, you only pay END for the Damage Shield when it goes off, 
> N> right?  Or am I misremembering?  If I'm not, then I'd say the Damage 
> N> Shield is only visible when it goes off. 
>  
> Nope.  Damage Shield makes a power Persistent, which means you spend END 
> throughout its use. 
 
Actually, it makes a power Constant, not Persistent. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 11 Feb 1999 20:39:00 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
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Hash: SHA1 
 
"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, 
F> but you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage 
F> Shield that only costs END when someone touches you, or a Force Wall 
F> that stays up for days unless beat on it hard enough. 
 
Hero has no method of modeling this.  END is spent when powers are turned 
on and on each phase they are maintained. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \  
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:15:11 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
 
 
>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:52:42 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, 
but 
>>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>>only costs END when someone touches you, 
> 
>A Damage Shield costs END every phase, whether it goes off or not, 
>unless it's bought to 0 END 
 
 
I'm sorry, but how is that relevant? 
 
>> or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
> 
>How about 0 END Persistent, Uncontrolled 
 
 
I must have been unclear. I was asking for suggestions on how to model 
powers that cost END, but only when they do something. For example, a 
character with Damage Shield, who spends no END to maintain the field, but 
spends END to damage things. Or, a Force Wall that stays up without much 
effort, but every time someone hits it, you pay END. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:03:36 -0500 
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Fw: Re: Rules books online 
 
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:02:39 -0600 
>To: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> 
>Subject: Re: Rules books online 
> 
>->I like the PDF's of out of print Marvel Super Heros books. 
>->How did you get permission to post them? (I want to post some out of print 
>->rule books I have, but am afraid of violating copyrights). 
> 
>Actually, I don't have any such permission. I posted these books only 
>because they were out of print and a lot of people still like to play with 
>these rules. I figure that TSR and Marvel both benefit from this system 
>being in the public arena because it sparks interest in their current 
>products. (Thus, I feature links to buy the current system.) 
> 
>Basically, since I'm not making money from the site, I figure I'll just do 
what I >want until someone asks me to do otherwise. 
> 
>My advice would be to give proper credit (keep all the fine print) and go 
>ahead. If someone wants you to stop, then stop. 
> 
>zan 
>============================ 
> 
============================ 
Geoff Heald 
============================ 
And it's a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages. 
Roving bands of well-paid craftsmen fitted two extra beads to abacuses and 
sorted it out. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question (& answer) 
 
At 02:46 PM 2/11/99 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
>>>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
>>>does its damage?   
>>> 
> 
>   A Damage Shield that's Always On is also Always Visible.  :-] 
 
 
This seems to be the consensus.  Looks like I'll have to buy  
IPE with this.  However, here's the effect I want.  It is  
unnoticible (at least to normal sight) until somebody hits  
it -- then there's a huge spark. 
 
Since IPE is generally +1/2, would a +1/4 advantage be appropriate? 
(Invisible except when attacking.) 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 11 Feb 1999 21:58:21 -0500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question 
 
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"AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Actually, it makes a power Constant, not Persistent. 
 
Um... yeah, right, what he said. 
 
Pardon me, I just got back from spending much of the day at an interview 
and I'm still a bit frazzeled. 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:04:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Shield question (& answer) 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
> At 02:46 PM 2/11/99 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >>>If you do not buy "Invisible Power Effects", is a  
> >>>Damage Shield always visible?  Or just when it actually 
> >>>does its damage?   
> >>> 
> > 
> >   A Damage Shield that's Always On is also Always Visible.  :-] 
>  
> This seems to be the consensus.  Looks like I'll have to buy  
> IPE with this.  However, here's the effect I want.  It is  
> unnoticible (at least to normal sight) until somebody hits  
> it -- then there's a huge spark. 
>  
> Since IPE is generally +1/2, would a +1/4 advantage be appropriate? 
> (Invisible except when attacking.) 
 
Hmm...'not when attacking' is probably worth a -1 on the IPE, so yeah, 
doing it as a +1/4 would give similar (although not exactly the same) 
results (but it would be less messy.) 
 
Technically, you ought to give it the full +1/2 and then limit the 
advantage by a -1 - it gives a higher AP and END cost. 
 
That's also how you'd do the '0 END until used' - 0 END (+1/2) with the 
limitation 'not on phases when damage shield is set off'. (probably -1 as  
well) 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:55:02 EST 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Rules books online 
 
In a message dated 2/11/99 6:42:08 PM, gheald@worldnet.att.net writes: 
 
>>Actually, I don't have any such permission. I posted these books only 
>>because they were out of print and a lot of people still like to play 
>with 
>>these rules. I figure that TSR and Marvel both benefit from this system 
>>being in the public arena because it sparks interest in their current 
>>products. (Thus, I feature links to buy the current system.) 
>> 
>>Basically, since I'm not making money from the site, I figure I'll just 
>do 
>what I >want until someone asks me to do otherwise. 
 
Unfortunately, what this person is doing *is* a violation of TSR and Marvel 
copyrights, regardless of whether or not he makes money at it, or whether or 
not the books are still offered for sale. He should remove those books from 
his site. 
 
 Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:27:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
At 03:52 PM 2/11/99 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>only costs END when someone touches you, or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
> 
>There should be varying levels for the second one, so you can have two 
>versions: one for pays END when hit, the other for pays END in proportion to 
>damage stopped. 
 
   Weird concepts here....  :-] 
 
   For paying END only when it does something, I'd just take 0 END with a 
Limitation (again, on the Advantage, not the entire Power) "Not When 
Actually Used."  Thus, a character could have a Force Field or Damage 
Shield up at all times, and only have to pay END when he's actually hit 
with something.  On the other hand, if he's hit multiple times in a single 
Phase, I'd charge END for each attack.  Just offhand I'd make this a -1 
Limitation on the Advantage. 
   As for paying END in proportion to damage actually stopped, again I'd 
start with 0 END and apply a Limitation to the Advantage.  In this case, 
I'd call the Limitation -3/4. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:00:13 -0600 
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> 
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99] ] 
 
Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> >A hobby only lasts as long as it attracts adherents from each new 
> >generation.  Wargaming started with HG Well's 'Little Wars,' it lasted 
> >what, a century?  Quite an illustrius history, with a very noble begining 
> >(The idea of 'Little Wars' was that governments could simulate wars 
> >rather than fighting them).  We killed it.  Bunch of ignorant punk kids 
> >playing a lame 1:1 scale game with no historical merit... 
> > 
> >Now it's our turn. 
> 
> Oh now, Wargaming is still around and doin fine trust me :) 
 
I know some kids who do Warhammer War gaming.. they love the little figurines 
 
> Its just not 
> as popular, but there are newer forms like Chronopia and such appearing as 
> well, hobbys go through various waves and stages, RPGs will do so. 
> Collectible Card Games, as fun as they are, are NOT in the same class, 
> however, they are pretty limited in their charm and variety, 
 
Hmmmm CCGs are more on the order of war games... they do something different. 
 
> and while 
> magic was addictive for a while, poor management of supply, insane, 
> inconsistent and contradictory changes to the rules, and inherant rarity 
> problems basically have cut its throat, MTG is bleeding, and is losing 
> popularity fast. 
 
Im not seeing it... The gaming shops are still selling the mtg stuff like hot 
cakes 
and new players are constantly coming into it... The rules for magic the 
gathering are pretty damn stable but growing (this growth actually helps keep 
the game alive)... compare them to the rules of highlander which morph in 
weird ways. 
 
> RPGs suffered a little bump, but are coming back, 
 
Its way easier to find someone to play magic with... but i really do hope rpgs 
come back ... Im not seeing it.  The Bump you refer to is a severe wound they 
lost tons of players to magic the addiction 
 
> 
> miniature games seem to be having an upsurgance too. 
> 
 
This ive noticed a little, though im not much into them 
 
> 
> CCGs will always be with us, they are lots of fun and easier to play at 
> lunch, requiring no preparation and little creativity to play. 
 
CCGs last as long as they keep on coming with new expansions and new rules... 
when they quit, they are done. 
 
>  But RPGs 
> arent dead nor dying any more than Wargaming is. 
 
RPGs had a lot of life blood drained out of them by ccgs...  fully 
virtual...rpgs could leap frog ccgs... RoleMasters Magestorm is fairly close 
to a digital version of RoleMasters magic system including character design 
and development system. Underlight and other ultima online styled games could 
make for virtual rpging... if that is how people want to use them.  Mushes and 
Muds are just primitives of what im talking about. 
 
Lance 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:30:10 -0600 
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> 
Subject: Stats and Strength Tables 
 
Annecdotal Stats from highschool 
 
I weighed 65 kg 
my military press in highschool... was in the range of 60 kg 
my bench press was 70 kg 
and my leg press was 220 kg (I had a nice standing broad jump) 
 
These lifts were not very spur of the moment, they were simple 
and performed on machines, I was exerting myself fully. 
 
I occasionally startled people by being stronger than they "expected". 
probably because i was seen as a nerd/artist type, they liked to 
forget that i was also a competant "non star" football player. 
 
What Strength was I? 
 
I would argue that a realistic strength system would separate upper and 
lower body ability, that running, jumping and kick damage should be linked 
 
Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> On Feb. 4, Black Bishop wrote: 
> 
> >Hi folks, I am sorry if I didn't write before but study kept me very 
> busy 
> >Well just today I was planning a new campaign for us 
> >It is designed in 2047, with a setting similar to "Age of Apocalypse" 
> (BUT 
> >NOT THE SAME!!!!) 
> >(Just to make you understand) 
> >Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my 
> campaign... 
> >it is TOO powerful !!! 
> >Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I 
> think !!! 
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "lift."  The BBB isn't terribly clear on 
> this.  A few of the folks on this list have come up with their own 
> guidelines for what STR really means.  Here's mine. 
> 
> Now a 10 STR indicates an ability to lift and carry a mass of 100 kg, 
> putting the full STR of his body into the feat, such as carrying a 
> 100-kg man in a fireman's carry.  This "shoulder lift" is what's given 
> in the STR table, and defines his encumbrance maximum.  (I place a 
> severe movement penalty on this fully encumbered state.)  As a method 
> of reference for other types of lift, a character's squat-lift 
> potential is about 2/3 his shoulder lift capability, a dead-lift 
> weight is about 1/2 his shoulder lift, a bench press or clean-and-jerk 
> about 1/3 his shoulder lift, and a snatch-and-jerk or lift with one 
> hand about 1/4 his shoulder lift.  So a 10 STR man can shoulder or 
> carry a maximum of 100 kg without Pushing, squat-lift roughly 70 kg, 
> dead-lift about 50 kg, bench press or clean-and-jerk around 35 kg, and 
> snatch-and-jerk about 25 kg. 
 
> 
 
> 
> A 20 STR man who can who can deadlift 200 kg or bench press 135 kg is 
> hardly superhuman.  This scale places the strongest weight lifters in 
> the 23-25 STR range. 
> 
> >And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift 
> TOO 
> >MUCH!!! 
> >(Hey man... 100 tons are too much!!!) 
> >Could you halp me to find a good idea ? I was thinking about allow 
> lift the 
> >STR^2 in Kilos but it is too weak !!! 
> 
> I've tinkered with the STR/mass/energy scale of Hero at the upper 
> ranges to provide for a more graduated rise in these figures.  From 
> 51-100 STR, lift mass doubles with every +10 STR.  Above 100 STR, lift 
> mass doubles with every +20 STR.  It also implies that for 11-20 DC 
> attacks, every +2 DC means a doubling of gross damage energy, while 21 
> DC attacks and better double their energy with every +4 DC. 
> 
> This method has points for and against it.  It makes the truly 
> superhuman seem much more impressive than the merely heroic.  Those 18 
> BODY normal humans aren't quite so problematic when the BODY of very 
> massive objects is even greater.  High energy attacks like tank guns, 
> when translated into Hero terms, do much more damage--which means 
> rolling a lot more dice, of course--making the world more 
> realistically lethal. 
> 
> On the other hand, the DEF figures of armor and strong materials must 
> be revised upward.  It also means changing the values of the Growth 
> and the Density Increase powers.  And if you think hard about issues 
> of mass and energy, you have to take into account the "transition 
> zones" where the scale changes, adding a further level of complexity. 
> 
> All this scale-changing sacrifices much of the existing simplicity of 
> the game's scale, so it's purely experimental. 
> 
> Len Carpenter 
> redlion@early.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:36:58 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> I must have been unclear. I was asking for suggestions on how to model 
> powers that cost END, but only when they do something. For example, a 
> character with Damage Shield, who spends no END to maintain the field, but 
> spends END to damage things. Or, a Force Wall that stays up without much 
> effort, but every time someone hits it, you pay END. 
>  
> Filksinger 
 
 
	The way that I came up with after a bit of thought is this.  Buy the 
power as 0 end.  This covers your first part.  The second part, costing 
you endurance when something happens, can be modelled as a 
susceptibility.  (Down in front!!!  I know this is a disadvantage.  
Watch and wait.)  Buy it as a 1d6 endurance drain costing 5 points, 
maybe 10 for a "common" effect.  Every time the force wall is clobbered, 
or the damage shield is triggered, or what ever, you suffer a loss of 
2-12 endurance points. 
- --  
Rick Holding 
 
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common... 
   or if you prefer...  You call this logic ? 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 12:04:26  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:15:11 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:52:42 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> 
>>>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, 
>but 
>>>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>>>only costs END when someone touches you, 
>> 
>>A Damage Shield costs END every phase, whether it goes off or not, 
>>unless it's bought to 0 END 
> 
> 
>I'm sorry, but how is that relevant? 
> 
>>> or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>>>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
>> 
>>How about 0 END Persistent, Uncontrolled 
> 
> 
>I must have been unclear. 
 
Clearly :} 
 
> I was asking for suggestions on how to model 
>powers that cost END, but only when they do something. For example, a 
>character with Damage Shield, who spends no END to maintain the field, but 
>spends END to damage things. 
 
How about Partially Limiting the 0 END Advantage? 
 
> Or, a Force Wall that stays up without much 
>effort, but every time someone hits it, you pay END. 
 
Can you elaborate on this? What is the SFX? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 12:04:26  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:15:11 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:52:42 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> 
>>>How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, 
>but 
>>>you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>>>only costs END when someone touches you, 
>> 
>>A Damage Shield costs END every phase, whether it goes off or not, 
>>unless it's bought to 0 END 
> 
> 
>I'm sorry, but how is that relevant? 
> 
>>> or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>>>days unless beat on it hard enough. 
>> 
>>How about 0 END Persistent, Uncontrolled 
> 
> 
>I must have been unclear. 
 
Clearly :} 
 
> I was asking for suggestions on how to model 
>powers that cost END, but only when they do something. For example, a 
>character with Damage Shield, who spends no END to maintain the field, but 
>spends END to damage things. 
 
How about Partially Limiting the 0 END Advantage? 
 
> Or, a Force Wall that stays up without much 
>effort, but every time someone hits it, you pay END. 
 
Can you elaborate on this? What is the SFX? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:57:05 EST 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically 
 
In a message dated 99-02-11 19:13:24 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes: 
 
> How much do you think it should cost for a Power that is up constantly, but 
>  you only pay END when it does something? For example, a Damage Shield that 
>  only costs END when someone touches you, or a Force Wall that stays up for 
>  days unless beat on it hard enough. 
 
I'd buy it as a Limited Advantage, as described on BBB p 101. Buy the Power, 
buy the Reduced END Advantage: 0 END, and then buy a Limited Power Limitation 
on the 0 END Advantage. For the Damage Shield, it might be 6d6 EB, Damage 
Shield (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Not When Damage Shield Does Damage (-1/2, only 
applies to the 0 END Advantage). This would be 60 active points and 55 real 
pts.  
 
>   
>  There should be varying levels for the second one, so you can have two 
>  versions: one for pays END when hit, the other for pays END in proportion 
to 
>  damage stopped. 
 
This is a bit trickier; one would have to get creative about defining the 
Limitation. The first version would be "Not When Hit" (-1/2) applied to the 0 
END, the second might be "Not To The Def Needed To Stop An Attack" (-1/2) 
applied to the 0 END. 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:41:37 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Character: Lord of the Nazgul, Second Draft 
 
THE LORD OF THE NAZGUL, SECOND DRAFT 
 
18      DEX     24 
18      INT     8 
25      EGO     30 
35      PRE     25 
5       SPD     22 
Characteristics Cost: 109 
 
10      Astral Vision    
15      Normal Vision    
15      Normal Hearing   
10      Tracking Scent   
14      Sense Magic, Discriminatory, +2 PER      
                 
5       Images, Only to Create shadowy self-image, 
        Actions limited by Image, No Range, Always On, 
        0 END Persistent 
                 
67      25 STR Telekinesis, fine manipulation, No Range, 
        Only as if a body, Affects Real World, 0 END 
                 
79      9D6 Mind Control, telepathic contact, 0 END 
                 
22      "Aura of Fear", 4" Change Environment, 0 END 
                 
119     Variable Power Pool (65-point pool), 
        restricted type of powers, can change powers as 0 phase, 
        no skill roll required, Extra Time (1 Turn), Gestures, Incantation, 
        Affects Real World       
                 
7       16- Contact: Sauron      
6       15- Contact: Other Nazgul        
                 
40      5 Levels, all combat     
6       WF, Lances, Whip, Common Melee, Common Missile   
                 
3       Bureaucratics 16-        
3       Deduction 13-    
5       High Society 17-         
11      Interrogation 20-        
9       Navigation 14-   
3       Oratory 16-      
9       Riding 16-       
3       Shadowing 11-    
11      Tactics 17-      
3       Tracking 13-     
1       TF, Flying Beasts        
                 
3       Linguist         
1       Lang: Adunaic, native, literacy  
5       Lang: Black Speech, imitate dialects, literacy   
3       Lang: Westron, fluent w/accent, literacy         
3       Lang: Haradrim,fluent w/accent,literacy  
1       Lang: Quenya, literacy   
                 
3       Scholar  
6       KS: Will of Sauron 17- 
6       KS: Sorcery 17- 
2       KS: History of Middle-Earth 13-  
3       KS: Peoples of Middle-Earth 14-  
                 
3       Traveler         
8       AK: Angmar 19- 
5       AK: Mordor 16-   
4       AK: Eriador 15-  
4       AK: Rhovanion 15- 
3       AK: Gondor 14- 
2       AK: Numenor 13- 
                 
41      Package,"The Black Breath", Area Effect, radius  
(29)    2D6 Drain v. Body,,fade rate: per week, 
 
        Gradual (every 6 hours), 4 Charges, Continuous, Uncontrolled 
(12)    1D6 Drain v. Constitution, fade rate: per week, 
        Gradual (every 6 hours),        Linked, 4 Charges,Continuous, 
        Uncontrolled 
                 
10      Package, "Ring of Power", OIF    
(2)     Mind Link,w/Sauron, Only to Summon Nazgul        
(8)     60/6 End Reserve for VPP         
                 
22      Package,"Morgul Knife", OAF 
(15)    1D6+1 Killing Attack  HTH,+1 Increased Stun Mult 
(7)     1/2D6 major Transform to servant wight, Knife Must Do Body       
        Damage, Gradual (every six hours), Continuous, Uncontrolled, 
        0 END Persistent 
                 
22      Package, "The Mace Morangurth", OAF, STR Min 13 
(16)    2 1/2D6 Killing Attack  HTH 
(6)     3 Levels,related group   
 
Powers Cost: 636 
Total Cost: 745 
 
Base Points: 75 
20      Distinctive Features, "Ringwraith", concealable, extreme 
13      Watched, "Sauron", more powerful, noncombat influence, 
        harsh, appear 11- 
5       Watched, "The Wise", as powerful, harsh, appear 8- 
15      Physical Limitation,"Cannot Survive Destruction of One 
        Ring", infrequently, fully 
20      Physical Limitation, "Must Move as though a body",  
        frequent, fully 
25      Psychological Limitation, "Dominated by Sauron",  
        very common, total 
20      Psychological Limitation, "Hatred of Free Peoples",  
        common, total 
20      Psychological Limitation, "Fear of Fire", very common,strong 
10      Public ID, "Witch-King of Angmar" 
15      Reputation, "Evil Sorcerer", occur 11-, extreme reputation 
5       Reputation, "Cannot be slain by man", occur 8- 
5       Susceptibility, "To Normal Weapons not wielded by Man", 
        Damage as Consume Spirit 
10      Vulnerability,"Magic Weapons", uncommon, x2 body 
        Damage as Consume Spirit 
487     MIB Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 670 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 745 
 
The Lord of the Nazgul was the first and greatest of Sauron's  
mortal servants to fall under the sway of the Rings of Power.   
A Numenorean lord of the line of Elros, he had come to worship  
Morgoth under the influence of Sauron, and had become 
a powerful sorcerer and necromancer.  The gift of the Ring 
of Power sealed his fate, completely submerging his will to 
that of his evil master and granting him immortality at the cost 
of becoming a wraith. 
 
He served his master as Warden of Dol Guldur in the Second 
Age, but hid when his countrymen of Numenor came to take 
Sauron in chains to their island.  He returned to serve his master 
during the War of the Last Alliance.   
 
He rose again in Third Age 1300 to found the northern realm of 
Angmar, in the guise of the Witch-King.  His goal was to weaken 
the crumbling dunedain realm of Arnor for Sauron.  Arnor first split 
into three squabbling nations and then finally crumbled.  But the 
Witch-King's forces were routed in Third Age 1975 at the Battle of 
Fornost, and he was forced to flee to his master.  It was on this 
occasion that the elf Glorfindel spoke the prophetic words that 
The Witch-King would not be slain by any man. 
 
Twenty-five years later, in 2000, he led the assault on the Gondorian  
city of Minas Ithil, which he then renamed Minas Morgul.  This paved  
the way for Sauron's return to power in Mordor.  In 2043 and 2050,  
he  challenged Earnur, king of Gondor, to single combat.  Earnur's 
horse had fled from the Lord of the Nazgul in terror at the battle 
of Fornost, and the king was shamed by it.  In 2050, he came to  
Minas Morgul to accept the challenge and was treacherously slain. 
 
Around 3010, Sauron became aware, through Gollum, that the One 
Ring had probably been found.  The Lord of the Nazgul was sent to 
lead the search for the Ring, and hunted Frodo from the Shire to 
Rivendell.  He nearly killed him at  Weathertop (Amon Sul).  During 
the War of the Ring, he led the army that assaulted Minas Tirith.  
Although the gates of the city were shattered, he was prevented  
from entering by Gandalf and the timely arrival of the Rohirrim. 
 
In addition to many others, the Lord of the Nazgul killed King Theoden 
of Rohan on the Pelennor Fields, but he was himself slain by the  
woman Eowyn and the hobbit Merry Brandybuck. 
 
The Nazgul-king became invisible when he passed into unlife. 
Not that he could not be perceived, merely that his own form was 
forever after wreathed in shadow.  Only someone perceiving him 
through magic could see his own, terrible face.   
 
Like his master, the Lord of the Nazgul was not immaterial. 
He had a solid body that was able to suffer damage, but which 
was immensely vital and hard to permanently damage.  Also, like 
all of the nine nazgul, he feared water, possibly because of the 
power of Ulmo, the only Valar who never left Middle-Earth. 
 
The Lord of the Nazgul has many names.  The Black King, The 
Witch King, The Morgul King, The Morgul Lord, The Lord of the  
Nine Riders, The King of the Nine Riders, The King of Minas Morgul, 
The Black Rider, The Black Shadow, The Dwimmerlaik and the 
High Nazgul.  The word 'nazgul' is Black Speech for "Ring-wraith". 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Iron Crown Enterprises excellent "Middle-Earth" series of gaming 
supplements has The Lord of the Nazgul as Murazor, twin of the  
Numenorean prince Imrazor, who founded the Gondorian 
line of the Princes of Belfalas.   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
NOTES: 
1) The many helpful notes I received after my first draft prompted 
me to rethink this character.  Specifically, I rethought his defenses  
and decided he was best modelled using the Spirit Rules.  Consider: 
the nazgul were swept away by the flood Elrond raised and Gandalf 
augmented.  Their steeds were killed but they were unharmed. Merry's 
barrow-sword was able to very seriously wound the nazgul, yet even 
Eowyn's (as far as we know) non-magical sword harmed the nazgul, 
despite the fact that millennia of wars against the dunedain had  
produced not a scratch. 
 
The truth is that Tolkien is not concerned with the sort of consistency 
that makes for good game mechanics.  I think this construct will serve 
to represent the nazgul's partial invulnerability, however. 
 
2) Some people questioned the talents I had given the nazgul in the 
first version.  On reflection, I agree.  The skills, however, I defend. 
Bureaucratics is a result of seven centuries of rule over a large kingdom. 
He isn't a paper-pusher, but he knows how things are run.  Admittedly, 
there aren't many fancy soirees in Mordor; the High Society skill is meant 
to reflect the nazgul's origin as a Numenorean prince.  He still knows all 
the courtly graces, but more importantly, he knows how to think like a  
nobleman.   
 
3) Upon re-reading the chapter "Many Meetings", wherein Gandalf  
describes the Morgul-knife, I now see that these vicious knives 
were -designed- to have slivers break off.  Thus, I have removed the 
Activation limitation.  I have also changed this from a cumulative 
Transform to a gradual Transform. 
 
4) I changed the Black Breath to a gradual drain. 
 
5) The Lord of the Nazgul's main physical weapon is a mace, not a  
sword.   
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"Nor law nor duty bade me fight, 
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds, 
A lonely impulse of delight 
Drove to this tumult in the clouds." 
        W.B. Yeats, An Irish Airman Forsees His Death 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #201 
***************************** 


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