Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 203
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 1:42 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #203
champ-l-digest Saturday, February 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 203
In this issue:
EC Pool Question
Virus (was: Paying END sporadically)
Re: Happy99.exe
Vehicle Powers
Character: Oathbreaker, Typical
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: Happy99.exe
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: Paying END sporadically
Re: EC Pool Question
The Death of Happy99.exe
Re: Paying END sporadically
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: Paying END sporadically
Re: Desolidification
Re: Desolidification
Re: Paying END sporadically
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: Desolidification
Re: EC Pool Question
Re: Desolidification
Re: Paying END sporadically
Re: Desolidification
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:08:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
Subject: EC Pool Question
Here is ny question regarding EC pools.
When placing Characteristics into an EC pool, can you place more than one stat
into the same EC slot? i.e. Can I plac STR and DEX into the same slot?
thanks-
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/ ....
"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?" ... Real Genius
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:45:47 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Virus (was: Paying END sporadically)
At 12:25 PM 2/12/99 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
>
>
>>
>>And this is why you always run a virus checker BEFORE you open any
>attachments
>
>
>Did. And it utterly failed to detect the damn thing. I'm getting new DAT
>files now.
Mine also failed to find it, even when I was looking right at it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Nor law nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds."
W.B. Yeats, An Irish Airman Forsees His Death
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:59:41 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Happy99.exe
At 02:12 PM 2/12/99 -0500, David A. Fair wrote:
>exucurt@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>>So what are you saying ? This has been bought with the 'sticky'
>>advantage ?
>>Does that mean computer viruses are bought as entangles ?
>
>No, they are Transforms.
>
All right! Now this is just getting silly!
.... Um .... unlike ... uh ... a bunch of ... um, grown men ...
er ... sitting around, pretending ... um ... to be .... well ...
never mind.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:13:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Vehicle Powers
Bob,
did you bother to write up a search/spot light in TUV? And if yes, how
did you do it?
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Think for yourselves and question authority."
Dr. Timothy Leary
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:44:39 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Oathbreaker, Typical
DEAD MAN OF DUNHARROW, TYPICAL
12 STR 2
11 DEX 3
11 CON 2
10 BODY 0
10 INT 0
12 EGO 4
25 PRE 15
10 COM 0
3 PD 1
3 ED 1
3 SPD 9
4 REC 0
22 END 0
22 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 37
2 2/2 Damage Resistance
24 Life Support, doesn't breathe, doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,
safe in heat and cold, immune to disease, immune to aging
13 2" Change Environment, "Gloom and Mist", Always On,
0 END Persistent
25 Spatial Awareness
5 Sense Life
8 1 Level, all combat
Powers Cost: 92
Total Cost: 129
Base Points: 75
20 Distinctive Features, "Walking Dead and Aura of Death",
not concealable, major
20 Physical Limitation, "Cannot Leave Paths of the Dead without
Isildur's heir", all the time, greatly
10 Psychological Limitation, "Oath to Isildur", uncommon, strong
4 Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 54
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 129
In Second Age 3320, The Realms in Exile (Gondor and Arnor)
were founded by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion. Isildur
had brought a massive black stone said to have fallen from heaven
and placed it at the head of the river later to be known as Morthond
(Blackroot) high in the Ered Nimrais (White Mountains).
On this stone, the king of the mountain people swore an oath to Isildur
to support him in time of need against the growing power of Sauron.
But the mountain people had been followers of Sauron for some time
and when the Dark Lord invaded Gondor in 3429, they did nothing.
When the Last Alliance of Men and Elves crossed the Misty mountains
in 3434, the mountain people broke their oath and refused to make
war on Sauron, though they dared not war on the Alliance, either.
For this treachery, and by the power of the oaths which the mountain
people had sworn in the names of the Valar, Isildur cursed them to
never know death until they should fulfill their oath to him or to his
descendants. Isildur died nine years later. Ever after, when one of
the mountain people died, he was brought to Dunharrow and the
Paths of the Dead, where he lived a life-in-death, waiting down the
long millennia for a chance to be released from the world.
That chance finally came more than three thousand years later, during
the War of the Ring. Needing speed and allies, Aragorn, the direct
descendant of Isildur heeded Elrond's advice to take the Paths of the Dead.
The Dead followed him through the tunnel under the White Mountains from
Dunharrow in Rohan to Erech in Gondor. There on the oathstone, he gave
the dead a chance to redeem themselves from the curse, and they accepted.
They rode with him from Erech to Pelargir, where they overwhelmed
the Corsairs of Umbar, who had allied with Sauron and were looting
that port city. From Pelargir, the Dead rode with Aragorn to Minas
Tirith, where they turned the tide at the battle of the Pelennor Fields.
Having finally fulfilled their oaths to Isildur and Aragorn, they at last
passed from this world to the Fate of Men.
The dead were physical, trapped undying in their once-living bodies.
They were pale and ghostly, however, and a chill mist wrapped them
around.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above is as far as Tolkien takes us in "The Lord of the Rings".
ICE's "Southern Gondor: The People" goes further, naming the
King of the Dead (Morthec Gruan) and identifies the relations of the
Oathbreakers to other proto-Gondorian peoples. The Paths of the
Dead are identified as "Lugh Gobha", the city of Gobha, a disguise
under which Sauron taught the mountain people (the "Daen Coentis")
to forge iron and to work stone.
In this work, it is not only the original oathbreakers who are doomed to
suffer the fate of undeath, but all their mortal descendants, upon death.
The mountain people become a reclusive group, staying near to Erech
so that their dead can be properly delivered to Lugh Gobha before they
rise to plague the living.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTES:
1) Tolkien is vague as to whether the Dead Men are physical or
not. I have chosen to represent them as physical.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Nor law nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds."
W.B. Yeats, An Irish Airman Forsees His Death
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:34:29 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
At 04:08 PM 2/12/99 -0600, Brats Incorporated wrote:
>Here is ny question regarding EC pools.
>
>When placing Characteristics into an EC pool, can you place more than one
stat
>into the same EC slot? i.e. Can I plac STR and DEX into the same slot?
>
No more so than you can place two powers in the same slot.
Just guessing ... Are you just trying to bump up the active points
in that particular slot so that the numbers all come out even?
(I'm assuming that you're talking about an "Environmental Control".
I've never heard it referred to as an "EC pool".) You could just
create a second EC for the smaller stuff, and use the same limitations
that you gave the big control.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:57:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Happy99.exe
>
> At 02:12 PM 2/12/99 -0500, David A. Fair wrote:
> >exucurt@exu.ericsson.se writes:
> >>So what are you saying ? This has been bought with the 'sticky'
> >>advantage ?
> >>Does that mean computer viruses are bought as entangles ?
> >
> >No, they are Transforms.
> >
>
>
Looks to me like **Invisible** **Sticky** Transforms.
But, do they have a fringe effect ?
Curt
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1999 18:07:49 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"BI" == Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net> writes:
BI> When placing Characteristics into an EC pool, can you place more than
BI> one stat into the same EC slot? i.e. Can I plac STR and DEX into the
BI> same slot?
Yes, but when you do that you must use STR and DEX in equal proportion,
since a single slot of an EC is considered to be a single power.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1999 18:09:09 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
>> My God Filksinger, I HOPE to hell this was a joke and you didnt just
>> distribute this virus to the entire list!!!
MS> Happy99.exe does this on it's own.
Not on my system, it don't. Mine does not automatically run anything,
especially things attached in mail messages.
Then again, Linux is my OS of choice, so it won't work, anyway. :)
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:01:10 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
>Here is ny question regarding EC pools.
>
>When placing Characteristics into an EC pool, can you place more than one stat
>into the same EC slot? i.e. Can I plac STR and DEX into the same slot?
I'm going to assume you don't want to hear how bad an idea putting
characteristics in an EC is, so I'll just go directly to the question;
normally multiple powers cannot be placed in a single EC slot.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:47:16 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: The Death of Happy99.exe
Some additional updates on the happy99.exe worm program.
First, if you think you might have been infected, search your hard drive for
liste.ska. You should find it in your c:\windows\system directory. Open it
in notepad. It will contain the email addresses of everyone you have sent
the file to by email. It does _not_ say who you sent the file to by Usenet
or other newsgroups. If this file exists on your machine, and contains email
addresses, you are fully infected.
Secondly, I have removed the file from my machine by hand, and have produced
a batch file to remove it automatically. Anyone who wants this file and
short instructions on how to use it can email me for a copy.
Note: If you think you can follow the instructions for manual removal
instead, do that instead.
And finally, my sincere apologies. I only reinstalled everything on this
machine two days ago, and hadn't updated my anti-virus DAT files yet. This
will teach me never to make that mistake again.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:53:41 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>MS> Happy99.exe does this on it's own.
>
>Not on my system, it don't. Mine does not automatically run anything,
>especially things attached in mail messages.
You misunderstand. Once it infects your machine, _then_ it automatically
runs whenever you send email or news messages.
>Then again, Linux is my OS of choice, so it won't work, anyway. :)
No, it wouldn't. Of course, as time goes on, and more and more people use
Linux (if they do), eventually Linux viruses will begin to propagate. But
that is still in the future, and may never happen.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:52:32 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) wrote:
>I'm going to assume you don't want to hear how bad an idea putting
>characteristics in an EC is, so I'll just go directly to the question;
>normally multiple powers cannot be placed in a single EC slot.
>
Actually, technically, you can put Linked(*) powers in the same slot of
an EC. However, this would mean that your DEX would only be in effect
while you were using your STR. Are Characteristics considered "Always
On"? I assume not, since you have to pay END for STR use. I don't even
want to consider the possible SFX rationale behind having +10 DEX that
only kicks in while I'm exerting my STR... How would it be useful?
Would my GM allow me to 'flex my muscles', just so I could complete my
gymnastics routine? Best not to even contemplate it.
*(Now I've done it! I mentioned the dreaded "L-word"...)
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:54:00 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> I'm going to assume you don't want to hear how bad an idea putting
WS> characteristics in an EC is, so I'll just go directly to the question;
WS> normally multiple powers cannot be placed in a single EC slot.
Umm... since when?
The proscription is against linking a power in one slot to a power in
another slot, not in putting several powers into a single slot. There is
no reason why not to put more than one power in an EC slot -- thing to
remember is that if you do that the combined power becomes a new power in
its own right. You cannot put DEX and STR in a single slot and use just
the DEX; the STR must be used, and the END for it must be paid.
Also, one must remember that characteristics in a Framework get 'no figured
characteristics' for 'free' (no bonus).
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:54:14 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> I'm going to assume you don't want to hear how bad an idea putting
WS> characteristics in an EC is, so I'll just go directly to the question;
WS> normally multiple powers cannot be placed in a single EC slot.
Umm... since when?
The proscription is against linking a power in one slot to a power in
another slot, not in putting several powers into a single slot. There is
no reason why not to put more than one power in an EC slot -- thing to
remember is that if you do that the combined power becomes a new power in
its own right. You cannot put DEX and STR in a single slot and use just
the DEX; the STR must be used, and the END for it must be paid.
Also, one must remember that characteristics in a Framework get 'no figured
characteristics' for 'free' (no bonus).
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:49:16 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> You misunderstand. Once it infects your machine, _then_ it automatically
F> runs whenever you send email or news messages.
No, you misunderstant. It will never infect my machine because it will
never be run on my machine in the first place. Since it will never be
executed, it cannot function as a trojan horse. OS is irrelevant to this:
if you do not run it, it cannot infect your system, period.
F> No, it wouldn't. Of course, as time goes on, and more and more people use
F> Linux (if they do), eventually Linux viruses will begin to propagate. But
F> that is still in the future, and may never happen.
Well, that cannot happen. Unix (and Linux) by design is a protected system
and memory architecture, which makes it impossible for a virus to infect a
system. It cannot, because it does not have the priveleges to do so. Same
goes for just about all other multi-user operating systems. Single-user
operating systems like all flavors of Microsoft Windows (including NT),
Macintosh, AmigaDOS, what have you, are all vulnerable as they have little
or no memory or system protection.
Enough with the sysmonsterly rant.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:16:25 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
"Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" wrote:
> At 03:46 PM 2/8/1999 -0600, Lance Dyas wrote:
> >Oh I think i just understood this entire argument....
> >in classic understanding of the astrally projected
> >individual is out of his body... and is a mind
> >no longer protected by the structures of his
> >brain/nervous system...
>
> This would seem to describe a Vulnerability to mental powers on the part of
> the disembodied. It's an interesting idea for an individual character, but
> what I'm wondering about is cost, not effect.
>
I think I would prefer to tack a mental vulnerability in as default for
astrally projected or disembodied characters but allow them a compensatingly
cheaper able to affects non disembodied characters for mental (ego based)
powers
>
> Based somewhat on your suggestion, OTOH, you could argue that without the
> support of the physical brain, a mind doesn't have the necessary *oomph* to
> be able to affect a mind that *is* supported by a physical brain.
Hmmm sorcerous energies classically require a physical conduit to enter the
material realm... i guess that is well simulated by a prohibitive cost when out
of body
> Such a
> rationale would allow Desolid mentalists to affect each other normally,
> solid mentalists to affect each other normally, and solid mentalists to
> affect Desolid characters (mentalist or otherwise) normally, but would
> require Desolid mentalists to buy the +2 Advantage to compensate for their
> lack of a physical brain.
>
>>
>> This isn't even a silly notion, it's just that I read nothing in the rules
>> to suggest it was the default assumption. But the fact that Desolid lists
>> no such side effects for characters (most of whom can presumably turn the
>> power on and off) argues against its use.
>
>
> Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:30:35 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Hmmm I have enjoyed the conversation and consider astral projection a standard in
my fantasy game world... handling it well and clearly seems very important and I
do definitely agree that its balance needs examined.
"Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" wrote:
> At 03:53 PM 2/9/1999 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >
> >Now compare it to what you get for that cost. The minimum cost isn't the
> >point; what you get for it is.
>
> Once again, Desolid is the single most expensive Power in the game.
> Naturally I expect it to carry considerable benefits. Cost is an absolute
> measurement, and thus a better solid basis for comparison than a subjective
> term like "value". The value of any given Power will vary from character
> to character, player to player, campaign to campaign and even situation to
> situation within a single campaign.
>
> >>My *only* problem with this entire situation was that I thought it make
> >>sense to treat the "hole" you refer to as a window that would allow the
> >>free exchange of fire in both directions (and only for mental powers, as
> >>I've said repeatedly), not some bizarre inverted Force Field that allowed
> >>outside attacks to freely penetrate, but blocked the same outgoing mental
> >>attack unless a +2 Advantage was applied.
> >
> >And as I've said, make sense or not, it's still abusive; it still allows the
> >Desolid character to rule the battlefield in far too many situations because
> >there will be no one who can attack him in return.
>
> If, for any given Power, the SFX treatment that clearly makes the most
> sense cannot be allowed into the game, something is clearly wrong with (a)
> the game system, or (b) the ability of the GM to control his own campaign.
> NOTHING is inherently abusive. Many things leave considerable room for
> abuse if GMs allow players to expolit them (or if players allow GMs, I
> guess).
>
> Warning labels, in the form of magnifying glasses and stop signs, have been
> applied to some of the Powers that are more likely than others to be
> utilized in an abusive manner. This doesn't mean you can't use the Power
> with SFX that follow as a logical consequence; it only means you need to be
> careful with it.
>
> >Or that the SFX are, by their nature, overpowered. There are things that
> >work in the comics because the writers chronically underutilize them but
> >would break a game very thoroughly.
>
> And you can find no other way of restoring balance? The only thing that
> occurs to you is to dismiss logical consequences of SFX, for Powers common
> to the comic/cinematic genre, because doing otherwise allows one character
> to be more powerful than another?
>
> I've taken up more than enough of the list's time on this. I have not
> heard one person support my side of this discussion, nor have I made the
> slightest headway in convincing any of my worthy opponents that anything
> I've said might be worth considering. (No one's been rude about it,
> though.) Move on to something else.
>
> Damon
>
> -----------------------
> It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety.
> -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:51:56 -0500
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campuscwix.net>
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically
>I must have been unclear. I was asking for suggestions on how to model
>powers that cost END, but only when they do something. For example, a
>character with Damage Shield, who spends no END to maintain the field, but
>spends END to damage things. Or, a Force Wall that stays up without much
>effort, but every time someone hits it, you pay END.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
Perhaps getting a Limitation on the 0 Endurance Advantage would work?
Email Address change:Please update to the following:
nexus@uky.campuscwix.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:08:09 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
At 05:34 PM 2/12/99 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 04:08 PM 2/12/99 -0600, Brats Incorporated wrote:
>>Here is ny question regarding EC pools.
>>
>>When placing Characteristics into an EC pool, can you place more than one
>stat
>>into the same EC slot? i.e. Can I plac STR and DEX into the same slot?
>>
>
>No more so than you can place two powers in the same slot.
>
I stand corrected. While the rules are not terribly clear, multiple
powers in a single slot (linked) are mentioned on pg. 112.
And since Characteristics can be bought as powers, then I suppose
you could put two into a slot.
Now the question becomes, do the powers HAVE to be linked. The book
says that powers that are linked must be in a single slot. But it
says nothing about two powers in the slot HAVING to be linked.
Personally, I don't see the point, but what the hell.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:55:05 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >At 03:53 PM 2/9/1999 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >>
> >>Now compare it to what you get for that cost. The minimum cost isn't the
> >>point; what you get for it is.
> >
> >Once again, Desolid is the single most expensive Power in the game.
> >Naturally I expect it to carry considerable benefits. Cost is an absolute
> >measurement, and thus a better solid basis for comparison than a subjective
> >term like "value". The value of any given Power will vary from character
> >to character, player to player, campaign to campaign and even situation to
> >situation within a single campaign.
>
> Fine. Then compare it to a 20/20 Force Field if you prefer. Expense can
> only be assessed that way, because Desolid, unlike most powers is fairly
> absolute; you either have it or you don't. There is little gradient.
>
> >>And as I've said, make sense or not, it's still abusive; it still allows the
> >>Desolid character to rule the battlefield in far too many situations because
> >>there will be no one who can attack him in return.
> >
> >If, for any given Power, the SFX treatment that clearly makes the most
> >sense cannot be allowed into the game, something is clearly wrong with (a)
> >the game system, or (b) the ability of the GM to control his own campaign.
> >NOTHING is inherently abusive. Many things leave considerable room for
> >abuse if GMs allow players to expolit them (or if players allow GMs, I
> >guess).
>
> I disagree with the premise; some abilities are, indeed, intrinsically
> abusive. As I said elsewhere, they only exist comfortably in the
> sourceworks because in the sourceworks a character never does anything the
> author doesn't want them to. Games should be held to a more rigorous standard.
>
> >
> >Warning labels, in the form of magnifying glasses and stop signs, have been
> >applied to some of the Powers that are more likely than others to be
> >utilized in an abusive manner. This doesn't mean you can't use the Power
> >with SFX that follow as a logical consequence; it only means you need to be
> >careful with it.
>
> There are none the less limits as to what the intended use of even those
> abilities are; allowing a single power to be a perfect unassailable attack
> platform in many common situations is not something that should be
> encouraged by making it easy.
Hmmm in my fantasy game world.... hedgemagic aka superstition magic which affects
only spirits.... aka desolids are extremely common.... and in some places they are
performed almost nonchalantly sometimes by characters who dont know whether they
reallly work the most common two kinds of effects.
Many anti-spirit talismans proliferate as well and are the most commonly requested
talisman (second to love magic... ) from talismongers (common everyday enchanters
who sell their goods).
area effect spirit pain (mental attack damage only versus desolids)
area effect fog style blindness (ego based only versus desolids)
desolids are vulnerable due to a lack of physical body... and most have a standard
may take body damage from mental attacks.
Most undead in my gameworld are ghost/spirit, revanent ilk... and astral projection
is considered a standard ability by full blown wizards.
Making sure the mechanics are balanced and in an interesting fashion for this
stuff seems rather important in this context.
>
>
> >
> >>Or that the SFX are, by their nature, overpowered. There are things that
> >>work in the comics because the writers chronically underutilize them but
> >>would break a game very thoroughly.
> >
> >And you can find no other way of restoring balance? The only thing that
> >occurs to you is to dismiss logical consequences of SFX, for Powers common
> >to the comic/cinematic genre, because doing otherwise allows one character
> >to be more powerful than another?
>
> Other than forbidding the ability altogehter, yes. There are all sorts of
> logical consequences of SFX that are potentially abusive if given for free;
> the answer is to not give them for free. This is one of those cases.
>
> >
> >I've taken up more than enough of the list's time on this. I have not
> >heard one person support my side of this discussion, nor have I made the
> >slightest headway in convincing any of my worthy opponents that anything
> >I've said might be worth considering. (No one's been rude about it,
> >though.) Move on to something else.
>
> I think, and I do not necessarily mean it in any derogatory manner, that the
> problem is you are approaching this in a fashion rather contrary to the
> design of the Hero System. The Hero System is designed primarily around
> effects in it's pricing, and with some minor exceptions, ignores causes, and
> frankly many of the logical side effects of a given special effect. Or put
> simply, if one wants something, one pays for it, except for minor issues.
> The system doesn't prevent you from making attacks when desolid; it simply
> charges you for it. And it allows some attacks to work through desolid even
> though this is the case because it was the designer's assumptions that this
> was necessary to prevent the power from getting out of hand, even then.
> Attempting to bypass this balancing for free simply doesn't seem a very good
> idea to most of us, no matter how justified it is on a purely SFX basis.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:56:20 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: EC Pool Question
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> I'm going to assume you don't want to hear how bad an idea putting
>WS> characteristics in an EC is, so I'll just go directly to the question;
>WS> normally multiple powers cannot be placed in a single EC slot.
>
>Umm... since when?
>
>The proscription is against linking a power in one slot to a power in
>another slot, not in putting several powers into a single slot. There is
>no reason why not to put more than one power in an EC slot -- thing to
>remember is that if you do that the combined power becomes a new power in
>its own right. You cannot put DEX and STR in a single slot and use just
>the DEX; the STR must be used, and the END for it must be paid.
That's more or less what I meant; since in this context, it was hard to see
how treating the two attributes as one was going to be any different than
treating them seperate.
>
>Also, one must remember that characteristics in a Framework get 'no figured
>characteristics' for 'free' (no bonus).
That's actually interpetational, since I believe it only mentions that in
regard to characterstics in a Multipower. Of course you could assume that
was the general intent, since Multipowers are the only framework the game
suggests letting you _put_ a characteristic in.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:02:57 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
>> There are none the less limits as to what the intended use of even those
>> abilities are; allowing a single power to be a perfect unassailable attack
>> platform in many common situations is not something that should be
>> encouraged by making it easy.
>
>Hmmm in my fantasy game world.... hedgemagic aka superstition magic which
affects
>only spirits.... aka desolids are extremely common.... and in some places
they are
>performed almost nonchalantly sometimes by characters who dont know whether
they
>reallly work the most common two kinds of effects.
>
>Many anti-spirit talismans proliferate as well and are the most commonly
requested
>talisman (second to love magic... ) from talismongers (common everyday
enchanters
>who sell their goods).
>
>area effect spirit pain (mental attack damage only versus desolids)
>area effect fog style blindness (ego based only versus desolids)
>
>desolids are vulnerable due to a lack of physical body... and most have a
standard
>may take body damage from mental attacks.
>
>Most undead in my gameworld are ghost/spirit, revanent ilk... and astral
projection
>is considered a standard ability by full blown wizards.
>
>Making sure the mechanics are balanced and in an interesting fashion for this
>stuff seems rather important in this context.
Sure. But that just proves that any general balance rule can be incorrect
in a particular context; that doesn't make the rule a bad default
assumption. In this case, when you get down to it, most powers are written
up primarily targeted at a modern context with superbeings present, and make
some low level assumptions as to the commonality of (in this case) mental
powers. The need to reassess it in your case is obvious; but that's true of
other effects also; TK can, for example, easily be overpowered in a fantasy
setting where super strength and the like are preportionately uncommon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:46:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Paying END sporadically
On 12 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> You misunderstand. Once it infects your machine, _then_ it automatically
> F> runs whenever you send email or news messages.
>
> No, you misunderstant. It will never infect my machine because it will
> never be run on my machine in the first place. Since it will never be
> executed, it cannot function as a trojan horse. OS is irrelevant to this:
> if you do not run it, it cannot infect your system, period.
Yes, which (to me) is obvious. You don't run .exe files that roll in by
random.
> F> No, it wouldn't. Of course, as time goes on, and more and more people use
> F> Linux (if they do), eventually Linux viruses will begin to propagate. But
> F> that is still in the future, and may never happen.
>
> Well, that cannot happen. Unix (and Linux) by design is a protected system
> and memory architecture, which makes it impossible for a virus to infect a
> system. It cannot, because it does not have the priveleges to do so. Same
> goes for just about all other multi-user operating systems. Single-user
> operating systems like all flavors of Microsoft Windows (including NT),
> Macintosh, AmigaDOS, what have you, are all vulnerable as they have little
> or no memory or system protection.
Possibly not for long. Macintosh OS X is going to be using a UNIX kernal
as it's base, so it too may be more resistant to viruses. Of course, it
will still have to deal with the Word Marco virus problem...
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I don't care where I go, as long as it ain't here..."
George Thorogood, "Gear Jammer"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:39:22 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >> There are none the less limits as to what the intended use of even those
> >> abilities are; allowing a single power to be a perfect unassailable attack
> >> platform in many common situations is not something that should be
> >> encouraged by making it easy.
> >
> >Hmmm in my fantasy game world.... hedgemagic aka superstition magic which
> affects
> >only spirits.... aka desolids are extremely common.... and in some places
> they are
> >performed almost nonchalantly sometimes by characters who dont know whether
> they
> >reallly work the most common two kinds of effects.
> >
> >Many anti-spirit talismans proliferate as well and are the most commonly
> requested
> >talisman (second to love magic... ) from talismongers (common everyday
> enchanters
> >who sell their goods).
> >
> >area effect spirit pain (mental attack damage only versus desolids)
> >area effect fog style blindness (ego based only versus desolids)
> >
> >desolids are vulnerable due to a lack of physical body... and most have a
> standard
> >may take body damage from mental attacks.
> >
> >Most undead in my gameworld are ghost/spirit, revanent ilk... and astral
> projection
> >is considered a standard ability by full blown wizards.
> >
> >Making sure the mechanics are balanced and in an interesting fashion for this
> >stuff seems rather important in this context.
>
> Sure. But that just proves that any general balance rule can be incorrect
> in a particular context; that doesn't make the rule a bad default
> assumption. In this case, when you get down to it, most powers are written
> up primarily targeted at a modern context with superbeings present, and make
> some low level assumptions as to the commonality of (in this case) mental
> powers. The need to reassess it in your case is obvious; but that's true of
> other effects also; TK can, for example, easily be overpowered in a fantasy
> setting where super strength and the like are preportionately uncommon.
Actually aside from the fact that the cost maybe high for the wizard types... im
not
convinced it is incorrect even in my fantasy game context, only the most powerful
of ghosts should be truly dangerous against the living (presence based fear attacks
arent
affected by being desolid are they?) And spiritual power only works well with a
physical
conduit into the world... some ghosts use there corpses or fragments of their
corpses in this way (offsetting that +2 cost to affect desolid things) but if you
destroy/ruin/bless the corpse poof they are enfeebled.
I also didnt mention the hazards of leaving a body behind when you astral project
(you might find your body inhabited when you return this could be simulated with a
backlash attached to the the magic roll the higher the skill roll the less chance
your wards failed... the fight to reclaim your body could be emulated with a bunch
of mental attack damage ) or the nasties in the astral plane itself could attack
your spirit during your journey. These can bring the cost of the projection itself
down considerably. The body is physically very vulnerable without you in it as
well.
Any way... I obviously havent fully got this fully wired down.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #203
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Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 10:34 AM