Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 215
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 8:12 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #215
champ-l-digest Wednesday, February 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 215
In this issue:
RE: Aberrant
RE: Aberrant
Re: Aberrant
RE: Aberrant
Help me with a few concepts
Re: Aberrant
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Help me with a few concepts
Re: Aberrant
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:29:48 -0500
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campuscwix.net>
Subject: RE: Aberrant
>
>I like the skill web enough that I have been trying to figure out how
>to import it into HERO with minimal disruption. And minimal success,
>so far.
>
>By minimal disruption, I mean so little that it could be in 6th Ed, or
>possibly even 5th if it wasn't too late.
I'm not very familar with Shadowrun. Just what is the Skill Web?
Email Address change:Please update to the following:
nexus@uky.campuscwix.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:49:40 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Aberrant
Forgive me, but I'm not familiar with this skill web. When we're talking
about a skill web, I assume we're talking about a map showing similarities
between skills, not unlike Hero's similar languages map. If that's the case,
a skill web would essentially show you what skills can be treated as
complimentary relative to anyother skill, yes?
If all my assumptions are correct, how could you make it complete for all
genres? Clearly, skills vary wildly between genres and even relate
differently to one another. Acrobatics might be complementary to Combat
Piloting [Wyvern Glider] but not to Combat Piloting [Galaxy Class Starship].
Am I totally off the mark here?
] I like the skill web enough that I have been trying to figure out how
] to import it into HERO with minimal disruption. And minimal success,
] so far.
]
] By minimal disruption, I mean so little that it could be in 6th Ed, or
] possibly even 5th if it wasn't too late.
]
] Filksinger
]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:49:32 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aberrant
[snip comments about the Shadowrun Skill Web and importing it to Champions]
>By minimal disruption, I mean so little that it could be in 6th Ed, or
>possibly even 5th if it wasn't too late.
What have you tried? I haven't done this, but here's what comes to mind, all
of which are probably too complex for the new player:
1. Create a related skill grouping system similar to the one used for
Languages to reduce costs of skills.
2. Have a default skill rule, such as in GURPS.
3. Create a skill web, and have some penalty for each step away like in
Shadowrun, say, a -2.
A. This one is way too radical, so isn't what you asked about: Eliminate
skills altogether. Only have levels, 2,3,5,8, and 10 points, and have all
skills start at some very basic level. Create a skill web like in Shadowrun.
Two point levels apply to one skill, 3 to a skill and those adjacent, 5 to a
skill and two adjacent, and so on. Each step outside of that gives a -2 to
the role (or whatever). That about gives you the same feel as Shadowrun
while using Hero mechanics, or close to them.
Just rambling
JAJ,GP
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 99 12:54:19 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Aberrant
"Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> wrote:
> I like the skill web enough that I have been trying to figure out how
> to import it into HERO with minimal disruption. And minimal success,
> so far.
>
> By minimal disruption, I mean so little that it could be in 6th Ed, or
> possibly even 5th if it wasn't too late.
>
> Filksinger
Wouldn't that be a bit like the Language Chart, but for skills?
Hm... Accrobatics has a 3pt similarity to Breakfall, and 2 to
Contortionist....
Of course, given the overwhelming popularity of the Language Chart.....
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:07:06 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Help me with a few concepts
I have a player who is building a commando-type character. Basically, he's
a gun-toter similar to the Punisher or one of the operatives in the Rainbow
Six computer game. He has a few ideas that either I don't like or am not
sure how to implement, so I thought I'd hit this list for 2nd opinions:
* He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
what's the defense? Rubber clothing might work, but is that common enough
to qualify for the "common set of circumstances" that NND requires? I
don't think so.... How would you implement a Tazer? Not the ones that
shoot a cable out, but the ones that just have an electric current at the
end of the hand-held unit--No Range, in other words.
* He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
leg. Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
I really don't like this idea, especially since we don't use the Hit
Location table (and I don't want to start). I just don't like using hit
location as a special effect. His weapon fires energy (as opposed to
bullets), so I told him he could just define the drain as a different type
of energy that he can fire by pushing a button on the gun or whatever. He
really likes the idea of shooting someone in the leg to make them slow
down, though. How would you handle this?
* He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
these two doesn't make any sense to me. I told him a better idea would be
to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate power (with the same OAF as his EB),
and then he could add No Range Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No
Range Penalty is realistic enough, though. He said he'd like to be able to
spend XP later to buy a better scope, just like you'd do in real life. I
can't remember...is there an advantage which increases the range
increments? I think that would handle the situation. If not, how would
you handle this? I think my suggestion is just fine, but he's resistant to
No Range Penalty for some reason, even though it's a common technique with
published characters. I think he just needs to relax on his realism
requirement a little....
* He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when his
gun fires a shot (the EB). I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said
it's because his character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun
and stuff. I told him I still don't buy it--the only way he could pay the
gun's END would be if there was some mystic link (it feeds off his essence)
or he has cables running from under his flesh to the gun. I told him to
buy either an END Battery for the gun, or use Charges. Am I right about
this one?
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 16:10:01 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aberrant
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* Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| Forgive me, but I'm not familiar with this skill web. When we're talking
| about a skill web, I assume we're talking about a map showing similarities
| between skills, not unlike Hero's similar languages map. If that's the case,
| a skill web would essentially show you what skills can be treated as
| complimentary relative to anyother skill, yes?
Something like that, though in this case it shows what skills can be used
instead of the most appropriate skill if you do not have it. Say you are
put into a situation in which you fighting with a melee weapon. The skill
for that is Armed Combat, but you do not have that. The skill web shows
you what skills or characteristics you could use, and at what kind of
penalty. You could use Unarmed Combat at a small penalty, or Quickness
(ie, Dexterity) at a much greater penalty. Ultimately, everything on the
skill web points to a characteristic, but the penalties may acumulate to
the point where you have no dice left to roll (Skill Web penalites reduce
the number of dice you have to roll).
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 16:41:06 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
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* David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| * He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
| what's the defense?
Nah... a hand-held tazer is IMO better defined as a small Killing Attack
with a hefty Stun Multiplier increase, say 1D6 RKA base plus whatever you
he can afford for Stun Multiple increase.
| * He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
| leg.
Yeah, I can see this... makes sense if you are not otherwise using some
kind of disabling rules or what have you.
| Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
If you are not using the Hit Location table, then this actually is a
reasonable special effect for an RKA, I think.
| * He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
| these two doesn't make any sense to me.
Yeah... that means he can only use the sense when he is shooting someone,
which is probably not what he really wants.
| I told him a better idea would be to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate
| power (with the same OAF as his EB), and then he could add No Range
| Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No Range Penalty is realistic
| enough, though.
No, it isn't. Use Range Modifier skill levels instead for that.
| He said he'd like to be able to spend XP later to buy a better scope,
| just like you'd do in real life. I can't remember...is there an
| advantage which increases the range increments?
Telescopic does not have range increments (I think)... but Range Modifier
skill levels most certainly do.
| * He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when
| his gun fires a shot (the EB).
Unless it is wired to him somehow, which I doubt, I agree with you on this.
It should have Charges or an Endurance Reserve.
| I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said it's because his
| character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun and stuff.
Ish. Not a chance.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 17:11:14 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
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* Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| You could use Unarmed Combat at a small penalty, or Quickness (ie,
| Dexterity) at a much greater penalty. Ultimately, everything on the
| skill web points to a characteristic, but the penalties may acumulate to
| the point where you have no dice left to roll (Skill Web penalites reduce
| the number of dice you have to roll).
I made two mistakes in that. One, Armed and Unarmed Combat cannot default
to Quickness, at least not in second edition Shadowrun (and in fact, some
skills cannot default to attributes at all). Two, the penalties are
increases to T# (difficulty), not reduction in dice.
This leads to some interesting dynamics. Say a character has to move
something heavy, a Strength task. The T# is set at 6. Say the character
has a Strength of 2; if either of his 2 dice roll 6 he succeeds, a 33%
chance of success. Say he also has Unarmed Combat 8 (extreme, unlikely,
but not impossible). The skill web allows him to use Unarmed Combat, at a
+4 difficulty. With 8 dice against a T# 10, he has a 67% chance of
succeeding (ie, at least one die rolls 6 the first time and then 4-6 the
second -- in Shadowrun, if a die rolls up 6, you re-roll it and add to the
previous total).
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Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:40:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Draco Paladin <paladin@uvic.ca>
Subject: Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
On 24 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> This leads to some interesting dynamics. Say a character has to move
> something heavy, a Strength task. The T# is set at 6. Say the character
> has a Strength of 2; if either of his 2 dice roll 6 he succeeds, a 33%
> chance of success. Say he also has Unarmed Combat 8 (extreme, unlikely,
> but not impossible). The skill web allows him to use Unarmed Combat, at a
> +4 difficulty. With 8 dice against a T# 10, he has a 67% chance of
> succeeding (ie, at least one die rolls 6 the first time and then 4-6 the
> second -- in Shadowrun, if a die rolls up 6, you re-roll it and add to the
> previous total).
Also, IIRC (it's been about 7 years since I played), there were two skills
on the skill web without a dot between them, so one could default to the
other with no penalty. My question was, 'Why have two seperate skills
then'. (I think the two skills were throw, and throw knife, which anyone
who has done any knife throwing knows are not the same thing.)
- ---------------------------------------------
Mother is the name for GOD on the lips and
hearts of all children. - Eric Draven
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:44:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
> I have a player who is building a commando-type character. Basically, he's
> a gun-toter similar to the Punisher or one of the operatives in the Rainbow
> Six computer game.
Is this for a super-hero game ?
> * He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
> what's the defense? Rubber clothing might work, but is that common enough
> to qualify for the "common set of circumstances" that NND requires? I
> don't think so.... How would you implement a Tazer? Not the ones that
> shoot a cable out, but the ones that just have an electric current at the
> end of the hand-held unit--No Range, in other words.
NO range EB or no range NND. For an NND, try 'electrical powers' / not
being grounded / force field as defense or defenses.
>
> * He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
> leg. Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
This sounds fine to me. I don't understand your objections. You're not
incorporating hit locations.
> I really don't like this idea, especially since we don't use the Hit
> Location table (and I don't want to start). I just don't like using hit
> location as a special effect.
Matter of taste, I suppose.
His weapon fires energy (as opposed to
> bullets), so I told him he could just define the drain as a different type
> of energy that he can fire by pushing a button on the gun or whatever.
In my opinion, this sounds less reasonable than the player's method of
hit locations as sfx. I'd prefer "I shot him in the leg, so he can't
move as well" for a commando character over "I have a setting on my blaster
that slows peoples running speeds".
> * He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
> these two doesn't make any sense to me. I told him a better idea would be
> to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate power (with the same OAF as his EB),
> and then he could add No Range Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No
> Range Penalty is realistic enough, though. He said he'd like to be able to
> spend XP later to buy a better scope, just like you'd do in real life. I
> can't remember...is there an advantage which increases the range
> increments?
Buy range levels with the EB defined as a scope.
I'd agree with not linking the Telescopic sense and the EB.
>
> * He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when his
> gun fires a shot (the EB). I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said
> it's because his character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun
> and stuff.
Does he want to pay the endurance for the energy blast, or just pay some
endurance ? I'd say no on the EB endurance, but yes on the some endurance.
It's been quite a while, but I remember a rule about it costing 1 point
of endurance to fire a weapon....
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:41:07 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>* David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
>| * He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
>| what's the defense?
>
>Nah... a hand-held tazer is IMO better defined as a small Killing Attack
>with a hefty Stun Multiplier increase, say 1D6 RKA base plus whatever you
>he can afford for Stun Multiple increase.
Don't you think a killing attack is excessive, Rat? I realize someone can
die from excessive tasering, but a normal attack would seem closer to the
likelyhood of doing body with it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:59:06 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
At 03:07 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a player who is building a commando-type character. Basically, he's
>a gun-toter similar to the Punisher or one of the operatives in the Rainbow
>Six computer game. He has a few ideas that either I don't like or am not
>sure how to implement, so I thought I'd hit this list for 2nd opinions:
>
>* He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
>what's the defense? Rubber clothing might work, but is that common enough
>to qualify for the "common set of circumstances" that NND requires? I
>don't think so.... How would you implement a Tazer? Not the ones that
>shoot a cable out, but the ones that just have an electric current at the
>end of the hand-held unit--No Range, in other words.
>
I'd phrase it as "Insulation" - whether that insulation is rubber clothing
or something else. In addition, I'd include "No Normal Nervous System" as
another part of the defense - you can't use a taser on an animate statue,
for isntance. Assuming such things exist in the campaign, of course.
>* He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
>leg. Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
>I really don't like this idea, especially since we don't use the Hit
>Location table (and I don't want to start). I just don't like using hit
>location as a special effect. His weapon fires energy (as opposed to
>bullets), so I told him he could just define the drain as a different type
>of energy that he can fire by pushing a button on the gun or whatever. He
>really likes the idea of shooting someone in the leg to make them slow
>down, though. How would you handle this?
>
I'd do it as the player would - if hit locations aren't a rule, then why
shouldn't they be a special effect?
>* He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
>these two doesn't make any sense to me. I told him a better idea would be
>to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate power (with the same OAF as his EB),
>and then he could add No Range Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No
>Range Penalty is realistic enough, though. He said he'd like to be able to
>spend XP later to buy a better scope, just like you'd do in real life. I
>can't remember...is there an advantage which increases the range
>increments? I think that would handle the situation. If not, how would
>you handle this? I think my suggestion is just fine, but he's resistant to
>No Range Penalty for some reason, even though it's a common technique with
>published characters. I think he just needs to relax on his realism
>requirement a little....
>
He could buy Ranged Attack Levels - through a focus if you allow it.
>* He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when his
>gun fires a shot (the EB). I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said
>it's because his character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun
>and stuff. I told him I still don't buy it--the only way he could pay the
>gun's END would be if there was some mystic link (it feeds off his essence)
>or he has cables running from under his flesh to the gun. I told him to
>buy either an END Battery for the gun, or use Charges. Am I right about
>this one?
>
I'm with you on this one. While the player's SFX would be legal within the
rules, it doesn't make a lot of sense, since most other characters with
guns don't pay END that way.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:30:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
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> Hash: SHA1
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> * David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
> | * He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
> | what's the defense?
>
> Nah... a hand-held tazer is IMO better defined as a small Killing Attack
> with a hefty Stun Multiplier increase, say 1D6 RKA base plus whatever you
> he can afford for Stun Multiple increase.
Actually, a hand-held tazer is reasonably defined as 'energy blast, stun only';
for a realistic one probably not more than 5-6 dice. There's nothing special
about a tazer which makes it able to penetrate armor, it just does enough
damage that most mundane armor isn't all that effective against it.
> | He said he'd like to be able to spend XP later to buy a better scope,
> | just like you'd do in real life. I can't remember...is there an
> | advantage which increases the range increments?
>
> Telescopic does not have range increments (I think)... but Range Modifier
> skill levels most certainly do.
Telescopic has range increments. Each level negates 2 range levels for
purposes of that sense, and is equivalent to a x2 telescopic effect.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:25:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
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> * David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
> | * He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
> | what's the defense?
>
> Nah... a hand-held tazer is IMO better defined as a small Killing Attack
> with a hefty Stun Multiplier increase, say 1D6 RKA base plus whatever you
> he can afford for Stun Multiple increase.
Nah...your average tazer is pretty well implemented by 'energy blast, stun
only' (for a real one, probably about 5d6). There's nothing special about a
tazer that will cause regular energy defense to be ineffective against it,
though its enough dice that most mundane defenses won't be all that effective.
>
> | * He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
> | leg.
>
> Yeah, I can see this... makes sense if you are not otherwise using some
> kind of disabling rules or what have you.
>
> | Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
>
> If you are not using the Hit Location table, then this actually is a
> reasonable special effect for an RKA, I think.
>
> | * He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
> | these two doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Yeah... that means he can only use the sense when he is shooting someone,
> which is probably not what he really wants.
>
> Telescopic does not have range increments (I think)... but Range Modifier
> skill levels most certainly do.
Telescopic has range increments. Each level negates 2 range levels for vision
purposes (it has no effect on attacks in any case).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:49:58 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
At 03:07 PM 2/24/99 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>* He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
>what's the defense? Rubber clothing might work, but is that common enough
>to qualify for the "common set of circumstances" that NND requires? I
>don't think so.... How would you implement a Tazer? Not the ones that
>shoot a cable out, but the ones that just have an electric current at the
>end of the hand-held unit--No Range, in other words.
Technically, I think these are called "stunguns", not "tasers", though one
would think the taser is more of a "gun". I'd call a "stungun" more of a
"microprod". :]
Anyhoo, insulated clothing works, I believe; so does (unfortunately) being
severely intoxicated, apparently. Depending on the device, Growth and/or
Density Increase (stunguns are rated by body weight of target).
>* He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
>leg. Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
>I really don't like this idea, especially since we don't use the Hit
>Location table (and I don't want to start). I just don't like using hit
>location as a special effect. His weapon fires energy (as opposed to
>bullets), so I told him he could just define the drain as a different type
>of energy that he can fire by pushing a button on the gun or whatever. He
>really likes the idea of shooting someone in the leg to make them slow
>down, though. How would you handle this?
Catch-22. I'd handle this by using the Hit Location (and Disabling) rules.
:] But assuming I've had psychic surgery so that I, too, don't want to start
using those rules, I don't see what's the *matter* with hit location as a
special effect for the Drain. Though I think I'd link the Drain to a
standard attack (prolly of less damage), too.
>* He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
>these two doesn't make any sense to me. I told him a better idea would be
>to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate power (with the same OAF as his EB),
>and then he could add No Range Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No
>Range Penalty is realistic enough, though. He said he'd like to be able to
>spend XP later to buy a better scope, just like you'd do in real life. I
>can't remember...is there an advantage which increases the range
>increments? I think that would handle the situation. If not, how would
>you handle this? I think my suggestion is just fine, but he's resistant to
>No Range Penalty for some reason, even though it's a common technique with
>published characters. I think he just needs to relax on his realism
>requirement a little....
Buy Range Skill Levels through the same focus as the EB (and if the EB isn't
focussed, neither should the levels be).
>* He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when his
>gun fires a shot (the EB). I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said
>it's because his character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun
>and stuff. I told him I still don't buy it--the only way he could pay the
>gun's END would be if there was some mystic link (it feeds off his essence)
>or he has cables running from under his flesh to the gun. I told him to
>buy either an END Battery for the gun, or use Charges. Am I right about
>this one?
Ah. Yes, in this case, I'd want him to use charges, an END battery, or a
reasonable special effect.
- --
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 18:40:23 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
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* Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| Nah...your average tazer is pretty well implemented by 'energy blast, stun
| only' (for a real one, probably about 5d6).
Tazers are not stun-only. They can do some pretty significant burn damage,
and repeated jolts can be lethal.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:54:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Return-Path: <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Received: from mr3.exu.ericsson.se ([138.85.11.55])
by gwa.ericsson.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17148
for <champ-l@sysabend.orgt&> Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:52:49 -0600 (CST)
> From owner-champ-l@sysabend.org Wed Feb 24 16:45 CST 1999
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> This leads to some interesting dynamics. Say a character has to move
> something heavy, a Strength task. The T# is set at 6. Say the character
> has a Strength of 2; if either of his 2 dice roll 6 he succeeds, a 33%
> chance of success. Say he also has Unarmed Combat 8 (extreme, unlikely,
> but not impossible). The skill web allows him to use Unarmed Combat, at a
> +4 difficulty. With 8 dice against a T# 10, he has a 67% chance of
> succeeding (ie, at least one die rolls 6 the first time and then 4-6 the
> second -- in Shadowrun, if a die rolls up 6, you re-roll it and add to the
> previous total).
Can you default in both directions ? i.e. Unarmed Combat defaults to Strength,
but Strength defaults to Unarmed Combat ?
We have a joke about everything defaulting to Military Theory.
"I don't have Negotiation, but I'll default off of Military Theory".
I think the complementary skill rolls in Hero take the place of the skill web
in Shadowrun. The only use for a Hero 'skill web' I see would be to clarify
what skills are complementary to each other.
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 18:38:08 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
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* Draco Paladin <paladin@uvic.ca> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| (I think the two skills were throw, and throw knife, which anyone who has
| done any knife throwing knows are not the same thing.)
Aerodynamic is a concentration of Thrown Weapons, at least in 2nd edition.
There are no skills on the 2nd edition skill web without at least one dot
between them. You might be remembering the 1st edition, 1st printing
version, which had a number of problems.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:04:47 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
>Tazers are not stun-only. They can do some pretty significant burn damage,
Please please PLEASE do not start the Tazer debate again. It comes down, not
to realism, but what is desired in the game. What does the requestor,
ultimately, want the Tazer to do? It sounds like he wants something that
knocks you out with no significant injury.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:38:26 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
>I have a player who is building a commando-type character. Basically, he's
>a gun-toter similar to the Punisher or one of the operatives in the Rainbow
>Six computer game. He has a few ideas that either I don't like or am not
>sure how to implement, so I thought I'd hit this list for 2nd opinions:
>
>* He wants a hand-held Tazer. I thought this would be an NND EB, but
>what's the defense? Rubber clothing might work, but is that common enough
>to qualify for the "common set of circumstances" that NND requires? I
>don't think so.... How would you implement a Tazer? Not the ones that
>shoot a cable out, but the ones that just have an electric current at the
>end of the hand-held unit--No Range, in other words.
>
Well, the simplest way is just to treat it as a touch range EB. If you want
to take the NND route, make the defense electrical powers or 6+ points of
Hardened ED.
>* He wants to do a Running Drain and define it as shooting someone in the
>leg. Similarly, he wants an RKA defined as shooting someone in the head.
>I really don't like this idea, especially since we don't use the Hit
>Location table (and I don't want to start). I just don't like using hit
>location as a special effect. His weapon fires energy (as opposed to
>bullets), so I told him he could just define the drain as a different type
>of energy that he can fire by pushing a button on the gun or whatever. He
>really likes the idea of shooting someone in the leg to make them slow
>down, though. How would you handle this?
Why not let him? Special Effects are Special Effects. As long as it
doesn't have any significant game effects, what's the difference?
>
>* He wants to buy Telescopic Sense and link it to EB (his gun). Linking
>these two doesn't make any sense to me. I told him a better idea would be
>to buy Telescopic Sense as a separate power (with the same OAF as his EB),
>and then he could add No Range Penalty to his EB. He doesn't think No
>Range Penalty is realistic enough, though. He said he'd like to be able to
>spend XP later to buy a better scope, just like you'd do in real life. I
>can't remember...is there an advantage which increases the range
>increments? I think that would handle the situation. If not, how would
>you handle this? I think my suggestion is just fine, but he's resistant to
>No Range Penalty for some reason, even though it's a common technique with
>published characters. I think he just needs to relax on his realism
>requirement a little....
That's his choice to some degree. Buy Range Levels on the Gun instead.
>
>* He thinks it is perfectly fine for his character to pay the END when his
>gun fires a shot (the EB). I told him this doesn't make sense, and he said
>it's because his character is receiving the recoil and lugging a heavy gun
>and stuff. I told him I still don't buy it--the only way he could pay the
>gun's END would be if there was some mystic link (it feeds off his essence)
>or he has cables running from under his flesh to the gun. I told him to
>buy either an END Battery for the gun, or use Charges. Am I right about
>this one?
"Right" is a loaded term. I wouldn't have a problem with his rationale,
personally.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:45:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
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> * Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
> | Nah...your average tazer is pretty well implemented by 'energy blast,
> stun | only' (for a real one, probably about 5d6).
>
> Tazers are not stun-only. They can do some pretty significant burn damage,
> and repeated jolts can be lethal.
Ok, call it half-normal body or something.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:03:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Skill Web (was Re: Aberrant)
Curt Hicks writes:
> I think the complementary skill rolls in Hero take the place of the skill
> web in Shadowrun. The only use for a Hero 'skill web' I see would be to
> clarify what skills are complementary to each other.
Well, that and group skill levels, since any group skill level is supposed to
be with a related set of skills.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1999 19:10:57 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
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* Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
| Ok, call it half-normal body or something.
Hero has no such animal. Damage is either 'normal' or 'killing'. So
rather than going with a needlessly complex linked power structure (see
another post), I suggest using a small RKA with a big Stun Multiplier.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:27:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help me with a few concepts
At 06:40 PM 2/24/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>* Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> Wed, 24 Feb 1999
>| Nah...your average tazer is pretty well implemented by 'energy blast, stun
>| only' (for a real one, probably about 5d6).
>
>Tazers are not stun-only. They can do some pretty significant burn damage,
>and repeated jolts can be lethal.
This is why I recommend a straight EB (No Range). It does BODY damage
and *can* be lethal, but its *primary* effect is to stun or render
unconscious.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 99 16:42:37 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aberrant
"James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> wrote:
> A. This one is way too radical, so isn't what you asked about: Eliminate
> skills altogether. Only have levels, 2,3,5,8, and 10 points, and have all
> skills start at some very basic level. Create a skill web like in Shadowrun.
> Two point levels apply to one skill, 3 to a skill and those adjacent, 5 to a
> skill and two adjacent, and so on. Each step outside of that gives a -2 to
> the role (or whatever). That about gives you the same feel as Shadowrun
> while using Hero mechanics, or close to them.
I don't know if that would work very well in Hero, but it would be
a great addition to Fuzion. Fuzion skills are already just bonuses
to attribute rolls for specific tasks, it's a small, but very valuable
step to let you buy broader bonuses. Cool.
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