Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 271
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:59 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #271
champ-l-digest Saturday, April 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 271
In this issue:
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: FW: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: theme villains
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: fire extinguisher
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: FW: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: theme villains
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
Re: Quick question
Re: First Punch! (not about Jackie Chan...)
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: No Conscious Control
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Fw: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: theme villains
Re: theme villains
Re: theme villains
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
Re: theme villains
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:46:22 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
From: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com>
> The feature article at this site is on military use of non-lethal weapons.
>
> www.discover.com
They seemed to have missed one of my favorites; the vortex cannon. During
WWII, the Germans had an experimental weapon that produced a high-speed
rotating torus of air. It was hoped it would become an anti-aircraft weapon.
Then, one day, someone got accidentally hit by it, and didn't die. This led
to the discovery that soft tissue could take the shockwave that more rigid
materials couldn't.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:21:10 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
>
> . . .based on what, native descendant oral tradition?
> *L*
> good one. . .
How so? Actually, based on centuries of recorded oral records.
Stuff has been written down from many different tribes almost from the
first contact of cultures. This is wrong how?
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:25:02 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
> Here we go again: a perfectly valid Hero systems related question has now
> become a socio-political discussion. Please take that discussion off-list,
> or bring it back around to a list-relevant discussion.
Keep your nose out of it--no one appointed you in charge around
here.
And we were discussing the Aztec culture in order to use it in a
game.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:32:00 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
> I would liketo comment that I recently purchased the Time Life series
> "Myth and Mankind" that shows Aztec (and Mayan) books. It does mention
> human scarifice and reprintings of Mayan (and Aztec) codexes show the
> same.
Those that survived, anyway.
> I'm not saying Tim is incorrect, but there is some hard, - period -
> evidence to support execution of captives.
Sure--and enforced labor as well. Those that are pushing hard on
this "no-sacrifice-of-any-kind" are mostly New Historists and Cultural
Theorists. However, there is a difference between references to
occasional execution of captives and the (toned-down) currently accepted
notion of 10,000+ sacrifices a year by the Aztecs.
I talked to my advisor, Geary Hobson, and he isn't up on the
area--what he knows is from the 70s, when research was showing that the
majority of the human sacrifice myth attributed to the Aztecs was quite
overstated--however, some evidence points to some sacrifice/execution.
Of course, the Judeo-Christian tradition holds similar.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:12:28 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
>] [2]Peru, during the reign of Smoke Jaguar, the great Inca king
Can someone translate that name back into Quechua? The only references I
have on the Inca give the kings' names in Quechua, not English.
I could have sworn there was a Mayan king named Smoke Jaguar, but I can't
find that name listed in any indexes -- a lot of other "Smoke - ___" type
names, though. (Bob, there was a king of Naranjo named Smoking-Squirrel,
maybe the Squirrel King could try to "liberate" some artifacts.)
Leah
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:55:29 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
At 12:19 PM 4/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> Very interesting list. Might I add most any pre-contact or early
>> contact Native American culture?
>
> Tunguska <sp?>, Russia (when the big explosion happened).
>
1912 IIRC
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:25:05 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: theme villains
At 12:57 PM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>Anybody got any ideas for 'theme' villains ?
>>Villains whose crimes and m.o. all fit one theme or have a recurring motif.
>
>I've got a couple:
>
>Checkmate, a planning mastermind type who uses chess themes for everything;
Checkmate: a DC Universe team of government sponsored vigilantes. Agents
are Knights, backup provided by Pawns, administrators are Bishops, King,
and Queen.
Agents Identities are absoulutely secret, to the point that it is against
the rules for a Knight to intentionally allow someone to see his skin.
Several of the bad guy's did not catch on that the Knights were more than
one person, as they usually work alone and dress identically.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:55:49 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
At 04:15 PM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
>
>> From: gilberg@ou.edu <gilberg@ou.edu>
>> > This is causing a re-examination of the entire knowledge base of
>> the
>> >Aztec culture.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Tim Gilberg
>>
>>
>> .. . .based on what, native descendant oral tradition?
>> *L*
>> good one. . .
>
>First of all, both the Aztecs and their enemies could write. Your assumption
>that they couldn't is presumptuous.
>
>For that matter, in what way is written testimony better than oral,
Anybody who's ever played telephone knows that: the story changes with each
retelling. A book may be 400 years old, and gives an accurate account of
how it was written down at that time. A story may be 400 years old, but
each generation of teller has altered it and it may bear little resemblance
to the story that was told 400 years ago.
In that way, written testimony is better than oral.
Of course, either side might be lying, but at least we have the original,
400 year old lies from one source and can only guess at the 400 year old
version of the other.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:22:09 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: fire extinguisher
At 08:57 AM 4/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Anybody got any ideas for the proper effect for a fire extinguisher spell ?
>This should presumably work against both 'natural' and 'unnatural' fires.
>
>Curt
>
Suppress? I think that's it. Automated fire extinguishers are called
"Fire Suppression Systems" but more than that it fits. The fire is an
energy-based killing attack. It attacks adjacent flammable materiel. If
you Suppress it, it has less power to attack with, will fail to grow, and
will eventually fail to sustain itself.
IMO and I don't have my BBB here.
Of course, in Star Trek (TNG) they use force fields to put out fires by
squishing them (telekinesis). It requires that tk be airtight (at least to
the edge of it's effect), but.....
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:13:50 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
At 01:07 PM 4/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>"Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>In Xanadu, did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure dome decree. Where Aleph, the
>>sacred river ran, through caverns measureless to man, down to a sunless sea.
>>
>>Oh, how I hate the person from Porlock!
>>
>>Uh, sorry. Bit off topic there, isn't it.
>
>That's not off topic - it's the foundation of a great Champions time-travel
>scenario!
>
>The heroes get sent back in time by an evil warlock. They find themselves
>outside the door of a Nineteenth-Century English home. When they inevitably
>knock on the door, a drugged and angry Samuel Taylor Coleridge answers,
>demanding to know what they're doing there. When they mention the warlock,
>the addled poet says "Porlock? You're from Porlock?" Literary history is
made.
>
>- Bill Svitavsky
>
Re: Hanging your story on great literature.
I remember a poem. Basicly, it is about how nothing is permanent and all
works of man will fade. It talks about an obelisk in the desert built to
honor a great emperor who's empire and earthly works are now gone and even
the obelisk is being worn away and will soon be gone.
The English teachers used it as an example of irony, because it is a famous
poem about a forgotten man who is now famous because he's in that poem.
I read a story where a man is organizing a rebellion in Hell. He recruits
that emperor to his cause by promising him that he'll get that poem written
so the guy will be remembered.
Pick a great work, hang an adventure on it. :)
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Soon you will all learn to respect my power as I conquer all the world!
(Pretty ambitious, eh?)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:35:13 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
At 11:02 AM 4/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>] Bri's Top 5 under-used historical time traveling destinations...
>] [1]Atlantis [pre-flood]
Debatably historical, but fun.
>] [2]Peru, during the reign of Smoke Jaguar, the great Inca king
Truly underused.
>] [3]Transylvania in the 1430's, when Vlad the Impaler was
>] losing to the Turks. A context of war, religious strife,
>] superstition and you could even squeeze in some hounds and
>] vampires if you wanted to.
Fun with a capitol "F". Depending on how far you're willing to drift from
reality, Werewolves traditionally dislike Vampires....
>] [4]Los Alamos, N.Mexico 1942ish... Feynman, Oppenheimer,
>] Soldiers and spies
I recall an episode of The Highwayman where they get sent back to Los
Alamos. Seems the son of one of the scientists is trying to talk his
father out of making (IHO) the biggest mistake of his life. The heros got
impeccable fake IDs, but still got a hard time from the locals (in part
because they didn't know they were going back in time). Sheriff:"The
writin' on these tires looks kinda like Japanese...." Hero:"That's 'cause
they're Japanese tires." Deputy goes for his gun.
>] [5]Asia, all of Asia and eastern Europe circa 1200 A.D. under
>] the iron thumb of the great Khan. Perhaps involving a trip to
>] the pleasure dome in Xanadu
>]
With the one exception listed above, I've never seen any of these used in a
time travel setting.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:03:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Tim Gilberg wrote:
>
> > I would liketo comment that I recently purchased the Time Life series
> > "Myth and Mankind" that shows Aztec (and Mayan) books. It does mention
> > human scarifice and reprintings of Mayan (and Aztec) codexes show the
> > same.
>
> Those that survived, anyway.
>
> > I'm not saying Tim is incorrect, but there is some hard, - period -
> > evidence to support execution of captives.
>
> Sure--and enforced labor as well. Those that are pushing hard on
> this "no-sacrifice-of-any-kind" are mostly New Historists and Cultural
> Theorists. However, there is a difference between references to
> occasional execution of captives and the (toned-down) currently accepted
> notion of 10,000+ sacrifices a year by the Aztecs.
From what little I read before my Aztec book was borrowed takled about
sacrifices on specific days (feast days and the like) so I doubt the
10,000 a year too,
> I talked to my advisor, Geary Hobson, and he isn't up on the
> area--what he knows is from the 70s, when research was showing that the
> majority of the human sacrifice myth attributed to the Aztecs was quite
> overstated--however, some evidence points to some sacrifice/execution.
I can beleive that.
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Kids -- they're not easy, but there has to be some penalty for sex."
Bill Maher
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:06:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, geoff heald wrote:
> Re: Hanging your story on great literature.
> I remember a poem. Basicly, it is about how nothing is permanent and all
> works of man will fade. It talks about an obelisk in the desert built to
> honor a great emperor who's empire and earthly works are now gone and even
> the obelisk is being worn away and will soon be gone.
"Ozymandias", by Shelly?
Interesting note about Ozymandias from Watchmen. He models himself after
Alexander the Great and hopes to build an long lasting peace. Yet,
Alexander's emprire didn't survive him, and Ozymandias's peace is fraigle
and may not survive him either. Then there is the fact that he names
himself after a poem that is written about a king who's name is forgotton
by history...
> The English teachers used it as an example of irony, because it is a famous
> poem about a forgotten man who is now famous because he's in that poem.
Yup.
> I read a story where a man is organizing a rebellion in Hell. He recruits
> that emperor to his cause by promising him that he'll get that poem written
> so the guy will be remembered.
Heh... I like that.
> Pick a great work, hang an adventure on it. :)
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Kids -- they're not easy, but there has to be some penalty for sex."
Bill Maher
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:13:06 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
- -----Original Message-----
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
>At 01:07 PM 4/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Re: Hanging your story on great literature.
>I remember a poem. Basicly, it is about how nothing is permanent and all
>works of man will fade. It talks about an obelisk in the desert built to
>honor a great emperor who's empire and earthly works are now gone and even
>the obelisk is being worn away and will soon be gone.
>The English teachers used it as an example of irony, because it is a famous
>poem about a forgotten man who is now famous because he's in that poem.
>I read a story where a man is organizing a rebellion in Hell. He recruits
>that emperor to his cause by promising him that he'll get that poem written
>so the guy will be remembered.
>
>Pick a great work, hang an adventure on it. :)
Ozymandias.
The relevent quote that I remember is: "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and
despair." Or somethign like that.
And it is very relevent to Supers discussions because the name Ozymandias
was the "hero" name of Adrian Viedt, from "The Watchmen" graphic novel
series. What's interesting is that Adrian names himself after a king whose
works didn't last, and the peace that he achieves a the cost of murdering a
million New Yorkers may be quite fragile itself, which is implied, but not
stated outright at the series end.
WAtchmen itself is something I have to consider great literature. ^_^
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"You just listen to the words of the old Porkchop Express
and take his advice on a dark and stormy night when the
lightning is crashing, the thunder rolling and the rain
falling in sheets as thick as lead. Just remember what
Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison
arrows fall from the sky and the pillars of heaven shake.
Yeah, Jack Burton looks that big old storm right in the
eye and he says: 'Gimme your best shot pal, I can take it!'."
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:15:50 -0700
From: Shelley Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: theme villains
At 11:25 PM 4/9/99 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>At 12:57 PM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>Anybody got any ideas for 'theme' villains ?
>>>Villains whose crimes and m.o. all fit one theme or have a recurring motif.
>>
>>I've got a couple:
>>
>>Checkmate, a planning mastermind type who uses chess themes for everything;
>
>Checkmate: a DC Universe team of government sponsored vigilantes. Agents
>are Knights, backup provided by Pawns, administrators are Bishops, King,
>and Queen.
>
>Agents Identities are absoulutely secret, to the point that it is against
>the rules for a Knight to intentionally allow someone to see his skin.
>Several of the bad guy's did not catch on that the Knights were more than
>one person, as they usually work alone and dress identically.
Heck, for that matter, there's Chessmen, a game that we've been playing off
and on for years and years (based on Checkmate) -- my husband has the pages
at http://www.mactyre.net/chessmen.html. Has to be one of my favorite
Super Agent games, ever!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net/shelley/
Look! An updated homepage!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:09:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
At 05:46 PM 4/9/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>
>From: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com>
>
>> The feature article at this site is on military use of non-lethal weapons.
>>
>> www.discover.com
>
>They seemed to have missed one of my favorites; the vortex cannon. During
>WWII, the Germans had an experimental weapon that produced a high-speed
>rotating torus of air. It was hoped it would become an anti-aircraft weapon.
>Then, one day, someone got accidentally hit by it, and didn't die. This led
>to the discovery that soft tissue could take the shockwave that more rigid
>materials couldn't.
Hmmm... Would this be AVLD (non-resistant PD) or NND (having
non-resistant PD)?
(Obviously it does BODY in either case....)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 17:34:46
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Quick question
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:48:21 -0400, Johnson, Adam wrote:
>
>I don't have my book with me, this is on VPP's for an equipment pool...
>
>Am I right in thinking that the points in the VPP are the limit on the
>Active Points for each item, and the amount of equipment in Real Points that
>you can carry?
Yep.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 11:47:53
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: First Punch! (not about Jackie Chan...)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:48:38 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin
wrote:
>At 11:13 PM 3/26/1999, qts wrote:
>>On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:06:41 -0500 (EST), SURGAT wrote:
>>
>>> I'm developing a power with the SFX being a "really sneaky and
>>>unexpected first punch."
>>
>>Does anyone still have a copy of 1st Ed Fantasy Hero? This looks like a
>>classic use for the Immediate Advantage.
>
>"Immediate
>This Advantage allows a spell that normally takes a full phase to cast to
>take only a zero phase action to cast. However, this Advantage doesn't
>apply to Effects that require an Attack Roll or an Ego Attack Roll. Attack
>actions of any kind always take at least a half phase action. Th Immediate
>Advantage is a +x1/2 cost mutiplier."
Oh well, then just a DEX Aid, Only for Initiative (-2) looks to be the
best bet.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 11:57:40
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:40:15 -0500, David A. Fair wrote:
[Temporal trips]
>Any
>ideas on where to send them (I don't wann do Rome, Greece or Egypt, as
>they are a little too common).
I've a soft spot for the Kalevala.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 17:31:09
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: No Conscious Control
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:53:46 -0500, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
>
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >Well, I guess I missed that discussion but here's a question I've had for a
>> >while:
>> >When I played AD&D the GM ran clerics that, since their spells came from
>> >their god, sometimes they didn't get exactly the spells they prayed for.
>> >Like, if you said "today I'm gonna take 3 Cure Light Wounds" he might say
>> >"2 Cure Light and one Turn Dead." Usually, you'd run into some undead a
>> >day or two after this.
>
>[Snip]
>
>> I think I'd just make it a -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation for "Divine
>> Overruling."
>
>Actually, if the overruling is generally used to benefit the priest using
>information the deity has and the priest doesn't (like the example above), maybe
>it should be a -0, or even an Avantadge.
Wasn't this written up in an old AC?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:51:49 -0400
From: "Geoff Depew" <mephron@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
- ----- Original Message -----
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
> On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:40:15 -0500, David A. Fair wrote:
>
> [Temporal trips]
>
> >Any
> >ideas on where to send them (I don't wann do Rome, Greece or Egypt, as
> >they are a little too common).
>
> I've a soft spot for the Kalevala.
> qts
Just as long as you don't bring up the Sampo.
<This is why we don't make the Sampo, except on holidays.>
I knew installing my own daemon was going to be problematic...
(It's a Mystery Science Theatre 3000 reference to a movie based on the
Kalevala, called 'The Day The Earth Froze'. For those that don't recognize
it.)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:51:02 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Fw: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
<snip>
> >For that matter, in what way is written testimony better than oral, even
if
> >the Spanish records were the only ones? Conquerors routinely demonize the
> >conquered, so the testimony of the Spanish questionable. There is, so
far
> >as I know, no known written record of anyone actually witnessing these
> >executions, so the Spanish couldn't have been going on more than rumors
> >themselves.
>
> Writing stays static. oral histories change a great deal.
Actually, no, it doesn't. We have direct evidence that they are long-term
stable.
Cultures without writing tended to have fairly stable oral histories. This
can be shown by the fact that written records made of oral traditions taken
many years apart show relatively little change. In societies where oral
traditions were the only way of keeping records, memories are generally
better, and those whose duty it was to maintain those traditions had their
memories trained and the exact wording of those traditions forced into them
until they could remember them word for word.
> >And oral traditions are fairly reliable ways to track the
> >essence of what happened over a considerable period of time.
>
> essence. . . . right, i'll just go look that term up in my psychology
> textbooks *g*
Fine. Then "Oral traditions are fairly reliable ways to track the essential
facts of what happened over a considerable period of time".
<snip>
>
> Yes, and that only supports my position. The spaniards
> did their lying on the spot, but it doesn't mean the oral traditions on
> the other side of the imperialism cliche didn't do it more gradually,
> over time.
Why would they have spent years making the Aztechs look good, when the
Aztechs were their traditional enemies? People don't go around changing
history to make old enemies look better than new enemies, they change
history to make _all_ enemies look bad.
An enemy of the Aztechs might have done this, though it is unlikely. Ask an
anthropologist. _All_ of the enemies of the Aztechs? Unlikely.
>The situation is, in general, innacurate. Simply defining one
> set of data as more valid becasue it supports somebody's
> revisionist tendencies is not a good way to proceed.
Nor is defining one set of data as more valid because it supports the side
of the record that someone was raised to believe is true.
Traditionaly, only one side of a multi-sided view was presented. That side
was the sole source of information available until today, for most people.
This does not make it more valid.
> As it was my point
> was simple- oral history does not a substantive revision-quest make.
Why not? We have the Spaniards taking one oral tradition, for which we have
no support except their say so. Why is that unsubstantiated oral tradition
superior to _several_ others, just because the Spanish said so? If the
police write a report about what they say happened, and witnesses all report
something different, do we automatically trust the police report because it
was written shortly after events, or do we at least consider that the others
are telling the truth?
Keep in mind that there aren't two sides to this story. You classified it as
"anti-imperialists vs the Spaniards". That isn't what it is, however. It is
several different stories, from several different groups. Even if you
consider _all_ of the groups biased against the Spanish except for the
Spanish themselves, it still becomes significant that _none_ of them agree
with the stories that the Spaniards supposedly took from their ancestors
long ago.
> Perhaps there are more solid issues involved, but if it's just
> word of mouth, than 'essence' is all that can be achieved.
The Spanish account of events was the recording of a supposed oral tradition
about someone they wanted to demonize, so they had an excuse for their
behavior. The oral traditions taken down today are oral traditions about
someone who was a traditional enemy, but today is of little consequence to
these people. If some traditions said the Spanish view was correct, then we
would have corroborating evidence, but we don't.
The truth is, written history is less than accurate. Comparisons of
histories taken at times relatively close to events often show very
different stories. Taking one side over all others is bad policy, especially
a side with a history of telling certain types of similar lies, such as "the
savages were performing human sacrifices".
You want to say that the Aztecs are reported by the Spanish to have
committed human sacrifice? Fine. You want to believe that? Fine as well. But
claiming that that is what _did_ happen is ridiculous, hundreds of years
after events. Even if only oral traditions existed against the Spanish
claims, and oral traditions were as unstable as you seem to believe, there
still exists valid reasons for making it clear in history books that _we do
not know_.
What does this have to do with HERO? Well, your heroes could have a great
deal riding on finding out what happened somewhere a long time ago, with
some accuracy. What happens if the heroes take sides in a conflict based
upon stories that were told 300 years later? Are they on the right side?
What about assuming that group X is murderous, likes human sacrifice, or
eats people, because of what their enemies wrote about them? Could cause
more than a little trouble.
However, any future posts by me on this subject will be taken off the list.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:59:30 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
<snip>
>
> I would liketo comment that I recently purchased the Time Life series
> "Myth and Mankind" that shows Aztec (and Mayan) books. It does mention
> human scarifice and reprintings of Mayan (and Aztec) codexes show the
> same.
>
> I'm not saying Tim is incorrect, but there is some hard, - period -
> evidence to support execution of captives.
Excellent. Good, hard evidence, from multiple sources, supporting each
other. Including the original people themselves, who might have whitewashed
things to claim they _didn't_ commit sacrifices, but are unlikely to have
written that they did when they didn't.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:38:09 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
> Havening recently read some material on Aztec mythos, I disagree. Aztec
> gods can be very confusing and it trying to define tham in Hero terms
> would take some work. GURPS Aztec might help (never seen it), but in
> genreal the dieties of the Aztecs are not as straight forward as those of
> hte Greeks or Norse.
Are the greeks or norse even that straightforward? If they are,
they are about the only ones. Even the Judeo-Christian Diety(ies) are
anything but straightforward.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:44:33 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: theme villains
> Actually, it turns out that SK is more flexible than even I'd imagined.
> I've gotten reports of a couple of GMs playing SK with an almost completely
> serious tone. One, based and set in NYC, gives him just a little bit of a
> comedic edge, but really starts to edge into the area of superheroic
> horror. (It's hard to laugn when over sixty million squirrels are forming
> a carpet of fur in Central Park, and they're all eyeing you hungrily.)
Well, I've never used SK--never seen him actually. I have,
however, used an army of squirrels. I spent a year at Northwestern
University--it became a good location for various things for my players to
do in later years. (Actually, I've always liked college campuses for lots
of different things.)
Anyway, the squirrels at NU are exceedingly numerous and
exceedingly brave. Many students were convinced that they were plotting
to take over the campus/city/world/universe/what-have-you. Well, when my
players were at NU facing down an enemy, he summoned the squirrels to
help. Lots of 'em. He got away no problem in the confusion.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:46:24 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: theme villains
> All-brick teams seem rather diffuse in terms of common theme,
> in fact they and other 'same power' groups
> seem to end up going in all different directions, or they get boring.
I wasn't saying that the team was so much a motif, but rather the
two characters I mentioned--Grand Slam in particular.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:48:52 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: theme villains
> >* A Native American who attacks museums and such to 'liberate' tribal
> >artifacts (no name yet).
A hero, I take it?
> Ghost Dancer, maybe?
Hmmmm. I'd use this one for something closer to the Ghost Dance
in theme. I'm blanking for any other name at present, however.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:56:37 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
> (It's a Mystery Science Theatre 3000 reference to a movie based on the
> Kalevala, called 'The Day The Earth Froze'. For those that don't recognize
> it.)
"What is Sampo, anyways?"
"I think Sampo is a strapless evening gown."
"You think everything is a strapless evening gown."
"I just think they're neat."
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:38:37 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
> At 04:15 PM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
<snip>
> >For that matter, in what way is written testimony better than oral,
>
> Anybody who's ever played telephone knows that: the story changes with
each
> retelling. A book may be 400 years old, and gives an accurate account of
> how it was written down at that time. A story may be 400 years old, but
> each generation of teller has altered it and it may bear little
resemblance
> to the story that was told 400 years ago.
>
> In that way, written testimony is better than oral.
There is a very great difference between a game of telephone and the oral
traditions of most pre-literate societies. In pre-literate societies, people
have better memories. The keeper of the oral tradition is trained to
memorize. He spends years memorizing the traditions word for word. And if he
ever gets it wrong, the entire tribe is there to correct him, even if the
former keeper of the oral tradition isn't there to slap his head.
Literate people have copied oral traditions of pre-literate societies, then
come back and found them essentially unchanged a hundred years later. Oral
tradition can be _very_ stable.
> Of course, either side might be lying, but at least we have the original,
> 400 year old lies from one source and can only guess at the 400 year old
> version of the other.
When two groups disagree, then we have no way of knowing who is telling the
truth. When one group says X, and everyone else says Y, then Y is credible,
even if X has better evidence.
There are multiple groups that dispute the Spanish version of events.
Therefore, there is some credibility in that disputation, even if it is
passed on through a less reliable method of record keeping.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:01:09 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
> > I'm not saying Tim is incorrect, but there is some hard, - period -
> > evidence to support execution of captives.
>
> Excellent. Good, hard evidence, from multiple sources, supporting each
> other. Including the original people themselves, who might have whitewashed
> things to claim they _didn't_ commit sacrifices, but are unlikely to have
> written that they did when they didn't.
Though the difference we've finally gotten to is ritual infrequent
ceremonies versus daily slaughters. Also, there is some evidence that
many tribes--and not just North and South American tribes--practiced
ritual cannibalization. Usually a symbolic bite from a vanquished enemy.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:42:38 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians of Myth and Legend
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
<snip>
> Re: Hanging your story on great literature.
> I remember a poem. Basicly, it is about how nothing is permanent and all
> works of man will fade. It talks about an obelisk in the desert built to
> honor a great emperor who's empire and earthly works are now gone and even
> the obelisk is being worn away and will soon be gone.
Ozymandias. "I am Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, all ye
mighty, and despair."
> The English teachers used it as an example of irony, because it is a
famous
> poem about a forgotten man who is now famous because he's in that poem.
> I read a story where a man is organizing a rebellion in Hell. He recruits
> that emperor to his cause by promising him that he'll get that poem
written
> so the guy will be remembered.
Hmm. I guess I'll have to read the "Heroes in Hell" stories after all.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:54:00 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: theme villains
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
<snip>
> Agents Identities are absoulutely secret, to the point that it is against
> the rules for a Knight to intentionally allow someone to see his skin.
> Several of the bad guy's did not catch on that the Knights were more than
> one person, as they usually work alone and dress identically.
I had a game where a particular NPC hero was associated with a particular
dojo, though both owners had been seen with the hero, and even sparred with
him (both were good enough that the non-superhero could still put on a
convincing show when wearing the costume). One was white, the other black.
One of the PCs was given an opportunity to see the bare arm of the
superhero, and turned his head and refused to look. When I asked him, he
pointed out that the team was going up against Psi soon, and he didn't want
anyone reading clues from his mind about the identities of other heroes who
weren't even associated with the group.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:57:43 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
> Hmmm... Would this be AVLD (non-resistant PD) or NND (having
> non-resistant PD)?
> (Obviously it does BODY in either case....)
Neither one. It does most BODY that it does, when it does BODY, to hard
targets. So, it would be an EB, Reduced Penetration, with RP itself limited
by "Only vs soft targets" (which I would probably give no points for, since
for most people, this is an Advantage, not a Limitation.)
Filksinger
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #271
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:12 AM