Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 277

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 4:10 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #277


champ-l-digest Tuesday, April 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 277



In this issue:

Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
CHAR: Kun Kan
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
Re: Power Construct: Seeing in the Dark (fwd)
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
Re: Power Construct: Seeing in the Dark (fwd)
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
CHAR: Catoblepas
CHAR: Creatures
Re: CHAR: Creatures
Re: CHAR: Catoblepas
Re: CHAR: Creatures
RE: CHAR: Creatures
Re: CHAR: Catoblepas
Re: CHAR: Creatures
RE: CHAR: Creatures
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
Re: CHAR: Creatures
Re: CHAR: Creatures
Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
RE: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:42:12 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

In a message dated 4/13/99 6:42:05 AM, backflash@mindspring.com writes:

> And Bruce, if you are reading this. You are overburdened. The amount
>of new
>templates You have to program does not allow you the time to dedicate to
>finding the bugs in the new updates. I found two immediately after the
>install
>of the new update.. One in the Hero template that causes a conflict with
>older
>level 2 files, and there is no conversion script to update them. And the
>HeroFuzion has an error that causes it to abort because COM is not recogniz=
ed
>in conversion. So I ripped out CW completely and reinstalled it completely
>to
>the state I had it before the update.

If you find bugs, please take a moment to report them! Include the version=20
numbers of the software and describe the exact process that caused the=20
problem. If we get bug reports, we will get them fixed as soon as possible.=20
We already plan to have several more updates released this year as we put ou=
t=20
new game templates.

As for support, by the end of the month or so we should have our new=20
discussion boards up on our web site, along with our Creation Workshop=20
mailing list. There are already a number of home-grown templates for Creatio=
n=20
Workshop available, and there will be plenty of advice handy from experience=
d=20
users.

=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:42:58 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

I am on the CW list. Unfortunately, it is also an extremely buggy mailing list.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:51:00 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

As I said in a previous post. I am on the CW list, but the messages have not
been coming through to me at all for quite some time. There have been errors with
that list from the outset and I get my CW information now from another user on
Dalnet's #herochat instead.

And as for reporting errors. Ask Bruce. I have reported errors on almost every
single update. Except this one.

HeroGames@aol.com wrote:

> If you find bugs, please take a moment to report them! Include the version
> numbers of the software and describe the exact process that caused the
> problem. If we get bug reports, we will get them fixed as soon as possible.
> We already plan to have several more updates released this year as we put out
> new game templates.
>
> As for support, by the end of the month or so we should have our new
> discussion boards up on our web site, along with our Creation Workshop
> mailing list. There are already a number of home-grown templates for Creation
> Workshop available, and there will be plenty of advice handy from experienced
> users.
>
> Steve Peterson, Hero Games

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:17:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Kun Kan

KUN KAN
(Earth Demon)

Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
28* STR 8 15- 1200kg; 5 1/2d6
11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
23 CON 26 14-
15 BODY 10 12-
8 INT -2 11- PER Roll 11-
15 EGO 10 12- ECV: 5
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
2 COM -4 9-
12* PD 6 Total: 12 PD / 6 PDr
8* ED 1 Total: 8 ED / 8 EDr
3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12
9 REC 0
46 END 0 *Modifications for Density Increase
included
36 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 77

Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 0"

Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
8 Combat Skill Levels: +4 OCV with Earth Ball
20 Combat Skill Levels: +4 with HTH

Earth Demon Powers:
13 Body of Earth: Density Increase: 2 Levels, 0 END (+1/2),
Persistent (+1/2), Always On (-1/2):
+10 STR, +2 PD/ED, -2" KB, 400kg

15 Earth Powers Elemental Control: 15 Point Pool
12 1 - Earth Ball: EB 8d6 (Physical), Only in areas of "natural"
earth (-1)
12 2 - Engulf with Earth: Entangle: 3d6, 3 DEF, Stops Sight Group,
Target must be in contact with "natural" earth (-1)
12 3 - Meld with Earth: Desolidification, Only through natural earth,
rock, etc (-1)
7 4 - Meld with Earth: Regeneration, 3 Body/Turn, Only if in contact
with "natural" earth (-1)
20 5 - Negative Feed: Aid: 3d6, Affects STR, DEX, CON, BODY, PD, ED,
END, STUN (+2), Only in areas where the earth is "damaged" (toxic waste
dumps, battlefields, slums) (-1/2)

23 Engulf with Earth: EB: 2d6 NND [DEF: Self-contained
breathing] (+1), Continuous (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Linked to Entangle (-1/2), 1 Phase Delay (-1/4)
7 Body of Earth: Damage Resistance: 6PD/8ED
30 Body of Earth: Full Life Support\
- -2 Body of Earth: Swimminig: -2" (0" Total)

Creature Skills:
3 Climbing 11-
3 Concealment 11-
3 Demolitions 11- (ripping things apart)
186 Total Powers & Skills Cost
263 Total Character Cost

75+ Disadvantages
25 Distinctive Features: Humanoid earth demon
15 Physical Limitation: Heavy and clumsy
Psychological Limitation:
20 Desire to destroy the earth (VC, S)
15 Hatred of "pure" people and places (priests and shrines for
example) (C, S)
5 Reputation: Evil Earth Demon, destroyer of the earth 8-
10 Vulnerability: 2x Body from water based attacks
73 Experience
263 Total Disadvantage Points

Appearance:
A Kun Kan is a massive humanoid figure comprised of earth and mud. It is
shot through with dark roots and tends to drip oily black ooze when it
walks. They are human sized, but mass far more than any man, with thick,
coarse features and extremities.

Ecology:
It is believed that the Kun Kan arise spontaneously from areas where the
feng shui is bad, and large amounts of negative chi have been allowed to
pool. This seems to be trues, as Kun Kan feed off of corrupted earth and
ground, such as battlefields, slums and waste dumps. They will seek these
places out, coming together to drain an area of it negative energy before
moving on to a fresh location. If a specific spot of earth is constantly
supplied with new corruption (such as a dumping ground of chemical wastes
and the like), the Kun Kan may remain for a much longer time period,
growing in size and strength.

Motivations:
Kun Kan mainly desire new areas in which to feed. Thus they tend to
congregate in area where the earth has been violated in some way. If they
can't find such an area, they make one, tearing up buildings, trees,
parkland and virutally anything else they can get their hands on. The Kun
Kan despise purified areas as well, and are quite happy to tear down
shrines, churches are other sanctified places. If possible, they will
also attack priests and other such people directly, attempting to entomb
them beneath the earth.

Combat Techniques:
If possible, a Kun Kan will scoop up masses of dirt and form great balls
of mud and earth to hurl at opponents. If these earth balls prove
ineffective, or if their targets close to within hand-to-hand range, the
Kun Kan will try to batter down their victims with blows of their massive
fists. troublesome (or unconscious) foes will be thrust down into the
earth, rendered immobile and left to suffocate. Naturallt, a Kun Kan
prefers to fight in an area when it can utilize its "Negative Feed"
ability, absorbing large amounts of negative chi in order to boost its
combat abilities.

Other Names: Earth Elemental, Gnome, Mud Man

Rumors:
It is said that powerful magicians can call forth Kun Kan and force them
to do their bidding. It is also said that other areas of negative chi
spawn their own monstrous creatures.

Designer's Notes:
The Kun Kan first appeared in the Feng Shui suppliment "Back for Seconds".
I found the description if the creature to be very interesting and
eventually adapted for my Silent Mobius game.


- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:35:39 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

At 10:16 AM 4/13/99 -0400, Beren wrote:
>> The program is superior to Heromaker in capabilities and potential of
>what
>> is can be used to do. it had POTENTIAL multiple game system support. But
>does
>> not lend itself to allowing individuals to author them outside of the
>company,
>> because of the lack of intimate knowledge the original programmer has.

It's more than that. I don't have the time or interest to figure it out. When
I buy software, I want it to work simply and in a straightforward manner.
This is clearly a piece of software written by and for programmers and
those who enjoy tinkering.

Trying to figure out all those errors and how to get it to do something
is riduculous. And the help files are very badly written. Like most
such things, they are written for someone who already knows what
they're doing. I will not buy any more CW products and continue
to do all my work with Heromaker while CW collects electronic dust
on my hard drive.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:16:33 -0500
From: Lance <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Seeing in the Dark (fwd)

Exactly why doesnt a bonus to perception only in the dark simulate your effect
perfectly?

Jason Sullivan wrote:

> I need a power that will allow a character to see as well at night
> as during the day.
> This is not infravision, where one may see things in heat
> patterns.
> Rather, it is a "mystical" sight, in which there is no darkness.
> It does not require any from of ambient radiation. It functions similar
> to normal sight, the only drawback (perhaps) being the sight "in the
> dark" is ever so slighty dimmed towards monochrome color shifts.
>
> It is not Spatial Awareness, because it can sense fine details.
> N-Ray vision and Detect/Sense also can't be used to simulate this power,
> nor can a bonus to PER only for the purposes of seeing in the dark.
> It is a directional, targeting, ranged, discriminatory sense,
> based on the Sight sense group.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:16:02 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

In a message dated 4/13/99 9:35:23 AM, nolan@erols.com writes:

>Trying to figure out all those errors and how to get it to do something
>is riduculous. And the help files are very badly written. Like most
>such things, they are written for someone who already knows what
>they're doing. I will not buy any more CW products and continue
>to do all my work with Heromaker while CW collects electronic dust
>on my hard drive.

What errors do you refer to? And specifically what do you feel the problems=20
are with the help files? I find them to be quite thorough and very clear, in=20
general. We are of course interested in improving the documentation and help=20
files, but in order to do that we need more precise feedback.

The manual for Creation Workshop is not and never was intended to be a=20
complete guide to showing you how to create templates from scratch. This=20
would require a book, not a manual (the help files constitue several hundred=20
pages when printed out, I might add). We're certainly interested in having=20
someone write such a book; if anyone would like to volunteer for that task,=20
please contact Bruce Harlick at brucehh@aol.com. But the feedback we've=20
received is that only a few percent of our users are interested in knowing=20
how to create templates from scratch; most are happy to use the templates we=20
provide, and be able to modify those.

=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Seeing in the Dark (fwd)

Jason Sullivan wrote:

> I need a power that will allow a character to see as well at night
> as during the day.
> Rather, it is a "mystical" sight, in which there is no darkness.
> It does not require any from of ambient radiation. It functions similar
> to normal sight, the only drawback (perhaps) being the sight "in the
> dark" is ever so slighty dimmed towards monochrome color shifts.
>
> It is not Spatial Awareness, because it can sense fine details.
Discriminatory spacial awareness (25 pts, +5 for discriminatory). Then give it
'only to allow seeing in darkness', which is probably -1 (maybe more), as it
implies you can be flashed by a flash to normal sight, can't see invisible
objects, can have your vision be obscured by smoke and the like, ...

I've also considered 'N-ray vision, only to see in darkness'.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:37:12 -0700
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

At 01:16 PM 4/13/99 -0400, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 4/13/99 9:35:23 AM, nolan@erols.com writes:
>
>
>What errors do you refer to? And specifically what do you feel the problems
>are with the help files? I find them to be quite thorough and very clear, in
>general. We are of course interested in improving the documentation and help
>files, but in order to do that we need more precise feedback.
>

I can definitely add something here:

In my experience, there are a number of inherent flaws in the current
version of Creation Workshop. I've created a template for Legend of the
Five Rings, and in doing so ran into a whole slew of problems, some of
which are supposed to be rectified in the next revision, others of which
there are no plans to address in the near future.

First and foremost, there a numerous undocumented maximums, especially in
the area of arrays and lengths of strings. No array in a template can have
more than 100 elements. You try to add your 101st element, and you get the
wonderfully informative error message of "No Error".

The second biggest problem is accessing data. If you have an element in a
list, you can access the value of an option of that element when you're
printing, but you _cannot_ access that same value from within the template
itself. The commands to address these elements do not work in the template
portion of CW.

Third, there is no good way to store variables that you do not want someone
to be able to change or delete. You can place variables in the Defines
portion of the template and change the values. The problem is, Creation
Workshop does not maintain the current value after the character is saved.
If I have a variable and I modify the value of that variable when a certain
item is picked and added to a list (through the additions portion of an
item) That value will change for that session only. If I save the character
sheet, close it, then reopen it, the variable is back to its original value
although the item is still in the list.

The UNDO command is present in the portion of the program that allows the
creation of Print Templates, but it doesn't produce any effect. Also, there
are buttons to distribute selected items, using these buttons gives you an
error that the features aren't implemented yet.

Creation Workshop is a very powerful tool, but it seriously feels like a
piece of beta software, at least in the area of Template creation. For
character creation, I think its pretty solid. I know the manual was not
made to guide you in the creation of templates, but some of these
"limitations" should have at least been written down somewhere.

- -Nic

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:14:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Catoblepas

CATOBLEPAS
(Europe)

Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
35* STR 5 16- 100kg; 2d6
11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
18 CON 16 13-
22* BODY 18 13-
5 INT -5 10- PER Roll 12-
5 EGO -10 10- ECV: 3
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 2d6
10 COM 0 11-
5* PD 1 Total: PD / PDr
5* ED 0 Total: ED / EDr
3 SPD 9 Phases: 6, 12
8 REC 2
40 END 2 * Modifiers for Density Increase and
Growth
40* STUN 1 included
Total Characteristics Cost: 47

Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"

Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
14 Combat Skill Levels: +7 with Deadly Gaze

Catoblepas Powers:
20 Great Size: Growth: 3 Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2)
7 Great Size: Density Increase: 1 Level, 0 END (+1/2),
Persistent (+1/2), Always On (-1/2)
Total: +20 STR, +3 Body, +1 PD / ED, +3 Stun, -2 DCV, +2 to others
PER, +1" reach, -1" KB
133 Deadly Gaze: Drain: 10d6 vs BODY, Invisible to Sight (+1/2),
0 END (+1/2), Requires eye contact (-1/2)
6 Thick Hide: Armor: +2 DEF
4 Sharp Sense of Hearing: Enhanced Perception: +2
4 Sharp Sense of Smell: Enhanced Perception: +2
188 Total Powers & Skills Cost
235 Total Character Cost

75+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Large buffalo witha long neck and the head
of a hog
Physical Limitation:
10 Cannot leap
15 No fine manipulation
10 Poor eyesight, Sight PER of only 7-
10 Psychological Limitation: Fairly timid (C, M)
100 Experience
235 Total Disadvantage Points

Appearance:
The catoblepas is a large creature with the body of a great black buffalo.
It has a long thin neck and the head of a hog. Its tail is fairly short
and ends in a stiff brush.

Ecology:
Catoblepas are found in marshes and swamps, where they forage for water
plants and roots. The creatures tend to be solitary and active in the
morning and evenings.

Motivations:
Normal animal motivations. The catoblepas doesn't seek out confrontations
and certainly doesn't desire anything other than to be left to itself.

Combat Techniques:
If attacked, the catoblepas has a very potent weapon with which to defend
itself. It is capable of striking dead anything which meets its gaze. If
surprised, the catoblepas will raise its head and try and locate the
closest target. Once it has done so, it will then look at the target,
trying to get the victim to meet the catoblepas's gaze. Once the first
victim has fallen, the catoblepas will then strike down another and then
another, until all its attackers have died or fled. If severely pressed
or wounded, the catoblepas will retreat into the swamp, trying to place
deep bodies of water between itself and any foes.

Other Names: None

Rumors:
Some say the catoblepas is covered with a thick coat of scales.

Designer's Notes:
I first encounted the catoblepas in the pages of the old AD&D Monster
Manuel. Later, I saw it listed in the GURPS Fantasy Besitary and then
found a description of the creature in "The Book of Imaginary Beings" by
Jorge Luis Borges. It is a fairly straight-forward creature, if a touch
obscure. The catoblepas was said to live in Ethipoia the home of many
fantastic beasts.



- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:19:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Creatures

Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful as say,
a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might like
them.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:23:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Creatures

> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>
> Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful as say,
> a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might like
> them.
>
> --

I like 'em. Are you storing these on your web site as well ?

Curt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Catoblepas

Michael Surbrook writes:
> 133 Deadly Gaze: Drain: 10d6 vs BODY, Invisible to Sight (+1/2),
> 0 END (+1/2), Requires eye contact (-1/2)
You might want to add 'usable at range' on this one. Might also want to
specify what 'eye contact' means here.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:32:29 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Creatures

I have no problem with them. . . .one thing, the catoblepas
you wrote was said to live in Ethipoia, would that be ethiopia as in the
area of africa, Ethiopia the old name for most or all of africa, or
Ethipoia, someplace in europe i'm not aware of? Just wondering.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 4:19 AM
Subject: CHAR: Creatures


>Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful as say,
>a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might like
>them.
>
>--
>Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
>
>If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
>infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
>considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:25:41 -0500
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
Subject: RE: CHAR: Creatures

At 1:20 PM Surbrook wrote:

>Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful
as say, a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might
like them.

For what it's worth, I like 'em! Keep it up!

Rob Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Catoblepas

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Michael Surbrook writes:
> > 133 Deadly Gaze: Drain: 10d6 vs BODY, Invisible to Sight (+1/2),
> > 0 END (+1/2), Requires eye contact (-1/2)

> You might want to add 'usable at range' on this one. Might also want to
> specify what 'eye contact' means here.

Ack! I forgot that!

I do mention 'eye contact' down under combat. I'll try and elaborate a
little more.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:26:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Creatures

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:

> > Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful as say,
> > a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might like
> > them.
>
> I like 'em. Are you storing these on your web site as well ?

Yes I am.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:29:06 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: CHAR: Creatures

Hey,

Useful is an entirely subjective term. I could put a Terrasque up against
the guys in my FH game, long before they'd ever have to see one of those
galaxy eating fiends from DBZ.

Of course, if you're going to post them on your web site, you really only
need to post them for feedback. When I sit down to put some creatures into
an adventure, I'll be checking the web site rather than looking through old
emails. I haven't been commenting on anything lately because it's been fine.
The last few creatures [post Beholder] have been pretty straight forward in
design so didn't really warrant a lot of discussion.

Anyway, I'd say either keep posting them or post them on your web site and
send the list an invitation to come and check them out.

BRI

] -----Original Message-----
] From: Michael Surbrook [mailto:susano@dedaana.otd.com]
] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 2:20 PM
] To: Champions Mailing List
] Subject: CHAR: Creatures
]
]
] Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as
] useful as say,
] a super hero or anime character, but i figured some of you might like
] them.
]
] --
] Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com -
] http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
]
] If a woman has to
] choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
] infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
] considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry
]
]

------------------------------


Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:32:07 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons

From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>



> At 03:40 PM 4/12/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> >From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> >
> >> At 12:25 PM 4/12/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
> >> >Let's see if I understand this. AVLD, defense is any PD that is
> >> >non-resistant. Resistant PD is not a defense.
> >>
> >> That's the idea, yes.
> >
> >Unfortunately, that gives you a weapon that can readily destroy tanks, or
> >even Questonite, but doesn't hurt human beings, unless they buy Resistant
> >PD, in which case they are toast. Not quite what I had in mind.
>
> No no no.... it's not NND where the defense is "Having No Resistant
PD";
> it's an AVLD where the defense is "non-resistant PD".

Um, as best I can tell, my statement still applies. See below.

> (And I messed up my math above, BTW; in a 60-point/12 DC game, this
> would be at most a 3-1/2d6 attack.)
> Look at it this way: On the average, a 3-1/2d6 Normal Attack rolls
13.5
> STUN, 3.17 BODY. Let's assume a typical roll is 14 STUN, 3 BODY.
> A normal human being has 2 PD, which is non-resistant and thus works.
> The normal ends up taking 12 STUN and 1 BODY. It's no worse than getting
> punched by a really strong bully.
> That normal human might be wearing armor worth 12 PD, but that armor is
> resistant and so has no effect. It does *not* increase the damage, nor
> does it negate the usefulness of his natural PD.
> A car has 3 PD, but it's resistant and thus offers no defense. It
takes
> no STUN, but all 3 BODY. It's damaged.

A Questonite wall has 30 PD, but it's resistant and thus offers no defense.
It takes no STUN, but all 3 BODY. It's damaged.

I stand by my claim that your construct allows the destruction of virtually
any rigid object, no matter how strong. This is not what a vortex cannon
does, so, while it is a useful construct, it isn't a vortex cannon.

<snip>
> >6d6 EB, Stun Only, and 6d6 EB, Linked to first EB, only vs rigid targets
> >(-1/2). This gives an attack that only knocks normal human beings out,
and
> >affects superheroes, but only does BODY damage against rigid objects.
Thus,
> >buying a tough suit defined as "Resistant PD", that simply makes your
normal
> >PD resistant, doesn't make you any worse off.
> >
> >But Crystal Boy is in trouble.:)
>
> If I've made myself clear above, you should see that this is different
> from the AVLD method only in how complicated it is to build, and much
> damage can be done for 60 points.

My version is an attack that costs 45 pts, and is effectively only a 6d6
attack (unless used on a rigid object which can take STUN, in which case it
is _two_ 6d6 attacks), with the effect that it breaks most objects but
doesn't damage people, but rather only does STUN to them. This doesn't seem
unreasonable. True, I could, for the same price, buy a 9d6 attack, STUN
Only, or a 9d6 EB that does Normal damage, but these two are considered the
same only because the advantages and limitations of STUN Only are considered
to balance out when compared to Normal damage. Since this attack gets the
benefits of both, it should cost more.

Your construct is an attack that does damage to _any_ object that has no
non-Resistant PD, including cars, tanks, Questonite, or any other material,
no matter how strong. This is not a vortex cannon; it doesn't have that kind
of power. It is just an ordinary EB with an odd SFX which, in the real
world, creates Advantages that should cost a few points, rather than just
being marked down to SFX.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:41:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Creatures

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Are people cool with these postings? I know they aren't as useful as say,
<snip>

I think that these are excellent write-ups, first, because they
can apply to a wide range of Fantasy or Horror genre campagins, and
second, (despite the fact that many of these are Unique or Rare creatures)
they can be used to confront an adventuring party for a random encounter
without undo complexities.

...Michael, you wouldn't happen to have stats for a Gorgon-Medusa
ala Clash of the Titans, would you? :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:08:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Creatures

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Lockie wrote:

> I have no problem with them. . . .one thing, the catoblepas
> you wrote was said to live in Ethipoia, would that be ethiopia as in the
> area of africa, Ethiopia the old name for most or all of africa, or
> Ethipoia, someplace in europe i'm not aware of? Just wondering.

In any old text of the Middle Ages, Ethiopia was that area of Africa that
wasn't Lybia or Egypt.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:53:38 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

On Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:36:17AM -0400, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/12/99 11:08:01 PM, lizard@mrlizard.com writes:
>
> >Well, I finally got around to using CW. I am very disappointed. After
> >struggling through three characters (which took me an hour), the system
> >just crashed. I'm going back to CW.
>
> I assume you mean you're going back to HeroMaker.
>
Yes. Considering it took me an hour to make three characters in CW,
and ten minutes to make the remaining two in HM, there's really no
contest. I did import them for printing, though.

> >I find the interface confusing and ugly (too many windows, too many of
> >the
> >lists have a random blend of folders and 'naked' items). And, as I noted,
> >it crashed for no readily apparent reason.
>
> The interface for Creation Workshop (or HERO Creator) is indeed different
> than HeroMaker, and that takes some adjustment for veteran HeroMaker users.
> It's pretty easy, though, once you understand a couple of basic things. I
> find that showing people that you call up the window you want from the Data
> menu (such as, for instance, Powers), then press the INS key to bring up the
> list of things to add, it goes quite smoothly. (Once you add a Power, click
Yeah, the 'New' button. THAT'S inutivie. NOT!

I'd be less critical if it wasn't for the fact I design interfaces for
a living, among other things.

> the New button to bring up options such as Advantages, Limitations, and so
> on.)

And you get things like a folder called 'Powers' in the list of
Advantages. Sure, I eventually figured it out, but it wasn't easy.

> The lists are not "random" blends of naked items and folders; the folders
> represent sublists. So something like Enhanced Senses will be represented by
> a folder, since there are many different things under one title. (This was
> also true in HeroMaker, though it was shown differently.)
>
Which is why you have the various types of Focus (OAF,OIF.IIF,OIF),
*and* a folder called 'Focus' in the list. (Having the various foci
types 'naked' for quick access is a good idea, but sorted
alphabetically, it just looks messy.)

And I have to do things like rename 'Professional Skill' to
PS:Smuggler, instead of having a field to tpye what the skill is.
Annoying.

With all those windows, drag&drop would be ideal -- for example,
dragging a power into, or out of, a multipower. I finally found out
you can cut&paste...and THAT'S when the system crashed on me.

> As for the crash you experienced, without some idea of how to replicate it,
> we can't help you with that. I can say that we haven't seen any crash bugs
> reported since two versions ago, though (over a year). That doesn't mean one
> might be lurking somewhere, but it's pretty well-hidden if it does exist.
> Unfortunately, there are lots of reasons for computers to crash, including
> all the different hardware and software you have running, so it's quite
> possible something else about your system caused the crash. Still, if you can
> replicate what caused the crash, we'd really like to know about it.
>
I'll try it again.

>
> The main advantage cited is the customizability of HERO Creator. You can
> easily change names, add new skills, and such. With Creation Workshop, you
> can go even further and completely implement your house rules, changing basic
> formulae in the game (assuming you have the time and the skills; programming
> experience is almost a necessity for this level of customization). Also, you
> can customize your output, altering the printouts or creating new output
> filters. And with Creation Workshop you can run conversion scripts between
> game systems. Now that the Call of Cthulhu template is out, and we've
> announced many more (including Ars Magica, GURPS, Deadlands, and Legend of
> the Five RIngs), this feature becomes very handy indeed. Several fans have
> told me they bought the Cthulhu template not because they play CoC, but
> because they plan on using CoC monsters in their Champions campaign.
>
I'm a little disappointed in the GURPS liscence;I use GCA for my GURPS
game. As I entered peoples characters into it, the comment I heard
from ALL of them was, 'Wow, this is so much better than Creation
Workshop!' At the time, I hadn't really used CW, so I couldn't
comment.

Maybe you could convince the author of GCA to write a HERO module?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:09:51 -0400
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com>
Subject: RE: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Adam Johnson
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (RAT)
ajohnson@clariion.com
Life's a long song... but the tune ends too soon for us all
Jethro Tull, "Life's a Long Song," Living in the Past
- ----------------------------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lizard [SMTP:lizard@dnai.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 April, 1999 15:54
> To: HeroGames@aol.com; lizard@mrlizard.com; champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: I am very disappointed with Creation Workshop
>
> On Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:36:17AM -0400, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 4/12/99 11:08:01 PM, lizard@mrlizard.com writes:
>
>
> > The interface for Creation Workshop (or HERO Creator) is indeed different
> > than HeroMaker, and that takes some adjustment for veteran HeroMaker users.
> > It's pretty easy, though, once you understand a couple of basic things. I
> > find that showing people that you call up the window you want from the Data
> > menu (such as, for instance, Powers), then press the INS key to bring up the
> > list of things to add, it goes quite smoothly. (Once you add a Power, click
> Yeah, the 'New' button. THAT'S inutivie. NOT!
>
> I'd be less critical if it wasn't for the fact I design interfaces for
> a living, among other things.
>
[Adam says:]

A friendly suggestion, take it as you will: Perhaps if you write down all your criticisms on the interface and send them to Bruce, perhaps a future version of HC will have some of the suggestions...



> > The lists are not "random" blends of naked items and folders; the folders
> > represent sublists. So something like Enhanced Senses will be represented by
> > a folder, since there are many different things under one title. (This was
> > also true in HeroMaker, though it was shown differently.)
> >
> Which is why you have the various types of Focus (OAF,OIF.IIF,OIF),
> *and* a folder called 'Focus' in the list. (Having the various foci
> types 'naked' for quick access is a good idea, but sorted
> alphabetically, it just looks messy.)
>
[Adam says:]

Well, the folder has all the modifiers for the focus. Granted, I found it a little tedious at first, but I got used to it.


> And I have to do things like rename 'Professional Skill' to
> PS:Smuggler, instead of having a field to tpye what the skill is.
> Annoying.
>
[Adam says:]

Didn't you have to do the same thing in HeroMaker?


> With all those windows, drag&drop would be ideal -- for example,
> dragging a power into, or out of, a multipower. I finally found out
> you can cut&paste...and THAT'S when the system crashed on me.
>
[Adam says:]

None of the three systems that I have CW loaded on have crashed due to cut and paste. Granted, drag and drop would be a nice feature too.



> >
> > The main advantage cited is the customizability of HERO Creator. You can
> > easily change names, add new skills, and such. With Creation Workshop, you
> > can go even further and completely implement your house rules, changing basic
> > formulae in the game (assuming you have the time and the skills; programming
> > experience is almost a necessity for this level of customization). Also, you
> > can customize your output, altering the printouts or creating new output
> > filters. And with Creation Workshop you can run conversion scripts between
> > game systems. Now that the Call of Cthulhu template is out, and we've
> > announced many more (including Ars Magica, GURPS, Deadlands, and Legend of
> > the Five RIngs), this feature becomes very handy indeed. Several fans have
> > told me they bought the Cthulhu template not because they play CoC, but
> > because they plan on using CoC monsters in their Champions campaign.>
> >
> I'm a little disappointed in the GURPS liscence;I use GCA for my GURPS
> game. As I entered peoples characters into it, the comment I heard
> from ALL of them was, 'Wow, this is so much better than Creation
> Workshop!' At the time, I hadn't really used CW, so I couldn't
> comment.
>
[Adam says:]

I use GCA as well, and like it, but I'm willing to give other character creation software packages a shot. I'll give CW: GURPS a shot as well. (Currently I have two GURPS packages, two Champions/HERO -- CW and HeroMaker, one Fuzion, one or two Earthdawn, one Millennium's End, and probably a couple more wandering around somewhere. And I've tried working on a stand-alone TimeLords system, since it has a system to create yourself.)

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #277
*****************************


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