Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 5

Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 11:09 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #3

champ-l-digest Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 003



In this issue:

Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: something odder
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: something odder
Indexes in Game Books
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Indexes in Game Books
Re: something odder
Re: Indexes in Game Books
Re: something odder
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Indexes in Game Books
Re: something odder
Re: something odder
Re: Something Odd (was:Re: Enchanting Items in FH)
Re: something still odder
Re: Indexes in Game Books
Re: Indexes in Game Books
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: something still odder
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Fwd: The Heartbreak Of Indices
Re: Odd Character:Help needed
Re: something odder
Re: something odder
Test
Re: Test
Re: something odder
Stupid Precog Tricks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:24:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, James Jandebeur wrote:

> Or, you could buy Duplication, with a limitation to be "mental only", and
> build the baby separately. Then buy off the limitation when the baby is
> born.

Why not buy Duplication (or Follower) and put a Physlim on the Mother:
Pregnant and one on the baby: Unborn Child? That way you don't need to
mess around with 'mental only' Duplication and such, and you don't need to
suddenly buy off that limitation of the baby is extracted from the mother
for some reason (PhysLim Unborn Child becomes PhysLim: Newborn, at pretty
much the same point level I'd suspect)

J

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:22:04 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

Another possible approach is to build the baby as an AI. Since it
doesn't have its own body, but does have some characteristics,
powers, skills, and the ability to act on its own, the computer
rules cover the egoist fetus quite well.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:28:10 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net>
Subject: Re: something odder

From: Capt. Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>


>Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>> In which rule book?
>>
>> Other than that, I agree. That's why the power has a
>> Magnifying Glass.
>>
>> Filksinger
>
> Okay, I can't be the only one to have seen this; in Champions III
>(second printing), where transform is introduced as a new power, there
>is an example of a 'beneficial' transform which gives people wings (10"
>flight @ -1 lim for a value of 10 points), and reduces their SPD by 1.
>The original write-up of transform, then, specifically states that you
>cannot increase another character's value; benefits must be countered by
>other limitations when using transform.


Yes. My original message mentioned that there was no _current_ rule to this
effect. My request for the rule book sited was intended to show that there
is no 4th Ed. rule book that even _recommends_ against it- it is completely
ignored.

> "The only limitation is that the transformed character may not be
>worth more points that the target ."
> -Champions III, second printing, 1984, page 34.
>
> Now, this is from third edition rules, but since it is not
>specifically addressed after that, I assume it still holds.

Absolutely not. Rules from previous rule books _only_ hold when the GM says
so, whereupon they are house rules.

If this wasn't the case, then the 4th Ed. rulebook wouldn't be the 4th Ed
rule book, it would be an addendum and update of the 3rd Ed. The 4th Ed. has
to be complete in and of itself, or it would be horribly unfair to all the
people who bought it, thinking they were buying a game, only to discover
that many of the official rules that still apply were published in a no
longer available "other" rulebook they know nothing about.

If you want to keep the old rules, it has to be as house rules, or you have
to play 3rd Ed.

>The only
>specific prohibition stated in 4th ed. is that you may not use it on
>yourself.


True. And that is the only completely official limitation upon in in 4th Ed.
All others are by GM ruling.

Of course, since it is a Magnifying Glass power, if a player came up to me
with a power that added points to others, I would be within my rights twice
over (once as GM, once because MG powers require _special_ permission) to
tell him no. And I would.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:38:17 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

>Why not buy Duplication (or Follower) and put a Physlim on the Mother:
>Pregnant and one on the baby: Unborn Child? That way you don't need to
>mess around with 'mental only' Duplication and such, and you don't need to
>suddenly buy off that limitation of the baby is extracted from the mother
>for some reason (PhysLim Unborn Child becomes PhysLim: Newborn, at pretty
>much the same point level I'd suspect)


I didn't want to get into the idea of the baby being hidden inside the
mother, especially since during the pregnancy there are in many ways one
entity, especially in their interdependence. There are no official rules for
having one character hiding inside another, and thus protected by the other
ones defenses and so on, except in the case of vehicles. That's a quibble,
though, and you're probably right about that being a simpler and more
elegant method. Though the mother does need to buy off Pregnant.

I still prefer just building the two as one entity until the birth, then
rebuilding them, but the Duplication as you describe does avoid the rebuild.

JAJ, GP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:45:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

> baby, as yet unborn. Its in the 8th month, with mental powers
first ask yourself some questions:

1. will the baby ever come to full term?
is the character going to be born in a month?

2. is this one "character", really just the mom, and the second
brain and psi just a special effect for her odd mental powers?

3. do you have 2 characters? the mom is 1 and then
the baby, desolid inside her at all times, is number 2,
a competent follower, perhaps.

4. who taught the baby it's psionic skills?

5. which is "more important" to the story, mom, baby, or both?

6. who was the father? was there a father? (!)
==
Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:46:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: something odder

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 gilberg@ou.edu wrote:

> >I mean, if Transformation could be used routinely to add character points
> >to another character... try this on for size, a character with two powers:
> >Duplication and Transformation into something much more powerful. Each
> >duplicate uses the Transformation on the other.
>
> Hmmmm. But is Transforming your duplicate allowable?

Considering that Transforming yourself is not legal, I can't see why/how
Transforming your Duplicate would be. Maybe a better example would be a
guy and a Follower with the powers in question. Or two cooperating
players with the Transform powers.

> Even if so,
> would any sane GM allow this?

Hell no.

>Any and all powers are by GM permission only,
> no matter what the book says. GM's need to keep some controls over what is
> and isn't allowed in a game.

And since the book tells you to keep a close eye on Transform anyway,
well, you have to know that it's abusable and be ready for stuff like
this.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:59:56 -0500
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
Subject: Indexes in Game Books

Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook? If so, what kinds of things
would you want to be able to find quickly?


Lisa Hartjes

beren@unforgettable.com
http://roswell.fortunecity.com/daniken/79
ICQ: Berengiere (9062561)

"Evil is only victorious when Good chooses not to win."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:10:44 -0500
From: Chuck Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

James Jandebeur wrote:
> I didn't want to get into the idea of the baby being hidden inside the
> mother, especially since during the pregnancy there are in many ways one
> entity, especially in their interdependence. There are no official rules for
> having one character hiding inside another, and thus protected by the other
> ones defenses and so on, except in the case of vehicles. That's a quibble,
> though, and you're probably right about that being a simpler and more
> elegant method. Though the mother does need to buy off Pregnant.

actually the mother would then have a dnpc full time since the baby
couldn't do much on it's own. I think to some extent that follower
works a little better in this case.

> I still prefer just building the two as one entity until the birth, then
> rebuilding them, but the Duplication as you describe does avoid the rebuild.

so does follower. especially since the baby can continue on it's own.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:41:46 +0000
From: "J. W. Eiler" <jw_eiler@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

> Though the mother does need to buy off Pregnant.

If DNPC doesn't more than equal PhysLim: Pregnant, I don't know what
else would <g>.

I think it all boils down to one major question -- is the baby a PC? If it's
a PC, then we'll work on ways to do it within PC points limits. If the
baby's an NPC, then the GM can pretty much do as he/she darn well
pleases <g>.

If the baby's a PC, point the scores up as normal, with some serious
PhysLims: "Cannot walk (all the time, total)," "(functionally) blind, (all,
total)," "No manipulative ability (frequently, greatly)." Then you'ld modify
the points based on the psi powers -- i.e. "Cannot walk" is worth a lot
less if the baby can easily teleport, etc....

As far as the Mom's abilities -- I'd either just point her powers up as
normal, with the limitation "Only while pregnant," or give the baby's
powers the "Usable by Others" limitation.

However, for an interesting take on a similar situation, try reading the
Sci-Fi short "And Baby is Three..." -- don't remember the author's name,
but it won a Hugo, and is in one of Asimov's "Hugo Award Winners"
collections.



J. W. Eiler

Darkness falls. Thud. Roll for damage -- no save.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:04:25 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

>actually the mother would then have a dnpc full time since the baby
>couldn't do much on it's own. I think to some extent that follower
>works a little better in this case.


Well, the baby is the one that has the powers, and is fully sentient even
before birth. And it will likely (though not necessarily - the muscles don't
necessarily work right just because you know what they are supposed to do)
develop faster than a normal baby. The Baby is superhuman, the mother less
so: the mother would end up being the DNPC or follower, most likely. Depends
on what the player wants to play, or, if an NPC, doesn't matter.

>so does follower. especially since the baby can continue on it's own.


Entirely depends on whether the person wants to play mother and infant, or
only one of them, once the baby is born. If she (?) wants to play both, then
Duplication is called for.

JAJ, GP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:24:09 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Indexes in Game Books

- ---Lisa Hartjes <beren@unforgettable.com> wrote:
>
> Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook? If so, what kinds
of things
> would you want to be able to find quickly?

every noun and every verb.


==
=======================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing
list. http://www.sysabend.org/champions
=======================================
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:45:43 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: something odder

>Now surely that can't be true. What if someone had never seen the
>first 3
>editions, but bought the 4th edition? How would they know what had
>gone on
>in earlier editions?
>
>Guy
>
>

Yeah! How would I, for instance, know that? I've been playing
Champions/Hero for better than 5 years now, & I think I know the system
fairly well, but I'd have no way of knowing what happened in earlier
editions (unless I wanted to hunt down used copies). I was but a wee
lad when the first edition came out & hadn't even started playing D&D
yet.

The most recent version of the rules is the standard, not the oldest.

That having been said, I'd definitely consider "Transform cannot
increase the point value of the target" a valid house rule, even an
intuitively obvious one. I'm sure there's lots of people who read it
that way, and that's the way I generally play it myself. Otherwise, you
get all kinds of rampant rules abuse, such as a 50-point villain who
creates legions of 500-point brainwashed mutant followers and beats up
your PC's. It's fun once or twice, but you wouldn't enjoy it as a
repeated campaign element.

Jesse Thomas

haerandir@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:07:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Indexes in Game Books

> Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook? If so, what kinds of things
> would you want to be able to find quickly?

I want to know what's the third letter in the fith word of the 12th
to the last sentence of the third section of p67. And I want it in the index.

:)

Seriously though. Every single subject or topic covered in the
book should be indexed.

- --
Rook WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:12:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: something odder

>> Even if so,
>> would any sane GM allow this?

Sure, I'll allow it, but
then 300 HYDRA agents show up in helicopters.

>Hell no.
I would. But then again I LIKE Galactus.
==
Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:17:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

> have a dnpc full time since the baby
> couldn't do much on it's own.

she has a dnpc IF she decides to take care of it.
she has a follower if it stays with her and doesn't need to.
she has psych lim if she gives it up for adoption and feels guilty
she has a mystery disad if she gives it up and it goes out of her life
or she might not spend points on (or get points for) baby at all

And What Is This Child's Name After All?
we can't just call it baby forever...

just some random thoughts on the matter...

==
Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:46:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Indexes in Game Books

Lisa Hartjes writes:
> Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook? If so, what kinds of things
> would you want to be able to find quickly?

Definitely. All of the books should be indexed; I find the lack
of an index a major flaw in them. Indexes are a pain in the ass to
do, but they're essential. Modern indexing software (like the kind
used in FrameMaker) make it somewhat less difficult - you tag words or
phrases and generate an index from the tags.

Even a computer generated concordance would at least provide
something. Actually, I think it would be interesting to start from a
word concordance and maybe a phrase concordance and prune from there
to generate a first set of index tags. But even then, you need to go
through and add logical indexing as well as literal indexing, plus you
need to do noun/verb and verb/noun permutations.

As a (non-champions) example of that, if you have a section about
opening files, you need to index it under "opening files" and "file,
opening", plus as a subindex under a more general heading like "file
manipulation". You also might have to think of other phrases that
might occur to your reader, like "i/o" or "input" or "output", or
"reading a file" or "writing a file", etc.

Indexing is a skill, and believe it or not there are actually
people out there who love doing it and do it professionally. You can
probably find more information at www.stc.org, the Society for
Technical Communicators. It's the leading professional organization
for tech writers. Specifically there's www.stc.org/pics/indexing, and
you might also want out check out the American Society of Indexers at
www.asindexing.org.

Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:45:25 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: something odder

At 01:45 PM 10/29/98 PST, Jesse Thomas wrote:


>The most recent version of the rules is the standard, not the oldest.
>
>That having been said, I'd definitely consider "Transform cannot
>increase the point value of the target" a valid house rule, even an
>intuitively obvious one. I'm sure there's lots of people who read it
>that way, and that's the way I generally play it myself. Otherwise, you
>get all kinds of rampant rules abuse, such as a 50-point villain who
>creates legions of 500-point brainwashed mutant followers and beats up
>your PC's. It's fun once or twice, but you wouldn't enjoy it as a
>repeated campaign element.
>

I, too, agree that the current rules allow transformations to forms with
higher point values.

While I can understand why some GM's would have house rules forbidding
this, I wouldn't want to see an official return to the Champions III rule.
There are far too many transformations in comics and other genres which
merit this sort of increased-point transformation. And for the most part,
those transformations would not be detrimental to game balance. A shrinking
ray could easily cost a target more in levels of Shrinking than it would
buy down in STR and other characteristics. Plenty of villains have gimmicks
that turn ordinary people into menaces only a superhero can handle. And
people who become vampires *do* generally get tougher, like it or not.

Certainly a Transform that increases a character's point total should be
carefully examined by the GM, but so should a Transform that gives a
character a 25 point Psych Lim: Loyalty to the Tranformer, then gets rid of
all noncombat skills and turns them into Combat Levels. My point: Transform
is an easily abused skill, and so merits GM attention, but is a power which
needs to be in the rules in as flexible a form as possible.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:31:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: something odder

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Jesse Thomas wrote:

> The most recent version of the rules is the standard, not the oldest.
>
> That having been said, I'd definitely consider "Transform cannot
> increase the point value of the target" a valid house rule, even an
> intuitively obvious one. I'm sure there's lots of people who read it
> that way, and that's the way I generally play it myself. Otherwise, you
> get all kinds of rampant rules abuse, such as a 50-point villain who
> creates legions of 500-point brainwashed mutant followers and beats up
> your PC's. It's fun once or twice, but you wouldn't enjoy it as a
> repeated campaign element.

Hmm. Well, I know not everyone likes Aaron Allston's work on Ninja Hero,
but I believe he did just this - there was a sorceror who could turn
normal people into super-powered martial artists, and if I remember right
he did it using Transform. So it would seem that the 'no point increase'
has been removed from the official rules and relegated to the arena of
GM's discretion.

Now, would I let the PCs take a power like that? No way. That sort of
power is 'GM only' and used for building things like Galactus, the Wild
Cards virus, and other similar stuff.

Although, actually, I might allow a PC to take it, as long as it was
properly limited. For instance, if there was a wizard who wanted to
perform magical experiments on people or animals, Transform might be the
best (and only) way to really do it. I just wouldn't ever allow
'Transform bystander into kilopoint monstrosity loyal only to me' as a
player power...

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:33:37 +1000
From: m <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Something Odd (was:Re: Enchanting Items in FH)

ewww! i just do soap-opera-esque betrayals of other party members:

'vladamir! you sole my feet! how could you? nooooo!!!!'

Brian Wawrow wrote:

> [Brian Wawrow] So, by 'another source' for DEX, I assume you
> mean to capture the swiftest runner in the villiage and magically drain
> his DEX until his legs are withered and useless? My players and I have a
> question we ask each other as spellcaster slowly lose their souls trying
> to cast big spells and do increasingly evil things in the pursuit of
> power... 'Are you ready to eat the baby?'
>
> like so...
> Summon 850pt. Demonic Soul Eater:
> OAF [-1], x-time [-1], gestures [-1/2], incantations [-1/2],
> skill roll [-1/2], side FX [-1], ... Must Eat a Baby [-2]
>
> BRI

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:01:27 -0500
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: something still odder

At 05:45 PM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I, too, agree that the current rules allow transformations to forms with
>higher point values.
>
>While I can understand why some GM's would have house rules forbidding
>this, I wouldn't want to see an official return to the Champions III rule.
>There are far too many transformations in comics and other genres which
>merit this sort of increased-point transformation. And for the most part,
>those transformations would not be detrimental to game balance. A shrinking
>ray could easily cost a target more in levels of Shrinking than it would
>buy down in STR and other characteristics. Plenty of villains have gimmicks
>that turn ordinary people into menaces only a superhero can handle. And
>people who become vampires *do* generally get tougher, like it or not.
>
<snip>

Okay, how about this:
I'm an old X-Men fan, though I'm years out of touch. Rogue could absorb
the powers and memories of another person, leaving them unconscious. The
catch is, unlike the Super-Adaptoid and his ilk who have a large variable
power pool to mimic other people's powers with, Rogue seems to have no
upper limit. At least once, she absorbed all the powers of four of her
teammates at once.
Is there some easy way to build this that I've missed (Probably)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:52:26 -0500
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Indexes in Game Books

At 02:59 PM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook? If so, what kinds of things
>would you want to be able to find quickly?
>
>
yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!!!!
All game books need an index!
Without knowing the content of the soursebook, I'd have a hard time
suggesting what to index, but:
The index should be as long as the Table of Contents, at least.
The index should be at least one page.
_Every_ table should be in the index.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 00:26:37
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Indexes in Game Books

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:59:56 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote:

>Would you like to see an index in a sourcebook?

Indices are critical!

> If so, what kinds of things
>would you want to be able to find quickly?

Titles, synonyms, acronyms, types, key words. eg in TUSV, under 'car',
I'd expect to see all car-type vehicles. Don't be afraid of putting in
entries like 'see X' or 'passim'.

If in doubt, split it into multiple indices - a Table of Contents and
an Index, for instance, or like a phone directory, by business name and
business type.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 00:31:31
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:04:25 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:

>>actually the mother would then have a dnpc full time since the baby
>>couldn't do much on it's own. I think to some extent that follower
>>works a little better in this case.
>
>
>Well, the baby is the one that has the powers, and is fully sentient even
>before birth. And it will likely (though not necessarily - the muscles don't
>necessarily work right just because you know what they are supposed to do)
>develop faster than a normal baby. The Baby is superhuman, the mother less
>so: the mother would end up being the DNPC or follower, most likely. Depends
>on what the player wants to play, or, if an NPC, doesn't matter.

A quick check: are we talking about something along the lines of Paul
Atreides' sister in Dune?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 00:35:11
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: something still odder

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:01:27 -0500, geoff heald wrote:

>At 05:45 PM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>I, too, agree that the current rules allow transformations to forms with
>>higher point values.
>>
>>While I can understand why some GM's would have house rules forbidding
>>this, I wouldn't want to see an official return to the Champions III rule.
>>There are far too many transformations in comics and other genres which
>>merit this sort of increased-point transformation. And for the most part,
>>those transformations would not be detrimental to game balance. A shrinking
>>ray could easily cost a target more in levels of Shrinking than it would
>>buy down in STR and other characteristics. Plenty of villains have gimmicks
>>that turn ordinary people into menaces only a superhero can handle. And
>>people who become vampires *do* generally get tougher, like it or not.
>>
><snip>
>
>Okay, how about this:
>I'm an old X-Men fan, though I'm years out of touch. Rogue could absorb
>the powers and memories of another person, leaving them unconscious. The
>catch is, unlike the Super-Adaptoid and his ilk who have a large variable
>power pool to mimic other people's powers with, Rogue seems to have no
>upper limit. At least once, she absorbed all the powers of four of her
>teammates at once.
>Is there some easy way to build this that I've missed (Probably)?

Transfer with a lowish fade rate? Or, for rules-raping, how about
Desolid UAO, Leaves Body Behind? The SFX being that they are bound to
her as long as she pays END

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:45:36 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

>A quick check: are we talking about something along the lines of Paul
>Atreides' sister in Dune?


Such was my impression, yes.
JAJ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:46:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

At 01:31 PM 10/29/98 -0500, Chuck Badger wrote:
>Kim Foster wrote:
>> I've been totally stumped on how to work out this this character idea and
>> was hoping someone on the list could help. Here goes: The character is a
>> baby, as yet unborn. Its in the 8th month and already posseses a highly
>> developed mind and an impressive portfolio of psionic powers including
>> telepathy, powerful Mind Scan and teleportation abilites (it of course,
>> carries its mother along when it teleports). Its mother has some limited
>> psionics as well and is a fully indepentent being, quite aware of her
>> child's strange nature but not controlled by it in anyway. Just how would
>> you go about building this character, taking into account its current state.
>
>which is th pc? You could do up the adult as the "hero" and the baby as
>a dependent/follower. I would definitely use the follower rules since
>the baby is giving the mother abilities beyond her own.
>
>


The infant would be the "pc".

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:46:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

At 11:45 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Egyptoid wrote:
>> baby, as yet unborn. Its in the 8th month, with mental powers
>first ask yourself some questions:
>
>1. will the baby ever come to full term?
>is the character going to be born in a month?

It will be born normally at a later date.

>
>2. is this one "character", really just the mom, and the second
>brain and psi just a special effect for her odd mental powers?


They are two seperate character, capable of indepentant thoughts and actions.


>
>3. do you have 2 characters? the mom is 1 and then
>the baby, desolid inside her at all times, is number 2,
>a competent follower, perhaps.
>
>4. who taught the baby it's psionic skills?

As for this game, Psionic powers do not have to be "taught" as such.
>
>5. which is "more important" to the story, mom, baby, or both?

They are equally important.

>
>6. who was the father? was there a father? (!)

Thats a secret. :D

>==
> Elliott aka Egyptoid
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:16:32 -0500
From: "John Desmarais" <john.desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Fwd: The Heartbreak Of Indices

Steve sent this to the wrong address.

==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>From: SteveL1979@aol.com
>Received: from SteveL1979@aol.com
> by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 7MZWa03786
> for <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org&> Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:51:44 +1900 (EST)
>Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:51:44 EST
>To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: The Heartbreak Of Indices
>

<< Indices are critical! >>

Absolutely! It's unfortunate that so many game products don't have them, or
have ones which are virtually useless due to the way they are created.
The sad truth is that doing a *good* index takes time. A hell of a lot of
time. There isn't a single piece of indexing software out there (that I know
of, anyway) which even approaches doing a decent job. The only way to do one
right is to have one or more humans go through the manuscript -- the final,
laid-out one, with all the page numbers -- and note everything to be indexed
by hand. And it should be noted under all conceivable synonyms or alternate
ways of conceiving of it. Instead of just having, to use the given example,
"Cars," the index should also have "Automobiles," "Vehicles," and the like.
And each car under "Cars" (etc.) should have its own, separate, individual
entry.
Problem is, that takes time. A LOT of time. And it's mighty boring work
for most people. When you're up against a deadline, and there are more
interesting things to do (like, say, creating more cool gaming products), and
you don't want to hold the product up for another couple of weeks while you do
an index because there are bills to pay and readers are hollerin' for the
book, it's easy to skip or skimp on the index. Which is a shame, but so it
goes.
Those of you who have CHAMPIONS DELUXE, take a look at the index in the
back. That took me a *month* of working every evening and weekend day to do.
IMO (certainly not an unbiased one :) ), it's the most complete, best index
ever seen in a gaming book. At 16 pages, I certainly think it's the longest;
compare it to, for example, the 14-page index in the ROLEMASTER ANNUAL 1996,
which covers a large number of products, not just one.
But even at that, the Champs Deluxe index *still* isn't good enough. I'm
constantly finding things I missed, or should have added to it, or what have
you. To really do it right, I'd guess that I'd have to go over the book at
*least* three more times, cover to cover. Hopefully I'll have that
opportunity with 5th Ed.
But, in short -- that, alas, is why you see so few game books with really
good indices.

Steve Long


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:04:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Character:Help needed

At 12:31 AM 10/30/98, qts wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:04:25 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>
>>>actually the mother would then have a dnpc full time since the baby
>>>couldn't do much on it's own. I think to some extent that follower
>>>works a little better in this case.
>>
>>
>>Well, the baby is the one that has the powers, and is fully sentient even
>>before birth. And it will likely (though not necessarily - the muscles don't
>>necessarily work right just because you know what they are supposed to do)
>>develop faster than a normal baby. The Baby is superhuman, the mother less
>>so: the mother would end up being the DNPC or follower, most likely. Depends
>>on what the player wants to play, or, if an NPC, doesn't matter.
>
>A quick check: are we talking about something along the lines of Paul
>Atreides' sister in Dune?
>qts
>
>Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
>
>

I don't know that character so I can't compare.

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 03:31:00 -0800
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: something odder

Jesse Thomas wrote:
>
> >Now surely that can't be true. What if someone had never seen the
> >first 3
> >editions, but bought the 4th edition? How would they know what had
> >gone on
> >in earlier editions?

<<etc.; more complaining about my 'obscure' reference>>

OK! OK! I'm sorry I brought it up! But I was merely stating that
there WAS a ruling on that subject at one time. That's what the list
here is for, isn't it? So that obscure and arcane knowledge can be
passed on to the acolytes?
So yes, there are two basic reasons there is no mention in 4th ed.
rules. 1)They inadvertantly left it out, or assumed that it was
understood to mean what they said the first time, or 2)They removed that
limitation from the official power description. I don't know which.
Should we forward this to Steve P., in case there's still time to
include a clarification for ed. 5?

That being said, most examples of transformations into more powerful
beings given here seem to mostly follow the original rule, anyway.
Turning someone into a Vampire gives them lots of vampiric disads to
counter their increased point value, and turning normals into
paranormals usually comes with some level of 'loyalty to master'
disad(s) as well. Though I think the issue is more pertinent to the
effect on PCs than NPCs.

- --
-Reverend Spith
"I used to be a heathen, but then I saw the Light. Now I'm a pagan"

- -Anonymous

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:00:35 EST
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Subject: Re: something odder

In a message dated 98-10-30 06:31:04 EST, cptspith@teleport.com writes:

<< Should we forward this to Steve P., in case there's still time to include a
clarification for ed. 5? >>

There's still time for suggestions, since the revisions process is ongoing.

Steve Long

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:02:57 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Test

Please Ignore

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:08:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Test

On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> Please Ignore

Okay, I did. Now what?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:10:07 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: something odder

At 07:00 AM 10/30/98 EST, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 98-10-30 06:31:04 EST, cptspith@teleport.com writes:
>
><< Should we forward this to Steve P., in case there's still time to
include a
>clarification for ed. 5? >>
>
> There's still time for suggestions, since the revisions process is ongoing.
>

My suggestion is that transformations to more powerful forms be explicitly
allowed - with GM approval. There are many effects in comics and other
genres which require this construct.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:38:27 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: Stupid Precog Tricks

I'm playing around with a character design -- the character has an
erratic precognitive sense (a low activation roll or no conscious
control, I haven't decided).

The character's precognitive visions are reasonably accurate. I'm
thinking of giving her bonus PRE, defensive only, only for events she's
foreseen -- since she knows what's coming up, she can mentally brace for
it. My question is what sort of value would the second limitation have?
I'm leaning toward giving it the same value as linked, but I can also
make a case for basing the value off the limitation on the precognition.
If she can hardly ever use the precog (say, 8- Activation or NCC), then
she'll hardly ever be able to use the extra PRE and should get a bigger
point cut. Opinions, anyone?

I'm also thinking of giving her a few DCV-only combat levels, SFX she
unconsciously senses her opponent's move and tries to dodge. Can anyone
think of other minor precog-type powers she might have? (Danger Sense
sounds redundant for her, but I'll listen to dissenting opinions.)

Leah

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------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #3
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