Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 319

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:25 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #319


champ-l-digest Thursday, May 6 1999 Volume 01 : Number 319



In this issue:

Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: Int vs. Age
adv: Important Psychic Message For You...
CHAMPS: combat armor
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: Aid and comfort
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: Re: New age elementals.
Re: Int vs. Age
Unfinished CHAR: Jetaime Morgana
Re: CHAMPS: combat armor
CHAR: Fabulous Frogman
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: Duplication and Multiform
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 17:04:36 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

At 04:56 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Wed, 05 May 1999
>| What I thought of was Gravity, Electromagnetism, the Weak Nuclear Force
>| and the Strong Nuclear Force...but it might well be hard to distinguish
>| between the latter two in character design.
>
>Hypothetically it is impossible to distingush them from each other, but
>that has yet to be proven for all four fundamental forces :).
>

It might make a good bit for the four fundamental force characters to
combine into a Grand Unification character.

>But my take is that 'weak' is represented with an internal direction,
>powers that affect the character himself, while 'strong' is represented by
>an external direction, powers that affect others.
>

Sounds like good solid superhero science to me.

- - Bill Svitavsky

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 17:52:06 -0400
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

While not entirely what you are looking for, you could look into
Enthalpy, Entropy, Matter, and Energy (or antimatter).

Mathieu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:55:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

On Wed, 5 May 1999, Steven J. Owens wrote:

> Ever tried to teach a 55-year-old housewife how to use a
> computer? Not to knock 55-year-old-housewives; pick any demographic
> that wouldn't have been exposed to complex technological systems; or
> turn it around and discuss trying to teach an engineer how to be
> more artistically creative after being hammered into a systematic,
> methodical mindset by the five-year-hazing-process that is called
> getting an engineering degree.

I am convinced that my mother has a mental block against learning how my
old computer works. And she is about 55.


- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"Think for yourselves and question authority."
Dr. Timothy Leary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 00:45:01 Pacific Daylight Time
From: silvia_brown@usa.net
Subject: adv: Important Psychic Message For You...

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This message is intended for Psychic Readers, Psychic Users and people who are involved in the $1 Billion a year Psychic Industry. If this message has reached you in error, please disregard it and accept our apoligies. To be removed from this list, please respond with the subject "remove". Thank You.














LIVE PERSONAL PSYCHIC! (as seen on T.V.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:52:41 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: CHAMPS: combat armor

Im working on equipment to outfit a group of black op non-supers in my super
game, and I wanted to throw these numbers pastyou guys. They use the best
tech they can muster to even out the odds between them and the supers.

Im my world, armor has been streamlined and weight reduced to make it more
practical. It is fairly common for the top of the line suits to weigh around
20 lbs for a full bodysuit.

Ultra tech ( the stuff only goverment and supers have) armor has been reduced
to a full suit weighing around 10 lbs, or possably even less in extreme
cases. If you want a picture of ultratech armor, think of the the look and
weight of the suits they wear in Lost in Space, with the power to make a few
9mm rounds in the chest survivable.

ACA- ACA, or advanced combat armor, is standard issue to all operatives who
will be engaging in field combat. It is composed of ultrafine ballistic mesh,
and enery defusing polymors.

Powers-
25% damage reduction 10 pts
armor 5ED, 5 PD 15 pts

Mods-
OIF
- -1/2
Independant -1/2
Real Armor -1/4


Hows that look guys? thanks :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:47:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?

At 03:42 PM 5/5/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
>
> What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
>
> ...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?

Per Steve Long's text in "An Eye For An Eye" (page 7), it's the
equivalent of -1 for "Only to Go First," and an additional -1 for "Only
Affects a Single Maneuver."
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Wayne Shaw wrote:

> >I am curious about something. I always used Aid for three things:
> >1. To boost a power or characteristic that someone already has
> >2. To heal someone that is damaged or drained in some way
> >3. To give someone a power they lack for a temporary period.
> >
> >According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
> >the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
> >powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
> >someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
> >true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
> >this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
> >
> >UBO and UAO seem to be very limited in their scope and utility (you have to
> >keep line of sight, etc) and cost a lot to do something as simple as give
> >someone IR vision, especially considering none of that is needed and you
> >get points back if you use a focus. Transform costs even more, and has no
> >mechanic to control what happens (you can give someone 1 point of Knockback
> >resistance or give them 85D6 energy blast for the same dice roll if you use
> >Transform for this).
>
> Truth is, there really _is_ no good power granting mechanism within Hero.
> You note the problems with all three: Aid is technically not able to do it,
> Tranform is open ended about it (though I've heard Fifth may address that a
> bit), and UBO has it's problems.

Isn't there an option in the first Almanac addressing this issue? I think
it proposed rolling UBO and UAO into a broader category, Usable On Others.
I don't remember the exact mechanics.

- --Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* "Why would the government want to turn Scully into *
* a bimbo?" -- Frohike, THE X-FILES 5/2/99 *
*************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?

>At 03:42 PM 5/5/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>>Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
>>
>> What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
>>
>> ...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?
>
> Per Steve Long's text in "An Eye For An Eye" (page 7), it's the
>equivalent of -1 for "Only to Go First," and an additional -1 for "Only
>Affects a Single Maneuver."

The former version is okay...though, I think underlimited given how much
you're losing...but he latter is a pain in the butt compareable and even
worse in some ways that Speed Aid.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:40:05 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: New age elementals.

In a message dated 5/5/99, 3:31:52 PM, Akirazeta@aol.com writes:
<<May i suggest picking up a copy of shadowrun. They have a system like your
looking for detailed in depth. Even if you dont wanna play it, look for
someone who has a copy, and use it for ideas. :)
>>

if you are going to pick up a SR book for this purpose (elementals), you
might want to pick up the Grimoire

andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:12:59 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

Michael Surbrook wrote:

> On Wed, 5 May 1999, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>
> > Ever tried to teach a 55-year-old housewife how to use a
> > computer? Not to knock 55-year-old-housewives; pick any demographic
> > that wouldn't have been exposed to complex technological systems; or
> > turn it around and discuss trying to teach an engineer how to be
> > more artistically creative after being hammered into a systematic,
> > methodical mindset by the five-year-hazing-process that is called
> > getting an engineering degree.
>
> I am convinced that my mother has a mental block against learning how my
> old computer works. And she is about 55.

Sounds like two more votes for "Set in ones Ways" being a standard aged
personality disadvantage.

Lance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:48:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Unfinished CHAR: Jetaime Morgana

Here's what I have so far for Jetaime, sans the Disadvantages... I'm
running this buy you nice folks so you can poke and pick at it. I'm not
sure how combat efficent she'll be... but I think I have the concept down
pretty well.

Jetaime Morgana

Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2 d6
24 DEX 42 14- OCV: 8 / DCV: 8
12 CON 4 11-
12 BODY 4 11-
12 INT 2 11- PER Roll 11-
12 EGO 4 11-
12 PRE 2 11- PRE Attack: 2d6+1
18 COM 4 13-

6 PD 3
5 ED 3
4 SPD 6 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
8 REC 6
36 END 6
31 STUN 6

Total Characteristics Cost: 95

Movement:
Running: 12" / 24"
Swimming: 2" / 4"

Cost Powers & Skills
"Special Training"

12 +6" Running, 12" total
4 +3" Superleap, 1/2 END (+1/4)
2 +3" Superleap; Requires 1/2 Move (-1/4)

"Economy of Motion"

6 1/2 END on 12" Running
0 1/2 END on +3" Superleap (Calculated above)
3 1/2 END on 13 STR

"Archery Skill"

27 +4 SPD "Swift Firing" Only for bow attacks (-1/2)
(Phases: 2, 5, 8, 11)
6 +6 DEX "Lightning Reflexes"; Only to go first (-1), Only for bow
attacks (-1/2)
5 +2 OCV with Bow, Only used to offset Hit Location Penalties (-1)
3 +1 OCV with Bow
2 +1 Range Skill Level to offset range penalties with Bow

30 "Bow Skill Multipower" 60 points;
8 Recoverable Charges (0), OAF (-1)
1) "Arrow Meets Gun Barrel"
3u 16d6 Dispel (3), any firearm (+1/4); OAF (-1)
2) "Pinning Shot"
2u 2d6 Entangle (10), Takes no Damage (+1/2), Backlash
(+1/2, Backlash damage is the same as Linked RKA); Only works when target
is near a wall or other large, sturdy object (-1/2), Victim may still be
able to use some Accessable Foci (-1/4), Cannot create "walls" (-1/4), OAF
(-1)
1d6+1 RKA; Linked (-1/2), No KB (-1/4), OAF (-1)
3) "Maxium Pull Shot"
2u 4d6 RKA; No KB (-1/2), OAF (-1)
4) "Various Accuracy, Skill, and Trick Shots"
3u 1d6 RKA, Variable Advantage: +2 (+3); OAF (-1)
5) "Intercepting Shot"
2u Missile Deflection & Reflection, thrown,
arrows or projectiles, Ranged (+1); One attack per charge only (0),
Reflection only works on Limited SFX: Thrown objects such as grenades and
gas canisters (Only applied to Reflection cost, -1/2), OAF (-1)
6) "Disarming and Skill Shot"
2u Trick Shot, TK 22, Fine Manipulation; Useable only for knocking
things over and knocking weapons out of hands (-1), OAF (-1)

114

Perks, Talents, and Others
3 Fast Draw
1 Latent Find Weakness
5 Luck
1 Low Nobility
5 Well Off

Background Skills:
3 Breakfall 14-
2 KS: Archery 11-
2 KS: The Archery World 11-
2 PS: Huntress 11-
1 SS: Aerodynamics (Specifically, the Science of Arrow Flight) 8-
3 Shadowing 11-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Survival 11-
1 Tatics 8-
3 Tracking 11-
3 WS: Bow and Arrow 11-

Total Skill Cost: 26

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 155
Total Character Cost: 250

(Jetaime Morgana created by Jason Sullivan, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:26:02 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: combat armor

>Powers-
> 25% damage reduction 10 pts
> armor 5ED, 5 PD 15 pts
>
>Mods-
> OIF > -1/2
> Independant > -1/2
> Real
Armor > -1/4

Independent is -2, but the powers look good. If these suits are designed
to be worn by people facing supers, you might want a little more armor.

Leah

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:57:38 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>
Subject: CHAR: Fabulous Frogman

For those of you who also are on the DC Heroes/MEGS list (and you know
who you are) this in NOT my "Hounds" version of The Fabulous Frogman,
but yet another update that once appeared in a Marvel Heroes Campaing I
ran. A little more experience and a lot more going for him...

THE FABULOUS FROG MAN
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13/25 STR 3 12/14- 151kg/800kg; 2d6/5d6
14/24 DEX 12 12/14- OCV: 8; DCV: 8
13/28 CON 6 12/15-
10 BODY 0 11-
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack 2d6
10 COM 0 11-
5 PD 2 Total PD/rPD: 11/6
4 ED 1 Total ED/rED 10/6
3/5 SPD 6 Phases: 3, 5, 8, 10, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
25/35 STUN 1
Total Characteristics Cost: 44
Movement: Run: 6"/12"
Swim: 2"/4"
Superleap: 35"/280"

Powers & Skills
Frogman Battle suit v2.0; OIF: - (138)
+12 STR: Exoskeleton; OIF: - (6) [1]
+10 DEX: Exoskeleton; OIF: - (15)
+15 CON: Exeskeleton; OIF: - (15)
+2 SPD: Exoskeleton; OIF: - (13)
+10 STUN; OIF: - (7)
Armor (6 PD/6 ED); OIF: - (12)
Damage Reduction (Physical, 50%); Limited Power: Only vs falling/Move
through damage: -1; OIF: - (7)
END Reserve: Power Supplies (40 END, 10 REC/turn); Recovery Rate: turn;
OIF: - (9)
Radio Listen and Transmit; OIF: - (3)
Clinging (Clinging STR +0); OIF: - (7)
Life Support: Battle suit life support; OIF: - (11)
Need Not Breathe; OIF: - (7)
Life Support: High Pressure/Vacuum; OIF: - (2)
Life Support: Intense Heat/Cold; OIF: - (2)
Superleap (+30", 35", NC: 280"); Non-Combat Multiplier: 8, +10;
Reduced END: Half, +; OIF: - (33) [3]
Kung Fu (35)
Legsweep +2 -1 9d6
Martial Block +2 +2 --
Martial Dodge -- +5 --
Martial Strike 0 +2 10d6
Martial Throw +0 +1 8d6+v/5
Offensive Strike -2 +1 12d6
+3 DC for Martial Attacks (12)
Acrobatics 8- (1)
Breakfall 14- (3)
Climbing 8- (1)
Criminology 8- (1)
Deduction 13- (3)
Electronics 8- (1)
Forensic Medicine 8- (1)
Inventor 8- (1)
Knowledge Skill: Kung Fu 11- (2)
Knowledge Skill: Super heroes 11- (2)
Area Knowledge: Empire State University 11- (2)
Area Knowledge: New York City 11- (2)
French (Basic Conv.); Literacy: Standard, 0 (1)
Mechanics 11- (3)
Paramedic 8- (1)
Security Systems 8- (1)
Shadowing 11- (3)
Stealth 14- (3)
Systems Operation 8- (1)
Contact: Spiderman 8-; Usefulness: Normal, +0 (1)
Contact: Captain America 8-; Usefulness: Normal, +0 (1)
Favor: Human Torch (1)
+2 level w/Superleap (6)

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 215
Total Character Cost: 259
Disadvantages: + 100
DNPC: Father (Normal, 11-); Skills: Useful, -5 (10)
Distinctive Features: Ridiculous Superhero Costume; Concealability:
Easily, 5; Reaction: Always noticed & major reaction, +5 (10)
Normal Characteristic Maxima (20)
Psych. Lim.: Worships Heroes (Very Common, Strong) (20)
Psych. Lim.: Overconfident (Common, Moderate) (10)
Psych. Lim.: Code Vs Killing (Common, Total) (20)
Reputation: Accidental Hero (11-, Extreme) (15)
Vulnerability: Magnetic Attacks (2 STUN); Attack: Uncommon, +5 (10)
Other: Fledgling Super hero bonus (44)
Total Disadvantage Points: 259
Story: : Eugene Padilio is the only son of small time costumed (not
super) villain Leapfrog. After realizing how stupid it was trying to be
a super criminal, Mr. Padilio served his time and went straight. He kept
the suit though and that's where his problems began. His young son,
Eugene started taking the suit and "fighting crime" as the fabulous
Frogman. He has "aided" Spiderman, the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
After graduating from high school, Eugene enrolled at ESU and is
pursuing a degree in criminal science. He intends on becoming a complete
crime fighter. After seeing a demonstration by students from the Brown
Belt kung fu studios, Eugene enrolled realizing that his arsenal was a
little bare. He soon befriended Abe Brown, the owner of the studios.
Brown who had seen action in the world of super heroics took special
interest in Eugene who had confided in him his secret identity as
Frogman. After the fall of Onslaught, Frogman began to step up his crime
fighting. Realizing that he really didn't stand a chance against the
costumed villains, he stuck to street crime and made something of a name
for himself. After Abe Brown took the mantle of Dragon Fist, he and
Frogman teamed up to do battle with the forces of evil on a regular
basis, the older, more experienced Dragon Fist found he enjoyed the
boundless energy and budding genius of the young amphibian based hero.
When Weapon Avenger joined Team Wildfire, he and Eugene's father and
Eugene seriously upgraded and streamlined the Frogman Battle suit into
something actually formidable. They continue in their efforts to this
day. Frogman has become something of a cult hero among the really young.

Personality: Eugene would have made a great knight of the round table.
He is noble, self-sacrificing and almost incorruptible. He relishes his
role as a defender of the meek. His hero worship of Spiderman is due in
part to the fact that Spiderman has demonstrated similar traits during
his career. While he realizes that his name and costume don't set the
underworld awash with terror, he is proud of his father's and his
accomplishments and isn't gonna abandon it. He is, however considering a
name change, maybe Leapfrog or Amphiman ..
Powers/Tactics: Frogman is a master crime fighter in the making. He has
shown a flair for science, physical activities and detective work. His
desire is to improve the battle suit by adding amphibian abilities and
his own physical and mental skills. He is also showing signs of
leadership and communications skills.
The Frogman battle suit consists of an exoskeleton that increases his
strength and reflexes and has underwater and communications systems.
Using micro hooks and suction pads he can cling to vertical surfaces and
the main ability of the suit, the leaping, can fly about 100' or more in
a single bound. He has added an arsenal of martial arts to the package
and can hold his own against low to mid level super villains.

Height: 180cm (5'11"), Weight: 75kg (165 lbs), Sex: Male, Age: 19, Race:
human
Appearance: Appearance: Eugene is an athletic looking young man with
short red hair and green eyes. He generally wears comfortable if not
fashionable clothes. The Frogman battle suit is two toned green with a
full face mask and protruding bulbous eyes. He has eliminated the
necessity of the backpack harness and there are no longer large springs
on the bottom of his feet.


I apologize for the Character sheet. I keep using the stuff I get from
CW...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:27:52 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: New age elementals.


>At 11:18 AM 5/5/99 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>If you want to go that direction, there's:
>>
>>Strong Force
>>Weak Force
>>Gravity
>>Electromagnetism
>>
>>
>
>
>The "Quantum Squad"!
>That could work!
>
>
>

and i guess their master would be called GUTman! *g*

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:26:08 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

*L* it's all good, shadowrun's a good basis or a modern-elemental
perspective anyways.

- -----Original Message-----
From: AndMat3@aol.com <AndMat3@aol.com>
To: AndMat3@aol.com <AndMat3@aol.com&> jonesl@cqnet.com.au
<jonesl@cqnet.com.au&> champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: New age elementals.


>In a message dated 5/5/99 10:01:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
AndMat3@aol.com
>writes:
>
>> Toxic comes to mind... even if not as a Shamantic totem thing... but as a
>> more "heremetic" elemental... trash; toxic waste... 3-mile island type
>stuff.
>>
>>
>> another is Sprawl... bringing blight, depression... that kind of stuff.
>>
>> and Information... which would be a lot like an Otaku.
>>
>> let me know when you decide what's what.
>>
>> andy
>
>ahhh... sorry.... i must have been thinking about Shadowrun... sorry.
>
>andy
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:30:23 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
>I guess here is the way I would say it: the Shapeshift/VPP construct gives
>you someone who can change shape to LOOK like an animal (or other shapes)
>and Multiform gives you someone who can BECOME animal (although mind and
>personality is usually maintained).

bzzt! again, you assume things about hero. If you have shapeshift and
vpp, maybe your sfx is that you look like an animal, but it could just
as easily be that you've become one. It's sfx, not mechanics. Don't
hinder the sfx wiht the mechanics, that's the idea.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:45:15 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com>
To: happyelf <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age


>happyelf writes:
>
>> > With respect to changes in intelligence due to age; consider it
>> >from a pattern recognition perspective:
>> >
>> > People learn more patterns (of vision, of movement, of behavior,
>> >of information, etc) as they mature. Adults have a wealth of internal
>> >patterns and (hopefully) the ability to recognize a series of facts as
>> >related to or similar to an existing pattern, and react accordingly.
>>
>> So do children.
>
> You don't consider children people?
>

here's the quote again:

>> >Adults have a wealth of internal
>> >patterns and (hopefully) the ability to recognize a series of facts as
>> >related to or similar to an existing pattern, and react accordingly.
>>
>> So do children.

duh?

>> In fact, the majority of such data is recieved in childhood. That's
>> when people learn most of what the learn.
>
> You phrase this as if it were a contradiction of my statement,
>but in point of fact you're agreeing with my statement. Or was there
>something else you were trying to convey?
>


later on you use this to suggest that adults can be stuck in their ways.
truth is,
we learn most of our data from a storage pov early in life.

>> Insight problems? I wasn't aware there was an age-based
>> trend there.
>
> Ever tried to teach a 55-year-old housewife how to use a
>computer? Not to knock 55-year-old-housewives; pick any demographic
>that wouldn't have been exposed to complex technological systems; or
>turn it around and discuss trying to teach an engineer how to be
>more artistically creative after being hammered into a systematic,
>methodical mindset by the five-year-hazing-process that is called
>getting an engineering degree.
>

Firstly, that isn't what we're talking about, i thought. i mean insight
problems
as in certain puzzles that are used in research. basically what you actually
described,
a puzzle that seems ot resemble known puzzles but is actually solved
differently.
I was responding to this:

"when the pattern only *seems* to resemble a known pattern"

that's in insight problem.

Second, oldrer people learn new things less because they aren't
in the phase where their norms are set down, like kiddies are.
It takes longer, especially if new concepts are placed in a context and
jargon unfamiliar to them.

>> > Children are often faster to learn and become proficient in
>> >completely new situations (for example videogames and more generally
>> >computers in the last generation or so :-). In part this is because
>> >they're more open to absorbing new patterns directly, by virtue of
>> >having fewer patterns and less of a history of fitting new situatoins
>> >to known patterns.
>>
>> gee, it could be because they're primed to learn at that age, too.
>> In fact, i'd say that's the major reason for child learning rates.
>> Remember, a preexistant event schema can aid in learning as well.
>> Try getting anything out of an advanced physics course when
>> you've never even done physics 101.
>
> You're pretty much restating my case, albeit in different jargon
>and in a slightly more complex fashion.

really? here i was thinking you said stuff about not having as much data,
and i was saying stuff about
optimal learning periods, two different hypothesis for child learing rates.
You mention
periods later, but here you're basically mentioning a far less substantial
contributer. I
simply sought to place that in perspective, since there are a lot of
factiors that are said
to contribute, but concepts like optimal learning periods and synaptic
pruning
(dopiest term in contemporary psyc) have a more substantial basis.

Often the idea of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' has less to do
with
learning and cognitive processing, and more to do with the way different
professions comunicate. Have you tried to teach a housewife computer usage
in a housewife's terms? Usually another member of the same social subgroup
has way more luck.

>Sounds like you've done some
>interesting reading in this area. Adults have existing patterns of
>information, which often aids them but sometimes hinders them.

>Children (starting from infancy) have less information, which often
>makes them more open to new experiences (having fewer expectations of
>fitting the new experience into a, as you put it, "preexistant event
>schema").
>

. . .which often aids them but sometimes hinders them. . a lot.

>> In fact, thw genre convention of a mutent seem sunfortunate in this-
>> speaking psudoscientifically, if mutants do manifest during
>> puberty, then likely they've missed the best time to learn to
>> use their powers, unless the critical period for such things was much
>> later than is usual, as is suggested by a recent comparison of
>> magneto and that clone of his.
>
> I never did really like this genre, but then again, how much fun
>would it be to write a comic about a super-powered toddler (unless the
>toddler were more the plot device for a comic about a parent or
>guardian of a super-powered toddler).
>

there was a flash anual that touched on this. an alternate future
wally west who's son could move quickly, but didn't have the
heat-resistant aura. It was basically like a handicap to him.

>Steven J. Owens
>puff@netcom.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:57:20 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

Okies, here's the elementals i've decided on so far.
Put simply these are conceptual elementals, for
reasons relating to who the masters are and why
the two groups are fighting, but all the suggestions
were geat, thanks. If anyone's especially interested
in the bizzare nature of the situation, drop me a line
off the list. Things are not as they appear.

Here's my current lineup:

Blight: Pollution, mutation, and other concepts of corruption,
representing negligence, and an enduring nature caused by
the cycle of pollution.

"well, there goes another rainforest. . sorry *snicker*"

whenever he dies, he reforms out of some kind of
pollution and ruin the fight causes. So if they blow him up,
he'll reform as a cloud of acrid smoke. If they trash a building,
he'll become a rubble monster. The trick is to wipe the floor
with him without causing collateral damage.

Deviance: Deviance represents the fraying at the edges of
contemporary society, the acts that peolpe seem to think
didn't used to happen but do now.

"what's become of the world today? I HAVE! AHAHAHAHAHA!"

His powers will be psycic, he manipulates those nearby
into psychotic, nhilistic homocide, and his lair can be located if the
team follows him into the most run-down, drug-wased hellhole
in the urban sprawl.

Progress: Progress is the developer, buisnman, and
exploiter. He's there to get maximum gain from
minimum effort, and the ends ALWAYS justify the means.

(After taking down one of the heroes)
"NOW we're making progress!"

His powers are actually adaptive by nature,
as the fight starts he'll be a reasonably normal
guy in a nice suit and will likely have tried to
entangle the heroes in some kind of plot
before the battle. As the battle continues he'll
'make progress'- begin to adapt to their attacks, and as he does
he physically changes, until he'll eventually
be twisted, elongate spike-covered blood
red mockery of his former appearance.

Firepower: Firepower will be the final battle,
simply an immense combat-monster,
also representing industrialism-
the 'bot isn't the attacker, firepower
himself is cyberlinked into a factory
beneath the bay that is churning out
improving variants of the same weapons system.

"Unit 21, moving in"

The idea here is that the heroes, after the three battles,
will say 'hmm, i wonder what element's next'- and a giant tank
with legs will drop through the roof of their base. Eventually they'll
realise that they aren't fighting 'weapons tech', but rather the
'military-industrial complex', and wonder about where the
'industrial' bit is.

Thanks for the help, list.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 07:59:50 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

At 05:57 PM 5/6/99 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>Okies, here's the elementals i've decided on so far.
>Put simply these are conceptual elementals, for
>reasons relating to who the masters are and why
>the two groups are fighting, but all the suggestions
>were geat, thanks. If anyone's especially interested
>in the bizzare nature of the situation, drop me a line
>off the list. Things are not as they appear.
>
>Here's my current lineup:
>
>Blight: Pollution, mutation, and other concepts of corruption,
>Deviance: Deviance represents the fraying at the edges of
>Progress: Progress is the developer, buisnman, and
>Firepower: Firepower will be the final battle,


Actually, it sounds more like the four horsemen than the four
elements, but as long as it makes for fun play, it'll work.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:31:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

On Wed, 5 May 1999, Lance Dyas wrote:
> > On Wed, 5 May 1999, Steven J. Owens wrote:
> >
> > > Ever tried to teach a 55-year-old housewife how to use a
> > > computer? Not to knock 55-year-old-housewives; pick any demographic
> > > that wouldn't have been exposed to complex technological systems;
>
> Sounds like two more votes for "Set in ones Ways" being a standard aged
> personality disadvantage.

Just to provide some conflicting data points:

Both of my parents are over 50, and both have nicer computers than I do -
and they use them on a daily basis, at home and in their businesses. My
mother is college educated, my father is not.

On the other hand, my grandmother, although she owns a computer, doesn't
quite seem to have the hang of it.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 07:42:57 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

> Second, oldrer people learn new things less because they aren't
> in the phase where their norms are set down,

this means the same to me as being "Set in Ones Ways" It is usually
manifest in the older crowd, whether its a stage of development like
you seem to be differentiating or a process whereby ones thinking becomes
"crystalline" alah Piaget

Whether norms become NORMS due to the influence of experience
"alah the progression of time modified by details of that experience"
or due to a progression of developmental stages.

It seems to me this can still be simulated in the game in much the same
manner.... and maybe that is the whole crux.


> like kiddies are.
> It takes longer, especially if new concepts are placed in a context and
> jargon unfamiliar to them.

Jargon is just another form of a "preexistant event schema"

You know its pretty obvious such things can both aid or hinder

The peiceing through larger amounts of experience which may aid or hinder "takes
longer
even when it means in a particular case you may get more out of the new input
over a larger
amount of time WOW kids think faster...not more accurately... Voila' HERO has it
backwards

Mental Quickness ... as in HEROS definition of INT is after all where this
argument came from

> Often the idea of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' has less to do
> with
> learning and cognitive processing, and more to do with the way different
> professions comunicate. Have you tried to teach a housewife computer usage
> in a housewife's terms? Usually another member of the same social subgroup
> has way more luck.

My wife seams like she would be far better at teaching other housewifes about
computer
tech.

When Older people seem to have difficulty with learning new things it seems one
reason is because they
are no longer willing to be very bad at doing things... embarassed more by
falling down and falling
down and falling down when learning to skate backwards for instance. I'm 35
and have let ego
interfere in this fashion. I can skate forwards and perform lots of fun Dance
like steps, and ocassionally try to get backwards skating figured out.

> >> In fact, thw genre convention of a mutent seem sunfortunate in this-
> >> speaking psudoscientifically, if mutants do manifest during
> >> puberty, then likely they've missed the best time to learn to
> >> use their powers, unless the critical period for such things was much
> >> later than is usual, as is suggested by a recent comparison of
> >> magneto and that clone of his.
> >
> > I never did really like this genre, but then again, how much fun
> >would it be to write a comic about a super-powered toddler (unless the
> >toddler were more the plot device for a comic about a parent or
> >guardian of a super-powered toddler).
> >
> there was a flash anual that touched on this. an alternate future
> wally west who's son could move quickly, but didn't have the
> heat-resistant aura. It was basically like a handicap to him.
>
> >Steven J. Owens
> >puff@netcom.com
> >

Using the optimal learning period model on mutants handles this quite
easily "Mutant" optimal learning period can be much later and much more
extended than human, even though they otherwise think like humans
.... this would make more of them very powerful intellectually.

Lance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:46:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> At 05:57 PM 5/6/99 +1000, happyelf wrote:
> >Here's my current lineup:
> >
> >Blight: Pollution, mutation, and other concepts of corruption,
> >Deviance: Deviance represents the fraying at the edges of
> >Progress: Progress is the developer, buisnman, and
> >Firepower: Firepower will be the final battle,
>
> Actually, it sounds more like the four horsemen than the four
> elements, but as long as it makes for fun play, it'll work.

I was wondering about the Horsemen idea a few messages back...then again,
if the Elements make the world, then their opposites should be things that
destroy the world.

What are they going to do for an encore? The Deadly Sins?

Hero: "Say...aren't there supposed to be /seven/ of you guys?"
Pride: "Yeah, but Sloth decided to sleep in, and...hey, where's Gluttony?"
Rage: "Uh...remember that Chinese restaurant with the lunch buffet we
passed on the way here?"

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 08:49:31 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.

At 07:46 AM 5/6/99 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>> Actually, it sounds more like the four horsemen than the four
>> elements, but as long as it makes for fun play, it'll work.
>
>I was wondering about the Horsemen idea a few messages back...then again,
>if the Elements make the world, then their opposites should be things that
>destroy the world.
>
>What are they going to do for an encore? The Deadly Sins?
>
>Hero: "Say...aren't there supposed to be /seven/ of you guys?"
>Pride: "Yeah, but Sloth decided to sleep in, and...hey, where's Gluttony?"
>Rage: "Uh...remember that Chinese restaurant with the lunch buffet we
> passed on the way here?"


Uh oh ... I smell a new thread!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 99 03:12:16 PDT
From: "Richard O'Marro" <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?

- ----------
> At 04:36 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> >At 03:42 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> >>Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
> >>
> >> What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
> >>
> >> ...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?
> >>
> >
> >"limited DEX"? In what way is it limited?
> >I always assumed that DEX *was* your reflexes.
> >What am I missing?
> >
>
> Agility, hand-eye coordination, and probably a few other things. A
> character with Lightning Reflexes will react quickly, but won't be a
> natural acrobat (no bonus to DEX rolls for maintaining balance, etc.) =
and
> isn't necessarily more accurate in hitting or shooting. At least, that'=
s
> what I recall of the limitation.
>
> - Bill Svitavsky
Ummmmmmmmm It's that SPD then and not DEX?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:22:31 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?

>> >I always assumed that DEX *was* your reflexes.
>> >What am I missing?
>> >
>> Agility, hand-eye coordination, and probably a few other things. A
>> character with Lightning Reflexes will react quickly, but won't be a
>> natural acrobat (no bonus to DEX rolls for maintaining balance, etc.)
and
>> isn't necessarily more accurate in hitting or shooting. At least,
that's
>> what I recall of the limitation.
>>
> Ummmmmmmmm It's that SPD then and not DEX?

Within a phase, characters normally act in DEX order, Lightning Reflexes
lets a character jump ahead in the line (so to speak). It doesn't affect
how many phases a character gets; a SPD 5 ranged-attack specialist could
buy LR till it's coming out his ears, but he won't get any extra attacks
out of it, and he won't be any more accurate because of it. If his DEX
plus his LR is higher than his opponent's DEX, though, he'll go first
whenever the two of them have the same action phase.

It gets a stop sign because it would be easy to abuse if the GM has set a
maximum DEX value for the game -- if starting characters aren't supposed
to have anything higher than a 30 DEX, a player could buy 27 DEX ("See!
I'm under the limit!") and +6 LR and have the reaction time of a 33 DEX.

Leah

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