Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 328

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 3:34 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #328


champ-l-digest Sunday, May 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 328



In this issue:

Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Superman weaknesses
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks
Alchemist
Re: Superman weaknesses
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:51:29 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?

>And that's the point. The New Millenium setting has some visual look
things
>evocative of that, but is otherwise nothing like it. This sort of
response
>is why I say I think the response to the setting is people seeing what
they
>want (or rather don't) want to see in it. It may not be a Silver Age
>setting, but on the whole, it's hardly Dark and Gritty.

Ah. Okay. Perhaps you have a point. Another reason that I didn't jump
on the Fuzion System was that basically it didn't do anything for that
HSR didn't already do.

I did borrow large chunks of the Bubble Gum Crisis world book to run
against the Supers down at Omega Squad. Once I had the boomers tweaked
right, They made fiece and scary opponents for the supers to work up a
sweat knocking down.


Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]

Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-

http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:45:03 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>>That's a very clever hack. I have a question- You say "cost changes"
as
>>if it's a bad thing. Why would it be bad to snmply say "STR now costs 2
>>CP per level"?
>
>Because it would force a rewrite of every single character in existence,
and
>immediately make all previous works "obsolete" (at least in the minds of
many
>players, though of course it'd be easy to use them).

I behg your pardon! I meant as a house rule!!! I was not proposing a
change in the HSR. I like'em fine the way they are. And I haven't even
seen HSR 5.0 yet...


> Also, I think the game
>balances better with STR at 1 point per point. I disagree with the
simplistic
>analysis that just looks at figured stats; there's a lot more going on
in the
>game that must be balanced against the cost of STR. Making that cost
change
>would require a great deal of additional work throughout the system.
Which we
>already decided not to do, since the vast majority of the feedback we
>received told us that players did not want major changes; they felt the
>system balanced fine as it is.

A lovely argument that I agree with

>If you want to see our thinking on more major changes, Fuzion is where
we
>went through and made changes of that nature.
>
> Steve Peterson, Hero Games

I dig. I still like GURPS better as a lead in to HSR. They always told
me that first you start with the lightweight stuff and before you know it
you're hooked the hard stuff.

But did I listen? NOOOO!


Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]

Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-

http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/


___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:56:10 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>Most of which don't exist in the rules, you'll notice. When they do,
I'll
>include it in my evaluation. As it is, that's nice for your campaign,
but
>as written, 2 per point is still overpriced. In fact, even with your
rule I
>think it's overpriced in most settings.

Do you not approve of house rules and making your own home built
modifications to the HSR?

Because if there came a system that was tuned specifically to your
campains right out of the box, it probably wouldn't fit my campaign.

So we have to change thing, interpret things, and alter things. No system
is perfect out of the box.

My major change to HSR has been to adopt certain GURPS-like usages and
interpretations to the use iof HSR. But veryyone will have their own.

I do not see this as a bad thing.


Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]

Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-

http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:12:53 -0700
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: Superman weaknesses

>At 10:21 AM 5/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Superman is like a living solar battery; he doesn't immediately lose
>>>all his powers when under a red sun, but they don't get replenished
>>>except under a yellow sun. A couple of years ago a sun-eater completely
>>
>>>blocked out all the Sun's radiation, and Superman ran out of juice in a
>>few
>>>days.
>>>Of course, he was really, really busy those few days...
>>>--_
>>>Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
>>
>However, in The Dark Knight Returns a nuclear blast filled the air with
>dust and Superman came crashing down out of the shy and began withering
>away visably. So your milage may vary. Myself, I always figured it had
>more to do with radiation than just light.
>
>
But in Kingdom Come Supes gets nuked dead on and is just fine, I figure
it's a writer thing.

Max Callahan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>
>In a message dated 5/7/99 8:21:38 PM, shaw@caprica.com writes:
>
>>The problem with that is that at that point Consitution is probably too
>>expensive. Most of what it does for you is give you figured stats; 2 points
>>a point is too expensive just to make you harder to stun.
>
>I think that it's a reasonable tradeoff. What will happen is that there will
>be some "evolution" with CON; after getting Stunned too many times, you'll
>see it bought up more by characters tired of being taken out of the fight too
>easily. Anyway, for those really concerned about costs of stats, this should
>be less of an issue than getting a "bargain" for STR or DEX.

At that point it'd probably be more econmic to just buy more _defense_.
After all, 2 points spent on that (one on PD and one on ED) will make you
one harder to stun in most cases, and it allows you to take less actual stun
to boot.

Fixing something that's too cheap in a way that just makes something else
too expensive is not an improvement in my opinion.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:11:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>>Most of which don't exist in the rules, you'll notice. When they do,
>I'll
>>include it in my evaluation. As it is, that's nice for your campaign,
>but
>>as written, 2 per point is still overpriced. In fact, even with your
>rule I
>>think it's overpriced in most settings.
>
>Do you not approve of house rules and making your own home built
>modifications to the HSR?

I don't approve of bringing them into general discussions of rules problems
as defenses of those problems. At that point any rules problem can be blown
off because someone's got a houserule to fix it to suit them somewhere. But
that has nothing to do with the game as written, which is the common ground.

>
>Because if there came a system that was tuned specifically to your
>campains right out of the box, it probably wouldn't fit my campaign.

Please see the phrase 'that's nice for your campaign' in the paragraph at
the top. It means just that. It also means it's essentially a useless
response when dealing with the rules in general, which is what I'm addressing.

>
>So we have to change thing, interpret things, and alter things. No system
>is perfect out of the box.

And no system can be discussed intelligently if you try to talk about every
set of house rules for it in existance at the same time. All the common
ground you have is the published rules.

>
>My major change to HSR has been to adopt certain GURPS-like usages and
>interpretations to the use iof HSR. But veryyone will have their own.
>
>I do not see this as a bad thing.

I don't either. I just don't see it as relevant to my point. As written in
the Hero System Rulebook, if you take off the figured stats, CON is too
expensive at 2 points per point of CON.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:13:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?

>>And that's the point. The New Millenium setting has some visual look
>things
>>evocative of that, but is otherwise nothing like it. This sort of
>response
>>is why I say I think the response to the setting is people seeing what
>they
>>want (or rather don't) want to see in it. It may not be a Silver Age
>>setting, but on the whole, it's hardly Dark and Gritty.
>
>Ah. Okay. Perhaps you have a point. Another reason that I didn't jump
>on the Fuzion System was that basically it didn't do anything for that
>HSR didn't already do.

Note I wasn't talking about Fuzion, though. I was talking about using the
C:TNM setting for a regular Champions campaign.

------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1999 09:34:50 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks

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* Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> on Sat, 08 May 1999
| I just go with whatever height and weight fit the character and don't
| worry about it. (For instance, I'm running a brick in a Golden Age
| Champs game who's 4 feet tall, 135 pounds, and STR 40.)

Ditto. I mean, look at how Superman and Batman are usually drawn: they
clearly have similar physiques, but Superman is immensely stronger. It is
something that is usually ignored in a 4-color world.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 09:54:24 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Alchemist

Hi,
I am starting to work on a Fantasy Campaign and one of the character
Archetypes I am going to have is an Alchemist. I want to run the
Alchemist magic by the group to make sure I am not missing anything.

Alchemical potions, oils, and whatever must have:

- --1/2 Requires Skill Roll
- -1 1/4 OAF: Expendable, Hard to recover.
+1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.
+1/4 Usable by self or one other.

Now, I didn't include Independent because if the character wants to sell
a potion he should't have to loose points.

I also didn't include charges. Why..Well the way I figure it if the
person has Charges then he has a maximum on number of a certain amount
of potions that he can make. I am hoping that I can limit the number of
potions a person makes by using the OAF, Expendable limitation.

What does everyone think....do you see any holes?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 08:10:18 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Superman weaknesses

>>>>Superman is like a living solar battery; he doesn't immediately lose
>>>>all his powers when under a red sun, but they don't get replenished
>>>>except under a yellow sun. A couple of years ago a sun-eater completely
>>>
>>>>blocked out all the Sun's radiation, and Superman ran out of juice in a
>>>few days. Of course, he was really, really busy those few days...

>>However, in The Dark Knight Returns a nuclear blast filled the air with
>>dust and Superman came crashing down out of the shy and began withering
>>away visably. So your milage may vary. Myself, I always figured it had
>>more to do with radiation than just light.
>>
>But in Kingdom Come Supes gets nuked dead on and is just fine, I figure
>it's a writer thing.

OK In Kingdom Come, Waid points out that Superman is at the height of his
invulnerability, if it was all on the same continuum of time, it would
happen years AFTER Dark Knight Returns. Second, the bomb used in Dark
Knight Returns was a different weapon, it was an EMP bomb that used a nuke
for its ignition, and as such probably affected him differently than usual.
The DKR nuke was a direct, totally ground zero hit, while in Kingdom Come
he was a goodly distance from ground zero (which apparently vaporized
Captain Marvel, nearly as tough as Superman). However, that all said,
Superman sucked energy from the plants and such around him, Im not sure how
that works, I just think it was something Miller was doing symbolically, as
earth's protector, showing him to be inhuman etc.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1999 12:20:23 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

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* redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) on Sun, 09 May 1999
My knee-jerk reaction is to take a page from Palladium Fantasy and relegate
the Alchemist to NPCdom.

| --1/2 Requires Skill Roll

Requires Skill Roll is for using a power. I do not see why my big, burly
fighter would need to make a Magic Skill roll when drinking a potion that
increases his Strength by 5.

| -1 1/4 OAF: Expendable, Hard to recover.

Ish... fork over the money and you have a replacement. Not hard to recover
at all, especially if your friendly neighborhood alchemist happens to be a
PC.

| +1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.

Using a power in a Focus does not require trigger. This is a waste of
points.

| +1/4 Usable by self or one other.

If you are using Focus, then you do not really need this, either.

[...]
| What does everyone think....do you see any holes?

If no Charges, where does the END for the powers come from?
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:40:52 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

>My knee-jerk reaction is to take a page from Palladium Fantasy and relegate
>the Alchemist to NPCdom.


The Alchemist is a good PC class. Imagine the adventures a good GM can run
for a PC Alchemist searching for spell components. Your looking at this as
an after-effect character pushing around a cart full of bottles. That's not
what he/she is. This character would go out, get components, make the
potions and then sell or give them to other PC/NPC's.

>| --1/2 Requires Skill Roll
>
>Requires Skill Roll is for using a power. I do not see why my big, burly
fighter would need to make a Magic Skill roll when drinking a potion that
increases his Strength by 5.


The Skill roll is required when the potion is made. The trigger advantage
allows the person using it to do so with the skill roll.

>| -1 1/4 OAF: Expendable, Hard to recover.
>
>Ish... fork over the money and you have a replacement. Not hard to recover
at all, especially if your friendly neighborhood alchemist happens to be a
PC.


Things like Dragon blood, Elf skin, etc. would be hard to get/recover.
Imagine having to go into a deep cave to get bat guano. It would be very
messy and possibly dangerous.

>| +1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.
>
>Using a power in a Focus does not require trigger. This is a waste of
>points.


Once again the Trigger is to allow the potion to be used with out the skill
rolls etc.

>| +1/4 Usable by self or one other.
>
>If you are using Focus, then you do not really need this, either.


You do because a focus can be personal or universal. Only and independant
item is truely free form its owner.

>| What does everyone think....do you see any holes?


I think your viewing this character under a miss conception. Perhaps to
much AD&D in your past?

>If no Charges, where does the END for the powers come from?


The End is paid by the spell caster when he makes the potion and sets up the
trigger. Don't you know how triggers and delayed effects work?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:44:55 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Alchemist

>My knee-jerk reaction is to take a page from Palladium Fantasy and relegate
the Alchemist to NPCdom.

The Alchemist is a good PC class. Imagine the adventures a good GM can run
for a PC Alchemist searching for spell components. Your looking at this as
an after-effect character pushing around a cart full of bottles. That's not
what he/she is. This character would go out, get components, make the
potions and then sell or give them to other PC/NPC's.

>| --1/2 Requires Skill Roll
>
>Requires Skill Roll is for using a power. I do not see why my big, burly
fighter would need to make a Magic Skill roll when drinking a potion that
increases his Strength by 5.

The Skill roll is required when the potion is made. The trigger advantage
allows the person using it to do so without the skill roll.

>| -1 1/4 OAF: Expendable, Hard to recover.
>
>Ish... fork over the money and you have a replacement. Not hard to recover
at all, especially if your friendly neighborhood alchemist happens to be a
PC.

Things like Dragon blood, Elf skin, etc. would be hard to get/recover.
Imagine having to go into a deep cave to get bat guano. It would be very
messy and possibly dangerous.

>| +1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.
>
>Using a power in a Focus does not require trigger. This is a waste of
>points.

Once again the Trigger is to allow the potion to be used with out the skill
rolls etc.

>| +1/4 Usable by self or one other.
>
>If you are using Focus, then you do not really need this, either.

You do, because a focus can be personal or universal. Only and independent
item is truly free form its owner.

>| What does everyone think....do you see any holes?

I think your viewing this character under a miss conception. Perhaps to
much AD&D in your past?

>If no Charges, where does the END for the powers come from?

The End is paid by the spell caster when he makes the potion and sets up the
trigger. Don't you know how triggers and delayed effects work?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:56:21 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alchemist

In a message dated 5/9/99, 10:54:30 AM, redbf@ldd.net writes:
<< Alchemical potions, oils, and whatever must have:

- --1/2 Requires Skill Roll
- -1 1/4 OAF: Expendable, Hard to recover.
+1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.
+1/4 Usable by self or one other.
>>

If it is a foci, does it have to have the "usable by self or one other"?
Unless
the foci is "PERSONAL", it seems to me that once the Alchemist gave the
potion/stone/whatever to someone else, they would be able to use it IF
they knew how to set off the trigger.

if i'm wrong about this, let me know.
andy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 12:11:28 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

>If it is a foci, does it have to have the "usable by self or one other"?
>Unless the foci is "PERSONAL", it seems to me that once the Alchemist gave
the potion/stone/whatever to someone else, they would be able to use it IF
they knew how to set off the trigger.

That's always an iffy thing. In my Fantasy Hero games a personally created
focus cannot be used by someone else unless it is bought independent or
usable by other.

What you really have here is a wizard, casting a spell and putting a trigger
on it. The trigger is drinking it, or rubbing it on etc. Trigger is
usually only used on damaging items such as the exploding mine, etc. I
would think that the UBO is added so that non-damaging powers could be given
to another character.

The UBO is there because what you have is a PC giving other PC's powers.
The special effect is just that it's a potion bottle. If the wizard casted
a barkskin on another PC, but made him hold a piece of oak, would you
require the caster to by the armor/force field as usable by other. You
probably would, even though there is a focus of a piece of oak involved.

------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1999 13:26:22 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

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* Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net> on Sun, 09 May 1999
| The Alchemist is a good PC class. Imagine the adventures a good GM can run
| for a PC Alchemist searching for spell components.

Imagine how annoyed everyone else will be playing second fiddle to the PC
alchemist's frequent quests. No matter how much you sugar-coat it, some
people will chafe at the idea of having to do all of the work while another
PC reaps all (or at least most) of the reward.

[...]
| The End is paid by the spell caster when he makes the potion and sets up
| the trigger. Don't you know how triggers and delayed effects work?

I know how they work. It is the idea of using Trigger for this that does
not work. Trigger allows you to set up a power with a specific trigger
condition. Allowing it to set multiple instances of the power exactly
duplicates the effect of Time Delay. On the other hand, using Trigger in
this fashion effectively duplicates Charges. I as the would-be GM say
"clever, but nimgyd" to this trick.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1999 14:00:39 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

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* Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net> on Sun, 09 May 1999
| That's always an iffy thing. In my Fantasy Hero games a personally created
| focus cannot be used by someone else unless it is bought independent or
| usable by other.

This makes no sense. A personal Focus can be used by nobody other than the
character what paid the points for it. But something like a potion that
can be used by anyone is by definition not a personal Focus, making Usable
by Others redundant.

And then, when you use UBO, you specify which 'other'. If I buy a potion
from you, I am the 'other'. I can give the potion to a friend of mine (it
is a Focus), but he cannot use it; only you or I can. Or if it is stolen
from me, it is useless to the thief.

Your power constructs really do not model the special effects.

[...]
| The UBO is there because what you have is a PC giving other PC's powers.

Well, if this is a common occourance, the recipient PC is expected to pay
for those powers, unless those powers qualify as common equipment. If they
are common equipment (which they might be given a PC alchemist), they have
no actual point cost. That is, if arrows that almost anyone can own and
use cost nothing, a simple healing potion that almost anyone can own and
use likewise costs nothing. Would you require a PC weaponsmith to buy RKA
with Usable by Others and Triggers and such so he can make and use arrows
for himself and his friends? If not, why are you treating the PC alchemist
differently?

This is why I recomend making the alchemist exclusively an NPC character
type. It saves you (the GM) many headaches of this sort.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:02:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

On Fri, 7 May 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 05:38 PM 5/7/1999 EDT, Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> >Id have to say that is a fantastic formula. Im printing out a copy of that
> >for refrence. Matches up with most every team i can envision, except gen13.
> >
> >Now, stick some powers on there.
>
> >Rebel
>
> A feral type, with high STR and Martial Arts (as opposed to HL's medium
> STR, Martial Arts, and MA Damage Classes), innate defenses, some
> fancy-schmancy sensory powers, and general physical (but not intellectual)
> superiority over HL.

Note that in anime, at least, the Rebel/Other Guy is generally more suave,
cool, and collected than the leader. (Again, Han vs. Luke works well for
the archetypes...)

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1999 14:24:22 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Sun, 09 May 1999
| Note that in anime, at least, the Rebel/Other Guy is generally more suave,
| cool, and collected than the leader. (Again, Han vs. Luke works well for
| the archetypes...)

Except when he's the angry, driven, or angst-ridden type of guy.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

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Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:31:50 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

At 01:02 PM 5/9/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Fri, 7 May 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 05:38 PM 5/7/1999 EDT, Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
>> >Id have to say that is a fantastic formula. Im printing out a copy of
that
>> >for refrence. Matches up with most every team i can envision, except
gen13.
>> >
>> >Now, stick some powers on there.
>>
>> >Rebel
>>
>> A feral type, with high STR and Martial Arts (as opposed to HL's medium
>> STR, Martial Arts, and MA Damage Classes), innate defenses, some
>> fancy-schmancy sensory powers, and general physical (but not intellectual)
>> superiority over HL.
>
>Note that in anime, at least, the Rebel/Other Guy is generally more suave,
>cool, and collected than the leader. (Again, Han vs. Luke works well for
>the archetypes...)

In anime, yes, certainly. My (obviously mistaken) impression was that
Akrizeta was looking for something more classically American, and what I
wrote is how the Americans would do it.
The Five, as being currently posted, is (IMHO) how the Japanese would do
it.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 14:39:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

<snip>
> >> >Rebel
> >> A feral type, with high STR and Martial Arts (as opposed to HL's me=
dium
> >> STR, Martial Arts, and MA Damage Classes), innate defenses, some
> >> fancy-schmancy sensory powers, and general physical (but not intellect=
ual)
> >> superiority over HL.
> >Note that in anime, at least, the Rebel/Other Guy is generally more suav=
e,
> >cool, and collected than the leader. (Again, Han vs. Luke works well fo=
r
> >the archetypes...)
> In anime, yes, certainly. My (obviously mistaken) impression was that
> Akrizeta was looking for something more classically American, and what I
> wrote is how the Americans would do it.
> The Five, as being currently posted, is (IMHO) how the Japanese would =
do
> it.
=09Naito (of the Five) is both "wild" (paralleling feral) and
physically superior to the Handsome Leader. He's also younger, cooler (in
style, not necessarily temperment), and has "deeper issues" regarding his
life and his troubled past (which gives him angst).
=09Naito chooses to use a sword and hand combat, as opposed to the
Handome Leader who uses experience (Overall Skill Levels, OCV based on
Analyze Combat Technique, OCV vs. Dodging), and a gun to get his results.
=09Handsome Leader is 40+, has NCM, =89=BEM=C3
]=F0N=CCVy.T=DADVQ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 14:42:54 -0400
From: "B.C. Holmes" <bcholmes@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 99-05-07 17:48:19 EDT, jeffj@io.com writes:
>
> > This is an old theory called '5 character theory', although the original
> > form I heard it in was: Hero, Other Guy, Big Guy, Chick, and Pet.
> >
> > The 'Pet' is not always a geek, but is almost always a 'comic relief'
> > character. There's also an optional 6th character: the "Mentor'.

How 'bout _Battle of the Planets_:

Hero: Mark
Other Guy: (whatsisname?)
Big Guy: Tiny
Chick: Princess
Pet: Keyop

BCing you
- ----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----
B.C. Holmes http://www.interlog.com/~bcholmes/
"God is an iron"
- Spider Robinson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 14:53:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

On Sun, 9 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
<snip>
>Rebel
>> A feral type, with high STR and Martial Arts (as opposed to HL's medium
>> STR, Martial Arts, and MA Damage Classes), innate defenses, some
>> fancy-schmancy sensory powers, and general physical (but not intellectual)
>> superiority over HL.
> >Note that in anime, at least, the Rebel/Other Guy is generally more suave,
> >cool, and collected than the leader. (Again, Han vs. Luke works well for
> >the archetypes...)
> In anime, yes, certainly. My (obviously mistaken) impression was that
> Akrizeta was looking for something more classically American, and what I
> wrote is how the Americans would do it.
> The Five, as being currently posted, is (IMHO) how the Japanese would do
> it.
Naito (of the Five) is both "wild" (a parallel to feral) and
physically superior to the Handsome Leader. He's also younger and more
contemporary, cooler (in style, not necessarily temperment), and has
"deeper issues" regarding his life and his troubled past (which gives him
more "darkness" and angst).
Naito chooses to use a sword and MA combat, as opposed to the
Handome Leader who uses experience (Overall Skill Levels, OCV based on
Analyze Combat Technique, OCV vs. Dodging), and a revolver to get his
results.
Handsome Leader is 40+, has NCM, used to be in the army, is
extremely honorable and 'good.' He has much more of a tangible past...
scars from bullet wounds and such on his chest and various mementos of
scrapes, a divorced wife, and a recovery from being a depressed, washed up
alcoholic.

I like to parallel the two by thinking if Naito as a young ninja
who is trying to ammend his evil ways, and Handsome Leader as an old
samauri, slightly world weary, but true to his duty...
...able to work together, but not necessarily liking each other.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:54:29 EDT
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alchemist

Hmmm. This is an interesting discussion; perhaps it would help to
focus things if we determined what potions are, how they're made, and how
characters use them. Here's the way I'd describe it all:

1. Potions are liquids which, when drunk, provide certain powers or
abilities to the person drinking them. As an object, a potion is a Focus
(OAF). As a liquid which can easily be spilled, diluted, or spoiled, I'd
call it a Fragile OAF to boot.

2. Potions are brewed by alchemists using all sorts of components, some
difficult/dangerous to acquire, some not so much. In part this depends on
the campaign setting and the specific potion. This sounds more or less like
applying the Expendable modifier to the Focus, to varying degrees depending
upon specifics. I'd call the end result: OAF Fragile (easily spilled or
diluted potion; ingredients may be Expendable to some degree).

3. The person who brews the potion doesn't necessarily have to be the person
using it. For the most part, anyone can drink, and obtain the benefits of, a
potion. To me, this primarily sounds like the Focus is Universal. In some
games the GM might want you to apply Usable By Others to get that sort of
effect, but that doesn't seem necessary to me because of the special effects
involved here. YMMV.

4. There is a limited number of doses of each potion; once they're drunk,
the alchemist has to get more components and brew up another batch. This
sounds like Charges to me.

5. The effects of a potion typically last for a certain period of time
(perhaps a long one). Continuing Charges sounds like the best way to go
here, but for some Constant/Persistent Powers maybe the drinker simply pays
the END for the Power.

6. Brewing up a potion involves a lot of procedures -- throwing ingredients
into a pot, chanting, concentrating, scribbling formulae, and whatnot -- that
drinking the potion does not. The best way to simulate this sort of thing,
IMO, is Delayed Effect. This also limits the number of potions Ye Alchemist
can walk around in the game with (to INT/5 potions, or what have you),
providing a balancing factor.

So, for a Potion of Giant Strength, I'd probably end up with a
description like this:

POTION OF GIANT STRENGTH: +30 STR, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (37 Active Points);
OAF Fragile Expendable (easily spilled or diluted liquid, brewed from giant's
blood and other components which are difficult or expensive to acquire; -1
1/2), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1/4), Concentrate (has 0
DCV while brewing potioni; -1/2), Extra Time (takes minimum of 1 Hour to brew
potion; -2 1/2), Gestures (must make arcane gestures while brewing potion;
- -1/4), Incantations (must incant magical formulae while brewing potion;
- -1/4), Requires An Alchemy Roll (-1/2). Total cost: 5 points.

As always, YMMV, you may have different assumptions than I did, or I
may have overlooked something. Thoughts, comments, suggestions, ideas?

Steve Long

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 14:30:56 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:

> Hmmm. This is an interesting discussion; perhaps it would help to
> focus things if we determined what potions are, how they're made, and how
> characters use them. Here's the way I'd describe it all:
>
> 1. Potions are liquids which, when drunk,

Some potions might be sprinkled over your head or smeared on
your body... or on the appropriate part

> provide certain powers or
> abilities to the person drinking them.

or do they in some sense activate the power in the subject this makes a
difference
particularly in deciding where endurance cost is paid, and in general figuring
out
how to simulate the effect.

> As an object, a potion is a Focus
> (OAF).

> As a liquid which can easily be spilled, diluted, or spoiled, I'd
> call it a Fragile OAF to boot.

>
> 2. Potions are brewed by alchemists using all sorts of components, some
> difficult/dangerous to acquire, some not so much. In part this depends on
> the campaign setting and the specific potion. This sounds more or less like
> applying the Expendable modifier to the Focus, to varying degrees depending
> upon specifics. I'd call the end result: OAF Fragile (easily spilled or
> diluted potion; ingredients may be Expendable to some degree).
>
> 3. The person who brews the potion doesn't necessarily have to be the person
> using it. For the most part, anyone can drink, and obtain the benefits of, a
> potion. To me, this primarily sounds like the Focus is Universal. In some
> games the GM might want you to apply Usable By Others to get that sort of
> effect, but that doesn't seem necessary to me because of the special effects
> involved here. YMMV.

I think Hero mechanics in general require you make the mechanics conform
if you make it useable by others.....Would this make the potions so they were
personalized to the other for whom you brewed it (this is in effect means the
power is under your control targeted even if the effect is delaid), which is
actually quite
interesting. Kind of like saying the potion is specific to the biology/metabolism
of
the ingester.


> 4. There is a limited number of doses of each potion; once they're drunk,
> the alchemist has to get more components and brew up another batch.

Question is can he brew another batch before the last has been used? This is a
possible stumbling block.


> This
> sounds like Charges to me.
>

yep I'd agree

>
> 5. The effects of a potion typically last for a certain period of time
> (perhaps a long one). Continuing Charges sounds like the best way to go
> here, but for some Constant/Persistent Powers maybe the drinker simply pays
> the END for the Power.
>

Either seems reasonable... I think of potions which are drunk as activating
a power in the subject rather than making the effect themselves, other
applications
might function differently, for instance smear this potion on your skin to get an

armor effect.. may actually create the effect itself?

>
> 6. Brewing up a potion involves a lot of procedures -- throwing ingredients

> into a pot, chanting, concentrating, scribbling formulae, and whatnot -- that
> drinking the potion does not. The best way to simulate this sort of thing,
> IMO, is Delayed Effect. This also limits the number of potions Ye Alchemist
> can walk around in the game with (to INT/5 potions, or what have you),
> providing a balancing factor.
>
> So, for a Potion of Giant Strength, I'd probably end up with a
> description like this:
>
> POTION OF GIANT STRENGTH: +30 STR, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (37 Active Points);
> OAF Fragile Expendable (easily spilled or diluted liquid, brewed from giant's
> blood and other components which are difficult or expensive to acquire; -1
> 1/2), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1/4), Concentrate (has 0
> DCV while brewing potioni; -1/2), Extra Time (takes minimum of 1 Hour to brew
> potion; -2 1/2), Gestures (must make arcane gestures while brewing potion;
> -1/4), Incantations (must incant magical formulae while brewing potion;
> -1/4), Requires An Alchemy Roll (-1/2). Total cost: 5 points.
>
> As always, YMMV, you may have different assumptions than I did, or I
> may have overlooked something. Thoughts, comments, suggestions, ideas?
>
> Steve Long

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