Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 32c

Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:28 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #32

champ-l-digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 032



In this issue:

Re: Power Questions
Re: What language is Hero? (was Re: Possession?)
Re: Expanded gestures and incantations
Re: Did you have to do that?!? (A Question rears it's ugly head)
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
Re: Breadth vs. Depth
Re: Everyimmortal skills
Re: "Lab" skills question
Re: Cumulative Power Frameworks
Re: Followers/Vechiles/Automatons/AI in a VPP
Re: Expanded gestures and incantations
Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
Re: Automatons
Re: Anglo-HERO (Re: San Angelo Opinions)
Re: Everyimmortal skills [long]
Re: Breadth vs. Depth
Re: Building the immortal.
Re: THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Power Questions

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, qts wrote:

> >Creating Solid Objects: The character can concentrate and eventually
> >produce a solid object. I'm thinking Transform, Major, Cumulative, Limted
> >Class of Objects (simple technological devices). Limitations to include
> >Extra Time, Concentrate, No Range and Activation.
> >
> >Now, how do people feel about this sort of power application? The
> >character could summon things like flashlights, a baseball bat, a handgun
> >and other 'simple items'. Do people feel this is an abuse of Transform?
> >If not, should I use the Body listing in the Champions book to determine
> >how long it takes to create something? If this sort of power *is*
> >abusive, I presume a gadget Power pool is the way to go.
>
> Is the 'solid object' not just a SFX - Change Environment, HA, RKA
> respectively for your examples?

Becuase you can't use CE to create damaging effects. And I presume the
characte can create more than just the three examples listed. The
character can create a variety of items. Handcuffs, pens, possibly food,
silverware, maybe a radio stuff like that.

> >Mass Mind Control: If you have an Area of Effect Mind Control and use Mind
> >Scanning to locate a mind to affect, then you should be able to hit
> >everyone in the Radius of Effect even though you didn't locate these minds
> >in the first place?
>
> You don't use Mind Scan.

Pardon? What does that mean?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:38:04 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: What language is Hero? (was Re: Possession?)

Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:

> opal@technologist.com writes:
> >Filksinger wrote:
> >> I have thought of the HERO system as resembling programming for some
> time.
> >>
> >> If it is C++, is Fuzion BASIC?
> >>
>
> >Pascal, maybe.
>
> >I guess D&D would be COBOL.
>
> O.K. guys, if you're going to play this game, let's get it right: Everyone
> knows that Wizards of the Coast is Microsoft, which means that AD&D is
> Visual Basic.
>

VB is definitely not as advanced as AD&D. VB is more like Tic Tac Toe or
Battle Masters. simple and easy to learn but worthless after the second or
third use. AD&D is more like MS Office, lots of bells and whistles but the
underlying product is so bad it just can't be saved no matter how much money
and effert you pump into it. Yet it remains number one in sales since all the
newbies use it.

> Which would make you think that Hero is Macintosh, using your choice of
> system, but that's not quite right either.
>

That would make fuzion equivelent to Linux since they are both free in their
most basic forms and you pay of the additions.

> Hero is FORTH. It comes with the barest of operating system and
> commands--and practically no high level pieces, but you can write anything
> you want with it. The longer you use it, the more productive it becomes,
> because for your own purposes, your code is just like operating system
> code. It will model almost any specialized endeavor. And a small, but
> ecletic group of people use it. (All based on a _very_ limited
> understanding of FORTH, but that's what it is supposed to be like.)
>
> <silly grin the whole time>
>

Hero is FORTH has a definite ring of truth. I would just prefer to see hero in
the Smalltalk, Ovjective C, Java linage since it gives Hero a much brighter
future. FORTH will never die nor will it take over the Java is.

> Steven Mitchell
> mdmitche@advicom.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:40:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Expanded gestures and incantations

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, qts wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 05:02:58 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, qts wrote:
> >> >Cannot Move In Phase When Power Is Used (-1/4) for especially cumbersome
> >> >spells where upon failure could result in a disasterous result.
> >>
> >> That's just Extra Time: Full Phase
> > The character, if trying to make a half-move before using a power
> >with this Limitation, or taking KB or KD in the same Phase before he gets
> >to use his power, he should suffer substantial minuses to hit his target
> >(at least -3), and at the GM's option, may even be injured with his own
> >attack.
>
> Nope: if he gets hit, the spell fails to go off. If he can't move for
> the whole phase then he gets ET: Full Phase
Actually, this is just a paraphrased flaw from Dark Champions.
> >> >Cannot Use Targeting With Spell (-1/2) for speels that are so complex,
> >> >their casting takes precidence over aiming.
> >>
> >> How is this actually a limitation? If it's an attack spell, you need to
> >> target it; if it isn't you don't.
> > The character cannot "call shots" against hit locations or
> >otherwise try to hit one specific location or target.
> -0 Limitation.
Also, a paraphrased flaw from Dark Champions.
> >> >...and the ever popular Restrainable (-1/2) for spells that require
> >> >complex but easily restrainable somantic components.
> >> Oh no, that's plain Gestures.
> >
> > Actually, for the cost, Restrainable is a much more cost efficent Lim.
> >Gestures indicates that you would need to make obvious gestures, the power
> >will not work if grabbed, the power will not turn on if attacked during
> >gesturing, -1/4 for turing on, or -1/2 for constant. Restrainable is not
> >necessarily obvious, does noy work (normally) if grabbed or entangled, but
> >may be used if attacked. Restrainable may also be used as part of the
> >attack roll, unlike Gestures.
>
> Restrainable isn't a standard limitation.
What makes it 'non-standard'?

- -+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
- -=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Did you have to do that?!? (A Question rears it's ugly head)

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:

>
> > I believe that that is totally illegal not to mention massively abusive.
>
> ...the only reason I brought the Follower in a VPP up is because
> I'm creating a character who carries a number of robots with him that
> changes every adventure. All of them are very different.

I can see that sort of effect, but in a Mulitpower? You pay a reduced
rate for the Follower (what? 1/5 points, base of 20?) and then get a 1/10
Ultraslot cost? No way!

> In 'Underworld Enemies' there is a listing as follows for the
> villian _Idiot King_ on page 14:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cost Powers
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 267 | 200 Point Mastermind Power Pool: Can be used for Followers
> (Thugs), Vechiles, Bases, skills and powers appropiate fro his schemes.
> Only change between adventures (-1/2)
>
> ...is this an throwback to an earlier edition? A fluke? Anyone
> care to comment?

There used to be the Mastermind Option, which was a 50 point power that
allowed the character to use buy bases, thugs and vehicles equal to his
point total. This idea was brought back in Golden Age of Champs. This
works better, as the character pays the real cost of the power, not a
reduced cost, as your Multipower suggestion would allow.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:40:36 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons

Remnant wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons
>
> >No I am not. A 15D6 EB with the special effect of electricity is just a
> little
> >less deadly then a 5D6 RKA with the special effect of electricity. The
> >difference is that the RKA is a High Amperage attack while the EB is a High
> >Voltage attack. Amperage is the force behind the electricity, which is
> what
> >classifies it as a killing atttack. This why a Taser is not a killing
> attack
> >since it is extremely low amperage, so they don't do any physical damage to
> the
> >target.
>
> Sorry to disagree but while I can accept that Voltage does stun and that
> Amperage does body, I can't accept that a high voltage attack _must_ be a
> _normal_ damage attack, and that a high amperage attack _must_ be a
> _killing_ attack. The only significant difference between a normal attack
> and a killing attack is whether or not they are defended against by
> resistant defenses only or not and the killing attack stun lotto.
>
> Voltage is actually the _force_ of electricity. That's why voltage is also
> called EMF or Electro Motive Force. Amperage or Current is actually based
> on the number of electrons that flow per time.
>
> If you want to accurately represent the way electricity behaves you are
> going to have to make it NND or AVLD, because the only defenses that will
> help you against electricity are insulated or grounded-conductive ones. You
> could also put user defined limitations on Stun Drains or various mental
> attacks.
>

In the human body, the amperage is what severely damages tissues by causing
electrical burns. Voltage passes through the body without causing near the
damage, but does tend to shut down the nervous system. Upping the amperage
causes more severe damage. Upping the voltage knocks a person out longer. It
certainly looks like the amperage is doing the killing effect not the voltage.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:27:38 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Breadth vs. Depth

Message text written by Steve Peterson, Hero Games:
>>Now here's another question: Should we do more cities in depth, or
areas of the world, or should we (instead) present characters, story seeds,
gadgets and such? (I know, you're gonna say "Both!", but our authors need
to
decide what to tackle). For instance, should we do a city book on LA or New
York, or take that same effort and put it into more detail about villain
groups, or more detail on Bay City, for instance?<<

One city is all I need information on, and if you look at most comics,
that's all they ever focus on anyway. So, I would say that characters and
story seeds should be much higher priority than detailing yet another city.
I can never have enough "Enemies" style books, and I'd really like to see
more books in the style of Champions Presents/Challenges for Champions,
where you get several adventures for the price of one book. While
Challenges for Champions may not contain the best adventures (some are
good, some not so good), getting 10 adventures for the price of 1 book is
certainly tasty. Sure, they don't have the detail of a full-blown module,
but it has plenty for me to work into my campaign.

Frankly, I don't understand why one campaign would need more than one
intricately detailed city. If your PCs are globetrotters, then they won't
stay in any city long enough to notice the detail, so why buy books for all
those cities? If they're not globetrotters, then more than likely they
will spend almost all their time within the limits of the campaign city,
with little forays out into "the world" from time to time. I think the
latter is the more common campaign style, so I say leave the rest of the
world intentionally vague, and concentrate on expanding the campaign city
(San Angelo, Bay City, or wherever) in future supplements.

By the way, I'd also like to put in my vote for some more cardboard hero
things like what comes with the 4E GM's screen. I'd like to see ones with
the same empty silhouette as the character sheets, so we can draw our own
people on 'em. Full-color ones of the established heroes/villains would be
great too.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 22:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Everyimmortal skills

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

> I know I'd be upset if a GM said, "Well, Bob's character gets 30 points
> worth of free skills because his character is immortal." If he wants the
> skills, he ought to pay for them. Conversely, if he doesn't think they'll
> be useful, he shouldn't buy them, or he should have some alternate method
> of portraying them, like the Cramming (only for known skills) that I and
> someone else suggested.

I have to agree with this. If I'm running a 250 point supers game, I'm
not goiing to be too keen on the idea of giving someone 20 to 50 extra
points (even if they are for 'background' skills) just because they are
immortal (or very long-lived). Everyone should be on equal footing,
points wise. If you want to fit in all the stuff you know (as an
immortal), buy a lot of skill modifers (Scholar, Jack-of-all-Trades etc)
and buy a lot of 1 point skills at 11- (and some skill levels to use with
those skills).

As I player I'd be really peeved, because it would sound like the GM is
allowing certain character concepts to go beyond the established campaign
guidelines. If I have to fit my concept into 250 points, so should Joe
the Immortal.

Now, if you're running a 'build your character to conception' game, I'll
shut up, since a game like this usually only has a suggested range, not a
hard and fast upper limit on character point totals.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:44:48 -0400
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: "Lab" skills question

Kim Foster wrote:
>
> A player recently submitted a character with a base. Simple enough. But the
> "base" has several "labs" that have Prescence skills. Namely:Oratory,
> Seduction, Interrogation and Persuasion. Technically I think this is legal
> but I'm having trouble seeing just how it works. The Interrogation "lab" is
> understandable, but Seduction? Persuasion?
>
> Any comments, suggestions or ideas on these?

At the risk of sounding simplistic, isn't it the responsbility of the
*player* to define the SFX of the labs? After all, the SFX are part of
the narrative definition of the base, which is part of the character
conception. If the player cannot find an SFX that convinces you, then
the lab should be disallowed, regardless of how legal the point
construct.

As for Seduction, remember that the HSR/BBB is clear that the
"Seduction" skill is broader than just sexual seduction. When the old
preachers said that, "The Devil is a Seducer," they weren't talking
about demons' impregnating young women, they were talking about the
ability to talk people into doing things they normally would not do.

While Persuasion convinces someone to change his mind to your position,
Seduction convinces someone to go along with you for the time being.
Thus, it would subsume various forms of Fasttalk and the ability to
entice a normally honest person into a criminal enterprise.

That having been said, some SFX that would convince me:

Oratory: A broadcast studio for speeches, together with special effects
equipment, possibly even including subliminal messages:

"Trust the Computer ... the Computer is your friend."

Oratory: a really impressive venue, such as the Nazis constructed at
Nurenberg, designed for addressing the faithful.

Persuasion: A high-tech conference center that produces impressive
interactive and holographic presentations on any subject. Sensors in
the walls measure the psychophysiological reactions of the subject and
relay advice on what arguments are working and should be emphasized, and
what are failing and should be abandoned or recast.

Persuasion: A magical chamber with subtle mind control powers.

Seduction (Sexual): the Orgasmatron.

Seduction (General): a hypnosis lab.

I hope that these thoughts help.

Robert A. West

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 23:17:44
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Cumulative Power Frameworks

On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:28:06 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>>>I also seem to remember that more than one framework per character is
>>>>at least discouraged.
>
>> And while there's nothing that I can find in the BBB that addresses this
>> issue, I do agree that this should be generally discouraged -- but by no
>> means forbidden (Seeker's case being a case in point, where the two
>> represent widely divergent things).
>
>I'm uncertain as to why it should be forbidden or discouraged. Granted
>multiple VPPS or ECs are a bit much, but Multipowers can simulate *so*
>manythings that it is hard to make a blanket ruling against them.

I could see a good case for multiple ECs, where a character has some
powers which are at markedly different power levels.

Lets suppose we have a speedster whose SPD (max of 10) costs END.

3 EC [5], Only when Super Speed Active (-1/4), Not if immobile (-1/4)
2 10 Pts Power Defense, 1 pt per pt of active SPD (-1), As EC above
(-1/2)
2 10 Pts Mental Defense, As PD above
2 10 Pts Flash Defense, As PD above

10 EC [15], Only when Super Speed Active (-1/4), Not if immobile (-1/4)
6 50% PDR [15], Resistant, As EC above (-1/2), Half Effect if SPD < 8
(-1)
6 50% EDR [15], Resistant, As PDR above
6 50% MDR [15], Resistant, As PDR above

The first set represents the difficulty of tagging him, the second a
'super-dodge'. Note that a -0 Limitation of the second would be that
half the effect carries on... He's also a sitting duck if surprised,
and Drains are nasty. :}

Anyway, the two sets of defenses are clearly seperate in power level,
and SFX as well, so the two ECs are appropriate, plus he'd have a
multipower of Superspeed tricks, and the Superspeed itself might go in
a seperate EC as below.

12 SuperSpeed EC [18] Costs End (-1/2)
20 +6 Spd (Actually +4.8 due to Dex) [30] Costs End (-1/2)
10 +12 Dex [18] Costs End (-1/2), Pro Rata with SPD (-1/4)
[ie +2 Dex per +1 SPD]

Hmmm - I might try and write this up properly as my first Superhero.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:36:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Followers/Vechiles/Automatons/AI in a VPP

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 opal@technologist.com wrote:
> I'll respond with a 'legal' way to do each:

> > Follower VPP: Ecretar the Monster Spawner makes a variety of monsters in
> > his lab who can assist him.
> Summon.
Summoned creatures not necessarily "friendly", summoned creatures
not specific unique creatures specifically "trained" by the spawner to
assist in specific tasks. And since he would be able to build just about
anything, and model it to the point of painful clarity [violating the
Summoning rule of 'roughly outlined creatures'] the prices get
awfully steep. ...and how will a Dispell or Supress Summon 'return the
creature home?'

MECH VPP
> Buy them. You get 2x the number of followers for +5 points. Besides, if he
> has a bunch of mechs in his garage/hanger/whatever you call the building mechs
> hang out in, then wouldn't others be able to come in and use some of them?
MECHS are vechiles, and since each MECH would be a distinctive
vechile with different powers, ye would need to pay full price for each
MECH, even if the variance in powers was as simple as the lack of JumpJets
and the addition of a Submersible Rig. The MECHs are stored away, and
often times are simply the same MECH chassis modified for a specific
situation.

> > Automaton VPP: BoneLord the Necromancer lives in the Valley of Skulls,
> > where he may animate any number of strange sketeal creatures to do his
> > bidding.
> Summon.
Again, not 'friendly.' Also, they're automatons, not truly
creatures, and while I wouldn't split hairs in a game, the book states,
under Summon, that you can only Summon 'a creature' with the basest of
human stats and perceptions for 30 points. There are no guidelines for
Automaton Summoning as of yet in the 'offical' HERO rules. Also, Dispel
and Supress Summon come to mind.

> > AI VPP: MainFrame the TechnoLord can construct a variety of operating
> > systems with a number of programs and bring them into sentience with
> > his uncanny mutant abilities.
>
> Um... Summon.
Same as above, except non sentient AI's have no chance of
'rebelling', and can not be 'friendly' or 'hostile' since they're
hardware.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 98 18:43:40
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Expanded gestures and incantations

On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:40:12 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:

>On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 05:02:58 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, qts wrote:
>> >> >Cannot Move In Phase When Power Is Used (-1/4) for especially cumbersome
>> >> >spells where upon failure could result in a disasterous result.
>> >>
>> >> That's just Extra Time: Full Phase
>> > The character, if trying to make a half-move before using a power
>> >with this Limitation, or taking KB or KD in the same Phase before he gets
>> >to use his power, he should suffer substantial minuses to hit his target
>> >(at least -3), and at the GM's option, may even be injured with his own
>> >attack.
>>
>> Nope: if he gets hit, the spell fails to go off. If he can't move for
>> the whole phase then he gets ET: Full Phase
>Actually, this is just a paraphrased flaw from Dark Champions.

I have to say that I do not see it as an actual Limitation in and of
itself, but then I'm a FHer.

>> >> >Cannot Use Targeting With Spell (-1/2) for speels that are so complex,
>> >> >their casting takes precidence over aiming.
>> >>
>> >> How is this actually a limitation? If it's an attack spell, you need to
>> >> target it; if it isn't you don't.
>> > The character cannot "call shots" against hit locations or
>> >otherwise try to hit one specific location or target.
>> -0 Limitation.
> Also, a paraphrased flaw from Dark Champions.
>> >> >...and the ever popular Restrainable (-1/2) for spells that require
>> >> >complex but easily restrainable somantic components.
>> >> Oh no, that's plain Gestures.
>> >
>> > Actually, for the cost, Restrainable is a much more cost efficent Lim.
>> >Gestures indicates that you would need to make obvious gestures, the power
>> >will not work if grabbed, the power will not turn on if attacked during
>> >gesturing, -1/4 for turing on, or -1/2 for constant. Restrainable is not
>> >necessarily obvious, does noy work (normally) if grabbed or entangled, but
>> >may be used if attacked. Restrainable may also be used as part of the
>> >attack roll, unlike Gestures.
>>
>> Restrainable isn't a standard limitation.
> What makes it 'non-standard'?

It's one not mentioned in the HSR
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:32:41 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Lethal Weapons

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

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>
> "RR" == Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> RR> Tazer's do little to no physical damage (I can attest to that)
>
> Which is why it is a small base attack. They *DO* leave a nasty little
> burn where they hit.
>

Correct, I still have a pair of red dots on my back from an overly entusiastic
yellow belt.

> RR> and your physical health does have an effect on how long you are out (I
> RR> have anecdotal experience with this).
>
> Physical health is represented in Champions by Constitution (thus Stun) and
> Recovery, not Strength and Ego.
>

That is why I think a taser is entangle based on Con. When I had the flu and go
hit I laid on the ground for almost 5 minutes, normally the things only knocked
me out for a minute or two.

> RR> Tasers definately are not any form of killing attack.
>
> Tasers are high voltage low amperage electrical attacks. They may not do
> much Body damage, but they certainly do qualify as Killing attacks.
>

Amperage is the killing effect in electricity not voltage. So the fact that a
taser is high voltage low amperage only reinforces the fact that they are not
killing attacks. Tasers can do physical harm, but it is minimal and rarely
beyond a first degree burn, this does not qualify as a killing attack.

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>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
> \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:08:26 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Automatons

Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 10:45 PM 8/20/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >This reminds me of a question I keep forgetting to ask. In my campaign
> one of my
> >house rules is that computers can be bought with the 5 point doubles the
> number of
> >computers. This is done to simulate a network of computers. The big
> >server/mainframe/AI being the base cost and all the workstations being
> paid for by
> >the doubling rules. MS based machines are disads to the networkd do to their
> >inherent design flaws :). Does anyone consider this an unreasonable house
> rule.
>
> For me, that's a hard call; but if it's a regular computer network, with
> a file server and several conventional nodes, I think it would work,
> dynamically speaking (though don't forget to Mind Link them together!). In
> the case of a mainframe with workstations, I'd want the INT bought up to
> represent a single processor (or, more likely, linked bank of processors)
> doing all the work as a single load.
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

I wouldn't give the bonus for the Mainframe/dumb terminal world, since there is
really only one computer in such a system. In the old X Windows world, you still
have the big server an a lot of low power terminals. In a modern Client/Server
model every node has there own complete machine that communicates with the
server. The mind link is necessary but so is the language skill TCP/IP (or other
network protocol) as well as the program to make use of the skill. The network
architecture determines the cost of the mind link, since it determins who can talk
to whom. This is all side notes to the basic question: should you be allowed to
buy computers with the 2 times for 5 points rule like you can for vehicles,
automatons, agents and bases?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:53:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Anglo-HERO (Re: San Angelo Opinions)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> This is actually a wider problem, applicable to the great majority of
> international heroes. Marvel is especially bad about this (though DC has
> much to answer for as well) with characters like the Arabian Knight, Sabra
> (Israel), Shamrock, and so on. Somehow the majority of non-U.S. characters
> wind up with powers that are defined by their country's cultural or
> folkloric heritage.
Yep. Thanks for pointing this out, though DC is just as much to
blame with their Global Guardians. (Jack o' Lantern anyone???)

> This is better than it once was, at least in the mainstream comics
> universes. It's true that "bad girl" comics are very popular right now,
> though, so it's still pretty rampant among the independents.

> >How many homosexual heroes do we see?

> Time out -- how many *should* you see? Lots of gays are in the closet,
> which is understandable given the treatment they get from a big slice of
> society. And sex lives of the heroes isn't a topic that should get much
> coverage in comics anyway. Perhaps the few we've seen so far will lure
> others out of the closet, though. Alpha Flight's Northstar...Maggie
> Sawyer, head of Metropolis's Special Crimes Unit...Tony Stark. Oh, come
> on, your didn't know?!? He's *obviously* overcompensating.

Publically, perhaps they are in the closet, but -privately- (the
stuff, you, the reader [yes, you!] get to see) they could be very gay. In
fact, one of my favorite characters from DC's Vertigo line, _The
Invisibles_ is a homosexual Brazilian transvestite who can conjure
spirits. Her (...his) name is Lord Fanny.

> >Where are the Jewish heroes?

> Religion is another thing that generally doesn't rate a lot of coverage in
> the comic stories, and is not detectable at range. You may choose to
> assume if you like that most of those caucasian heroes are Protestants of
> some stripe or other, but if they were Catholic, Jewish, Moslem, agnostic,
> atheist, Zoroastrian or Wiccan, you'd never be able to tell just by looking
> at them.

Again, character depth.... But wait, let us not forget Kitty
Pride! She's Jewish!
Anyone know any hardcore Catholic superheroes?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Everyimmortal skills [long]

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Lockie wrote:

> > >
> > > hmmm. . well if it was REALLy big you could put a city on it. .
> >
> > Errr... if what was really big?
> >
> a sloth! broaden your mind!

<strained voice> Must... control... Fist... of... Death...

> > > and anyway, ferrets can climb. .
> >
> > Yes, but trees? Ferrets (and weasels and stoats etc) have awfully short
> > legs. Here in America the black-footed ferret is a *burrowing* animal
> and
> > lives in prarie dog tunnels.
>
> BIG ferrets. . thick foliage and such isn't that much of a stretch. .

Bigger doesn't always mean taller.

This is a problem I have with many fantasy settings (and a number of old
AD&D monsters) no logic behind the environment or ecology.

> > >and it's not like horses evolved to
> > > have bits of metal nailed to their toenails. .
> >
> > What does that have to do with ferrets?

> you stated a bunch or reasons why ferrets are unsuitable
> for being ridden, but horses probably sucked the first thousand years or so
> anyway. .
> it's all a matter of the warpinf effects of domestication.

Incorrect. My argument was against 'tree-climbing' ferrets. Having elves
(or halflings) or someting riding giant ferrets instead of horses is no
problem, having them climbing trees doesn't sound right.

Now, I doubt that horses 'sucked' for the first thousand years. If they
did, who would have kept using them? And many cultures never used
horseshoes (American Indians for one), so that analogy doesn't work.

>the warpinf effects of domestication

The what?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 22:05:52 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Breadth vs. Depth

Wow;
You know years ago GURPS put together a survey and stuck it in a lot of
their publications and releases asking people what they wanted. These
days, that could be done with a form based web-bage, perhaps hooked into
a tallying cgi to give you an output page showing the 'votes'; and
emailing you any detailed replies. But all that aside, let me answer you
on my choices:


HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
> I'd like some opinions on a basic question regarding Champions supplements.
> Would you prefer to see more information about one location (a city), or would
> you rather see a broader picture of a number of locations? In other words, we

This is a hard toss. I will say that I thought San Angelo was much more
usable than say... Champions of the North. However by contrast Fantasy
Hero was more useful than say; VIPER.
It's an issue of thoroughness sometimes, and detail other times.

> Or, for another type of book, would you rather see more detail on
> fewer characters, or a larger number of characters with less detail? Our
> original Enemies book had about a paragraph on each villain, where some of our
> more recent books have spent pages on key characters.

two pages per character format seems best. I like the level of detail
it provides. I want to know who an NPC is, how I can use them, etc.

> As another example, we've sometimes dealt with villain groups in just about a
> page (plus the character writeups), yet it would be possible to do an entire
> book on a group such as Eurostar. At that level of detail there'd be plenty of
> story lines and adventures ideas, ways to hook in backgrounds of Eurostar
> members with heroes, and so on. Then again, you're getting far fewer
> characters overall in such a book.

I think only a few groups deserve an entire book. I prefer a middle
ground on this issue.

> characters with more detail? More depth or more breadth?

In general more depth. I can come up with NPC's left and right. They
need flavor to make me pay for them.

- --
Rook WebRPG TownHall Magistrate townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:29:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Building the immortal.

On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Lockie wrote:

> > And this is your idea of a "complete character"? No breakdown of
> > characteristics, no descriptive background, no indication whatsoever as
> to
> > what his 100 point in various Skills is meant to cover, perks (other than
> > Wealth) not specified, and not a single Disavantage to pay for any of it.
> >
> > Please review any one Michael Surbrook's CHAR: posts to see what a
> > "complete character" is supposed to look like.
>
> short version . . . i was displaying the points breakdown. .
> this is BLATANTLY obvious. .

Actually, it wasn't. I figured out waht you were doing, but it still
looked like a collection of rough notes for a design, not a sample
immortal.

> > Max, I haven't decided whether to take you up on your challenge or not.
> > Frankly, I feel like I'm taking a lot of flak from this already (mainly
> > since Lockielf sounded off) so if I do put such a character together in
> the
> > next couple of days, expect to see it off-line rather than on this list.
> >

Why? Weather the flak and send it on in.

> oh for gods sakes, have a cry. i'm getting a tad sick of you hyperdefensive
> nutbags
> acting like i've invaded your fortress of solitude every time i DARE to
> disagree with you.

Perhaps it isn't the fact that you disagree, but the way you do it.
Instead of trying to present clear arguments and points, we get bombarded
with non-sensical statements and examples that are herd to dechipher as to
their intent. You can disagree and present your disgreements *without*
making a mockary of the subject being discussed.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:25:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS!!

Let's not assign to enemy action that which might be explained by sheer
stupidity. This sort of thing has happened before, usually when someone's
server goes nuts. Personally, I'd doubt that anyone would do this on
purpose.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #32
****************************


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Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 02:54 PM