Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 32i

Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 10:08 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #32

champ-l-digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 032

In this issue:

Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character.
RE: Everyimmortal Skills
Re: Is this as abnormal as I think it is? (Minority Gamers)
Re: Jumping on the latest fad...
Re: Online Magazine
Re: giant sloth's
Re: Everyimmortal [Dr. Nuncheon]
A Tale of Two Cities
Re: Anglo-HERO (Re: San Angelo Opinions)
Re: Breadth vs. Depth


Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:09:56 -0500 (EST)
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character.

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In fact, there are plenty of examples of angels in the bible being quite
bloodthirsty...particularly in the Old Testamant, they are used as an
insturment of god's vengeance as well as God's facilitators (i.e.
arranging for the Christ Child to have a mother)....

So, believe it or not, I don't see anything wrong with an angel killing
innocents, like in a previous post--PROVIDED the angelic character
doesn't have disads preventing it.

My suggestions:

DISTINCTIVE FEATURES: unspeakably beautiful person....extreme reaction
Arrogant (even the nicest angels are above us on the food chain--so they
would have a sort of 'looking down my nose' attitude similar to, let's
say, Marvel's Quicksilver)
WATCHED: Higher Power, 14-
Obligated to obey Higher Power's edicts regardless of his/her feelings
about these edicts
ENRAGED v. Unholy beings/weapons, 14-/8- (They might not be vulnerable
to demons and memonic magics, but it'd bug them out)

"'I thought you loved stake-outs."
"Yeah--it's like camping with guns."
--Costas Amdolyr and Tammy Lauren, MARTIAL LAW
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character.
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"E" == Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> writes:

E> 6. Do not commit outright murder.

Now, this is an interesting one. Go read the Passover story; I'll wait.

Done, yet? Good.

Angels are clearly *not* bound by mortal commandments. Or, at least some
are not.

Just some food for thought.

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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:09:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: RE: Everyimmortal Skills

On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> >The problem isn't that he gets free skills, the problem is
> >that he gets all the free skills my character gets, then
> >gets more, still free.
> Look at the sample lists of ES. There are 10 Skills in the Viking Fantasy
> list, 11 in the Modern list and 12 in the Science Fiction list. Captain
> Future gets 12 ES to Erik the Viking's 10. By your reasoning this is
> unfair to Erik and Captain Future should have to pay for his two "extra"
> Everyman Skills.

In a crossover campaign that included Vikings and Space Marines, I
probably /would/ revise the Everyman skill lists to make them equal.

However, even if I didn't - that's a difference of 2 points. Not a big
deal. Giving an Immportal all the Everyman sills for the cultures he's
lived through would come to 30, 40, or 50 points difference. That /is/ a
big deal.

Probably, I would let the immortal have either the Everyman skills for his
'birth culture' or the Everyman skills for the campaign setting - anything
else he'd have to buy.

> >He may get a lot of fairly useless skills that way, but he
> >does get them, and for free. You are unfairly giving him
> >extra abilities that others have to pay for, based upon
> >concept.
> Here again, you seem to be claiming that Captain Future's ES list is unfair
> to Erik because he gets two Skills free that Erik would have to pay for.
> Given their relative backgrounds, I don't think it's unfair at all.

Hey, cool, so if I make a character whose background is 'Genetrically
engineered human clone who has been hypnotically programmed with all human
knowledge', does that mean I get every skill for free because it's in my

That's a door I don't want to open.

Giving a character free points because they choose a certain background
goes against the entire spirit of the HERO rules - at least IMHO.
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing A A Free Lunch. You get what you
pay for.

> >> Try to focus. Everyman Skills, Everyman Skills,
> >> Everyman Skills. No one
> >> is discussing free Talents or Powers.
> >
> >No, we are discussing free things that your character gets
> >that others have to pay points for, unfairly penalizing
> >anyone who wants those skills but isn't "Immortal".
> How many times do I have to say this?
> Captain Future gets Computer Programming free. You as a Modern man have to
> pay for it. This is unfair?

Note that, in general, Everyman skills are supposed to apply across an
entire campaign - i.e. everyone in 'Spy Hunt' gets the 'Modern' ES
package. If you're going to have crossover campaigns, you should really
revise the ES packages so that they are equal instead of slavishly
following what's in the book.

> >No one gets more than one package of Everyman skills for
> >free. Your immortal would, simply because of concept, thus
> >getting a variety of skills for free.
> No, my immortal would get one package of Everyman Skills, it would just be
> slightly longer than yours.

Define 'slightly longer'. I think most people opposing you are under the
impression that the Everyman skill list for an immortal would be rather

> >Explain to me why he gets 10, 20, or 30 points of skills for
> >free, and my character has to pay for them.
> If I haven't explained it by now, I'm afraid I'm not at all confident of my
> ability to do so. Suppose the SFX of the immortality is reincarnation;
> conventional birth, new body every time, sometimes switching sex? As the
> character ages he remembers his past lives, and by adulthood each time, he
> has full access to what he learned in his former incarnations? How would
> *you* handle ES for that character?

As above - either his 'birth culture' (from the first time) or the current
setting's Everyman skills. Anything else he'd have to buy, because
otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the other players.


Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj


Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Is this as abnormal as I think it is? (Minority Gamers)

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In my time gaming, I've played with diverse groups. My last face to
face was prolly the most diverse: one Hispanic, a Japaese-American and
an African American. But then, I live in NYC

"'N I fell for all that'die-like-a-warrior' crap. I've seen clowns fall
off their bikes with more honor"
--Xander Haris, BUFFY TVS #1
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:51:29 -0500
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
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Subject: Is this as abnormal as I think it is? (Minority Gamers)
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First, a question. How common are non-white gamers in your experience,
Champions/Hero or not?

In the Joliet area, where I played, out of quite a large group, I can
recall exactly two. Me, being part Native American and part European,
and an African American player.

At my Undergrad school, we had a half-African, half-Polish gamer,
though he had been pulled in through theater affiliations. That was it.

Now that I've moved down to Oklahoma, things seem completely turned
around. I met for the first time with a Champs group down here, which I
may or may not continue with. They were a bit too combat oriented for
my tastes, doing very little but. Anyway, the GM is white, I've
described me, and of the other 4 players, two are African American, one
is Hispanic, and one is Hispanic/Native.

Also, I've (through luck) gotten ahold of some other gamers on campus
that I knew from other things (classes and such). Three with experience
in AD&D and Whitewolf (Yeah, yeah -- but they are willing to do
Champs/Hero), all three Native American.

Did I just luck out into an abolute paradise of diversity in
RolePlayers? I like the setup.

-Tim Gilberg

- --00307145--


Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:54:22 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Jumping on the latest fad...

> > > This assumes that you're fighting people of similar ethics. Don't try
> > > this against China.
> >
> > We chinese are not unethical monsters. And even the government
> > currently in power over there stops to help it's wounded. There isn't a
> > stable civilization on earth that doesn't look out for it's own. Even if
> > a government becomes monsterous; there is still individual morality.
> > Otherwise you get a situation like Kmer Rouge (sp?) Cambodia that gets
> > Now I know the classic western knee jerk reaction is to point to
> > Tianamen Square. But that case actually supports my point very well. The
> > students put a lot of effort into getting their wounded out. I don't
> > know if any soilders had been hurt there; but I imagine if they were
> > they weren't left to die by their side.
> Since I'm not certain what the intial poster was referring to (do the
> Chinese have a reputation of ignoring casualties on the field?), I fail to

The original point was about how wounding is more effective than
killing as it forces an opponent to put resources into hoospitals and
even on the battlefield causes fellow troops to have to drop out of
fighting and rescue wounded comrades. The poster had assumed that
Chinese somehow lacked the concern for their buudies that is otherwise a
universal human trait and thus left them to die on the field.

As for the Chinese government having policies that don't match western
morality; I can agree that this is true. Though I can see a
justification of Tianamen square when viewed from confucian moral

(the government felt that allowing the disruption to cintinue would be
to allow anything other than total order. And in confucian thought,
anything outside of total order is total chaos, which will cause a
society to completely disintegrate. This system is thankfully being
dropped by most of asia, but sadly the Chinese government is full of old
people with old ways of thinking. Under the moral systems they grew up
with as children; they had to do what they did or the entire country
would have become like Beruit. Likely not a correct view, but likely
what they thought. Hopefully we'll get a new generation with new values
in there soon.)

However just because they have a 'harsher' moral code than the west
does not mean they have no concern for life. Or more importantly, for
the lives of their comrades. The soilders came to view the students as
enemies of the social order. That placed the students in the undesirable
position of being seen as a lethally dangerous threat. So it's natural
they would conflict. They were not on the same sides. But each side did
look out for members OF IT'S OWN SIDE. Just that unlike westerners; with
our traditions of civil disobediance; they did not see each other as
members of the same group with opposing views. Therefore there was no
need for concern over the opponant beyond removing them from the battle
in the fastest way possible.

> see how this exactly proves *your* point. Sure, the students tried to
> pull their wounded out, and the soldiers most certainly looked to their
> own, but my question is: "What kind of government condones mass slaughter
> of its own citizens?"

True. A government which is not based on western morality; but
confuscian morality is the answer. Hopefully the philosophy of
confuscianism will die out soon; becoming nothing more than a backdrop
upon which more modern modes of thinking are laid as it has in more
modern asian countries. However as I was discussing the way people react
to looses on their own side of a conflict; the square backs up my view
that people of chinese ethnicity are not inhuman monsters that leave
their own to die.

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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: GURPS

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Uhhh....that is EXACTLY the point I was making--that the licensing stuff
(and I'm the first to say that I like their BUFFY stuff) supports their
non-licensed stuff, or their licensed stuff of limited appeal, like the
Andrew Vacchs adaptions and the more personal stuff like SKELETON

And SJG is adapting other games so it can stay solvent and do the more
obscure bizarre stuff.....

"'N I fell for all that'die-like-a-warrior' crap. I've seen clowns fall
off their bikes with more honor"
--Xander Haris, BUFFY TVS #1
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley

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thomas deja wrote:

> Conidering that I'm willing to bet that the GURPS licensed stuff allows
> SJG to do original stuff (you wanna bet GURPS: Vampire outsold all the
> Illuminiati and Voodoo and Atomic horror, etc...combined?), why are we
> so down on it? It's like the comic company Dark Horse doing Star wars
> books to allow it to do obscure mangas and Andrew Vacchs
> adaptions--doing these adaptions frees them up to do stuff SJG wants to
> do.

HEY! Don't be slamming Dark Horse!

I am the one first to admit that Dark Horse built itself on Licensing.
Mike Richardsen, the owner and publisher and owner, is also one of the first
to admit it. They found a niche in the comic book industry and laid claim to
it, with very little serious opposition Licensing and tie-ins with movies and
other material does make a whole ton of money. And they have devoted a
tremendous amount of resources to it.

But this also allows them to print their own original material. In fact,
much of the movie tie-ins are actually original material. And then there are
their own original characters and booksl. No, that section of their line does
not sell as much as the tie-ins. But it does give them a strength that pretty
much will keep them going with no threat to their stability. They have the
ability to experiment very well and still remain at the top of the industry.

Comparing Dark Horse and SJG is something I don't believe is apropriate.
They operate completely differently when to comes to licenses material. Dark
Horse produces entire lines of new stories and new material based on the movie
tie-ins. SJG just adapts the existing material and goes no further.

- --60078803--


Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:02:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Online Magazine

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Reading these last few points gave me an idea--what about a 'pay for
use' 'zine. Let's say you send out to your customers a list of twenty
articles every month. The customers look at the list, choose the
articles they wants, and send a nominal fee (50 cents? A dollar?) for
each article, and which point the articles would be sent to the
customer. Thus you have an online magazine custom built for each
customer that was cost about the same as the ADVENTURER'S CLUB.

"'N I fell for all that'die-like-a-warrior' crap. I've seen clowns fall
off their bikes with more honor"
--Xander Haris, BUFFY TVS #1
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley

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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Online Magazine
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On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Egyptoid wrote:

> > An online magazine is a nice idea though.
> This is just a question not a flame:
> Why don't you cooperate/consolidate
> with the Haymaker/Power-point people?

"Cooperate/consolidate" what? My material? A webpage? That is up to a
lot of people, I'm just 1/16 or 1/20 or the people involved.

> > I dunno if I'd pay for it.
> C'mon, let's use a concrete example, Dragon Magazine.
> If you like AD&D, for about $5 you get about 40 pages
> of AD&D content each month. It's a 100 page magazine,
> but there's ads, book reviews, computer column, editorial,
> forum, game news, and articles for/by other games.
> So when you weed down to the core AD&D content,
> it's about 40 pages, in a "good" issue.

Except there is no way to know if that 40 pages is going to be anything I
can use. And I don't want to spend the money for a magazine.

* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *

- --43657642--


Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:19:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: giant sloth's

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Lockie wrote:

> > Hmm, I wonder what they make their tools out of? Do they climb off of
> > the sloth and gather rocks and such, and then run to catch up with the
> > sloth before it walks too far away? Or do they have claws sufficient to
> > pierce the hard shell of the seed-pods and burrow out the meat?
> >
> well it depends on thier sophistication. they could make their
> tools from the claws of the parasites you mention below,
> or some sort of birdlife. They could even be advanced enought
> to have metal traded to them by the ferret riding happyelves

Ahh, there you go - but what would they trade to the
tree-climbing-ferret-riding happyelves? At the moment, they have a
paucity of natural resources. Obviously it's something the elves can't
get for themsleves, or at least not as easily as the slothdwellers.

OTOH, maybe the elves give them metal tools and such as a sort of tribute:
'keep your sloth cities from destroying our homelands, and we will give
you these valuable tools and such in trade.'

> > Do these sloth-things have parasites? What's the relationship of the
> > sloth-dwellers to those parasites? Do they domesticate them, or do they
> > hunt them and kill them (thus being in more of a symbiotic relationship
> > with the sloth?
> i'd say use them for tools, perhaps pets, they may even keep their sloth
> rather well groomed and decorated, free of all vermin and so forth,
> dressing
> wounds, ect, ect. .

Of course! The continued health of the sloth is vital to the continued
health of the family unit! I like the idea of the kids having a giant
flea or something as a pet, and hunting parties muscling through the fur
to track down lice and ticks as big as they are.

> > And what happens when the horribly unthinkable happens, and a city-sloth
> > dies?
> well, it's a disaster! if they're lucky they see it coming, grab all they
> can and vamoose.
> They could even live temporarily on a tree bough but mobility would likely
> be a good idea in a forrest full of giant creatures, or at least a few
> giants
> like a wandering predator for the sloth's. It could be possible that their
> lifestyle is now a cultural choice, and if they have to they can put down
> roots (pun) on a tree branch or even *gasp* the ground, but to do so
> would be like any group leaving their ancestoral home. .

One hopes that the sloths are longer-lived than the slothdwellers - it'd
be horribly awkward to move your city every few years.

I wonder if other slothdweller families would come to pick up the stranded
dwellers - either as additions to their own families (always good to get
new blood) or as slaves and servants (obviously they're inferior - they
let their sloth die), depending on their temperament.

> net.world? hmmm. . nets WOULD come in handy, especially hen the village
> was hanging upsode down. .(i'll stop now)

I was picturing something like the ratlines on a ships rigging for
travel from one place to another on the sloth. That way it doesn't matter
which way 'round the sloth is - you just clamber around on the rope

Another point, brought up in an earlier reply - how the slothdweller
families get along. I would think that this would depend on the
temperaments of the sloths - if the sloths are solitary and challenge
other sloths that enter their territory, I think the dwellers would by
necessity be less well-inclined towards strangers - after all, they don't
want their sloth to get into a fight, and possibly get injured, so they
would probably try to stay isolated.

If the sloths traveled in packs or other family-group type arrangements, I
imagine that the dwellers would try to have good relations with the
dwellers on other sloths in their own pack/herd/whatever. (What is the
word for a group of sloths? Or a group of cities for that matter?)

Perhaps the sloths are solitary, except for when they all get together and
mate. That'd be time for a big festival of trading and marriages and
things, because that'd be the only time you'd see other slothdwellers.


Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj


Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:29:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Everyimmortal [Dr. Nuncheon]

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> At 08:33 AM 8/10/98 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >
> >No. We don't want to give certain characters lots of useful extra skills
> >for free.
> Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes "lots of useful extra
> skills". In the detail part of my posted Everyimmortal Skill list, I
> mentioned that the character was entitled to serial coverage of one viable
> PS throughout his lifetime. If he's started off as a charcoal burner, that
> would have been fine for a while, but after a few centuries, no one did
> that for a living any more, so he'd have been forced into something else.

> My thinking here is that the ES list entitles the character to one
> marketable skill, in the form of a PS at 8-. The immortal character is
> entitled to have one marketable skill thoughout his [productive adult]
> life, so as soon as his first PS ceases to be a viable way to make a
> living, he should be given a replacement.

Aha! Now this makes a bit of sense. But he stopped being a charcoal
burner 300 years ago...how much of that is he going to remember? Why not
say, "Take your current PS as an Everyman skill, and buy any others that
you remember how to do?" That means they get their one viable PS as an
Everyman skill, but they can remember how to do other stuff should they
wish to.

I would also apply this to languages - let's face it, if you haven't
spoken 13th century Spanish in 700 years, you're going to have forgotten
it. Just take English 4 as your 'native' language because that's what you
speak all the time now. If you want to remember other languages, buy
them. (Alternately, I might allow the character to buy KS: Archaic
Languages to reflect the fact that he remembers some of those languages,
but they're not going to be very useful to him because of linguistic
drift. )

Same thing for TFs. If the immortal stops riding horses to get everywhere
and starts driving cars, he's going to basically forget how to do it -
unless he makes a deliberate effort to keep up, in which case he should
pay points to represent the time he's putting into keeping up his riding

> >Look at it this way:
> >
> >Two characters, A and B. Both start out with exactly the same thing: 250
> >points and a set of Everyman skills. They spend their points on exactly
> >the same things. Both are 'immortals'. The difference: A has just
> >discovered his immortality, while B has been at it for 500 years.
> >
> >Now...A wants to know hwo to ride a horse - he has to pay for TF: Horse.
> >B gets it free.
> >
> >A wants to know how to speak several European languages. He has to pay
> >for them.
> >B gets them free.
> >
> >How do you explain this to A's player without him thinking (and rightly
> >so) that you're arbitrarily rewarding B for having a different concept?
> >The only difference in their concepts is that B has been alive for 500
> >years longer.
> And this has, in the course of ordinary day-to-day living, exposed him to
> more things.

Yes, I understand that. Do you give extra points to a 40 year old man as
opposed to a 20 year old man? After all, the 40 year old has been alive
twice as long, and been exposed to more things.

Alternately, do you give more points to someone who is a world traveler
than to someone who stays at home? The world traveler has been exposed to
more things in the course of his day-to-day living.

Now, if I were going to build two characters, one 18 years old and one 45
years old, the 45-year-old would probably spend more points on skills, due
to her life experience. But that doesn't mean the 45-year-old has more
points - it just reflects how they ought to be spent!

I would expect that, if I were creating two 'balanced' characters at 18
and 45 years of age, the 18-year-old would have fewer skills, and would
need something else to balance her with the 45-year-old: higher stats, a
talent of some sort, etc. But I wouldn't give the 45-year-old extra
stuff just for being older, and I wouldn't do it for a 500-year old


Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj


Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:37:23 -0500
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Subject: A Tale of Two Cities

I'm starting to put together my notes from the campaign city I created
and wanted to get some ideas from the list on how they would feel about
seeing two versions of a city: one from before WWII for pulp-style
adventures and one modern version.

- --
Chris Hartjes
Entertainment Resources Group


Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:02:05 +1000
From: m <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Anglo-HERO (Re: San Angelo Opinions)

> > more realistic that say. . .100% of the homosexual people potrayed being
> > hyper-competent, neat and morally perfect? or 100% of women who
> How about we start with SOME homsexuals, barring sterotypes...

my point was that the olkd media stereotypes have been replaced by equallyfalse pc

> > are in competition with a man within a scenario winning said contest,
> > while said male is depicted as some form of lower primate?
> How about the contest in won on merit rather than gender?

the suggestion in such stories is that the women has more merit, partly bydint OF
her gender.

> > it makes more sence for a hero to know martial arts if they
> > are from the area of the world who originated them. And it's unlikely
> > from a traditional story pov that the secrets of tai-dim-mak will be
> > taught to a select coven of jamacian people in the depths of brooklyn.
> Very true... but ethnic sterotypes fall into comics when EVERYONE
> in an modern Asian city can go into 'Kung-Fu fighting' like Jackie Chan,
> and often when everyone has dated ideas as to what an ethnic Asian city
> looks like, it grates on my sensibilities.
> ...and I agree. While the tai-dim-mak scenerio is possible (in
> the most extreme of circumstances), it is highly improbable.

and the odds of a given city being chock full of matrtial arts masters?higher in
the east than the west, even if it is highly improbable. .

> > erm, huh? like most characters motif's aren't culture-based?captain america?
> > the fantastic four? thor? all the products of their
> > culture. then there's the animal people, who are similarly representitive.
> Captain America 'theme' and nation of origin, as well as his
> patroitism, are part of his motif. He's not WASP-man. The fact that he
> is blond haired and blue eyed doesn't make him any more American (dosen't
> make him any less, either). No one doubts that Captain America is no less
> Captain America because he is American.

concepts f natiionality are culture-based.

> I don't get the Fantastic Four reference. They were people who
> were hit with Gamma Rays and got powers.

. .and wear neat uniforms . . and use science? it's a classic rehearsalof the
scientific/authoritarian concept, where science solves all our problems, ect.

> Thor is a Norse diety. He's Norse. He also comes from a time
> before political correctness (though I don't know why he dosen't have RED
> hair like he's supposed to).

yes. .. his motif is intrinsically a culture-concept, he has a norse motifbecause
he is norse. . just like some heores choose motifs based on their culture.

> Animal people are their own thing. The writers can do what they
> want with them.

but still, there's usually a cultural concept involved.

> > > Must most Russian hero have some sort of
> > > >Nationalist theme?
> > if you live in the old ussr, and have super powers, you either join the
> > party or get squashed by some guy with a big hammer after
> > being hamstrung by a guy with a big sickle. propaganda shapes
> > these character. valid, i'd say..
> This is why I think heroes should have PR agents... the heroes could have
> -good- propaganda surrounding them, like less cheesy costumes! :)

as far as auld comunism is concerned, good pr is building a giantfake city near
your borders to scare the capitalists with your 'power'.

> > how many non-attractive people are there anywhere in fiction?i'd say it's
> > a bit of a genre convention. .
> ...but it's a dated genre. Only thin, attractive, buxom females
> get mutant powers? Only muscular, heroic looking males get bitten by
> radioactive click-bugs?

well, we could go wacky and think: what if only nordic types had the
x-factor?oooohhhhhhhh *runs for cover*
and erm.. perter parker WAS a nerd, and look pretty nerdish for some time.

> ...and if your talking about non-superheroic fiction, yes.
> Somtimes the heroes are less than handsome.
> <snipped very good points>
> Good input. :)

it was? man i gotta get back on form. .


Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:50:55 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Breadth vs. Depth

Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I hope I'm not wasting my time rewriting VOICE, and writing up Cascade
Champions, in CU terms.... (In the latter case, an update of Project
Sunburst will be included.)
What would you guys say if the CU were carefully retooled (either
gradually or all at once) into a more cohesive place?<<

I'd have to wonder why Hero would want to refurbish CU. CU, San Angelo,
and Bay City are not really distinct enough (in my opinion) for them all to
exist simultaneously and be successful. In fact, if it weren't for the
difference in the rule system which the two settings reference, I would say
that SA and BC already step on each other's toes. I don't plan on using CU
anymore, but my existing CU books aren't useless--I'll probably use a ton
of villains from the Enemies books and other source material and just drop
them into SA or BC. I don't see myself picking up many more CU books,
though, unless it's something I've wanted forever and just never found. Of
course, CU stuff is now only published in electronic format, an idea which
I've never been fond of, so that further separates me from CU. If we make
the assumption that the CU holdouts will be a small minority (it's too
early to tell--perhaps most everyone will stick with it), then the question
becomes rather to keep part of the company (Hero Games) supporting this
minority or rather to turn the entire focus on the setting that most of the
customers are utilizing. This could go either way...I used to work for a
company that to this day (!) still writes brand-spanking-new Commodore 64
software, simply because they can make a profit from the small but loyal
market. On the other hand, I've worked for companies who have dropped
products because they found that the company overhead (special case
business rules, etc) generated by the product was not worth the money it
was bringing in, even if it was showing a profit. At this point, though, I
can safely say that any future Champions game I run will be based in either
SA or BC (probably SA).

>> Good point! A lot of the "Powers/Tactics:" listings for existing NPCs
focus on the former, and virtually ignore the latter. At least a paragraph
on a character's tactics should be included, with such information as the
character's outlook in battle, preferred targets, favorite attack,
readiness to retreat, and such.
I'll be sure to keep that in mind as I write in the future. Hopefully
you'll find the sample characters in TUV (at least, any that you deem
worthy of inclusion in your game) satisfactory in this regard.<<

Yeah, some supplements do handle tactics, but it's not very common.
Usually they only mention it if the character is a team player, such as
Binder in the Classic Enemies version of the Ultimates (he hangs back and
entangles people so that the muscle team members can pound on 'em). It's
much less common for solo villains to have much in the way of a tactics
writeup, so they all end up acting the way the GM would act were he in that

>> The way things are going, there will be distinct minorities working in
the CU, homegrown, SA, C:NM, and various other published universes. As
outstanding as SA:COH apparently is, I don't think that it'll dominate the
market the way you seem to be implying here. (Of course, I'm saying this
without having actually seen the book; once I do, I may change my tune.)<<

I didn't mean to say that SA would dominate the market. It's just that SA
and C:NM are the ones being pushed the most (paper supplements), while CU
has "scaled down" (I think everyone would agree that it was a scaling down,
not just a lateral format change) to just electronic books. I don't think
CU will ever grow in popularity while it is only supported electronically,
so the way is open for SA and C:NM to become the main worlds. Now, just
because I run my game in SA (for example) doesn't mean that I won't buy
C:NM books--they could have cool ideas in 'em! This is where CU might stay
alive...people just looking for neat ideas to plug into their setting of
choice. Still, if my game is running in SA, then first priority will go to
SA supplements, and C:NM/CU/whatever books will be on a curiosity basis


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