Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 352

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 2:48 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #352


champ-l-digest Thursday, May 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 352



In this issue:

VPP & Fantasy Hero
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero
Re: 5th edition changes
RE: Is this legal?
Re: One character, two super IDs
RE: Is this legal?
RE: Is this legal?
Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero
RE: Is this legal?
Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero
Re: One character, two super IDs
Re: Is this legal?
RE: One character, two super IDs
RE: <FHList> Spell power levels
Re: 5th edition changes
Re: Magic VPP & END Pool
The Phantom Menace
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: Is this legal?
Re: The Phantom Menace
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER
SW: TPM
Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:38:21 EDT
From: MWStrong@aol.com
Subject: VPP & Fantasy Hero

Unless allowed by the GM, Fantasy Hero does not allow power frameworks to be
used. They tend to make beginning mages MUCH more powerful than starting
warriors, thieves, etc. Mages could justify the point saving features of
elemental pools, and / or the flexability of mulit and variable pools, while
the others mainly buy skills, perks, and characteristics.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:03:33 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?

> Guns with exploded ammunition were found in the car nearby, but there
>was no clear evidence that the house had been shot at, nor that the
>guns had even been fired before the car caught fire. No mention was
>made of spent casings found inside or around the car, and the
>ammunition explodedINSIDE the rifles, suggesting to me that they
>probably had full magazines still.

Don't GM *for* him! Bullet holes in the house, Y/N?

><Return of Snipzilla>
>
>> Again I am unclear. If the house has been fired on, is that probable
>> cause to seach the house?

> If there was evidence the house had been shot at, and if the police
>got no response when they tried simply pounding on doors, then they
>would have a reasonable cause to make their own entry into the house
>through whatever means they needed to make sure that there was no one
>injured or killed inside the building.

yup-yup. They couldn't search anything. Anything lying in plain sight
would be grounds to go and get a search warrant, right?


Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]

Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-

http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:30:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero

On Wed, 19 May 1999 MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
> Unless allowed by the GM, Fantasy Hero does not allow power frameworks to be
> used. They tend to make beginning mages MUCH more powerful than starting
> warriors, thieves, etc. Mages could justify the point saving features of
> elemental pools, and / or the flexability of mulit and variable pools, while
> the others mainly buy skills, perks, and characteristics.

This is a special case scenerio where an NPC has what I refer to
as a form of "True Magic," or 'natural' magic. I reserve VPP's for NPCs
only, as they are usually Merlin-esque Uber Mages or Venger-esque Demon
spawn.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:06:10 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 5th edition changes

HeroGames@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/99 5:10:27 PM, jmeunier@indiana.edu writes:
>
> >What are the changes between 4th and 5th? I just dusted off my old 4th
> >edition rules and am looking at organizing a campaign/recruiting some
> >players. Are we all going to have vertigo when 5th comes out?
> >
>
> None of the basic mechanics of the game are changing. All Characteristics
> cost the same. A few powers have changed cost (notably Aid, which has become
> 10 points/d6), but most have the same cost. A number of powers have more
> options, such as Enhanced Senses and Change Environment. Some "new"
> Advantages and Limitations are present, though most have been seen before in
> Hero System Almanacs and other places. The most important change is a
> thorough rewrite for clarity, and a whole lot of sample powers.
>
> Existing characters will generally need no changes to work under 5th Edition
> rules, but in many cases you may want to rewrite them in order to take
> advantage of new options.
>
> Steve Peterson, Hero Games

Is it true that Hand Attack is also going up to 5 points per die ?
I've been rewriting all my bricks under this assumption, please
tell me this is correct. I'd hate to think HA is still a paltry 3 pts.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:18:22 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Is this legal?

Mitchel Santorineos wrote:
> Now depending on how you use 0end and NCM this version would be cheaper.
> Some people require the NCM to be bought down to 0end when buying down the
> running/teleport. I don't. I believe the NCM is a special effect for the
> character to go faster, since it has no good combat benefit, other than to
> arrive first.

This is actually the point I was leading up to:

Many powers have 'adders' in them, where you can let the power do something
for +X points. However, there is no clear way to determine whether or not
advantages and/or limitation can or must be applied only to the base power,
or to the base power and all adders. As an example, Change environment lets
you double the radius for +5 points. Since these +5s end up comprising most
of the cost of the power, I would make a player apply any desired advantages
to them. Teleport locations would be an opposite example, since they are
usually minor additions to the power. Teleport mass multipliers and NCMs
fall a bit more into the Grey zone in between. I'm /hoping/ (Steve?) that
5th edition will shed some light on this issue.

----Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:42:47 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: One character, two super IDs

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: [unknown] <champ-l-digest@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 1:17 AM
Subject: One character, two super IDs


>One of my players has expressed an interest in having a second paranormal
>ID for the same character--his intent is that this 2nd identity could be
>used to infiltrate the criminal organizations that are responsible for this
>father's death.
>
>How would you do this? The character doesn't have any sort of variable
>power pool or variable special effects or anything, nor does he have
>multiform or disguise skill or anything. The only thing I've been able to
>come up with is for him to use his experience to buy gadgets which give him
>powers he doesn't normally have, then when he has enough of these he will
>be ready to pretend to be a different cape.
>
>Here are the character's current powers (just the main ones), if it helps.
>The concept is supposed to be darkness control, but as you will see, this
>character has a terrible, unexplainable concept. I just allowed it because
>this is par for the course for this player, and I get tired of arguing:
>
>* Darkness, 2" radius
>* Teleport
>* Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack, Penetrating
>* Desolidification
>
>That's the main stuff he has... his HKA is just a punch, and why it is
>penetrating, I have no idea. Anyway, bad concept is a completely different
>message....
>

bing bing bing! out of badness comes goodness. tell
him to not use the darkness powers openly, just the hka.
get a different costume and use the teleport and the desolid
to turn up places- not openly, just come out of a previously
empty room, or escape from a burning building when nobody's looking.
then use the hka as a basis, call himself 'deathblow' or something,
if it's not too beardy tell him to learn martial arts to get a different
look to his combat. (say def strike, block, throw, kata with hka
if it won't put his cv's and stuff up to high). make clear to the
player that if he wants to pull this off, he has to not use his
distinctivly shadowy powers openly and be clever and
rp a different, fake, personality- i know, but it'll be a good way of
easing him into that style of play, hopefully.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:51:09 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: Is this legal?

At 10:18 PM 5/19/99 -0400, Scott A. Colcord wrote:
>Mitchel Santorineos wrote:
>> Now depending on how you use 0end and NCM this version would be cheaper.
>> Some people require the NCM to be bought down to 0end when buying down the
>> running/teleport. I don't. I believe the NCM is a special effect for the
>> character to go faster, since it has no good combat benefit, other than to
>> arrive first.
>
>This is actually the point I was leading up to:
>
>Many powers have 'adders' in them, where you can let the power do something
>for +X points. However, there is no clear way to determine whether or not
>advantages and/or limitation can or must be applied only to the base power,
>or to the base power and all adders. As an example, Change environment lets
>you double the radius for +5 points. Since these +5s end up comprising most

>of the cost of the power, I would make a player apply any desired advantages
>to them. Teleport locations would be an opposite example, since they are
>usually minor additions to the power. Teleport mass multipliers and NCMs
>fall a bit more into the Grey zone in between. I'm /hoping/ (Steve?) that
>5th edition will shed some light on this issue.

I have always assumed that 'adders' dont cost END and most of them don't
really take the same advantages (like reduced END).

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:10:47 -0500 (EST)
From: John Francis Meunier <jmeunier@indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: Is this legal?

Why the conclusion that some adders don't get computed in advantages/end
costs? You can specifically have advantages that apply to only advantages
or parts of powers, but unless you specify, I thought they apply.

JM


On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christopher Taylor wrote:

> At 10:18 PM 5/19/99 -0400, Scott A. Colcord wrote:
> >Mitchel Santorineos wrote:
> >> Now depending on how you use 0end and NCM this version would be cheaper.
> >> Some people require the NCM to be bought down to 0end when buying down the
> >> running/teleport. I don't. I believe the NCM is a special effect for the
> >> character to go faster, since it has no good combat benefit, other than to
> >> arrive first.
> >
> >This is actually the point I was leading up to:
> >
> >Many powers have 'adders' in them, where you can let the power do something
> >for +X points. However, there is no clear way to determine whether or not
> >advantages and/or limitation can or must be applied only to the base power,
> >or to the base power and all adders. As an example, Change environment lets
> >you double the radius for +5 points. Since these +5s end up comprising most
> >of the cost of the power, I would make a player apply any desired advantages
> >to them. Teleport locations would be an opposite example, since they are
> >usually minor additions to the power. Teleport mass multipliers and NCMs
> >fall a bit more into the Grey zone in between. I'm /hoping/ (Steve?) that
> >5th edition will shed some light on this issue.
>
> I have always assumed that 'adders' dont cost END and most of them don't
> really take the same advantages (like reduced END).
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:50:18 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero

Hmmm I thought warriors have a base advantage they dont have to pay points
for armor and swords and bows and such... since mages have to spend their points
just to have magic to do those things( cause its there style and reason detre or
whatever)

The auxillary rule saying that magic providing armor effect doesn't combine with
mundane armor is a good idea I've heard.

Jason Sullivan wrote:

> On Wed, 19 May 1999 MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
> > Unless allowed by the GM, Fantasy Hero does not allow power frameworks to be
> > used. They tend to make beginning mages MUCH more powerful than starting
> > warriors, thieves, etc. Mages could justify the point saving features of
> > elemental pools, and / or the flexability of mulit and variable pools, while
> > the others mainly buy skills, perks, and characteristics.
>
> This is a special case scenerio where an NPC has what I refer to
> as a form of "True Magic," or 'natural' magic. I reserve VPP's for NPCs
> only, as they are usually Merlin-esque Uber Mages or Venger-esque Demon
> spawn.

>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:43:14 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: Is this legal?

>Why the conclusion that some adders don't get computed in advantages/end
>costs? You can specifically have advantages that apply to only advantages
>or parts of powers, but unless you specify, I thought they apply.

Well the logic being, if for example Non Combat Multiples dont cost END
they shouldnt pay for reduced END cost either


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:54:10 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: VPP & Fantasy Hero

At 09:30 PM 5/19/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 1999 MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
>> Unless allowed by the GM, Fantasy Hero does not allow power frameworks to be

>> used. They tend to make beginning mages MUCH more powerful than starting
>> warriors, thieves, etc. Mages could justify the point saving features of
>> elemental pools, and / or the flexability of mulit and variable pools, while

>> the others mainly buy skills, perks, and characteristics.
>
> This is a special case scenerio where an NPC has what I refer to
>as a form of "True Magic," or 'natural' magic. I reserve VPP's for NPCs
>only, as they are usually Merlin-esque Uber Mages or Venger-esque Demon
>spawn.

I use VPPs as the mechanic for all mages in my FH game. I find that by
limiting
them to spells I have created and they have learned, it is not unbalancing at
all.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:56:11 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: One character, two super IDs

At 11:14 AM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>One of my players has expressed an interest in having a second paranormal
>ID for the same character--his intent is that this 2nd identity could be
>used to infiltrate the criminal organizations that are responsible for this
>father's death.
>
>How would you do this? The character doesn't have any sort of variable
>power pool or variable special effects or anything, nor does he have
>multiform or disguise skill or anything. The only thing I've been able to
>come up with is for him to use his experience to buy gadgets which give him
>powers he doesn't normally have, then when he has enough of these he will
>be ready to pretend to be a different cape.
>
Well, I wouldn't require him to get new powers unless he wanted them. He
can pretend not to have a few powers he does have. Or not. After all, how
many heros/villians have basicly the same powers as someone else? Just
change the colors of your costume and change your name.

The gadgets angle works, too (especially if he's got the points and
contacts for it). After all, Dr. Henry Pym was YellowJacket and Antman
during his career (interestingly, both ID's were later assumed by other men).



============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:17:04 -0500
From: John Meunier <jmeunier@indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Is this legal?

I see where you are coming from. But I think there are a couple points that
are useful to think about.

1) Movement powers have their own system for figuring out END cost, based on
movement distance rather than active cost.

2) The rules specifically state that noncombat multiples don't cost extra
endurance.

3) Under advantages, the rules state "The END usage is based on the Active
Points in the Power, that is, the base Power and all advantages." (p.90,
paperback 4th edition.)

I conclude from all this that advantages and the additional characteristics
under the powers (+1" radius for +10 character points) do cost affect the END
required by each power, UNLESS the rules specifically rule out the END cost in
a particular instance.

The one other clear exception that I couldn't find rule support for, is in the
case of Reduced Endurance. In the case of the characters in the book, use of
the 1/2 End cost advantage does not increase the active points for determining
END cost. Solitare has in her multipower 50 point powers bought with the 1/2
End advantage. If the advantage were affecting the END cost, those powers
would cost 3 End to use, not 2. Of course, there is a very logical reason for
not making Reduced End affect the End cost of powers.

The general rule seems to be that if it affects the Active Cost, it increases
the End cost of a power that cost End to use in the first place.

JM

Christopher Taylor wrote:

> >Why the conclusion that some adders don't get computed in advantages/end
> >costs? You can specifically have advantages that apply to only advantages
> >or parts of powers, but unless you specify, I thought they apply.
>
> Well the logic being, if for example Non Combat Multiples dont cost END
> they shouldnt pay for reduced END cost either
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:51:45 -0700
From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: One character, two super IDs

Dark Champions has a new perk called "Deep Cover". It does what you have
been describing exactly. The only issue still open is you need to look/act
like someone else while in your Deep Cover persona ... unless maybe your two
persona's are from 2 completely different circles. I believe the cost for
Deep Cover is 2 points. It removes the need to have more than one secret id.
You can also have contacts which are limited to your deep cover.


Dave

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On
Behalf Of geoff heald
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 8:56 PM
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: One character, two super IDs


At 11:14 AM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>One of my players has expressed an interest in having a second paranormal
>ID for the same character--his intent is that this 2nd identity could be
>used to infiltrate the criminal organizations that are responsible for this
>father's death.
>
>How would you do this? The character doesn't have any sort of variable
>power pool or variable special effects or anything, nor does he have
>multiform or disguise skill or anything. The only thing I've been able to
>come up with is for him to use his experience to buy gadgets which give him
>powers he doesn't normally have, then when he has enough of these he will
>be ready to pretend to be a different cape.
>
Well, I wouldn't require him to get new powers unless he wanted them. He
can pretend not to have a few powers he does have. Or not. After all, how
many heros/villians have basicly the same powers as someone else? Just
change the colors of your costume and change your name.

The gadgets angle works, too (especially if he's got the points and
contacts for it). After all, Dr. Henry Pym was YellowJacket and Antman
during his career (interestingly, both ID's were later assumed by other
men).



============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 7:01:51 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: RE: <FHList> Spell power levels

> However, I have limited access to certain powers. I insist on images instead
> of invisibility and I don't allow straight armour or force fields with
> magic, it just makes the mages too untouchable.

So what defenses do you allow mages? Can they wear armor? Do they buy
PD,ED and BODY in a spell?


DonM.

- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ =
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:07:51 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: 5th edition changes

At 09:06 PM 5/19/99 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>
>
>HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 5/18/99 5:10:27 PM, jmeunier@indiana.edu writes:
>>
>> >What are the changes between 4th and 5th? I just dusted off my old 4th
>> >edition rules and am looking at organizing a campaign/recruiting some
>> >players. Are we all going to have vertigo when 5th comes out?
>> >
>>
>> None of the basic mechanics of the game are changing. All Characteristics
>> cost the same. A few powers have changed cost (notably Aid, which has
become
>> 10 points/d6), but most have the same cost. A number of powers have more
>> options, such as Enhanced Senses and Change Environment. Some "new"
>> Advantages and Limitations are present, though most have been seen
before in
>> Hero System Almanacs and other places. The most important change is a
>> thorough rewrite for clarity, and a whole lot of sample powers.
>>
>> Existing characters will generally need no changes to work under 5th
Edition
>> rules, but in many cases you may want to rewrite them in order to take
>> advantage of new options.
>>
>> =97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games
>
>Is it true that Hand Attack is also going up to 5 points per die ?
>I've been rewriting all my bricks under this assumption, please
>tell me this is correct. I'd hate to think HA is still a paltry 3 pts.
>

The word is that HA will be 5 points per die, but with a limitation. I
imagine it's a -1/2 limitation; this is how hand attacks were done prior to
the 4th edition.

Bill Svitavsky

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:03:48 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Magic VPP & END Pool

>84 60 point VPP: Offensive Magical Powers Only [No Defensive,
> Illusory, or Movement] (-1/4)

> What of Adjustment Powers, Entangles, Darkness, Density Increase,
>EGO Attack, Flash, Growth, and any other power I neglected to mention?

For -1/4, I would feel comfortable with allowing all of these powers. DI
and Growth are not really "Offensive" in my book, but it's your magic system.

> To fuel the magic, I am giving him an END pool. My questions are:
> How much END should be suficent to be effective in combat?

60 Active points means at least 6 END a Phase, multiply by his Speed to get
END/ Turn. FH combats I run tend to be 1-2 minutes, so enough to last 10
turns should be decent.

> Also, I want to place a limitation on the END Pool that will only
>Recover while out of combat. How much of a Limitation is this?

If the END Pool is big enough to last 5-10 Turns, and the Pool recovers
every post-12 that he is out of combat, I would give this a -1/4. If you
want a bigger limitation, how about "Does not recover after a Turn in which
the character spends END", which I would give -1/2.

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:10:09 -0500
From: "J. Stefanski" <jstefanski@iname.com>
Subject: The Phantom Menace

I took my kids to see The Phantom Menace yesterday and was happily
entertained. The special effects were great and the sound fantastic. I
loved the story and although the acting will not earn the movie an academy
award, it was thoroughly enjoyable.

My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"

Thanks,

JS

==========================================
There can BE only one!
==========================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 99 04:28:49 PDT
From: "Richard O'Marro" <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?

> > If there was evidence the house had been shot at, and if the police =

> >got no response when they tried simply pounding on doors, then they =

> >would have a reasonable cause to make their own entry into the house =

> >through whatever means they needed to make sure that there was no one =

> >injured or killed inside the building.
>
> yup-yup. They couldn't search anything. Anything lying in plain sight
> would be grounds to go and get a search warrant, right?
>
Right. They could only search places congruant to what they were looking=
for. i.e. if they're searching for injured people because the house has =
been shot up, going through drawers and kitchen cabinets and such is goin=
g too far because a human body GENERALLY is not going to fit in one of =
these places. Now if all the windows are shot out, adn then enter to make=
a Health and Welfare check and the livingroom is a mini Jungle full of =
pot plants or there's a case of handgrenades on the kitchen table, then =
they can pull out and get a search warrent for a more thurough search.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:03:52 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Is this legal?

>1) Movement powers have their own system for figuring out END cost, based on
>movement distance rather than active cost.
>
>2) The rules specifically state that noncombat multiples don't cost extra
>endurance.

This would be why I wouldn't use it, flat out.

>The general rule seems to be that if it affects the Active Cost, it increases
>the End cost of a power that cost End to use in the first place.

It would, unless the power is said not to cost END (NCM).

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:15:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace

On Thu, 20 May 1999, J. Stefanski wrote:

> My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
> champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"

I just posted Darth Vader to this list a week or so ago. Did you see it?

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:19:08 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

>> My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
>> champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"

Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...










...










...










...

When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut
through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
quite a while, as the door melts.

Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
do a lot of damage.

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:29:04 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

At 11:19 AM 5/20/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>>> My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
>>> champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"
>
>Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
[And another minor spoiler added by Bill]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>...
>
>When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut
>through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
>the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
>quite a while, as the door melts.
>
>Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
>do a lot of damage.
>

Yep. This movie established a lot more about Jedi than was known
previously. Considering this movie, I'd be inclined to build a young,
healthy Jedi in the Hero System with an extremely high SPD - maybe 6 or 7,
even in a heroic level game.

Bill Svitavsky

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

> >>> My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
> >>> champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"
> >
> >Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
> [And another minor spoiler added by Bill]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut
> >through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
> >the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
> >quite a while, as the door melts.
> >
> >Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
> >do a lot of damage.
> >
>
> Yep. This movie established a lot more about Jedi than was known
> previously. Considering this movie, I'd be inclined to build a young,
> healthy Jedi in the Hero System with an extremely high SPD - maybe 6 or 7,
> even in a heroic level game.

Yeah, my Darth Vader sure is showing his age and cybernetics, isn't he?

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:43:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
> Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
> When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut
> through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
> the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
> quite a while, as the door melts.
>
> Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
> do a lot of damage.
>
> Geoff Speare

In the Guide to the Phantom Menace Vechiles, Creatures, and
Equipment, the "old" lightsabers are weaker than the "new" ones we see in
the original SW series... They short out in water because they lack
certain seals.

Just guessing, but they probally also have less focusing crystals
and less sophisticated power systems.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:46:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> At 11:19 AM 5/20/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
> >>> My question to the list is, "Has anyone put together a Jedi character for
> >>> champions? and if so what kind of limitations were used?"
> >
> >Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
> [And another minor spoiler added by Bill]
[ObAOL: Me too!]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut

Close. Qui-Gon Jinn.

> >through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
> >the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
> >quite a while, as the door melts.
> >
> >Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
> >do a lot of damage.

They also don't go through force fields. On the other hand, the fact that
the door was a blast door and made to withstand just about anything
suggests that the DEF of the material being cut through isn't much of an
issue. NND Does Body?

> Yep. This movie established a lot more about Jedi than was known
> previously. Considering this movie, I'd be inclined to build a young,
> healthy Jedi in the Hero System with an extremely high SPD - maybe 6 or 7,
> even in a heroic level game.

Plus lots of levels of Acrobatics and Superleap. I /really/ liked the
more athletic fighting style that was used in the film. Plus, the fight
choreographers remembered that the Jedi have more weapons than just the
lightsabers (like hands & feet...) One of the best moments in the fight
scene is when Maul gives Obi-Wan a "boot to the head" (SH-WHOMP!)

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:50:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

> > >Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
> > [And another minor spoiler added by Bill]
> [ObAOL: Me too!]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...
> > >
> > >When Qui-Gin Jonn (or whatever his name is) uses his lightsaber to cut
>
> Close. Qui-Gon Jinn.
>
> > >through the door at the start of the movie, it's interesting to see that
> > >the effect is not an instant cut: he has to hold the lightsaber there for
> > >quite a while, as the door melts.
> > >
> > >Conclusion: Lightsabers can't instantly cut through everything, they just
> > >do a lot of damage.
>
> They also don't go through force fields. On the other hand, the fact that
> the door was a blast door and made to withstand just about anything
> suggests that the DEF of the material being cut through isn't much of an
> issue. NND Does Body?

I used AVLD, Does BODY and defined the defense as force screens and the
like.

> > Yep. This movie established a lot more about Jedi than was known
> > previously. Considering this movie, I'd be inclined to build a young,
> > healthy Jedi in the Hero System with an extremely high SPD - maybe 6 or 7,
> > even in a heroic level game.
>
> Plus lots of levels of Acrobatics and Superleap. I /really/ liked the
> more athletic fighting style that was used in the film. Plus, the fight
> choreographers remembered that the Jedi have more weapons than just the
> lightsabers (like hands & feet...) One of the best moments in the fight
> scene is when Maul gives Obi-Wan a "boot to the head" (SH-WHOMP!)

Darth maul was too cool. Pity he didn't survive.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:14:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: SW: TPM

A comment from a friend:

Ani's busy revving up the powerful POD-5...
Go Speed Ani, Go Speed Jedi, Go Speed An-ni, GO!

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Phantom Menace -- SPOILER

> > >Phantom Menance spoiler (minor, not plot)...
> > [And another minor spoiler added by Bill]
> [ObAOL: Me too!]
[...probably not much of a spoiler at this point, but you never know...]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >...

Dr. Nuncheon writes:
> On Thu, 20 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> > Yep. This movie established a lot more about Jedi than was known
> > previously. Considering this movie, I'd be inclined to build a young,
> > healthy Jedi in the Hero System with an extremely high SPD - maybe 6 or 7,
> > even in a heroic level game.
>
> Plus lots of levels of Acrobatics and Superleap. I /really/ liked the
> more athletic fighting style that was used in the film. Plus, the fight
> choreographers remembered that the Jedi have more weapons than just the
> lightsabers (like hands & feet...) One of the best moments in the fight
> scene is when Maul gives Obi-Wan a "boot to the head" (SH-WHOMP!)

SPD 6 or 7, I wouldn't be surprised, particularly given that the
jedi fighting style is based to a great extent on japanese sword style
martial arts. I once built a superheroic aikijujutsu martial artist
and quickly concluded I'd need either wild martial arts rules or SPD 12.

A lot of japanese martial arts place an incredible amount of
reliance on "mai-ai", roughly translated as 'timing and distancing.'
This happens to be part of what I don't *like* when I practice and
study martial arts in real life, but if you take the mai-ai as a given
(something I'd hesitate to do in real life) in Champions terms it
works out to incredible SPD - but SPD with a tactical SFX rather than
a physical SFX.

For example, the art I was trying to model above specifically
practices a whole subset of maneuvers and techniques designed to
"attack before the attack", i.e. launch an attack after the opponent
has committed to an attack, but before the attack has a chance to
succeed, in the process interrupting the attack. This doesn't mean
the martial artist in question is blindingly fast, but that he or she
has trained to recognize that split second and to make the proper
counter-attack. How "realistic" this is on an everyday level is
something I could debate, but in a superheroic (or even heroic) HERO
game the only way I can see to build this involves some funky uses of
limited DEX and/or SPD.

There're also whole schools of traditional japanese sword arts
(iajutsu and subsequently iado) devoted solely to drawing and cutting
with a sword in the above situation - since, in theory, using a
fastdraw in a sneak attack is something you would never do, since it's
dishonorable, but you would have to be prepared to react to dishonor
on the part of others).

Another example of this issue, also perhaps applicable to both a
jedi and an aikijujutsu practictioner: A very high DCV could be due to
fast reflexes and dodging - or it could be due to a very good sense of
where a strike will be and skill in moving just slightly, either due
to training and experience (mai-ai) or to using intuitive "force"
sense.

The "body actor" for Darth Maul, in case anybody cares, was
played by a 22-year-old competition wushu stylist. I haven't seen it
yet, but I assume he had a more flashy style. The lines were all
dubbed in. For an _excellent_ (and completely non-cheesy, no fights
to the death, etc) movie about wushu style martial arts, starring
"Master Pan, the Iron Fist of China", go rent _Iron and Silk_.

Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #352
*****************************


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