Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 381

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 5:18 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #381


champ-l-digest Tuesday, June 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 381



In this issue:

Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: AoE EGO Blast
Re: Earthquakes?
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Hexless Combat
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Instant Change
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Instant Change
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Swapping stats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 08:34:50 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?

Michael Sprague wrote:
>
> >While it is true that this system would less-penalize the attacks
> >of a faster hero, the old one penalized the slower hero even worse!
> >Flashed for 3 phases is bad when you have a 5 Spd, not that horrible
> >at a 6, but downright
> >shattering if you only have a 3! This is more fair, I feel.
>
> Fair? I disagree! What is "fair" about penalizing the guy who pays more
> points more then the guy who pays less?
>
> In the old system, a slower hero was _not_ penalized any worse ... both
> characters would lose the same number of Phases. The slower character was
> half DCV longer. Now the faster character loses more phases, but both are
> half DCV for the same length of time.
>
> Note however that _players_ of low Speed characters will not be as
> frustrated with the new rules when their character gets flashed. That may
> be more important then what is fair or is not.
>
> Damn! The more I argue this, the less I dislike the new rule. :-)

One thing I notice is that the slower characters can just start a delay and
with low numbers of flash they won't even lose a phase.

- -Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 11:46:17 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?

>One thing I notice is that the slower characters can just start a delay and
>with low numbers of flash they won't even lose a phase.

Then you get to play fun mind games to make him use his action:

"Okay Megaguy, hit him with the Haymaker now, he's Flashed!"

"Alright, everyone coordinate...now!"

:)

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:20:08 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser

>I'll agree that sort of thing depends a bit on SFX, but what you've
>described sounds more like Darkness than a Flash to me. I don't have a
>problem with Darkness or Invisibility againsts only a single sense. (Though
>even there, some of them get _very_ odd...Discriminatory Smell but not
>Tracking Smell?)

That goes into the more magical flash (my spell blocks your ability to tell
what creature is what, but given a certain scent you can still FOLLOW it).
Or Stan Lee science (my Discrominator will keep him from knowing who is who
by smell!!).

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:24:38 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: AoE EGO Blast

<html>
&gt;&gt;&gt; How would an AoE: One Hex EGO Blast function?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=A0=A0 With great difficulty.=A0 I wouldn't allow an AoE attack vs E=
CV
unless it<br>
&gt;&gt;were either Selective or Non-Selective.=A0 Without that, it'd be
useless.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;??? Why is that? I don't see any real problems with it.=A0 Area Effect
Mental<br>
&gt;Powers are seen in comics quite frequently.<br>
<br>
I wouldn't allow a single hex mental blast, allow me to post my Mental
Area Effect rules that I got from various sources and annotated: <br>
<br>
AREA EFFECT (MENTAL) - This area effect is not limited by space, rather
by the number of minds effected. A mental area effect uses the mind scan
modifiers as to how many minds the mentalist can effect. Only those that
the mentalist can perceive can be effected however. This can be combined
with Mind Scan to effect a large number of targets from a great distance.
This advantage is inherently selective but only one roll is made and
those that the mentalist fails his attack roll on are not effected.=20
<br>
<br>
EXAMPLE: Mind Melder uses his telepathic powers to send a message to
everyone around him. He rolls to hit, adjusted by the number of people he
is trying to affect (20) as seen at the Mind Scan chart. This modifier is
- -2, and only those with an ECV of equal or lower than the roll results in
are effected by this telepathic message. <br>
<br>
+1 Advantage<b> <br>
<br>
</b>This has not been playtested but the theory seems very sound.
<BR>
<br>
<div>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- ---</div>
<div>Sola
Gracia<x-tab>&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Sola
Scriptura<x-tab>&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Sola
Fide</div>
<div>Soli Deo Gloria&nbsp;&nbsp; <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Solus
Christus<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Corum
Deo</div>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
</html>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:34:55 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Earthquakes?

At 02:53 PM 6/7/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>So...
>
>how would you define an earthquake in Hero terms? I havea creature that
>can create such things, and I'm trying to decide between TK or Energy
>Blast.
>
>Any other ideas?

I built it using a huge HTA area effect with increased knockback. This
damaged only structures that were attached (like trees, buildings, etc) and
did the knockback ONLY TO KNOCK DOWN to free standing structures. It was
restricted to the ground (the area effect was radius but not in the air).

Seems to work well, rips apart buildings and stuff, doesnt hurt anyone
unless a tree falls on them.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:36:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?

On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Mark Lemming wrote:
> Michael Sprague wrote:
> >
> > >While it is true that this system would less-penalize the attacks
> > >of a faster hero, the old one penalized the slower hero even worse!
> > In the old system, a slower hero was _not_ penalized any worse ... both
> > characters would lose the same number of Phases. The slower character was
> > half DCV longer. Now the faster character loses more phases, but both are
> > half DCV for the same length of time.
> One thing I notice is that the slower characters can just start a delay and
> with low numbers of flash they won't even lose a phase.

Hm. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the primary purpose
of Flash is to make people lose phases, and that's why a lot of them are
getting upset when they hear about the new ruling. Personally, I think
the primary purpose of Flash is to disrupt someone's senses, which it
still does, and in a way that makes more sense than it did previously.

As for Flash penalizing high-SPD characters more now: I don't agree.
You're at 1/2 DCV for the same amount of time as the low SPD characters.
Flash doesn't actually cause you to /lose/ any actions - you're just
limited in the actions you can take, but you still get to take each and
every one of those actions, which means you still have a benefit over the
lower-SPD person. Just because you're Flashed doesn't mean you have to
stand there like an idiot doing nothing...

Would anyone say that Darkness penalizes high-SPD characters more than
low-SPD ones?

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:38:44 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat

At 11:22 PM 6/7/99 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
>
>> At 05:43 PM 6/6/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> >>
>> >Home Depot also carries those large flat wall tiles to do bathtub
>> >walls/showers in, giving a smooth surface that is immune to almost
>> >anything. You could even glue them to a sheet of metal.
>>
>> Hey, cool! Now we can play Champions while showering! ;-]
>
>I'll suggest it to my wife.:)
>

>Who, incidentally, I met due to a game of Illuminati. Close enough?

I'll inform the Gnomes of Zurich of this...

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:41:36 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

>> You can't use Transfer on yourself.

To my knowlege the only power you cannot use on yourself is Transform, as
it specifically STATES this to be the case.
>
>Why, just because it says that it works on opponents? If so, I have often
>been at odds with myself. For that matter I have been told that I am my own
>worst enemy.

hee hee :)



- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:43:39 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

>| Just because it says "opponent"? So you can't Drain yourself either?
>
>Exactly.

I'm not sure its so clear. The only power that specifically states you
cannot use it on yourself is Transform. Since they saw fit to put that in
the power and not others, it seems to be precedent that by default powers
DO work on you unless otherwise stated.
>
>| I admit that Transferring yourself isn't a very USEFUL thing to do,
>| but I don't see why it should be disallowed.
>
>Because it duplicates the effect of Multipower.

Sort of but should I point out again how using Shapeshift+Power Pool
duplicates Multiform (ooooops)

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:07:28 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?

At 11:46 AM 6/8/1999 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>
>>One thing I notice is that the slower characters can just start a delay and
>>with low numbers of flash they won't even lose a phase.
>
>Then you get to play fun mind games to make him use his action:
>
>"Okay Megaguy, hit him with the Haymaker now, he's Flashed!"
>
>"Alright, everyone coordinate...now!"
>
>:)

This is cruel... clever, but cruel... I love it! :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Sarrusophone

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:16:46 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 07 Jun 1999
| Obviously to simulate Transfer you'd want the 'self only' limitation on
| the Aid. I (and, I think, most GMs) would allow a -0 modifier to be put
| onto the Aid: 'roll is automatically the same as the Drain roll' since it
| would basically balance out.

I would not. It sets a bad precident for things like linked powers used
offensively getting the same modifier.

[...]
| If you have Side Effects, I think you /are/ your own opponent.

Then Side Effects would require an attack roll.

| Or, technically, if you have Side Effects, you're not 'using a power' on
| yourself, since you don't actually have the Drain power...

Exactly.

| Although, I have to wonder: why would you /stop/ someone from Draining
| (or, heck, even Transferring) themselves? Would you stop someone from
| using an EB or RKA on themselves, too?

It is not the use of the power, it is the abuse of the power.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:23:11 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| So, anyone with Drain or Transfer automatically gets Personal Immunity
| free? No? Then how do you explain the guy with AoE Drain who cannot
| Drain himself? He has Personal Immunity, no?

AoE is a power modifier, which modifies the way the power functions. In
this case, he is not using the power on himself, he is standing in the area
of effect of the power and is thus automatically affected by it. This is a
facet of how AoE works, not the Drain.

[...]
| Let me see here. I can have increases in power in circumstance X. I
| can have decreases in power in circumstance X. But I can't have both
| without Multipower? Gee, that really screws up my wizard in that
| Fantasy Hero game that doesn't allow constructs.

Yup. Bitch at your GM.

| If it were a power in an Elemental Control, it would require I put a
| Multipower in an Elemental Control, also illegal.

Aid Str, Side Effect: Drain Int.

| Your argument, even if it were valid, still wouldn't apply to your
| claim you can't Drain yourself. Or explain why you can Aid yourself
| when you can't Drain or Transfer on yourself.

So, you really wouldn't mind me using Transform on myself, either?

[...]
| 1) It still duplicates the effect of Multipower. Therefore, by your
| argument, forbidden.

Huh? Transform vs Aid + Drain does not duplicate Multipower, since
Multipower has no effect whatsoever on someone else.

| 2) The similarities are so great that I cannot see why one should be
| allowed and the other forbidden.

That is exactly why "the other" is forbidden: Aid + Drain used this way
is specifically to duplicate the effects of Transfer.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:27:25 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| I'm not sure its so clear. The only power that specifically states you
| cannot use it on yourself is Transform. Since they saw fit to put that in
| the power and not others, it seems to be precedent that by default powers
| DO work on you unless otherwise stated.

The reason is because Transformation in the fourth edition can be used to
give the target powers and abilities it does not normally have, without
restriction. To wit, you can give an otherwise normal, 0-point person,
billions of points worth of powers with nothing more than a 60 point
Transformation.

In general, if you want more of something for yourself, you buy it with
character points.

[...]

| Sort of but should I point out again how using Shapeshift+Power Pool
| duplicates Multiform (ooooops)

Actually, no, it does not, and if you think about it for a moment or five
you can see it.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:34:07 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change

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* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| 1. Steve Long already said that Instant Change was becoming a subset
| of Transformation.

My differences with Steve are legendary. :)

| 2. Nothing you said explains why I can't, in your opinion, change my
| power suit into pajamas.

You cannot use Transformation to give yourself powers you do not have.

| 3. Why do you assume he didn't pay for the armor?

Because I do not agree with the idea of making Instant Change a subset of
Transformation. It leads to exactly this kind of confusion.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:44:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 07 Jun 1999
> | Although, I have to wonder: why would you /stop/ someone from Draining
> | (or, heck, even Transferring) themselves? Would you stop someone from
> | using an EB or RKA on themselves, too?
>
> It is not the use of the power, it is the abuse of the power.

OK, what exactly is abusive about using Transfer (or Drain) on yourself?
It seems to me to be /less/ abusive than self only Aid + Drain - it
certainly costs more as a base power, and you could easily tweak the
limitation value of a 'self only' Transfer to amekt he cost more or less
equivalent.

Now that I think about it, using Transfer on one's self doesn't actually
duplicate Multipower very much at all:

* You can't control the exact amount that is shifted.
* You can't shift back at will - you have to wait for the fade to set in.
* It takes a 1/2 phase attack action to perform (ending your phase).

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:49:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 07 Jun 1999
> | Obviously to simulate Transfer you'd want the 'self only' limitation on
> | the Aid. I (and, I think, most GMs) would allow a -0 modifier to be put
> | onto the Aid: 'roll is automatically the same as the Drain roll' since it
> | would basically balance out.
>
> I would not. It sets a bad precident for things like linked powers used
> offensively getting the same modifier.

Is that a bad thing? Sure, when you get a good roll, it'll be twice as
good, but when you get a bad roll, you don't have the chance that your
linked power will get a decent roll. It's no more abusive than linked
powers are in general, and the penalties are exactly the same as the
benefits.

In some cases the SFX might make sense, too: the classic 'arrow through
the body pinning them to a wall' - the more BODY you do, the better the
entagle ought to be.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 16:08:49 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| OK, what exactly is abusive about using Transfer (or Drain) on yourself?
| It seems to me to be /less/ abusive than self only Aid + Drain - it
| certainly costs more as a base power, and you could easily tweak the
| limitation value of a 'self only' Transfer to amekt he cost more or less
| equivalent.

It is still a cheap way of doing something that can be done more cleanly
with Multipower or Side Effects (which depends on SFX and campaign).

| Now that I think about it, using Transfer on one's self doesn't actually
| duplicate Multipower very much at all:

| * You can't control the exact amount that is shifted.

No, but the ammount shifted is perfectly linear, just as a Multipower would.

| * You can't shift back at will - you have to wait for the fade to set in.

This is true.

| * It takes a 1/2 phase attack action to perform (ending your phase).

Only if you need to make an attack roll to hit yourself, which you do not.
It is the attack roll that costs the 1/2 phase action, not the use of the
power. Using (activating) the power is a 0-phase action. The real
difference is that this can be done either at the start or the middle of
your action phase, whereas Multipower can be shifted only at the start.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 16:14:38 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| Is that a bad thing? Sure, when you get a good roll, it'll be twice as
| good, but when you get a bad roll, you don't have the chance that your
| linked power will get a decent roll. It's no more abusive than linked
| powers are in general, and the penalties are exactly the same as the
| benefits.

It can be when you roll a couple of smallish Killing Attacks together.

| In some cases the SFX might make sense, too: the classic 'arrow through
| the body pinning them to a wall' - the more BODY you do, the better the
| entagle ought to be.

The logic does not follow. A spike throught the wrist will be a nearly
perfect pin that does relatively little physical damage to the victim (the
ancient Romans knew this well).
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:32:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | OK, what exactly is abusive about using Transfer (or Drain) on yourself?
>
> It is still a cheap way of doing something that can be done more cleanly
> with Multipower or Side Effects (which depends on SFX and campaign).

But it's more expensive than either...why do you say it is 'cheap'? For
15 points, I can buy 1d6 Transfer INT to STR. It costs me END, and I can
only transfer 6 points. To do the same thing in a Multipower (which gives
me more control and costs no end) would only cost me 6 points for the pool
and 1 for each slot.

I agree that it's generally cleaner to do it with Side Effects, but
really...if I have a magic wand that can drain energy from people to
replenish its power (Transfer END to END Reserve), why wouldn't I be able
to turn it on myself? Or, why would I need to buy another power to be
able to do so?

> | Now that I think about it, using Transfer on one's self doesn't actually
> | duplicate Multipower very much at all:
>
> | * You can't control the exact amount that is shifted.
>
> No, but the ammount shifted is perfectly linear, just as a Multipower would.

Er...so? I think the ability to control the exact amount is a bit more
generally useful. And it's still a difference.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:35:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | Is that a bad thing? Sure, when you get a good roll, it'll be twice as
> | good, but when you get a bad roll, you don't have the chance that your
> | linked power will get a decent roll. It's no more abusive than linked
> | powers are in general, and the penalties are exactly the same as the
> | benefits.
>
> It can be when you roll a couple of smallish Killing Attacks together.

Could you give a more detailed example? I'm afraid I don't see what
you're getting at.

> | In some cases the SFX might make sense, too: the classic 'arrow through
> | the body pinning them to a wall' - the more BODY you do, the better the
> | entagle ought to be.
>
> The logic does not follow. A spike throught the wrist will be a nearly
> perfect pin that does relatively little physical damage to the victim (the
> ancient Romans knew this well).

The more BODY you do, the deeper the arrow penetrates into the wall, and
the harder it is to yank out. Shooting through the wrist would be a good
example of the Hit Location tables, and only getting 1/2 BODY for limb
hits. (Or is that just hand hits? I forget...)

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:29:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change

At 03:34 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
>| 1. Steve Long already said that Instant Change was becoming a subset
>| of Transformation.
>
>My differences with Steve are legendary. :)

While this is not untrue, they're about to become differences with the
officially published rules set. :-]

>| 2. Nothing you said explains why I can't, in your opinion, change my
>| power suit into pajamas.
>
>You cannot use Transformation to give yourself powers you do not have.

I don't see how that answers the question. Do pajamas have powers that
a power suit would not?

>| 3. Why do you assume he didn't pay for the armor?
>
>Because I do not agree with the idea of making Instant Change a subset of
>Transformation. It leads to exactly this kind of confusion.

Well, it's there. As noted above, it's becoming a part of the
officially published rules set, which also means that Steve P and Bruce H
(and presumeably George M and Will R) also go along with it.
Hey, I don't agree with giving everyone with Telekinesis (who doesn't
take a Limitation) a free Energy Blast, but that's apparently how it's
going to stay, and I have to just deal with it.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:33:02 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

At 04:08 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>| * It takes a 1/2 phase attack action to perform (ending your phase).
>
>Only if you need to make an attack roll to hit yourself, which you do not.
>It is the attack roll that costs the 1/2 phase action, not the use of the
>power. Using (activating) the power is a 0-phase action. The real
>difference is that this can be done either at the start or the middle of
>your action phase, whereas Multipower can be shifted only at the start.

Does using Aid on oneself, then, not require an attack roll and get to
be used as a zero-phase action? Or how does that work, in your campaign?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:34:40 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

At 04:14 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
>| Is that a bad thing? Sure, when you get a good roll, it'll be twice as
>| good, but when you get a bad roll, you don't have the chance that your
>| linked power will get a decent roll. It's no more abusive than linked
>| powers are in general, and the penalties are exactly the same as the
>| benefits.
>
>It can be when you roll a couple of smallish Killing Attacks together.

I don't follow this. Either the dice roll good, or they roll poorly. I
don't see how it matters what kind of Power it's rolling for.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 16:44:41 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| But it's more expensive than either...why do you say it is 'cheap'?
| [...]

Cheap not in cost but in concept. But, if it does cost more than doing it
right, why would anyone want to do it this way?

| I agree that it's generally cleaner to do it with Side Effects, but
| really...if I have a magic wand that can drain energy from people to
| replenish its power (Transfer END to END Reserve), why wouldn't I be able
| to turn it on myself? Or, why would I need to buy another power to be
| able to do so?

Because you did not pay character points for something you routinely have.
If you did not pay for it, you do not have it; if you want it, pay for it.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 16:53:25 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| Could you give a more detailed example? I'm afraid I don't see what
| you're getting at.

2D6 HKA (steel claws) + 2D6 RKA (electrified claws). I luck out and roll
12 Body and a 6 on the Stun multiplier on the HKA. That's 12 Body twice
and 60 Stun twice. Mathematically, you are giving a 1:46656 event the same
probability as a 1:216 event.

[...]
| The more BODY you do, the deeper the arrow penetrates into the wall,

The more Body you do, the more *damage* to the victim and the wall you do,
which is wrong: driving a spike through someone's wrist into a tree will
pin him permanently to the while doing maybe 1 Body to his arm and maybe 2
or 3 to the tree. That is exactly how the ancient Romans crucified people.

- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jun 1999 16:53:44 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| Could you give a more detailed example? I'm afraid I don't see what
| you're getting at.

2D6 HKA (steel claws) + 2D6 RKA (electrified claws). I luck out and roll
12 Body and a 6 on the Stun multiplier on the HKA. That's 12 Body twice
and 60 Stun twice. Mathematically, you are giving a 1:46656 event the same
probability as a 1:216 event.

[...]
| The more BODY you do, the deeper the arrow penetrates into the wall,

The more Body you do, the more *damage* to the victim and the wall you do,
which is wrong: driving a spike through someone's wrist into a tree will
pin him permanently to the while doing maybe 1 Body to his arm and maybe 2
or 3 to the tree. That is exactly how the ancient Romans crucified people.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:55:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | But it's more expensive than either...why do you say it is 'cheap'?
> | [...]
>
> Cheap not in cost but in concept. But, if it does cost more than doing it
> right, why would anyone want to do it this way?

See below. I also don't believe that there's a 'right way' in this case -
if you want the ability to have the effects of Transfer (the random
nature, the fade rate) then it is better to buy it as Transfer than as
Multipower with bizarre limitations.

> | I agree that it's generally cleaner to do it with Side Effects, but
> | really...if I have a magic wand that can drain energy from people to
> | replenish its power (Transfer END to END Reserve), why wouldn't I be able
> | to turn it on myself? Or, why would I need to buy another power to be
> | able to do so?
>
> Because you did not pay character points for something you routinely have.
> If you did not pay for it, you do not have it; if you want it, pay for it.

But I /have/ paid character points for it. I paid for a Transfer from END
to END Reserve. I can use that on an enemy, I can use it on a teammmate
(hopefully a willing one), I ought to be able to use it on myself. I have
paid for the ability to take a targets END and put it into my END reserve.
Why should I have to pay again for the same power?

Does this mean that I could not use an HKA on myself? Is seppuku
impossible in Ninja Hero? If you can normally use attack powers on
yourself, why is Transfer an exception?

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:06:39 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?

Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>
> On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Mark Lemming wrote:
> > Michael Sprague wrote:
> > >
> > > >While it is true that this system would less-penalize the attacks
> > > >of a faster hero, the old one penalized the slower hero even worse!
> > > In the old system, a slower hero was _not_ penalized any worse ... both
> > > characters would lose the same number of Phases. The slower character was
> > > half DCV longer. Now the faster character loses more phases, but both are
> > > half DCV for the same length of time.
> > One thing I notice is that the slower characters can just start a delay and
> > with low numbers of flash they won't even lose a phase.
>
> Hm. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the primary purpose
> of Flash is to make people lose phases, and that's why a lot of them are
> getting upset when they hear about the new ruling. Personally, I think
> the primary purpose of Flash is to disrupt someone's senses, which it
> still does, and in a way that makes more sense than it did previously.

You're assuming that I'm against this ruling. I'm fairly indifferent to
it. My point was that there was a way for someone to take little penalty due
to rule quirks.

- -Mark Lemming

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:17:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

On 8 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | Could you give a more detailed example? I'm afraid I don't see what
> | you're getting at.
>
> 2D6 HKA (steel claws) + 2D6 RKA (electrified claws). I luck out and roll
> 12 Body and a 6 on the Stun multiplier on the HKA. That's 12 Body twice
> and 60 Stun twice. Mathematically, you are giving a 1:46656 event the same
> probability as a 1:216 event.

On the other hand: same power, you roll really badly: 2 BODY and a 1 on
the Stun Multiplier. That's 2 BODY twice and 2 STUN twice, also giving a
1:46656 event the same probability as a 1:216 event. It works both for
good and bad - the extremes are still the same, but the bell curve is just
a little flatter. I don't see this as a horrible problem.

If it only benefitied the character, I could see the objection. But since
it will be detrimental just as often as it will be beneficial, a +0
modifier sounds about right.

> [...]
> | The more BODY you do, the deeper the arrow penetrates into the wall,
>
> The more Body you do, the more *damage* to the victim and the wall you do,

OK, I'll grant this. But it's nitpicking the specific example and not the
concept. I'm sure there are other ideas where two linked powers should
have the same roll.

EB + Flash - the more intense the EB (i.e. more damage), the longer the
Flash will last.

HA + Aid - the harder you hit someone, the more benefit you get out of it
(sort of a reverse Absorbtion).

etc.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #381
*****************************


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