Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 404

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 8:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #404


champ-l-digest Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 404



In this issue:

RE: Draining Innate abilities
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Draining Innate abilities
Re: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
RE: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)
RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: dialects
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: Space Battleship
Re: Swapping stats
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: dialects
RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:41:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Draining Innate abilities

>> OTOH, if we include Innate (and, preferably, other, similar,
>> Advantages), then Mist is the one who pays for the immunity, rather
than
>> having the immunity for free.
>
>Actually, I have always MUCH preferred to give the attacker a
limitation
>to cover these things than make the defender pay for it. It goes with
>the idea of rewarding a well thought out character: the person who has
>an Affects Desolid EB that only affects certain classes of desolid is
>better

Agreed. Unfortunately, this results in people who pick especially 'good'
(i.e. rare) SFX are immune to all Drains not designed specifically for
them. This is definitely a benefit for the person buying the
Desolidification (or a problem, if you go with the same Desolid SFX
everyone else uses). It also rewards those people who create Drains with
particularly broad effects (i.e. virtually all superpowers have the same
source ("magic", "the power cosmic", "flux energies"), so he buys
"Drain: Desolid, SFX Suppresses magic/cosmic power/flux energies aimed
at making people Desolid"), in that they and they alone can stop the
Desolidification of The Specter with his spirit powers, Mist with his
mist powers, Phazon with his dimensional phasing powers, etc., etc.,
etc., all at the same time.

>(and, in fact, dumping Affects Desolid and just using the powers
>normal vulnerability has appeal).

Better.

>If you have a Power Drain Growth that
>wouldn't logically affect an elephant (and there are special effects
>that would), you get a small Limitation for it, probably (perhaps only
a
>-1/4 lumped together "reasonable" limitation).

There is no reason why the "Reasonable Limitation" shouldn't be the
default, while "Immune to most reasonable effects" shouldn't be paid
for.

>Ah, well. That's not the way the wind is blowing.

I wouldn't mind rewriting Drains to fit your idea, but it would take too
much work and entail too many changes to introduce into the game at this
late date. It is simpler to go with Advantages that benefit those who
are immune to Drain than to rewrite all Drains to fit the new mold.
Maybe not as satisfying, but simpler. It also saves arguments about how
much to pay for particularly effective, or how much to save from
particularly ineffective, SFX. ("But there are so few mist people, I
should get a -2 Limitation on my 'Cloud hardening ray'!")

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:00:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

From: Rodger Bright [SMTP:rodger.bright@cbpr.com]

>I was under the impression that "Usable Against Others" still requires
that the
>target be willing to be teleported.

You are mistaken. If that was the case, why pay for UAO, when UBO would
be both cheaper and at least as effective? UAO specifically bypasses the
need for permission, that is what Usable Against others means.

>There is no way (I could be wrong here) to
>teleport an enemy away, or else I would have 200" teleport and my only
>offenseive move would be to teleport the bad guys 200" in the air. If
they
>didn't have gliding or flight they would basically be dead. (Unless
they were
>of the super-brick variety).

Unfortunately, UAO does allow you to do exactly that. Which is why I
usually, on those cases where I actually allow such a thing, usually
involve the use of Transformation. If the UAO can readily kill people,
then it is Major, if it is inconveniencing, it is Minor, etc.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:06:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

Yep. But UAO does require a reasonably common set of powers or circumstances
that prevent the power from working. Until recently, I was playing a
character with teleport, UAO, and extra mass.

Curt



> From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
>
>
> From: Rodger Bright [SMTP:rodger.bright@cbpr.com]
>
> >I was under the impression that "Usable Against Others" still requires

> that the
> >target be willing to be teleported.
>
> You are mistaken. If that was the case, why pay for UAO, when UBO would
> be both cheaper and at least as effective? UAO specifically bypasses the
> need for permission, that is what Usable Against others means.
>
> >There is no way (I could be wrong here) to
> >teleport an enemy away, or else I would have 200" teleport and my only
> >offenseive move would be to teleport the bad guys 200" in the air. If
> they
> >didn't have gliding or flight they would basically be dead. (Unless
> they were
> >of the super-brick variety).
>
> Unfortunately, UAO does allow you to do exactly that. Which is why I
> usually, on those cases where I actually allow such a thing, usually
> involve the use of Transformation. If the UAO can readily kill people,
> then it is Major, if it is inconveniencing, it is Minor, etc.
>
> Filksinger
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Draining Innate abilities

>I disagree with this completely. You should always avoid Transform
>where something else exists to do it. If Drain Desolid is SFXed as a
>solidifying of molecular cohesion, it cannot effect the ghost.
>Likewise, if it's SFX is to pull ghosts back into this plane of
>existence, then it cannot effect Kitty Pride or Vision.

Unless you specifically give limitation value for these sorts of partial
Drains, all this sort of thing does in my experience is lead to 'shopping
for special effects', i.e. looking for the special effect that gives you the
broadest range of ability possible. I've never found applying significant
limitations at no charge just because 'the special effects demand it' gets
any kind of generally positive response.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:24:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)

At 02:08 PM 6/16/1999 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>
>Even if we agreed that Rat did originally intend to say that a Transfer
>turned upon yourself would just bounce, he has since indicated
>otherwise. Let's let him out gracefully.

What I think I'll do is forget about what he thinks on the topic, since
it seems to change hourly, and just give my idea on the topic.
I've been ruminating on the matter of attack powers affecting the owner
for a while, and what I think I'd rule is that, as a general guideline,
attack powers which are intrinsic -- that is, not bought through a Focus
Limitation -- cannot affect the owning character. A Power bought through a
Focus can affect the owning character, but because it is intrinsic to the
Focus it cannot affect the Focus (that is, a gun cannot shoot itself).
There can be exceptions to this, based on Special Effect, but the
consideration really balance out fairly closely (depending on the
campaign). On the one hand, if the attack can affect the character, then
the character can be Mind Controlled into attacking himself, or can hurt
himself accidentally; on the other hand, if it cannot, then he can't take
advantage of those (usually plot-related) situations where self injury (or
other self-attacks) can be beneficial or helpful.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

>I was under the impression that "Usable Against Others" still requires that the
>target be willing to be teleported. There is no way (I could be wrong here) to
>teleport an enemy away, or else I would have 200" teleport and my only
>offenseive move would be to teleport the bad guys 200" in the air. If they
>didn't have gliding or flight they would basically be dead. (Unless they were
>of the super-brick variety).
>

Uhm, I've known an awful lot of characters in Champs who wouldn't die from a
30D6 normal attack, and that's the maximum you could take from the fall.
Not to mention that a 200" UAO Teleport (which can, indeed, be used whether
the target likes it or not...that's the whole point of the distinction
between UAO and UBO) would cost, hmmm, about 800 character points. I can
find a hell of a lot easier ways to kill someone with an 800 point power.
Even if you assume you can do some two-step with non-combat multiples on the
teleport UAO, it's still cost around 90 at touch range, and presumeably have
some serious disadvantages to trying to set it up (the extra phase and so
on). I've seen any number of people with Teleport UAO, and while they can
be annoying, they're hardly deadly.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:43:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)

From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]

>At 02:08 PM 6/16/1999 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>>
>>Even if we agreed that Rat did originally intend to say that a
Transfer
>>turned upon yourself would just bounce, he has since indicated
>>otherwise. Let's let him out gracefully.
>
> What I think I'll do is forget about what he thinks on the topic,
since
>it seems to change hourly, and just give my idea on the topic.
> I've been ruminating on the matter of attack powers affecting the
owner
>for a while, and what I think I'd rule is that, as a general guideline,
>attack powers which are intrinsic -- that is, not bought through a
Focus
>Limitation -- cannot affect the owning character. A Power bought
through a
>Focus can affect the owning character, but because it is intrinsic to
the
>Focus it cannot affect the Focus (that is, a gun cannot shoot itself).

Hmm. I can see how this idea might be balanced, but making it the
default seems kind of weird. There are few enough SFX where you cannot
shoot yourself but take damage from reflection that I would have
problems with that being the default for most powers. Especially since,
except in the case of Personal Immunity, I find it hard to imagine most
superheroes with EB, RKA, HKA, etc., being unable to hit themselves.
I've gone through a half-dozen in my mind, and I cannot think of a
single one who could not shoot themselves if they wanted to, and those
who wouldn't then take damage all have Personal Immunity.

> There can be exceptions to this, based on Special Effect, but the
>consideration really balance out fairly closely (depending on the
>campaign). On the one hand, if the attack can affect the character,
then
>the character can be Mind Controlled into attacking himself, or can
hurt
>himself accidentally; on the other hand, if it cannot, then he can't
take
>advantage of those (usually plot-related) situations where self injury
(or
>other self-attacks) can be beneficial or helpful.

Rather than making either one the default, maybe you should make it like
Indestructible/Breakable in a Focus: You have to pick one or the other
when you buy the Power, but its your choice which one.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:52:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

From: shaw@caprica.com [SMTP:shaw@caprica.com]
>
>Uhm, I've known an awful lot of characters in Champs who wouldn't die
from a
>30D6 normal attack, and that's the maximum you could take from the
fall.

Including, assuming average damage, any character with 5 PD who makes a
successful Breakfall roll.

>Not to mention that a 200" UAO Teleport (which can, indeed, be used
whether
>the target likes it or not...that's the whole point of the distinction
>between UAO and UBO) would cost, hmmm, about 800 character points. I
can
>find a hell of a lot easier ways to kill someone with an 800 point
power.
>Even if you assume you can do some two-step with non-combat multiples
on the
>teleport UAO, it's still cost around 90 at touch range, and presumeably
have
>some serious disadvantages to trying to set it up (the extra phase and
so
>on). I've seen any number of people with Teleport UAO, and while they
can
>be annoying, they're hardly deadly.

That may be true now. However, if the 5th Ed has some method of easily
allowing very long range Teleportation, as has been reported, the
ability to Teleport people to deep space could be pretty bad.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:56:52 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: dialects

says Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com&>
>I'd like to have Canadian colloquialisms counted as well.
>
>pop, not soda

This actually varies geographically inside the US. It's "soda" in the North
Atlantic states, "pop" in much of the MidWest, etc. And, in some parts of
the South, for some reason, "coke" refers to any soda/pop, regardless of
flavor.

>mild means 'not too cold', usually used early in the spring

That's what it means here (New York Metropolotan area), too, at least when
applied to weather. (It's also commonly applied to spicy foods, as in hot,
medium, and mild).

>'down south' means Florida or Arizona, where you spend the winter if you're
>retired

Here, it means pretty much anything from Virginia South and Louisiana East.
Arizona isn't South, it's West. (FL and AZ are both places for retured
persons, though).

>cheerleading, as a hobby, is largely regarded as a stupid thing

It is for me, too.

>hose can be a verb as in 'Man, I'm so hosed!'

This is in use down here, too.

- -S

S A Rudy http://www.eclipse.net/~srudy
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what |
| feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist |
| whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from |
| a doormat or a prostitute." -- Rebecca West, 1913 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:03:52 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

says Terry Wilcox
>>Country-dependent spelling, like color vs colour. Meter is correct in the
>>US.
>
>I'm surprised by how many Americans had to point that out. US is correct in
>the US, but U.S.A is correct everywhere else,
>especially in countries named United States of Something Else.

We've also got the thorny problem of what to call ourselves, since,
technicallly, "American" could refer to anybody from this hemisphere. We
regularly take flak from Canadians and Mexicans in particular about that
("What, you think you're the only people on this continent?")

- -S



S A Rudy http://www.eclipse.net/~srudy
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what |
| feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist |
| whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from |
| a doormat or a prostitute." -- Rebecca West, 1913 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:33:04 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship

At 05:06 PM 6/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
>
> Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB depending.
>Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that are carried by
>the ship. The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun looked
>something
>like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge clips, 1 turrn to reload,
> Giving the WMG about a 23KM
>range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard hexes) and costs 107 points,
>********************

Worth pointing out that the Wave Motion Gun had recoil. The main engine
fired with the gun to counteract the recoil, but in one ep they disengaged
this function and used the gun to push the ship backwards.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:51:17 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

At 12:16 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
>| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".
>
>Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
>affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
>(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
>and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.

So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
a) Where in the rules does it say that?
b) Why the hell have we been arguing about what is or is not "normal"?


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:16:22 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 02:02 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| Next weeks lesson is on why water freezes at 0 and boils at 100.
>
>... it does? I thought water freezes at 273.15 and boils at 373.15.
>
>Oh, wait... you mean Centigrade! You really should use unit measurements
>if you do not mean absolute degrees. :)

You ninnies! Everyone knows that water freezes at 32 and boils at 212.

America-centric and proud (though I prefer metric for science), I measure
my height in feet, my weight in pounds, and my engine in cubic inch
displacement.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:16:43 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 02:10 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Oh Rat, you clever monkey! You've confounded my nefarious plans for a
>mind-bendingly dull lecture series on the metric system! It would have
>worked too if it weren't for you meddling kids!
>
>Yes, the degrees are in Celsius, 273.15 degrees off the Kelvin scale.
>
>Now, who knows what a hectare is?
>
Beats me. It's something those pesk Europeans use. I'll settle for an
acre (as in God's Little Acre) which is almost, but not quite, exactly
40,000 square feet.


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:55:37 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 03:02 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| (either that or 100 acres)
>

>Nope. The acre is an Imperial unit, a square area slightly larger than 2
>miles on a side.
>
Boy are you wrong. I grew up on 2 acres and it ain't nearly that big.
According to the guys at Sim City, their squares (200 feet on a side) are
almost an acre.

============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:09:11 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 03:54 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 01:35 PM 6/16/1999 -0600, Terry Wilcox wrote:
>> >> Right. How much mass does one cubic centimeter of water have?
>> >> Hint: This is how the base unit of mass is defined in the metric system.
>> >We don't use cubic centimetres these days. We use millilitres.
>> >And it's metre, not meter. A meter measures something, a metre is a
unit of
>> >length.
>> In the United States (and noplace else in the English-speaking world
>> that I'm aware of), it's meter.
>
> I happen to like English words: colour, flavour, aluminium, etc.
> ...they even have different game snacks than we do! (found that
>out in an issue of the UK RPG magazine "Arcane").
>
> Shall we compare Aussie/UK/American dialects and slang? :)
>
And that's hardly a compleat list.
(My high school English teacher used to circle it in red everytime I
spelled it that way. I went to her after class and said "You marked this
wrong and it isn't wrong" "But that isn't the standard spelling" "But it
isn't wrong. It isn't American, but it isn't wrong." "Well I didn't take
off points for it." "But you marked it wrong. And it isn't wrong" I could
be evil to teachers.)


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:16:02 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 12:58 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>> Right. How much mass does one cubic centimeter of water have?
>>> Hint: This is how the base unit of mass is defined in the metric
>system.
>>
>>We don't use cubic centimetres these days. We use millilitres.
>
>But _we_ do still use cubic centimeters, though not often.
>
For instance engine displacemnt on motorcycles. Rarely do I hear of a
motorcycle with a "Mighty, 1.1 liter engine" but they go on and on about
their "1100 cc's of butt kicking power".


>>How many Newtons do you weigh?
>
>Newtons are not a measure of weight.

Um, yes it is. Or rather, Newtons are a unit of force and so are pounds,
which are used to measure weight. Take your mass in kg and multiply by
9.8m/sec/sec.
Now, your weight in pounds if you live in 1G (as most of us do) translates
to roughly to mass in kg by dividing by 2.2 but that all depends on the
gravity.

============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:58:12 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 03:05 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In fact, a hectare is an area measuring 100m by 100m or 10 000 square
>meters. It comes out to something like 2.47104393 acres.
>
>Right. How much mass does one cubic centimeter of water have?
>Hint: This is how the base unit of mass is defined in the metric system.
>
>I'm having flashbacks to Grade 5 science.
>
One cubic centimeter, aka one mililiter, will hold water massing one gram.
Now will someone tell me how, basing a meter on some stick somewhere, these
guys stumbled on a measure so that an angstrom works out to an even number
of units?


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:25:17 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

At 04:09 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you not see that these archaic measurements will drag the U.S. into
>anarchy and darkness! Convert! My thoery is that the U.S. won't change to
>the metric system just to spite the French.
>

Well, if the British aren't up to the task.....

Seriously, while the wave of the future is metric, those pesky english
measures are going to be around for a while. I mean, the Standard Cargo
Container is based on the size of US trucks and US cargo pallets. American
Standard gauge for railroad tracks, which is also being adopted for things
like Japan's high-speed rail lines, is based on the distance between the
wheels on the steam engines we bought from England, which were in turn
based on the distance between the wheels on wagons, which were based on the
ruts in the roads, which were made by Roman chariots. Little did tha
ancient Romans guess when they fixed a chariot size based on the width of
two horses that they were setting a transport standard for the next 2000
years.


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:51:53 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Swapping stats

At 01:01 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
><snip>
>>
>> So far the only reason I've seen you give for a character not being
>able
>>to use Transfer on himself is that attacking oneself is not a
>>psychologically normal action, yet you've agreed that a gun turned on
>>oneself would certainly affect oneself. What makes Transfer different
>from
>>RKA in this respect?
>
>I _think_ that Rat has indicated that his position is that a person is
>not immune to their own Transfer, only that Transfer should not be used
>upon oneself as the intended purpose of the power.
>
>Filksinger
>

Close. He said it _could_ not be used in this way, not merely that it
_should_ not be used in this way. I think most of the people involved
agree that it should not be used this way, or at least bears harsh
scrutiny, but the lines of demarcation were over whether the rules forbid it.


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:51:00 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

At 02:08 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>>At 01:01 PM 6/16/1999 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
><snip>
>>>I _think_ that Rat has indicated that his position is that a person is
>>>not immune to their own Transfer, only that Transfer should not be
>used
>>>upon oneself as the intended purpose of the power.
>>
>> No, he stated outright in the part that I quoted (and you snipped),
>"You
>>cannot use Transfer on yourself."
>
>He has also stated outright that he did not state that, in unusual
>circumstances, you could not turn your damaging Powers, even Transfer,
>upon yourself. He has also said you could turn it on yourself, _in
>unusual circumstances_.
>
>Even if we agreed that Rat did originally intend to say that a Transfer
>turned upon yourself would just bounce, he has since indicated
>otherwise. Let's let him out gracefully.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
I'll let him out gracefully. A statement like:
I misspoke.
I didn't mean to say that.
I'm sorry for the mis-impression but that is not what I meant.

or:
I've changed my mind
Your arguments persuaded me
I was in error

But whether the error was in misspeaking or in the sentiment behind the
statement, an error was made, and he should, gracefully, acknowledge that.


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:42:58 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: dialects

At 04:45 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to have Canadian colloquialisms counted as well.
>
>a warm knit cap is a toque [pronounced too-k], not a ski hat

Where I'm from (New England), a warm knit cap is called a wool hat. A ski
mask may be worn like a wool cap, but it is long enough to pull down over
your face and has holes for your eyes and mouth.

>a now suit big enough for an adult is a sk'doo suit

That would be a snowmobile suit.

>a sk'doo is a snowmobile

That's true. At least in central New York, where they are common. In
Connecticut they were rare enough to not rate a colloquial term.

>'down south' means Florida or Arizona, where you spend the winter if you're
>retired

Florida yes, Arizona no. Arizona is in the South-west, whereas the South
refers to stuff on or east of the Mississippi.

>cheerleading, as a hobby, is largely regarded as a stupid thing

As a career, too.

>rye [eg. Canadian Club, Crown Royal] is whiskey made from rye grains

Not much of a drinker, but I think that's the term.

>'south of the border' means Buffalo <gag, what a hole>
we save that for Mexico. Different border.

>'the lake' or 'up north' is where your weekend cottage is

Only if it really is on a lake or in the North.

>a fishhut is a little plywood structure you drag out onto a frozen lake to
>sit in while you go ice fishing - not me, but some people do it

I don't ice fish and where I live you can't muster enough ice to interfere
with the fishing.
How about the US regional dialects. For instance, a peice of livingroom
furnature big enough to seat three. Do you call it a couch, sofa, or
davenport?


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

>
>From: shaw@caprica.com [SMTP:shaw@caprica.com]
>>
>>Uhm, I've known an awful lot of characters in Champs who wouldn't die
>from a
>>30D6 normal attack, and that's the maximum you could take from the
>fall.
>
>Including, assuming average damage, any character with 5 PD who makes a
>successful Breakfall roll.

Though that'll be a bit of a trick with a -15 penelty.

>
>>Not to mention that a 200" UAO Teleport (which can, indeed, be used
>whether
>>the target likes it or not...that's the whole point of the distinction
>>between UAO and UBO) would cost, hmmm, about 800 character points. I
>can
>>find a hell of a lot easier ways to kill someone with an 800 point
>power.
>>Even if you assume you can do some two-step with non-combat multiples
>on the
>>teleport UAO, it's still cost around 90 at touch range, and presumeably
>have
>>some serious disadvantages to trying to set it up (the extra phase and
>so
>>on). I've seen any number of people with Teleport UAO, and while they
>can
>>be annoying, they're hardly deadly.
>
>That may be true now. However, if the 5th Ed has some method of easily
>allowing very long range Teleportation, as has been reported, the
>ability to Teleport people to deep space could be pretty bad.

I suspect, given that they probably imported something like Fuzion's
Supersonic Flight for high speed flight, that it's a seperate power. At
that point you just don't allow it UAO.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:20:29 -0700
From: Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

I amd also trying to factor in a bit of realism, a 200 meter fall would (in
real life) kill just about anybody I know.

I run primarilly fantasy hero, and no matter how bad ass a PC is if he falls
that far he is almost as good as splattered. I just couldn't see an elf
fall 200 meters, make a breakfall roll, and take no appreciable damage, just
wouldn't happen. (I am assuming a fall in the open on top of a
perpendicular HARD surface).

- --Rodger

David Nasset wrote:

> From: shaw@caprica.com [SMTP:shaw@caprica.com]
> >
> >Uhm, I've known an awful lot of characters in Champs who wouldn't die
> from a
> >30D6 normal attack, and that's the maximum you could take from the
> fall.
>
> Including, assuming average damage, any character with 5 PD who makes a
> successful Breakfall roll.
>
> >Not to mention that a 200" UAO Teleport (which can, indeed, be used
> whether
> >the target likes it or not...that's the whole point of the distinction
> >between UAO and UBO) would cost, hmmm, about 800 character points. I
> can
> >find a hell of a lot easier ways to kill someone with an 800 point
> power.
> >Even if you assume you can do some two-step with non-combat multiples
> on the
> >teleport UAO, it's still cost around 90 at touch range, and presumeably
> have
> >some serious disadvantages to trying to set it up (the extra phase and
> so
> >on). I've seen any number of people with Teleport UAO, and while they
> can
> >be annoying, they're hardly deadly.
>
> That may be true now. However, if the 5th Ed has some method of easily
> allowing very long range Teleportation, as has been reported, the
> ability to Teleport people to deep space could be pretty bad.
>
> Filksinger

- --
Rodger Bright, Senior Network Engineer
Copithorne & Bellows
100 First Street 26th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
[415]-975-2251 Direct, [415]-284-5200 Main
[415]-243-9664 FAX, [888]-519-8546 Pager
rodger.bright@cbpr.com
rodger.bright.pager@cbpr.com (Alpha Paging)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:23:26 -0700
From: Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

I think a great power would be the ability to sacrifice some of one
characteristic or power to boost another one.

Very cool idea. I might just add that to some of my villians... hmmmm..

- --Rodger

geoff heald wrote:

> At 12:16 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
> >| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
> >| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".
> >
> >Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
> >affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
> >(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
> >and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
>
> So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
> a) Where in the rules does it say that?
> b) Why the hell have we been arguing about what is or is not "normal"?
>
> ============================
> Geoff Heald
> ============================
> Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
> your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
> to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

- --
Rodger Bright, Senior Network Engineer
Copithorne & Bellows
100 First Street 26th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
[415]-975-2251 Direct, [415]-284-5200 Main
[415]-243-9664 FAX, [888]-519-8546 Pager
rodger.bright@cbpr.com
rodger.bright.pager@cbpr.com (Alpha Paging)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:28:36 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

>I was under the impression that "Usable Against Others" still requires
that the
>target be willing to be teleported. There is no way (I could be wrong
here) to
>teleport an enemy away, or else I would have 200" teleport and my only
>offenseive move would be to teleport the bad guys 200" in the air. If they
>didn't have gliding or flight they would basically be dead. (Unless they
were
>of the super-brick variety).

I guess I just understood "against" to mean something they didn't have
control over. And yes, it is a pretty awful power if bought correctly, as
it should be.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:46:05 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@inetnebr.com>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)

Rodger Bright wrote:

> I amd also trying to factor in a bit of realism, a 200 meter fall would (in
> real life) kill just about anybody I know.
>
> I run primarilly fantasy hero, and no matter how bad ass a PC is if he falls
> that far he is almost as good as splattered. I just couldn't see an elf
> fall 200 meters, make a breakfall roll, and take no appreciable damage, just
> wouldn't happen. (I am assuming a fall in the open on top of a
> perpendicular HARD surface).
>
> --Rodger
>
> David Nasset wrote:

Skydivers have fallen out of Airplanes on to recently plowed dirt
estimated velocity at impact was less than terminal due to gliding
effects of their suit and partially controlled decent but not a lot less.
They survived knocked unconcious a couple of broken bones and lots
of bruises.

It can happen in real life with healthy lucky people, in games its a heros
mark of luck certainly a long ways from impossible... just as long as it is not
a standard thing
a perfectly healthy individual can slip and fall in the tub and die in minutes
too and the hero never will.

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #404
*****************************


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