Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 415

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 1:52 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #415


champ-l-digest Monday, June 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 415



In this issue:

Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410
Re: Top 5 things
Call for Sengoku, Usagi & San Angelo material
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Top 5 things
Follower vs Duplication Always On
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
TK tricks
Spirit rules
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Question about Concepts
Re: Question about Concepts
Re: Spirit rules
Re: Top 5 things
Ad&d to Hero
Re: TK tricks
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)
RE: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)
Re: Ad&d to Hero
Re: Ad&d to Hero

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:25:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 01:37 PM 6/20/1999 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> >How would you GMs rule on a power that doesn't have to use all its options
> >all the time?
> >
> >For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
> >turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
> >or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
>
> This is a really hard call. Generally, I'd just have the character take
> two Ultra slots, one with Invisibility with fringe and the other with
> Invisibility without fringe. This would especially be the case if the
> Invisibility was already going into a Multipower.

Unfortunately, there you're paying points for the ability to get a less
effective power...that seems to me to be a bit off-kilter. I would view
the Fringe part of Invisibility as sort of like NCM or dice of effect -
you don't *have* to use all of your NCM or your damage dice, and you don't
have to pay END or use MP pool points for the stuff you're not using -
rather than as an Advantage (which you *do* always have to use).

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:33:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:

> >For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
> >turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
> >or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
>
> No Fringe may be unique to Invisibility, but it's still an Advantage --
> because it looks and acts like one.

I disagree. It's a flat cost rather than one based on the cost of the
rest of the power, for one...

As a counterexample, take someone with Extradimensional movement. He buys
the options 'to any dimension' and 'to any time'. Dimension Master really
ought to be able to travel through time without having to travel to
another dimension to do so.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:31:43 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

At 06:25 PM 6/20/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>I would view
>the Fringe part of Invisibility as sort of like NCM or dice of effect -
>you don't *have* to use all of your NCM or your damage dice, and you don't
>have to pay END or use MP pool points for the stuff you're not using -
>rather than as an Advantage (which you *do* always have to use).

As I see it, the difference between NCM or dice of effect, and an an
Advantage, is that an Advantage adds some new dimension to the Power,
whereas the first two only allow it to to more of the same thing it does as
its base (unAdvantaged) level. Removal of the fringe effect seems to me to
be an Advantage on that basis: it changes something about how the Power works.

Damon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:53:11 -0700
From: "Ron Abitz" <abitz@richpoor.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

> At 06:25 PM 6/20/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >I would view
> >the Fringe part of Invisibility as sort of like NCM or dice of effect -
> >you don't *have* to use all of your NCM or your damage dice, and you
don't
> >have to pay END or use MP pool points for the stuff you're not using -
> >rather than as an Advantage (which you *do* always have to use).
>
> As I see it, the difference between NCM or dice of effect, and an an
> Advantage, is that an Advantage adds some new dimension to the Power,
> whereas the first two only allow it to to more of the same thing it does
as
> its base (unAdvantaged) level. Removal of the fringe effect seems to me
to
> be an Advantage on that basis: it changes something about how the Power
works.
>
> Damon

I do not see it that way. No fringe just makes you more invisible then the
base level just like the above modifiers do to their power.





Ron Abitz
abitz@richpoor.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:55:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

At 06:25 PM 6/20/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> This is a really hard call. Generally, I'd just have the character take
>> two Ultra slots, one with Invisibility with fringe and the other with
>> Invisibility without fringe. This would especially be the case if the
>> Invisibility was already going into a Multipower.
>
>Unfortunately, there you're paying points for the ability to get a less
>effective power...that seems to me to be a bit off-kilter. I would view
>the Fringe part of Invisibility as sort of like NCM or dice of effect -
>you don't *have* to use all of your NCM or your damage dice, and you don't
>have to pay END or use MP pool points for the stuff you're not using -
>rather than as an Advantage (which you *do* always have to use).

Actually, I'm pretty sure that taking Invisibility with No Fringe as an
ultra slot, plus Invisibility without No Fringe as a second ultra slot,
costs less than taking Invisibility with No Fringe as a multi slot.
This is why it's less of an issue with me if Invisibility is already
going into a Multipower. It's when it's not doing so that it's a hard call.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:08:11 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

At 04:53 PM 6/20/1999 -0700, Ron Abitz wrote:
>I do not see it that way. No fringe just makes you more invisible then the
>base level just like the above modifiers do to their power.

I can certainly see that reasoning -- or at least, I can see the fringe
around it. :)

But I think of it more like this:

Power: Invisibility makes a character invisible at distances of >1", but
detectable within that range with a successful PER Roll.

Advantage: Character is invisible at distances of <1" regardless of PER
Roll, +10 points.

It doesn't make the character "more invisible", it makes him invisible
under specific circumstances where he otherwise would not (or might not)
be. Affects Desolidified doesn't make an attack more penetrating or more
damaging, it just allows the attack to affect things it would not normally
affect.

Both the Affects Desolidified Advantage and the +10 "No Fringe Effect"
add-on allow the base Power to work in situations where it would not
function normally. That's why I think of both of them as Advantages,
despite the flat-cost pricing of No Fringe, or its placement in the Powers
section rather than the Advantages section. It's an Advantage unique to
Invisibility, so that's where it was written up.

Damon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:09:01 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

At 06:33 PM 6/20/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>
>> >For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
>> >turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30
points
>> >or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
>>
>> No Fringe may be unique to Invisibility, but it's still an Advantage --
>> because it looks and acts like one.
>
>I disagree. It's a flat cost rather than one based on the cost of the
>rest of the power, for one...

I don't see how that's relevant. An Advantage should be defined by what it
does to enhance a Power, not by the pricing scheme. I admit to a
near-total lack of familiarity with Fuzion, but doesn't it use flat-cost
add-ons (they may not be called Advantages, for all I know) for Powers?

>As a counterexample, take someone with Extradimensional movement. He buys
>the options 'to any dimension' and 'to any time'. Dimension Master really
>ought to be able to travel through time without having to travel to
>another dimension to do so.

Time *is* the other dimension in this case; he doesn't have to move to a
second /physical/ dimension in order to time-travel. Re-read the example
on page 68: 20 points for the base XDM Power, with a +20 point premium if
the XDM Power represents temporal, rather than mere spatial, movement.

It could be argued that the +20 cost for time travel doesn't act like an
Advantage or an add-on option at all, but represents an either/or choice:
20 points base cost for XDM(Spatial Version), or 40 points base cost for
XDM(Temporal Version). I'm afraid I don't see how this invalidates my
argument regarding Invisibility.

Damon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:49:25 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410

At 04:10 PM 6/18/99 EDT, GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/18/99 9:50:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org writes:
>
><< OK Champions 5th is comin out, >>
>
> No, folks. This is inaccurate. Please help Hero Games spread the truth. ;)

It would help if Hero Games could count.

> They are releaseing the 5th Ed. Hero System rule book.

If it *were* Champions, it would be 5 editions. This will be the SECOND
edition of the Hero System Rulebook (the /first/ edition HSR being part of
the *CHAMPIONS* 4th edition).

> Not "Champions" 5th. Hero System 5th.

Half right.

==

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:04:08 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@inetnebr.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

Say is anyone compiling these top 5 things... they seem to be the top 50 to 100
rewrites to balancing issues.... for Hero... make a good web page?

Lance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:06:01 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Call for Sengoku, Usagi & San Angelo material

We're looking for submissions for our web site. Submissions should be
1,000-3,000 word articles, adventures, fiction, HeroMaker or Creation
Workshop files of existant or new NPCs, gadgets and the like for any of the
the three lines mentioned above.

We're not paying for web site submissions, but if we like something enough
we may offer to put it into actual print, in which case you *would* get paid.
Our goal right now is to get some more Fuzion & Hero System content on our
web site, including fan-created work. Anyone want to lend a hand?

Feel free to pass this on to anyone you think might be interested, also.

Mark @ GRG

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:24:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers

On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
> At 06:33 PM 6/20/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
> >> >For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
> >> >turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30
> points
> >> >or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
> >>
> >> No Fringe may be unique to Invisibility, but it's still an Advantage --
> >> because it looks and acts like one.
> >
> >I disagree. It's a flat cost rather than one based on the cost of the
> >rest of the power, for one...
>
> I don't see how that's relevant. An Advantage should be defined by what it
> does to enhance a Power, not by the pricing scheme.

Well, it's not an Advantage, for one. It's not in the section for
Power Advantages, and therefore it's not subject to the same rules.

> I admit to a
> near-total lack of familiarity with Fuzion, but doesn't it use flat-cost
> add-ons (they may not be called Advantages, for all I know) for Powers?

Yeah, and GURPS uses a percentage system. The relevance in each case is
the same: neither GURPS nor Fuzion is HERO.

> >As a counterexample, take someone with Extradimensional movement. He buys
> >the options 'to any dimension' and 'to any time'. Dimension Master really
> >ought to be able to travel through time without having to travel to
> >another dimension to do so.
>
> Time *is* the other dimension in this case; he doesn't have to move to a
> second /physical/ dimension in order to time-travel. Re-read the example
> on page 68: 20 points for the base XDM Power, with a +20 point premium if
> the XDM Power represents temporal, rather than mere spatial, movement.

Yes. And 20 points for the base invisibility, with a +1- point premium if
the power represents invisibility w/o fringe.

> It could be argued that the +20 cost for time travel doesn't act like an
> Advantage or an add-on option at all, but represents an either/or choice:

It could equally be argued that the +10 cost for Invisibility acts the
same way.

Other examples of powers with additions that you don't always have to use:
Clairsentience (as for XDM)
Darkness (although you'll make the same argument here as for Invisibility)
Summon (you dont *have* to summon x2 creatures for 5 pts)
Teleport (you don't *have* to teleport additional mass)
Tunnelling (you don't *have* to fill in the tunnel behind you)

Examples of powers with Advantages you *do* have to use:
Dispel (+2 affects all Powers of a certain SFX)
Drain (adjusting return rate)

In fact, it seems to me that any time something is listed in the power
description as '+X Points' rather than '+1/X Advantage', it is not
supposed to be an advantage, and therefore shouldn't be subject to the
Advantage rules that says you must always use them.

In fact: "A character does not have to use a Power to its maximum
potential. A character can use any amount of his power, from zero to the
number of Character Points he has in the Power." (BBB 52)

It goes on to say that you must use all Advantages and Limitations...but
Advantage is a specific word with a specific definition in the HERO
system, and the 'no fringe' effect doesn't fall under that definition.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:51:09 -0400
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
> have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
> they had changed or added, whether they did or not?

My five:

1) Minimize the use of Transform by adding some of the obvious, but
missing, powers that it is typically used for:
a) An Adjustment Power (Impair?) to add disadvantages.
b) Make explicit how Drains can add Limitations to a power,
or Aid can add Advantages to a power.
c) A mechanism to allow non-absolute defenses to a power UAO.
My current dodge is to have the defense be "not yet
affected by my Cosmetic Transform".
d) Redefining many Phys Lims as selling back Everyman powers.
e) Increase the granularity of Transform (say 3,5,7,10,12 and 15
points per die) with better definition, for any
remaining cases that can't be avoided.
f) Avoid any temptation to increase the use of Transform.

I know that I will be a disappointed man in this respect. BTW, I am sure
that you couldn't guess that I dislike Transform, could you?

2) Resolve the Great Linked Debate. (done, as we all know)

3) Decouple Movement and Speed, at least as an optional rule. This can
be trivially done by buying movement powers on a per turn basis, say 1
pt buys 5"/turn for most powers, 10"/turn for Gliding, etc. Each phase,
a character may move a maximum of Movement/SPD, rounded up, but may move
no more than Movement in one turn. Pushing is required to exceed either
limit.

4) Adjustment powers: Resolve the great gap between +1/4 (one of a set
of powers) and +2 (all powers of a special effect) advantages. Also
include in the basic rules options for using Adjustment Powers to negate
or impose Limitations, add Advantages, etc.

5) Add a section: Examples and Discussion that includes a lot of the
nitty-gritty details of powers. This would keep the basic descriptions
clean, while addressing a lot of the thorny problems that may come up.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Limiting this to five was tough, but I think, on reflection, that most
of the unclear issues that irritate me would be well addressed by #5.

Robert A. West

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:03:29 -0400
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Follower vs Duplication Always On

As I understand the rules, a Follower is an NPC. The GM ultimately
dictates the character's actions. The problem is that, for a follower
who is almost always along, it is generally easier for the player to
handle the follower almost as if it were a PC. After a while, the
player comes to expect this as a right, and is angry when the GM does,
occasionally, actually have the NPC do something else.

The other option that I see, if the player wants full control, is to buy
Duplication Always On. This is extremely expensive, compared to the
Follower, and players seem to think they are paying points for
"nothing". For a 200-point secondary character:

Follower = 20 points (100 points base + 100 disadvantages)
Duplicate = 54 points (200 * 2/5 * 1/(1+1/2))

Note that the Duplicate, Always On, cannot be bought by a beginning
250-point character. Note also that while a dead Follower can be
replaced by buying another for +5 points, the points for a dead
Duplicate are gone permanently and irretrievably! In effect,
Duplication takes the Independent Limitation.

Any thoughts? Is anything happening in 5ed to change the rules on
Duplication (such as allowing the points to come back after a long
time)?

Thanks,

Robert A. West

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:11:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Robert A. West wrote:

> 1) Minimize the use of Transform by adding some of the obvious, but
> missing, powers that it is typically used for:
> a) An Adjustment Power (Impair?) to add disadvantages.

This is basically Transform, so I don't se the need for it.

> b) Make explicit how Drains can add Limitations to a power,
> or Aid can add Advantages to a power.

AFAIK, they can't. You can't Aid a power to give it Armor Piercing, for
example, or Drain just the 0 END from a power, either.

> c) A mechanism to allow non-absolute defenses to a power UAO.
> My current dodge is to have the defense be "not yet
> affected by my Cosmetic Transform".

This doesn't make sense to me. What are you trying to do?

> d) Redefining many Phys Lims as selling back Everyman powers.

How is this affected by Transform? I also think this is handled in the
new book.

> e) Increase the granularity of Transform (say 3,5,7,10,12 and 15
> points per die) with better definition, for any
> remaining cases that can't be avoided.

Well, since Hero powers are pretty much 5, 10, 15 points per die, I think
you're out of luck.

> f) Avoid any temptation to increase the use of Transform.
>
> I know that I will be a disappointed man in this respect. BTW, I am sure
> that you couldn't guess that I dislike Transform, could you?

Gee... whatever gave us *that* idea? Myself, I don't care. Transform is
not used very often (if at all) in my games, so It has never been a big
problem.

> 2) Resolve the Great Linked Debate. (done, as we all know)

Thank goodness.

> 3) Decouple Movement and Speed, at least as an optional rule. This can
> be trivially done by buying movement powers on a per turn basis, say 1
> pt buys 5"/turn for most powers, 10"/turn for Gliding, etc. Each phase,
> a character may move a maximum of Movement/SPD, rounded up, but may move
> no more than Movement in one turn. Pushing is required to exceed either
> limit.

I don't see how this is supposed to work/or fix anything.

> 4) Adjustment powers: Resolve the great gap between +1/4 (one of a set
> of powers) and +2 (all powers of a special effect) advantages. Also
> include in the basic rules options for using Adjustment Powers to negate
> or impose Limitations, add Advantages, etc.

I can get behind this suggestion.

> 5) Add a section: Examples and Discussion that includes a lot of the
> nitty-gritty details of powers. This would keep the basic descriptions
> clean, while addressing a lot of the thorny problems that may come up.

Same here.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"A good plan violently executed now
is better than a perfect plan next week."

General George Patton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 12:38:45
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser

On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:21:09 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin
wrote:

>At 09:42 AM 6/2/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>MegaScale sounds interesting; I'll have to see it to know if I'll like it.
>>Maybe it will finally let you build an interplanetary teleport right. The
>>charge options sound promising; I'll be very pleased if something helps
>>you build an air supply that lasts an hour or so.
>
>I'm guessing it's adapted from, or at least similar to, the "megahex"
>system from Star Hero. If this is the case, it probably only covers
>distance, not time, mass, density, temperature or other measurable factors.
>
>BobG and I discussed Star Hero's magahex system last year in connection
>with TUV (though I don't know if it was included in the final edit) and I
>used it to build some sensor probes for a Star Hero game. IIRC, it boiled
>down to +1 per increase in scale:
>
> Kilohex scale = 1000" = +1
> Megahex scale = 1,000,000" = +2
> Gigahex scale... you get the idea
>
>The potential for abuse is immense, unless you carefully control what the
>Increased Scale Advantage can be used for. But if you gotta have weapons
>that can dish out damage at intergalactic distances, or ships that can
>teleport to the Andromeda Galaxy...zetahex (10^21) and yottahex (10^24) are
>+7 and +8, respectively. :)

Going by your method, it would be better to use the normal rules for
such large ranges.

The problem here is that it doesn't follow the HSR standard of
doubling.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: TK tricks

I'm working on a character design based on Gil Hamilton from Larry Niven's
"Gil the ARM" stories. Gil has a psychokinetic 'third-arm' that can do
anything a normal arm can do (within reason). It also has a few special
powers that I'd like some advice on.

Basically, the arm is 1 STR TK (actually, less than 1 STR since his max
STR is a full shot glass). I'm going with 1 STR since that is the
absolute minimum cost for TK (ie 1.5 points).

For starters, the TK is Invisible, has Fine Manipulation costs no END and
is No Range.

Now, he can reach through items to move them. So, I am going to give it
Indirect as well. He can also reqach through a video screen to move an
object, but only if the object (ie the video image) is really clear. It
also has to be a live video, he can't move an object in a still video
picture for example. I was considering Indirect for this as well, but it
doesn't allow for the massive range that Gil could do this at. Would
Transdimensional be abusive/wrong? If you define the video as a
'dimension' it would work. The one example of this is where he moves a
pencil around by reaching through a video screen.

Gil can also feel objects inside of other objects. I was going to use
N-Ray 'touch' for this power (as opposed to N-Ray vision). I presume this
will be okay.

Gil has also reached inside a man's chest and crushed his heart. This is
a toughie. I figured a No Range, NND RKA with Continous. The problem is
defining the 'defense' against this. In Niven's Known Space world there
might be some, but I'm not certian what they could be. Force Fields?

Gil's most interesting application of his power was used in one where he
felt around in a real-time projection for objects. In this case, he is on
the moon, and is in a room where a projection of the landscape is being
broadcast. He wades around int he hologram and 'fels' round with his arm,
looking for stuff in dust pools and shadows. He can only do this in clear
areas and can't do it in shadowy areas or areas where the camera can't get
an image.

This power sounds like Clairsentience (touch), I'm just struggling with
how to define the projection trick. Requires 'immobile' focus?
Transdimensional?

Suggestions welcome.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"A good plan violently executed now
is better than a perfect plan next week."

General George Patton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:04:42 -0500
From: "Bobby Farris Jr." <BJ@redbow.net>
Subject: Spirit rules

I am creating some androids/robots for a science fiction campaign and
have some questions. In this campaign players can choose to play an
android if they so choose. Right now I have two ways of making up the
androids. The first way is to make them up as normal characters and just

buy back characteristics such as CON, COM, and REC. (STUN will be gone
with Takes No STUN).

The second way is to use the Spirit rules as presented in Hero Almanac
#1. My question is on the spirit rules. The problem is that the campaign

is going to be a 75+75disadvantage campaign and I can't make up a Spirit

Android under 290 pts. The main problem is coming from the fact that
every android must buy a +2 Advantage: Usable in real world on any thing

that is bought that can be used in the "real world."
EXAMPLE: One of the "droids" has a small circular saw: I bought it
as an HKA. Now, there is not way the android will ever use this power in

the "spirit world." It is only for the "real world".

My question is: If the spirit isn't going to be using the "power" in the

"spirit" world and will ONLY use the power in the real world do they
still have to use the +2 Advantage?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:05:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > 1) Minimize the use of Transform by adding some of the obvious, but
> > missing, powers that it is typically used for:
> > a) An Adjustment Power (Impair?) to add disadvantages.
>
> This is basically Transform, so I don't se the need for it.

Unfortunately, it's just as difficult to make somebody color blind as it
is to make someone completely blind, so I can see that it'd be nice to
have an actual Power for it.

> > b) Make explicit how Drains can add Limitations to a power,
> > or Aid can add Advantages to a power.
>
> AFAIK, they can't. You can't Aid a power to give it Armor Piercing, for
> example, or Drain just the 0 END from a power, either.

Well, yeah...I think that was his point. It'd be nice to be able to do
that in many cases.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:04:20 EDT
From: JVButlerJr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Question about Concepts

I am hoping that at least a few people on this list are familiar with
the Wild Card series of books. If so:

1. How would one go about writing up Ti Malice and his "addictive"
saliva and its effects on others?

2. How would one write up the Jumper's interesting variant on mind
control?

Jack Butler

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:12:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Concepts

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 JVButlerJr@aol.com wrote:

> I am hoping that at least a few people on this list are familiar with
> the Wild Card series of books. If so:
>
> 1. How would one go about writing up Ti Malice and his "addictive"
> saliva and its effects on others?

My character sheet for Ti Malice is here:

http://www.otd.com/~susano/timalice.html

There are over 100 Wild Cards characters here.

> 2. How would one write up the Jumper's interesting variant on mind
> control?

It's not. It is some sort of massive Transform that allows one sto swap
minds. The Ultimate Mentalist has notes on how to do this power. I also
saw some other Wild Cards designs for these characters, they were *very*
expensive.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"A good plan violently executed now
is better than a perfect plan next week."

General George Patton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:15:17 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Spirit rules

>I am creating some androids/robots for a science fiction campaign and
>have some questions. In this campaign players can choose to play an
>android if they so choose. Right now I have two ways of making up the
>androids.

Check out the Incomplete Character rules at http://www.javaman.to/hero.html...

>My question is: If the spirit isn't going to be using the "power" in the
>
>"spirit" world and will ONLY use the power in the real world do they
>still have to use the +2 Advantage?

I wouldn't use the Spirit rule for this...they would only make sense if the
androids were body hopping a lot, in which case 200+ points is probably
appropriate.

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:43:38 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

> > This is basically Transform, so I don't se the need for it.
>
> Unfortunately, it's just as difficult to make somebody color blind as it
> is to make someone completely blind, so I can see that it'd be nice to
> have an actual Power for it.

Actually, I could easily see an argument for making someone color blind as a
minor transform, though under the current write-up for Transform it has to
be major since it is giving the target a disadvantage, technically. It
certainly isn't as impairing as the other.

A level of granularity for Transform would be nice, though perhaps better
simulated with a Linked Drain: the target you are turning to stone with your
cumulative transform gets more and more impaired as you zap them.

Of course, either of these don't address the poster's desire to restrict
Transfrom.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:50:18 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
Subject: Ad&d to Hero

Okay, I know that this has been brought up before, and I don't really
want to start a major thread here, what I really need are some web
addresses of any sight that has converted either monsters, and/or spells
over to Hero system. It will go a long way to help convincing my GM to
give Hero a chance for this game.

Thanks,

Darin "What do you mean I hit a car!!!? I was aiming up into the sky!"
Boatwright


PS...yes that really did happen in our current supers campaign and no, I
did not roll an 18.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:56:55 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: TK tricks

> I'm working on a character design based on Gil Hamilton from Larry Niven's
> "Gil the ARM" stories.

Ah, a discriminating reader ;)

> Gil has a psychokinetic 'third-arm' that can do
> anything a normal arm can do (within reason).
>
> For starters, the TK is Invisible, has Fine Manipulation costs no END and
> is No Range.

That looks about right, and is fairly cheap. Making it 1 STR is technically
illegal, but will make everything else work out better and is probably
correct in any event.

> Now, he can reach through items to move them. So, I am going to give it
> Indirect as well. He can also reqach through a video screen to move an
> object, but only if the object (ie the video image) is really clear. It
> also has to be a live video, he can't move an object in a still video
> picture for example. I was considering Indirect for this as well, but it
> doesn't allow for the massive range that Gil could do this at. Would
> Transdimensional be abusive/wrong? If you define the video as a
> 'dimension' it would work. The one example of this is where he moves a
> pencil around by reaching through a video screen.

Transdimensional is technically incorrect: it's for attacking things in
other dimensions, not the same one you're in at a distance. Really, you
should buy off No Range and buy lots and lots of range and No Range
Modifier, and probably Clairsentience since you can't normally target
someone through the television screen.

However, as per the recent Castling discussion, you may very well get away
with Transdimensional for this very limited ability: what I just described
is going to be far too expensive for the effect desired. That's up to the
GM. If you're him, I'd say go for it.

> Gil can also feel objects inside of other objects. I was going to use
> N-Ray 'touch' for this power (as opposed to N-Ray vision). I presume this
> will be okay.

This should be fine. You might want to take touch at a small range, say for
3 points (unusual for Touch, but since he can feel inside the target without
them noticing something is probably warranted). I suppose the N-Ray may
cover this.

> Gil has also reached inside a man's chest and crushed his heart. This is
> a toughie. I figured a No Range, NND RKA with Continous. The problem is
> defining the 'defense' against this. In Niven's Known Space world there
> might be some, but I'm not certian what they could be. Force Fields?

I think he just caused a heart attack, rather than litteraly crushing the
heart. In the setting that might be a straight Killing Attack: few targets
have resistant defenses, and those that do don't have a lot of it, so about
two dice of HKA (with STR about 3d6 or 3d6+1) could easily incapacitate or
kill any target not inside a tank, which he couldn't reach through anyway.

> Gil's most interesting application of his power was used in one where he
> felt around in a real-time projection for objects. In this case, he is on
> the moon, and is in a room where a projection of the landscape is being
> broadcast. He wades around int he hologram and 'fels' round with his arm,
> looking for stuff in dust pools and shadows. He can only do this in clear
> areas and can't do it in shadowy areas or areas where the camera can't get
> an image.
>
> This power sounds like Clairsentience (touch), I'm just struggling with
> how to define the projection trick. Requires 'immobile' focus?
> Transdimensional?

Requiring an immobile focus sounds like a good way to limit it, and
Clairsentience the right power. Strange thing is going to be he's going to
have the Killing Attack and Clairsentience, expensive powers that he hardly
ever uses. Painful to pay so much for things that you use so little, maybe
that's worth a limitation as well.

If Transdimensional was allowed for the Telekinesis, it might also be
allowed for the Touch sense for around 15 points (if it was 20 for Touch,
including the +1/2 Indirect). This might work out better.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:59:45 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things

> > 3) Decouple Movement and Speed, at least as an optional rule. This can
> > be trivially done by buying movement powers on a per turn basis, say 1
> > pt buys 5"/turn for most powers, 10"/turn for Gliding, etc. Each phase,
> > a character may move a maximum of Movement/SPD, rounded up, but may move
> > no more than Movement in one turn. Pushing is required to exceed either
> > limit.
>
> I don't see how this is supposed to work/or fix anything.

Two that I can think of:

1. It means your reflexes don't mean you move faster or slower, that's based
solely on how much Movement you bought.
2. All movement works, or can be made to work, approximately the same way:
falling velocity will be the same as ramming speed will be the same as
knockback damage. If it does then certain abilities become easier to do.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)

Allan Dunbar writes:
> > Someday when you'r on this side of the pond, you'll have to come
> >by our place for a pint of Dark Sleep Chocolate Stout homebrew :-).
>
> Which naturally brings up the topic of Guiness. Hmmmm.....

Nah, Guinness is too watery :-).

Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:37:03 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)

Yea, watery like roast beef.

] > Which naturally brings up the topic of Guiness. Hmmmm.....
]
] Nah, Guinness is too watery :-).
]
] Steven J. Owens
] puff@netcom.com
]
]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:52:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ad&d to Hero

- --- boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Okay, I know that this has been brought up before, and I don't really
> want to start a major thread here, what I really need are some web
> addresses of any sight that has converted either monsters, and/or spells
> over to Hero system. It will go a long way to help convincing my GM to
> give Hero a chance for this game.

This s probably more than you're looking for (actually, it's kind of scarry),
but take at look at http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh.html

For more Fantasy Hero stuff, try
http://www.sysabend.org/champions/links/Hero_FantasyHero.html

- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:52:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Ad&d to Hero

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, boaters wrote:

> Okay, I know that this has been brought up before, and I don't really
> want to start a major thread here, what I really need are some web
> addresses of any sight that has converted either monsters, and/or spells
> over to Hero system. It will go a long way to help convincing my GM to
> give Hero a chance for this game.

Try here for creatures:

http://www.otd.com/~susano/creatures.html

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"A good plan violently executed now
is better than a perfect plan next week."

General George Patton

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #415
*****************************


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