Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 427
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 2:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #427
champ-l-digest Friday, June 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 427
In this issue:
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Deconstruction Blues (PC Robots)
Re: Telekinesis (was Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
No Fringe Debate put to rest.
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Need some help w/Martial maneuvers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Telekinesis (was Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Deconstruction Blues (PC Robots)
Re: Serial Immortality
Odd of the Everchanging
Re: Serial Immortality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 1999 09:57:07 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
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Hash: SHA1
* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999
| Sorry, but that is _not_ how Continuous attacks work. A Continuous attack
| works just like a Constant Power, as per the description of the Continuous
| Advantage. Constant Powers do not even require a half-phase action to
| maintain them only to use them initially(see pg 52 BBB Deluxe). Further
| attacks are completely legal.
From the FAQ:
<p>Bruce "I'm Line Editor So I'm Right" Harlick sez:</p>
<blockquote>
A Continuous Attack Power requires that a character spend a half-phase
attack action to maintain the Power. He could make a half-move, but could
not make any full move maneuvers, nor could he launch any other attacks. To
be able to launch new attacks or do full moves the Attack Power would also
need to be Uncontrolled for a total Advantage of +1 1/2.
</blockquote>
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:59:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
On 24 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
> | I haven't assumed anything. I read your statements I compared them to the
> | book. You are mistaken about something.
>
> Read the FAQ, as previously cited. It includes an official ruling from
> Hero Games that states that linear cost options for a power (the so-called
> Adders or Add-ons) are *not* part of the base cost of the power.
No, it doesn't.
The question you quoted about Draining Desolidification did not say 'base
cost' anywhere in it.
It did not imply *anywhere* that it was making a ruling on what is or is
not base cost.
*ALL it said* was that you could shut off powers by draining the *minimum*
cost.
Now until you convince me that HERO games meant minimum cost equals base
cost - which I see no indication of in either the FAQ or the BBB - I think
your argument is completely baseless.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:44:20 -0500
From: "Bobby Farris Jr." <BJ@redbow.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >Yes, I think that, other than dice of effect, any power definition must
> >be used AS WRITTEN. All adders, advantages, limitations and stray
> >pencil marks on a power definition must be used, all together, when the
> >power is activated, except as noted in their write ups. Thus, since
> >there is a rule for using fewer dice of effect with most powers, you
> >can do that.
>
> It seems to be the default definition of how Powers are used in Hero yes.
> That is exactly why I think there needs to be an advantage that allows you
> to vary use of your power (yes I can use my Explosion or just a straight
> energy blast, I can vary the senses my Images affects, I can use my Force
> Field at whatever proportion of Defenses as long as it adds up to the same
> (whether it be 8/8 or 1/15 or 13/3).
First, I want everyone to understand the two terms I am going to use. *Power*
and *Effect*. I hate that the Hero systems describes certain of their
abilities as "Powers". They are not "Powers" in truth they are effects. A
Power is an ability the character is able to do.
EXAMPLE: Obsidian has the Power of Density due to his alien nature. This
is bought by purchasing the EFFECT Density Increase with the Advantages 0 END,
Persistent, and the Limitation Always on.
13 real cost 10pts Density Increase, 0 END, Persistent, Always On.
Okay, that said when a you get a character concept you decide what "Powers"
that character has and you buy effects the model those "Powers". So, lets say
I decide to have a character than has a Force Field that I can vary in what it
protects against. One time it might be a 30pd/0ed the next it might be a
15pd/15ed and the next 0pd/30ed.
Well, look that the effects that can be bought. Force Field comes easily to
mind. However when you buy Force Field you must keep the proportion of the
defenses the same. If you want to vary it as above you MUST buy another
EFFECT. This is what Multipowers and Variable Power pools are for. They allow
you to buy multiple effects and call it one Power.
I guess, you could make a house rule that you could change your effects the
way you have said above. However what do you do for the character that has
bought that Armor Piercing Energy Blast and can't turn off the Armor Piercing?
Now you have to make up a Limitation for him.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:44:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Deconstruction Blues (PC Robots)
I'm working on a PC who is very much an Automaton type character.
I want her to have typical Automaton powers and Automaton traits.
Among these traits, I want to simulate the ability to resist STUN
damage and Not Bleed. I am unsure wether this should be a limited form
of Armor or a special form of Aid.
I would also want her to have classic Automaton powers. This is
up for debate... What first comes to mind are mostly powers centered in
and around her form. Armor, LS, PowDef, MenDef are all possibilities.
Most of these are resistances, but to have problems in the long run.
Buying STR and Running 0 END are possibilities as well.
Something I have never been able to figure out in HERO: How to
make an "Omni Jointed" character. A character who can swerve wrists,
elbows, shoulders, etc. around and around, bent in any which way, as long
as it's along a joint.
A while ago, there was a discussion about having a
"Deconstructable Body", or a body that could be disassembled into parts
with no ill effect to the user other than being deprived of the particular
limb for use. If anyone recalls this post (or has a copy of it), I would
greatly appreciate if you could forward it to me (or contact me).
I would also like to have the Automaton/Vehicle flaw of having
systems that "kink out" if damaged.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:38:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
At 09:13 AM 6/25/1999 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>
>> I've seen effects where telekinesis was used, and something was being
>> squeezed, but the dynamic of what was going on would lead me to use
>> something else -- in most cases, RKA BOECV w/BODY -- to represent it in
>> game terms.
>
>I personally would generally just assume someone was using a telekinetic
>Grab at range.
I was referring to squeezing such as someone's throat, heart, or
generally internal organs. The first could be done like you say, but I've
more often seen it, and almost always seen the others, represented as some
sort of RKA or AVLD.
>Here is the crux of my point - I don't think if TK was simply able to
>lift things, that anyone would buy it. Either that, or they would
>simply buy Energy Blast with the special effect that they were squeezing
>the target telekinetically.
I have *always* bought TK primarily for the lifting ability. If I want
to punch or squeeze telekinetically, it's already more efficient to buy
Energy Blast with a telekinetic Special Effect, especially if you're in a
Multipower (where you can get 12d6 in 60 points instead of just 8d6 through
TK).
>If anything, TK is OVERpriced rather than UNDERpriced - but there's no
>easy way around that, since you can't make it superior to Energy Blast.
That is a part of my point: that TK is both overpriced and overly broad.
It's simply easier to handle mathematically if its cost is 1:1; its
lifting ability becomes comparable to STR at that rate; and if you want to
do Normal damage at range, you should get Energy Blast anyway.
>If Real Cost is all you're after, then you can always apply limitations
>to bring the cost down. But in general, most telekinetics want AT LEAST
>the squeeze function. It seems foolish to make the base power so devoid
>of features that few will buy it without some sort of Advantages - it
>would be like an Energy Blast where you had to buy "Does Knockback" and
>"Can be Spread" separately. I favour the current "default".
Again, I have to wonder: why buy 40 STR TK for 60 points to be able to
do 8d6 damage, when you can buy an Energy Blast to do 12d6?
Of course, one could argue that TK gives a sort of Continuous effect,
which would be cut to 6d6 if bought as Energy Blast. That's a legitimate
point, even allowing that there'd be an OCV penalty for Grab using TK.
Considering that, I think TK would still be not too terribly underpriced
at 1:1 if only the Punch were removed, and not the Squeeze.
>> >Regardless - TK is ranged STR; anything STR can do, TK should be
>> >able to do as well. Are you suggesting that you would prefer TK
>> >to be something like Flight, UAO?
>>
>> No, I'm saying that I'd prefer TK to be lift and move only. Damaging
>> effects should be bought separately, using damaging Powers.
>
>So you're against Move Throughs and Move Bys, then? As well as the
>common tactic of grabbing someone, Flying up a bit, and then dropping
>them?
Certainly not. Damage is a natural side effect of velocity; anyone
who's been in a car collision should realize that. Damage is not, however,
a natural side effect of lifting.
(Though I would certainly allow a telekinetic to lift a target and smash
him against the ground, or a wall, or another target....)
>Or, hell, just punching them? Why, if TK should be lift and move only,
>should STR not also be lift and move only?
>
>TK is Ranged STR, remember.
That's the problem. TK is *not* ranged STR. It's *treated* as Ranged
STR, but if TK actually *were* Ranged STR, then we could just forget about
having TK as a separate Power at all, and just buy Ranged STR.
>> >I've seen this at the AE: One Hex level often enough, but rarely
>> >higher.
>>
>> Same here, at least in game write-ups, though I've seen giants in TV
>> and movies that would be other versions.
>
>To be perfectly honest, it has ALWAYS seemed to me that the advantage
>is bought primarily to avoid having to hit your opponent's DCV and
>just go for the hex DCV of 3.
There are other considerations. For instance, it really screws your
opponent's ability to Dodge or Block. Also, at levels higher than One Hex
(and sometimes even at that level), it can hit multiple targets with one
Attack Roll -- this being the very point that started this discussion in
the first place.
>But that's OK. With the sort of STR in consideration - generally 60 or
>more - AE 1 hex costs 30 points; you could get 10 3 pt combat levels
>for that.
Which, of course, wouldn't do the above. :-]
Not that Combat Skill Levels aren't a good way to represent the effect
of having honkin' big hands.
>> >TK is different. By default, it's only got one "hand", but when you
>> >buy Area Effect you get a whole pile of other "hands" to use. In
>> >effect, as I see it, Area Effect TK gives you as many "Extra Limbs"
>> >as there are targets (if one seriously disagrees with this, consider
>> >that those "extra hands" could certainly swat or squeeze multiple
>> >targets with full STR - so why not lift?)
>>
>> Maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but to my mind if AoE
>> gave the user extra telekinetic "hands" then those "hands" wouldn't
>> have to be in adjacent hexes. It's more like increasing the size of
>> the "hand."
>
>All seemingly fine - but add "Selective" to the AE and this explanation
>becomes difficult to accept.
>
>> Whether that's the case or not, I don't see having extra "hands"
>> making this kind of a difference on Telekinesis, any more than I'd
>> see Extra Limbs doing the same for STR.
>
>I argue that it is required for consistency. If I can use full STR -
>TK or otherwise - to punch someone, then I should be able to use full
>STR to lift someone, too. They are two sides of the same coin, IMHO.
But still, if your 30 STR is bought with Area Effect, you can only lift
1600kg of stuff, total, no matter how big the Area is, and no matter
whether it's Selective, Nonselective, or normal. Similarly, no matter how
many Extra Limbs you have, you could still only lift 1600kg of stuff,
total. That being the case, if you want consistency, the rule should be
the same for TK.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:16:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
At 04:32 PM 6/24/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>> Assuming, of course, that the source of the Skills has one that narrow
>>on hand, and that the character can even get to that source.
>
>If I have to micromanage the ability enough to ensure that's not the case,
>then I think it's probably still too cheap. Personally, if someone really
>wanted to do this sort of thing, I'd be much more comfortable with the
>stacked Cramming idea; at least the minimal investment there is fairly
serious.
Micromanage? It's just a matter of making sure that the VPP has enough
in the way of truly limiting Limitations that it won't be easily used. A
set number of Charges, "Only Change at Base," and this sort of thing can
keep the ability under a reasonable level of control.
A similar "problem" would be, say, a custom 'mech with a 9d6 Penetrating
RKA in a sci-fi campaign where most attacks were 4-5d6 RKA. With standard
Limitations, even if it's just one Charge, there's no way I'd allow such a
monster. On the other hand, if it has stuff like Concentrate at 0 DCV,
Extra Time: Full Turn, Side Effects (affecting the pilot), and such (in
addition to 1 Charge and any standard Limitations like Focus), I can be
pretty well assured that the attack will be reserved for those
oh-my-God-I'm-in-real-deep-bat-guano situations.
The point is that the GM should look closely at abilities whose base
utility would make them abusive, and see if they have Limitations that
would make them inconvenient or unattractive for actual use. The more
helpful the abusive ability is, the more inconvenient or unattractive it
should be.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:40:40 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
At 08:48 PM 6/24/1999 -0500, J. Alan Easley wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
>
>> TK is Ranged STR, remember.
>
>Hate to interrupt, but I believe the point that is being made is that TK IS
>more or less Ranged STR but it would be nice if it wasn't. Then a character
>could buy the ability to lift larger masses and fit it within their
>respective campaign limits on DCs and Active Points.
>
>I have often disliked the new cost of Telekinesis for just that very point.
Similarly, I have shelved two characters who had been built as
Telekinetics under Third Edition because of the change in that Power's
structure.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:15:00 -0500
From: "Bobby Farris Jr." <BJ@redbow.net>
Subject: No Fringe Debate put to rest.
My two cents:
First, I want everyone to understand the two terms I am going to use. *Power*
and *Effect*. I hate that the Hero systems describes certain of their
abilities as "Powers". They are not "Powers" in truth they are effects. A
Power is an ability the character is able to do.
That said Hero system should have MANY separate "Powers", what I call effects,
under Invisibility. There should be two main ones:
#1 Invisibility with No Fringe cost 20 points.
#2 Invisibility with Fringe cost 30 points.
Then there should be many more powers under this one for each sense that is
covered. However, this would have taken a couple hundred pages just to list
all the effects under Invisibility. This would be an inordinate amount of
space. Who wants to pay $100 for a game book. Therefore they wrote it up as:
Invisibility base cost 20 pts. +5 points for each additional sense, +10 for
each additional sense group. No Fringe +10pts.
This is why No Fringe is counted as part of the Base cost when multiplying by
the Advantage formula to find the Active Cost. It it is because it is part of
the effect called Invisibility with No Fringe that has a base cost of 30
points.
EXAMPLE: I decide my character has a power that makes him totally
invisible versus sight and sound therefore I buy the effect, what Hero calls
power:
Invisibility versus Sight Group and Sound Group, No Fringe. Base Cost: 50
points.
This is the whole Effect that you are purchasing. You CANNOT decide that part
of it does not work for you. Now, is No Fringe an advantage....really no. It
is part of the basic effect of the above power. However, it CANNOT be turned
off. Why?
Imagine a character with Energy Blast turning off the ability to do BODY?
Energy blast does 1 BODY per d6 rolled per the Hero system rules. You can't
just "turn it off." That is the way the power works. If you want an Energy
Blast that doesn't do STUN by another Energy Blast with the limitation Only
Does STUN.
The way the above power works is with No Fringe. If you want an Invisibility
as above that HAS a Fringe then you must buy a new effect.
Would you allow a character to buy 50 points worth of Growth and only increase
his STR, BODY, and STUN and not his DCV penalty?
Bobby Farris
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:54:15 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
>| Arguably, you COULD rule that the "Constant" nature of the power simply
>| means that you don't have to make an attack roll for subsequent phases.
>| I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow subsequent Mind Control
>| attacks, while maintaining the Suppress, as long as they were against the
>| same target.
>
>Maintaining a Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase
>attack action (but not an attack roll) to maintain. IOW, you would not be
>able to attack anyone, nevermind the same target, as long as you are
>maintaining that Suppress.
>
>Sorry, but that is how Continuous attacks work.
That was my understanding as well, since it is an attack power, but someone
contradicted me and I didn't feel confident about it. But unless it was
bought uncontrolled I would say the suppress wouldn't help him any with his
attacks. I do think suppress by its very nature should be called an
adjustment power, like Dispel.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:39:50 -0700
From: Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com>
Subject: Need some help w/Martial maneuvers
Once again i am at work, have an idea, but don't have a rule book in front of
me.
I am working on a martial maneuver for an Archetype that is a "Passing Strike"
It should do extra damage for velocity.... Who remembers the cost of adding
Velocity to a martial maneuver? And is it v/2 or v/5?
- --Rodger
(I should really keep an Ultimate Martial Artist with me at all times!)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:59:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
From: J. Alan Easley [SMTP:alaneasley@email.com]
>I am
>not a child but my elementary school experimented with New Math for the
>first two years of my education then somebody woke up and realized what a
>crime it was to experiment on six and seven year olds.
Arguable, to say the least. First, you should experiment upon adults, where
applicable, but the first time you use anything with children, you are
experimenting on them.
Your choices are two: experiment on children, or never do anything new with
children. Not teaching methods, not medications, not cancer treatments.
Nothing.
>OOooo, campaign idea. Teacher who experiments on her 1st graders to
enhance
> their mental abilities with drugs and hypnotherapy.
Which she justifies using the arguments given above, greatly expanded and
push beyond their limits with sophistry.
>Everything is going
>well until she triggers a latent mutant ability in several of her students.
>Crimes commence, supers fighting kids, but powerful kids. Kids that have
>crying screaming fits when they take BODY or more than a certain preset
>amount of STUN.
Works.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:12:16 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> >| Arguably, you COULD rule that the "Constant" nature of the power simply
> >| means that you don't have to make an attack roll for subsequent phases.
> >| I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow subsequent Mind Control
> >| attacks, while maintaining the Suppress, as long as they were against the
> >| same target.
> >
> >Maintaining a Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase
> >attack action (but not an attack roll) to maintain. IOW, you would not be
> >able to attack anyone, nevermind the same target, as long as you are
> >maintaining that Suppress.
> >
> >Sorry, but that is how Continuous attacks work.
>
> That was my understanding as well, since it is an attack power, but someone
> contradicted me and I didn't feel confident about it. But unless it was
> bought uncontrolled I would say the suppress wouldn't help him any with his
> attacks. I do think suppress by its very nature should be called an
> adjustment power, like Dispel.
I really wish I had the book on me. I don't think that suppress works as the
continuous advantage does and I could of sworn this was in the suppress power
description. All you had to do was pay the end to keep the supress going, but
any other actions could be done.
Looks like I'm putting the rule book back in my pack for work again.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:33:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>At 09:13 AM 6/25/1999 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>>
>>Here is the crux of my point - I don't think if TK was simply able to
>>lift things, that anyone would buy it. Either that, or they would
>>simply buy Energy Blast with the special effect that they were squeezing
>>the target telekinetically.
>
> I have *always* bought TK primarily for the lifting ability. If I want
>to punch or squeeze telekinetically, it's already more efficient to buy
>Energy Blast with a telekinetic Special Effect, especially if you're in a
>Multipower (where you can get 12d6 in 60 points instead of just 8d6 through
>TK).
I agree and disagree. I think it might be better if some powers were broken
down further with more Adders. In this case, I think the ability to do STR
damage at range with TK should be a +5/d6 Adder to the Power Telekinesis. I
might also support the ability to use this Adder with other Powers.
There are a few reasons for this, but, do you really want TK with Linked EB?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:00:24 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Deconstruction Blues (PC Robots)
> I'm working on a PC who is very much an Automaton type character.
>
> I want her to have typical Automaton powers and Automaton traits.
I assume from the rest of the post that you don't want to just give her the
Automaton powers, though.
> Among these traits, I want to simulate the ability to resist STUN
> damage and Not Bleed. I am unsure wether this should be a limited form
> of Armor or a special form of Aid.
It would have to be Armor, probably. Aid has no ability to prevent being
Stunned (or CON-Stunned, if you prefer that term). I'd also strongly
consider Damage Reduction: Even a fairly low-die Killing Attack could Stun
the character otherwise.
hmm. Armor with the -1/4 limitation Only to prevent Stun damage and Bleeding
(character takes the Body, but unless reduced to less than 0 Body by attacks
which overcome the Armor, will not bleed from it). That's probably too
complicated for too little limitation. You might also consider just giving
straight Armor, enough to bounce the Body of any attack she's likely to come
across, and a Physical Limitation that says that she reacts as though having
a lower defense.
eg:
20 points PD & ED Armor
1/2 Physical and Energy Damage Reduction, only vs. Stun (-1/2)
Physical Limitation: Reacts to damage as if she was an Automaton with 7
Resistant Defense (I chose that because Automaton defenses are generally 1/3
those of anyone else)
So she takes a 3d6 Killing Attack for 18 (!) Body, she effectively takes 11
Body out of her 10. Because she reacts as an Automaton, she does not bleed
(she would bleed if any attacks ever overcame her 20 Defense often enough to
reduce her to negative body, though: in that case the damage would be too
severe. On the other hand, such attacks would "kill" her quickly anyway).
However, she also doesn't heal this damage, since Automatons don't heal
naturally: she has to repair herself. If she takes another such hit, she is
destroyed. Because of the way the power is bought, though (she really has
the 20 points of armor), she is in a sense still alive and can be rebuilt.
> I would also want her to have classic Automaton powers. This is
> up for debate... What first comes to mind are mostly powers centered in
> and around her form. Armor, LS, PowDef, MenDef are all possibilities.
> Most of these are resistances, but to have problems in the long run.
> Buying STR and Running 0 END are possibilities as well.
Those are all good ideas.
> Something I have never been able to figure out in HERO: How to
> make an "Omni Jointed" character. A character who can swerve wrists,
> elbows, shoulders, etc. around and around, bent in any which way, as long
> as it's along a joint.
Since this is the ability to, in effect, have limbs where you don't have
them (you actually CAN scratch that spot on your back no one can reach!),
you could buy it as Extra Limbs with a -1/4 limitation: Simulates very
flexible joints.
> A while ago, there was a discussion about having a
> "Deconstructable Body", or a body that could be disassembled into parts
> with no ill effect to the user other than being deprived of the particular
> limb for use. If anyone recalls this post (or has a copy of it), I would
> greatly appreciate if you could forward it to me (or contact me).
Cannot help you there. I might do it as having another Physical Limitation:
Can be deconstructed, so all my limbs count as Inaccessable Foci. If there
are benefits to this, there are likely powers to simulate most of them:
Clairsentience for leaving an eye behind, Telekinesis for an arm. Or maybe
take the Physical Limitation and either Followers or Duplication for the
limbs.
> I would also like to have the Automaton/Vehicle flaw of having
> systems that "kink out" if damaged.
That could be either yet another Physical Limitation, or it could be a small
limitation on the powers that can be knocked out (-1/4 at most, it could be
considered part of the special effect or even part of the Reacts to damage
as an Automaton disad above, though I think that's a bit harsh).
Hope that helps, or that help is on the way.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:37:22 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Serial Immortality
> That is what I don't see. Nobody but the character REALLY knows that
> he is the same guy (or gal). Unless you have soul/mind/essence
> detectors as part of the game, the new character, from the rest of the
> world's point of few, is just as disconnected from the first character
> as any other player's second character after the death of the first.
And I never said they wouldn't have those problems that I am aware of. The
things they would have is the full knowledge that the previous character
had, and the full experience (and the points that go with them). They should
just give up most of their holdings unless they have some method of proving
they are the same person, which of course the bad guys may eventually find
out about and use against them. That itself could be kind of fun: "But why
CAN'T I have my Filthy Rich back?" "Well, it seems that someone has cleaned
out those accounts..."
> > Therefore, charging for it is far from unreasonable. If it gives no
> > advantage, it's obviously worth no points. It seems to me that the
> > ability to die and come back in new bodies again and again (within
> > reason) is worth points, since it is not an ability that all the PC's
> > will have, you obviously disagree.
>
> But they do have that ability. When a PC dies, the player creates a
> new character and continues playing.
Generally, though, sans experience points. I admit freely that this is the
primary mechanical advantage to this power construct. But if the player
wants to show off the ability to die and come back from time to time, this
seems preferable to actually having them lose their points.
> Who would start a new character from scratch? You are saying that just
> because the player puts a 13 point power on his character sheet, I as
> GM cannot force him to lose XP.
I am not aware of saying that, or anything of the kind. And you went from
saying how much of a waste of points it is to saying that its abusive.
> Sounds munchkinnie to me.
For something like 20 points in the 5th Edition, there's apparently going to
be the ability to come back from the dead. Many people already play that
having Regeneration with no further powers allows you to do this. That's
seven points more to be a munchkin, or even as low as 10 for the
regeneration as it is currently written up.
> There is a
> big difference between a 350 point character and a 250 + 100 XP
> character. That is the reason most GMs do not allow new characters to
> have all of their original XP. But for 13 CP you can get around this
> little problem. Cute.
The character would be the 250 + 100 XP character, since the skills and
training received would generally be the same. This is a non-issue: the
character would still revive with all memories and need to buy all
applicable, and possibly some inapplicable, skills and other abilities.
Obviously there are some players out there who couldn't deal with it
properly, though.
> No, I meant if was one-shot. Now that that incarnation is dead, the
> power is gone.
Since the power being bought in this discussion is the power to come back
from the dead, the incarnation is not dead, merely changed in form. So the
power is not gone. But I also never said that if this reincarnation is only
going to happen once that I would have the power be paid for.
> > All of the knowledge of the dead guy is a series of skills and
> > abilities that the character bought with points, whether from
> > starting points or experience. If the character has 100 points in
> > skills, say, 75 from experience, then letting him tie it all up with
> > a 3 point KS doesn't work very well.
>
> I can't believe that is what you think I meant. The 3 point KS is the
> ability to remember the old character's memories, not his skills. If
> skills are going to carry over he still has to pay for them. And who
> says he can't be required to buy the skill higher than 3 points. Maybe
> you can give a -1 to the skill roll for each incarnation removed the
> memory is.
Since I went on to talk about times when it is appropriate to just get the
KS, and since I have been saying all along that under some circumstances
that would be the way to go, obviously I don't think that is what you meant.
I was talking about a circumstance where it would not work, which is not the
only one. There are many times that the KS would be better. Obviously, any
games you run would be amongst them.
> I still see this as a cheesy way to keep XP after death.
Since the power to come back from death is (supposed to be) coming up, and
since I was talking about using that with a limitation, you presumably
consider that power cheesy. Therefore, it would never come up in your game,
because you would disallow the power altogether. Since in my games death is
fairly rare, I have no problem with the power or the cost. And if someone
wants this power as their schtick, I will charge them appropriately for it.
If they die in the natural course of the game, and want to be a
reincarnation of their first character, I will simply have them buy the KS
as you suggest, and perhaps will give them an infusion of points later in
the game as they start fully remembering their previous life more (depending
on various circumstances).
> In a non-superhero world where coming back to life would be only for
> the privledged few, it could just be a perk/talent.
Absolutely.
> So do I. But with this player I may have to do more often than I'd
> like and when I'm not inspired toward it.
I did say that the deaths and rebirth have to be within reason for it to be
allowed. Commiting suicide just to get a new power set would be annoying,
for example.
> Yes, you would. It's my game. Nyaah. :-)
Uhm... Well, if you really want me to. I'll try not to die and annoy you.
> And how much do you charge the other players, when their characters
> die, to come back into the game?
All the experience points they just lost by dying? You've gone back to me
making them waste points after saying the power is a munchkinism.
It's the difference between something that happens in the normal course of
the game and the player having some power at the beginning of the game. If
the player wants to have this type of ability, I charge for it. If I as GM
kill someone off and they play a new character, obviously I don't charge
anything for them to play a new character, save perhaps some form of
confection. That includes if they choose to play a reincarnation of the
first character. That includes also if they get resurrected in some way at
some point, or if I make changes to the supposedly dead character and give
it back as a ghost or somesuch. It's the difference between things that
happen during the game (or that I as GM do to the characters) and what the
player wants.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:38:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Odd of the Everchanging
Odd of the Everchanging belongs to a race of Shape Shifts able to
take the form of any humanoid creature.
Odd's powers not only allow it to change forms, but also set up a
convincing "mental screen."
If someone were to Mind Scan and telepathy Odd, they wouldn't
expect that Odd is a Shape Shifter.
This "Mental Deception" is the effect I'm trying to aceive, and I
need help with the Power Construct.
One Power Construct would be Mental Defense, Only to Prevent
Surface Thought Scans, with Invisible power effects. The only thoughts
that would get through would be the "shapeshifted" ones.
Another would be a Damage Shield or Triggered Mental Illusions or
Mind Control, Only to Convince Opponent that Character is Shapeshifted
Form.
Another would be ShapeShift BECV... (I don't expect this one to
get mass appeal).
Another would be Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group, Invisible
Power Effects, with the effect being "normal thoughts" as opposed to the
"shapeshifted" ones.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Serial Immortality
- --- James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> wrote:
> Generally, though, sans experience points. I admit freely that this
> is the primary mechanical advantage to this power construct. But if
> the player wants to show off the ability to die and come back from
> time to time, this seems preferable to actually having them lose
> their points.
Well, then, that's where we differ. I don't dump the new character
down to original campaign start CPs. I generally have them restart at
5-10 points below the average XP level. So only if they had the
highest XP total before dying would it be a lot of XP.
> > Sounds munchkinnie to me.
>
> For something like 20 points in the 5th Edition, there's apparently
> going to be the ability to come back from the dead. Many people
> already play that having Regeneration with no further powers allows
> you to do this. That's seven points more to be a munchkin, or even as
> low as 10 for the regeneration as it is currently written up.
Yep, and I'm only charging 3 points to the next character. But
remember I consider the "Please don't let me lose my XPs" part to be
munchkinnie. Obviously if I want to charge less for the ability, I
don't consider serial immortality munchkinnie.
> > There is a
> > big difference between a 350 point character and a 250 + 100 XP
> > character. That is the reason most GMs do not allow new characters
> > to have all of their original XP. But for 13 CP you can get around
> > this little problem. Cute.
>
> The character would be the 250 + 100 XP character, since the skills
> and training received would generally be the same. This is a non-
> issue: the character would still revive with all memories and need to
> buy all applicable, and possibly some inapplicable, skills and other
> abilities. Obviously there are some players out there who couldn't
> deal with it properly, though.
I was talking about construction. If you sit down and make a 250 point
character and over weeks and months add 100 XP you will not create the
same character as the 350 point character that you will make after the
first death.
Also, whether or not he gets all skills back is a SFX/concept question.
Personally though, I give the XP to the player. They put them on the
character sheet. There is no reason to penalize the player for his
character's death if he was playing the character properly. If someone
roleplayed a death really well, they might return with more XPs.
> Since the power to come back from death is (supposed to be) coming
> up, and since I was talking about using that with a limitation, you
> presumably consider that power cheesy.
Well, would you remove the player's XP for dying? You'll do it to the
guy who didn't buy the 20 point power. Is that fair?
> ... And if someone wants this power as their schtick, I will charge
> them appropriately for it. If they die in the natural course of the
> game, and want to be a reincarnation of their first character, I will
> simply have them buy the KS as you suggest, and perhaps will give
> them an infusion of points later in the game as they start fully
> remembering their previous life more (depending on various
> circumstances).
I didn't realize you were going to use my suggestion if this ever came
up. Cool.
> > And how much do you charge the other players, when their characters
> > die, to come back into the game?
>
> All the experience points they just lost by dying? You've gone back
> to me making them waste points after saying the power is a
> munchkinism.
Munchkinism is the fear of losing the points and creating a power
construct to avoid it. Serial Immortality is character concept. I
generally only role-play with mature players. This really wouldn't
come up.
Besides, I told you I would let someone have the power for the cost of
the KS. Their new character would have a different XP value to realign
them with campaign norms.
> It's the difference between something that happens in the normal
> course of the game and the player having some power at the beginning
> of the game. If the player wants to have this type of ability, I
> charge for it. If I as GM kill someone off and they play a new
> character, obviously I don't charge anything for them to play a new
> character, save perhaps some form of confection. That includes if
> they choose to play a reincarnation of the first character. That
> includes also if they get resurrected in some way at some point, or
> if I make changes to the supposedly dead character and give it back
> as a ghost or somesuch. It's the difference between things that
> happen during the game (or that I as GM do to the characters) and
> what the player wants.
As a GM I've never killed off a player's character. And you do charge
them more than a confection, you take away all of their XPs. I reward
the player with XPs for showing up and for good role-playing. The fact
that he writes those XPs on his current character sheet is incidental.
That might not be the way you are looking at XPs but over the last
couple decades I've found that that makes more sense in a good game.
Joe
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:17 PM