Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 441

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:17 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #441


champ-l-digest Friday, July 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 441



In this issue:

FH racial magic system [HUMANS]
RE: Disadvantage, legal?
Re: Reverse Engineering Technology in HERO
Re: XDM + FTL = ???
Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: FH racial magic system
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Re: Aid for Stats
Always On (was Aid for Stats)
Re: Aid for Stats
RE: Aid for Stats
Fw:(crossposted) Yahoo Boycott
Re: Disadvantage, legal?
CHA: Demitri Shadowsilver
Re: Variable powers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:41:23 -0500
From: kwendel@unlnotes01.unl.edu
Subject: FH racial magic system [HUMANS]

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Oops, sent the Gnomes off with an ELV subject line.

HUMANS:

This is the tough one for me. I want a more traditional magic system,
where you learn/study/research spells, and are limited only by your
ability. The new limitations below steer Human magic toward T$R,
and I'm not sure I want to do that.

Mechanics:

Required Limitations:
Noisy (-1/4)
Requires Skill Roll (-1/2)
Gestures (-1/4)
Incantations (-1/4)
Components (-1/4)

Possible New Limitations:

Prerequisite
Requires the caster to gain mastery of a spell at a lower level
AP total before being able to learn this spell. Prerequisite is a
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=BC limitation.

Spell Level
Requires the caster to gain mastery of simple spells before
learning complex spells. You must have more Level (N) spells
that Level (N+1) spells. For example, in order to learn 1 Level
VI Spell you need to master (learn):
6 Level I Spells
5 Level II Spells
4 Level III Spells
3 Level IV Spells
2 Level V Spells

Level AP Range Limitation
1 1-15 -1/4
2 16-30 -1/2
3 31-45 -1
4 46-60 -1 1/2
5 61-75 -2
6 76-90 -2 1/2
7 90-120 -3

Sphere
Priestly Spells within a particular Sphere use the same Magic
Skill roll. The caster needs a different Magic Skill for each
Sphere. Sphere is a =BC Limitation.

Examples of Spheres are: Battle, Death, Healing, Protection

Personal END Reserve for Spells (50 Min, 100 Max; Rec 5 only)
All spells must Cost END, no Reduced END available.
LTE in effect.

Kent Wendel
kwendel@unl.edu
=

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:29:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Disadvantage, legal?

At 11:59 AM 7/1/1999 -0400, Nasset, Dave (TransAlliance) wrote:
>From: Bob Greenwade [mailto:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>
><snip>
>>
>> I'd certainly allow it. As far as I'm concerned, if a character has a
>>Power (or other special ability) that makes up for a Physical Limitation,
>>the character should still get the full value for the Disadvantage; any
>>lessening of the Disadvantage's effects is represented in the cost of the
>>Power.
>
>I almost agree, but it doesn't always work well. Cannot walk is worth about
>20-25 pts, depending upon your GM. For 12 pts, you can effectively replace
>it with Flight, and still have 8-13 pts left over.
>
>If you can, for all practical purposes, completely replace the missing
>ability with a Power, then a reduced cost is in order. For example, suppose
>I created a character with Cannot walk, All the time, Fully (25 pts). If I
>bought him Flight, I'd have to reduce it to Occasionally, Slightly (5 pts.)
>and DF: Flying man who cannot walk (Concealable with difficulty, 10 pts.).

I'd only do this if the Flight didn't have any Limitations (such as
Focus, or a Conditional Limitation) that could render it inoperable in
circumstances where the legs otherwise would work.
You do have a point, though. If a character can *completely* replace
the utility of a missing ability with a Power, then a reduced Disadvantage
bonus is appropriate.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:32:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Reverse Engineering Technology in HERO

At 10:37 AM 7/1/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>At 06:49 AM 7/1/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 09:50 PM 6/30/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 30 Jun 1999
>>>| Sorry to nitpick, but there is no such thing as a foci.
>>>| (Foci is plural; focus is singular.)
>>>
>>>Since we're picking nits, foci is plural, but Focuses is also plural :).
>>
>> I just checked my Webster's, and this is correct (though HSR still
>>sticks to "Foci").
>
>The proper pronunciation of "foci", by the way, is fo-si, not fo-ki.

Again, I checked Webster's, and this is correct.
This, I think, will be something appropriate for a sidebar in TUG....
:-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:33:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: XDM + FTL = ???

At 09:25 AM 7/1/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> That's an interesting construct, and one I use in TUV to produce effects
>> similar to what's described. It's handy when all you want to do is pass
>> through solid objects, but aren't sold on the idea of not having any
>> momentum with which to do Move Through and Move By damage.
>
>Interesting. And I presume that if you bought the higher level of
>Indirect, you could go to anywhere within your Running range, and wind up
>going any direction?

Probably. I didn't take it that far myself, since I don't know of any
Vehicles doing that in fiction (though it might not be a bad thing to make
not of in The Ultimate Speedster).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:41:33 EDT
From: DJHarkavy@aol.com
Subject: Aid for Stats

A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced cost
(it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).

I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying of
stats themselves, but it reduced the cost significantly. What do you all
think?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:07:12 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

Dan says:
>A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
>increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced
>cost (it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
>I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying
>of stats themselves, but it reduced the cost
>significantly. What do you all think?

"Always On" as a disadvantage requires that the power always
being on must be a disadvanatge. I fail to see how having
pumped stats limits the character. Did the calculations
include the advantages "0 END" and "Persistent", which are
also required for "Always On"?





_______________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

- --- DJHarkavy@aol.com wrote:
> A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
> increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced cost
> (it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
>
> I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying of
>
> stats themselves, but it reduced the cost significantly. What do you all
> think?

Sounds pretty cheesy. Just out of curiosity, what kind of special effect did
he come up with to justify effect ALL primary stats?

- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:35:38 EDT
From: DJHarkavy@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

In a message dated 7/1/99 2:16:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
johndesmarais@yahoo.com writes:

<<
Sounds pretty cheesy. Just out of curiosity, what kind of special effect did
he come up with to justify effect ALL primary stats?

-=>John Desmarais >>

Actually... He is a demon, without a material body. The magic is what
causes his stats. He is made of magic.

I had him eventually take his characteristics down to zero, and buy them as a
power, with the limitation "characteristics affected by magic availability",
- -1/2

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:33:28 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

> Dan says:
> >A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
> >increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced
> >cost (it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
> >I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the
buying
> >of stats themselves, but it reduced the cost
> >significantly. What do you all think?
>
> "Always On" as a disadvantage requires that the power always
> being on must be a disadvanatge. I fail to see how having
> pumped stats limits the character. Did the calculations
> include the advantages "0 END" and "Persistent", which are
> also required for "Always On"?

Actually, it's even worse than that: while Aid has a continuing effect, that
effect is like that of an Energy Blast or the other Adjustment powers. You
zap the target, and that's it: Aid is an instant power, and needs the
Continuous advantage before it can be made Persistent and Always On.

Always On does, by implication, kind of limit the power: it has a visible
effect, so people will see power crackling around the character all the
time. Also, since the character has no real control over it, I'd judge the
target has to be chosen, presumably the character, when the power is
purchased. This precludes getting any kind of a Self Only limitation.

So, the Aid has a +4 advantage on it (Continuous, 0 End/Persistent, All
primary characteristics) and a -1/2 limitation, so three dice costs 50 real
points. Unfortunately, that means the character gets in effect 12 real
points for the physical characteristics (they would get No Figured as a
limitation bought correctly) and 18 for each mental for a total of 120
points. Even under Hero 5th, all else being equal and Aid being 10 points
per die, it's only 100 points, so it's a savings of 20 points, which is
acceptable if you accept that the visible power effect actually limits the
power.

Ouch. That was a lot of thought for little return. You were quite correct in
your judgement, in any event: you're not supposed to buy a power that
simulates another power in order to get a cost break. Sometimes, the cheaper
power is the way to go because it fits what you are trying to simulate
better, but this sounds more like the player was trying to tweak the rules
to get a cheap way to buy something expensive.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:37:36 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

> Sounds pretty cheesy. Just out of curiosity, what kind of special effect
did
> he come up with to justify effect ALL primary stats?

"SHAZAM!"

No, that's not the way I'd buy it, but it is a character whose powers cause
all of his stats to go up, by whatever means they are bought.

Of course, that doesn't actually answer your question, since you asked what
special effect the other fellow had. I just thought I'd point out that they
do exist, even if the power construct IS cheesy (and it is SO cheesy, too).

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:02:07 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: FH racial magic system

Here's an idea. it's not a very well thought out idea, but it is ... and idea.

theory: each race interacts with magic differently. this is less based
on the "nature of magic" than it is on the "nature of the races".

each of these is a sterotype based on my feelings - loosely based on fantasy
lit.
feel free to disagree as you wish.

Dwares tend to be builders; architechs. they see the world as "unfinished"
and use their skill to "finish" it. Dwarves believe that they *know* how the
world
needs to be finished and go about doing that. to this end, they have a
knowledge
of stone, metals and other building materials that is intuitive and
enlightened.
[kinda like the way that Michael Jordan or Larry Bird played basketball].
They can
feel/sense/know when a stone has magical potiental and (some) have the ability
to bring that potential out. their magic is the ability to create runes and
such. each
race should also have some (large) extra magical talent. [my first idea would
be to
give dwarves the ability to create "stepping stones" - unmoveable large scale
t'port (from stone to stone). This could be kept from being a problem if
dwarves were
tight lipped about their secrets; perhaps they are closely held secrets of
their clan
chieftains. <<i'd put more here about dwarven anthropology, but i'm running
late>>

Elves are artists; creators. they see the world as "spolied" and use their
skill to
make it unspolied again. They are lovers of art, poetry and beauty. Their
magic
is attunded to this. their magic works with nature not against it. their
magic is almost a form of prayer (to nature gods?) as they work to make the
world pristine again. they should have control of nature; weather; trees;
animals... that kind of thing.

Humans are conquers; rulers. they see the world as "not theirs" and use their
skill
to change that. their use magic as an act of will.

<<ok, i've got to get back to work... more later, bye>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:19:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, James Jandebeur wrote:

> Actually, it's even worse than that: while Aid has a continuing effect, that
> effect is like that of an Energy Blast or the other Adjustment powers. You
> zap the target, and that's it: Aid is an instant power, and needs the
> Continuous advantage before it can be made Persistent and Always On.

Good point!

> Always On does, by implication, kind of limit the power: it has a visible
> effect, so people will see power crackling around the character all the
> time. Also, since the character has no real control over it, I'd judge the
> target has to be chosen, presumably the character, when the power is
> purchased. This precludes getting any kind of a Self Only limitation.

Hmm...partially true, although I would say that's part of the power being
Visible, which is separate from Always On.

> So, the Aid has a +4 advantage on it (Continuous, 0 End/Persistent, All
> primary characteristics) and a -1/2 limitation, so three dice costs 50 real
> points. Unfortunately, that means the character gets in effect 12 real
> points for the physical characteristics

Um, how do you figure that?

> (they would get No Figured as a
> limitation bought correctly) and 18 for each mental for a total of 120
> points. Even under Hero 5th, all else being equal and Aid being 10 points
> per die, it's only 100 points, so it's a savings of 20 points, which is
> acceptable if you accept that the visible power effect actually limits the
> power.

The problem here is that by paying 1 point, the character can raise the
maximum amount of AID by 1...with the advantages and limitations, that'd
mean 3.33 per point, or by paying 20 more points it lets you raise STR by
6, Dex by 2, Con & BOD by 3, INT by 6, EGO by 3, PRE by 6, COM by 12. (I
chose 20 points to make the stat numbers come out even.) That's a value
of 48 points for only 20, and it only gets worse.

> Ouch. That was a lot of thought for little return. You were quite correct in
> your judgement, in any event: you're not supposed to buy a power that
> simulates another power in order to get a cost break. Sometimes, the cheaper
> power is the way to go because it fits what you are trying to simulate
> better, but this sounds more like the player was trying to tweak the rules
> to get a cheap way to buy something expensive.

Absolutely right.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:22:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, James Jandebeur wrote:

> Even under Hero 5th, all else being equal and Aid being 10 points
> per die, it's only 100 points, so it's a savings of 20 points, which is
> acceptable if you accept that the visible power effect actually limits the
> power.

Actually, it's not only that...remember that the Aid is always on, so any
kind of wounds, Drains, and that sort of thing will heal almost instantly
as the AID bumps them back up. If you're going to be really strict about
it you could say that the AID would only bring them back if they had been
brought below the base level (the unaided stat), but that's still a pretty
impressive power.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

>A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
>increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced cost
>(it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
>
>I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying of
>stats themselves, but it reduced the cost significantly. What do you all
>think?

I think even not accounting for the overly cheap cost of Aid, Always On is
only applicable to powers where there's some disadvantage to not being able
to turn it off (Growth, Invisibility, Damage Shields).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:47:48 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

> Hmm...partially true, although I would say that's part of the power being
> Visible, which is separate from Always On.

Well, yes, but it is a drawback to the power being on all the time. If it
wasn't on at all times, they could zap themselves in hiding and come out all
buffed, and get similar levels of advantage for it.

> > So, the Aid has a +4 advantage on it (Continuous, 0 End/Persistent, All
> > primary characteristics) and a -1/2 limitation, so three dice costs 50
real
> > points. Unfortunately, that means the character gets in effect 12 real
> > points for the physical characteristics
>
> Um, how do you figure that?

Pardon, for *each* of the physical characteristics. If you bought the
ability by getting the stats, you'd put the -1/2 No Figured Characteristics
on each of them, so buying it correctly would be a total of 48 points,
unless it had further limitations.

> > (they would get No Figured as a
> > limitation bought correctly) and 18 for each mental for a total of 120
> > points. Even under Hero 5th, all else being equal and Aid being 10
points
> > per die, it's only 100 points, so it's a savings of 20 points, which is
> > acceptable if you accept that the visible power effect actually limits
the
> > power.
>
> The problem here is that by paying 1 point, the character can raise the
> maximum amount of AID by 1...with the advantages and limitations, that'd
> mean 3.33 per point, or by paying 20 more points it lets you raise STR by
> 6, Dex by 2, Con & BOD by 3, INT by 6, EGO by 3, PRE by 6, COM by 12. (I
> chose 20 points to make the stat numbers come out even.) That's a value
> of 48 points for only 20, and it only gets worse.

Ah, but there's the rub: it didn't occur to me to point out how abusive
buying up the max was because the dice were abusive enough. Oops.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:49:24 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

> > Even under Hero 5th, all else being equal and Aid being 10 points
> > per die, it's only 100 points, so it's a savings of 20 points, which is
> > acceptable if you accept that the visible power effect actually limits
the
> > power.
>
> Actually, it's not only that...remember that the Aid is always on, so any
> kind of wounds, Drains, and that sort of thing will heal almost instantly
> as the AID bumps them back up. If you're going to be really strict about
> it you could say that the AID would only bring them back if they had been
> brought below the base level (the unaided stat), but that's still a pretty
> impressive power.

The power construct just keeps getting worse...

Luckily, the poster made the fellow buy it the right way.

James

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:32:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

>> Hmm...partially true, although I would say that's part of the power being
>> Visible, which is separate from Always On.
>
>Well, yes, but it is a drawback to the power being on all the time. If it
>wasn't on at all times, they could zap themselves in hiding and come out all
>buffed, and get similar levels of advantage for it.

That, at least, would take a little time and keep fading on them. Though
the slowed fade rate and increased maximum can be godawful, which is why I
don't let you use it together on any Adjustment power.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:11:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, James Jandebeur wrote:

> > Hmm...partially true, although I would say that's part of the power being
> > Visible, which is separate from Always On.
>
> Well, yes, but it is a drawback to the power being on all the time. If it
> wasn't on at all times, they could zap themselves in hiding and come out all
> buffed, and get similar levels of advantage for it.

I guess my point is that you get the same level of limitation for Always
On whether the power is Visible or Invisible, so I've never counted that
as a
disadvantage to a power being Always On.

> > > So, the Aid has a +4 advantage on it (Continuous, 0 End/Persistent, All
> > > primary characteristics) and a -1/2 limitation, so three dice costs 50
> real
> > > points. Unfortunately, that means the character gets in effect 12 real
> > > points for the physical characteristics
> >
> > Um, how do you figure that?
>
> Pardon, for *each* of the physical characteristics. If you bought the
> ability by getting the stats, you'd put the -1/2 No Figured Characteristics
> on each of them, so buying it correctly would be a total of 48 points,
> unless it had further limitations.

Oh, I see what I missed - you said the *real* points. I couldn't figure
out why you thought the mental characteristics were going to go up more
than the physical ones.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:11:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

At 01:41 PM 7/1/1999 EDT, DJHarkavy@aol.com wrote:
>A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
>increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced cost
>(it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
>
>I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying
of
>stats themselves, but it reduced the cost significantly. What do you all
>think?

I'm with you. If it had been "Only to Starting Value," that would've
been a different matter, but this is pretty abusive, for exactly the reason
you give.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:38:08 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Always On (was Aid for Stats)

> I guess my point is that you get the same level of limitation for Always
> On whether the power is Visible or Invisible, so I've never counted that
> as a
> disadvantage to a power being Always On.

True, but my brain works a little funny: it was brought up that it isn't
limiting, and the gray matter went off to find something, anything, that
might make it a little limiting. So it *might* be worth the limitation if it
was visible, but certainly wouldn't if it were invisible.

So, actually the level of limitation for Always On would change, if you
accept at all the premise that the visible power always around the character
is a limitation (you might judge it to be the realm of Distinctive Feature,
I generally would): it's worth -1/2 if it's visible, and nothing if it is
not.

I also think that if there are limitations on a power construct that Always
On would make worse, it can be worth the limitation, even if the base power
would not normally be allowed to have it. For example, and an extreme one at
that, if the power had a Side Effect on it, then Always On would make it go
off all the time, likely ending in the characters death or some such very
quickly. That's worth an extra bonus, surely. On the other hand, if it had
some kind of an advantage that makes Always On not a limitation (like in the
case of making it Invisible when the constant crackling energy is the only
drawback), then it is not worth a limitation. But that's all getting pretty
far afield.

You can get a bit creative with it: for example, Power Defense, Always On
could work against the Aid power as well as other adjustment powers, which
I've not seen as the base way Power Defense works otherwise. Armor, Always
On can prevent surgical procedures and other medical treatments, though
that's not likely enough to be worth more than a -1/4 and maybe less. And so
on.

The Aid power is still wrong, of course.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:25:52 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Aid for Stats

> >Well, yes, but it is a drawback to the power being on all the time. If it
> >wasn't on at all times, they could zap themselves in hiding and come out
all
> >buffed, and get similar levels of advantage for it.
>
> That, at least, would take a little time and keep fading on them. Though
> the slowed fade rate and increased maximum can be godawful, which is why I
> don't let you use it together on any Adjustment power.

True, but assuming they took the same advantages they would need to take if
it were Always On (Continuous and Persistent), it is still something of a
limitation. It is certainly more powerful than just the Aid, but it does
cost more.

Still, it's just wrong, so any discussion of it can only be of benefit if it
helps in the understanding of OTHER constructs. Which, well, you never know
when enlightenment will strike.

JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:59:40 -0400
From: "Nasset, Dave (TransAlliance)" <dave.nasset-eds@eds.com>
Subject: RE: Aid for Stats

From: DJHarkavy@aol.com [mailto:DJHarkavy@aol.com]

>
>
>A character in my game used AID, always on, to the 8 primary stats, with
>increases maximum to increase his stats significantly at a very reduced
cost
>(it ends up costing about 60% of the actual stats).
>
>I didn't allow it. I couldn't see any disadvantage compared to the buying
of
>stats themselves, but it reduced the cost significantly. What do you all
>think?

I think this is a perfect example of why Aid is going to cost twice as much
in the 5th Ed.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:26:54 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Fw:(crossposted) Yahoo Boycott

>Mailing-List: contact mektonz-help@mecha.com; run by ezmlm
>Reply-To: mektonz@mecha.com
>Delivered-To: mailing list mektonz@mecha.com
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:34:34 -0700 (MST)
>From: "David \"No Nickname\" Crowe" <jetman@primenet.com>
>To: Mekton Mailing List <mektonz@mecha.com>
>Subject: [MZML] Say...
>
>
>While the Yahoo affair is indeed bad and affects many people on the ML, it
>is not strictly topical. There is a message board on the topic at
>http://come.to/boycottyahoo and posting there will be much more
>productive, IMHO.
>
>David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
>
>Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game
>because they almost always turn out to be--or to be indistinguishable from
>--self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.
> -Neal Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:42:47 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Disadvantage, legal?

At 06:46 AM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:14 PM 6/30/1999 -0400, Juan Antonio Ramirez wrote:
>>Acutally... it wasn't a "pretty impressive" wheelchair, and it WAS a
>superheroic
>>game...
>>It was a stupid, stupid character, which the player did just cuz he knew
>I'd let
>>him...
>
> The wheelchair character Wayne's referring to was not the puppet you're
>going on about, but a young ex-athlete named Ferdinand "Duke" Lascalla, aka
>Overdrive, whose armored wheelchair could, if my figures are right, break
>30 MPH in brief bursts, in addition to its having a force field generator
>that can Reflect attacks back at his opponents.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]

Bob, I think that the puppet in the post above is the character that
started this thread, and that his discription was posted to clarify why he
is NOT like the one in Dr Drugs.


============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:18:14 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>
Subject: CHA: Demitri Shadowsilver

Here's a guy I was working on, blending a demi anime swordsman in AD&D's
Forgotton Realms...I like him....

DEMITRI SHADOWSILVER
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- 400kg; 4d6
23 DEX 48 14- OCV: 8; DCV: 8
20 CON 20 13-
12 BODY 4 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack 3d6
18 COM 4 13-
8 PD 4 Total PD/rPD: 10/2
4 ED 0 Total ED/rED 6/2
5 SPD 27 Phases: 3, 5, 8, 10, 12
8 REC 0
40 END 0
32 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 130

Movement: Run: 9"/36"
Swim: 2"/4"
Superleap: 14"/28"
Flight: 9"/36"

Powers & Skills
Multipower: Swordsmanship (45-pt reserve); OAF: Requires Two Weapons -
Preferably Swords: -1 (22)
u - 2d6 HKA: MultiSword Strike (Total 2d6); Range: 0; Autofire: 5
shots, ; OAF: Requires Two Weapons - Preferably Swords: -1; Limit: Two
Attacks (2) [4]
u - 3d6 HKA: Simultanious Strike (Total 4d6+1); Range: 0; Reduced
Penetration: -; OAF: Requires Two Weapons - Preferably Swords: -1 (2)
[4]
u - 1d6+1 HKA: Blade Storm (Total 1d6); Range: 0; Area Effect
(Radius): 3" radius, +1; Selective Target: +; OAF: Requires Two Weapons
- - Preferably Swords: -1 (2) [4]
u - Missile Deflection (Arrows, None, OCV 9); Deflect Attacks:
Adjacent, +; Deflection Bonus: 1, 2; OCV: 9; OAF: Requires Two Weapons
- - Preferably Swords: -1 (1)
u - 1d6+1 RKA: Thrown Sword; Range: 100; OAF: Requires Two Weapons -
Preferably Swords: -1 (1) [2]
Boots of the North Wind; IIF: -; Independent: -2 (19)
Superleap (+10", 14", NC: 28"); Non-Combat Multiplier: 2, +0; IIF: -;
Independent: -2 (3) [2]
Running (+3", 9", NC: 36"); Non-Combat Multiplier: 4, +5; Reduced END:
Half, +; Has Turn Mode: No, +0; IIF: -; Independent: -2 (4) [1]
Life Support: Intense Cold; IIF: -; Independent: -2 (1)
Clinging (Clinging STR +0); Ice only; only with feet: -1; IIF: -;
Independent: -2 (2)
9" Flight (NC: 36"); Non-Combat Multiplier: 4, +5; Reduced END: Zero &
Persistent, +1; Only in Elemental Plane of Air: Almost Completely, -2;
IIF: -; Independent: -2 (9) [0]
Enhanced Perception: Sight (Normal Sight, +2 to PER) (4)

Acrobatics 14- (3)
Animal Handler 11- (3)
Breakfall 14- (3)
Bribery 13- (3)
Bureaucratics 13- (3)
City Knowledge: Waterdeep 11- (2)
Climbing 14- (3)
Concealment 12- (3)
Contortionist 14- (3)
Disguise 11- (3)
Forgery 11- (3)
Gambling 12- (5)
High Society 13- (3)
Knowledge Skill: Escape Artistry 11- (2)
Knowledge Skill: Baldurian Nobility 11- (2)
Knowledge Skill: Lore: Baldur's Gate 11- (2)
Knowledge Skill: Religion (Mask) 11- (2)
Knowledge Skill: Sword Combat Styles 12- (3)
Elvish (Completely Fluent w/accent); Literacy: Standard, 0 (3)
Drow Elvish (Completely Fluent w/accent); Literacy: Standard, 0 (3)
Undercommon (Fluent Conv.); Literacy: Standard, 0 (2)
Lockpicking 14- (3)
Dirty Infighting (21)
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
Punch 0 +2 6d6
Roundhouse -2 +1 8d6
Low Blow -1 +1 2d6 NND
Disarm -1 +1 --
Kidney Blow -2 0 1d6+1 HKA
Fencing (22)
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
Thrust +1 +3 4d6
Lunge 0 +2 6d6
Slash -2 +1 8d6
Parry +2 +2 --
Disarm -1 +1 --
Contact: Mourn D'Jehar (Water Dehevian Sword Master) 11-; Usefulness:
Normal, +0 (2)
Gold Ring of Mourn (2)
Member of the Lower Nobility (2)
Riding 14- (3)
Security Systems 13- (5)
Shadowing 12- (5)
Sleight of Hand 14- (3)
Stealth 14- (3)
Streetwise 13- (3)
Survival 12- (5)
Ambidexterity (3)
Defense Maneuver (5)
Horses, Donkeys, Mules (1)
Clubs (0)
Swords (1)
Unarmed Combat (0)
Two Weapon Style (2)
Thrown knives/axes (1)
+3 level w/Swords (9)
+2 level w/HTH Combat (10)
+1 level w/All Combat (8)

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 231

Total Character Cost: 361

Disadvantages: + 100
Normal Characteristic Maxima (20)
Distinctive Features: Dejardo Family Traits; Concealability: Easily, 5;
Reaction: Noticed and Recognizable, +0 (5)
Hunted: Thalos Bonehanded (11-); Capabilities: More Powerful, 15;
Non-combat Influence: Extensive, +5; Geographical Area: Unlimited, -0;
Actions: Hunting, 1; Punishment: Harsh, 0 (25)
Hunted: Baron Jaques Blackwall (11-); Capabilities: As Powerful, 10;
Non-combat Influence: Extensive, +5; Geographical Area: Limited, -5;
Actions: Hunting, 1; Punishment: Harsh, 0 (15)
Poor (5)
Hunted: Shyssara Flamemane (8-); Capabilities: As Powerful, 10;
Non-combat Influence: None, +0; Geographical Area: Unlimited, -0;
Actions: Hunting, 1; Punishment: Harsh, 0 (10)
Code of Chivalry (Common, Total) (20)
Vengeful (Uncommon, Strong) (10)
Proud of Skills and Mentor (Common, Strong) (15)
Reputation: Master Swordsman (11-, Extreme) (15)
Reputation: Cursed Adventurer (8-, Extreme) (10)
Rivalry: Kainaristh Rainblade; Situation: Professional, 5; Position:
Equal, +0; Rival: NPC, +0 (5)
Secret Identity: Demitri Dejardo (Noble of Baldur's Gate) (15)
Watched: Thieve's Guild of Waterdeep (11-); Capabilities: More
Powerful, 15; Non-combat Influence: Extensive, +5; Geographical Area:
Limited, -5; Only Watching: ׽; Punishment: Harsh, 0 (10)
Total Disadvantage Points: 361

Weapons
Dagger (1d6+1K, OCV: +1); DC: 2; STUNx: 0; STR Min: 8; Weight: 0; Can
Be Thrown
Knife (1d6+1K, OCV: +1); DC: 2; STUNx: 0; STR Min: 6; Weight: 0; Can Be
Thrown
Broad Sword (1d6K, OCV: +1); DC: 4; STUNx: 0; STR Min: 13; Weight: 0
Broad Sword (1d6K, OCV: +1); DC: 4; STUNx: 0; STR Min: 13; Weight: 0
Equipment
Leather (Coverage: Full, PD 2, ED 2); Weight: 5
Lockpicks (0kg)

Height: 186cm (6'1"), Weight: 78kg (172 lbs), Sex: Male, Age: 24, Race:
Human
Appearance: Hair: Black, silver highlights, long and staight; Eyes: Gray

Demitri wears gray, silver and black exclusively.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 07:13:38 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Variable powers

At 09:20 PM 6/30/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> So, I *do* allow for the need to create new Limitations, as long as: (a) no
>> specific modifier already exists to fit the requirements, and (b) the
>> parameters of the proposed new Limitation cannot be described by any of the
>> following phrases...
>> * Power only works (or does not work) when/if/unless/while <condition>
>> * Power loses some of its effectiveness
>
>That description covers every example in the book. If I went by that,
>I would have to assume that one should _never_ create a new
>Limitation.

You may feel it covers every example in the book (I don't, and see below
for details) but it's taken directly from the writeup of Limited Power, so
I don't feel I'm in error by using those parameters.

>Additionally, it seems to me that you are misunderstanding part of
>what I am contending. I am not trying to create a new Advantage for a
>limited job more easily handled on a case by case basis. I am trying
>to create a fairly broad Advantage to cover a variety of cases not
>covered now, plus replace an Advantage that I think does its job
>poorly.

I think this part right here is where we disagree, or at least most
misunderstand each other. I agree that it is legitimate to create new
[prefereably broad] modifiers to cover a variety of cases not being
adequately handled by existing modifiers. Since this is what you perceive
yourself to be doing, we're actually in agreement so far.

Where we disagree is on whether or not those cases /are/ adequately
covered, and whether the Advantage is doing its job as well as it could,
and thus on whether there's a need to do it at this time.

>I still do not see the difference. You still haven't defined a single
>example of when it might be good to create a new modifier, and your
>description would, as best I can determine, even now, still ban _all_
>new modifiers, because any new modifier you could create is already
>covered by Limited Power.

Since not all existing modifiers are covered by the parameters I extracted
from Limited Power, it should follow that not all new modifiers would be
covered by them, either. I hope by now I've managed to convince you I
would not ban all new modifiers. As for giving you a specific example of a
new Limitation, I cannot do that off the top of my head, since in order to
create one I'd need to identify one or more (perferably several) cases of
reasonable limitations that are not already covered by the parameters I
extracted from Limited Power, then write a 'breakout' Limitation in order
to cover them.

I have taken the position that Limited Power is adequate for pretty much
anything not covered by one of the other, more specific, Limitations; in
effect, I'd have to work /against/ that argument in order to find and
create a new Limitation -- a Limitation I do not presently see any need for.

>_All_ Limitations could be replaced by Limited Power. You said we do
>not need to create a new Limitation if Limited Power covers the case
>already. Since all Limitations can be covered by Limited Power, all
>new Limitations are covered by Limited Power. Therefore, as best as I
>can determine, there are no possible new Limitations that should ever
>be created.

Again, not all existing modifiers are covered by the parameters I extracted
from Limited Power. Let's look at a few, in connection with these phrases:

* Power only works (or does not work) when/if/unless/while <condition>
* Power loses some of its effectiveness

ALWAYS ON, INCREASED END COST, INDEPENDENT - None of these Limitations make
the Power conditional, nor do they reduce its effectiveness. You cannot,
for example, argue that Increased END Cost makes the Power usable "only
when the character has sufficient END" because that's true for all
END-using Powers, without the Limitation.

SIDE EFFECTS, VISIBLE - These Limitations create certain consequences for
the character when the Power is used, and thus there may well be times when
the character may choose not to use that Power. But the Limitation doesn't
actually prevent it, nor does the Power do any less than it would without
the Limitation. So again, these modifiers do not make the Power
conditional, nor do they reduce its effectiveness.

FOCUS - Focus *does* make a Power conditional. However, it's legitimately
broken out of Limited Power due to the sheer volume of the explanatory
text; there are enough things to be specified about a Focus that it isn't
adequately covered by: Limited (Conditional) Power, "Only when holding
<object>" -1/2. You have to define whether or not it's obvious, how
accessible it it, bulk, fragility...

>Well, if I was rewriting it for that purpose, or even cared a tiny bit
>who was right in that discussion, I'd probably do what you say. Since
>I consider it to be one of the most meaningless and trivial
>discussions this list has ever generated, I won't.

Then remind me why you think it needs rewriting. Perhaps then it will
makes sense to me that you are ready to rewrite and replace an existing
modifier rather than get a clairification on it.

Damon

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #441
*****************************


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Date: Monday, September 06, 1999 10:37 AM