Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 472

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 12:34 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #472


champ-l-digest Wednesday, July 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 472



In this issue:

RE: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: Commments on a vehicle
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Idea: Scale Hero
RE: Comments on a vehicle
Change Environment
RE: Idea: Scale Hero
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Young Justice Writeups?
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
RE: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
RE: Comments on a vehicle
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
RE: Comments on a vehicle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:51:28 -0700
From: "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net>
Subject: RE: Extra Time & Multipower Slots

So, let me see if I understand this correctly. If I activate a multipower
slot that is an attack power w/ extra time, I can also activate other
"non-attack" power slots as long as I have points remaining in the multipower
pool? However, I cannot activate another attack power slot until the proper
extra time has elasped. Is everybody in agreement w/ this?
I like this. At least mages or other characters w/ the extra time lim can
have some defense power up while they are perparing a time consuming attack
power within their multipower. Again, assuming the attack power does not eat
up all of the multipower's point pool.

GAZZA wrote:

> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> > * "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
> > | For example, if I have a 30 pt. pool with a 6d6 EB (Fireball spell
> > | or something) that requires Extra Time: 1 Turn, can I have another
> > | slot using 30 pts (15/15 FF or something) running until the 6d6 EB is
> > | ready??
> >
> > No. You cannot activate any other powers while you are spending your
> > Extra Time to activate a power.
>
> In fact this is NOT the case, although I will concede that it is often
> the way it tends to be (wrongly) interpreted. If I have a series of
> powers such as Force Field, Flight, and Shapeshift that all have the
> Extra Time limitation, I CAN activate the Flight and the Shapeshift
> while I'm spending time to activate the Force Field. Indeed, I can
> activate all three at once - it will simply take longer for them to
> "turn on".
>
> The exception is for a power that requires an Attack Roll - you can't
> make any other attacks while you're waiting for that to turn on.
>
> (As an aside - I would suggest that this also applied to a power that
> would NORMALLY require an Attack Roll but doesn't in this circumstance -
> for example, an Aid used on yourself).
>
> > No. Once you change the point allocation to a slot in a Multipower, you
> > effectively have a different power than you had before. This will also
> > nullify your prep time. That is, if you decide to switch some points
> > into your Force Field slot, that changes your EB slot and you have to
> > start over again.
>
> This, however, I agree with. The same logic in Ninja Hero is used to
> state that if you have a Multipower Aid and you switch slots, you
> immediately lose all benefits of the slot that was previously activated.
>
> > | Or, in this particular example, is the mage a sitting duck until one
> > | turn has passed?
> >
> > You always have the option of canceling the activation of the power.
>
> Given that it IS very common to view "Extra Time" as "I can't do
> anything until this time elapses", perhaps a new limitation that
> reflects this is in order. It would, in general, be more limiting than
> Extra Time is.
> --
> GAZZA
> "To know others is wisdom.
> To know one's self is enlightenment."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:07:31 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Commments on a vehicle

At 11:51 PM 7/27/1999 GMT, Sheehys wrote:
>I would like some help. I am trying to build a submarine that will
>swim through the water as well as the soil of the earth but not
>through solid rock. It also has the intelligence of a four year old
>child and should get into trouble as much as a four year old does. =20
>This is what I have so far. Any commits would be greated appricated.

I only have a couple of comments, but I think they were over things you
were having problems with.

>-12 Ground Movement (0", NC: 0", 0mph); Non-Combat Multiplier: =D72,
> +0; Has Turn Mode: No, +0
>27 Swimming (24", NC: 192", 214mph); Non-Combat Multiplier: =D78,
> +10; Has Turn Mode: No, +0; Limited Power works only
> in water or earth: Slightly, -=BC

Swimming that "works only in water or earth" is not really a Limitation,
since Swimming already only works in water (or other liquids). If you mean
that it can work in water but not other liquids, then you could get that
- -1/4 Limitation, but I doubt that that's what you mean.
To travel through the earth, you need Tunneling. To limit it to going
through soft soil and not rock, just put a Limitation on it. The
Limitation can be much higher than -1/4, since it effectively lowers the
DEF that it can cut through; probably -1 would be appropriate. (I think
5th Ed Tunneling with give a full separation of movement and DEF, but I'm
not 100% sure on that.)

>4 +4 INT (4)

Either the Vehicle has INT (with a base of 10), or it doesn't. To have
4 INT actually gets the vehicle back 6 points, just like having 4 INT on a
computer or regular character.
Some may protest that this gives the vehicle a benefit (4 points of INT)
while also giving back points (six of them). Gee, I'll go do that with all
of my vehicles! Well, maybe, and maybe not. Besides making the vehicle
subject to computer viruses, INT-based mentalist attacks, and Images, it
also enables the vehicle to make evaluations of information that may or may
not be correct.

>12 Change Environment Soil to Water (8" rad.); Effect: Variable,
> +1; Special Effect: Magic; Always On: -=BD;
> Independent: -2; Limited Power: Only on Ship: -=BD;
> Reduced END: Zero, =BD (50) 0

This, I'm guessing, is how you manage (in your current construct) to
allow the sub to "swim" through soft soil. In a way, it's kind of a cheat,
since all it does is allow another Power to work mechanically where it
shouldn't otherwise. It may seem perfectly allowable in general, but I
sure wouldn't allow it in a game where I was GM.
Even that aside, I'd seriously question the use of Independent on this,
as well as on the Life Support.
- ---
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http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:12:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies

At 05:35 PM 7/27/1999 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>
>Assuming the Gilligan's Island movie includes a remake of the premiere, and
>is not a Castaways: Many Years After story, I'd like to see Katie Holmes as
>Mary Ann. Julia Louis-Dreyfuss is okay, but Katie Holmes is hard to beat
>for that wholesome appearance.

I probably would've gone for Beverly Mitchell (of "Seventh Heaven"), but
then I'd have to wait about five years. :-]
My vote for playing Professor Roy Hinkley: Robert Carradine.
And for Thurston Howell III, David Ogden Stiers.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Idea: Scale Hero

An idea I was suddenly playing with. Comments on this?

Scale Hero -- Heroes from Ants to Godzilla.

The hero system is really mostly designed for human-level scale; once
you start getting into really large attacks, statistical anomalies start
making the system really kind of break down (10d+1 killing really doesn't
feel like twice as big as 10d killing, for example). Likewise, movement,
attacks, almost everything is designed around a specific scale. This
scale works nicely for superheroes, but it frequently breaks down for
other objects. In recognition of this fact, I have invented Scale Hero.

Scale Hero is designed around one simple idea: two creatures on the same
scale can interact with no changes in rules, and with stats that are
relatively normal. This required cleaning up some cases where Hero is
inconsistent between linear and logarithmic, but that's something that
is sort of worth fixing anyway. Scale directly affects the following:
hex size, weights, and segment/turn length. In particular: double hex
size for every +1 scale; halve for every -1 scale. Double turn length
for every +2 scale, halve for every +2 scale; for intermediate values,
average the two. Weights are multiplied by 8 for every +1 scale. Yes,
having time go faster on small scales is basically accurate.

Combat and Environment in Scale Hero

Between two characters at the same scale, very few rules are changed; the
following changes do apply, however.

Knockback and Knockdown: rolling dice for knockback is removed; the results
are considerably too random. Instead, knockback is zero for 0-6 body,
knockdown for 7-8 body, knockback 1-4" for 9-12 body, doubled for every
added +2 body. Knockback resistance subtracts directly from body. Add +2
body to knockback on flyers; halve the body of killing attacks for
knockback purposes.

Collisions: a collision does 2d damage at 1 hex/segment; each doubling in
velocity gives +2d6. Add 1d6 per doubling in mass, based on the mass
of the lighter object.

Moveby and Movethrough: for a moveby, average strength and collision damage.
For a movethrough, add half of collision damage to strength damage.

Falls: a 1 hex fall does 4d damage; each doubling in distance is +1d. The
maximum damage (due to terminal velocity) is (14-scale)d6. Weight adds as
per collision; in addition, every level of DI or 3 levels of growth adds
1d to the maximum damage, every level of shrinking subtracts 1d.

Lifting Things: at any scale, 'characters' require 10 STR to lift; for other
objects, figure that the STR to lift the object is equivalent to the STR for
a human to lift an object with the same relative size. A character-sized
object requires 10 STR for most manufactured objects, 25-30 STR for a boulder,
about 40 STR for a lump of iron.

Breaking Things: high body causes a lot of statistical anomalies, so I
don't give large objects high body. All objects are assumed to have
10 Body and DEF based on material -- 1-3 for structures and people, 2-4
for wood, 5-8 for stone, 10-15 for metal. Subtract the scale of the
object from DEF; if this results in DEF < 1, remainder is subtracted
from BOD (gravity makes this not true of planets. The earth is scale +22,
has +2 levels of DI, and PD/ED 4/4). This is for a 'character-sized' object;
for larger objects, treat as an alternate scale, or simply subtract 1d from
all attacks on the object per doubling in mass.

Converting between Scales

First, decide what your 'base' scale is; all other objects have a
'relative scale' -- equal to the difference between the base scale and
the scale of the object. Then apply these modifications to the character.
*Note: I assume scale affects mental powers as well as physical powers.
You may choose otherwise.

Damage: add 4*RS damage classes to all of the character's attacks.
Defenses: subtract 4*RS damage classes from all attacks on the character.
STR: add 15*RS to strength for lifting purposes (use damage rules for strikes).
Area: each point of RS doubles area (or halves, for negative values). At
+4 RS, non-area attacks are treated as area effect 1 hex.
OCV/DCV: subtract RS from OCV, DCV, and ECV.
Range: subtract 2*RS from range modifiers to hit the character. This will
not increase range modifiers by more than 4. If the character has RS 3+,
he automatically gains 2*(RS-2) levels to negate range, which only apply
to attacking small objects (this is due to a 'spreading' effect).
Perception: add 2*RS to rolls to notice the subject; subtract 2*RS from
the subject's perception rolls, but negate an equal number of range levels.
SPD: halve SPD for every +2 RS; double for every -2 RS. +1 RS gives
- -30% to SPD; -1 RS gives +40%.

Point Cost of Scale

Normally, scale is a feature of a setting, not a particular character,
and is thus not worth anything. Being in an alternate scale is extremely
powerful (though likely to be inconvenient); I suggest a base cost
of 120 points (treat as a persistant, special power), which can be
reduced by various disadvantages; alternately, treat as a 80 point perk
(equivalent to always on).

Some random notes:
Why +4 DC for 3 doublings in mass? Given constant acceleration, double
size gives 16x energy (8xforce over 2x distance).
Why longer segments? Given constant acceleration, 4x size doubles
the length of time taken to change position (but you move 4x as far in
that time).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:02:11 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Comments on a vehicle

> I would like some help. I am trying to build a submarine that will
> swim through the water as well as the soil of the earth but not
> through solid rock. It also has the intelligence of a four year old
> child and should get into trouble as much as a four year old does.
> This is what I have so far. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

You asked for it...you got it! I would suggest the following changes:

> 27 Swimming (24", NC: 192", 214mph); Non-Combat Multiplier: 8,
> +10; Has Turn Mode: No, +0; Limited Power works only
> in water or earth: Slightly, -

The last limitation is not appropriate; swimming by definition only
applies in liquids. Moving through solids requires Tunneling.

> 12 Change Environment Soil to Water (8" rad.); Effect: Variable,
> +1; Special Effect: Magic; Always On: -;
> Independent: -2; Limited Power: Only on Ship: -;
> Reduced END: Zero, (50) 0

This is too extreme an effect for Change Environment, and doesn't even
really produce the effect you want, I think, as it leaves water-filled
tunnels behind. The Tunneling power would more accurately create the
effect you're looking for.

> 2 Life Support: High Pressure/Vacuum; Effect: Variable, +1;
> Special Effect: Magic; Always On: -; Independent: -2;
> Limited Power: Only on Ship: -; Reduced END: Zero,
> (7) 0
>
> 2 Life Support: Intense Heat/Cold; Effect: Variable, +1; Special
> Effect: Magic; Always On: -; Independent: -2; Limited
> Power: Only on Ship: -; Reduced END: Zero, (7)

I'm afraid that none of the advantages/limitations here are appropriate:

Variable (+1) is an advantage applied only to Change Environment, and
not to Life Support. You only need to purchase LS once for pressures
and once for temperatures. Working only for heat, or only for high
pressures would be a (IMHO) -1 limitation on that purchase.

Always on (-1/2) is not appropriate because there is no disadvantage
to having the power always on; therefore it is not worth anything as
a limitation.

Independent (-2) is only allowed if the power also has the "Focus"
limitation at some level. Having the Focus limitation would imply
that the life support is created by a component of the vehicle that
can be easily removed (within one turn). Adding independent means
that if the item is taken, the character must re-pay the points
for the equipment in order to replace it. In this case, I would
suggest that neither is really desirable.

Limited Power: Only on Ship (-1/2) is not appropriate because it is
the ship that is purchasing the power. How would the power be
separated from the ship, and thus make the limitation worth anything?
This is assuming that you really want the power as part of the
ship itself. Two possible alternate situations that you might be
looking for:

1) There is a magic gizmo in the ship that creates an atmosphere.
In this case, add Focus, and define it as a personal focus if
you only want it to work on the ship, or a universal focus if
you want it to work anywhere. Add independent if you want to
risk the points being lost for good. Bulky (an additional
-1/2) is also often used for vehicle equipment.

2) The ship and the character have a magical interaction which
allows the character to breathe underwater only if he's on the
ship. In this case, the /character/ would buy the LS, and the
"Only on Ship" limitation would be appropriate (worth about -1,
I'd say).

Reduced END: Zero (+1/2) is not needed. Life support is a special
power, and thus costs no endurance by default.

> 4 +4 INT (4)
> 20 +10 EGO (20)
> 25 Psych. Lim.: Egotistical (Very Common, Total)
> 15 Psych. Lim. Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)
> 20 Psych. Lim.: Curiosity (Very Common, Strong)

These stats and psychlims are not allowed for vehicles (as of 4th
Edition). Instead, purchase an AI (see HSR p182). Something that
isn't entirely clear from the rules is whether the points of an
AI that resides in the vehicle are paid for by the vehicle, or by
the character. HSR p189 "Computers", could be interpreted to say
that the character has to pay the cost. Were I GMing, I would
allow the vehicle to pay the cost, if the AI could not leave the
vehicle.

----Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:09:02 CDT
From: "Richard King" <baron_leo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Change Environment

A while ago on the list (like a year ago, I guess) someone sent their
version of Change Environment that was kind of based on Transform. It gave
info on how much a Environment could change and for what cost and to how it
was limited in affecting the characters.

Does anyone have a copy? I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:32:30 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Idea: Scale Hero

I made a somewhat similar set of rules a while ago, drawing on the
SIZE mechanic used in vehicles. They're not as broad in scope as
the Scale rules just proposed, as they were mainly focused on fixing
the discrepancies in Growth and Shrinking. Still left is the
always tricky part of setting the costs.

==================================================================

Characters have a SIZE attribute, which begins at zero. Size may
be purchased for ? CP per point (or sold back for ? CP per point).
GM permission is require to purchase a SIZE of less than -9.
(This will also require the character to purchase additional BODY).
When characters with different SIZE attributes interact, apply a
modifier equal to 2/3of the difference:

As a bonus to the smaller character's DCV and PER vs. the larger.
As a penalty to the larger character's DCV and PER vs. the smaller.

If there is a size difference of 12 or more, the larger character's
melee attacks may be considered to be area effect to the smaller
character, at the GM's option. [1]

Every point of SIZE gives:
x2 Mass
+5 STR, no figured characteristics
- -1 KB
+1 BODY, with figured characteristics (+1 STUN)

Every 3 points of SIZE gives:
x2 height
+2 OCV and PER vs. range
x2 reach [1]
x2 base movement [2]
x2 maximum range on non-ECV based powers

Note that these effects are reversed for decreasing size, and
negative STR is possible. [3]

Growth is now defined as allowing the character to increase his
SIZE attribute by one point, for a cost of ? CP.

Shrinking is now defined as allowing the character to decrease
his SIZE attribute by one point, for a cost of ? CP. If the
character does not want his BODY to decrease, he may purchase
additional BODY with the limitation "Only to compensate for SIZE" (-1/2).

Optionally, a "Size Control" power may be made available which allows
the character to change his SIZE attribute in either direction for ? CP.

Growth, Shrinking, and Size Control are standard, constant powers.

======================================================================
[1] It would be good to come up with something more specific here.
Perhaps the person receives an AE: nonselective radius
(radius = 2*(SIZE difference - 12)+1)?

[2] How does the change in reach interact with someone who buys
stretching?

[3] How does the change in base movement interact with someone buying
that movement up or down?

[4] For balance purposes, it might be a good idea for the base TK STR
for characters with negative SIZE be equal to their modified base
physical STR. Otherwise, it gets too easy to make a mighty-mite
who uses TK instead of STR.
======================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:55:55 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies

> (This does kind of relate to this list, BTW, in that I think that
> "Gilligan's Island" would make an interesting setting for a published
HERO
> System game. Once, when I was gaming in Salem, someone threw together
a
> Gilligan's Island one-shot game using the HERO System, and while I
wasn't
> able to participate in it, I did hear stories about it afterward about
how
> much fun it was.)

Don't forget who the biggest fan of "Gilligan's Island" is -- this is
just begging for Foxbat to get involved somehow.

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:56:06 -0500
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net>
Subject: Young Justice Writeups?

Has anyone done any Young Justice (DC's teen heroes) Champions writeups.
If so, can they email them to me, point me to the URL, send me Heromaker
or Hero Creator files, etc.?

I'm doing a multiversal crossover adventure right now titled: "Secret
Crisis Wars on Infinite Worlds", and so far the characters (from San
Angelo) have met the X-Men, Gen-13, Dr. Destroyer, and they are
currently in the DCU. Young Justice arrived as the final "page" of the
last session, and I'm currently writing them up myself, but if someone
can save me some work...?

Thanks in Advance,
Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:22:47 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies

At 05:12 PM 7/27/1999 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:35 PM 7/27/1999 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>>
>>Assuming the Gilligan's Island movie includes a remake of the premiere, and
>>is not a Castaways: Many Years After story, I'd like to see Katie Holmes as
>>Mary Ann. Julia Louis-Dreyfuss is okay, but Katie Holmes is hard to beat
>>for that wholesome appearance.
>
> I probably would've gone for Beverly Mitchell (of "Seventh Heaven"), but
>then I'd have to wait about five years. :-]

You might easily have to wait that long for her to /look/ old enough, but
Beverly will be 19 in January; she's actually 14 months older than "big"
sister Jessica Biel. Katie Holmes turns 21 just before Christmas, so
there's really not that much difference in their ages.

> And for Thurston Howell III, David Ogden Stiers.

Or Kelsey Grammer. Let's see...Susan Sullivan as Mrs. Howell? Kathy
Ireland as Ginger? Topher Grace as Gilligan? (Most of you won't recognize
that last name, but he plays Eric Forman on "That 70's Show.")

Damon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:21:04 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
> | I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
> | says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
> | as to when you recover.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Yes, my point exactly. The book says "when". It does not say "if". Even
> if you are -1x10^128 Stun, you will, eventually, recover.

You obviously didn't read my origanal post completely. I gave
the character a recovery every second, of every minute of every
hour of every day of every year. It takes a person with a 4
recovery 1x10^119 years to recover. So unless they said
character has full life support, they are dead long before they can
recover the lost stun.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:00 -0700
From: avargas@netzero.net
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks

I know this question has been answered (I haven't read all the
replies, but I /know/ it's been answered). If it makes you feel any
better, Simon, that is exactly the misconception I had when I first
started playing Hero many (too many) years ago. It's an easy
assumption to make.

After those many years of playing Hero, it finally dawned on me
that, at least for some champaigns, my old 'mistake' was actually
a darn good idea. Now days, when I run 4 color, or most other
superhero genre games, I just apply the STNx to the BOD that
actually penetrates defenses. It makes KAs much less powerful,
and bullet proof characters much easier to build. When a brick can
be apropriately bullet-proof without busting the campaign caps on
defense wide open, the whole game just works that much better.


On 22 Jul 99, at 18:09, Simon David Taylor wrote:

> In a Hero System game I ran recently, one of the PCs was hit by a HKA, and
> due to the hit location rolled and a +1 Stun multiplier ended up taking 50
> points of Stun damage and 10 Body. The Body didn't penetrate the armour he
> was wearing, but the Stun did, and was enough to leave him unconscious. I'm
> wondering now if I was fair to that character.
>
> The Hero System Rules aren't entirely clear on this; do Killing Attacks
> still do Stun even if no Body damage penetrates the target's Resistant
> defences? Is there a rule anywhere that the target of a Killing Attack only
> takes Stun if at least 1 point of Body damage is taken? At the moment, I can
> think of justifications for doing it either way.
>
> Simon D. Taylor
>
> beron@unforgettable.com
> http://start.at/labyrinth
>
>
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:00 -0700
From: avargas@netzero.net
Subject: RE: Stun from Killing Attacks

On 22 Jul 99, at 16:54, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Bryant Berggren wrote:
> > At 01:31 PM 7/22/99 -0400, Johnson, Adam wrote:
> > > You're wearing a Kevlar vest, which provides resistant defense from
> > > bullets. (Not knives, though... a knife or icepick will go through Kevlar
> > > rather easily, if memory serves.) Just for grins, you have a hard armor
> > > insert.
> > >
> > > You get hit in the insert, but the bullet does not penetrate. The energy
> > > is still transferred, but as something called blunt trauma, over the area
> > > (or a portion) of the armored insert. Granted, it will knock the wind out
> > > of you, probably break a couple of ribs, and knock you over. However, you
> > > didn't take any BODY, just STUN. (What is the STUN multiple for a chest
> > > shot? I don't have any of my books with me right now.)

That's a good illustration of why making lighter body armor Damage
Resistance makes a good deal of sense. A tough character with a
good PD will do better at resisting the BOD from a non-penetrating
hit than will a wimpy one...

> > A hit that "breaks a couple of ribs" probably did BODY. STUN damage is
> > transient; breaking bones sticks around for a long painful time after the fight.
>
> This makes an interesting question...what would the limitation on armor be
> for the opposite of Hardened? i.e. the armor acts as though all attacks
> against it were Penetrating? -1/2? More? This would be an ideal
> limitation for 'flexible armor'...

I've used exactly that limitation: Flawed -1/2, Defense acts as if all
attacks aplied agianst it had the Penetrating advantage.
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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:00 -0700
From: avargas@netzero.net
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts

On 25 Jul 99, at 20:49, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> * "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
> | A player of mine wants to buy martial arts as Armor Piercing. How does one
> | do that ?
>
> You buy Hand-to-Hand Attack or Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack with Armor
> Piercing. The example from Ninja Hero pp47:
>
> An example: Let's say a character has STR 15 and a slew of maneuver
> giving him up to 7d6 damage. He can buy:
>
> Example: Hand-to-Hand Attack, 4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2);
> 24 pts.
>
> This will give him a 6d6 armor-piercing normal attack.
>
> You might be asking yourself, why doesn't it give him 7d6? STR 15 is
> 3d6, plus 4d6 from H-to-H Attack equals 7d6, right? Well, that's wrong
> -- in this case.
>
> 4d6 of H-to-H Attack is 12 points' worth of power (not counting the Armor
> Piercing advantage). Therefore, the character, since he has not bought
> Armor Piercing for his STR, can only add STR 12 to it -- for +2d6. Thus,
> it's a 6d6 attack. If he were to buy Armor Piercing for his STR, he
> could have his full 7d6.
>

Rat is right, that is the way to do it - buy an AP HA, let your STR &
Martial Arts add to it like they would to a weapon in Ninja Hero (no
more than doubling the dice of the HA). Buy it at right about half
the DC you typically dish out and you're in good shape.

Rat's bit about how STR adds to an AP attack is a little wierd
though. Unless someone at Hero Games has issued an odd ruling
recently, you pro-rate the STR. 15 STR is 3 DCs is equal to 2d of
AP attack, not 3d. Simple.

Again, I'd agree that there should be a limit to how much you can
'add' to an HA this way. I think DCs, though, and not Apts, would
be the logical determinant. Sadly, AFAIK, 4th Ed doesn't support
either of our ideas. HAs add to STR in 4th Ed, not the other way
around, so there's technically no such limit. One reason I've
always thought that HAs should work mechanically like HKAs, and
cost 5/d6. I believe I heard a rumor tha HA was going away in 5th
Ed, I wonder want the 'official' way of dealing with this sort of
question will be?

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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:02:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Comments on a vehicle

At 09:02 PM 7/27/1999 -0400, Scott A. Colcord wrote:
>
>> 2 Life Support: High Pressure/Vacuum; Effect: Variable, +1;
>> Special Effect: Magic; Always On: -=BD; Independent: -2;
>> Limited Power: Only on Ship: -=BD; Reduced END: Zero, =BD
>> (7) 0
>>
>> 2 Life Support: Intense Heat/Cold; Effect: Variable, +1; Special
>> Effect: Magic; Always On: -=BD; Independent: -2; Limited
>> Power: Only on Ship: -=BD; Reduced END: Zero, =BD (7)
>
>I'm afraid that none of the advantages/limitations here are appropriate:

Ah, yes, I'd missed this -- except:

>Independent (-2) is only allowed if the power also has the "Focus"
>limitation at some level. Having the Focus limitation would imply
>that the life support is created by a component of the vehicle that
>can be easily removed (within one turn). Adding independent means
>that if the item is taken, the character must re-pay the points
>for the equipment in order to replace it. In this case, I would
>suggest that neither is really desirable.

This is not quite true. Independent *can* be taken without the Focus
Limitation, or else it would simply be a part of the Focus Limitation.
Even if that weren't enough, the very description of Independent says that
it "doesn't have to be tied to an item." (See the fifth paragraph,
starting with the third sentence.) In this case, it means that if the Life
Support is damaged and broken, Dispelled, or lost in any other way, it's
gone for good (or, at least, the points spent on it are; it can be bought
again with a separate investment of experience points).
The rest of what you say about the Advantages and Limitations is all
correct.

>> 4 +4 INT (4)
>> 20 +10 EGO (20)
>> 25 Psych. Lim.: Egotistical (Very Common, Total)
>> 15 Psych. Lim. Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)
>> 20 Psych. Lim.: Curiosity (Very Common, Strong)
>
>These stats and psychlims are not allowed for vehicles (as of 4th
>Edition). Instead, purchase an AI (see HSR p182). Something that
>isn't entirely clear from the rules is whether the points of an
>AI that resides in the vehicle are paid for by the vehicle, or by
>the character. HSR p189 "Computers", could be interpreted to say
>that the character has to pay the cost. Were I GMing, I would
>allow the vehicle to pay the cost, if the AI could not leave the
>vehicle.

The first sentence in your response is only true because The Ultimate
Vehicle was delayed until after the release of 5th Edition. In my
manuscript for TUV (and while I can't be completely certain, I have every
reason to believe that this rule will survive to the final cut), I give the
option of allowing a Vehicle to have INT and EGO as Characteristics,
representing a built-in computer/AI. Note that this isn't a separate
computer with its own DEX and SPD, but something that is part and parcel
with the Vehicle itself -- damage to the Vehicle in this case is also
damage to the computer (if the computer is separate, it can be saved even
if the vehicle is totaled.)
And a Vehicle with INT and EGO, of course, can have Psychological
Limitations just like anything else with those Characteristics.
But, like I say, this is stuff you can expect to see in TUV, and like
you say, that's how it is for 4th Edition.=20
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:26:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies

At 09:22 PM 7/27/1999 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>>
>> I probably would've gone for Beverly Mitchell (of "Seventh Heaven"), but
>>then I'd have to wait about five years. :-]
>
>You might easily have to wait that long for her to /look/ old enough, but
>Beverly will be 19 in January; she's actually 14 months older than "big"
>sister Jessica Biel. Katie Holmes turns 21 just before Christmas, so
>there's really not that much difference in their ages.

I did not know that about Beverly, but then I don't follow the facts on
the cast as much as I'd like. (And I consider David Gallagher to be one of
the best actors of his age in a very long time.)

>> And for Thurston Howell III, David Ogden Stiers.
>
>Or Kelsey Grammer. Let's see...Susan Sullivan as Mrs. Howell? Kathy
>Ireland as Ginger? Topher Grace as Gilligan? (Most of you won't recognize
>that last name, but he plays Eric Forman on "That 70's Show.")

A couple of years ago, I did a quick list for how I'd cast Gilligan's
Island if I were doing it today. Sure enough, I also went with Kathy
Ireland for Ginger Grant, but my Gilligan was Matt Lawrence (Joey's
next-younger brother).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 00:33:07 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Comments on a vehicle

> >Independent (-2) is only allowed if the power also has the "Focus"
> >limitation at some level. Having the Focus limitation would imply
> >that the life support is created by a component of the vehicle that
> >can be easily removed (within one turn). Adding independent means
> >that if the item is taken, the character must re-pay the points
> >for the equipment in order to replace it. In this case, I would
> >suggest that neither is really desirable.
>
> This is not quite true. Independent *can* be taken without the Focus
> Limitation, or else it would simply be a part of the Focus Limitation.
> Even if that weren't enough, the very description of Independent says that
> it "doesn't have to be tied to an item." (See the fifth paragraph,
> starting with the third sentence.) In this case, it means that if the
Life
> Support is damaged and broken, Dispelled, or lost in any other way, it's
> gone for good (or, at least, the points spent on it are; it can be bought
> again with a separate investment of experience points).
> The rest of what you say about the Advantages and Limitations is all
> correct.

Whups...you're right there, Bob...my bad.

> >> 4 +4 INT (4)
> >> 20 +10 EGO (20)
> >> 25 Psych. Lim.: Egotistical (Very Common, Total)
> >> 15 Psych. Lim. Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)
> >> 20 Psych. Lim.: Curiosity (Very Common, Strong)
> >
> >These stats and psychlims are not allowed for vehicles (as of 4th
> >Edition). Instead, purchase an AI (see HSR p182). Something that
> >isn't entirely clear from the rules is whether the points of an
> >AI that resides in the vehicle are paid for by the vehicle, or by
> >the character. HSR p189 "Computers", could be interpreted to say
> >that the character has to pay the cost. Were I GMing, I would
> >allow the vehicle to pay the cost, if the AI could not leave the
> >vehicle.
>
> The first sentence in your response is only true because The Ultimate
> Vehicle was delayed until after the release of 5th Edition. In my
> manuscript for TUV (and while I can't be completely certain, I have every
> reason to believe that this rule will survive to the final cut), I give
the
> option of allowing a Vehicle to have INT and EGO as Characteristics,
> representing a built-in computer/AI. Note that this isn't a separate
> computer with its own DEX and SPD, but something that is part and parcel
> with the Vehicle itself -- damage to the Vehicle in this case is also
> damage to the computer (if the computer is separate, it can be saved even
> if the vehicle is totaled.)
> And a Vehicle with INT and EGO, of course, can have Psychological
> Limitations just like anything else with those Characteristics.
> But, like I say, this is stuff you can expect to see in TUV, and like
> you say, that's how it is for 4th Edition.

Thanks for the advance info...I think that your way sounds decidedly simpler
than the 4th edition way. I'm still wishing for a unified set of incomplete
character rules, though...<sigh>.

----Scott

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #472
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