Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 71

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 12:59 AM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #71 
champ-l-digest       Saturday, December 5 1998       Volume 01 : Number 071 
In this issue: 
    Re: AP/Penetrating question 
    Re: AP/Penetrating question 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: AP/Penetrating question 
    Re: AP/Penetrating question 
    Re: some dumb questions for the list.  
    Re: some dumb questions for the list. 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    The Mountie 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: AP/Penetrating question 
    Re: The Mountie 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
    Re: Independent Limitation 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:53:58 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: AP/Penetrating question 
From: Geoff Depew <mephron@idt.net> 
>General question for the list: 
>Can you stack AP and Penetrating?  As in, can you buy an AP Penetrating EB? 
>There's nothing that says you CAN'T... but it would appear hideously 
>twinktastic on the face of it. 
I don't recall if this is in 4th or not, but at one time, the only effect of 
AP Penetrating was to make Penetrating ignore Hardening. That's how would 
Well, since I cannot remember the exact rule for 4th Ed., I suppose it _is_ 
an opinion. Or maybe it is a guess. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:07:28 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: AP/Penetrating question 
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Geoff Depew wrote: 
> Can you stack AP and Penetrating?  As in, can you buy an AP Penetrating EB? 
> There's nothing that says you CAN'T... but it would appear hideously 
> twinktastic on the face of it. 
Yes, but I think one level of Hardening stops the whole mess (but, I may 
be wrong). 
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com  
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion   
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:15:26 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Thank you. I figured that it would be true. Nobody _would_ expect the 
Spanish Inquisition. 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 3:13 PM 
>*bows* The perfect response *L* 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 7:22 AM 
>>From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> 
>>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
>>>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>>>Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 9:32 AM 
>>>>From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> 
>>>>>Definitely use a Zeppelin, but: Don't fill the Zeppelin with 
>>>>>hydrogen, use helium, sure its more expensive, but its worth it. 
>>>>>Remember: good zeppelins have compartmentalized envelopes and 
>>>>>can't be "popped" with one shot. Also the Nazis will have a supply 
>>>>>of patch kits. 
>>>>Alternately, _do_ fill it with hydrogen. Have it blow up. Have the 
>>>>cheer. Then, when they turn around, they discover the SS, weapons 
>>>>grinning at them. 
>>>and then the french resistance turns up. 
>>Followed by the Spanish Inquisition. 
>>"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:34:09 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>   The larger an Independent item is, the less likely I am to take it away 
>on a truly permanent basis. 
But you admit to being willing to if it happens logically during the game, 
even on an outside chance. That's good enough. 
>   On the other hand, the larger an Independent item is, the more crippling 
>it is to do without for four months. 
>   Bowl of Daily Cereal?  No problem.  Ring of Invisibility?  A problem, 
>but not a major one.  Suit of powered armor?  You might as well retire. 
I agree with that completely. 
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:28:00 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: AP/Penetrating question 
At 08:38 PM 12/4/98 -0500, Geoff Depew wrote: 
>General question for the list: 
>Can you stack AP and Penetrating?  As in, can you buy an AP Penetrating EB? 
>There's nothing that says you CAN'T... but it would appear hideously 
>twinktastic on the face of it. 
I disagree.  Consider a campaign with a 60 active point limit. 
Captain Energy buys a 8d6 penetrating Energy Blast, while Wildman  
buys a 6d6 Armor Piercing Penetrating EB.  Both cost 60 AP. 
Captain Energy fires his blast at Dr. Density, who has a 20 rED  
defense.  On average, Cap will do 28 stun and 8 body.  Dr. Density 
will take 8 stun from the blast and 8 from the penetration, for a total  
of 16 stun. On his best day, Cap rolls straight 6's and does  
48 stun and 16 body. Doc takes 28 stun from the blast and 12 from the  
penetration for a total of 40 stun. 
Now, on another day, Wildman attacks Dr. Density.  On average, 
he will roll 21 stun and 6 body, and apply that against only 10 rED. 
Doc will take 11 stun from the basic blast, and 6 stun form the  
penetration for a total of 17 stun.  Not too different from Captain Energy. 
On -his- best day, Wildman rolls straight 6's and does 36 stun and 12  
body.  Doc takes 26 stun and 2 body from the blast and 12 stun from 
the penetration, for a total of 38 stun and 2 body.  Again, not 
wildly different from Captain Energy's attack. 
Consider Hero Guy, who just has a 12d6 attack.  On average, 
his attack on Doc (poor Doc!) will result in Doc taking 22 stun. 
Hero Guy's best attack will result in Doc taking 52 stun and 4 
The point is that these "advantages" are not only -not- imbalancing, 
they're often -less- effective than the unadvantaged naked attack.   
"Posterity shall triumph in this day's business, 
even though we may regret it.  I trust we shall not." 
        John Adams. 2 July 1776 
Scott C. Nolan 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:52:59 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: AP/Penetrating question 
>Can you stack AP and Penetrating?  As in, can you buy an AP Penetrating EB? 
>There's nothing that says you CAN'T... but it would appear hideously 
>twinktastic on the face of it. 
In fact, if memory serves there is something that says you can. I'm not sure 
where it is, but if it an AP Penetrating EB, the Penetrating effect will not 
be stopped by a level of Hardening (the AP will). Two levels will stop it, 
though. If there is no hardening, you'd probably take the worst form of 
damage: against half defense or some of it gets through. 
I hope that last part made sense... 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:51:43 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
> Thank you. I figured that it would be true. Nobody _would_ expect the 
> Spanish Inquisition. 
	Well I didn't expect some sort of inquisition... 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:15:02 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: some dumb questions for the list.  
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>At 06:30 PM 12/4/98 +1000, Lockie wrote: 
>    I'm pulling together a character, and a have a few questions: 
>I, on the other hand, am pulling together an increasing dislike for 
Microsoft Outlook Express and its itty-bitty text output that I can't read 
on my 14" mionitor using Eudora Pro. 
Well, first go to the menu, select Tools>Options, then Send. Set your output 
to text only, for those people who can't read HTML on their browsers. Also 
uncheck "Reply to messages in the format in which they are sent". 
Click Apply. Now select the Read tab. Click on the Fonts button, then select 
a Font you can see clearly. 
Then, if you ever have a problem, click View, select Fonts, and set it to 
Larger or Largest. 
>    >>>> 
>    *if one was trying to blanket a whole planet in AE hexes, would 
>    be aplicable sor covering the surface, or should 'AE-any' be used, to 
depict the complex and varied nature of a planets surface, underworld, ect? 
In all cases, what's the circumference of the earth in hexes? (hey my atlas 
is upstairs, ok?) 
>For Hero4, use enough Radius to cover the surface area. 
>According to my Britannica, the Earth has a surface area of 509,600,000 
square kilometers. If I'm doing my figures right (and I'm sure someone will 
jump in and correct me if I'm not), a square kilometer comes up to 192,450 
hexes, which means a total of just over 98 trillion hexes (that's a US 
trillion -- 10^12). So you'd need a Radius of about 99 million inches. 
Depends upon a number of factors, but isn't anywhere near this big. The 
circumference of the Earth is about  24,000 miles, which is roughly 
19,000,000 inches. Since the radius of the AE:Radius only needs to be half 
of this (since the outer edges of your AE would meet on the far side of the 
world), you only need about 9,5000,000 inches in radius. 
If you went solely by the size of the area of the surface, which is slightly 
different (since the Earth is not a disk), you'd only need about 7,200,000 
(since this number of inches, converted to KM, times 2 times pi gives 
651,000,000 square kilometers. This might be necessary for GMs who insist 
that radius is a disk, and thus does not follow the surface of the Earth, 
thus requiring a player to buy AE: Any. 
>    *what happens to the points from a drain or transfer in the long term? 
if such a power is bought with scads (and i mean SCADS) of moves down the 
time chart, should the point still be reasonably use-able, for instance once 
the victim has dies and turned to dust? 
>To my mind, if a Transfer has a return rate that long, and the target dies 
before getting all of the points back, then the points still return at the 
normal rate. They just return to a corpse, and can't be taken again. (In 
other words, it's treated something like the return rate of an Aid.) 
Agreed. Why would the points leave faster if the victim died? Was he 
plugging the leak with his body?:) 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:03:02 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: some dumb questions for the list. 
>      Pine, hell, if you're gonna be a *real* man, why not use mail? :-). 
	Er, no thanks.  Been there, done that.	 
>      (Actually, I use elm, I find the interface "cleaner" than pine's 
> and very easy to use; though I could wish for reverse searches and 
> better multiple mailbox management) 
	Ug, elm?  Nah, because Pine Is Not Elm.  : ) 
>      "Mail is barbaric." - The guy who introduced me to Elm and later 
> became my boss at my *second* computer job (working at a college 
> computer lab for the CS department - my *first* computer job I got in 
> part because at the job interview I noticed the interviewer using mail 
> and I taught her how to use elm :-). 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:00:57 EST 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
>Here's another puzzler: I need to be able to capture a player character 
>without hurting him.  He's too strong just to be jumped by goons, and 
>a savvy-enough hunter that he could probably see any snares I set for 
>Any neat tricks or favorite tactics come to mind? The campaign is a pulp 
>type adventure, set in 1936.  The villains are Nazis. 
Let's see ... 
1)  Hire a few goons who don't know how tough this guy is, and tell them 
to capture him.  Have a couple Nazis in stolen police uniforms nearby.  
Hero pounds thugs into pavement, "police officers" ask him to help them 
get the thugs to the station (very few police cars in this era had 
two-way radios, so it should sound plausible).  Once everyone is in the 
car, the hero is distracted just long enough for the driver to pull on a 
gas mask, then the car is flooded with knockout gas.  Yeah, it'll put the 
other Nazi out cold too, but if the hero is off in la-la land you won't 
need a guard, and I don't think you could distract the hero long enough 
for everyone to grab a mask. 
Variant on this:  Hero rescues beautiful young woman (female Nazi agent) 
who was "accosted by ruffians". 
2)  This one only works if the hero is well-known:  Hero gets call from 
local newspaper, which wants to do a special article on him (or the last 
big adventure he had).  Unfortunately, the call is really from Nazi HQ, 
and the person who shows up for the interview is an agent, not a 
reporter.  Depending on where they meet, the agent can go the Mickey Finn 
route or simply take the hero's secretary hostage. 
3)  Sammy the Sneak, noted stool pigeon, gets word to the hero that 
someone is asking a lot of questions about the hero's schedule, family, 
friends, etc.  For enough money, Sammy will meet the hero at <fill in 
time and place> with names or descriptions of the people after him.  It's 
up to you whether Sammy was actually working for the Nazis, or if they 
leaked information to him knowing he would blab -- either way, the hero 
is met by many more Nazis than he has a chance to overpower. 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:31:55 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>   Technically speaking, the difference is that the *points* from the 
>Independent item can be lost.  With just plain Focus, the points aren't 
>tied up in the Power itself; if it's lost, the points can be re-spent.  You 
>even give an example yourself in the paragraph above of how a character 
>sans his non-Indepedent Focus can use his points to jury-rig something in 
>the villain's lab.  If it's Independent, then he can't do that. 
That's actually the point of that statement: not having it be Independent 
gives more flexibility to the GM to allow such things, but it doesn't have 
to be Independent to have an adventure where the character needs to get the 
item or power back. The points are in all cases other than Independent 
re-spent only when it is appropriate, which depends on numerous factors, and 
can include the idea of jury-rigging equipment. With Independent, once it is 
gone, it is gone. This is a point we have no argument about. The question 
was: if Independent is never taken away, is it worth a limitation? 
The question is now: If Independent is never taken away permanently, CAN it 
be worth a limitation? I must answer that with a yes. There are, indeed, 
ways for it to be. You could lose it for a LONG time not too long after the 
game starts (varies), and get it back later (If a game goes on long enough, 
and you have a chance to get it back, you will someday :). You could be so 
protective of it that it is not often used. Or you could just lose it 
permanently, the most obvious result but not the only one. The limitation is 
also useful for a variety of permanent effects. Yes, I've moderated my 
opinion, you've won already. Well, to some extent: I still believe that the 
willingness both to lose it and to take it away still have to be there, or 
it is not worth the limitation. You have to be willing to lose it, or I 
won't let you have it. I have to be willing to take it away, or, again, I 
can't let you have it. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:04:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca> 
Subject: The Mountie 
Here is the character sheet for the Mountie, leader of the Canadian Shield 
West team. 
Val     Char    Cost    100+    Disadvantages 
18      STR     8       3       PACKAGE BONUS: RCMP 
20      DEX     30      15      PSYCH LIM: Obeys orders from superiors 
28      CON     36      15      PSYCH LIM: Very Patriotic 
12      BODY    4       20      PSYCH LIM: Protects Innocents 
15      INT     5       15      WATCHED: Canadian Government (Mo Pow, NCI, 14-) 
18      EGO     16      15      WATCHED: RCMP (Mo Pow, NCI, 14-) 
25      PRE     15      15      HUNTED: Purifier (As Pow, 11-) 
14      COM     2       10      DIST. FEATURES: Mountie (E Con, Always) 
10      PD      6       10      STYLE DISADVANTAGE: Police Training 
10      ED      4       20      REPUTATION: Patriotic Hero (14-, Ext) 
5       SPD     20      15      SECRET ID: Kevin MacDonald 
11      REC     2       140     EXPERIENCE BONUS 
70      END     7 
40      STUN    5 
Pts     Powers/Skills/Talents/Perks                          END/Roll 
62      Multipower (62 pt. pool) 
6u      25 PD/25 ED Force Field, 1/2 END                        2 
6u      10 PD/10 ED 10" Force Wall, 1/2 END                     2 
6u      10d6 Physical EB, 1/2 END                               2 
6u      6d6 Entangle                                            6 
6u      40 STR Telekinesis                                      6 
24      POLICE TRAINING OCV     DCV     Damage/Effect 
        Throw           +0      +1      5.5d6+v/5, Target Falls 
        Cross           +0      +2      7.5d6 Strike 
        Choke           -2      +0      Grab, 3d6 NND (LS: No Breathing) 
        Disarm          -1      +1      38 STR Disarm 
        Chop            -2      +0      1d6 HKA (2d6 w/STR) 
        Block           +2      +2      Block, Abort 
8       +2 DC w/Police Training 
7       1d6+1 RKA, -2 RMod, 6 Charges, +1 to PER rolls against, OAF - Police Gun 
8       +4d6 HA, linked to 1st Multipower slot 
5       +10 PRE, Defensive Only (-1) 
3       Breakfall                                               13- 
3       Bureaucratics                                           14- 
4       CK: Edmonton                                            13- 
3       CK: Toronto                                             12- 
1       CK: Vancouver                                           8- 
3       Combat Driving                                          13- 
3       Criminology                                             12- 
3       Deduction                                               12- 
3       Interrogation                                           14- 
4       KS: Canadian Federal Criminal Law and Procedures        13- 
4       PS: RCMP Officer                                        13- 
5       Shadowing                                               12- 
3       Stealth                                                 13- 
3       Streetwise                                              13- 
3       Systems Operation                                       12- 
2       WF: Small Arms 
24      +3 Combat Levels 
3       Federal Police Powers 
2       Weapon Permit 
3       Well-Connected 
7       Contacts: Prime Minister                                11- 
                  Premier of British Columbia                   11- 
                  Premier of Ontario                            11- 
                  Superintendent of RCMP                        13- 
                  Seattle PRIMUS Base                           11- 
OCV: 7+ DCV: 7+ ECV: 6  Phases: 3,5,8,10,12 
160       233        393      100       293 
NAME: Kevin MacDonald, RCMP Officer 
PERSONAL DETAILS: Born: Sept 27, 1970.  Height: 5'11".  Weight: 80 kg. 
Hair: Brown, Straight.  Eyes: Brown 
BACKGROUND: Kevin MacDonald is from a family of RCMP officers.  His father, 
mother, uncle, grandfather, and great-grandfather were al members of the 
force, and Kevin knew from the time he was very young that he would follow 
in their footsteps.  They encouraged this by teaching him about his country 
and its rich history.  He grew up proud to be Canadian, eager to do his part 
to protect and serve it. 
        When he was fifteen, however, his body underwent a sudden and 
dramatic change; while playing out in the yard, climbing the family's great 
tree, he fell hard.  He hit the ground and was momentarily stunned, but 
surprisingly uninjured.  Mroe examples of his seeming invulnerability sprang 
up over time. 
        Kevin chose not to reveal this to anyone, even his parents.  He knew 
perfectly well about all the 'superheroes' who wore flashy costumes and 
sought the glare of a public spotlight.  That wasn't what being an RCMP 
officer was about, as he well knew.  Instead he concentrated on his studies. 
He studied law and policework, and had the finest teachers he could ask for: 
his family.  He read hundreds of cases dating back to the origins of the 
force, and learned a few self-defense moves from his uncle.  When he was old 
enough, he immediately applied for admittance to the RCMP Academy, and was 
eagerly accepted.  He passed his course with flying colors, finishing third 
in his class.  He was assigned to his home city of Edmonton, and did his 
duty well.  He never used his gun, although he did draw it on two occasions 
when necessary.  When the Canadian Shield organization was formed, Kevin was 
approached by a recruiter seeking the best and the brightest to serve as 
agents.  Kevin politely declined; he was a Mountie, and always would be. 
        Then came the infamous Mayhem in Edmonton.  VIPER decided to avenge 
some humiliating defeats by the Canadian Shield.  They captured Grond, 
tormented him (not too much), then dropped him from four thousand feet above 
Edmonton.  He created a large crater where he landed, then attempted to make 
matching holes all over Edmonton. 
        The local RCMP were immediately mobilized in force, as were the 
closest Canadian Shield agents, in Calgary.  By the time the latter arrived, 
the RCMP detachment were in way over their heads.  Kevin was right in the 
thick of it, pulling innocent bystanders away from the rampaging monster. 
As he dragged an elderly man from his damaged car, Grond picked up the car 
and smashed it down on Kevin. 
        Kevin reeled, but was amazed at the fact he and the old man had 
survived.  In fact, Kevin was only slightly injured.  He quickly recovered, 
and got the injured man to safety.  Without a second's hesitation, he went 
right back into the middle of the disaster, still helping pull the injured 
out of further harm's way. 
        There was another person helping the people Kevin was pulling out: 
the mutant hero Lifeline.  He was as amazed as Kevin when Grond had failed 
to crush him like a walnut with the car.  When Grond finally got bored and 
went to the far north, Lifeline approached Kevin and congratulated him on 
his efforts. 
        "I can't think of many people who could have survived that war 
zone," he said.  "You have got to be the luckiest person I've ever known." 
        Lifeline said nothing more, for they were surrounded by medical 
staff and volunteers.  Kevin was approached by the Canadian Shield 
commander, Captain Forsythe. Forsythe looked him over, and bluntly asked how 
he was still alive. 
        Kevin shrugged.  "I've always been tough to hurt," he admitted. 
"But I didn't think I was that tough." 
        Forsythe 'suggested' he be tested at Canadian Shield headquarters in 
Ottawa.  The scientists poked and prodded, scanned and analyzed, taking what 
seemed like eons to determine the truth.  Kevin was a mutant with the power 
to project fields of force to protect himself and others.  The government 
offered to help him develop his powers more fully, but Kevin hesitated; he 
didn't want to be considered a freak, nor did he want to leave his city, 
especially after the Grond incident. 
        However, the head scientist handed his report directly to Prime 
Minister Mulroney, who personally asked Kevin to reconsider.  He explained 
to Kevin about the plans for a paranormal team to work along with the 
Canadian Shield agents, and wanted Kevin to lead that team.  How could Kevin 
        Kevin, now known simply as the Mountie, was transferred to Toronto 
and began recruiting the original members of the Canadian Shield.  He has 
served with distinction since the team's inception, although for a time he 
was replaced by another RCMP officer when his father died.  His replacement 
used technology to duplicate Kevin's powers, and few people in the media 
noticed the difference.  The rest of the team kept silent, preserving the 
        When the team split, Kevin asked to lead the western team to bring 
him closer to home.  Now based in Vancouver, the Mountie has continued to 
provide leadership to the team, and is the most popular west coast member. 
QUOTE: "You're under arrest; I don't recommend you resist." 
PERSONALITY: Kevin MacDonald is about as Canadian a person as one could 
find, if one could actually find such a person.  He believes wholehearedly 
in the Canadian values of peace, order, and good government.  He holds the 
American ideals of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' in 
contempt, seeing them as wasteful and far too disorderly to be of any use. 
        When in civilian attire, Kevin is a friendly person who makes 
friends rather easily.  In uniform, the Mountie is a stern, forthright 
police officer who commands respect and attention.  Despite his current 
posting as a superhero, Kevin considers himself an RCMP officer through and 
through.  This mentality differentiates him from other heroes and teammates. 
He is the only member of either team to have official police powers, and 
does not fear to use his gun if the need should arise.  Of course, his 
mutant powers tend to make the gun more of an accessory than a weapon, but 
he carries it as part of his uniform. 
        From his earliest childhood, Kevin was taught that the RCMP was more 
than just a group of individual officers; it was the force as a whole that 
was important, not any single officer.  Kevin wears a mask for two reasons. 
First, he wants to protect his family, as any superhero would.  Second, he 
stresses that he merely represents the whole RCMP force, and that he can be 
replaced if he should be unable to continue.  He doesn't mention that this 
has happened once already. 
        Kevin is comfortable with the bureaucracy, having dealt with it long 
enough in Edmonton.  Still, he sometimes chafes at the often huge amount of 
red tape the government piles before him.  As a federal officer, he has no 
ties to the British Columbia government, nor did he have any with Ontario's 
government while he was stationed there.  He has made a point to get to know 
the Premiers, however; he had a good working relationship with both Ontario 
premiers, but has yet to establish the same rapport in BC. 
POWERS/TACTICS: The Mountie is a mutant with the ability to project force 
fields.  He can extend this protection to others, although the field is not 
as strong.  He has also learned how to project it as an attack, and more 
recently discovered some further uses (Entangle, Telekinesis).  He is a 
well-trained officer of the law, with martial arts and weapons training.  He 
carries a gun as a licensed officer, but rarely uses it, since most 
supervillains aren't impressed by police guns anyway. 
        He is a good detective, and not easily startled.  He will seek to 
avoid combat, especially in crowd conditions. Often, his investigative 
ability will negate the need for combat.  Because of his police training, he 
will, if necessary, use extreme force to protect innocents.  He has no 
qualms about killing if necessary, but will only do so with extreme 
provocation and danger to innocents.  He has never taken a life. 
        As a tactician, the Mountie primarily activates his force field 
first, then takes on whatever opponent is most easily available.  He will 
avoid bricks, but not martial artists; his relative weakness in combat is 
offset by his high defenses, and he has other options with which to surprise 
an opponent such as his EB or Entangle.  However, if innocents are 
endangered, he will forego combat to protect them, extending his shield 
around them. 
APPEARANCE: The Mountie dresses in the traditional formal uniform of the 
Royal Canadian Mounted Police, with the red coat, black pants, hat, etc.  He 
carries a police-issue gun at his belt, and wears a half face-mask to 
conceal his identity.  Out of uniform, he dreses in casual yet stylish 
clothing.  He is tall, ruggedly handsome, and in excellent shape.  He works 
hard to keep up his build. 
Constructive criticism will be appreciated, flames will be snuffed. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:44:53 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>   Whatever Gold K is for the Silver Age Supes, it was *not* a 
>Psychological Limitation.  If he had to take special steps to avoid its 
>effects, then he was still subject to those effects and is affected by its 
>presence even if he never lost his powers because of exposure to it.  It 
>may have been a Susceptibility for Kryptonians, or a free-floating Power on 
>its own, or something else, but its effects were as real as bullets are for 
>anyone else. 
I was saying that if the effect is never going to happen in the game, it is 
not appropriate for it to be worth a Limitation on all the powers Supes has, 
no matter how crippling it is. Maybe it's a Phys Lim, or a Susc, or 
something else, but it is not worth the points saved by the Limitation. If 
the only effect is to modify his behavior, and the GM never plans to really 
use it, a Psych Lim seemed appropriate, because that's the real effect in 
game terms. Anyway, though... 
>   Well, isn't that basically what we were talking about?  The character 
>either loses it and then gets it back after a reasonable period of time 
>(the more vital the item is to the character, the shorter this time needs 
>to be for its absence to be effective), or he goes to such great lengths to 
>avoid losing it that he ends up being nearly as crippled. 
That's exactly what you were talking about. I even used someone else's 
example of locking it up in the safe 90% of the time to punctuate the fact 
that it's what you were talking about. I've moderated my opinion, changed my 
mind. I think you need to be willing to lose/take away the Independent power 
permanently, but I no longer think that actually doing it is absolutely 
necessary to get the limitation value. Only the willingness to, and the 
occasional real long term theft, are necessary. But you must be willing to 
be ruthless, and criple the character who put all his points into it, if it 
is logical to be. 4 months is good, though. You've all changed my mind, been 
saying so since last night. Just not so far that I don't think you need to 
have that real danger there. 
>   Going around to the magnetic field example from earlier in the 
>discussion, "Power doesn't work in magnetic field" is functionally the same 
>as "Must avoid magnetic field or loses Power." 
>   If a character takes extra steps to avoid the effects of a Limitation or 
>Disadvantage, then that Limitation or Disadvantage is still affecting the 
>character.  True, the specifics of the effect is different from what's 
>written; but still, if the character lets his guard down for long enough, 
>the written effect will take place. 
Yes, indeed. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:45:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> Thank you. I figured that it would be true. Nobody _would_ expect the 
> Spanish Inquisition. 
That's because our main weapon is suprise and fear! 
 Our two, two main weapons are suprise, fear and a total devotion to the 
Out three main weapons are surpise, fear, total devotion to the pope and 
ruthless efficency! 
Damn it... 
Among our weapons are suprise, fear, a total devotion to the pope, 
ruthless efficency and... nice red uniforms! 
Look, can I just come in again? 
Cardinal Fang!  The Comfy Chair!!! 
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com  
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion   
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:11:37 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: AP/Penetrating question 
>Captain Energy fires his blast at Dr. Density, who has a 20 rED  
>defense.  On average, Cap will do 28 stun and 8 body.  Dr. Density 
>will take 8 stun from the blast and 8 from the penetration, for a total  
>of 16 stun. 
Umm.  Penetration only creates a _minimum_ STUN amount, not an 
_additional_ STUN amount... 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:39:05 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: The Mountie 
I just want to point out that, since you called him Kevin MacDonald, I 
keep thinking of the Kids in the Hall member, best known for The Buddy 
Holly Sketch ("There are kids out in, I dunno, Liverpool right now being 
influenced by MY music!  That's why I'm flying in a plane!") and as Sir 
Simon Milligan..... 
"'Remember, Boo-Boo...we only have one weakness." 
"What's that, Rat Fink?" 
     --Rat Fink and Boo-Boo, RAT FINK A BOO BOO 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
An except from the new story "My Worst Break Up" can now be found at 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:33:15 -0600 
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 1:12 PM 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>I think that GMs should carefully consider his policy on Independent and 
>inform his players what it will be.  If he's NOT willing to take something 
>away from the characters permanently, then he should disallow Independent. 
>If he decides to allow it into the game, he should make sure SOME 
>independent item gets taken away, even if the belong to PCs. Perhaps he 
>could let an NPC have such an item, then take it away, to give the PCs an 
>idea of what they're getting into. 
Do you mean willing 'to make it happen' or willing 'to let it happen?' 
If you mean 'to let it happen,' I agree with the rest of your post.  Except 
the suggestition concerning taking away such an item from a PC as a lesson. 
The NPC idea would be okay, though. 
GMs rule a game but the game belongs to everyone and should be fairer than 
that, this is only my opinion, of course. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:31:52 -0600 
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net> 
To: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com> 
Cc: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 5:57 AM 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>And the fact that Superman avoided being exposed to its energies and 
>being stripped of its powers made it a boogeyman..... 
You say that like it is a bad thing.  Boogeymen are some of the most 
fearsome creatures in the nine planes.  Their breath alone is enough to 
cause a need for a saving throw at -4 versus 
Runandjumpscreamandlandinmamasbed.  Their teeth are large enough to cut you 
in half, nay fourths.  The only possible way to survive a Boogeyman attack 
is to stay very still under the covers so that the Boogeyman believe you 
have died of fright, as many victims do or seek shelter in your parents room 
until daylight. I promise you that if you had a Boogeyman after you I would 
be getting ready to console the bereaved widow. :-) 
I for one believed that every time Gold Kryptonite was in a story that he 
was in real danger.  I was both young and gullible, but I believed it 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:34:10 -0600 
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 10:41 AM 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>> Unbreakable Foci, not only can be gotten back, they will be.  If not a 
>> similar item will be made accessible, as per description of Unbreakable 
>> Foci.  You can play it different but that is modifying/making a house 
>And if you always get the Independent item back, it is the same thing. 
>If you can rely on getting it back, you don't modify your behavior. 
>That's what it sounds like people are describing: purposely avoiding, as 
>a GM (not talking about player precautions), taking the item away 
>permanently. Therefore, it would be worth no additional limitation. If 
>you always get it back, it is Unbreakable, not Independent. This has the 
>side benefit of letting you re-spend the points if ever you DON'T get it 
>back. But not immediately. 
Your players can only rely on getting it back if you tell them they will. 
If you tell them they will or don't make them believe they won't necessarily 
be able to ever get it back you are not doing your job as GM.  Other than 
that I agree with you. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:31:41 -0600 
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>And in a game, they might not of worked.  If they didn't, you'd be stuck 
>with either actually stripping him of his powers, or showing the player it 
>was a boogeyman. 
I don't see where this is a problem if you don't want the possibility don't 
let them take Independent.  If you are going to force the loss don't let 
them take Independent.  Simply hit them over the head with a rubber bat.  It 
would hurt less.  Only let them take Independent if you are going to play it 
fair.  What happens, happens.  Whatever will be, will be. 
>The fact something works in a sourcework does _not_ mean it necessarily 
>works well in a game.  In a comic there's usually one writer and they'll 
>ignore the fact that a character crippling problem isn't real and act like 
>it is.  Assuming a player will do this makes sets of assumptions that 
>in fact, make the cost breaks on power inherent in Limitations unnecessary 
>in the first place. 
Of course not.  You seem to be working under the assumption that Independent 
powers must be taken away or the limitation is bogus.  Some on this list 
feel that way but I don't. 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:33:27 -0600 
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 10:44 AM 
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation 
>> Gold Kryptonite was used against Superman several times.  He didn't take 
>> actions which would have exposed him to its effects.  In other words, he 
>> altered his normal actions to prevent himself from being exposed and 
>> stripped of his powers. 
>Then it's a Psych Lim, not a limitation on the powers or other disad. If 
>it is never going to really be used, and he just avoids it, it is not 
>worth the limitation on all of his powers. It might be another type of 
>Disad, though. Same thing with Independent: if you want the character to 
>behave a certain way, but are never going to lose the Focus, or if the 
>GM doesn't want to really have the chance of you losing it, take a Psych 
>Lim, not Independent. 
Makes more sense to me to base the amount of points saved on the amount of 
points that could be lost.  Any Disad is going to be a fixed amount of 
points that have no relation to the number of points in the powers. 
>That said, I can see it if you will be without it a lot of the time: it 
>is locked up in a safe 90% of the time, or it is taken from you and you 
>go on a year-long quest to get it back. Then it's worth a -2. But if you 
>get it back quickly, within a few games, it is not (unless you also lose 
>it very frequently). 
There is more to Independent than 'you will eventually lose the use of this 
power.'  I can't say it any better than I already have. 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #71 

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