Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 77

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:38 AM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #77 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Monday, December 7 1998        Volume 01 : Number 077 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Character Comparisons 
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Take a look at these power concepts.  
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
    Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
    Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:54:36 -0600 
From: "Burleson's" <burleson@genesisnet.net> 
Subject: Re: Character Comparisons 
 
> I'm looking for a good method of ranking characters in overall power and 
> effectiveness in combat.  I have seen some on the net and am having 
trouble 
> finding them again.  If anyone has some could you please send me the URL 
or 
> the formulae either off list or on if you feel anyone else would be 
> interested.   
 
There was a formula in one issue of AC but it is extremely old. I would be 
interested in an updated one. 
 
And if anyone knows how I can save Creator characters to disk I would 
appreciate that info as well. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:58:22 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
> So tell the player that either he comes up with a decent origin 
> explaining how his character aquired his powers, or you'll assume he's 
> a mutant, with whatever that means to your game world. 
 
I wouldn't necessarily go that far: if the player doesn't want to tell 
you his origin (or doesn't have one in mind), but insists he's not a 
mutant, he could be something else. But then, it's completely up to you. 
If anything else in your game allows him to just "suddenly have powers" 
for no known reason, use that. Maybe the real, normal person was 
replaced one day by a super-powered android that lost his memory and 
thinks it's him. Or he was abducted by aliens, given superpowers, and 
then mind-wiped. And so on. 
 
Of course, he should be made aware that if he doesn't come up with an 
explanation, you will, and he may not like it. Oh, well: it's his own 
fault. 
 
Also of course, if mutant is what fits the game, mutant it is. Oh, 
well... 
 
JAJ, GP 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:08:54 +1000 
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> 
Subject: Take a look at these power concepts.  
 
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 
 
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Here are a few power concepts a player of mine came up with. . . what do = 
you think of them? 
 
1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 pt pool, all = 
apparently 'vampire powers' 
(including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly half with ultra = 
slots.=20 
 
2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically intended (according = 
to the player) to purchase 
'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as possible (this for = 
a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed to an = 
infinite-man or any sfx which would reasonably explain it, as far as i = 
could tell) 
 
3: A character with an 8d6 hka and a 12 spd who only had 12 def, in a = 
relativly standard superheroic campaign- at this juncture the player = 
stated that if his character was badly injured or died, it would have = 
more to do with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.  All = 
of the characters powers were brought with various foci.=20 
 
Upon stating over the months in turn that each of these power constructs = 
were invalid,=20 
the player has insisted that I was the one comitting a protocol = 
transgression, despite my=20 
specifically stating in advance that I reserved the right to reject any = 
power concept on inspection.=20 
In each case the player neglected to reveal the construct in question = 
until the last=20 
possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent = 
working on the=20 
powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my = 
objections.  No=20 
other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this or = 
any other game.=20 
Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power = 
constructs as=20 
far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. = 
Also, what type=20 
of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any = 
sort=20 
of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused.=20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Enslave humanity willya?" 
 
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<HTML> 
<HEAD> 
 
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = 
http-equiv=3DContent-Type> 
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>Here are a few power concepts = 
a player of=20 
mine came up with. . . what do you think of them?</FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 = 
pt pool,=20 
all apparently 'vampire powers'</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>(including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly = 
half=20 
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>with ultra slots. </FONT></DIV> 
 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically = 
intended=20 
(according to the player) to purchase</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as = 
possible=20 
(this for a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed = 
to an=20 
infinite-man or any sfx which would </FONT><FONT size=3D3>reasonably = 
explain it,=20 
as far as i could tell)</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>3: A character with an 8d6 hka = 
and a 12=20 
spd </FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>who only had 12 = 
def, in a=20 
relativly standard superheroic campaign- <FONT size=3D3></FONT>at this = 
juncture=20 
the player stated that if his character was badly injured or died, it = 
would have=20 
more to do with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.&nbsp; = 
All of=20 
the characters powers were brought with various foci. = 
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Upon stating over the months in turn that each of = 
these power=20 
constructs were invalid, </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>the player has insisted that I was the one comitting = 
a=20 
protocol transgression, despite my </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>specifically stating in advance that I reserved the = 
right to=20 
reject any power concept on inspection. </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>In each case the player neglected to reveal = 
the=20 
construct in question until the last </DIV> 
<DIV>possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent = 
working=20 
on the </DIV> 
<DIV>powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my=20 
objections.&nbsp; No </DIV> 
<DIV>other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this = 
or any=20 
other game. </DIV> 
<DIV>Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these = 
power=20 
constructs as </DIV> 
<DIV>far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic = 
setting.=20 
Also, what type </DIV> 
<DIV>of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I = 
welcome any=20 
sort </DIV> 
<DIV>of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused. = 
</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&quot;Enslave humanity=20 
willya?&quot;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:59:28 -0800 
From: "Eric Wylie" <erk@halcyon.com> 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
This brings up more questions.  Is there really a difference between an 
individual born with a genetic mutation and an individual falling into the 
"vat of radioactive sludge?"  I'm not seeing much of a difference here. 
 
If superman were subjected to something more than a superficial medical 
exam, would he appear to have genetic mutations when compared to a norm? 
Would it be logical to presume that most aliens, while human in appearance, 
would appear quite different in a medical examination? 
 
(Sory folks, I come from a comic deficient childhood.  I'm not familiar with 
comic heroes outside the most popular.) 
 
Regards, 
Eric. 
 
 
 
 
>At 05:47 PM 12/7/98 -0800, Eric Wylie wrote: 
>> 
>> I'd like to hear how many of you define a mutant in your Champions 
>> campaigns. At what point does a norm become a mutant? 
> 
> 
> 
>Well, hopefully a biologist can check in on this, but for now, maybe this 
>will do.  A mutant is a creature whose DNA has been changed in some manner. 
>Mutations actually occur periodically in any species, which is the basis 
>of the whole Darwin thing.  The mutation can be as subtle as a slightly 
>elongated ear, or as dramatic as an extra limb. 
> 
>If the character in question receives his powers as the result of a 
>change to his DNA, then he's a mutant.  (Though what a "mutant detector" 
>might be, I can't guess.)  Spiderman often swears that he is not a mutant, 
>but in fact, I think he is. 
> 
>Just having high stats may not be a sign of a mutation.  However, if not, 
>then the power comes from some outside source (like Superman and the yellow 
>sun -- bad example maybe, because he's an alien) or a focus (Iron Man) or 
>a spell (Capt. Marvel). 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> In addition, if a character is a mutant in some way, have you ever let a 
>> character have a perk of 'does not show up on mutant detectors.' If so, 
how 
>> many points would this cost? 
> 
> 
> 
>I wouldn't call that a perk.  You first have to figure out what this 
>detector is actually detecting.  If it doesn't detect what he is, then 
>he just doesn't show up. 
> 
> 
> 
>======================  ================================================= 
>Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed 
>Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is 
>(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
>======================  ================================================= 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:04:38 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
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If the character has no 'white event' (i.e. a trigger that gives him his 
power--the exposure to the weird rock, the magical being granting him 
abilities far and above, the radiation explosion), and develops his 
powers out of the blue one day, chances are that person is a mutant-- 
 
EXCEPT if there is a (GM determined) cause for his powers that he's 
unaware of.  One of my PBeM characters just developed his powers one 
day--but I gave my GM fiat to explain how he got those powers in the 
future.  Risky, sure, but fun. 
 
"'You mean something ripped him open and ate out his insides?" 
 
"Like an Oreo cookie...except, you know, without the chocolate-y cookie 
goodness." 
     --Buffy and Willow, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "My Worst Break Up" can now be found at 
MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
 
 
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Message-ID: <002f01be224c$a72f33e0$052b3fce@login.halcyon.com> 
From: "Eric Wylie" <erk@halcyon.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: How do you define 'mutant' 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:47:01 -0800 
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I'd like to hear how many of you define a mutant in your Champions = 
campaigns.  At what point does a norm become a mutant?  I have a player = 
who insists his character is not a mutant and I don't agree.  The = 
character in question is a mini-superman; flight, super strength, speed, = 
n-ray, etc... The character is not an alien.  The (limited) background = 
given is that he is a longshoreman that gained super powers one day.  I = 
cannot get the player to explain this 'defining moment.'  The way I see = 
it, if the character exceeds NHCM and/or can fly, see through buildings, = 
etc..., he has mutated beyond an ordinary person as is a mutant.  Do = 
agree/disagree? 
 
In addition, if a character is a mutant in some way, have you ever let a = 
character have a perk of 'does not show up on mutant detectors.'  If so, = 
how many points would this cost? 
 
Regards, 
Eric 
 
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'd like to hear how many of you = 
define a mutant=20 
in your Champions campaigns.&nbsp; At what point does a norm become a=20 
mutant?&nbsp; I have a player who insists his character is not a mutant = 
and I=20 
don't agree.&nbsp; The character in question is a mini-superman; flight, = 
super=20 
strength, speed, n-ray, etc... The character is not an alien.&nbsp; The=20 
(limited) background given is that he is a longshoreman that gained = 
super powers=20 
one day.&nbsp; I cannot get the player to explain this 'defining = 
moment.'&nbsp;=20 
The way I see it, if the character exceeds NHCM and/or can fly, see = 
through=20 
buildings, etc..., he has mutated beyond an ordinary person as is a=20 
mutant.&nbsp; Do agree/disagree?</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In addition, if a character is a = 
mutant in some=20 
way, have you ever let a character have a perk of 'does not show up on = 
mutant=20 
detectors.'&nbsp; If so, how many points would this cost?</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Eric</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 23:45:45 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
 
At 01:08 PM 12/7/98 +1000, Lockie wrote:  
> 
> Here are a few power concepts a player of mine came up with. . . what do you 
> think of them? 
>   
> 1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 pt pool, all apparently 
> 'vampire powers' 
> (including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly half with ultra slots.  
>   
> 2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically intended (according to 
> the player) to purchase 
> 'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as possible (this for a 
> were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed to an 
infinite-man 
> or any sfx which would reasonably explain it, as far as i could tell) 
>   
> 3: A character with an 8d6 hka and a 12 spd who only had 12 def, in a 
> relativly standard superheroic campaign- at this juncture the player stated 
> that if his character was badly injured or died, it would have more to do 
> with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.  All of the 
> characters powers were brought with various foci.  
>   
> Upon stating over the months in turn that each of these power constructs 
were 
> invalid,  
> the player has insisted that I was the one comitting a protocol 
> transgression, despite my  
> specifically stating in advance that I reserved the right to reject any 
power 
> concept on inspection.  
> In each case the player neglected to reveal the construct in question until 
> the last  
> possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent 
working on 
> the  
> powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my 
> objections.  No  
> other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this or any 
> other game.  
> Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power 
> constructs as  
> far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. 
Also, 
> what type  
> of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any 
sort 
> 
> of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused.  
 
 
Some players never get into the spirit of gaming.  To them, it's still a 
zero-sum,  
winner-take-all game.  It's easy to say "don't play with them", but hard to 
do.  I 
know, my best friend ruined many a game with his insistence of finding the 
most 
twinkish answers to every set of rules I tried to enforce genre limitations.  
He's  
moved away now, but I had to stop the game for a year because I was driving 
the other players nuts with new rules to keep up with this guy. 
 
It happens.  My advice, if you can't talk to him, and can't kill him, is to 
play a different 
game.  One that doesn't rely on numbers so much.  Numbers are easy to screw 
with. 
Maybe even a diceless game where he'll be forced to rely on his sense of 
story. 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"Posterity shall triumph in this day's business, 
even though we may regret it.  I trust we shall not." 
        John Adams. 2 July 1776 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:04:02 -0800 
From: "lizard@mrlizard.com" <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
My response to those abominations? 
 
"Get thee from my sight, and darken not my gaming table again!" 
 
Remember:The GM is God. End of story. The GM has a right to limit, 
control, contain, etc, any concept, power, or character, in order to 
preserve his idea of the world he's running. It's the responsibility 
of the player to work *with* the GM in order to create a character 
which is a)interesting to the player and, b)suitable for the GM and 
the campaign world. 
 
In the group I'm in, there tends to be a lot of email of 'drafts' of 
characters back and forth prior to actual gameplay. This not only 
eliminates nasty surprises at the gaming table, but you end up with 
characters which are fully integrated into the world. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:06:00 -0800 
From: "lizard@mrlizard.com" <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 07:58:22PM -0800, James Jandebeur wrote: 
> > So tell the player that either he comes up with a decent origin 
> > explaining how his character aquired his powers, or you'll assume he's 
> > a mutant, with whatever that means to your game world. 
>  
> I wouldn't necessarily go that far: if the player doesn't want to tell 
> you his origin (or doesn't have one in mind), but insists he's not a 
> mutant, he could be something else. But then, it's completely up to you. 
 
Yes. but it's the "up to you(the GM)" part that matters. The player 
cannot/should not have secrets from the GM, especially about things 
like origins, etc. (The reverse is of course NOT true -- it is often 
fun to suddenly find out things you didn't know about your own PC, 
though of course it takes a good GM to pull this off) 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:02:34 -0800 (PST) 
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
 
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Lockie wrote: 
 
[deletia] 
 
> Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power constructs as  
> far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. Also, what type  
> of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any sort  
> of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused.  
 
Ask the player to leave the group. Seriously. What you're describing goes 
way beyond your standard rules raping or twinkism. It sounds like he has 
no concept of character concept or genuine roleplay and is simply aiming 
for the most grotesquely effective combat monster he can get away with. 
 
But twink-vs-roleplayer comparisons not withstanding, you're the GM -- by 
definition, he has to play by your rules. If he is refusing to, he should 
be gone. 
 
... 
 
Okay, so which was that? Positive or negative? ^_^  
 
Anywho, I'm speaking from my experience as an Admin on a certain MUSH 
that, because of its premise and setting, is prone to such behavior by the 
players. Over the past two years, I've had to deal with -dozens- of 
players like the one you described. After a while, I learned that the best 
 
course was simply to ask them to leave. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:08:27 -0500 
From: "Geoff Depew" <mephron@idt.net> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
 
THis is the sort of player that I look at and say, "Never darken my gaming 
table again.  Ever." 
 
I'm not kidding.  Throw him out.  You don't need this trouble. 
 
    -----Original Message----- 
    From: Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> 
    To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
    Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 11:50 PM 
    Subject: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
 
    Here are a few power concepts a player of mine came up with. . . what do 
you think of them? 
 
    1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 pt pool, all 
apparently 'vampire powers' 
    (including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly half with ultra 
slots. 
 
    2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically intended (according 
to the player) to purchase 
    'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as possible (this for 
a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed to an 
infinite-man or any sfx which would reasonably explain it, as far as i could 
tell) 
 
    3: A character with an 8d6 hka and a 12 spd who only had 12 def, in a 
relativly standard superheroic campaign- at this juncture the player stated 
that if his character was badly injured or died, it would have more to do 
with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.  All of the 
characters powers were brought with various foci. 
 
    Upon stating over the months in turn that each of these power constructs 
were invalid, 
    the player has insisted that I was the one comitting a protocol 
transgression, despite my 
    specifically stating in advance that I reserved the right to reject any 
power concept on inspection. 
    In each case the player neglected to reveal the construct in question 
until the last 
    possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent 
working on the 
    powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my 
objections.  No 
    other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this or 
any other game. 
    Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power 
constructs as 
    far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. 
Also, what type 
    of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any 
sort 
    of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused. 
 
 
    "Enslave humanity willya?" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 02:22:27 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts.  
 
On 12/7/98, at 1:08 PM, Lockie wrote:  
 
>Here are a few power concepts a player of mine came up with. . . what do you think of them? 
> 
>1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 pt pool, all apparently 'vampire powers' 
>(including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly half with ultra slots.  
 
I don't think you can put the "raw stat bonuses" in a multipower.  However, Multipowers don't have as tight a control on them as Elemental Controls.  Besides the high number of slots, what do you think was wrong with this one? 
 
> 
>2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically intended (according to the player) to purchase 
>'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as possible (this for a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed to an infinite-man or any sfx which would reasonably explain it, as far as i could tell) 
 
Multiform's pretty cost-INefficient as a power, so he was probably doomed in his efforts here.  Also, by buying lots of unrelated powers, he should be spreading them over a pretty broad area, meaning his raw power levels may not be as high as the other players'. 
 
> 
>3: A character with an 8d6 hka and a 12 spd who only had 12 def, in a relativly standard superheroic campaign- at this juncture the player stated that if his character was badly injured or died, it would have more to do with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.  All of the characters powers were brought with various foci.  
 
If you buy foci, chances are they will be unavailable to you at some time (lost, stolen, destroyed, etc.)  A 12 def (is that 12 in PD or ED, or both?) doesn't sem to be tremendously high; 10-12d6 EB is pretty standard in a superhero game, and would produce 12 BODY damage; more powerfula attacks shouldn't be uncommon.  So I'd say he's wrong: a 12 PD/ED character is NOT by any means invulnerable in a standard superhero campaign, and if he takes any damage, it's because his defenses were not adeqyuate. 
 
At any rate, he's trying to blackmail you into treating his character preferentially. If he's just a player, not a friend, tell him you don't like to be blackmailed. If he keeps it up, kick him out, as he's also trying to subvert the rest of the group. 
 
> 
>Upon stating over the months in turn that each of these power constructs were invalid,  
>the player has insisted that I was the one comitting a protocol transgression, despite my  
>specifically stating in advance that I reserved the right to reject any power concept on inspection.  
>In each case the player neglected to reveal the construct in question until the last  
>possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent working on the  
>powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my objections.  No  
>other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this or any other game.  
 
You laid out the rules fairly.  You told him that you were the final arbiter; you told him that they would have to be submitted in advance.  I think you should have refused to let him play until you had a chance to inspect the character; you could have started the game without him (maybe letting him play an NPC until his character was approved); you could also have applied peer pressure to him by announcing beforehand that you would not be starting the game for ANYBODY until every character was in.   
 
His blatant and unwarranted challenge to your authority probably means that he doesn't accept you as a GM.  Has he ever run a game? Does he criticize other GMs? 
 
>Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power constructs as  
>far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. Also, what type  
>of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any sort  
>of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused.  
 
I think he's a bad team player, and wants the whole game to be about him.  Dump the loser. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:29:16 -0800 
From: "lizard@mrlizard.com" <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 11:45:45PM -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>  
> It happens.  My advice, if you can't talk to him, and can't kill him, is to 
> play a different 
> game.  One that doesn't rely on numbers so much.  Numbers are easy to screw 
> with. 
> Maybe even a diceless game where he'll be forced to rely on his sense of 
> story. 
>  
Since a diceless game requires a lot of trust in the GM, and a lot of 
self-restraint on the part of the players, I'm not sure that's a good 
cure for munchkinism. I would suspect the game would degenerate into 
"I did so hit him!" "Did not!" "Did too!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:36:20 -0600 
From: "MsLilith" <drake01@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
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Personaly I'd define him as an altered-human. I'd define a mutant as = 
someone who is not the same as their parent. So a person who was born = 
with super-human powers and has normal parents is a mutant. A child who = 
has magnetic powers and their parents have energy-projection powers = 
would be a mutant. A child with the same gene structure/super power (if = 
magneto had a kid with magnetic powers for example) then it'd be a = 
bloodline 
- -----Original Message----- 
    From: Eric Wylie <erk@halcyon.com> 
    To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
    Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:28 PM 
    Subject: How do you define 'mutant' 
   =20 
   =20 
   =20 
    I'd like to hear how many of you define a mutant in your Champions = 
campaigns.  At what point does a norm become a mutant?  I have a player = 
who insists his character is not a mutant and I don't agree.  The = 
character in question is a mini-superman; flight, super strength, speed, = 
n-ray, etc... The character is not an alien.  The (limited) background = 
given is that he is a longshoreman that gained super powers one day.  I = 
cannot get the player to explain this 'defining moment.'  The way I see = 
it, if the character exceeds NHCM and/or can fly, see through buildings, = 
etc..., he has mutated beyond an ordinary person as is a mutant.  Do = 
agree/disagree? 
    =20 
    In addition, if a character is a mutant in some way, have you ever = 
let a character have a perk of 'does not show up on mutant detectors.'  = 
If so, how many points would this cost? 
    =20 
    Regards, 
    Eric 
 
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<HEAD> 
 
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = 
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 = 
HTML//EN"> 
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Personaly I'd define him as an altered-human. I'd = 
define a=20 
mutant as someone who is not the same as their parent. So a person who = 
was born=20 
with super-human powers and has normal parents is a mutant. A child who = 
has=20 
magnetic powers and their parents have energy-projection powers would be = 
a=20 
mutant. A child with the same gene structure/super power (if magneto had = 
a kid=20 
with magnetic powers for example) then it'd be a bloodline</FONT></DIV> 
<BLOCKQUOTE=20 
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 
5px"> 
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original = 
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20 
    </B>Eric Wylie &lt;<A=20 
    href=3D"mailto:erk@halcyon.com">erk@halcyon.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: = 
</B><A=20 
    href=3D"mailto:champ-l@sysabend.org">champ-l@sysabend.org</A> &lt;<A = 
 
    = 
href=3D"mailto:champ-l@sysabend.org">champ-l@sysabend.org</A>&gt;<BR><B>D= 
ate:=20 
    </B>Sunday, December 06, 1998 8:28 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>How do you = 
define=20 
    'mutant'<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> 
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'd like to hear how many of you = 
define a=20 
    mutant in your Champions campaigns.&nbsp; At what point does a norm = 
become a=20 
    mutant?&nbsp; I have a player who insists his character is not a = 
mutant and=20 
    I don't agree.&nbsp; The character in question is a mini-superman; = 
flight,=20 
    super strength, speed, n-ray, etc... The character is not an = 
alien.&nbsp;=20 
    The (limited) background given is that he is a longshoreman that = 
gained=20 
    super powers one day.&nbsp; I cannot get the player to explain this=20 
    'defining moment.'&nbsp; The way I see it, if the character exceeds = 
NHCM=20 
    and/or can fly, see through buildings, etc..., he has mutated beyond = 
an=20 
    ordinary person as is a mutant.&nbsp; Do = 
agree/disagree?</FONT></DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In addition, if a character is a = 
mutant in=20 
    some way, have you ever let a character have a perk of 'does not = 
show up on=20 
    mutant detectors.'&nbsp; If so, how many points would this=20 
    cost?</FONT></DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV> 
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 = 
size=3D2>Eric</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:34:06 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
At 09:29 PM 12/6/98 -0800, lizard@mrlizard.com wrote: 
>On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 11:45:45PM -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>>  
>> It happens.  My advice, if you can't talk to him, and can't kill him, is to 
>> play a different 
>> game.  One that doesn't rely on numbers so much.  Numbers are easy to screw 
>> with. 
>> Maybe even a diceless game where he'll be forced to rely on his sense of 
>> story. 
>>  
>Since a diceless game requires a lot of trust in the GM, and a lot of 
>self-restraint on the part of the players, I'm not sure that's a good 
>cure for munchkinism. I would suspect the game would degenerate into 
>"I did so hit him!" "Did not!" "Did too!" 
 
:-) 
 
Diceless games tend to focus more on story and character development, and less 
on combat.  Combat is usually far less important.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor 
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living." 
        Juvenal, Satires 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:02:15 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant' 
 
> I'd like to hear how many of you define a mutant in your Champions campaigns.  At what point does a norm become a mutant?  I have a player who insists his character is not a mutant and I don't agree.  The character in question is a mini-superman; flight, super strength, speed, n-ray, etc... The character is not an alien.  The (limited) background given is that he is a longshoreman that gained super powers one day.  I cannot get the player to explain this 'defining moment.'  The way I see it, if the character exceeds NHCM and/or can fly, see through buildings, etc..., he has mutated beyond an ordinary person as is a mutant.  Do agree/disagree? 
 
	Well, there are mutants, and there are mutants, depending on what 
world set you are working with. 
 
	It's conceivable that the character developed powers in some way, 
possibly some sort of "mutation", but possibly through other means.  A 
magical influx or something.  He may not have realized how they happened 
at all.  Now,even if he did "mutate", he may not be defined as a mutant 
for terms of showing up on "mutant" detectors. 
 
> In addition, if a character is a mutant in some way, have you ever let a character have a perk of 'does not show up on mutant detectors.'  If so, how many points would this cost? 
 
	Sure.  Showing up on mutant detectors is a distinctive feature in 
my campaign.  One worth 15 points.  And it's important, what with Genocide 
and CAM running around. 
 
	Still, a character exhibiting unexplained powers, even if he/she 
doesn't detect as a "mutant", may still be targetted by anti-mutant 
groups. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:36:17 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Take a look at these power concepts. 
 
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Ah, yes...what to do with the Munchkin--also known as the 'Power Nazi" 
or "Fun Sucker". 
 
There's no easy answer--this guy seems to be just interested in being 
the Main Man--seems to me he wants to dominate the game at the expense 
of others, and has no care for role playing or exploring character 
growth.  He has to be the STAR, the only star, and be it right now. 
They refuse to give themselves vulnerabilities.  They refuse to give 
themselves chinks in their armor.  They just want to burn the brightest. 
 
I've had more than a few in my time, and unfortunately, the only thing 
you can do is either a) negotiate him down from his postion, which is 
difficult but doable or b) tell him it ain't gonna fly  and suggest he 
find another game. 
 
Since he seems to want to ambush you with these characters at the last 
minute (a common Fun Sucker ploy), negotiation is unlikely to work.   
 
Have you thought about--God, I hate suggesting this--insisting he submit 
character concepts BEFORE building the characters?  Or asking him to 
come up with a concept, then saying, "Right, I'll take it from 
here--I'll build your character so it will work within the framework of 
my gameworld and not unbalance the game"? 
 
But the one thing you can't do is give in to  Fun Sucker.  You are the 
Gm; you make the rules.  Playing in your game is not the Fun Sucker's 
right, but his privlege.  And privleges can be taken way if a Fun Sucker 
refuses to play well with others. 
 
"'You mean something ripped him open and ate out his insides?" 
 
"Like an Oreo cookie...except, you know, without the chocolate-y cookie 
goodness." 
     --Buffy and Willow, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER 
____________________________________ 
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is 
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "My Worst Break Up" can now be found at 
MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj 
 
 
 
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From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Take a look at these power concepts. 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:08:54 +1000 
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Here are a few power concepts a player of mine came up with. . . what do = 
you think of them? 
 
1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 pt pool, all = 
apparently 'vampire powers' 
(including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly half with ultra = 
slots.=20 
 
2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically intended (according = 
to the player) to purchase 
'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as possible (this for = 
a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed to an = 
infinite-man or any sfx which would reasonably explain it, as far as i = 
could tell) 
 
3: A character with an 8d6 hka and a 12 spd who only had 12 def, in a = 
relativly standard superheroic campaign- at this juncture the player = 
stated that if his character was badly injured or died, it would have = 
more to do with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.  All = 
of the characters powers were brought with various foci.=20 
 
Upon stating over the months in turn that each of these power constructs = 
were invalid,=20 
the player has insisted that I was the one comitting a protocol = 
transgression, despite my=20 
specifically stating in advance that I reserved the right to reject any = 
power concept on inspection.=20 
In each case the player neglected to reveal the construct in question = 
until the last=20 
possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent = 
working on the=20 
powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my = 
objections.  No=20 
other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this or = 
any other game.=20 
Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these power = 
constructs as=20 
far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic setting. = 
Also, what type=20 
of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I welcome any = 
sort=20 
of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused.=20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Enslave humanity willya?" 
 
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> 
<HTML> 
<HEAD> 
 
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = 
http-equiv=3DContent-Type> 
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>Here are a few power concepts = 
a player of=20 
mine came up with. . . what do you think of them?</FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>1: A multipower framework with 21 slots, with a 60 = 
pt pool,=20 
all apparently 'vampire powers'</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>(including raw stat bonuses and so forth), roughly = 
half=20 
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>with ultra slots. </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>2: A character wth a set of multiforms specifically = 
intended=20 
(according to the player) to purchase</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>'as many powers as possible' for as cheap a price as = 
possible=20 
(this for a were-creature(not a shapeshifter for instance), as opposed = 
to an=20 
infinite-man or any sfx which would </FONT><FONT size=3D3>reasonably = 
explain it,=20 
as far as i could tell)</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>3: A character with an 8d6 hka = 
and a 12=20 
spd </FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>who only had 12 = 
def, in a=20 
relativly standard superheroic campaign- <FONT size=3D3></FONT>at this = 
juncture=20 
the player stated that if his character was badly injured or died, it = 
would have=20 
more to do with my gm-ing style then his characters' shortcomings.&nbsp; = 
All of=20 
the characters powers were brought with various foci. = 
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20 
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Upon stating over the months in turn that each of = 
these power=20 
constructs were invalid, </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>the player has insisted that I was the one comitting = 
a=20 
protocol transgression, despite my </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>specifically stating in advance that I reserved the = 
right to=20 
reject any power concept on inspection. </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>In each case the player neglected to reveal = 
the=20 
construct in question until the last </DIV> 
<DIV>possible moment, and insisted that the amount of time he had spent = 
working=20 
on the </DIV> 
<DIV>powers gave him some rights to use the character reguardless of my=20 
objections.&nbsp; No </DIV> 
<DIV>other player has made objections of any sort to my conduct in this = 
or any=20 
other game. </DIV> 
<DIV>Question to the list, what would your own jugements be on these = 
power=20 
constructs as </DIV> 
<DIV>far as wether they are valid, in terms of a normal superheroic = 
setting.=20 
Also, what type </DIV> 
<DIV>of reaction would you have to a player with this attitude? I = 
welcome any=20 
sort </DIV> 
<DIV>of response, positive, negative, or (like myself) mildly amused. = 
</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&quot;Enslave humanity=20 
willya?&quot;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
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