Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 95

From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:29 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #95 
champ-l-digest       Tuesday, December 15 1998       Volume 01 : Number 095 
In this issue: 
    Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps 
    Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
    Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps 
    Re: RAVEN appearances 
    Re: Updated VIPER 
    Re: Special Effects 
    Re: VIPER Revision 
    Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
    Re: VIPER Revision  
    Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
    Mail Delay 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:05:49 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps 
At 12:28 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Dale Ward wrote: 
>---Wayne Shaw  wrote: 
>> Anybody checked this recently?  I just was over there and the links to 
>> Hexmap 4.5 and any of the other programs at the same addy don't seem to 
>> for me. 
>      Wayne, I didn't have any problem downloading HM4.5 but, when I unzipped 
>it, installed it and tried to run it, I got an error message that said 
>"Actor31p" had caused HM to perform an illegal action and HM was being shut 
>      I don't even know what (or, possibly WHO) Actor31p is, but enticing a 
>perfectly innocent program into illegal actions sounds like a misdemeanor at 
>the very least. 
>      Book 'em, Dano! 
I wrote to the author of HM4.5.  He said.... 
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:33:30 -0700 
Message-Id: <199705282233.PAA07799@tranquility.gyugyi.com> 
From: Paul John Gyugyi <pjg@tranquility.gyugyi.com> 
CC: paul@gyugyi.com, nolan@erols.com 
In-reply-to: <c=US%a=_%p=SPA%l=PILGRIM-970528150548Z-4028@smtpgate.SPA.COM> 
Subject: Re: Hex Map 
X-UIDL: d1c88ef23e 
Version 4.5 was the last, available at: 
Use then number 000014 to register for free. 
- -gyug  
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor 
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living." 
        Juvenal, Satires 
Scott C. Nolan 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:17:02 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> 
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
Michael Sprague writes: 
> By her logic a Force Field has two sides.  One side absorbs incoming 
> damage, while the other is transparent to outgoing (your own) attacks.  In 
> her case, the Force Field will have an Area of Effect.  She wants to be able 
> to turn it inside out, such that when she puts it around someone, all 
> incoming attacks act exactly as they would have otherwise.  Any attack (and 
> were not talking drains and the like here) launched by the target would be 
> reduced in effect by the same amount as the force field would normally 
> protect.  
Sounds like a suppress, though it won't work _precisely_ as described here. 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:38:39 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps 
From: Scott von Berg <scottobear@geocities.com> 
>I hear, and obey, Scott 253. All references to the conspiracy have been 
>from any credible person's files. Anyone still maintaining the information 
>considered harmless, or will be laughed out of any official investigation. 
For all interested in being protected from this horrible invasion, I have 
the solution. 
Scott Guard. 
<g,d, and r, vvf> 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:20:07 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances 
Scott Bennie wrote: 
> > "Raven and the ReDirection Cartel were taken over as cash cows to fund the 
> > new VIPER."  Okay, there it is.  You can see how I might have missed a 
> > single line buried in the middle of paragraph four.  Heck, I had to scan 
> > through the whole page twice to find it *after* you told me where it was. 
> And here I told Bruce to use a smaller font to make it harder to find. :-) It's 
> also in the nifty chart of the VIPER organization. But it definitely needed a 
> section at least as big as the one we gave Duchess. 
> > So, Scott, feel like doing a 256-page VIPER Second Edition?  You can use 
> > some of the extra pages to cover the takeover.   :) 
> I may do some stuff with VIPER again in the future. Although Raven never did much 
> for me; just VIPER with monocles and a little more aristocratic flair.  But I 
> suspect if I sat down with them, and look again at how Steve handled them in Dark 
> Champions, I might find enough hooks to do something I liked with them. 
> So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second edition, Hero 
> System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What would you add, 
> subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched? 
> Scott Bennie 
Hope you don't mind me jumping in.  A couple changes I would suggest are as follows. 
First, free Raven the new Soviet Republic giving small amount of the land back to the 
decendants of their origanal owners and the dissolution of the Soviet military, a few 
enterpising young aristocrats should be able to break Raven free from Viper's control. 
Second, do the agents correctly, give them weapons and equipment based on the rules 
on pages 204 - 206 in the BBB. Its amazing how effective a 100 point agent can be 
if his/her equipment is actually bought Focus, Indepentant, Strength Min, etc. 
Third, get rid of Viperia. 
Fourth, give more low level NPC's 25, 50 and 75 point characters should be the 
mainstay of any organization since they are the most common and pentyful. 
Fifth, go more into how Viper gets the money to finance their more exotic 
escapades.  Smuggleing, Prostitution, and other crimes seem right up Viper's 
Please expand on these.  Don't make another here's some characters, equipment 
and some main players.  The great thing about SA:COH is the flavor and history 
that is their that the GM can insert their campaign into.  It would be great if Viper 
could also be done that way. 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:48:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: "Daniel P. Pawtowski" <dpawtows@acm.vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER 
>    I think they got it because their original version had it. 
>    At the same time, it should be noted that their Find Weakness is with 
> one VIPER weapon.  One.  That's it.  If the agent trained with a VR-21 
  I've never bothered to give Find Weakness to Viper agents, it's too 
much work to keep track of which thug has rolled how many times on 
which PC.   I usually just toss in more dice or AP if they need to  
be more dangerous. 
  If I ever had to explain why they lost this ability, I'd put it 
down to training costs.   Say, Viper HQ figured out it was more  
effective to train 50 agents with +1 OCV, using the same resources that 
were needed to train ten agents with Find Weakness.  Particularly 
in campaigns where Viper agents are more 'disposable', it isn't  
cost-effective to sink a lot of effort into each one. 
                                           Daniel Pawtowski 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:23:48 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Special Effects 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
>>    Does Battlesuit Guy get to use his Power Defense against the 
>>Timelord's Drain? If so, considering that his Special Effect is so 
>>different than what is needed to stop the Timelord's drain how do you 
>>explain it. 
>BG did get a Limitation for that, didn't he? If not, then this is a 
>case of 'well, it seems that your shielding also affects temporal 
I'd probably declare that Timelord's Drain was NND. After all, _most_ SFX 
for "Power Defense" would be useless. I'd generally rule that if the power 
effects your environment in such a way as to act upon you as a Drain, it is 
NND. For example: DEX Drain from slick surfaces, changing the rate of time 
flow for SPD/DEX Drain, increased gravity for STR Drain, or any changing of 
the physical laws of the universe that results in a Drain effect. Power 
Defense protects you, not the universe. 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:56:32 -0200 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br> 
Subject: Books 
	Hey Hero People!  
	I got a question to you. A lot of time I listen from you talk about 
UMA, and another Ultimate... But how a recent fan like me will have a 
chance to purchase this books if they are or out of print or just 
purchasable by PDF format at es Hero had any plans to Insert it at the 
5th edition? 
And I got a general question... If Champs is going  so well why let 
other company developt the main product? And where is 1997-1998 new Books? 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:02:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: VIPER Revision 
At 03:10 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
<excerpt>At 1:09 PM -0800 12/14/98, Scott Bennie wrote: 
>  <italic> 7.  Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the 
latest info"  
>on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States.  Talk to Champions 
</italic>>players from around the country to see what they've done with 
nests in 
>their area, and include that information.  For example, I know Shelley 
>Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on  
>her website), and I have some material for the latest Portland. 
>What? What has that Shelley person ever done that was worth looking at? 
:-) Seriously, this is a great idea, though it could quickly blow up into 
a supplement by itself. 
<<snicker>  Actually, just for clarification's sake, it was the Las Vegas 
nest, and my friend Jennifer did all the hard work!  
   Sorry, Shelley.  I thought you were the new Nest Leader in Reno.... 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:13:32 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
>A new player in our group is creating her first character, and she has an 
>idea that makes my head hurt. 
>She want's a Force Field, 1 Hex Area Effect, Ranged, and Usable by Others. 
>This way she can protect herself and/or others at range.  I can live with 
>Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming, 
>allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power.  In the future, she 
>like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, such that if she puts it 
>around a person, all their attacks are affected by the force field, but 
>attacks targeted on this person would hit at full strength. 
>On one hand I am trying to explain why the power doesn't work that way, but 
>on the other hand, it does sort of make sense.  Obviously, one would need 
>the "Usable Against Others" advantage.  And for that matter, there is 
>nothing to stop the target from moving out of the targeted hex. 
>To actually do this, I think she would use a Multi Power, with two slots, 
>one for each specific use. 
>Anyway, I'm torn on the issue.  We did tell her to come up with what she 
>wanted, and we could make it work.  What would you do or suggest? 
Entangle, Takes no damage, does not inhibit movement, only to stop attacks 
from person(s) 
inside of the effect (-1). Backlash may also be desired. 
Attacks from outside are not affected, but attacks from the inside are 
stopped by the Entangle. 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:00:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: VIPER Revision  
At 01:09 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Scott Bennie wrote:  
<excerpt><italic>Actually, I think that what is needed is an UNTIL 
writeup like the VIPER</italic>  
<italic>book.  Maybe not quite as big, but the brief thing in Hero 
Almanac II</italic>  
<italic>wasn't sufficient.  I'd like to see stats for the UNTIL AI that's 
<italic>its game with the Supreme Serpent.  After all, if VIPER and UNTIL 
are big</italic>  
<italic>enemies, they need to be equal.  So maybe that's a project Hero 
should be</italic>  
<italic>working on.</italic>  
Steve Long was working on UNTIL some time ago; I suspect the work may be 
subsumed into an UNTIL project for CNM, where the next VIPER revision is 
almost certain to occur.  
   As for UNTIL, as much as been said. 
   As for a VIPER book, well, there could be a VIPER book for the New 
Champions Universe and another for the Champions Universe. 
   For that matter, there could still be a CU UNTIL book even with 
Steve's CNM version, just so the title is different (and since all CNM 
book titles seem to have "Champions: The New Millennium" as the first for 
words of the title, I don't think that'd be hard). 
<excerpt><italic>Bob Greenwade said:</italic>  
<italic>1.  Update all characters to 5th Edition.  (That much is actually 
<italic>obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.)  Arguably, 
<italic>utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books.</italic>  
Yes, it's obvious. I really like Ultimate Martial Artist. The only 
trouble is that I don't like to require the GM to have more than the 
basic book when using a supplement. But this could be handled in the 
powers notes.  
   As I alluded to someone else earlier, avoid the altogether "new rules" 
for most things other than the styles and maneuvers in TUMA.  Note that 
I'm not saying to not use them, but be judicious about it in case the 
reader doesn't happen to have that volume. 
<excerpt> <italic>2.  Give the existing supervillain characters some 
I'd rather suggest where the GM might want to give experience in the 
adjusting power level section, rather than evolve the character, or put 
together templates for important characters at varying power levels. 
Otherwise, it encourages power escalation in the supplements.  
   Villains who continue to exist for a few years will gain experience.  
At the same time, that doesn't have to mean a significant power level 
increase.  A villain could get a couple of new KSes, some additional 
Martial Arts maneuvers, have minor increases in Characteristics, get some 
Contacts, learn some new way of applying existing Powers (like a couple 
of additional Multipower or EC slots), and the like. 
<excerpt><italic>3.  Add a couple of solo villains.</italic>  
Actually, I thought there were too many. Maybe I'm wrong. 
   Just a couple, like Bluejay and maybe one or two others.  Throw in a 
street-level super with martial arts and a lot of guns, and maybe a 
   Oh, and of *course* a super vehicle operator!  You can't forget those! 
<excerpt> <italic>4.  Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- 
not because he</italic>  
<italic>sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him 
<italic>VIPER.  (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.)</italic>  
Probably a good idea, though perhaps a scenario could detail some 
problems with Castle Security leading him to be tempted to return to the 
fold, and give the PCs a chance to help him stay on the straight and 
The ironic thing was that I designed Citadel in <italic>Villainy 
Unbound</italic> as a character who'd *never* leave VIPER. I was rather 
tired of the "villain betrays VIPER motif". But Brannon did a great job 
with him in Castle Inc.  
   Like I implied above, Castle Inc. could show up in an appendix, being 
involved in some all-new full-length scenario (possibly replacing 
"Ascension," which could become part of VIPER's history). 
<excerpt> <italic>  6.  Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to also 
include "How VIPER</italic>  
<italic>Hunts Your Character's Enemies."  If the PCs are dealing with 
(for example)</italic>  
<italic>the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved?</italic>  
Good idea. BTW, I wanted to kill off Power Crusher in VIPER, but Sean 
Fannon, who had just made the Crusher Gang for Champions Universe, cried 
"foul". Sean's no fun. :-) I had wanted to have VIPER get back at one of 
its traitors *just once*. It probably wasn't necessary, though I'm sure 
VIPER would have loved to have released "How VIPER Deals With Traitors 
II: The Crushing of Power Crusher".  
   Fine, then.  Kill Retrograde and Escapade instead, so Surge and 
Blackout can go join IMAGE.  ;-] 
   (I would've suggested some Cy-Force members, by I have my own designs 
on that outfit.) 
<excerpt>  <italic> 7.  Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover 
"the latest info"</italic>  
<italic>on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States.  Talk to 
<italic>players from around the country to see what they've done with 
nests in</italic>  
<italic>their area, and include that information.  For example, I know 
<italic>Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest 
(it's on</italic>  
<italic>her website), and I have some material for the latest 
What? What has that Shelley person ever done that was worth looking at? 
:-) Seriously, this is a great idea, though it could quickly blow up into 
a supplement by itself.  
   It could, at that. For that reason, if you decide to go with this, I'd 
suggest making each description as concise as possible, like those on 
pages 33-35 of the existing work (if that long). 
<excerpt>  <italic> 8.  Present a handful of weapons that are 
specifically designed to deal</italic>  
<italic>with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions).  In fact, a 
<italic>scenario could be centered around this.  The point, though, is 
that VIPER</italic>  
<italic>will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed 
to deal</italic>  
<italic>with specific individuals.  VIPER could even have special task 
forces to</italic>  
<italic>deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the 
<italic>Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if 
<italic>become troublesome enough.</italic>  
A good idea, though I think advice needs to be given on how to give clues 
to PCs when they're being hunted and how to run a "VIPER hunts the PCs 
   This is a good idea. 
   Actually, though, I don't think more than a page or two could (or, at 
any rate, should) be devoted to the whole of what I listed under #8. 
<excerpt> <italic>  10.  Include an entire section where each other 
Champions Universe</italic>  
<italic>organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how 
<italic>regards and deals with that organization.  (Each would be a 
quarter-page to</italic>  
<italic>a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship 
VIPER does that to an extent; expansion is always possible.  
   When I get into doing this part on VOICE 2000, I'll probably want to 
discuss this matter with you (as well as with Steve Perrin). 
<excerpt>My own preference is for genetic manipulation to be relative 
uncommon, for the same reasons you give for power armor later.  
   I tend to agree here. 
<excerpt>Well, all villains should scream bitch and moan when used out of 
the box. It's a GM's job to adjust them for the campaign. As for Mirror 
Man, we could have him broken into little bits somewhere. I like killing 
villains... :-)  
   I like this idea too.  If you do it, though, make sure you describe 
the emotional impact (if any) it would have on his teammates. 
<excerpt><excerpt>>2) Why in the name of god do they need to compete with 
COIL? King Cobra  
>is a power mad looney, but he's still a looney. The "Battle over a Snake  
>Motif" is slightly silly. 
</excerpt>Well, Cliff liked it. And sometimes when you get into a 
vendetta, you just can't leave it alone. VIPER has a lot of problems with 
   Now, *there's* an understatement!  :-] 
<excerpt><excerpt>>8) VIPER doesn't need any more weapons. 
</excerpt>Whimper... Actually, I think a couple new guns to through 
players off who are too familiar with the current mix would be okay. I'd 
like to add some medium powered weapons with some good ranged scopes, and 
remove or downplay the weapons with the really hefty OCV bonuses, 
changing the OCV bonuses to range bonuses.  
   Expand the selection of dedicated-SFX weapons too.  Sure, the SFX-01 
can cover just about anything, but at 10d6 it's still weaker than a 15d6 
weapon even if the 15d6 weapon only covers one SFX.  And if VIPER knows 
who it's going to be facing, it can arm its agents appropriately. 
<excerpt>Finally. It must be noted that a new VIPER project for Champions 
4th/5th is not in the works. Cliff and I discussed a second VIPER project 
after VIPER came out; I wanted to do a book that focused on adventures, 
and Nest layouts, and keep the new villains down to a minimum, since I 
felt that VIPER was a little overstuffed with them - new villains would 
mostly have been Nest Leaders. But given that I (and a lot of good 
friends) had gone for years without being paid by ICE, I felt it'd be 
counterproductive to do any more work for them. (BTW, ICE did eventually 
pay off its bills, after Hero took the license back and the Middle Earth 
CCG gave ICE a needed cash boost).  
   Well, now that Hero is publishing its own under the HERO Plus banner, 
maybe you can give it a go.  Given the approach of the Fifth Edition Hero 
System Rulebook, I'd certainly call it welcome. 
   For what it's worth, the detailed work-up that I'm giving VOICE is 
something that I refer to as "The VIPER Treatment," after your book.  The 
VIPER Sourcebook showed us how an organization book should be done, like 
Aaron Allston did for genre books with Ninja Hero.  All I'm doing with 
the format now is tweaking it a little. 
<excerpt>Thanks for the feedback. So no one wanted to kill Viperia?  
   Here's a thought: a mini-scenario in which she is actually killed by 
DEMON (though I'm not quite clear on why they don't like her).  In the 
wake of her murder, Python puts VIPER resources at the PCs' disposal -- 
as if they really *wanted* that!  >:-] 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:47:36 -0500 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
>Entangle, Takes no damage, does not inhibit movement, only to stop attacks 
>from person(s) 
>inside of the effect (-1). Backlash may also be desired. 
>Attacks from outside are not affected, but attacks from the inside are 
>stopped by the Entangle. 
Except that does not match the desired effect.  If the intent was simply to 
stop the attack then Force Wall would also work.  The intent is to dampen 
the attack, not stop it. 
Suppress probably best matches the desired effect, and is probably what I 
will have her use. 
~ Mike 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:07:22 -0800 (PST) 
From: Oscar Tibor <oscartibor@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Mail Delay 
I haven't recieved the usual amount of messages 
 from the mailer today. 
Is anyone else having this problem? 
Oscar Tibor 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #95 

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