Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 96
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 2:31 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #96
champ-l-digest Wednesday, December 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 096
In this issue:
Re: the cottage game weekend
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
Re: Mail Delay
Re: Critique Needed: Fiendish Plot
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: CAPTURING SOMEONE
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: Special Effects
Re: How do you define 'mutant'
RE: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
Re: VIPER Revision
Re: Updated VIPER
RE: the cottage game weekend
Re: Updated VIPER [Long!]
Use of VIPER was-Re: VIPER Revision
CHAR:Mastadon (was Fireman skills)
RE: Updated VIPER [Long!]
RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!]
RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 19:03:42
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: the cottage game weekend
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:08:02 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>Then, in complete isolation from the
>world, we put in about thirty hours of gaming between 11pm Friday and 5pm
>Sunday, breaking only to eat, sleep,
So far so good.
>go outside and blow a spliff.
'Ello 'ello 'ello.
Not so good.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:54:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Greetings!
Here's an idea...
Have her buy a regular Force Field with enough AoE to encompass every
hex in the known universe EXCEPT the target hex!
But, seriously... wouldn't this problem be so much simpler to solve if
the basic Force Field power didn't allow outgoing attacks to pass without
buying Personal Immunity?
So, why not rewrite the power?!? Geez... what a concept!
I've said it before and I'll probably say it again... it's YOUR game!
"Do what thou wilst" shall be the whole of the law!
Dale A. Ward
<Free Spirited Gamer>
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:58:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
>> creation programs like HeroMaker and Creation Workshop around I've
>> haven't done a character up by hand in years.
>It scares a lot. If you don't use a PC (like me) you don't have acess
to
>Heromaker nor to Creation Workshop (HEY HERO PEOPLE LOOK TO THE MACS!
>COME TO MAC SIDE OF THE FORCE!).
Real-PC is a fine DOS 6.22 emulator, and it does a great job of
running Heromakr.exe in a Mac window. It pained me to have to soil
my Power-Mac with DOS germs, but it's worth it for the Hero System :)
==
Laissez le bon pim roulez! Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
Greetings!
- ---Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> wrote:
>
> From: Scott von Berg <scottobear@geocities.com>
>
>
> >I hear, and obey, Scott 253. All references to the conspiracy have been
> removed
> >from any credible person's files. Anyone still maintaining the information
> is
> >considered harmless, or will be laughed out of any official investigation.
>
>
> For all interested in being protected from this horrible invasion, I have
> the solution.
>
> Scott Guard.
>
> <g,d, and r, vvf>
>
> Filksinger
>
FREEZE! You're all under arrest for violation of Web Statute 404.13,
Section 8, Paragraph 39...
Being Silly Without A License!
Dale A. Ward
<WebCop>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:05:04 -0600
From: Robert Harrison <rharriso@iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail Delay
>I haven't recieved the usual amount of messages
> from the mailer today.
>
>Is anyone else having this problem?
>
>
>Oscar Tibor
>
>oscartibor@yahoo.com
Yes, I seem to have stopped received messages from champ-l sometime this
morning (Dec. 15th).
- -Bob Harrison
____________________________
Robert L. Harrison
Department of Entomology
411 Science II
Iowa State University
Phone: (515) 294-3963
Fax: (515) 294-5957
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:51:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Critique Needed: Fiendish Plot
At 02:56 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>How's this? The police all "head for the hills" in order to stop the madman,
>but the heroes have clues that indicate that the drug that makes the rats
>insane is actually a gas that is lighter than air. So while the policemen
>run to high ground, looking for the villain, the heroes head for the
>_outlet_ of the system.
I do not say this often:
Oooooooo! :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:14:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
> great story about avatar looking for Hero Games in Brazil
That's a lot like the experiences of a friend of mine.
We'll call him the Egyptian. He couldn't find s4!+ for Champions.
So he went out looking in Alabama, the land of the blues:
I wrote a little song about it.
Would you like to hear it?
Here it goes....
Big ol'Egyptoid, jussa walkin to the sto.
Big Ol'Egyptoid, prayin hard fo that game sto.
Caint find no Hero Games chile, not in Bama no mo.
Well there's about 17 more verses, but I won't bore you
with them here. Well I guess I could, there's verses about
Internet searches, convention searches, side-trips to scour
local markets (local= +-200 miles), and jussa walkin down that road...
==
Laissez le bon pim roulez! Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:53:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
At 07:20 PM 12/14/98 -0500, Michael Sprague wrote:
>In the future she wants to have second use for this power. The target will
>be covered by an energy field that lets in all attacks but reduces the
>effect of outgoing ED/PD based attacks. At the moment, I don't know if the
>target can simply walk out of the area, or if the effect would go right with
>him.
If she buys it as an AE ability, the target will be able to walk right
out, though if she drops the AE it'll move with the target. (I'm
reasonably sure that Darkness is the only area-type attack that works
otherwise.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:49:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAPTURING SOMEONE
At 04:59 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>If you know the character real well, and can identify a situation that he
>might have fallen prey to, then one twist I have used successfully is to
>have the session begin AFTER his abduction, but before the Nazi's get what
>they want. Maybe he was drugged, gassed, hypnotized, whatever. But the
>PC's memory is hazy at best, and maybe what he remembers isn't exactly
true...
This is a good point. I've known a few people who have been rendered
unconscious by one thing or another, and it's fairly typical to not be able
to recall the events that lead up to it.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:02:46 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:47:36 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Entangle, Takes no damage, does not inhibit movement, only to stop attacks
>>from person(s)
>>inside of the effect (-1). Backlash may also be desired.
>>
>>Attacks from outside are not affected, but attacks from the inside are
>>stopped by the Entangle.
>
>
>Except that does not match the desired effect. If the intent was simply to
>stop the attack then Force Wall would also work. The intent is to dampen
>the attack, not stop it.
Doesn't Force Wall do this? Even if the wall is brought down, it still
reduces the attack by the strength of the wall. The BBB points out
that a Wall can be made transparent to Physical or Energy attacks for
a +1/2 advantage; if she wants to make it transparent to attacks
directed at the target but affects what he shoots back out, I'd create
a new advantage that costs +1 or +1 1/2.
John Lansford
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 19:28:12
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Special Effects
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:23:48 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>
>
><snip>
>>> Does Battlesuit Guy get to use his Power Defense against the
>>>Timelord's Drain? If so, considering that his Special Effect is so
>>>different than what is needed to stop the Timelord's drain how do you
>>>explain it.
>>
>>BG did get a Limitation for that, didn't he? If not, then this is a
>>case of 'well, it seems that your shielding also affects temporal
>>distortions'.
>>
>
>
>I'd probably declare that Timelord's Drain was NND. After all, _most_ SFX
>for "Power Defense" would be useless. I'd generally rule that if the power
>effects your environment in such a way as to act upon you as a Drain, it is
>NND. For example: DEX Drain from slick surfaces, changing the rate of time
>flow for SPD/DEX Drain, increased gravity for STR Drain, or any changing of
>the physical laws of the universe that results in a Drain effect. Power
>Defense protects you, not the universe.
So long as he pays for it, that's fine. Remember, this could be a PC
we're discussing.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:44:38 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant'
yeah i know- that's what i said the post before last. .
- -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, December 13, 1998 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: How do you define 'mutant'
>
>>and like i said
>>'it went bang! it must be magic!'
>> -and as it is, that's ok, a science about magic is fine by me.
>>and i'd like to see you measure such a vague concept in scientific terms
On
>>the other hand, if it had some kind of ambient em properties, that could
be
>>tracked predicably, that'd be another matter. . .
>
>Doesn't have to be trackable by other methods to be predictable and
>demonstrable. If I can produce results with it on a consistent basis, show
>how I'm doing it (even if others can't duplicate the results
>routinely...after all, there's nothing about science that requires someone
>without the proper tools to be able to test for it...if there was,
neutrinos
>would be 'unscientific'), get the same results (more or less) every time I
>do it, and explain the theory of it in a way consistent with the results,
>then it's science. Even if the rational is magical.
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:40:08 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On
> Behalf Of Dale Ward
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:44 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
>
>
> Greetings!
>
> ---Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > From: Scott von Berg <scottobear@geocities.com>
> >
> >
> > >I hear, and obey, Scott 253. All references to the
> conspiracy have been
> > removed
> > >from any credible person's files. Anyone still
> maintaining the information
> > is
> > >considered harmless, or will be laughed out of any
> official investigation.
> >
> >
> > For all interested in being protected from this horrible
> invasion, I have
> > the solution.
> >
> > Scott Guard.
> >
> > <g,d, and r, vvf>
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
>
> FREEZE! You're all under arrest for violation of Web
> Statute 404.13,
> Section 8, Paragraph 39...
>
>
> Being Silly Without A License!
>
> Dale A. Ward
> <WebCop>
As a filksinger, I have license to be silly whenever I please.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:44:51 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: Re: VIPER Revision
>Thanks for the feedback. So no one wanted to kill Viperia?
Well, I only skimmed her writeup. I don't have whichever book talks
about Malachite (Champs Universe?), so the references didn't make much
sense to me. I could see keeping her for high-powered campaigns, but I'd
probably never use her.
As far as other revisions go ... an updated weapon/vehicle section would
be nice -- VIPER could have pulled some items out of production and
replaced them. They definitely need a wider range of vehicles.
VF-2: Did Kevin Armstrong leave his brain behind when he defected? If
the team is still around (and if you're using Shelley's PRIMUS book, it
may not be), give the man a code name already. Using his real name when
he's supposed to be dead is just _asking_ for trouble. Overall, though,
I prefer VF-2 to VF-1. VF-1 really doesn't have much reason to stick
together, while VF-2 could continue as a team even if the PCs fried the
Supreme Serpent.
I'd like to see more scenario outlines, even if I don't use them as
written they're a good way to jump-start my imagination.
Leah
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:32:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER
At 08:48 PM 12/14/98 -0500, Daniel P. Pawtowski wrote:
>> I think they got it because their original version had it.
>> At the same time, it should be noted that their Find Weakness is with
>> one VIPER weapon. One. That's it. If the agent trained with a VR-21
>
> I've never bothered to give Find Weakness to Viper agents, it's too
>much work to keep track of which thug has rolled how many times on
>which PC. I usually just toss in more dice or AP if they need to
>be more dangerous.
> If I ever had to explain why they lost this ability, I'd put it
>down to training costs. Say, Viper HQ figured out it was more
>effective to train 50 agents with +1 OCV, using the same resources that
>were needed to train ten agents with Find Weakness. Particularly
>in campaigns where Viper agents are more 'disposable', it isn't
>cost-effective to sink a lot of effort into each one.
Using this logic, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to replace the
Find Weakness with +2 CSLs with Ranged Combat. The cost is the same, and
the GM doesn't have to track those Find Weakness Rolls.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:32:40 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend
] >Then, in complete isolation from the
] >world, we put in about thirty hours of gaming between 11pm
] Friday and 5pm
] >Sunday, breaking only to eat, sleep,
]
] So far so good.
]
] >go outside and blow a spliff.
]
] 'Ello 'ello 'ello.
]
] Not so good.
Right. This wasn't the part I was soliciting opinions on. If you don't
partake of the herb, that's your choice. To me, it's as integral a part of
gaming as Zesty Doritos and Coke. It does make the math a little harder
though. Hearing someone poo-poo weed at this point is a little like hearing
that rpg's will cost me my soul. I always respect house rules when it comes
to smoking up. If the host don't smoke, I don't smoke.
I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm advocating the use of
controlled substances for anyone else, especially minors yatta yatta yatta.
I just thought it might be interesting to compare the environment people
game in instead of which house rules and mechanical interpretations everyone
uses. The atmosphere and environment you game in has a real impact on the
flavour of your game. John Jerles mentioned playing on the wall of a real
castle. How cool is that? That's got to be about the best possible place to
play in all the world. Hey John, next time you're going to do that, let me
jump in for a session, okay?
I'm sure we've all gamed in a classroom at our high schools or in our
parents rumpus rooms on a card table. I want to know where the coolest
places to play are. C'mon, somebody must have bothered to go to some effort
at some point.
Obviously, a lot of strange gaming environments don't lend themselves well
to rolling lots of dice and drawing maps, but they can be great for small
subsessions where you're playing a long conversation, negotiation,
interrogation, planning session or meeting. I can't be the only one who
likes to do this.
Enough talk.
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:07:39 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER [Long!]
- -----Original Message-----
From: Hudson, Robert <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
> I feel like the same goes for the huge list of scenarios and plot
>ideas that you're suggesting here too - frankly, elitist as it sounds - if
>any GM can't create his own material , then he needs to hang up the hat and
>pack it in. [Note: I do not mean the occasional emergency pick-up game, or
>the real-life crisis shortened planning time game and the like, I'm talking
>about people who have to depend on the published material to give them
>*every* major plotline and scenario in their games.]
>
point one- if you're bying a product at all, you expect it to have content.
I can work up a bunch of overviews in my head, i don't need that. If i can
do the other stuff, i also don't need a product for that,.
If i buy a product, i want content.
> I appears to me that what we need is simply good, solid material
>that is thought provoking - not immense, senseless lists of agencies and
>tie-ins to groups no one cares about, and equally immense lists of
equipment
>and scenario ideas that anyone with the will to do so can create on their
>own. In this case, I really believe that the idea of "Less is more" strikes
>home pretty squarely.
>
Point two- relationships define a group. How does viper deal with tech
groups?
how about drug cartels? What about freelance supers, evil spirits, secret
societies,
banana republics, daemon lords, ninja clans? That has meaning, more than
simply a short explanation of what the group is doing, or the ever-vague
'matirial'.
Explaining how it gets on with groups is VERY important, the most vital
concept- we
can make up our own npc's and so forth, we need to know about thge writers
vision of how
these people do their buisness, and with whom. Are they anti-magic? Do they
get their asses
kicked every time they take on the ninjas?.
> Rob Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:21:35 -0700
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Use of VIPER was-Re: VIPER Revision
>
> >VIPER Force Two: Well, within a week, this group is going to cease to
> >be, because more than likely, Armstrong will be the new Golden Avenger,
> >and the Current Golden Avenger, AKA Adolf Hitler, will be either in
> >Stronghold or dead. To request details of the "Golden Ages" plotline,
> >conceived in the first feverish days of my champions campaign eleven
> >years ago and finally coming to fruition now, mail me separately at
> >msatran1@hotmail.com. I think it's an interesting variation, if not a
> >publishable adventure. (Unlike the previous foray into Naziism by Hero
> >Games, this one clearly features Hitler as a Villain, and therefore is
> >more politically safe) However, I like them...keep them.
>
> Sounds like fun. Actually, given your later comments on the Supreme
> Serpent, Armstrong or someone like him might actually be a good fit
> for that role with a little bit of a boost. Either him or Python.
This is something that I have already done with my campaigns use of
VIPER... well sort of. Early in the campaign, a PC who was a formal
Governement sponsered hero was given the job of setting up a 'division'
of the US marshall's office to deal with supers (IMC the Heroes were
among the very first supers in the world). I had backwritten that Primus
had been around, but only recently gotten the Cyberline off the ground.
I also ran the Golden avenger a little nastier than written: no mutants,
so his hatred was of all paranormals. The PC (The Marshall) basically
took over PRIMUS, and turned it into her agency (rather long adventure
there).
Golden Avenger left, taking about a third of the agency with him. They
stole a bunch of equipment, the Cyberline research and samples and
became the villian group Vengence. Later on (with his anti-paranormal
stance) he (and they) joined Genocide.
I'm shifting my world from standart 4 color to SF 4 color (a la Legion
of Super heroes) so I'm making some major changes. Recently a
dimensional rift thing 'borrowed' about 80% of the worlds super heroes.
VIPER decided the time was right and tried to conquer the US. They
almost succeeded. In losing most of thier agents equipment and resources
were used up and/or captured. The Supreme serpent was destroyed but a
number of agents and supers got away- (the biggest named ones being
Armstrong and Viperia).
They are going to form a small well equiped Merc unit, coalescing around
Armstrong. One of thier major targets is going to be Genocide (and
Vengence). They may actually turn out helpfull to the PCs on occasion.
- -Mhoram
- --
What is called glory, I think, is mostly the relief you feel after
you've fought and lived through battle without getting maimed.
- -Harry Turtledove Krispos Rising
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:38:31 -0600
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Subject: CHAR:Mastadon (was Fireman skills)
Here is the character I used the fireman information on.
Char: Mastadon
PID: Charlie Owens
STR 35(50) 25 100+ Disads:
DEX 15 15 15 DF:8' tall and hairy, NC, Noticed
CON 40 60 10 Public ID
BDY 14(15) 8 15 DNPC:Thomas Maciviegh 11-
INT 13 3 10 Psych Lim:Fear of Hieghts com, mod
EGO 10 - 20 Psych Lim: CAK
PRE 23 13 30 Vuln: 2xStun Fire
COM 10 - 15 Vuln: 1.5xBody Fire
PD 28(30) 21 10 Rep: Honorable Civic Hero 11-
ED 26(28) 18 5 Watched: Fire Dept. 11- aspow limited
SPD 3 5 15 Hunted: Fire using Villian 11- aspow
REC 15 - 5 Phys Lim: Can't easily enter many rooms
END 80 - infreq, slight
STN 54(55) 2 250 total
total 170
Powers/Skills
13 2lvls DI, 0 end, persistant(+1), always on (-1/2)
7 1 lvl Growth, 0 end, persistant(+1), always on (-1/2)
24 24rpd/24red DMG Resist
3 Bureaucratics 14-
3 Climbing 12-
1 Fam: Demolitions 8-
3 Paramedic 12-
2 PS: Fire/Rescue Firefighter 11-
3 Combat Driving 12-
2 KS: Building Codes 11-
2 KS: Hazardous Materials 11-
2 KS: Heat and Smoke related injuries 11-
3 TF: All Ground Vehicles, Artificial Breathing App.
2 WF: Small Arms group
3 Tactics 12-
1 Perk: Paramedics License
1 Perk: Fire Inspectors License
2 Contact: Fire Chief 11-
2 Contact: Fire/Rescue leader 11-
1 Favor: Fire/Rescue leader
80 total+ 170Char= 250 total
Background: Some people are born to be heros. This describes Charlie
Owens. A high school star Quarterback, A veteran decorated for valor and
heroism, and a member of the elite Fire/Rescue team of the city's fire
department.
During one extremely bad industrial fire (5 alarm), Charlie went in
with the squad leader(Thomas Maciveigh) and other team members into part
of the building to get several trapped people out. After locating the
trapped workers, the squad started out, when an explosion in another
part of the building caused the ceiling to collapse on the team. Charlie
was lucky and not caught under rubble.
It didn't even cross his mind to leave the others. He began to lift
the fallen ceiling rubble off the F/R squad and the workers, getting
them freed and to saftey. Soon only two were left, abadly injured worker
and Thomas. Charlie discover that a large beam had fallen on them, and
tried to lift it off. He kept straining to lift it off, vowing not to
give up until they were out.
Even he doesn't know exactly what happened next. He was straining at
the beam unable to lift it, then after another explosion that brought
the fire closer, he freely tossed it off the 2 trapped men, picked them
up easily, carried them outside, and collapsed from smoke inhalation.
He woke up on the way to the hospital 8 foot tall and super strong.
Later the City and Fire Dept. honored him for his heroics. His size
caused him to be moved off the F/R squad and into the inspectors dept,
though he still keeps in contact with them.
Description: Mastadon is Eight feet tall, with dark, thick hair covering
most of his body. He unsuccessfully tries to keep his hair and beard
trimmed. His friends tell him he gets his 5 o'clock shadow at noon. His
name came from the teasing of other firefighters. When reading a
magazine one came across a picture of a mastadon and joked "Hey remind
you of anyone?"
Notes: the WFs, Tactics and some of the Bureaucratics comes from his
army days. the rest are fire related.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:47:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Long!]
At 06:18 PM 12/14/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>At 01:10 PM 12/14/1998 -0600, Hudson, Robert wrote:
>> >7. Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest
>>info" on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States. Talk to Champions
>>players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in their
>>area, and include that information. For example, I know Shelley Mactyre has
>>done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on her website),
>>and I have some material for the latest Portland.
>>
>> Nope - got to come down *strong* against this one. This is really
>>an absurd level of detail, and it's going to be ignored/thrown out by
>>everyone who disagrees with the author's viewpoints on the 'local' Nest.
>>Pass on this one. [But see comments at bottom]
>
>I think this would be excellent, space permitting. We get the benefit of
>several different author/GM's creativity, several different takes on the
>same idea, in one product. As always, choose what you want, ignore or
>modify the rest. That is inevitable in a Hero product -- even the core
>rulebook -- and should not be used as an argument (at least, not as the
>sole argument) for excluding something.
I think you missed the point of Robert's objection. He doesn't want a
full list of all the US Nests, even if it's just a paragraph describing the
Nest Leader and another paragraph describing the size, character, and
practices of the Nest itself.
Not that the logic really holds; after all, for every thing that goes
into a sourcebook there will be someone who wants to change it. The point
of the above-succested listing would be to provide something for those who
don't already have their own ideas to work from.
>>> >8. Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal
>>> with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions).
>>>
>> Urk. I think this is a bit much too - no one is going to spend a
>>billion dollars on a weapon system to knock out the Champions. Adapting an
>>existing system maybe, but the idea of a development program for this
>>purpose is just silly. Spend your money finding out Secret Id's [Solitaire
>>is easy to crack, as is Jaguar - Seeker doesn't even have one, and neither
>>does Quantum] and just put a bullet in their heads when they step out of the
>>shower one morning.
>
>Um, I gotta go with Robert on this one. Every campaign will customize, and
>every campaign will choose a different set of things to ignore or modify.
>However, one of the most likely things to be dropped is the Champions
>themselves (in favor of home grown characters). Little point in creating
>Champions-specific weapons systems if those characters aren't in play.
Again, the point of the section is being missed. This isn't a study in
"this is how VIPER is dealing with the Champions, and you have to use the
Champions in this adventure." It's a look at "here's one more item in the
arsenal of VIPER for dealing with supers that tick them off."
And they're not, as a rule, the type to just put a bullet through the
brain of an enemy as said enemy steps out of the shower. They might do
that to an agent who's turned State's evidence, but the Champions? After
all those public humiliations, VIPER is going to want to publicly humiliate
them and show off their own power at the same time.
It's one thing to kidnap Samuel Johnson and threaten to kill him if
Quantum interferes with any more of VIPER's operations (been there, done
that, got the hospital bills, according to CU). It's another thing
altogether to develop a Metabolic Disruptor (BODY Drain), arm a Five-Team
with them, and make an example of her in front of the televised news media.
>Lots of material in a tightly integrated format -- bad.
>Lots of material in a modular, loosely woven format -- good.
The latter is definitely what I'm asking for in a VIPER 2nd Edition, as
well as what I'm providing in VOICE 2000.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:35:16 -0600
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!]
At 4:20 PM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote:
[No need to worry about my mocking anything you've said Bob - you're still
*well* in the reasoned discussion stage! If it comes off that way I'm
sorry.]
*******************
>If you mean Cyborgs Inc., I'm planning on using them in strong
connection with the Portland OR Nest in Cascade Champions. :-]
Bleah - you're welcome to them with my blessings!
>Count me as a major exception to this. I find that the corporation
writeups are extremely useful for both background and active gaming. In
fact, the early stages of my campaign use a lot of the scenario suggestions
from the Corporations sourcebook.
You're shaping up to be the exception to the rule then Bob - in the
time since the book came out, I am the *only* individual I've encountered
that actually bought the thing, and I frankly did it because I'm a
completist, not because there was loads of material in there that I found
useful.
>But not necessarily. Given an expansion of several pages in the
book, I'd consider it helpful to have one of those pages devoted to
reversing the perspective. Besides, there are tactics that VIPER can use
against villains (such as anonymously feeding information on them to the
authorities, including the PCs) that it might be reluctant to use against
heroes.
Why would it be reluctant to use this against heroes? Slap a few
headlines like "James Harmon III *is* Defender" across the tabloids with
documentary evidence and Defender ceases to be a problem. Pay a couple of
kids to say Seeker molested them and watch that popularity rating drop
through the floor. These are the *BAD* guys, right? Why would they have more
moral scruples in dealing with heroes [the enemy] than other villains [also
the enemy]?
>But why make someone buy a whole bunch of books when one will
suffice?
Well.... Because Hero will go out of business and fold up shop if we
don't?
>Hm. Do I get to summarily mock this part of your post? ;-]
Seriously, it's extremely hard to tell from the keyboard exactly what kind
of thing a GM is going to need. Some will needs lots of statistical
write-ups for every character, gadget, vehicle, and item; others will need
lots of story hooks and background material.
I really think the way to go here is something in the middle Bob -
the VIPER sourcebook was pretty well balanced in that regard, but I think
much more either way and you might as well just call the thing off.
>For one thing, I happen to be one GM who uses the Champions
Universe as nearly exactly as written as possible. I do change a few
things, such as stuff that's contradictory (like a good deal of the
background material in Enemies For Hire) or that strikes me as blatantly
illogical (like many of the special abilities for Genocide Pawns).
You do? Okay - you're my exception then, because you're the *only*
guy I've met in twelve years that did!
Personally, I think the 'Champions Universe' suffers the inevitable
consequences of being cobbled together from elements of twenty different
writer's personal campaigns and viewpoints - it's more than a touch
incoherent, downright silly in places, and suffers from a desperate need to
be visited by someone like Marvel's 'Scourge' who'll put a legion of loser
characters out of my misery. [Doesn't mean I don't love the game - but the
campaign world needs serious help IMO.]
>Fine, and after I cancel my campaign you can explain to my players
why you think that the difficulty I have in coming up with plots makes me
such a lousy GM that I don't deserve the position. As with many other
areas, Hero System GMs are rather sparse around these parts.
They're downright invisible in mine Bob - but like I said, it's a
personal prejudice. I don't - and certainly can't reasonably - expect
everyone to buy into it.
>If we limit the possibilities to those who can come up with
exciting, original stories all on their own, that situation isn't likely to
change. It's similar to the problem with getting new Hero System players, as
discussed in another thread; if we want more people to get involved, we need
to service the newbies, and those who have problems in various areas.
I can see the point, but I feel like presenting the new player or GM
with a volume of material as large as what it seems to me you're describing
is just as intimidating, and will probably have the same consequences as
presenting them with a game system that has the reputation for complexity
that Hero does - they'll turn elsewhere. I don't think the solution to
Hero's shrinking player base really lies with the rules or the supplements -
Rolemaster has us beat all hollow for complexity, and they attract new
players - but rather with the fact that people willing to make the effort to
*run* the game are becoming fewer and further between.
>Really, I do envy those who can come up with a fully fleshed-out
superhero universe with all-original stories on their own, and make them
work for a game that is not only viable but vibrant. Enemies books and
organization books are not for those GMs, as they can play just fine with
nothing but the rulebook (and maybe a genre book and/or some Ultimate
books). I don't have a problem with such GMs at all, and would love to play
under one some time.
>The problem is, these individuals are few and far between. I could
certainly come up with a fully fleshed-out world on my own, but weaving the
NPCs, organizations, and so forth into an ongoing campaign that lasts for
years like many others have done is beyond my ability.
It really isn't that hard Bob. To be honest, it sounds like your
biggest problem is trying to do too much. There's no need for a complete,
fleshed out world at the start of the game - heck, there may not be a need
for it at all depending on the needs of the players. Start small - it'll
grow on it's own, at it's own pace.
>Okay, maybe I should pack it in and give up the game, but then
there are some players who'd be doing without it in the meantime, not to
mention that these individuals would be less likely to buy the Fifth Edition
HSR when it's available, the various Ultimate books that apply to their
characters, and so forth. And sure, that's only three players, but if you
multiply that by as many GMs as probably have a similar problem you'll find
that limiting the number of scenario plotlines in published books is also
> limiting the growth of Hero.
>
I really have to disagree with the last statement there Bob - Hero's
growth [or lack thereof] has to do with a lot of factors, but the inclusion
or lack of inclusion of scenario plotlines is so far down the list that it
might as well not be on it.
Rob Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:20:19 -0600
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!]
> At 4:20 PM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> [No need to worry about my mocking anything you've said Bob - you're still
> *well* in the reasoned discussion stage! If it comes off that way I'm
> sorry.]
>
This is a re-send, I bounced last time.
> *******************
>
> >If you mean Cyborgs Inc., I'm planning on using them in strong
> connection with the Portland OR Nest in Cascade Champions. :-]
>
> Bleah - you're welcome to them with my blessings!
>
>
> >Count me as a major exception to this. I find that the corporation
> writeups are extremely useful for both background and active gaming. In
> fact, the early stages of my campaign use a lot of the scenario
> suggestions from the Corporations sourcebook.
>
> You're shaping up to be the exception to the rule then Bob - in the
> time since the book came out, I am the *only* individual I've encountered
> that actually bought the thing, and I frankly did it because I'm a
> completist, not because there was loads of material in there that I found
> useful.
>
>
> >But not necessarily. Given an expansion of several pages in the
> book, I'd consider it helpful to have one of those pages devoted to
> reversing the perspective. Besides, there are tactics that VIPER can use
> against villains (such as anonymously feeding information on them to the
> authorities, including the PCs) that it might be reluctant to use against
> heroes.
>
> Why would it be reluctant to use this against heroes? Slap a few
> headlines like "James Harmon III *is* Defender" across the tabloids with
> documentary evidence and Defender ceases to be a problem. Pay a couple of
> kids to say Seeker molested them and watch that popularity rating drop
> through the floor. These are the *BAD* guys, right? Why would they have
> more moral scruples in dealing with heroes [the enemy] than other villains
> [also the enemy]?
>
>
> >But why make someone buy a whole bunch of books when one will
> suffice?
>
> Well.... Because Hero will go out of business and fold up shop if we
> don't?
>
>
> >Hm. Do I get to summarily mock this part of your post? ;-]
> Seriously, it's extremely hard to tell from the keyboard exactly what kind
> of thing a GM is going to need. Some will needs lots of statistical
> write-ups for every character, gadget, vehicle, and item; others will need
> lots of story hooks and background material.
>
> I really think the way to go here is something in the middle Bob -
> the VIPER sourcebook was pretty well balanced in that regard, but I think
> much more either way and you might as well just call the thing off.
>
>
> >For one thing, I happen to be one GM who uses the Champions
> Universe as nearly exactly as written as possible. I do change a few
> things, such as stuff that's contradictory (like a good deal of the
> background material in Enemies For Hire) or that strikes me as blatantly
> illogical (like many of the special abilities for Genocide Pawns).
>
> You do? Okay - you're my exception then, because you're the *only*
> guy I've met in twelve years that did!
>
> Personally, I think the 'Champions Universe' suffers the inevitable
> consequences of being cobbled together from elements of twenty different
> writer's personal campaigns and viewpoints - it's more than a touch
> incoherent, downright silly in places, and suffers from a desperate need
> to be visited by someone like Marvel's 'Scourge' who'll put a legion of
> loser characters out of my misery. [Doesn't mean I don't love the game -
> but the campaign world needs serious help IMO.]
>
>
> >Fine, and after I cancel my campaign you can explain to my players
> why you think that the difficulty I have in coming up with plots makes me
> such a lousy GM that I don't deserve the position. As with many other
> areas, Hero System GMs are rather sparse around these parts.
>
> They're downright invisible in mine Bob - but like I said, it's a
> personal prejudice. I don't - and certainly can't reasonably - expect
> everyone to buy into it.
>
>
> >If we limit the possibilities to those who can come up with
> exciting, original stories all on their own, that situation isn't likely
> to change. It's similar to the problem with getting new Hero System
> players, as discussed in another thread; if we want more people to get
> involved, we need to service the newbies, and those who have problems in
> various areas.
>
> I can see the point, but I feel like presenting the new player or GM
> with a volume of material as large as what it seems to me you're
> describing is just as intimidating, and will probably have the same
> consequences as presenting them with a game system that has the reputation
> for complexity that Hero does - they'll turn elsewhere. I don't think the
> solution to Hero's shrinking player base really lies with the rules or the
> supplements - Rolemaster has us beat all hollow for complexity, and they
> attract new players - but rather with the fact that people willing to make
> the effort to *run* the game are becoming fewer and further between.
>
>
> >Really, I do envy those who can come up with a fully fleshed-out
> superhero universe with all-original stories on their own, and make them
> work for a game that is not only viable but vibrant. Enemies books and
> organization books are not for those GMs, as they can play just fine with
> nothing but the rulebook (and maybe a genre book and/or some Ultimate
> books). I don't have a problem with such GMs at all, and would love to
> play under one some time.
>
> >The problem is, these individuals are few and far between. I could
> certainly come up with a fully fleshed-out world on my own, but weaving
> the NPCs, organizations, and so forth into an ongoing campaign that lasts
> for years like many others have done is beyond my ability.
>
> It really isn't that hard Bob. To be honest, it sounds like your
> biggest problem is trying to do too much. There's no need for a complete,
> fleshed out world at the start of the game - heck, there may not be a need
> for it at all depending on the needs of the players. Start small - it'll
> grow on it's own, at it's own pace.
>
>
> >Okay, maybe I should pack it in and give up the game, but then
> there are some players who'd be doing without it in the meantime, not to
> mention that these individuals would be less likely to buy the Fifth
> Edition HSR when it's available, the various Ultimate books that apply to
> their characters, and so forth. And sure, that's only three players, but
> if you multiply that by as many GMs as probably have a similar problem
> you'll find that limiting the number of scenario plotlines in published
> books is also
> limiting the growth of Hero.
>
> I really have to disagree with the last statement there Bob - Hero's
> growth [or lack thereof] has to do with a lot of factors, but the
> inclusion or lack of inclusion of scenario plotlines is so far down the
> list that it might as well not be on it.
>
>
> Rob Hudson
>
>
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #96
****************************
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