Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 409
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 10:34 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #409
champ-l-digest Friday, June 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 409
In this issue:
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
Top 5 things
Re: Draining Innate abilities
Re: Top 5 things
Re: In Search of Web Page With Alternate Lifting Rules
Re: Top 5 things
Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Top 5 things
Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
RE: CHAR: Bigfoot
RE: CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: Draining Innate abilities
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 01:02:26 -0400
From: "Dale A. Ward" <daleward@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Greetings!
Terry Wilcox wrote:
>
> How many Newtons do you weigh?
Fig, Apple or Strawberry?
> What's your mass in slugs?
Massive slugs?!? eeeeEEEEeeeeeEEEEEeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...
> What's your metric astrological sign?
I was born under the sign of "Post No Bills"...
Dale Ward
**************************************
* Last night I lay in bed *
* looking up at the stars in the sky *
* and I thought to myself, *
* "Where the hell is the ceiling?!?" *
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:15:57 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
>Transfer:
> "A character with this Adjustment Power can temporarilly take points from
> an opponent's Characteristic or Power and add those points to one of his
> own Characteristics or Powers."
Lets take a look at Flash then shall we? I doubt anyone really thinks that
Flash won't affect themselves:
"A character with this Standard Power cant "flash" an opponent's senses
(usually normal sight)..."
>Personal Immunity:
> "This Advantage prevents the character from being affected by his own
> power."
The very existence of this advantage and the fact that Transformation
specifically states it will not work on the person with the power shows
that by default other powers work on yourself. I'm sorry, but while I
think it might be abusive, by the rules, you can turn any power on yourself
that is not prohibited, including Transfer. As a house rule I probably
would not let somone do so in my campaign, but you don't have any reason in
the RULES for saying it is not permissible.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
>>Transfer:
>> "A character with this Adjustment Power can temporarilly take points from
>> an opponent's Characteristic or Power and add those points to one of his
>> own Characteristics or Powers."
>
>Lets take a look at Flash then shall we? I doubt anyone really thinks that
>Flash won't affect themselves:
>"A character with this Standard Power cant "flash" an opponent's senses
>(usually normal sight)..."
Folks, this has gone around and around _days_ longer than it should. What
Rat's clearly meaning by 'can't' in this context is 'should not be permitted
to'. Yeah, it's a bad piece of phrasing, all too characteristic of his
rules fundamentalism, but pursuing that he's suggesting it's not physically
possible is both missing the point and beating a dead horse until it's goo.
Can we _please_ move on?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:15:15 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Top 5 things
OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
For me its simple enough:
1: Charges do not cost more than Reduced END cost (whether this be +1 for
autofire or the usual +1/2)
2: Area Effect Any have double the hexes, its pathetic as written
3: Reduce Change Environment, Images, and Darkness to no area, perhaps
charge more for the base cost, and then apply usual area effect rules to
them (yes, you can buy fog all the way out to Saturn but it STILL has no
effect on combat and is practically useless as a CE power).
4: Reduce the cost of Shrinking to 5 points per level like DI and Growth
(reducing the DCV bonus to +1 DCV per level).
5: A hard and fast rule on the limit to power that a Transformation can
give (active cost limit based on the amount total that can be rolled,
perhaps with a way to increase this like with Absorb, Aid, and Transfer).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:54:47 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: Draining Innate abilities
I'll tell you what. I want a way to make some Powers essentially
undrainable by most SFX. Most commonly (maybe even manditorily), this
would be used only with Always On Powers that are innate, but we can
name it whatever you want. These Powers would still be vulnerable to
the proper SFX, but normally immune. My examples of robots with Life
Support, etc, would be common examples of this Advantage.
If I can have this Advantage, I will agree that Drain is the proper
Power for removing even Innate Powers. All it needs are the proper
SFX, and some way to limit excessively broad SFX (and maybe reward
excessively narrow SFX).
If we can agree on that, we need go no further.
Filksinger
From: Juan Antonio Ramirez <tonio@prtc.net>
>
>
> David Nasset wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> > I don't see how the cost of Desolidification should affect the
cost of
> > turning a spirit into something clearly not a spirit.:)
>
> I do. That cost is how much the character "paid" to be a spirit...
so
> that's how much has to be "taken away" to make him NOT a spirit.
Then base the cost of Transformation upon the points of the target. I
do not see why turning a spirit to a human being should be based upon
the cost of turning a human being into a spirit, and not base the cost
of turning a human being to a statue based upon the cost of making a
statue into a human being.
> > >Transform is a silly mechanic for making a ghost solid.
> >
> > Drain's sillier, IMHO. I'm not certain why you think Transform
would be
> > silly. A spirit is not solid by definition; if you make it solid,
you
> > have transformed it into something else.
> >
>
> Yah, and if you shoot a wall with a big enough RKA, you transform it
into a
> hole.
True. However, you do not use Drain BODY for that purpose.
> > >I don't see why
> > >you being made of Mist is more Innate than the dimension shifter
is.
> >
> > It wouldn't necessarily be. Mist is merely an example of something
that
> > is, by its very nature, not solid. It has no "Desolidification
Power" to
> > Drain. A man who was simply in another universe to begin with
would be
> > equally immune to Drain, because he has no "Desolidification
Power" to
> > drain, either. To solidify him you would use XDim Movement,
preferably.
> >
>
> Um, aren't a loooot of superheros born with their powers?
Yes. That has little to do with it, however. You seem to misunderstand
the position. The Advantage has little to do with what you were born
with. It has more to do with your present physical composition.
> Innate (as in "innate", not "Innate (+1/2)") powers? By your
definition,
> Superman is immune to most (if not all) drains since all his powers
are part
> of who he is by virtue of being a Kryptonite.
Neither said nor implied. However, you couldn't drain him of being a
Kryptonian.
>"Draining" his, say, heat
> vision would be akin to "draining" HeliumGuy's Flight, or Misty's
Desolid.
You are either creating a straw man, or you don't understand the
concept. They are not at all similar, if Helium Guy's Flight is based
upon him being helium, or Misty's Desolid is based upon him being made
of something not solid. If they _turn into_ these things, that is a
Power. Otherwise, it is how physical laws work upon their physical
makup. That is something you cannot change without changing them into
something else.
> All three are "powers" only when viewed against human norm. Which is
the
> whole point. Powers and abilities cost points when they are
different
> (better) from the average human. All powers are "bought" because
they are
> something Average Joe doesn't have. So don't call it a "Drain
Desolid"...
> call it "Make Character More Normal With Respect to Solidity",
because in
> fact that's what a drain is (well, with the exception of stat
drain).
Well, I'm glad you agree that stats are different.
> If
> you were to create a campaign in a world where everybody was
naturally
> desolid, except for the PC's which come from a different world, then
sure,
> make Desolid undrainable, or actually, remove the Desolid power, and
> substitute with Become Solid, because now THAT's what's different
from the
> norm.
It has nothing to do with what is different from the norm. It has to
do with the composition of the target. You cannot Drain a gaseous
being's Desolid anymore than you can create a Drain Solid to make
people gaseous. Solidity isn't a power when it is part of your
physical composition. Neither is your density. Neither is your size.
Neither is the lack of solidity of a vapor, the lack of density of
helium, nor the size of large objects. These are not _powers_.
<snip>
> >
> > Which is exactly what I object to. Drain appears to me to be
completely
> > the wrong Power to change something's physical nature.
> >
>
> Why? Almost every power, well, at least a lot of other powers change
> something's physical nature! HKA, RKA, HA, and EB, at least when
based on
> energy, change something's physical nature. Teleport changes
something
> physical nature, depending on SFX either the environment or the
character.
Yes. Which is why all of these are better Powers to model changing the
physical makeup of a target than Drain, whenever they fit the change
involved.
> > There are many objects that are, simply by their physical
composition,
> > already something humans are not. Elephants are big. Helium is
lighter
>
> > than air. Mist is vaporous. Humans need 'Powers' to become these
things;
>
> So do Elephants, Helium and Mist, from a game-mechanics point of
view.
I cannot, as the rules are written, create any of these properly, from
a game-mechanics point of view.
> > Growth, Flight, or Desolidification, respectively.
> >
> > If an object is, by its very nature, already something (such as
'not
> > solid'), it isn't using a 'Power'. That is its physical nature.
There is
> > no 'Power' to Drain. Changing its physical composition so as to
make it
> > more like a human (such shrinking an Elephant, making helium
heavier
> > than air, or making mists hard) is _not_ a drain of a power.
>
> Well, it is. It is a Drain of a Power (that is, the power Drain
applied to
> the power Power). Maybe not a drain of a power (from an SFX point of
view),
> but what is and what is not a drain of a power (SFX) is defined by
SFX.
> Heck, I might have Tunneling defined as making whatever I'm
tunneling
> through less solid, or make it rot or decompose or whatever. That
doesn't
> mean I should buy Desolid UAO, or BODY Drain, or Transform... it's
still
> Tunneling, because of the mechanics. It might have a "transform",
"drain",
> or "desolid, uao" sfx, but it's still Tunneling.
> Similarly, making a ghost solid might seem like a "transform"... and
that's
> certainly the SFX it has, but the mechanics is clearly Desolid
Drain.
I will give you that, if you will give me a mechanic (not 'base it on
SFX, but a mechanic) to simulate Powers that are not normally subject
to a Drain, _unless the Drain has the proper SFX_.
> > It is a
> > fundamental change in its physical composition. Drain, IMO, is
most
> > definitely _not_ the Power to change the basic composition of an
object.
>
> As I said before... depending on SFX, a lot of powers can be said to
do
> that.
Granted. However, I have serious problems with Drain vs LS being used
to force robots to breathe. What does it do, make them temporarily
human?
> > That is my primary point. My other point is that making some
abilities
> > "Innate" would eliminate a variety of odd effects. Shrinking
elephants
> > via Drain Growth gives you a Power that shrinks anything so long
as it
> > is bigger than you, and shrinks it differently than Shrinking
already
> > does, giving you a strangely different Power.
>
> Nah, not really. Growth Drain removes a character's ability to be
larger
> than normal, regardless of whether that ability is on all the time,
innate,
> external, or whatever. That is the game mechanics of Growth Drain.
> Shrinking just makes someone smaller.
None of which changes any of the proceeding paragraph from being true.
> > As is often true, the SFX
> > of truly unusual Powers are never properly defined ("It uses flux
> > energy."), resulting in no proper way to tell if a Drain Desolid
works
> > on a character who is naturally made of mist, and, if it does,
doesn't
> > properly explain why it doesn't make clouds solid.
> >
> > Even worse is death. If you kill a ghost, then they turn solid. If
you
> > kill a helium life-form, it becomes heavy and falls to the ground.
If
> > you destroy a giant robot, the rubble shrinks to a pile of metal
the
> > size/mass of a human. If you blow the head off a human-sized steel
robot
> > (Density Increase), all the steel in his body becomes as light as
human
> > flesh. Kill Godzilla, and he deflates like a balloon, kill a
spider and
> > it grows to larger than most dogs.
> >
>
> That one's easy... just say it doesn't happen. Is that unbalancing
in any
> way whatsoever? Isn't it logical that any power bought always on
remains
> after death?
Not really. And commonly not true in most comics.
>(At least for some time, depending on SFX... a fire-based
> damage shield might burn away in a couple of hours/days/whatever,
while
> growth stays "forever", and maybe a psychic power goes away in a
matter of
> minutes...)
>
> >
>
> > If an object, _by its physical composition_, has qualities that
humans
> > lack,
>
> A lot, if not most, superheros fit this description... and I'd still
say
> they could be drained (in addition to Drained).
If a _power_ makes it so, I'd agree. If it is just physically a part
of them, I probably wouldn't.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 03:21:10 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
At 12:15 AM 6/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
>have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
>they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
>
>For me its simple enough:
>
>1: Charges do not cost more than Reduced END cost (whether this be +1 for
>autofire or the usual +1/2)
>2: Area Effect Any have double the hexes, its pathetic as written
>3: Reduce Change Environment, Images, and Darkness to no area, perhaps
>charge more for the base cost, and then apply usual area effect rules to
>them (yes, you can buy fog all the way out to Saturn but it STILL has no
>effect on combat and is practically useless as a CE power).
>4: Reduce the cost of Shrinking to 5 points per level like DI and Growth
>(reducing the DCV bonus to +1 DCV per level).
>5: A hard and fast rule on the limit to power that a Transformation can
>give (active cost limit based on the amount total that can be rolled,
>perhaps with a way to increase this like with Absorb, Aid, and Transfer).
1. An increase in the cost of STR.
2. A de-coupling of movement speed from SPD.
3. Make combat skill levels more expensive.
4. Make Killing Attacks cost more than Normal Attacks.
5. Include rules for extremely long-range powers, such as global teleport
and supersonic speed.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:24:43 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: In Search of Web Page With Alternate Lifting Rules
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
> In Search of Web Page with Alternate Lifting Rules. Goes very
> in-depth with lifting.
I did something like that for an article I did for Digital Hero. I
started with the assumption that Normal Characteristic Maxima was not
intended to be the top human possibilities, then went on to explain
the two biggest anomalies in the theory that real world humans reach
25 and fictional humans reach 30. Since one of those anomalies was
lifting strength, and the other BODY, that might be what you wanted.
I don't know if it is still up at Digital Hero. If not, I should have
a copy on my hard drive.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:44:48 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
At 12:15 AM 6/18/99 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
>have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
>they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
>
1. Fix Hand Attack to be 5 active points per die. (We know this has been
done.)
2. Provide for the ability to create a slippery surface, perhaps as part of
an expanded Change Environment. (CE has been expanded; I'm hoping it can do
slippery stuff.)
3. Revise the Spirit Rules, and include them, Computers, Automatons, &
Vehicles in an official version of the Incomplete Character rules. (Steve
Long tells us this there wasn't room for Spirits, and that the Incomplete
rules were beyond the scope of the 5th edition, but both could appear in
future expansions.)
4. Revise Regeneration cost & structure, allowing for regeneration from
death, regenerating limbs, etc. (This has been done.)
5. Define Linked so as to end the Great Linked Debate. (We know Linked has
been revised. Who knows if the debate will end?)
It looks like most of my wishes have been granted. My biggest worry is what
will be thrown newly out of whack, as Hand Attack was in the 4th edition.
Oh, and whether there will be good editing and proofreading - this has
never been a Hero strong point.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:26:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
At 10:45 PM 6/17/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
>Other Names: Meh-Teh, Momo, Omah, Qah-lin-me, Sasquatch, Skunk Ape,
>Yeh-teh, Yeren, Yeti, Yowie
Don't forget lumberjacks. And Howard Stern. ;-]
>Rumors:
>The rumors surrounding hairy bipeds is legion. Many reports connect them
>with UFO sightings and indicate that some HBs may be some form of
>extraterrestrial. Some HBs seem to be unnaturally immune to bullets as
>well, and ignore high-powered rifle fire as well as close-range blasts
>from shotguns. Finally, some HBs have the uncanny ability to simply
>vanish in even the slightest undergrowth, while others have been said to
>disappear into thin air.
The "immunity" to firearms may simply be an incredible toughness and
high pain threshold (immensely high CON, BODY, and STUN).
>Designer's Notes:
>Are hairy bipeds real? The jury is still out on that one. The gorilla is
>certainly real, but it was considered a myth up until about 125 years ago
>or so. The mountain gorilla wasn't discovered by Europeans until early in
>this century and as recently as 1992 large mammals were still be
>discovered in such places as the jungles of Vietnam (a deer and a species
>of oxen). If the hairy biped is real, there has been some argument that
>it is a form of primate called Gigantopithecus. The primate stood upwards
>of 10 feet in height and generally fits the description of the average
>Bigfoot. It should be pointed out that the forests of Oregon and
>Washington can get very thick and it could be very easy for a large animal
>to hide within the depths. Downed planes have been lost in the woods of
>Washington.
Those same forests are credited, in part, with the success of D. B.
Cooper.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:46:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
At 12:15 AM 6/18/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
>have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
>they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
Mine:
1. Remove the "free Energy Blast" (punch/squeeze damage) from TK, and
reduce its cost to 1:1 STR. (Squeeze damage could be an "add-on" for a
+1/4 Advantage.)
2. Charges is worth an extra -1/2 Limitation (or +1/2 less Advantage)
on a Power that normally does not cost END.
3. All of the Powers and Power Modifiers currently found in the Base,
Vehicle, Computer, Automaton, and Equipment sections near the end of the
rulebook are moved into the main character construction chapter, with the
rest of the rules for building these constructs immediately following
character construction.
4. Add +5 points per 2X DNPCs.
5. SPD rounded down to the next lower integer does not count toward the
single Figured Characteristic that may be "bought down." (This would be
rarely used in superheroic games, but good for the occasional heroic-level
or talented-normal game.)
>For me its simple enough:
>
>1: Charges do not cost more than Reduced END cost (whether this be +1 for
>autofire or the usual +1/2)
I think that a note about the comparative costs should be enough. If
the listing under Charges points out that a certain level exceeds the
Advantage bonus for 0 END, nobody will *want* to exceed it.
>2: Area Effect Any have double the hexes, its pathetic as written
I'll agree there; it does become pretty pathetic at its current level,
compared to the other AE versions.
>3: Reduce Change Environment, Images, and Darkness to no area, perhaps
>charge more for the base cost, and then apply usual area effect rules to
>them (yes, you can buy fog all the way out to Saturn but it STILL has no
>effect on combat and is practically useless as a CE power).
I think some combat effects (not major, but no longer minor) are being
rolled into CE.
>4: Reduce the cost of Shrinking to 5 points per level like DI and Growth
>(reducing the DCV bonus to +1 DCV per level).
Sensible, but logistically difficult in other ways.
>5: A hard and fast rule on the limit to power that a Transformation can
>give (active cost limit based on the amount total that can be rolled,
>perhaps with a way to increase this like with Absorb, Aid, and Transfer).
Yes, this would be a nice thing....
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:49:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
At 03:21 AM 6/18/1999 -0400, Scott C. Nolan wrote:
>At 12:15 AM 6/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>OK Champions 5th is comin out, and we all know a little about what it will
>>have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
>>they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
[snip Chris' list]
>
>1. An increase in the cost of STR.
Bleh. This has been cycled through numerous times. It's not necessary
to change the cost of virtually every single HERO System character across
the board, to fix an imbalance that is primarily theoretical.
>2. A de-coupling of movement speed from SPD.
While logical, I think it'd be hard to implement.
>3. Make combat skill levels more expensive.
I don't see how this is a big problem.
>4. Make Killing Attacks cost more than Normal Attacks.
Don't they already?
>5. Include rules for extremely long-range powers, such as global teleport
>and supersonic speed.
I think this is what the new MegaScale Advantage is for.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >Other Names: Meh-Teh, Momo, Omah, Qah-lin-me, Sasquatch, Skunk Ape,
> >Yeh-teh, Yeren, Yeti, Yowie
>
> Don't forget lumberjacks. And Howard Stern. ;-]
I'm trying to forget Howard Stern.
> >Rumors:
> >The rumors surrounding hairy bipeds is legion. Many reports connect them
> >with UFO sightings and indicate that some HBs may be some form of
> >extraterrestrial. Some HBs seem to be unnaturally immune to bullets as
> >well, and ignore high-powered rifle fire as well as close-range blasts
> >from shotguns. Finally, some HBs have the uncanny ability to simply
> >vanish in even the slightest undergrowth, while others have been said to
> >disappear into thin air.
>
> The "immunity" to firearms may simply be an incredible toughness and
> high pain threshold (immensely high CON, BODY, and STUN).
Sure. Although some don't even blink when shot. One gets the impression
that some HBs are 'out of phase' with the 'normal' universe and are
partially desolid.
> >Designer's Notes:
> >Are hairy bipeds real? The jury is still out on that one. The gorilla is
> >certainly real, but it was considered a myth up until about 125 years ago
> >or so. The mountain gorilla wasn't discovered by Europeans until early in
> >this century and as recently as 1992 large mammals were still be
> >discovered in such places as the jungles of Vietnam (a deer and a species
> >of oxen). If the hairy biped is real, there has been some argument that
> >it is a form of primate called Gigantopithecus. The primate stood upwards
> >of 10 feet in height and generally fits the description of the average
> >Bigfoot. It should be pointed out that the forests of Oregon and
> >Washington can get very thick and it could be very easy for a large animal
> >to hide within the depths. Downed planes have been lost in the woods of
> >Washington.
>
> Those same forests are credited, in part, with the success of D. B.
> Cooper.
Who vanished in what? 1973? Something like 20-25 years ago. Jumped out
of a 747 with quite a haul in cash. Jumped over the forests of (uhm...)
Oregon I think and was never found. It has been argued that he might be
dead.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:06:49 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
At 10:45 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>[should I offer up Mothman and the Chupacabras as well?]
>
>BIGFOOT
>
After Steve Austin, I thought this might be the android Bigfoot from _The
Six Million Dollar Man_. And how about that Mars lander? :-)
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:14:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >[should I offer up Mothman and the Chupacabras as well?]
> >
> >BIGFOOT
> >
>
> After Steve Austin, I thought this might be the android Bigfoot from _The
> Six Million Dollar Man_. And how about that Mars lander? :-)
Amazingly enough, this was a coincidince. I've recently managed to find
some nice cryptozoology books and decided to have a little fun.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:15:22 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: CHAR: Bigfoot
] At 10:45 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
] >[should I offer up Mothman and the Chupacabras as well?]
] >
] >BIGFOOT
] >
]
] After Steve Austin, I thought this might be the android
] Bigfoot from _The
] Six Million Dollar Man_. And how about that Mars lander? :-)
]
] Bill Svitavsky
Yea, and what about Bigfoot's sidekick, Wildboy?
Logically, this might be followed by Isis, Shazam, Witchy-Poo, SpeedBuggy
and Space Ghost.
Or not. Your call.
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: RE: CHAR: Bigfoot
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> Yea, and what about Bigfoot's sidekick, Wildboy?
>
> Logically, this might be followed by Isis, Shazam, Witchy-Poo, SpeedBuggy
> and Space Ghost.
>
> Or not. Your call.
Uhm... not. Although Space Ghost would be cool. Not that I have any idea
what he's like or how to write him up.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:33:44 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: Draining Innate abilities
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
> At 05:00 PM 6/17/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
> >From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
<snip>
> >So what if someone wants a perfectly reasonable power that is much
too
> >expensive/cheap? Tell them, "Gee, that's too bad?" Do you change
the
> >point values? How do you maintain balance?
>
> By GMing well. If it's "perfectly reasonable" then I don't worry
about the
> cost.
But I do, because I don't GM that way. Why? A variety of reasons. I
don't always have perfect players, or even complete control over my
game (such as to be able to kick someone out without losing the entire
campaign, or even worse, friends), or various other reasons. I don't
want to have to argue with someone who doesn't think Power X is
reasonable and demands that I take it away from Player X because he
doesn't like the power, its game effects, or the fact that Player X
got 50 pts extra for free. Or argue with someone who bought a 30 pt
Power and is expected to reduce the overall power of the character to
balance things, because the SFX make it equal to a 60 pt Power. Or
argue with some guy who insists Power X is perfectly reasonable, and
demands that I make it cheap enough for his character.
And even if I did have that kind of control (I will generally cancel a
campaign rather than go through that kind of garbage again), I don't
want the game to require it, if there exists a fairly straightforward
way to prevent it. An Advantage that boils down to "Power cannot be
taken away by most SFX of Drain" seems a reasonable way to do it.
> >Frankly, it doesn't sound as if you worry too much about balance.
This
> >isn't necessarily a bad thing; many of the best games I have been
in
> >were hideously unbalanced. However, I have found that giving too
much
> >weight to SFX without backup by Powers/Advantages/Limitations and
point
> >balancing destroys point balance, and if my games are going to be
> >unbalanced, I prefer for it to be a deliberate decision. Whenever
> >possible, if balance can be improved by adding in new
> >Powers/Advantages/Limitations, or changing old ones, then I think
that
> >is a good thing.
>
> There is a difference between unbalanced and unplayable. I play
RPGs to
> have a good time. I don't let the rules get in the way of that. I
guess
> I never make a deliberate decision to BALANCE the game.
I have found that many otherwise reasonable players _need_ rules to
keep them in bounds, when it comes to some constructs. And some
otherwise reasonably good GMs need them as well. I don't want a GM to
have to make those kinds of decisions to run a game, and for the most
part, HERO doesn't require them too often. All I want is a mechanism
for properly pricing powers that are generally not going to be
drainable by most SFX.
<snip>
> >
> >"I know your Power is perfectly reasonable, and doesn't really harm
the
> >game, but the SFX make it immune to this Power over here cheaply.
Since
> >there is no Advantage that allows this, I'm going to ban your
> >construct."
>
> That sentense makes no sense. I don't have Innate in my game,
therefore
> the SFX will not be immune to all Powers.
The vast majority of SFX will not allow you to steal the size from an
elephant, the intangibility from an intelligent fog, or the lack of
needing to breathe of a robot. This means that these powers either get
more protection from drain, via SFX, than most other, similar powers,
or they get drained for stupid reasons. I have played in a number of
games like this, and, frankly, they sucked.
Or you find a way to make people pay for being immune to a Power when
using most SFX. Which I have found quite playable, without any of the
hassles I found playing it your way.
>Someone will come along with the
> counter-Power. I'm one of those GMs who will give you enough rope
to hang
> yourself. If you make a combat monster, I will make sure there are
> occasional combats that he cannot shine in, or more precisely, that
a
> combat will be stacked so that other characters shine. No die roll
fudges,
> just judicious placement of the opponents to minimize the combat
monster's
> effectiveness.
I prefer to have rules that mostly maintain play balance on their own.
If I didn't, I'd play FUDGE or something.
<snip>
>
> This is where we are disagreeing. Don't take the following
paragraph the
> wrong way. I don't mean to be pedantic.
>
> Drain is the name of HERO Power construct which alters the number of
Active
> Points in a target's specified HERO Power construct. The ghost has
a HERO
> Power construct, Desolidification, which makes it able to move
through
> walls and be immune to most HERO Combat effects. This HERO Power
construct
> defines the ghost's physical nature. To alter its physical nature,
you
> have to remove the HERO Power construct which defines said nature.
Whether
> you Drain the active points from the construct, or remove the
construct
> with Transform, the net result is a change to the ghost's character
sheet:
> Desolification is no longer active/there.
I have decided that I am fighting the wrong battle here. While I think
the mechanism for doing this is cleaner by making some powers immune
to Adjustment powers, say via Innate or some similar Advantage, I
would be willing to let Drain be the Power to remove powers, even
Innate ones. But I still want a mechanic that gives me what Innate
does, vs most SFX of Drain.
> >There are many objects that are, simply by their physical
composition,
> >already something humans are not. Elephants are big. Helium is
lighter
> >than air. Mist is vaporous. Humans need 'Powers' to become these
things;
> >Growth, Flight, or Desolidification, respectively.
>
> Wrong. Power constructs define the abilities of all things in a
HERO game.
> Does a Hobbit/halfling have to have one level of shrinking,
Persistent,
> Always On? I say "No." The only reason to include shringing in the
> halfling racial construct is to give it bonuses to DCV, etc. Height
and
> weight are special effects.
And the fact that he doesn't have this power is why I want it to be
immune to being drained from him.
> HERO would be a better system if all characters started as nothing
and all
> of the default powers had to be bought. I do believe a standard
human
> costs 145 points or so to be able to breathe, see, hear, etc.
And would have died long ago. I like the idea, too, but it is much
harder to work than you might think. Take it from someone who tried
it.
> >If an object is, by its very nature, already something (such as
'not
> >solid'), it isn't using a 'Power'. That is its physical nature.
There is
> >no 'Power' to Drain. Changing its physical composition so as to
make it
> >more like a human (such shrinking an Elephant, making helium
heavier
> >than air, or making mists hard) is _not_ a drain of a power. It is
a
> >fundamental change in its physical composition. Drain, IMO, is most
> >definitely _not_ the Power to change the basic composition of an
object.
>
> Yes, it is using a HERO Power. Right, "changing its physical
composition
> so as to make it more like a human is _not_ a drain of a power,"
however,
> "changing its physical composition so as to make it more like a
human is a
> [HERO Power Drain] of a [HERO Power]."
>
> That is what I am arguing.
I'll agree to that, so long as I get my mechanism.
> >That is my primary point. My other point is that making some
abilities
> >"Innate" would eliminate a variety of odd effects. Shrinking
elephants
> >via Drain Growth gives you a Power that shrinks anything so long as
it
> >is bigger than you, and shrinks it differently than Shrinking
already
> >does, giving you a strangely different Power.
>
> You never did answer how you apply "equal" levels of Shrinking and
Growth
> at the same time. If you use Shrinking UAO on an elephant, the tiny
> elephant does not lose any hexes of extra reach that if had while
normal
> sized. If you use the Transform, it costs much more.
And if you want to Shrink elephants and humans and cats, then the need
to have Shrinking, UAO _and_ Drain Growth ups the cost past Transform.
_And_ you get a Power that makes elephants weaker as they shrink, but
not humans. And other anomalies as bad as the one you mentioned.
> >As is often true, the SFX
> >of truly unusual Powers are never properly defined ("It uses flux
> >energy."), resulting in no proper way to tell if a Drain Desolid
works
> >on a character who is naturally made of mist, and, if it does,
doesn't
> >properly explain why it doesn't make clouds solid.
>
> Bad GM. No biscuit. Don't allow not properly defined SFX. Or, any
power
> which is not sufficiently SFXed is affected by things that are
constructed
> better.
You could be in a tournament, without time to make certain of the SFX
of everything. Or you could be using characters from various
suplements, which often have no SFX. Or which do, but what the SFX are
capable of is indeterminate, because they aren't real.
And your last statement only make sense if you are talking about the
SFX of a target power, not the SFX of the Drain. Can "flux energy"
Drain the Desolidification from fog? Dimensional shifting? Molecular
decoupling?
> >Even worse is death. If you kill a ghost, then they turn solid. If
you
> >kill a helium life-form, it becomes heavy and falls to the ground.
If
> >you destroy a giant robot, the rubble shrinks to a pile of metal
the
> >size/mass of a human. If you blow the head off a human-sized steel
robot
> >(Density Increase), all the steel in his body becomes as light as
human
> >flesh. Kill Godzilla, and he deflates like a balloon, kill a spider
and
> >it grows to larger than most dogs.
>
> I don't think you'll like this answer either, but death is also a
SFX.
> Besides there is alread a BBB method to deal with this. You could
always
> buy Godzilla with Uncontrolled Growth if you really care about what
happens
> after death. An Uncontrolled Power will outlive its owner.
Far to expensive for the result desired.
> >If an object, _by its physical composition_, has qualities that
humans
> >lack, then changing it so it loses those qualities is changing its
> >physical composition. Drain is _not_ the correct power for this.
>
> That last sentense I will agree with. Drain is merely _a_ correct
HERO
> Power for that. :-) It is also preferrable in some instances.
I'll grant you that, if you will give me a _mechanism_ for defining
"Powers that are impossible to Drain via most SFX." Not, "It depends
upon SFX", because SFX should only have _minor_ effects, and that can
be major, and because that answer has ruined one game I was in, and I
have no intention of accepting it as an answer. It isn't good enough.
David Nasset, Sr.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #409
*****************************
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:15 PM